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  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    I am not conflating anything .The claim was that 28,000 Romanians ARE BEING HELD , If they are being held for serious crimes other than in jail I would be very surprised . I repeat the total number of foreign nationals of all nationalities in 2013 was 10.786 .
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.

    The language looks designed to confuse and misinform. The reality seems to be that over a five year period there were 28,000 arrests of Romanians for every kind of alleged crime. So, we may not be talking about 28,000 different Romanians and we are not talking about crimes that have ended in thousands of prison sentences and we are not talking about a single moment in time.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    It says arrested not imprisoned. Again you are being deliberately misleading.

    I would however say that using a figure for 'arrested' rather than 'charged' is itself potentially misleading as it could easily reflect a bias within the met against Romanians (leading to more arrests) rather than an underlying criminality. Maybe 'the usual suspects' are all Romanian these days.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/

    "Racist" has to be the word that is used most incorrectly in political debate doesn't it? Pure 1984 style manipulation of words by the people setting the agenda. Aren't there many different races in the EU, most of whom are also present in Britain?

    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.
    This all comes down to Hedgehogs and Foxes, like so many things nowadays

    The vast majority of ordinary people think racism is being horrible to someone of a different race, and poverty is being so poor you can barely afford to exist

    A small percentage of clever clogs know it alls like to dance on the head of a pin and confuse everything so it means nothing or everything..

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    Now you're just making claims without basis.

    I'd suggest that the vast majority of ordinary people would use racism in its broad sense rather than making technical distinctions between racism and xenophobia.

    Indeed "that's not racism it's xenophobia" sounds rather like a clever clogs dancing on the head of pin in your terms.
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?

    So when people complain about anti-English racism they are nit-picking and they are wrong?

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.

    Fact checks have established that 28,000 individual Romanians had been arrested and held for alleged crimes in London at the time the UKIP claim was made? That is an extraordinary figure.


    "Overall, the figures reported by the Daily Mail and the Express are correct: Romania does seem to find a particularly large proportion of their citizens in the UK arrested by the Met police."

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799

    But again it is somewhat misleading because it is over a 5 year period and it is almost certainly the case that many of those arrests were multiple rearrests of a smaller number of individuals.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/

    "Racist" has to be the word that is used most incorrectly in political debate doesn't it? Pure 1984 style manipulation of words by the people setting the agenda. Aren't there many different races in the EU, most of whom are also present in Britain?

    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.
    This all comes down to Hedgehogs and Foxes, like so many things nowadays

    The vast majority of ordinary people think racism is being horrible to someone of a different race, and poverty is being so poor you can barely afford to exist

    A small percentage of clever clogs know it alls like to dance on the head of a pin and confuse everything so it means nothing or everything..

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    Now you're just making claims without basis.

    I'd suggest that the vast majority of ordinary people would use racism in its broad sense rather than making technical distinctions between racism and xenophobia.

    Indeed "that's not racism it's xenophobia" sounds rather like a clever clogs dancing on the head of pin in your terms.
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?

    So when people complain about anti-English racism they are nit-picking and they are wrong?

    Farage said it about Scottish protestors didn't he? Yeah I'd say he was wrong
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.

    Fact checks have established that 28,000 individual Romanians had been arrested and held for alleged crimes in London at the time the UKIP claim was made? That is an extraordinary figure.


    "Overall, the figures reported by the Daily Mail and the Express are correct: Romania does seem to find a particularly large proportion of their citizens in the UK arrested by the Met police."

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799

    But again it is somewhat misleading because it is over a 5 year period and it is almost certainly the case that many of those arrests were multiple rearrests of a smaller number of individuals.

    Agreed. It's very misleading. That is unfortunate, to say the least.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    I am not conflating anything .The claim was that 28,000 Romanians ARE BEING HELD , If they are being held for serious crimes other than in jail I would be very surprised . I repeat the total number of foreign nationals of all nationalities in 2013 was 10.786 .
    Now you are resorting to outright lies.

    The quote does not say 'are being held' it says 'are held'. Anyone with a very basic knowledge of grammar (and I know that as a Lib Dem that might not include you) knows they mean two very different things.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Lord Ashcroft ‏@LordAshcroft 28m
    The UKIP posters plus the parodies of them will do UKIP no harm, but probably the reverse.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    I am not conflating anything .The claim was that 28,000 Romanians ARE BEING HELD , If they are being held for serious crimes other than in jail I would be very surprised . I repeat the total number of foreign nationals of all nationalities in 2013 was 10.786 .
    Now you are resorting to outright lies.

    The quote does not say 'are being held' it says 'are held'. Anyone with a very basic knowledge of grammar (and I know that as a Lib Dem that might not include you) knows they mean two very different things.

    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.
    This all comes down to Hedgehogs and Foxes, like so many things nowadays

    The vast majority of ordinary people think racism is being horrible to someone of a different race, and poverty is being so poor you can barely afford to exist

    A small percentage of clever clogs know it alls like to dance on the head of a pin and confuse everything so it means nothing or everything..

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    Now you're just making claims without basis.

    I'd suggest that the vast majority of ordinary people would use racism in its broad sense rather than making technical distinctions between racism and xenophobia.

    Indeed "that's not racism it's xenophobia" sounds rather like a clever clogs dancing on the head of pin in your terms.
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.

    Fact checks have established that 28,000 individual Romanians had been arrested and held for alleged crimes in London at the time the UKIP claim was made? That is an extraordinary figure.


    "Overall, the figures reported by the Daily Mail and the Express are correct: Romania does seem to find a particularly large proportion of their citizens in the UK arrested by the Met police."

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799

    But again it is somewhat misleading because it is over a 5 year period and it is almost certainly the case that many of those arrests were multiple rearrests of a smaller number of individuals.

    Agreed. It's very misleading. That is unfortunate, to say the least.

    Not to mention that this is arrests rather than convictions (or even charged with the crime).

    But misleading language? I'm sure Isam will be all over it...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.
    This all comes down to Hedgehogs and Foxes, like so many things nowadays

    The vast majority of ordinary people think racism is being horrible to someone of a different race, and poverty is being so poor you can barely afford to exist

    A small percentage of clever clogs know it alls like to dance on the head of a pin and confuse everything so it means nothing or everything..

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    Now you're just making claims without basis.

    I'd suggest that the vast majority of ordinary people would use racism in its broad sense rather than making technical distinctions between racism and xenophobia.

    Indeed "that's not racism it's xenophobia" sounds rather like a clever clogs dancing on the head of pin in your terms.
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
    I think you are wrong and many people would indeed point out that Germans are generally the same race as English people
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    Now you're just making claims without basis.

    I'd suggest that the vast majority of ordinary people would use racism in its broad sense rather than making technical distinctions between racism and xenophobia.

    Indeed "that's not racism it's xenophobia" sounds rather like a clever clogs dancing on the head of pin in your terms.
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
    I think you are wrong and many people would indeed point out that Germans are generally the same race as English people
    *shrugs* I'll go at you anecdote for anecdote if you like. Frankly given the lack of a common word to discrimination against religion I've heard it used for that as well.

    Equally I've seen people talk about 'anti-English' racism by the Scots/Welsh/etc or 'anti-Scottish' racism and so on.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    BBC6OClock - Assad calls snap elections.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "The way liberal-left opinion and much of the mainstream political class has turned its fire on the UK Independence Party (UKIP) over its latest poster campaign has been quite something to behold – and if I am not much mistaken it could play straight into UKIP’s hands."

    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/liberal-poster-outrage-and-good-bad-and.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty
    Isam, we went through this other day with poverty, and I (amongst others) pointed out that that usage of the word poverty had been around for centuries.

    The meaning of words evolves without needing an elite conspiracy.

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    .
    Racism in its broadest sense? What, you mean to make it mean whatever you want it to? Or to stop people being opposed to mass immigration?

    I would bet you at very, very short odds that if you went into a pub and asked people to define racism, many more then 75% would mention colour of skin. That is a deal breaker. If its not about race, why call it racism?

    You are just being ridiculous to win an argument with that last sentence? Why not be proud of being a nitpicker that sees nothing in clear and simple terms?
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
    I think you are wrong and many people would indeed point out that Germans are generally the same race as English people
    *shrugs* I'll go at you anecdote for anecdote if you like. Frankly given the lack of a common word to discrimination against religion I've heard it used for that as well.

    Equally I've seen people talk about 'anti-English' racism by the Scots/Welsh/etc or 'anti-Scottish' racism and so on.
    Well we obviously disagree. There isn't a way of resolving it as far I can see. As you say trading anecdotes wont get us anywhere.

  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited April 2014
    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    AndyJS said:

    "The way liberal-left opinion and much of the mainstream political class has turned its fire on the UK Independence Party (UKIP) over its latest poster campaign has been quite something to behold – and if I am not much mistaken it could play straight into UKIP’s hands."

    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/liberal-poster-outrage-and-good-bad-and.html

    Good article.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "No one, not even the most fervent Kipper, believes that the 26 million unemployed of the EU all want their job."

    You're missing the point I think, which is that any one of the 26 million unemployed of the EU might just want a particular British person's job. If you're that one person, that's all that matters. The fact that the other 25,999,999 didn't want it doesn't help.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    BBC60Clock - Lol - the SeanT SamCam Milf theory just isn't true is it?

    Apologies Sean and PBers - I'm just bored.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Caroline Spelman calls for the Nordic model re. prostitution:

    A nordic model? going rate's a couple of thousand quid for one of them isn;t it?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    [You're missing the point I think, which is that any one of the 26 million unemployed of the EU might just want a particular British person's job.]

    Yes. And given the amount of anti-unemployment ire that labour generates.... well, it makes me a little angry.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    the 26 million looking for a job thing is partly a criticism of the way the EU is run as it is a scaremongering tactic.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    [I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice]

    Yes, and we end up with words like islamaphobia and islamist. Humans need to talk. I, for one, can not offer up any solutions.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    isam said:

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree

    I don't disagree with that specific example. But neither do I agree that most people will have pulled Farage up on his claim of being subjected to anti-English racism in Scotland on the basis that the English are not a race. Furthermore, I'd say that a fair few people would consider it racist to approach a French person in the street and to call him "a French ****". Likewise, I would argue that many people would consider anti-Semitism to be racism, even though it has nothing to do with skin colour. But, as you say, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited April 2014
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    .
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
    I think you are wrong and many people would indeed point out that Germans are generally the same race as English people
    *shrugs* I'll go at you anecdote for anecdote if you like. Frankly given the lack of a common word to discrimination against religion I've heard it used for that as well.

    Equally I've seen people talk about 'anti-English' racism by the Scots/Welsh/etc or 'anti-Scottish' racism and so on.
    Well we obviously disagree. There isn't a way of resolving it as far I can see. As you say trading anecdotes wont get us anywhere.

    Alas, and I had a 50 year old UN convention and a QI clip lined to show that it wasn't a recent creation by illuminati politicians.

    At the risk of TSE's displeasure, I believe the correct shouted response to your scenario would be 'diving scouser'.

    Btw Isam, your thoughts on the 28,000 Romanians are held' in the UKIP manifesto? Misleading or not?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    The teachers unions really are a piece of work. Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    Sheeesh.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:

    And a little diddums Labour MP has called the posters "wacist"

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-21/nigel-farage-defends-racist-ukip-poster-campaign/


    Eh, the term has long drifted from its strict origins to include xenophobia etc.

    Not everything is 1984.
    It's just another example of the ruling elite changing what a word means but retaining the shock horror factor that the public get from the original meaning #poverty

    Thankfully people are starting to turn their backs on the parties that promote the misuse of language for propaganda purposes

    .
    No, as people use it. Xenophobia isn't exactly in common use as a word, so racism is used in a wider sense.

    Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead.

    I'm a descriptivist, words evolve from their original meaning.
    I think you are wrong and many people would indeed point out that Germans are generally the same race as English people
    *shrugs* I'll go at you anecdote for anecdote if you like. Frankly given the lack of a common word to discrimination against religion I've heard it used for that as well.

    Equally I've seen people talk about 'anti-English' racism by the Scots/Welsh/etc or 'anti-Scottish' racism and so on.
    Well we obviously disagree. There isn't a way of resolving it as far I can see. As you say trading anecdotes wont get us anywhere.

    Alas, and I had a 50 year old UN convention and a QI clip lined to show that it wasn't a recent creation by illuminati politicians.

    At the risk of TSE's displeasure, I believe the correct shouted response to your scenario would be 'diving scouser'.

    Btw Isam, your thoughts on the 28,000 Romanians are held' in the UKIP manifesto? Misleading or not?

    I would have thought they are squeezing the most they can out of statistics that paint immigration in a bad light.. who knew?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    taffys said:

    Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    It's possible to care about two different things at the same time.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited April 2014
    [The teachers unions really are a piece of work. Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    Sheeesh]

    It's not Gove's fault though is it? He's offering up solutions. Their reason for striking is that they don't want to test 4 y/olds. There's a debate to be had about that but I don't see it as a striking matter.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree

    I don't disagree with that specific example. But neither do I agree that most people will have pulled Farage up on his claim of being subjected to anti-English racism in Scotland on the basis that the English are not a race. Furthermore, I'd say that a fair few people would consider it racist to approach a French person in the street and to call him "a French ****". Likewise, I would argue that many people would consider anti-Semitism to be racism, even though it has nothing to do with skin colour. But, as you say, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

    Think anti Semitism is a tricky one as Jews are kind of a race aren't they? I think that one is a grey area more than most anyway
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    AndyJS said:

    "The way liberal-left opinion and much of the mainstream political class has turned its fire on the UK Independence Party (UKIP) over its latest poster campaign has been quite something to behold – and if I am not much mistaken it could play straight into UKIP’s hands."

    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/liberal-poster-outrage-and-good-bad-and.html

    Good article.

    Nail. Head.

    That is one of the reasons why these outbursts of outrage could play straight into UKIP’s hands. For the more that voters see that the mainstream parties and their supporters are being unreasonable, shrill and trying to fool them, the more sympathetic they will become to UKIP’s attempts to posit itself as a Voice of Reason against an out-of-touch political Establishment.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    [Think anti Semitism is a tricky one as Jews are kind of a race aren't they? I think that one is a grey area more than most anyway]

    Yes! Infamously - there's been columns in the guardian and everything.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    The really destructive poster was Harper's "Go Home " van,known as the "racist van" pictures and this attracted criticism even from Farage who could see the messaging was all wrong.Just how many more voters are even more alienated than attracted to Tory policies?
    The lesson from the Ukip poster is more a 1950s TUC poster to join a trade union than vote Ukip but I'm sure it makes perfect sense to average 80 year old Daily Express reader.
  • taffys said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    The teachers unions really are a piece of work. Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    Sheeesh.

    Can we be clear - this is ONE teaching union, not 'teachers'.

    Striking is a completely ineffectual way to deal with issues like early years testing - an organised boycott of tests would be much more effective and garner more parental support.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    AndyJS said:

    "The way liberal-left opinion and much of the mainstream political class has turned its fire on the UK Independence Party (UKIP) over its latest poster campaign has been quite something to behold – and if I am not much mistaken it could play straight into UKIP’s hands."

    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/liberal-poster-outrage-and-good-bad-and.html

    Good article.

    Nail. Head.

    That is one of the reasons why these outbursts of outrage could play straight into UKIP’s hands. For the more that voters see that the mainstream parties and their supporters are being unreasonable, shrill and trying to fool them, the more sympathetic they will become to UKIP’s attempts to posit itself as a Voice of Reason against an out-of-touch political Establishment.

    As I say, a very good article. The critique of UKIP and of its critics is very strong.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    taffys said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    The teachers unions really are a piece of work. Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    Sheeesh.

    Can we be clear - this is ONE teaching union, not 'teachers'.

    Striking is a completely ineffectual way to deal with issues like early years testing - an organised boycott of tests would be much more effective and garner more parental support.

    Gove must love the NUT's leadership. They are almost Scargillite in their ability to do exactly what Tory ministers want them to do.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JBriskin said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    Don't worry. Gove reciprocates - he hates teachers which is going to cost the Tories on May 7 next year.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited April 2014
    isam said:

    isam said:

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree

    I don't disagree with that specific example. But neither do I agree that most people will have pulled Farage up on his claim of being subjected to anti-English racism in Scotland on the basis that the English are not a race. Furthermore, I'd say that a fair few people would consider it racist to approach a French person in the street and to call him "a French ****". Likewise, I would argue that many people would consider anti-Semitism to be racism, even though it has nothing to do with skin colour. But, as you say, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

    Think anti Semitism is a tricky one as Jews are kind of a race aren't they? I think that one is a grey area more than most anyway
    The concept of race generally is a rather grey area (certainly as distinct races rather than a continuous spectrum).

    They often are, hispanic and latin american are often used in the US but rather unclear.

    The wiki article on race is actually rather good.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    BobaFett said:

    TOPPING said:

    Would be bonkers to get rid of Moyes. He's had one season for heaven't sake - god let MUFC not turn into another revolving door-type club.

    Not that I don't want MUFC to lose every game they play - I do, just that this seems not appropriate behaviour.

    Without referring to the Moyes case specifically there's an 'all must win prizes' mentality among the foreign billionaires who now own our major clubs. As there are only four trophies that can be won in any one season, it's not possible for everyone to have success every year, hence the revolving door fiasco that has undermined football. Fans of the New Football also have to take their share of the blame, whinging if they don't get instant and perennial success. How hard life must be for fans of Utd - one bad season after years of wall to wall success.
    Moyes will at least leave with millions to soothe his bruised ego and will get another slot soon.
  • JBriskin said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    Maybe, but don't forget all those parents' votes he's set to collect.

  • taffys said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    The teachers unions really are a piece of work. Some teachers in Birmingham have allegedly been the target of horrendous intimidation and rampant and illegal sexual discrimination, and yet all they are worried about is Gove.

    Sheeesh.

    Can we be clear - this is ONE teaching union, not 'teachers'.

    Striking is a completely ineffectual way to deal with issues like early years testing - an organised boycott of tests would be much more effective and garner more parental support.

    Gove must love the NUT's leadership. They are almost Scargillite in their ability to do exactly what Tory ministers want them to do.

    I agree. the NUT are the worst for shooting us all in the foot, as news outlets don't differentiate between the multiple unions/professional organisations.

    Also, many of their members are the younger teachers, who can barely afford to lose a day's pay.

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    JBriskin said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    Don't worry. Gove reciprocates - he hates teachers which is going to cost the Tories on May 7 next year.

    Would that be the teachers that have dragged our once envied education system into the gutter over the last fifty years? Not all teachers obviously, but the militant dinosaurs on display today who do not care one jot about the kids education, they are only interested in furthering their political agenda.

    Parents are wishing up Mike, about time you did too.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited April 2014
    AndyJS said:
    Am I the only one who can see the problem in this? Men who have strong desires for sex (most of us?) but arent able to attract, for many reasons, a woman to indulge for free still need satisfaction.

    So lets run through it. Socially awkward Ed has strong needs, in fact his needs are so overwhelming that he *needs* the release. Socially awkward Ed works in retail, earns under 20k.

    Socially awkward Ed does a quick search on the interweb and finds a site in which adults offer services. A quick email later he has an appointment in an hour to a house a couple of miles away. He pays £100 to a lady who works to pay her bills, gets his release, walks away happy.

    She freely sold her self, he freely bought it.

    The alternative? A man who has strong sexual desires and has no way of carrying them out lawfully?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.
  • Cough....


    Oddschecker @Oddschecker
    From 80/1 earlier, David Moyes is now just 16/1 to be next Spurs manager. Would #THFC fans welcome the Moyesiah? http://bit.ly/1iS1PZh
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.
    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    notme said:

    AndyJS said:
    Am I the only one who can see the problem in this? Men who have strong desires for sex (most of us?) but arent able to attract, for many reasons, a woman to indulge for free still need satisfaction.

    So lets run through it. Socially awkward Ed has strong needs, in fact his needs are so overwhelming that he *needs* the release. Socially awkward Ed works in retail, earns under 20k.

    Socially awkward Ed does a quick search on the interweb and finds a site in which adults offer services. A quick email later he has an appointment in an hour to a house a couple of miles away. He pays £100 to a lady who works to pay her bills, gets his release, walks away happy.

    She freely sold her self, he freely bought it.

    The alternative? A man who has strong sexual desires and has no way of carrying them out lawfully?
    I'm not well versed in the Nordic Model, but it doesn't ban masturbation does it?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    malcolmg said:

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.
    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
    It does, the Government holding data on its citizens outside the EU would be legally problematic, wouldn't it?

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    isam said:

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree

    I don't disagree with that specific example. But neither do I agree that most people will have pulled Farage up on his claim of being subjected to anti-English racism in Scotland on the basis that the English are not a race. Furthermore, I'd say that a fair few people would consider it racist to approach a French person in the street and to call him "a French ****". Likewise, I would argue that many people would consider anti-Semitism to be racism, even though it has nothing to do with skin colour. But, as you say, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

    I am fairly sure that anti-English, anti-French and anti-Semitic discrimination are all equally classed as racial discrimination under the appropriate Act. In fact from my HR training many years ago I dimly recall a case where anti-New Zealander discrimination was found to be unlawful racial discrimination.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited April 2014
    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They speak volumes about what is wrong with this Country . They want to knock down every brick of this Country until nothing is left.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10777417/David-Cameron-fosters-division-by-calling-Britain-a-Christian-country.html


    One just knew the repugnantly odious Toynbee would be in there somewhere.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JBriskin said:

    BBC60Clock - Lol - the SeanT SamCam Milf theory just isn't true is it?

    Apologies Sean and PBers - I'm just bored.

    I must have missed that?!

    Personally, I think she is rather cold, and my wife really doesn't take to her at all.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    notme said:

    AndyJS said:
    Am I the only one who can see the problem in this? Men who have strong desires for sex (most of us?) but arent able to attract, for many reasons, a woman to indulge for free still need satisfaction.

    So lets run through it. Socially awkward Ed has strong needs, in fact his needs are so overwhelming that he *needs* the release. Socially awkward Ed works in retail, earns under 20k.

    Socially awkward Ed does a quick search on the interweb and finds a site in which adults offer services. A quick email later he has an appointment in an hour to a house a couple of miles away. He pays £100 to a lady who works to pay her bills, gets his release, walks away happy.

    She freely sold her self, he freely bought it.

    The alternative? A man who has strong sexual desires and has no way of carrying them out lawfully?
    I agree. Banning the sex trade between consenting adults is a bit like banning girls under 16 from getting pregnant. Nice idea in theory but it won't work.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited April 2014
    Charles - [I must have missed that?!]

    From memory, Sean's Sam Cam hottest wife meme pushing went on for some time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    JBriskin said:

    BBC60Clock - Teachers [hate] Gove

    Don't worry. Gove reciprocates - he hates teachers which is going to cost the Tories on May 7 next year.

    I doubt Michael hates anyone.

    He wants to see bad teachers driven out of the profession, but that's not the same thing as hating them
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    isam said:

    "Go into a pub and talk about being racist against the Germans for example, I'll give you very short odds no-one'll be confused or cut you off to complain you should say xenophobia instead"

    I don't think many people were confused by Nigel Farage talking about the anti-English racism he said he suffered in Scotland. Neither do they dismiss anti-Semitism as not being about racism because Jews are white. Obviously skin colour comes into it too, but I suspect most people have a much more developed notion of racism than isam gives them credit for. If you went into a few pubs in Cricklewood, Kilburn and Archway the first thing that would come into the minds of most punters when you mentioned racism would be the anti-Irish kind.

    I give people credit for knowing the difference between forms of prejudice, some based on skin colour (racism) and others on Nationality ( I would habve thought people would just call it anti Scottish/Welsh/French rather than use the word xenophobia)

    In a pub someone shouts "You French ****" at the telly when Patrice Evra fouls Steven Gerrad in an international between France and England.. no one thinks anything of it...

    If they shouted "You black ****" I think people would be shocked and aggro could develop

    Ones racism and the other isn't... but feel free to disagree

    I don't disagree with that specific example. But neither do I agree that most people will have pulled Farage up on his claim of being subjected to anti-English racism in Scotland on the basis that the English are not a race. Furthermore, I'd say that a fair few people would consider it racist to approach a French person in the street and to call him "a French ****". Likewise, I would argue that many people would consider anti-Semitism to be racism, even though it has nothing to do with skin colour. But, as you say, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

    For the hundredth time, what Mr Farage got wasn't anti-English racism - Mr F was just being told to go home by a group of socialists, of whom the two arrested were an English (by parental residence, not course of studies) student and a student pol activist.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They speak volumes about what is wrong with this Country . They want to knock down every brick of this Country until nothing is left.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10777417/David-Cameron-fosters-division-by-calling-Britain-a-Christian-country.html

    Hardly.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited April 2014
    Carnyx - It was anti-english racism. I don't know how you're finding the pubs in Scotland this year but I struggle to read any kind of paper in them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... my wife really doesn't take to her at all"

    I think that might be a pukka gentleman's euphemism for what Herself says about Mrs Cameron, which definitely cannot be repeated on a family web site.

    Ladies outside politics do seem to have stronger views than their menfolk about ladies in the trade.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,376
    LOL @ Parody Poster
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    corporeal said:

    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They speak volumes about what is wrong with this Country . They want to knock down every brick of this Country until nothing is left.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10777417/David-Cameron-fosters-division-by-calling-Britain-a-Christian-country.html

    Hardly.

    They are the thin end of the wedge,.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JBriskin said:

    Charles - [I must have missed that?!]

    From memory, Sean's Sam Cam hottest wife meme pushing went on for some time.

    Unlike SeanT then...?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.
    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
    They have multiple data centres, it is all outsourced mainly to Fujitsu and Cap Gemini. I am not sure of all the locations.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    I wonder if someone in UKIP is trawling the court records to find a rape case involving a Romanian man.......

    Included in the UKIP 2014 manifesto.

    "An Open Door To Crime
    28,000 Romanians are held for crimes in London. Romanians come second on the list of foreign nationals arrested by police for serious crimes.

    This includes 142 rapes, 10 murders, 666 sex crimes, 303 robberies, 1370 burglaries, 2902 acts of violence."

    http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf
    Is that claim really true? Have they mixed up individual people with individual crimes?

    Does anyone have the data?
    In 2013 there were 10.786 foreign nationals of all nationalities in prison in the UK . the 3 countries with the highest numbers were Irish Republic , Jamaica and Poland , so the claim is certainly false .
    Nope the claim is not false since it was made about crime in London not crime in the UK as a whole. I will be generous and assume you made an honest mistake rather than an intentionally misleading statement. The full-fact check on this makes it clear that the figures are accurate.

    The only question is whether they are actually relevant to anything. That is something I have serious doubts about.
    If there were only 10,000 odd foreign nationals of all nationalities in jail in the whole of the UK . there cannot be 28,000 Romanians being held in London , unless I suppose they are being held in the Hilton rather than Wormwood Scrubs .
    Maybe you are conflating those arrested, i.e. held for a crime, and those imprisoned after a finding of guilt. The language may be archaic but the figures not necessarily false on that score.
    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.
    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
    It does, the Government holding data on its citizens outside the EU would be legally problematic, wouldn't it?

    John, even holding the data outside the UK has data privacy issues.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Charles - It was classic SeanT. My favourite was the Ipad meme which skynews seems to have swallowed hole.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    corporeal said:

    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They speak volumes about what is wrong with this Country . They want to knock down every brick of this Country until nothing is left.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10777417/David-Cameron-fosters-division-by-calling-Britain-a-Christian-country.html

    Hardly.

    They are the thin end of the wedge,.
    .. and I should have added, why did they write it.. There was no need to.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think that you have an overly rosy view of why women become prostitutes. Childhoods in care, physical and sexual abuse in childhood, drug and alcohol addiction. That sort of thing. Of course prostittutes pretend to themselves that they are making a free choice, it helps them pretend to their clients that they do not despise them. The Nordic model is a good one.

    Some reasons why are found here:

    http://www.object.org.uk/the-prostitution-facts

    Life for prostitutes in some other parts of the world, like Thailand is not very different. White men here sometimes justify their use of Thai prostitutes in much the same way that some ethnic communities justify their sex rings in the UK. Sex doesn't mean the same to these girls, it is just a bit of fun...
    notme said:

    AndyJS said:
    Am I the only one who can see the problem in this? Men who have strong desires for sex (most of us?) but arent able to attract, for many reasons, a woman to indulge for free still need satisfaction.

    So lets run through it. Socially awkward Ed has strong needs, in fact his needs are so overwhelming that he *needs* the release. Socially awkward Ed works in retail, earns under 20k.

    Socially awkward Ed does a quick search on the interweb and finds a site in which adults offer services. A quick email later he has an appointment in an hour to a house a couple of miles away. He pays £100 to a lady who works to pay her bills, gets his release, walks away happy.

    She freely sold her self, he freely bought it.

    The alternative? A man who has strong sexual desires and has no way of carrying them out lawfully?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    JBriskin said:

    Carnyx - It was anti-english racism. I don't know how you're finding the pubs in Scotland this year but I struggle to read any kind of paper in them.

    JB, how can English people be racist against other English people. Have you been trying to read a paper all afternoon.
  • JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited April 2014
    [JB, how can English people be racist against other English people. Have you been trying to read a paper all afternoon.]

    I've been on Netflix and skynews all afternoon. I'd say it was quite easy for English people to be racist against other english people but I probably PB and skynews too much.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Carlotta, sent you a DM via Vanilla.

    AndyJS said:

    "The way liberal-left opinion and much of the mainstream political class has turned its fire on the UK Independence Party (UKIP) over its latest poster campaign has been quite something to behold – and if I am not much mistaken it could play straight into UKIP’s hands."

    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/liberal-poster-outrage-and-good-bad-and.html

    Good article.

    Nail. Head.

    That is one of the reasons why these outbursts of outrage could play straight into UKIP’s hands. For the more that voters see that the mainstream parties and their supporters are being unreasonable, shrill and trying to fool them, the more sympathetic they will become to UKIP’s attempts to posit itself as a Voice of Reason against an out-of-touch political Establishment.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054

    Cough....


    Oddschecker @Oddschecker
    From 80/1 earlier, David Moyes is now just 16/1 to be next Spurs manager. Would #THFC fans welcome the Moyesiah? http://bit.ly/1iS1PZh

    No thanks. Matinez has proved Moyes was rubbish at Everton as well by doing better with what is essentially the same squad. Over rated. Would prefer a foreigner with a decent track record that can whip these under performers into shape.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:


    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.

    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.


    They have multiple data centres, it is all outsourced mainly to Fujitsu and Cap Gemini. I am not sure of all the locations.

    Thanks, Mr. G.. I have a feeling that mundane issues such as these are going to where the real
    stumbling blocks will lie in any post independence vote negotiations. The big stuff that everyone gets excited about (currency and Faslane/Coulport) are pretty easy to resolve by comparison to such issues as where and how Mr. Brooke's tax returns get processed and the money remitted to the correct account. Then there is National Insurance, all processed through Newcastle as I understand it, and driver and vehicle licensing records held at Swansea.

    One last question, will iScotland have a written constitution? I don't recall seeing anything about it, but it may be quit important for an independent state to have some formal constitution arrangements.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @notme

    There are several foolish things about the Scandinavian model on prostitution:

    1. As the punters will know it's illegal to buy, the whole market has to get forced underground where it is unregulated, dangerous for the women, and likely to involve more trafficked girls.

    2. It is a recipe for extortion and blackmail if two people can carry out an act together, and only one person is legally responsible. The prostitute can then threaten to screw over the punter's entire life unless they are paid handsomely.

    3. While I personally thing prostitution is immoral and a mistake for both buyer and seller, it is not for me, or anyone else, to enforce our morality on grown adults making a consensual transaction.

    The whole model isn't about improving the welfare of the women involved. It's about using the force of government to say how awful men are.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They're arguing that prioritising Christianity is unhelpful. The more common reaction from Christians that I've heard is simply that they don't believe him, in the terms of the lsst letter on the same page.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    pedantrybetting.com
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Socrates
    On point no 3

    I assume you feel the same about people purchasing narcotics?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:


    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.

    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
    They have multiple data centres, it is all outsourced mainly to Fujitsu and Cap Gemini. I am not sure of all the locations.

    Thanks, Mr. G.. I have a feeling that mundane issues such as these are going to where the real
    stumbling blocks will lie in any post independence vote negotiations. The big stuff that everyone gets excited about (currency and Faslane/Coulport) are pretty easy to resolve by comparison to such issues as where and how Mr. Brooke's tax returns get processed and the money remitted to the correct account. Then there is National Insurance, all processed through Newcastle as I understand it, and driver and vehicle licensing records held at Swansea.

    One last question, will iScotland have a written constitution? I don't recall seeing anything about it, but it may be quit important for an independent state to have some formal constitution arrangements.

    Hurst it could be a big issue for rumpUK depending on their contractual obligations to the outsourcers, could be very expensive to get out. Given most of these services are
    outsourced could be very bad for rumpUK.
    Plan is for a written constitution, from SNP at least if they are elected in 2016.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:

    Just popped to say how much I loathe the premise behind these so called 50 Liberals who wrote the letter to the Telegraph about Christianity..

    They speak volumes about what is wrong with this Country . They want to knock down every brick of this Country until nothing is left.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27105023

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10777417/David-Cameron-fosters-division-by-calling-Britain-a-Christian-country.html

    Hardly.

    They are the thin end of the wedge,.
    Depending on your preferred survey, self-identifying Christians range around 40-60% of the population (the all agree it's falling as far as I'm aware). If Christianity isn't already a minority belief in the UK, then it will be soon. That's just reality.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Smarmeron said:

    @Socrates
    On point no 3

    I assume you feel the same about people purchasing narcotics?

    For narcotics which aren't excessively addictive, yes. When addiction is overwhelming, however, the question of "consent" becomes more cloudy.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    Socrates said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Socrates
    On point no 3

    I assume you feel the same about people purchasing narcotics?

    For narcotics which aren't excessively addictive, yes. When addiction is overwhelming, however, the question of "consent" becomes more cloudy.
    How about selling organs?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
    Incorrect. It is grammatically correct to say 'World Cup tournaments are held every 4 years'. It is equally correct to say that several thousand Romanians 'are held [for questioning]' every year. Neither of these indicate the event is ongoing in the present tense at the moment when the statement is made.

    You have been caught out and now are thrashing around to try and justify your position. It is not working and you are just making yourself look rather silly.

    There are lots of reasons for criticising the UKIP campaign (although that doesn't mean it won't work) but you had to try and be clever and have fallen flat on your face.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    Socrates said:

    @notme

    There are several foolish things about the Scandinavian model on prostitution:

    1. As the punters will know it's illegal to buy, the whole market has to get forced underground where it is unregulated, dangerous for the women, and likely to involve more trafficked girls.

    2. It is a recipe for extortion and blackmail if two people can carry out an act together, and only one person is legally responsible. The prostitute can then threaten to screw over the punter's entire life unless they are paid handsomely.

    3. While I personally thing prostitution is immoral and a mistake for both buyer and seller, it is not for me, or anyone else, to enforce our morality on grown adults making a consensual transaction.

    The whole model isn't about improving the welfare of the women involved. It's about using the force of government to say how awful men are.

    Pretty much agree with that. As usual, I ask what problems any laws on prostitution are meant to fix:
    1) Protect prostitutes (either female or male) from danger and exploitation
    2) Protect society (e.g. children)
    3) Decrease sexual health risks for both prostitute and client
    4) Decrease a nebulous moral 'problem' to do with sex outside marriage and relationships.

    It seems to me that our current laws, and the Scandinavian model, do not really address any of these. But neither are there easy alternatives, given the wide range of prostitution out there. From well-paid high-class escorts, to trafficked women: it is hard to find a model that fulfils all the objectives.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    corporeal said:

    Socrates said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @Socrates
    On point no 3

    I assume you feel the same about people purchasing narcotics?

    For narcotics which aren't excessively addictive, yes. When addiction is overwhelming, however, the question of "consent" becomes more cloudy.
    How about selling organs?
    An interesting question. I haven't considered the issue in depth before, so I'd have to hear the arguments from each side and think about it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    malcolmg said:


    Hurst , FPT re tax collection in Scotland. There are at least 2 tax centres in Scotland and the main one was always Tax Centre 1 in East Kilbride. They also collect tax for large parts of England as well. Depends who you work for, my tax centre is south of England.

    Thanks for that, Mr. G., my main interest though was where the computers are not where the data is processed. In sorting out the post independence mess, where the data is matters more than where the clerks are.
    They have multiple data centres, it is all outsourced mainly to Fujitsu and Cap Gemini. I am not sure of all the locations.

    Thanks, Mr. G.. I have a feeling that mundane issues such as these are going to where the real
    stumbling blocks will lie in any post independence vote negotiations. The big stuff that everyone gets excited about (currency and Faslane/Coulport) are pretty easy to resolve by comparison to such issues as where and how Mr. Brooke's tax returns get processed and the money remitted to the correct account. Then there is National Insurance, all processed through Newcastle as I understand it, and driver and vehicle licensing records held at Swansea.

    One last question, will iScotland have a written constitution? I don't recall seeing anything about it, but it may be quit important for an independent state to have some formal constitution arrangements.

    The minutiae will be a pain to transfer and take some time. From tax returns to moving pensions SOTB. It can of course all be sorted out but the law of unintended consequences will kick in on both sides leaving a lot of hassle for all and probably lighter pockets.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Socrates

    That's a fair point.....though if we set addiction at alchohol/tobacco levels, there would be few other drugs that were not permissible.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    MaxPB said:

    Cough....


    Oddschecker @Oddschecker
    From 80/1 earlier, David Moyes is now just 16/1 to be next Spurs manager. Would #THFC fans welcome the Moyesiah? http://bit.ly/1iS1PZh

    No thanks. Matinez has proved Moyes was rubbish at Everton as well by doing better with what is essentially the same squad. Over rated. Would prefer a foreigner with a decent track record that can whip these under performers into shape.
    It's not the same squad at all. They have Barry, Lukaku and Delofeu on loan and Barkley and Stones have emerged. Even getting shot of Fellaini is a bonus as he would have struggled with Martinez style of play.

    Having said that, I agree Moyes is crap and would be a disaster for Spurs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
    Incorrect. It is grammatically correct to say 'World Cup tournaments are held every 4 years'. It is equally correct to say that several thousand Romanians 'are held [for questioning]' every year. Neither of these indicate the event is ongoing in the present tense at the moment when the statement is made.

    You have been caught out and now are thrashing around to try and justify your position. It is not working and you are just making yourself look rather silly.

    There are lots of reasons for criticising the UKIP campaign (although that doesn't mean it won't work) but you had to try and be clever and have fallen flat on your face.
    A man who thinks that 26 million unemployed Europeans want his job shouldn't lecture others about looking silly.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    edited April 2014
    antifrank said:





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
    Incorrect. It is grammatically correct to say 'World Cup tournaments are held every 4 years'. It is equally correct to say that several thousand Romanians 'are held [for questioning]' every year. Neither of these indicate the event is ongoing in the present tense at the moment when the statement is made.

    You have been caught out and now are thrashing around to try and justify your position. It is not working and you are just making yourself look rather silly.

    There are lots of reasons for criticising the UKIP campaign (although that doesn't mean it won't work) but you had to try and be clever and have fallen flat on your face.
    A man who thinks that 26 million unemployed Europeans want his job shouldn't lecture others about looking silly.
    A man whose whole view of the EU question is based upon his ability to get cheap flights to his second home in Hungary should not lecture others about anything really.

    Edit: Oh and I am already competing with Romanians for my job. I just do it better than they do at the moment which is the only reason I get the work.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Scottish Tories must be worried about the Euro poll putting them just one point ahead of UKIP.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
    Incorrect. It is grammatically correct to say 'World Cup tournaments are held every 4 years'. It is equally correct to say that several thousand Romanians 'are held [for questioning]' every year. Neither of these indicate the event is ongoing in the present tense at the moment when the statement is made.

    You have been caught out and now are thrashing around to try and justify your position. It is not working and you are just making yourself look rather silly.

    There are lots of reasons for criticising the UKIP campaign (although that doesn't mean it won't work) but you had to try and be clever and have fallen flat on your face.
    It would be equally correct to say that World Cup tounaments are held every 4 years as it would be to say they are being held every 4 years as the meaning and fact is the same . They both indicate the present tense .
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Smarmeron said:

    @Socrates

    That's a fair point.....though if we set addiction at alchohol/tobacco levels, there would be few other drugs that were not permissible.

    I think the level of addiction required for which it is legitimate for the government to regulate would be below tobacco levels. However, just because it is legitimate to regulate on that basis doesn't mean it is sensible to. Even if a narcotic is highly addictive, we should also consider how practical it is to restrict, so there are multiple bars to justify such laws, in my opinion.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682





    Well clearly my A Level in English language is insufficient to tell any difference between "are held" and "are being held" , a comprehensive explanation of the difference would be welcomed .

    Clearly you are right and your English A level teaching was severely lacking if you cannot tell the difference between 'are held' (which can indicate a series of repetitive non current events) and 'are being held' (which indicates a current state of affairs).

    And given the fact that we can see from the data what the UKIP quote was referring to and that the fact-check backed up their numbers clearly you are being at the very best extremely misleading. Something we have of course come to expect from Lib Dem spinners down the years - although perhaps with more competence than you are currently showing.

    Are held and are being held are both present tense . If you wished to correctly describe something that occurred as a sequence of events in the past rather than distort the facts then you would have used a form of the past tense for example "were held" . You are struggling to justify something which you know to have been presented in a deliberately misleading manner .
    Incorrect. It is grammatically correct to say 'World Cup tournaments are held every 4 years'. It is equally correct to say that several thousand Romanians 'are held [for questioning]' every year. Neither of these indicate the event is ongoing in the present tense at the moment when the statement is made.

    You have been caught out and now are thrashing around to try and justify your position. It is not working and you are just making yourself look rather silly.

    There are lots of reasons for criticising the UKIP campaign (although that doesn't mean it won't work) but you had to try and be clever and have fallen flat on your face.
    It would be equally correct to say that World Cup tounaments are held every 4 years as it would be to say they are being held every 4 years as the meaning and fact is the same . They both indicate the present tense .
    But neither indicate they are being held at this moment - which is the meaning you tried to imply for the UKIP quote. Try again Mark.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    JBriskin said:

    Carnyx - It was anti-english racism. I don't know how you're finding the pubs in Scotland this year but I struggle to read any kind of paper in them.

    Mr Farage liked to pretend it was, but it most certainly was not, as press coverage made quite clear at the time.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Socrates said:

    @notme

    There are several foolish things about the Scandinavian model on prostitution:

    1. As the punters will know it's illegal to buy, the whole market has to get forced underground where it is unregulated, dangerous for the women, and likely to involve more trafficked girls.

    2. It is a recipe for extortion and blackmail if two people can carry out an act together, and only one person is legally responsible. The prostitute can then threaten to screw over the punter's entire life unless they are paid handsomely.

    3. While I personally thing prostitution is immoral and a mistake for both buyer and seller, it is not for me, or anyone else, to enforce our morality on grown adults making a consensual transaction.

    The whole model isn't about improving the welfare of the women involved. It's about using the force of government to say how awful men are.

    Pretty much agree with that. As usual, I ask what problems any laws on prostitution are meant to fix:
    1) Protect prostitutes (either female or male) from danger and exploitation
    2) Protect society (e.g. children)
    3) Decrease sexual health risks for both prostitute and client
    4) Decrease a nebulous moral 'problem' to do with sex outside marriage and relationships.

    It seems to me that our current laws, and the Scandinavian model, do not really address any of these. But neither are there easy alternatives, given the wide range of prostitution out there. From well-paid high-class escorts, to trafficked women: it is hard to find a model that fulfils all the objectives.
    Would a 75 year old man giving a £1 million engagement ring to a 20 year old woman be considered prostitution if they went to a bedroom where she showed her appreciation ?
This discussion has been closed.