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Labour’s share of the vote in Makerfield – politicalbetting.com

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  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,102
    kinabalu said:

    Anybody (if they're a punter as well as a pundit) who reckons Makerfield will be close should consider lumping on REF. You can get better than 7 on Betfair.

    I hadn’t realised Reform were at such long odds.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,396

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".


    Kitty Donaldson
    @kitty_donaldson

    In Makerfield there is a sense of voters having made their minds up at the start of the campaign, a Labour source said, with Reform candidate Rob Kenyon’s unearthed social media remarks not moving the dial:

    “I don’t know that it matters that much to the people voting Reform”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/2063588877965636073
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,756

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.
    Trouble with that is £30 is meagre compensation for the country falling off a cliff.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,254

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".


    Kitty Donaldson
    @kitty_donaldson

    In Makerfield there is a sense of voters having made their minds up at the start of the campaign, a Labour source said, with Reform candidate Rob Kenyon’s unearthed social media remarks not moving the dial:

    “I don’t know that it matters that much to the people voting Reform”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/2063588877965636073
    They're not voting Rob Kenyon, they're voting Reform. They're not voting Labour, they're voting Burnham.

    (Cute, if I do say so myself, but is it true?)
  • eekeek Posts: 33,926

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".


    Kitty Donaldson
    @kitty_donaldson

    In Makerfield there is a sense of voters having made their minds up at the start of the campaign, a Labour source said, with Reform candidate Rob Kenyon’s unearthed social media remarks not moving the dial:

    “I don’t know that it matters that much to the people voting Reform”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/2063588877965636073
    The question with Reform voters is not who they will vote for, it's will they turn out and vote..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.

    That’s the bit Casino always misses when optimising his otherwise wisely pitched betting strategy here.

    You need to put a cash value on the happiness you will get from certain outcomes, or the opposite, and then factor that into your NEV. Hence I tend to bet against the LibDems because if they do badly my bet comes off and I have money to spend, and if they do well then the value to me of the resulting happiness cancels out the adverse financial consequences.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,949

    Trump has total meltdown on Meet the Press.

    Fair play to Welker - top fine job. Why can't more of them push him into the corner where he implodes because reality isn't how he imagines it is.





    Acyn
    @Acyn

    Trump has a meltdown and ends the interview

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/2063635651082478066

    He's ludicrous. I am bewildered that the US takes him even vaguely seriously.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,756

    kinabalu said:

    Anybody (if they're a punter as well as a pundit) who reckons Makerfield will be close should consider lumping on REF. You can get better than 7 on Betfair.

    I hadn’t realised Reform were at such long odds.
    Yep. They opened at 2.8 and have drifted to 7.2. That's huge if it's close.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450
    DavidL said:

    Trump has total meltdown on Meet the Press.

    Fair play to Welker - top fine job. Why can't more of them push him into the corner where he implodes because reality isn't how he imagines it is.





    Acyn
    @Acyn

    Trump has a meltdown and ends the interview

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/2063635651082478066

    He's ludicrous. I am bewildered that the US takes him even vaguely seriously.
    That they’ve elected him twice having seen what happened the first time really beggars belief. It would be like Brits voting for Brexit and then later voting into office the same guy who missold it to us.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anybody (if they're a punter as well as a pundit) who reckons Makerfield will be close should consider lumping on REF. You can get better than 7 on Betfair.

    I hadn’t realised Reform were at such long odds.
    Yep. They opened at 2.8 and have drifted to 7.2. That's huge if it's close.
    But it’s not. On PB those who understand politics have backed Burnham from the start, whereas our now banned colleague is really the only one who thinks Reform might still win.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450
    kinabalu said:

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.
    Trouble with that is £30 is meagre compensation for the country falling off a cliff.
    That just tells us you’ve missized your bet by failing to assess the actual NEV to you of those adverse political outcomes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450
    eek said:

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".


    Kitty Donaldson
    @kitty_donaldson

    In Makerfield there is a sense of voters having made their minds up at the start of the campaign, a Labour source said, with Reform candidate Rob Kenyon’s unearthed social media remarks not moving the dial:

    “I don’t know that it matters that much to the people voting Reform”

    https://x.com/kitty_donaldson/status/2063588877965636073
    The question with Reform voters is not who they will vote for, it's will they turn out and vote..
    The lesson of the locals is the opposite - propensity to vote among current Reform voters is actually high, and the question is whether Labour leaning supporters will turn out and vote.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,551
    edited 7:03PM
    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,840

    Trump has total meltdown on Meet the Press.

    Fair play to Welker - top fine job. Why can't more of them push him into the corner where he implodes because reality isn't how he imagines it is.





    Acyn
    @Acyn

    Trump has a meltdown and ends the interview

    https://x.com/Acyn/status/2063635651082478066

    His orange makeup on his face looks different somehow. Like there's even more on him than usual.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,756
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Anybody (if they're a punter as well as a pundit) who reckons Makerfield will be close should consider lumping on REF. You can get better than 7 on Betfair.

    I hadn’t realised Reform were at such long odds.
    Yep. They opened at 2.8 and have drifted to 7.2. That's huge if it's close.
    But it’s not. On PB those who understand politics have backed Burnham from the start, whereas our now banned colleague is really the only one who thinks Reform might still win.
    Is my feeling too. But there are plenty of 'it's close' takes around. Albeit not being supported with £££ given the big Reform price.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,396

    Tom Nichols
    @RadioFreeTom
    ·
    2h
    Emotionally unstable man goes on paranoid, babbling rant.

    Somewhere in that suit, he has a small card with the codes to 1500 strategic nuclear weapons.

    https://x.com/RadioFreeTom/status/2063654813821268011
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,756
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.
    Trouble with that is £30 is meagre compensation for the country falling off a cliff.
    That just tells us you’ve missized your bet by failing to assess the actual NEV to you of those adverse political outcomes.
    Mmm. So I'd need to put £500k on!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,551
    edited 7:05PM

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    That's within my prediction for Restore Britain of 2% to 12% (or so).

    :smiley:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,826
    "Wellings" explores Ilford Lane!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-DwquXSY8
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,246
    Re: AMOC collapse. It's worth making a few points.

    Firstly, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans both have mid-latitude storm tracks, even though the Pacific doesn't have an equivalent to the AMOC. The storm tracks exist because the tropics are warmer than the poles, and the coriolis force limits the poleward extent of the Hadley circulation. Therefore you have a strong temperature gradient which creates a strong westerly thermal wind, a large amount of baroclinic instability and consequently a storm track, which has two effects which are relevant to us here: it mixes a lot of heat towards the poles, and it creates an ocean gyre circulation (which is why the west coast of North America is warmer than the east coast of Asia).

    If the AMOC collapses the Atlantic will still have a storm track and it will still have an ocean gyre circulation that makes the west coast of Europe warmer than the east coast of North America.

    What might change is the latitude of the storm track. The Atlantic storm track has a more pronounced SW to NE tilt than the Pacific storm track and it's not obvious how much of that is due to differences in the shape of the ocean basins, or due to changes in SSTs due to the AMOC. So the storm track could shift south and Britain might see both a reduction in warming from the AMOC directly, and end up on the poleward side of the storm track and miss out on the heating from that too.

    There are lots of other effects at play too. I did see one paper arguing for a link between reduced solar activity and more frequent winter easterlies over Britain, for example.

    The other thing to point out is that these effects would be much more influential in winter. So a reduction in winter mean temperatures of 15C, but little difference the rest of the year, would equate to an annual mean temperature change of 3.75C. Similarly, an annual mean temperature change of 1.5C could equate to a winter mean temperature change of 4C.

    For context, the warmest winter in the Central England temperature record had a mean temperature of 6.83C (2016) and the coldest winter had a mean temperature of -1.17C (1684), a difference of only 8C. The coldest winter this century was 2.53C (2010). [Meteorological winters, DJF, are by convention dated by the year of January, so winter 2016 was December 2015 - February 2016.]

    The most important thing to do is to improve the insulation of British homes. We'd better survive the direct impact of an AMOC collapse, it would reduce home heating costs, improve living temperatures and reduce damp in homes, improving winter health, reduce fossil fuel use, and make British homes more suitable to be heated by heat pumps rather than fossil fuels, helping to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that may tip the AMOC over the edge.

    This has, of course, been obvious for decades, and progress has been relatively poor.

    Instead, many pensioners are provided with a winter fuel allowance to spend on fossil fuels. Go figure.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.
    Trouble with that is £30 is meagre compensation for the country falling off a cliff.
    That just tells us you’ve missized your bet by failing to assess the actual NEV to you of those adverse political outcomes.
    Mmm. So I'd need to put £500k on!
    Lol.

    Logically, if the probability of economic devastation after a Reform by-election win were very high, and your personal exposure to economic calamity also very high, then yes, you absolutely should. But of course it’s just a by-election, a Reform win might not have any more long-term consequences than all those Liberal/SDP alliance by-election wins in times past, maybe a Reform government would be just as hemmed in as to what it can or cannot do as all our other governments, and maybe you’re not as personally exposed to financial downturn as many more ordinary folks?

    If you did all these sums properly you should be able to zero in on the range of an appropriately sized bet.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,884
    IanB2 said:


    Tom Nichols
    @RadioFreeTom
    ·
    2h
    Emotionally unstable man goes on paranoid, babbling rant.

    Somewhere in that suit, he has a small card with the codes to 1500 strategic nuclear weapons.

    https://x.com/RadioFreeTom/status/2063654813821268011

    If his staff are sensible they will have rigged up a fake nuclear button in their bunker that makes lots of impressive noises when it’s pressed but otherwise connects to absolutely nothing at all.
    And, if we can then say to Mr President that he can never, ever, leave that bunker because it's too radioactive outside... an elegant solution to our problems presents itself.

    Persuading JDV of the same thing as well would be even better.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,396
    IanB2 said:


    Tom Nichols
    @RadioFreeTom
    ·
    2h
    Emotionally unstable man goes on paranoid, babbling rant.

    Somewhere in that suit, he has a small card with the codes to 1500 strategic nuclear weapons.

    https://x.com/RadioFreeTom/status/2063654813821268011

    If his staff are sensible they will have rigged up a fake nuclear button in their bunker that makes lots of impressive noises when it’s pressed but otherwise connects to absolutely nothing at all.
    They made "arrangements" for Nixon near the end. Let us hope they have made arrangements this time.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 5,113

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    It's great when PB turns up posts like this, reminds me why I still scroll here most days.

    Threw a few quid on Reform on the back of this at 6/1. I still expect to lose, and frankly, if Reform do win here I think it's probably my final kick up the arse to emigrate before the fourth reich are upon us. But a value bet is a value bet.

    My guess is it will still be Burnham but a lot closer than the odds suggest.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612
    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,826

    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155

    Vickrum Digwa was a rabid racist. Discuss.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,612

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    Can I use this comment for the morning thread ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,756
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    I suspect it will be close, too close to risk a bet. Do you have any evidence of differential turnout?
    I'm tempted to bet on Reform so that I have some kind of consolation prize if they win but be basically hoping I lose my fiver.
    Trouble with that is £30 is meagre compensation for the country falling off a cliff.
    That just tells us you’ve missized your bet by failing to assess the actual NEV to you of those adverse political outcomes.
    Mmm. So I'd need to put £500k on!
    Lol.

    Logically, if the probability of economic devastation after a Reform by-election win were very high, and your personal exposure to economic calamity also very high, then yes, you absolutely should. But of course it’s just a by-election, a Reform win might not have any more long-term consequences than all those Liberal/SDP alliance by-election wins in times past, maybe a Reform government would be just as hemmed in as to what it can or cannot do as all our other governments, and maybe you’re not as personally exposed to financial downturn as many more ordinary folks?

    If you did all these sums properly you should be able to zero in on the range of an appropriately sized bet.
    But how to price the emotional distress of this country that I love going bad? Very tricky modelling task.

    Any case, not to worry, Burnham's winning and I'm on at 1.68.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,450

    Re: AMOC collapse. It's worth making a few points.

    Firstly, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans both have mid-latitude storm tracks, even though the Pacific doesn't have an equivalent to the AMOC. The storm tracks exist because the tropics are warmer than the poles, and the coriolis force limits the poleward extent of the Hadley circulation. Therefore you have a strong temperature gradient which creates a strong westerly thermal wind, a large amount of baroclinic instability and consequently a storm track, which has two effects which are relevant to us here: it mixes a lot of heat towards the poles, and it creates an ocean gyre circulation (which is why the west coast of North America is warmer than the east coast of Asia).

    If the AMOC collapses the Atlantic will still have a storm track and it will still have an ocean gyre circulation that makes the west coast of Europe warmer than the east coast of North America.

    What might change is the latitude of the storm track. The Atlantic storm track has a more pronounced SW to NE tilt than the Pacific storm track and it's not obvious how much of that is due to differences in the shape of the ocean basins, or due to changes in SSTs due to the AMOC. So the storm track could shift south and Britain might see both a reduction in warming from the AMOC directly, and end up on the poleward side of the storm track and miss out on the heating from that too.

    There are lots of other effects at play too. I did see one paper arguing for a link between reduced solar activity and more frequent winter easterlies over Britain, for example.

    The other thing to point out is that these effects would be much more influential in winter. So a reduction in winter mean temperatures of 15C, but little difference the rest of the year, would equate to an annual mean temperature change of 3.75C. Similarly, an annual mean temperature change of 1.5C could equate to a winter mean temperature change of 4C.

    For context, the warmest winter in the Central England temperature record had a mean temperature of 6.83C (2016) and the coldest winter had a mean temperature of -1.17C (1684), a difference of only 8C. The coldest winter this century was 2.53C (2010). [Meteorological winters, DJF, are by convention dated by the year of January, so winter 2016 was December 2015 - February 2016.]

    The most important thing to do is to improve the insulation of British homes. We'd better survive the direct impact of an AMOC collapse, it would reduce home heating costs, improve living temperatures and reduce damp in homes, improving winter health, reduce fossil fuel use, and make British homes more suitable to be heated by heat pumps rather than fossil fuels, helping to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that may tip the AMOC over the edge.

    This has, of course, been obvious for decades, and progress has been relatively poor.

    Instead, many pensioners are provided with a winter fuel allowance to spend on fossil fuels. Go figure.

    A couple of weeks back I spent a fair few days lying in bed looking at was clearly the underside of the roof tiles that lined the roof of the Italian property I was staying in, built in modern times but intended to be sympathetic to the medieval village to which is was adjacent. They hadn’t seen any need to insulate the roof beneath its surface at all, and had one of the toof tiles been removed I would have been in bed looking straight up at the sky. I didn’t finish thinking through whether this made sense, given their climate, or not.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,832

    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155

    Vickrum Digwa was a rabid racist. Discuss.
    It goes without saying that the lying murderer was a very bad man who used a vile racial ploy to hoodwink the police. He is a c***, but I don't know if he is a racist.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,204
    As someone whose life was saved by a pacemaker I wish Christian all the best

    https://news.sky.com/story/danish-footballer-christian-eriksen-collapses-on-pitch-13551755
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,807
    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    That's actually quite a good letter (considerably better than her standard social media postings). The question, though, is how much impact it's had/ will have. I did note that the polling shows a considerable gender split in the support for Reform, so may have had some.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,832

    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155

    Dystopia warning (obviously).

    I am guessing Tan Smith isn't a PB favourite.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 73

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    That's actually quite a good letter (considerably better than her standard social media postings). The question, though, is how much impact it's had/ will have. I did note that the polling shows a considerable gender split in the support for Reform, so may have had some.
    Perhaps a bigger question is does this set a precedent that could lead to people of wealth and influence bypassing electoral spending rules? You can’t pay people to vote by Musk organised a lottery for people who registered.

    What’s to stop a celebrity backed by a Crypto investor abroad writing a “Heartfelt!” Letter in an election campaign?

    Peter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,551
    edited 7:47PM

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    That's actually quite a good letter (considerably better than her standard social media postings). The question, though, is how much impact it's had/ will have. I did note that the polling shows a considerable gender split in the support for Reform, so may have had some.
    I'd put it at "some votes at the margins" - maybe up to hundreds on top of other factors. I can see women thinking about their daughters being influenced, and Carol Vorderman has profile amongst older people from 26 years of Countdown, and also online. The British Crime Survey numbers are that the percentage of women who report sexual harassment in one form or another is a large majority. Voting is also an act that can be done without having to deal with police or personal consequences.

    But others here are far better at that sort of estimate than me, and know far better how voters behave.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209

    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155

    Dystopia warning (obviously).

    I am guessing Tan Smith isn't a PB favourite.
    Supergriftski, her of the Nazi salute.

    https://x.com/rlk303303/status/1955763281035190511?s=61
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209
    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.
  • PeterCairnsPeterCairns Posts: 73

    IanB2 said:


    Tom Nichols
    @RadioFreeTom
    ·
    2h
    Emotionally unstable man goes on paranoid, babbling rant.

    Somewhere in that suit, he has a small card with the codes to 1500 strategic nuclear weapons.

    https://x.com/RadioFreeTom/status/2063654813821268011

    If his staff are sensible they will have rigged up a fake nuclear button in their bunker that makes lots of impressive noises when it’s pressed but otherwise connects to absolutely nothing at all.
    They made "arrangements" for Nixon near the end. Let us hope they have made arrangements this time.
    Sorry you lost me at “If his staff are sensible!”

    Peter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209
    Charlie Simpson

    He has been right a few times but…..

    Anyway, if true, Reform (like The Greens) really needs to professionalise their vetting.

    ‘ EXCLUSIVE: Reform UK is vetting candidates for the Greater Manchester mayoral position.

    Andy Burnham, the current Mayor of Greater Manchester, is Labour’s candidate for the Makerfield by-election. In the event that he wins the by-election, he will have to resign from his position as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

    Sources at Reform HQ have told me that the party believes Andy Burnham will win with a "massive majority." One source added: "Restore Britain has lost us this election. We have to learn and understand why people are choosing them over us."

    The party wants to select a local candidate for the mayoral race potentially someone like Dan Barker, who stood for the position in 2024 and is a member of the party’s board.

    https://x.com/charliesimpsona/status/2063675370356854877?s=61
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,204
    edited 7:55PM
    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    I have no idea why anyone would be pleased but Iran opening direct hostility on Israel is a very unwelcome development

    Israel says it has intercepted all missiles from Iran so far and will retaliate
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,832
    edited 7:56PM
    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    After Trump's recalcitrance with Bibi last week Bibi just pulled out the kompromat and here we are.

    Bombs raining down on Jerusalem and Tehran.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,994

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    That's actually quite a good letter (considerably better than her standard social media postings). The question, though, is how much impact it's had/ will have. I did note that the polling shows a considerable gender split in the support for Reform, so may have had some.
    Perhaps a bigger question is does this set a precedent that could lead to people of wealth and influence bypassing electoral spending rules? You can’t pay people to vote by Musk organised a lottery for people who registered.

    What’s to stop a celebrity backed by a Crypto investor abroad writing a “Heartfelt!” Letter in an election campaign?

    Peter.
    Well, one thing that stops this idea is that it won't persuade most people most of the time. Vorderman was the target of Kenyon's tweeting and that gives her voice some weight. I don't think most random celebrities are going to have much impact.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,270
    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    I don't think we have covered it. Carol Vorderman is very very deep into the left wing/wealth tax/HNH nexus, and her and her associates will have been delighted that there was a personal connection for her to exploit. I see it as contrary to the spirit of election rules if not the letter,

    I don't think it will really move the dial, because I think we live in a very cynical age. Those who will be appalled by the content of Carol's letter and not see it as a clever and opportunistic piece of campaigning will fit almost entirely into those already planning to vote for Burnham. With maybe a couple already planning to vote for Lowe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209

    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    After Trump's recalcitrance with Bibi last week Bibi just pulled out the kompromat and here we are.
    Israel provoked by bombing Beirut.

    Israel is reported, by NYT, to be spying on its allies.

    https://x.com/marionawfal/status/2063421429115244613?s=61
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209

    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    I have no idea why anyone would be pleased but Iran opening direct hostility on Israel is a very unwelcome development

    Israel says it has intercepted all missiles from Iran so far and will retaliate
    Warmongers love war, I’d guess

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,937
    Taz said:

    Charlie Simpson

    He has been right a few times but…..

    Anyway, if true, Reform (like The Greens) really needs to professionalise their vetting.

    ‘ EXCLUSIVE: Reform UK is vetting candidates for the Greater Manchester mayoral position.

    Andy Burnham, the current Mayor of Greater Manchester, is Labour’s candidate for the Makerfield by-election. In the event that he wins the by-election, he will have to resign from his position as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

    Sources at Reform HQ have told me that the party believes Andy Burnham will win with a "massive majority." One source added: "Restore Britain has lost us this election. We have to learn and understand why people are choosing them over us."

    The party wants to select a local candidate for the mayoral race potentially someone like Dan Barker, who stood for the position in 2024 and is a member of the party’s board.

    https://x.com/charliesimpsona/status/2063675370356854877?s=61

    'One source added: "Restore Britain has lost us this election. We have to learn and understand why people are choosing them over us."

    Based on some Restore posters on X as too many non white figures at the top of Reform like Yusuf and as Reform aren't hardline enough on mass deportations. So such 'learning' might see Reform have to head even further right, leaving a gap in the centre for the Tories and Labour to occupy
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,270

    Just in case you weren’t aware, the so called “patriots” are now calling Henry Nowak’s sister a “mud shark race traitor” because she has a mixed race child.

    The “protests” in Southampton aren’t about his death.

    They’re about rabid racism and male violence.


    https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/2063649567405384155

    I have entirely justified 'largely peaceful' protests with a few hotheads. You have a baying racist mob. He has a fascist insurrection.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    I don't think we have covered it. Carol Vorderman is very very deep into the left wing/wealth tax/HNH nexus, and her and her associates will have been delighted that there was a personal connection for her to exploit. I see it as contrary to the spirit of election rules if not the letter,

    I don't think it will really move the dial, because I think we live in a very cynical age. Those who will be appalled by the content of Carol's letter and not see it as a clever and opportunistic piece of campaigning will fit almost entirely into those already planning to vote for Burnham. With maybe a couple already planning to vote for Lowe.
    Oddly enough her anger towards Kenyon over his comment does not seem to be replicated towards the person who posted the original comment.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,809
    By one definition, a majority of web traffic[1] is now bots

    https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic?dateStart=2026-04-01&dateEnd=2026-06-07

    [1] as defined by HTTP requests distribution to HTML content. Other definitions are available.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,994

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    I don't think we have covered it. Carol Vorderman is very very deep into the left wing/wealth tax/HNH nexus, and her and her associates will have been delighted that there was a personal connection for her to exploit. I see it as contrary to the spirit of election rules if not the letter,

    I don't think it will really move the dial, because I think we live in a very cynical age. Those who will be appalled by the content of Carol's letter and not see it as a clever and opportunistic piece of campaigning will fit almost entirely into those already planning to vote for Burnham. With maybe a couple already planning to vote for Lowe.
    I think Musk's ramping of Lowe on Twitter represents a greater challenge to the election rules. I don't mean in terms of personally endorsing him, but in terms of how Twitter selectively promotes voices Musk agrees with. Meanwhile, X is paying Lowe over £10,000 per month.
  • This feels like a massive opportunity for Labour and the Tories to re-establish themselves as the duopoly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,882

    I've spent around five hours canvassing in Makerfield. There is a little Restore support (2%?), but it's basically a Lab/Ref battle. I didn't meet a single voter planning to vote Tory, Green or LibDem, and I'm sure they will all lose their deposits.

    As for the result, I think it's a toss-up. There is a huge Labour volunteer turnout - nearly all roads have now been canvassed three times - but the betting showing Labour clearly ahead is IMO a bit optimistic. A notable touch is that Andy is campaigning on his record in Greater Manchester, and some leaflets don't even mention Labour. Conversely Reform's leaflets largely ignore their candidate, even though he's local. Voters don't seem very exercised by local issues, even though flooding has adversely affected parts - it comes down to liking Andy+disliking Reform vs "time for a change".

    Can I use this comment for the morning thread ?
    Call me a cynic, but don't canvassers always report that "it is very tight" in order to motivate their voters and workers?

    🤔
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,994
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    I don't think we have covered it. Carol Vorderman is very very deep into the left wing/wealth tax/HNH nexus, and her and her associates will have been delighted that there was a personal connection for her to exploit. I see it as contrary to the spirit of election rules if not the letter,

    I don't think it will really move the dial, because I think we live in a very cynical age. Those who will be appalled by the content of Carol's letter and not see it as a clever and opportunistic piece of campaigning will fit almost entirely into those already planning to vote for Burnham. With maybe a couple already planning to vote for Lowe.
    Oddly enough her anger towards Kenyon over his comment does not seem to be replicated towards the person who posted the original comment.
    The person who posted the original comment is not standing for election.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,832
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    After Trump's recalcitrance with Bibi last week Bibi just pulled out the kompromat and here we are.
    Israel provoked by bombing Beirut.

    Israel is reported, by NYT, to be spying on its allies.

    https://x.com/marionawfal/status/2063421429115244613?s=61
    Bibi no longer fears a backlash from the US. Trump may have got a bit sweary last week but Bibi knows there are no sanctions for Bibi exercising his military strength.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,882
    viewcode said:

    By one definition, a majority of web traffic[1] is now bots

    https://radar.cloudflare.com/traffic?dateStart=2026-04-01&dateEnd=2026-06-07

    [1] as defined by HTTP requests distribution to HTML content. Other definitions are available.

    The "Dead internet theory" is looking ever more true. At least as far as Social Media is concerned.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,235

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Bart will be pleased.

    Looks like the ceasefire is done and, in the words of Chris Morris.

    It’s War.

    After Trump's recalcitrance with Bibi last week Bibi just pulled out the kompromat and here we are.
    Israel provoked by bombing Beirut.

    Israel is reported, by NYT, to be spying on its allies.

    https://x.com/marionawfal/status/2063421429115244613?s=61
    Bibi no longer fears a backlash from the US. Trump may have got a bit sweary last week but Bibi knows there are no sanctions for Bibi exercising his military strength.
    Bomb the bastard out of his bunker
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,209

    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Have we covered the Vorderman Letter (to the women of Makerfield) about the plumber's comments? I have seen a reference that she sent out 6000 copies.

    I was not expecting THAT.

    Letter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HJqrYeDXIAMgcOX?format=jpg&name=medium

    Manchester Evening news article:
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/i-swaying-towards-reform-until-34075678

    (Updated)

    I don't think we have covered it. Carol Vorderman is very very deep into the left wing/wealth tax/HNH nexus, and her and her associates will have been delighted that there was a personal connection for her to exploit. I see it as contrary to the spirit of election rules if not the letter,

    I don't think it will really move the dial, because I think we live in a very cynical age. Those who will be appalled by the content of Carol's letter and not see it as a clever and opportunistic piece of campaigning will fit almost entirely into those already planning to vote for Burnham. With maybe a couple already planning to vote for Lowe.
    Oddly enough her anger towards Kenyon over his comment does not seem to be replicated towards the person who posted the original comment.
    The person who posted the original comment is not standing for election.
    And ?

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