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The expectations of nationalisation – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,230
edited 2:45PM in General
The expectations of nationalisation – politicalbetting.com

Britons tend to expect that bills would be cheaper if utilities were nationalised, following Andy Burnham saying nationalisation would "absolutely be an option" if he was PMWaterCheaper: 39%Similar: 22%More expensive: 14%ElectricityCheaper: 39%Similar: 20%More expensive: 16%

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Comments

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,840
    First like Our Andy.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106
    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,403
    Burnham could subsidise water and electricity more to keep costs down if they are subsidised but that would require more tax to fund. Note only Tory voters are realistic enough not to expect cheaper bills if those utilities are nationalised
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,725
    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    The fare structure isn't!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,944
    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    Taken in-house rather than nationalised.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,819
    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    The efficiency savings of LNER's nationalisation should not only allow the subsidies to be unwound but also flip it into contributing to the Treasury.

    Shouldn't it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,492
    Water *might* be cheaper over an extended period of time, if only because outright fraud is less likely.

    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    A freer market in electricity, which drove prices down over time, is entirely possible to bring about.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,492
    Cancellation just became rather more unlikely.

    The second joint international contract was awarded today for the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the next-generation fighter aircraft development programme between Italy, Japan and the UK.
    https://www.edgewing.com/article/gcap-contract-edgewing0

    It will be interesting to see if that now attracts any other partners (eg Germany or Canada).
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,802
    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,916
    37 ways Andy Burnham could raise £4.7bn
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2026/07/03/andy-burnham-tax-rises-47bn/

    Dan Neidle's outfit but not the small business CGT collection plan they were talking about the other day.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,505
    edited 3:13PM
    Nationalisation is not the answer in this case. It's the pricing mechanism based on gas.

    Energy strategy is a bet on the future price of gas. Miliband knows that gas prices are going to go ever up, whilst renewables (and presumably nuclear) costs are going to go ever down. Thus CfDs and RAB-based contracts are going to get absolutely and relatively cheaper and cheaper.


    So will Great British Energy, if it comes about, hire the expertise to trade in CfDs and RAB-based contracts. Or more likely civil servants will be taken to the cleaners by the same financial engineers that are profiting now.

    If gas prices fall, and British industry and customers are protected from any benefit, there will be a further impact on the British economy and impacts on poorer customers and on affordability. The CfDs and the RAB contracts are fixed – that is the point of them – and this means that British electricity costs are largely locked in until 2040 and beyond. Britain is going to be a high-cost electricity country for at least another 15 years on the current policy path
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,483
    edited 3:13PM
    Foss said:

    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    The efficiency savings of LNER's nationalisation should not only allow the subsidies to be unwound but also flip it into contributing to the Treasury.

    Shouldn't it?
    "At issue for LNER appears to be the encumbrance of the rolling stock leasing and maintenance costs it pays to Agility Trains, one of the highly profitable coterie of train leasing companies, the one part of the industry that has avoided renationalisation under the government’s plans."

    (From elsewhere)

    "The figure for Total rolling stock expenditure appears to have grown from 73 million in 2015 to 423 million in 2024-25 although about 125 million seems average for earlier years, so 2015-16 be a outlier year for some reason."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,944
    Foss said:

    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    The efficiency savings of LNER's nationalisation should not only allow the subsidies to be unwound but also flip it into contributing to the Treasury.

    Shouldn't it?
    Nope. The issue was that the private companies kept on bidding too aggressively and were not making enough money to meet the terms of the contract. Now, that is obviously a problem with the franchise model - there should have been bigger exit penalties - but the fundamentals stay the same when the services are taken in-house.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,860
    Good afternoon everyone.

    It's great that TSE remembered his password :wink: .
  • eekeek Posts: 34,368

    37 ways Andy Burnham could raise £4.7bn
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2026/07/03/andy-burnham-tax-rises-47bn/

    Dan Neidle's outfit but not the small business CGT collection plan they were talking about the other day.

    Clearly you didn't read the article as it's item 3 in the list of 37 ways.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,081
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    "East Midlands Railway's (EMR) new Class 810 Aurora trains are facing rolling delays, cancellations, and overcrowding. Built by Hitachi Rail, the fleet is hampered by slow delivery rates, technical issues with brakes and doors, unreliable toilets, and "hissing" air-conditioning dampers."

    And one ran into the back of another killing the driver.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,368
    edited 3:19PM
    Taz said:

    East Coast main line is pretty good now it’s nationalised.

    I don't think ECML has been bad anytime in the 35 years I've regularly travelled on it.

    The usual reason for delays is things outside their control such as someone stealing wires or suicides.

    Granted first class isn't as good as in the olden days when the 225 had actual kitchens for cooking for first class but it's still better than most other options.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106
    Icarus said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    "East Midlands Railway's (EMR) new Class 810 Aurora trains are facing rolling delays, cancellations, and overcrowding. Built by Hitachi Rail, the fleet is hampered by slow delivery rates, technical issues with brakes and doors, unreliable toilets, and "hissing" air-conditioning dampers."

    And one ran into the back of another killing the driver.
    Shitachi in action. No wonder they lost the contract for new metro trains.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 60,262
    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,860
    edited 3:24PM
    Nigelb said:

    Cancellation just became rather more unlikely.

    The second joint international contract was awarded today for the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP), the next-generation fighter aircraft development programme between Italy, Japan and the UK.
    https://www.edgewing.com/article/gcap-contract-edgewing0

    It will be interesting to see if that now attracts any other partners (eg Germany or Canada).

    I think there are opportunities, but perhaps not related to the bigger bits of the aircraft.

    I can see Germany getting something around weapon systems, as the more of those the better plus they are relativeyl detached, and perhaps assembly of a Luftwaffe order, and MBDA has a footprint in Germany - which would make it more straightforward organisationally.

    The critical path is aircraft for Japan by 2035 because China.

    I'm not sure about Canada, but it could be the type of aircraft that could replace their F35s in their environment.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,404
    Detailed analysis of Reform's crypto plans that they're now hiding, and of what Harborne gets for giving them so much money: https://www.thenerve.news/p/reform-crypto-bill-website-policy-nigel-farage-stablecoin-bank-of-england-stack-trump
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386
    MattW said:

    Good afternoon everyone.

    It's great that TSE remembered his password :wink: .

    In the words of Shaggy It Wasn't Me.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,229
    As on most polls other than voting intention it's striking how similar Tory and Reform thinking often is
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 776

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386
    edited 3:39PM
    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 776

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are procrypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    nods in Dogecoin
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,404

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    Useful tip. Do you have any specific recommendations? Asking for a friend.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,590
    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 776

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    winks in Monero
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 776

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Two years on, Britons are divided on the result of the 2024 election, with 35% feeling it would be better if the Tories had been re-elected

    Better if the Conservatives had won: 35% (+2 from 4 July 2025)
    Better that Labour won: 34% (+1)


    Well, that's something...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,860
    edited 3:56PM
    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run. My prediction is that the pubs will cathc up to what the law requires, and then the seating will continue with appropriate adjustments.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,623
    Both Djokovic and Sinner through in the last minute or so.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,623
    Both Djokovic and Sinner through in the last minute or so.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    edited 3:59PM
    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    In addition, during COVID, pavement seating was encouraged.

    None of the pubs along there are blocking the path either.



    Is the pub in question, I *think*

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,623

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    34% of course is the percentage who in fact voted Labour at the election.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106
    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    Looks,like the Green councillor is a prick who expects gormless plod to do his bidding.

    He’s not unique. We’ve seen councillors of all persuasions use Plod when it suits.

    Abuse of power by local politicians is nothing new and should be rejected. Personally I’d blame Plod for,going along with it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 67,017
    Nationalisation is a shit idea.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,260

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,615
    Nigelb said:

    Water *might* be cheaper over an extended period of time, if only because outright fraud is less likely.

    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    A freer market in electricity, which drove prices down over time, is entirely possible to bring about.

    So what “outright fraud” has occurred in the water industry? That’s quite a serious allegation and I am sure you have public sources you can link to to explain your reasoning
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386
    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,802
    Icarus said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    "East Midlands Railway's (EMR) new Class 810 Aurora trains are facing rolling delays, cancellations, and overcrowding. Built by Hitachi Rail, the fleet is hampered by slow delivery rates, technical issues with brakes and doors, unreliable toilets, and "hissing" air-conditioning dampers."

    And one ran into the back of another killing the driver.
    I call it as I see it.

    There was an engineer on the train and he was moving up and down the carriages. It had that new train smell and the in-carriage information service only came on at Loughborough.

    The configuration has basically a coach and a half of First Class seats - perfectly comfortable and nice to have at-seat charging for every seat which was working fine. Three and a half coaches of Standard - we travelled on the furst day the service resumed fully to London after the Elstow crash and it was busy but I've known it a lot worse.

    EMR simply need more carriages which presumably cost a fortune - if they could run 10 car trains on all services it would help.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106

    Nigelb said:

    Water *might* be cheaper over an extended period of time, if only because outright fraud is less likely.

    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    A freer market in electricity, which drove prices down over time, is entirely possible to bring about.

    So what “outright fraud” has occurred in the water industry? That’s quite a serious allegation and I am sure you have public sources you can link to to explain your reasoning
    I wouldn’t hold your breath !
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,741

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I use cash now and again and always like to have a wad in case of emergencies , I don't meet any of our criteria
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,314

    Nigelb said:

    Water *might* be cheaper over an extended period of time, if only because outright fraud is less likely.

    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    A freer market in electricity, which drove prices down over time, is entirely possible to bring about.

    So what “outright fraud” has occurred in the water industry? That’s quite a serious allegation and I am sure you have public sources you can link to to explain your reasoning
    I understood him to mean that stealing water is far harder than stealing electricity.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 776
    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    Crypto’s greatest achievement was recreating the entire financial system, only with fewer regulations and more rug pulls.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106
    A Senior Saudi delegation has rocked up to the funeral of former Iranian head honcho Mr Khameini

    In the words of Brass Eye, I’m sure the US and warmonger Israelis are ‘ This is the one thing we didn't want to happen.“
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,314

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    I must admit surprise that it has lasted as long as it has.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    Which side of the fence will Michael Saylor be on 🤔
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,860

    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    In addition, during COVID, pavement seating was encouraged.

    None of the pubs along there are blocking the path either.



    Is the pub in question, I *think*
    I think the pavements eating goes back 2 decades, though in hanging shelves for glasses on the fence side I think they are pushing it - as customers will be loitering in the pathway, blocking it.

    There are 3 pubs - the City Barge, the Bell & Crown, and the Bull's Head. The BH had a pavement license anyway, so it is the other two; the BH was dragged in because their license was up for renewal.

    We may have slightly differing views on "unobstructed". I want 4m (absolute minimum 3m) as per national guidelines width with either marked edges or "keep the pubbers off the highway" ornamental fencing. But the Definitive Map and Statement may have something to say.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    Which side of the fence will Michael Saylor be on 🤔
    Some crypto is pump and dump scams.

    Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. Much easier to carry than a suitcase of cash.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,702
    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    Which side of the fence will Michael Saylor be on 🤔
    In the last five years, Michael Saylor has made $400m selling Microstragy stock.

    It's almost like he doesn't believe his own Bitcoin price prognostications.
  • TazTaz Posts: 29,106

    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    Which side of the fence will Michael Saylor be on 🤔
    Some crypto is pump and dump scams.

    Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. Much easier to carry than a suitcase of cash.
    Friends of my wife’s are evangelical about XRP.

    I ask them what it’s for and what value it gives. They just read some posts on social media and got a kraken account.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    I must admit surprise that it has lasted as long as it has.
    I never thought we'd live in a world where POTUS and a potential UK PM would pimp crypto.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,690

    37 ways Andy Burnham could raise £4.7bn
    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2026/07/03/andy-burnham-tax-rises-47bn/

    Dan Neidle's outfit but not the small business CGT collection plan they were talking about the other day.

    It's an article to cut out and keep. Not only sane suggestions but also a clear picture for the less numerate like me of where the half crowns are coming from to keep the treasury in the manner to which it is accustomed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,386
    Sir Lewis Hamilton is the greatest sportsman ever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,492
    Hamilton really is good.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,250
    Go Lewis!!! 🏎️
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,615
    edited 4:21PM
    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run. My prediction is that the pubs will cathc up to what the law requires, and then the seating will continue with appropriate adjustments.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    4m wide seems very wide for a pathway. Presumably that to allow (for example) two wheelchair users to pass each other, but wouldn’t it be better to have passing bays? Otherwise I doubt that any riverside path in the country will be compliant with your demands
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,690

    Taz said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.
    t
    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    BTC is actually completely the opposite of a Ponzi, also the job of a regulator I'd say in relation to crypto is to ensure that if someone holds 1 BTC with an exchange they do in fact have 1 BTC. Whether the value is 10 cents or $1M is irrelevant imv.
    One day the bottom will fall out of crypto, some people will have made a lot of money and more will have lost everything.
    Which side of the fence will Michael Saylor be on 🤔
    Some crypto is pump and dump scams.

    Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. Much easier to carry than a suitcase of cash.
    Serious question: When Trump sold Trumpocrypto did he take payment only in what people like me call 'money' or could you make payment in other forms of crypto?
  • eekeek Posts: 34,368
    Who was saying that Ferrari were going to have problems at Silverstone?

    Hamilton has just qualified first for the Sprint race...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,615
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Water *might* be cheaper over an extended period of time, if only because outright fraud is less likely.

    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    A freer market in electricity, which drove prices down over time, is entirely possible to bring about.

    So what “outright fraud” has occurred in the water industry? That’s quite a serious allegation and I am sure you have public sources you can link to to explain your reasoning
    I understood him to mean that stealing water is far harder than stealing electricity.
    What difference does ownership make to the ability to steal water?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,702
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    There is no reason whatsoever for electricity generation to be publicly owned. If I want to build a gas fired power station, or build some solar panels or whatver, then I should be allowed to, and I should be competing to sell to the grid like anyone else.

    Now, there is a good case for some government oversight in this market to ensure diversity of supply, because the free market solution today might be -say- 100% natural gas, but that introduces unacceptable risks to total UK electricity production in the case of (say) war in the Middle East. But -by and large- if someone wants to build a power generation plant and to compete to sell electricity to the grid, they should be free to do so.

    Where there is less obviously room for competition is in the ownership of the wires that deliver water, gas and electricity to your home. That doesn't mean they need to be publicly owned. But it does mean there is a need for regulation to ensure that services are delivered to standard and at a reasonable rate.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,601
    I'm not necessarily a free-marketeer but I agree wholeheartedly with what the man said in the header.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,690

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 21,404

    Nationalisation is a shit idea.

    What was the first big nationalisation? Henry VIII’s dissolution of the monasteries?

    Jumping ahead a few centuries… Was France’s nationalisation of Renault in 1945, as a punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis, a shit idea?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,590
    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    You do know the conservatives were utterly beaten in 2024 and see that level of buyers remorse is surprising
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345
    So, not first then?

    Work really gets in the way of more important things.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,492
    eek said:

    Who was saying that Ferrari were going to have problems at Silverstone?

    Hamilton has just qualified first for the Sprint race...

    Hamilton was, for a start, and he meant it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    In addition, during COVID, pavement seating was encouraged.

    None of the pubs along there are blocking the path either.



    Is the pub in question, I *think*
    I think the pavements eating goes back 2 decades, though in hanging shelves for glasses on the fence side I think they are pushing it - as customers will be loitering in the pathway, blocking it.

    There are 3 pubs - the City Barge, the Bell & Crown, and the Bull's Head. The BH had a pavement license anyway, so it is the other two; the BH was dragged in because their license was up for renewal.

    We may have slightly differing views on "unobstructed". I want 4m (absolute minimum 3m) as per national guidelines width with either marked edges or "keep the pubbers off the highway" ornamental fencing. But the Definitive Map and Statement may have something to say.
    I've not seen it so crowded there, that you couldn't get through, even on the best days. Unlike the pubs by Hammersmith bridge, where the crowds are solid.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,492
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    There is no reason whatsoever for electricity generation to be publicly owned. If I want to build a gas fired power station, or build some solar panels or whatver, then I should be allowed to, and I should be competing to sell to the grid like anyone else.

    Now, there is a good case for some government oversight in this market to ensure diversity of supply, because the free market solution today might be -say- 100% natural gas, but that introduces unacceptable risks to total UK electricity production in the case of (say) war in the Middle East. But -by and large- if someone wants to build a power generation plant and to compete to sell electricity to the grid, they should be free to do so.

    Where there is less obviously room for competition is in the ownership of the wires that deliver water, gas and electricity to your home. That doesn't mean they need to be publicly owned. But it does mean there is a need for regulation to ensure that services are delivered to standard and at a reasonable rate.
    The argument for public ownership of the grid itself is more one of national security than economic - which the current structure more or less acknowledges.
    There's room for government to be involved in generation, too - limited involvement only though. There is, as you say, no justification for ownership of the system.

    Water privatisation was an enormous and costly failed experiment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    There is no reason whatsoever for electricity generation to be publicly owned. If I want to build a gas fired power station, or build some solar panels or whatver, then I should be allowed to, and I should be competing to sell to the grid like anyone else.

    Now, there is a good case for some government oversight in this market to ensure diversity of supply, because the free market solution today might be -say- 100% natural gas, but that introduces unacceptable risks to total UK electricity production in the case of (say) war in the Middle East. But -by and large- if someone wants to build a power generation plant and to compete to sell electricity to the grid, they should be free to do so.

    Where there is less obviously room for competition is in the ownership of the wires that deliver water, gas and electricity to your home. That doesn't mean they need to be publicly owned. But it does mean there is a need for regulation to ensure that services are delivered to standard and at a reasonable rate.
    Away with your reasonableness. This isn't reasonablepoliticalbetting.com.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,192

    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    You do know the conservatives were utterly beaten in 2024 and see that level of buyers remorse is surprising
    Is it that surprising? Really?

    There's presumably a fairly strong correlation between the 34% who voted Labour and the 34% who are happy that Labour won.

    What there has been, particularly from the Reform-inclined, is lots of anger from the losers of 2024.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,623
    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    Virtues?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,690

    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    You do know the conservatives were utterly beaten in 2024 and see that level of buyers remorse is surprising
    34% of people voted for the government. The same number now think it's better that Labour won rather than the other lot. That seems high to me given that everyone is cool towards the government, for good reason. And it's not as if the polling shows people flocking to the Tories. I think the figures in the polling are bad all round, except perhaps for Burnham if he has some luck.

  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,623

    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    You do know the conservatives were utterly beaten in 2024 and see that level of buyers remorse is surprising
    Is it that surprising? Really?

    There's presumably a fairly strong correlation between the 34% who voted Labour and the 34% who are happy that Labour won.

    What there has been, particularly from the Reform-inclined, is lots of anger from the losers of 2024.
    There are lots of people who voted for other parties who wanted Labour to replace the Tories.

    Plus, did you notice the Labour DK figure?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,590

    algarkirk said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Since people can attribute to a Tory government from 2024-2026 any virtues they wish to imagine, and this government is woefully lacking in vision and narrative and nearly everyone is cool towards it those figures are not good for the Tories.
    You do know the conservatives were utterly beaten in 2024 and see that level of buyers remorse is surprising
    Is it that surprising? Really?

    There's presumably a fairly strong correlation between the 34% who voted Labour and the 34% who are happy that Labour won.

    What there has been, particularly from the Reform-inclined, is lots of anger from the losers of 2024.
    The poll is directly Sunak v Starmer so Sunak is marginally ahead today after losing a devastating election in 2024
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,916
    I may be the last PBer to have this epiphany but I had reason to look up Chris Whitty, the Chief Medical Officer, and it struck me that Keir Starmer's style is based on Boris at those 3-handed Covid press conferences during the pandemic, with the suit and slight air of detachment from his speech before inviting questions from reporters. I'm not sure what the betting implications are, if any.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 64,091
    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    My personal theory on Bitcoin was that it was invented by some bored maths geeks at Fort Meade as a trap for terrorists and the like.

    Bit like how BCCI was run for years so that the US intelligence could track who was using it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,802
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    There is no reason whatsoever for electricity generation to be publicly owned. If I want to build a gas fired power station, or build some solar panels or whatver, then I should be allowed to, and I should be competing to sell to the grid like anyone else.

    Now, there is a good case for some government oversight in this market to ensure diversity of supply, because the free market solution today might be -say- 100% natural gas, but that introduces unacceptable risks to total UK electricity production in the case of (say) war in the Middle East. But -by and large- if someone wants to build a power generation plant and to compete to sell electricity to the grid, they should be free to do so.

    Where there is less obviously room for competition is in the ownership of the wires that deliver water, gas and electricity to your home. That doesn't mean they need to be publicly owned. But it does mean there is a need for regulation to ensure that services are delivered to standard and at a reasonable rate.
    I'm NOT advocating for public ownership of utilites by any stretch but the current arrangement does not encourage competition and the pricing structure does not deliver value for either domestic or commercial customers.

    The cartelisation and the driving out of the market of most of the smaller cheaper suppliers has been extremely disadvantageous to those wanting fairer prices and proper competition. We need to encourage the smaller suppliers back into the market and that means challenging EDF, British Gas, Scottish & Southern and the other big suppliers and if necessary forcing them to get out of parts of the residential market if they cannot or will no offer power at fair prices.

    I appreciate water is more difficult to manage but we see the likes of Thames Water allegedly pumping raw sewage into rivers and you wonder why people get angry. Thirty years and more ago, I campaigned alongside a group called Surfers Against Sewage and one of their number stood as an LD candidate in a Cornwall County Council election (1993 I think) and he thrashed the local Tory incumbent who stood up at a public meeting and tried to tell a sceptical audience how wonderful South West Water were.

    MY experience is you can advance all the theories you like about the failures and inadequacies of nationalisation and public ownership but if people see private companies doing no better and charging higher prices you can understand why returning these activities to public ownership will have support.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,916

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    During the dot com boom I suggested our major security headaches were drunk developers and bribery. Turns out I was wrong and we were tanked by incompetent management.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    LOL. Its actually an interesting question whether you can steal an incorporeal moveable in Scots law but thankfully this point did not occur to the defence.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,860
    edited 5:11PM

    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run. My prediction is that the pubs will cathc up to what the law requires, and then the seating will continue with appropriate adjustments.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    4m wide seems very wide for a pathway. Presumably that to allow (for example) two wheelchair users to pass each other, but wouldn’t it be better to have passing bays? Otherwise I doubt that any riverside path in the country will be compliant with your demands
    I promise not to take you down a rabbit hole but I'll put a bit of information on the bone !

    We have a disease in this country of taking pedestrian space down to the absolute minimum, which makes using footpaths unpleasant when there is a fair amount of foot traffic, and that causes conflict which no one wants. The attitude is nasty, and small minded, and I hate it.

    But we have several different recommended widths (Inclusive Mobility, LTN 1/20 and others), depending on volume, transport mode, and purpose. As a matter of principle, the space on a public highway belongs to the public, not to a private business who want to put their stuff on it for their own benefit. Landowners are always trying to do that, and they need to be less selfish. 4m is roughly where it is for a high foot fall environment, and I am making it slightly wider than minimum because using a footpath includes stopping to take in the view, to sit on a bench for a rest, and so on, which I think are common in Strand-on-the-Green.

    The required width for a mobility aid to travel safely and comfortably is 1.5m width unobstructed, since the things themselves are up to about 1.0m, sometimes 1.2m, and extra width is required simple eg wheelchairs require width for hands outside to do wheeling. For two way that is 3.0m, minimum. And I don't accept lamp posts, sign posts, pedestrian cages, litter bins, cross pathway advertising hoardings where phone boxes used to be, Horse's f*cking Brobdingnagian phone masts, and all the rest as not being obstructions; they should be off the clear footway - but that is a slightly different tack !

    On passing places, I reject the idea out of hand - except for special circumstances such as a pre-existing constraint. We build our normal carriageways for vehicles to be 5.5m width, so two can pass, except where eg we need traffic calming because many drivers cannot control themselves. The principle is precisely the same for footpaths and footways - imo if we think it through, that is a very basic, unarguable implication of Equality Law. Why should we make wheelchair users use passing spaces in everyday travel, when we do not do so for people who are less marginalised, and the facilities for pedestrians cost such little money?

    We had an interesting debate the other week about Delivery Robots, which I have been feeding back as "expect serious resistance if you try to prevent these without a very carefully argued case". The association has a new Chairman, who did a very interesting presentation about developing values and a strategy for their centenary, here - provocative, but not especially radical:

    https://youtu.be/2ohCmQgUYx0?t=590
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,388
    Nigelb said:



    Why anyone imagines electricity would be is frankly bizarre.
    Government is already responsible for much of what determines the pricing.

    Its a really capital intensive business and govt can borrow the cheapest. Many countries have state owned companies doing this.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,505

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Are the LibDems indecisive?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,690
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    LOL. Its actually an interesting question whether you can steal an incorporeal moveable in Scots law but thankfully this point did not occur to the defence.
    That must be what, in English law with its great clarity, is known as a 'chose in action'. Neither term in intelligible to any normal person I suppose. You can steal them in England. When in Scotland I shall count the intangible spoons.

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,265
    Battlebus said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Are the LibDems indecisive?
    We will have a think, then meet up to discuss, send out the minutes for review, and get back to you. Probably.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,802
    Battlebus said:

    Who would have thought this after a landslide labour win in 2024

    Buyers remorse ?

    https://x.com/i/status/2073068984371429717

    Are the LibDems indecisive?
    NO, we quite rightly view the choice of Labour and Conservative Governments as analogous to having the options of either being drowned or burned alive.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,615
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run. My prediction is that the pubs will cathc up to what the law requires, and then the seating will continue with appropriate adjustments.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    4m wide seems very wide for a pathway. Presumably that to allow (for example) two wheelchair users to pass each other, but wouldn’t it be better to have passing bays? Otherwise I doubt that any riverside path in the country will be compliant with your demands
    I promise not to take you down a rabbit hole but I'll put a bit of information on the bone !

    We have a disease in this country of taking pedestrian space down to the absolute minimum, which makes using footpaths unpleasant when there is a fair amount of foot traffic, and that causes conflict which no one wants. The attitude is nasty, and small minded, and I hate it.

    But we have several different recommended widths (Inclusive Mobility, LTN 1/20 and others), depending on volume, transport mode, and purpose. As a matter of principle, the space on a public highway belongs to the public, not to a private business who want to put their stuff on it for their own benefit. Landowners are always trying to do that, and they need to be less selfish. 4m is roughly where it is for a high foot fall environment, and I am making it slightly wider than minimum because using a footpath includes stopping to take in the view, to sit on a bench for a rest, and so on, which I think are common in Strand-on-the-Green.

    The required width for a mobility aid to travel safely and comfortably is 1.5m width unobstructed, since the things themselves are up to about 1.0m, sometimes 1.2m, and extra width is required simple eg wheelchairs require width for hands outside to do wheeling. For two way that is 3.0m, minimum. And I don't accept lamp posts, sign posts, pedestrian cages, litter bins, cross pathway advertising hoardings where phone boxes used to be, Horse's f*cking Brobdingnagian phone masts, and all the rest as not being obstructions; they should be off the clear footway - but that is a slightly different tack !

    On passing places, I reject the idea out of hand - except for special circumstances such as a pre-existing constraint. We build our normal carriageways for vehicles to be 5.5m width, so two can pass, except where eg we need traffic calming because many drivers cannot control themselves. The principle is precisely the same for footpaths and footways - imo if we think it through, that is a very basic, unarguable implication of Equality Law. Why should we make wheelchair users use passing spaces in everyday travel, when we do not do so for people who are less marginalised, and the facilities for pedestrians cost such little money?

    We had an interesting debate the other week about Delivery Robots, which I have been feeding back as "expect serious resistance if you try to prevent these without a very carefully argued case". The association has a new Chairman, who did a very interesting presentation about developing values and a strategy for their centenary, here - provocative, but not especially radical:

    https://youtu.be/2ohCmQgUYx0?t=590
    A lot there.

    But just to focus on the passing places. Let’s say that you have a riverside path that is 5m wide. I’m guessing you need about 2.5m to accommodate a table and two chairs.

    But under your approach that is unacceptable in case there is a scenario where two wheelchair users need to pass each other. So the vast majority of people don’t get to enjoy the path.

    My approach represents a reasonable accommodation; create a passing place so wheelchairs don’t lose the ability to pass each other, but also enable to space to be shared by others. But apparently that is so unacceptable as to be “rejected out of hand”
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,505

    MattW said:

    This pub furniture on the Thames path in Strand-on-the-Green is a story that could go on a bit, as it is culture war plus local councillors who really do not like each other, and local politics in Chiswick is quite vigorous anyway. I lived on Park Road down there for about 3 years in the early 2000s, in a slightly expensive but very enjoyable one bedroom flat.

    (One note: take care not to confuse your Hiltons. I think the protagonist is Alistair Hilton, who is claiming the Green Councillor set the police on him and to my eye overegging his pudding a little - it could go legal, with Adrian Hilton, who is in the debate but is I think the former "Archbishop Cranmer" blogger.)

    The basic issue is about unlawful obstructions (the pub outdoor tables and chairs) on a public highway - the Thames Path, which here is either a Public Footpath, or an Adopted Highway in the relevant places. Two pubs, as 'landowners', seem to feel that that, and that they have been doing it for some years, means they should be able to continue to do it without a pavement license.

    The local Conservative Councillor (and the Telegraph and the Standard and GB News) have weighed in in support of the pubs (and their customers who like sitting on the Thames Path), and it was a Green Councillor who made a report to ask that it be looked at, around accessibility for less mobile pedestrians to Pass and Repass along the Thames Path unobstructed.

    Given my penchant for removing obstructions from public highways so mobility aids can use them, it will be clear where I stand - as long as the path is fully accessible (and there are endless technicalities about how wide it is, and what type of highway it is in each place) and easily useable, they can put their tables there provided there is a license and no obstruction. IMO here the clear path should be 4m wide.

    The Council Officers were abrupt in their demands for removal, and after a word from the local councillor have now backed down to say "you can keep your tables whilst we thin about it), which is how it should have been in the first place.

    The various bits of media are trying to make this about authoritarian Councils and Councillors banning outside drinking (which is afaics a lie, not that that will stop them), and police vs freedom of speech (around Hilton's twitter comments).

    This could run and run.

    All the pubs are recommended. I used to go on riverside dates down there.

    In addition, during COVID, pavement seating was encouraged.

    None of the pubs along there are blocking the path either.



    Is the pub in question, I *think*

    Seems to be a different pub but the issues are the same. There is a confusion between RoW, licencing and outright ownership of the strip of land. It'll be an expensive issue if it goes to court. Councils have very deep pockets if they want to take the issue further.

    https://www.gbnews.com/news/council-row-riverside-drinking-ban-locals-force-labour-council-back-down
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    Yep, it was very much the latter option. I don't want to go too deep into the grisly details but there was significant violence with a large Toblerone.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,590
    World Cup betting odds on Sky

    Who are the favourites for the World Cup? What are the odds on an England win?

    Let's be honest, we all know the answer to the first question in the heading above. Anyone who watched their borderline magical dismantling of Sweden will be in little doubt as to France's status as World Cup favourites.

    Yes, their midfield is arguable not among the best in the competition and their defence is certainly not infallible.

    But the simple presence of five attacking players in their squad who many count among the top 10 on the planet means that opposing teams will likely have to do something special if they are to overcome Didier Deschamps' side.

    Well, the bookies certainly agree, with Polymarket placing their chances of clinching the trophy for a third time at 33%, with SkyBet offering odds of 15/8.

    Next is Argentina, with a 19% shot and 4/1 odds, followed by Spain on 13% and 11/2.

    Fourth favourites are England, with an estimated 7% chance and odds of 10/1. Brazil are also given a 7% shout, but with odds of 11/1.

    Of the remaining viable options, Portugal are at 6%, Mexico (England's next opponents) on 3% along with the USA and Morocco.

    Colombia and Norway are given a 2% chance, Belgium and Switzerland both 1%, with the remaining teams all considered to have a less-than-1% prospect of an unlikely triumph.


  • boulayboulay Posts: 9,150
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    Yep, it was very much the latter option. I don't want to go too deep into the grisly details but there was significant violence with a large Toblerone.
    Could have been worse, might have been a pineapple.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,698

    Nationalisation is a shit idea.

    What was the first big nationalisation? Henry VIII’s dissolution of the monasteries?

    Jumping ahead a few centuries… Was France’s nationalisation of Renault in 1945, as a punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis, a shit idea?
    Monasteries doesn’t really work as they were not run under new owners, the institutions were dissolved and the assets stripped and given to the King to dispose as he thought fit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345
    boulay said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    a

    Sweeney74 said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    Why would an "unabashed free marketeer" be against people using cash?

    Cash is only used by tax evaders, drug dealers/smackheads, and wider criminals.

    I have learned this from my job.
    I assume you're against bitcoin* for similar reasons

    *other providers are available, your money is at risk, check T&Cs for more details
    Yes, cryptocurrency is a great evil in the world.

    No wonder Farage & Trump are pro-crypto.

    Part of my job involves dealing with financial crimes and if I wanted to rip off the poor via a Ponzi scheme it would look like crypto.
    Bitcoin is terrible for crime.

    Far too traceable.

    There are much better “coins” for fraud, drug dealing and terrorism.
    I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin. It wasn't especially subtle involving a fair bit of violence and threats of worse. The extent to which the transactions that followed could be traced and explained to the jury rather made me wonder if this is the best our criminal fraternity can do.
    "I did what I think was Scotland's first theft of bitcoin" - nice :-)

    Obligatory XKCD - https://xkcd.com/538/
    Yep, it was very much the latter option. I don't want to go too deep into the grisly details but there was significant violence with a large Toblerone.
    Could have been worse, might have been a pineapple.
    To the best of my recollection no pizzas were abused in the course of this crime.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,505
    edited 5:42PM
    stodge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    On train tickets, as we all know, if you can book a particular train a month in advance, you can find some very reasonable fares. Mrs Stodge and I did first class from Derby back to London last week on one of the new EMR Aurora trains - very comfortable and they kept coming by with free refreshments and my first thought was it would be rude not to...

    The problem was electricity is the supply is effectively a cartel which, while not a monopoly, functions like one and is the end result of private provision in many instances. This is the argument for and against competition - yes, you can get competition but market forces often dictate a small cartel ends up with complete control. Could we forcibly break up EDF, British Gas and the others?

    As for water, someone can tell me I'm wrong but you still have no choice - I have Thames Water, even if I thought Severn Trent were better, I couldn't move to Severn Trent to supply my water in London - now water isn't like electricity or gas, I know, it's more liquid for a start, but we don't really have competition and a market for all the claims from some.

    There is no reason whatsoever for electricity generation to be publicly owned. If I want to build a gas fired power station, or build some solar panels or whatver, then I should be allowed to, and I should be competing to sell to the grid like anyone else.

    Now, there is a good case for some government oversight in this market to ensure diversity of supply, because the free market solution today might be -say- 100% natural gas, but that introduces unacceptable risks to total UK electricity production in the case of (say) war in the Middle East. But -by and large- if someone wants to build a power generation plant and to compete to sell electricity to the grid, they should be free to do so.

    Where there is less obviously room for competition is in the ownership of the wires that deliver water, gas and electricity to your home. That doesn't mean they need to be publicly owned. But it does mean there is a need for regulation to ensure that services are delivered to standard and at a reasonable rate.
    I'm NOT advocating for public ownership of utilites by any stretch but the current arrangement does not encourage competition and the pricing structure does not deliver value for either domestic or commercial customers.

    The cartelisation and the driving out of the market of most of the smaller cheaper suppliers has been extremely disadvantageous to those wanting fairer prices and proper competition. We need to encourage the smaller suppliers back into the market and that means challenging EDF, British Gas, Scottish & Southern and the other big suppliers and if necessary forcing them to get out of parts of the residential market if they cannot or will no offer power at fair prices.

    I appreciate water is more difficult to manage but we see the likes of Thames Water allegedly pumping raw sewage into rivers and you wonder why people get angry. Thirty years and more ago, I campaigned alongside a group called Surfers Against Sewage and one of their number stood as an LD candidate in a Cornwall County Council election (1993 I think) and he thrashed the local Tory incumbent who stood up at a public meeting and tried to tell a sceptical audience how wonderful South West Water were.

    MY experience is you can advance all the theories you like about the failures and inadequacies of nationalisation and public ownership but if people see private companies doing no better and charging higher prices you can understand why returning these activities to public ownership will have support.
    They are not 'suppliers'. The stuff comes through distribution systems and the money is divvied up based on reciprocal contracts or other bits of financial engineering. The weak point is usually billing as those systems depend on the accuracy of the information provided.

    One of the concerns is that if prices get too high, consumers and businesses simply stop paying. And then all sorts of contracts start to unwind. Think 2008 GFC in micro.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,345

    World Cup betting odds on Sky

    Who are the favourites for the World Cup? What are the odds on an England win?

    Let's be honest, we all know the answer to the first question in the heading above. Anyone who watched their borderline magical dismantling of Sweden will be in little doubt as to France's status as World Cup favourites.

    Yes, their midfield is arguable not among the best in the competition and their defence is certainly not infallible.

    But the simple presence of five attacking players in their squad who many count among the top 10 on the planet means that opposing teams will likely have to do something special if they are to overcome Didier Deschamps' side.

    Well, the bookies certainly agree, with Polymarket placing their chances of clinching the trophy for a third time at 33%, with SkyBet offering odds of 15/8.

    Next is Argentina, with a 19% shot and 4/1 odds, followed by Spain on 13% and 11/2.

    Fourth favourites are England, with an estimated 7% chance and odds of 10/1. Brazil are also given a 7% shout, but with odds of 11/1.

    Of the remaining viable options, Portugal are at 6%, Mexico (England's next opponents) on 3% along with the USA and Morocco.

    Colombia and Norway are given a 2% chance, Belgium and Switzerland both 1%, with the remaining teams all considered to have a less-than-1% prospect of an unlikely triumph.


    I fear that Mexico will end England's dreams on Monday morning but as soon as they leave their fortress at the Azteca they will be toast.
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