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Trump still retains the support of MAGA but the trend is not his friend – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,405
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I work for Chinese companies, and have for many years on and off, and had a Chinese grandmother.

    I flatter myself I know a fair amount about China. I haven't been there but that's because I'd get into trouble by saying things Winnie would disapprove of.
    It is instructive, on that point, to note one of my largest clients is a Hong Kong based company industriously purchasing educational institutions in this country to transfer its assets away from Chinese control.

    This is because they expect Xi to try and nick their money in the near future and want a large chunk of it beyond his reach.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    edited 4:55PM
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I have been to China and my Canadian daughter in law promotes British Columbia with multitudes of promotional trips

    However, Canada has only just resolved a long dispute with China over spying and she was forbidden to go there

    Anyone who trusts China is foolish in the extreme
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,909
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    China wouldn't have risen quite so quickly without the short termismin our system. Most the IP was happily gifted by executives looking for a cheaper workforce and lax environmental regulation. China is not something that just happed to the west it was abetted by our greed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,454
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I've just come back from China. I was in and around Shanghai, and I actually went to Wuhan to see the infamous seafood market, and the "Center for Disease Control" (where they kept bats)

    In the past I have also been to: Hong Kong, Macao, Guangdong, Shenzen, Kunming, half of Tibet, Chongqing, Chengdu, Beijing, Guilin, Xiengeli-la, Balagezong, and many many more. I am right and you are wrong about everything, and I am also better travelled than your producer

    What was the argument about?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,071

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    China wouldn't have risen quite so quickly without the short termismin our system. Most the IP was happily gifted by executives looking for a cheaper workforce and lax environmental regulation. China is not something that just happed to the west it was abetted by our greed.
    Oh, sure. No argument on any of that. We are our own worst enemies most of the time. Doesn't make what they do right though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765

    One of the less well-known poll findings during the Vietnam War: If asked an open-ended question on American strategy, a fairly large number said we should win, or get out. (It's been a while, but as I recall, something like 20 percent came up with that answer.)

    It's pretty easy to define get out.
    "Win" much less so in the case of Vietnam, if it were even possible (it very likely wasn't).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,071
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I work for Chinese companies, and have for many years on and off, and had a Chinese grandmother.

    I flatter myself I know a fair amount about China. I haven't been there but that's because I'd get into trouble by saying things Winnie would disapprove of.
    It is instructive, on that point, to note one of my largest clients is a Hong Kong based company industriously purchasing educational institutions in this country to transfer its assets away from Chinese control.

    This is because they expect Xi to try and nick their money in the near future and want a large chunk of it beyond his reach.
    Odd they haven't bought Chelsea yet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765
    Trump prevaricating on NATO.
    He's not pulling out.

    In an interview with Reuters, Trump says: Will express 'my disgust' with NATO in his speech; says he is 'absolutely' considering withdrawing U.S. from NATO.
    https://x.com/idreesali114/status/2039332260030173323
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,703
    edited 5:00PM
    Iain Dale's 20 favourite places.

    Washington DC
    Sydney
    Switzerland
    San Fransisco
    Saffron Walden
    Beirut
    North Norfolk
    Ashdon, Essex
    Bad Wildungen, Germany
    Colorado
    Israel
    Budapest
    Rwanda
    Rome
    Dublin
    St Petersburg
    Norwich
    North Devon
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Key West

    http://iaindale.com/articles/20-of-my-favourite-places-in-the-whole-wide-world
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,474

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    Nor can the USA.

    We’re not left with many moral options . It’s a sad state of affairs .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765
    ZELENSKYY to BBC: I believe that America is stronger with Europe. I believe that there's no NATO without America, and NATO doesn't exist without Europe.

    They should not argue who contributed more. This is not a competition. America and Europe are one civilized world with the same values. Any split in NATO will weaken both sides.

    We want to be allies with a strong NATO, where everyone respects one another and is ready to defend.

    https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/2039337894632906819
  • FffsFffs Posts: 117
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    This is a facile argument. I know lots of English (and one French!) person who have settled in the US, and love it there - by your logic therefore not a threat to us.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,703
    edited 5:04PM
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I've been there twice, in 2005 and 2010, and at those times it seemed to be moving in the right direction. Especially 2005.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,741
    Looks like Trumps demands have shrunk to zero
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,405
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I work for Chinese companies, and have for many years on and off, and had a Chinese grandmother.

    I flatter myself I know a fair amount about China. I haven't been there but that's because I'd get into trouble by saying things Winnie would disapprove of.
    It is instructive, on that point, to note one of my largest clients is a Hong Kong based company industriously purchasing educational institutions in this country to transfer its assets away from Chinese control.

    This is because they expect Xi to try and nick their money in the near future and want a large chunk of it beyond his reach.
    Odd they haven't bought Chelsea yet.
    They seem to be more interested in loss making or barely profitable assets that can be purchased nice and cheaply and may if the school goes belly up become prime real estate.

    So you're right, it's very odd they haven't grabbed Chelsea.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,454
    Andy_JS said:

    Iain Dale's 20 favourite places.

    Washington DC
    Sydney
    Switzerland
    San Fransisco
    Saffron Walden
    Beirut
    North Norfolk
    Ashdon, Essex
    Bad Wildungen, Germany
    Colorado
    Israel
    Budapest
    Rwanda
    Rome
    Dublin
    St Petersburg
    Norwich
    North Devon
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Key West

    http://iaindale.com/articles/20-of-my-favourite-places-in-the-whole-wide-world

    That's an utterly fatuous list, strewn with category errors. "Switzerland" is an entire country, "Saffron Walden" is a large village, "North Devon" is half a county, and so on

    It's like saying my ten favourite foods are

    Pistachio ice cream
    Heston Blumentahal's snail porridge
    Vegetables
    A classic British fry up
    Noodles
    My nan's chicken curry
    Pizza
    Beef Wellington
    Meat

    etc
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,741
    Nigelb said:

    ZELENSKYY to BBC: I believe that America is stronger with Europe. I believe that there's no NATO without America, and NATO doesn't exist without Europe.

    They should not argue who contributed more. This is not a competition. America and Europe are one civilized world with the same values. Any split in NATO will weaken both sides.

    We want to be allies with a strong NATO, where everyone respects one another and is ready to defend.

    https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/2039337894632906819

    Well maybe he should get into bed with Trump
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989
    Artemis NASA is live streaming now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3kR2KK8TEs

    Five hours to go! 80% weather will be ok to go apparently
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    Nigelb said:

    Trump prevaricating on NATO.
    He's not pulling out.

    In an interview with Reuters, Trump says: Will express 'my disgust' with NATO in his speech; says he is 'absolutely' considering withdrawing U.S. from NATO.
    https://x.com/idreesali114/status/2039332260030173323

    You just have to wonder how Trump has engineered what looks like a win for Iran, especially if the regime stays in place and the Strait remains closed or subject to tariffs

    He says the Strait is not his problem, but the rise in US fuel is a direct consequence of the closure of the Strait and until it is resolved the US itself will have high fuel prices

    He is insane and dangerous

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,851
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    We don't need to ally with China, but we do need to trade with them for both imports and exports, so we need civil relations. Not friends, not enemies but trading partners.

    Many of our other relationships are with non-democratic states with little respect for human rights such as KSA, UAE, Qatar etc. We should trade with them too

    Quite obviously our nearest neighbours are our best friends in terms of trade, culture and military concerns, and it is right to mend our bridges there.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,771
    So. Trump wants the Strait reopened as the condition to end the War.
    A Strait which wouldn't be closed but for the War.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,216
    ydoethur said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    China is at least consistent. Unlike Trump's America.
    Consistently criminal scum, in their current incarnation.

    At least America is only inconsistently criminal scum.
    My yardstick for judging governments is their policy regarding climate change.

    China: Building renewables like crazy but also still burning lots of coal: C
    USA: Building renewable generation but still determined to drill baby drill: D
    Russia: Couldn't give a toss: F
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,565
    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    ZELENSKYY to BBC: I believe that America is stronger with Europe. I believe that there's no NATO without America, and NATO doesn't exist without Europe.

    They should not argue who contributed more. This is not a competition. America and Europe are one civilized world with the same values. Any split in NATO will weaken both sides.

    We want to be allies with a strong NATO, where everyone respects one another and is ready to defend.

    https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/2039337894632906819

    Well maybe he should get into bed with Trump
    Don't be silly, Roger.
    He's engaging in diplomacy.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,741
    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    Good April fool from the Sunday Sport, via Guido Fawkes:

    https://x.com/i/status/2039225914848854058

    What you thought that was clever or funny?
    When's Paul Staines going to be linked to Epstein??
    i think he might be too old and ugly
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,763
    Brixian59 said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    Sinophobia

    Sad
    Islamophobia against the Uighur Muslims.

    Sad.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,401
    nico67 said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    Nor can the USA.

    We’re not left with many moral options . It’s a sad state of affairs .
    That is why we need to work independently, alongside like-minded allies.

    Not dependently with one.

    Having a single point of failure is never smart risk management.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765
    dixiedean said:

    So. Trump wants the Strait reopened as the condition to end the War.
    A Strait which wouldn't be closed but for the War.

    Genius, really.
    Serves Europe right for starting the whole thing in thd first place.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    ZELENSKYY to BBC: I believe that America is stronger with Europe. I believe that there's no NATO without America, and NATO doesn't exist without Europe.

    They should not argue who contributed more. This is not a competition. America and Europe are one civilized world with the same values. Any split in NATO will weaken both sides.

    We want to be allies with a strong NATO, where everyone respects one another and is ready to defend.

    https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/2039337894632906819

    Well maybe he should get into bed with Trump
    Zelensky is fighting to save his country from Russian aggression and you attack him
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989

    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.

    Tactics over strategy.

    US winning tactically militarily but to what purpose?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,752
    scampi25 said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    China is at least consistent. Unlike Trump's America.
    What is consistent about China signing up to "one country two systems" and then going back on their word less than thirty years on?

    It's comforting to think that we can deal with Trump by swapping a close relationship with one large country for another, but life isn't that simple. We need to distance ourselves from China too, because they are willing to use our trade dependence against us.
    It's the same with the EU. I speak with sadness but they're not especially reliable allies and some don't even pay a fair share to NATO. Living without the US alliance may well be necessary but it won't be cheap and we're years from being ready as is most of Europe. It means some seriously hard choices on both tax and welfare for a long time -I doubt very much if the will is there on the part of the politicians or the people
    Nobody pays money to NATO. That's not how NATO works.

    Since 2014, NATO are supposed to spend a certain portion of their GDP (2%) on defence. Some European countries -like the Baltic States- do, others do not. And some countries -like the US- include healthcare for veterans in their defence spending numbers, making it difficult to compare between countries too.

    Nevertheless, thanks to Ukraine, pretty much everyone is on the right path.
  • berberian_knowsberberian_knows Posts: 155

    dixiedean said:

    scampi25 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Bill Kristol thinks leaving NATO will be announced tonight to distract the media as he also announces TACO and leaving the war in Iran with fuck all to show for it.



    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    I assume that tonight Trump will head for the exits in Iran. He may try to disguise the retreat by announcing the U.S. is leaving NATO, which Trump will present as a liberation from ungrateful allies and a victory for America First.

    So he'll make a bad outcome far worse.

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/2039319726954832002

    Constitutionally he doesn’t have the power to withdraw from NATO but he’ll do it via executive order then wait for the Supreme Court to rule in 2028.
    Total nightmare for the rest of NATO especially Brits. Do we continue working with US military because the exec order to leave is illegal and not backed by Congress or do we withdraw all co-operation assuming it is valid?
    We need to start playing hardball.
    With what?????
    With that which we have.
    Bases for starters.
    And a Royal visit.
    Yes the question of the future of US bases is quite a significant lever. How could the US claim to be entitled to maintain bases on European territory if it is not prepared to use those bases to (convincingly) help guarantee European security?
    I am not a fan of massive US bases on our soil. However, being familiar with a few places that have lost military bases, I think we should be conscious of what we're wishing for.
    A faster Nation Express coach from Cambridge to Norwich
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,083
    Andy_JS said:

    Iain Dale's 20 favourite places.

    Washington DC
    Sydney
    Switzerland
    San Fransisco
    Saffron Walden
    Beirut
    North Norfolk
    Ashdon, Essex
    Bad Wildungen, Germany
    Colorado
    Israel
    Budapest
    Rwanda
    Rome
    Dublin
    St Petersburg
    Norwich
    North Devon
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Key West

    http://iaindale.com/articles/20-of-my-favourite-places-in-the-whole-wide-world

    Two most excellent choices on that list
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,401
    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. Trump wants the Strait reopened as the condition to end the War.
    A Strait which wouldn't be closed but for the War.

    Genius, really.
    Serves Europe right for starting the whole thing in thd first place.
    A Swift resolution to this conflict.

    https://youtu.be/3tmd-ClpJxA
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765

    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.

    Same energy.

    Rep. Rich McCormick: "We were horrible in Vietnam until we did Rolling Thunder One and Rolling Thunder Two, and then we won. As soon as we do half-measures, we lose. The faster we get this over the better. If we seize Kharg Island, it's technically boots on the ground. It could be done almost flawlessly. If we have enough firepower, it would be very easy to defend."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2039090265122574644
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,820
    MelonB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Mail has a report today on how work has started at Mount Rushmore to add Trump's face.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15696415/Taking-shape-new-face-Mount-Rushmore.html

    April fool.
    Not 100%.
    MAGA are genuinely making plans - though he'll be long gone before any serious work could start, so absent the new dictatorship after 2028, it won't happen.
    Stone Mountain would be more suitable.
    Isn’t the MAGA aesthetic more Stone Island?
    But I've been thinking recently, re MAGA, how Lost Cause ethic animates and underlies it. Two of them actually. The original Civil War and its later refighting in the Civil Rights battles of the 60s and the 70s. Those defeats (for white supremacy and traditional gender roles) have not been come to terms with. Things which many people thought were settled are not. So a third battle looms. Hopefully it will be more like the second one than the first. Fewer casualties and some great music.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,445
    Andy_JS said:

    Iain Dale's 20 favourite places.

    Washington DC
    Sydney
    Switzerland
    San Fransisco
    Saffron Walden
    Beirut
    North Norfolk
    Ashdon, Essex
    Bad Wildungen, Germany
    Colorado
    Israel
    Budapest
    Rwanda
    Rome
    Dublin
    St Petersburg
    Norwich
    North Devon
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Key West

    http://iaindale.com/articles/20-of-my-favourite-places-in-the-whole-wide-world

    Obviously not the place he was going to stand for the Tories at the last election but had to withdraw 😂😂😂😂😂

    He’s a fatuous prick.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,587
    ...

    ydoethur said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    China is at least consistent. Unlike Trump's America.
    Consistently criminal scum, in their current incarnation.

    At least America is only inconsistently criminal scum.
    My yardstick for judging governments is their policy regarding climate change.

    China: Building renewables like crazy but also still burning lots of coal: C
    USA: Building renewable generation but still determined to drill baby drill: D
    Russia: Couldn't give a toss: F
    The US is doing nothing different than China would be doing with the same resources.

    It's also utterly risible that a supporter of Britain's Net Zero catastrofuck is quite happy to award a pass mark to a country with 4,700 coal mines. Why shouldn't we let rip with coal mines then? Why shouldn't we get awarded your average 'could do better' pass grade? What is peculiar about our country that we should sacrifice our economy and freeze our grannies to get a starred A?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,728

    Artemis NASA is live streaming now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3kR2KK8TEs

    Five hours to go! 80% weather will be ok to go apparently

    Missed a golden opportunity to get Trump on it. "You'd be the best astronaut ever Mr President", then it 'accidentally' leaves him in space.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765
    rcs1000 said:

    scampi25 said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    China is at least consistent. Unlike Trump's America.
    What is consistent about China signing up to "one country two systems" and then going back on their word less than thirty years on?

    It's comforting to think that we can deal with Trump by swapping a close relationship with one large country for another, but life isn't that simple. We need to distance ourselves from China too, because they are willing to use our trade dependence against us.
    It's the same with the EU. I speak with sadness but they're not especially reliable allies and some don't even pay a fair share to NATO. Living without the US alliance may well be necessary but it won't be cheap and we're years from being ready as is most of Europe. It means some seriously hard choices on both tax and welfare for a long time -I doubt very much if the will is there on the part of the politicians or the people
    Nobody pays money to NATO. That's not how NATO works.

    Since 2014, NATO are supposed to spend a certain portion of their GDP (2%) on defence. Some European countries -like the Baltic States- do, others do not. And some countries -like the US- include healthcare for veterans in their defence spending numbers, making it difficult to compare between countries too.

    Nevertheless, thanks to Ukraine, pretty much everyone is on the right path.
    Some of us rather slowly.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/apr/01/us-royal-navy-jibes-are-uncomfortable-because-they-have-substance-pete-hegseth
    ...perhaps the most serious intervention has come from Gen Sir Gwyn Jenkins, the First Sea Lord, who has admitted the navy is not ready for war.

    Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet on Monday, he said: “According to the defence investigation that was completed last year, I will be ready for war by the end of this decade.”

    When asked to clarify if this meant the navy was not “ready for war” now, he confirmed he did not think so...

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,474

    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.

    Tactics over strategy.

    US winning tactically militarily but to what purpose?
    The Iranian regime will still be there and as far as they’re concerned this is a win .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,052
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I work for Chinese companies, and have for many years on and off, and had a Chinese grandmother.

    I flatter myself I know a fair amount about China. I haven't been there but that's because I'd get into trouble by saying things Winnie would disapprove of.
    China is a bit like Dubai - middle class and rich westerners make lots of money.

    You just have to ignore politics and morality while you are there. Otherwise you get hit, very fucking hard.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,703
    edited 5:26PM

    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.

    Tactics over strategy.

    US winning tactically militarily but to what purpose?
    If they've knocked out most of Iran's armed forces it has to count as a win for the US?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,405
    Nigelb said:

    A lot of the commentary is forgetting the fact that the US is winning.

    https://x.com/osint613/status/2039371881707434024

    Massive explosion hits 15 Khordad barracks, IRGC missile site in south Isfahan.

    Same energy.

    Rep. Rich McCormick: "We were horrible in Vietnam until we did Rolling Thunder One and Rolling Thunder Two, and then we won. As soon as we do half-measures, we lose. The faster we get this over the better. If we seize Kharg Island, it's technically boots on the ground. It could be done almost flawlessly. If we have enough firepower, it would be very easy to defend."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2039090265122574644
    Is it still before noon in the US, or is he just very drunk?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    Iranian president to release letter to US people in a few hours time

    Putting it in writing is one way to expose the shyster Trump
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,431
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    ZELENSKYY to BBC: I believe that America is stronger with Europe. I believe that there's no NATO without America, and NATO doesn't exist without Europe.

    They should not argue who contributed more. This is not a competition. America and Europe are one civilized world with the same values. Any split in NATO will weaken both sides.

    We want to be allies with a strong NATO, where everyone respects one another and is ready to defend.

    https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/2039337894632906819

    Well maybe he should get into bed with Trump
    He should have fucked over Hunter Biden when he had the chance. Greater good and all that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,086

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    It will also prompt us to answer the hard questions like how we can rebuild our own defence industries, how and where we should spend our defence budgets. Whereas in the current half in half out purgatory those decisions inevitably get hit by paralysis and doubt.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,086

    Iranian president to release letter to US people in a few hours time

    Putting it in writing is one way to expose the shyster Trump

    Nothing exposes him.

    90% of the world don't believe a word Trump says anyway. The remaining 10%, including 40% of Americans will believe every word he says regardless of evidence to the contrary.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,401
    @dixiedean Independence and working with others is absolutely not oxymoronic and is indeed a very sensible way to operate quite often.

    How do independent bars and restaurants get their alcohol? They work with breweries, buying their stock from them, on typically far better commercial terms than tied pubs can. While maintaining their own operational and commercial independence.

    Currently the UK is tied to the USA and that is causing problems. We should not aim to switch that to being tied to Europe, or China, or anyone else.

    We should be independent. Able to work with others, where we can mutually find it beneficial, but not tied to any one point of failure.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,918
    I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the launch tonight, and noticed it's Live At The Apollo on BBC2 at 10pm.

    Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that's presented by Michael McIntyre.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 59,016

    I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the launch tonight, and noticed it's Live At The Apollo on BBC2 at 10pm.

    Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that's presented by Michael McIntyre.

    They could at least have booked Dara Ó Briain...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,063

    Iranian president to release letter to US people in a few hours time

    Putting it in writing is one way to expose the shyster Trump

    And putting it in writing ensures that Trump won't read it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,565
    MilitaryBetting:

    https://x.com/CryptoCyberia/status/2039350785402675216

    Insider wallet on Polymarket that bet 500k predicting the exact time we first struck Iran just bet 800k on ground invasion of Iran.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,401
    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    We need to act in the world as it is, not the world we want it to be.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 23,021

    I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the launch tonight, and noticed it's Live At The Apollo on BBC2 at 10pm.

    Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that's presented by Michael McIntyre.

    Somewhere like a bar, or somewhere on TV?

    NASA have their own YouTube channel and there are a bunch of others who will be showing it with their own commentary.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,565
    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    European leaders, including Starmer, have inadvertently proved Trump right about Greenland. Bases are no good if the host country is able to veto what you want to do with them. You need sovereignty, like we have in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
  • CarrCarr Posts: 18
    Trump has threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Ages". How many Stone Ages does he think there were?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,851

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    I work for Chinese companies, and have for many years on and off, and had a Chinese grandmother.

    I flatter myself I know a fair amount about China. I haven't been there but that's because I'd get into trouble by saying things Winnie would disapprove of.
    China is a bit like Dubai - middle class and rich westerners make lots of money.

    You just have to ignore politics and morality while you are there. Otherwise you get hit, very fucking hard.
    Not just true of Dubai and China, but true of most of the world. Being rich and having a Western passport is the golden ticket in life.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,830

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,703
    Not a headline you necessarily expect to find in The Oldie magazine.

    "Why has goblin porn eclipsed literary writing? By Candida Crewe"

    https://www.theoldie.co.uk/blog/why-has-goblin-porn-eclipsed-literary-writing-by-candida-crewe
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989

    Iranian president to release letter to US people in a few hours time

    Putting it in writing is one way to expose the shyster Trump

    And putting it in writing ensures that Trump won't read it.
    LOL.

    Needs to make a very short Fox News type video.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961

    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    We need to act in the world as it is, not the world we want it to be.
    Quite so. The USA doesn't want to help others in NATO (even though ultimately it is to their benefit), and yet wants NATO to do whatever the US President tells it to do - that is not a sustainable position for an organisation, since even if the US was calling the shots, being that blatant makes it politically unfeasible for others to play along.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 62,052

    I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the launch tonight, and noticed it's Live At The Apollo on BBC2 at 10pm.

    Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that's presented by Michael McIntyre.

    Somewhere like a bar, or somewhere on TV?

    NASA have their own YouTube channel and there are a bunch of others who will be showing it with their own commentary.
    Just watch the NASA feed

    If you want details read nasaspaceflight.com on the side - you’ll have industry insiders live commenting.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989

    I'm trying to find somewhere to watch the launch tonight, and noticed it's Live At The Apollo on BBC2 at 10pm.

    Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that's presented by Michael McIntyre.

    Shurely shome mistake?

    Not exactly James Burke is he.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,445
    Looks like Cathy Newman has been hacked

    https://x.com/cathynewman/status/2039392607302713795?s=61
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090

    Iranian president to release letter to US people in a few hours time

    Putting it in writing is one way to expose the shyster Trump

    And putting it in writing ensures that Trump won't read it.
    The media will
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 854
    OT - Just remember that Republicans are about a third of the US electorate. On their own they win nothing even if they are 100% behind their party. They need a large section of the third (and increasing) section of the electorate who are Independents. Approval of Trump among Independents generally and on every suggested policy is almost as low as it is among Democrats.

    MAGA will not break with Iran over Trump. They will shift their positions to align with Trump's. However, what is happening is the numbers aligning with the MAGA 'brand' are slowly diminishing and those Republicans who are non-MAGA are slowly edging away from the admin due to its manifest near-universal incompetence
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,765

    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    European leaders, including Starmer, have inadvertently proved Trump right about Greenland. Bases are no good if the host country is able to veto what you want to do with them. You need sovereignty, like we have in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
    That's almost as stupid as the Congressman upthread.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 476
    rcs1000 said:

    scampi25 said:

    The UK should have nothing to do with China until China honours its agreement with the UK to maintain democracy and civil liberties in Hong Kong.

    China can not be trusted. It has demonstrated that with its own actions.

    China is at least consistent. Unlike Trump's America.
    What is consistent about China signing up to "one country two systems" and then going back on their word less than thirty years on?

    It's comforting to think that we can deal with Trump by swapping a close relationship with one large country for another, but life isn't that simple. We need to distance ourselves from China too, because they are willing to use our trade dependence against us.
    It's the same with the EU. I speak with sadness but they're not especially reliable allies and some don't even pay a fair share to NATO. Living without the US alliance may well be necessary but it won't be cheap and we're years from being ready as is most of Europe. It means some seriously hard choices on both tax and welfare for a long time -I doubt very much if the will is there on the part of the politicians or the people
    Nobody pays money to NATO. That's not how NATO works.

    Since 2014, NATO are supposed to spend a certain portion of their GDP (2%) on defence. Some European countries -like the Baltic States- do, others do not. And some countries -like the US- include healthcare for veterans in their defence spending numbers, making it difficult to compare between countries too.

    Nevertheless, thanks to Ukraine, pretty much everyone is on the right path.
    You misunderstood my point which was the cost replace an absent US A from NATO and defend ourselves effectively. To do that we'd need around 5% from each country and we're nowhere close. Without the US we're screwed in the short and probably medium term. Either way the full cost of an effective defence means lots of tax and cuts elsewhere. There's a reason why Starmer has sought to avoid a break with Trump. And he's still trying. And you know it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989
    Astonished to learn that James Burke is still alive.

    89 apparently.

    Major figure in my childhood obsession with all things space.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,445
    edited 5:52PM
    Brixian59 said:

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
    lol at BiB

    I’m sure you’ll also journey on.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961
    edited 5:52PM

    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    European leaders, including Starmer, have inadvertently proved Trump right about Greenland. Bases are no good if the host country is able to veto what you want to do with them. You need sovereignty, like we have in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
    It doesn't prove he was right, it proves when you work with allies you can do pretty much what you like (when you're as powerful as the USA), when if you treat them like pieces of shit and lambast them all the time they will find small ways to frustrate you (even if you're as powerful as the USA). In part because your actions make it politically difficult for them not to do so.

    You only need what Trump claims he needs if you don't care about alliances, solving a problem you created.

    Much like the opening of the strait I guess.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,405
    Carr said:

    Trump has threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Ages". How many Stone Ages does he think there were?

    To be fair, technically there were three - the Paleolithic, the Mesolithic and the Neolithic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 78,405
    Brixian59 said:

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
    May I recommend Barnard Castle as a place that would be worthy of a visit?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,989
    ydoethur said:

    Carr said:

    Trump has threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Ages". How many Stone Ages does he think there were?

    To be fair, technically there were three - the Paleolithic, the Mesolithic and the Neolithic.
    Yeh, but which one has he chosen to blast them back to?

    Could make all the difference.
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,445
    ydoethur said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
    May I recommend Barnard Castle as a place that would be worthy of a visit?
    It’s a wonderful place to drop into.
  • CarrCarr Posts: 18
    edited 5:55PM

    Bill Kristol thinks leaving NATO will be announced tonight to distract the media as he also announces TACO and leaving the war in Iran with fuck all to show for it.



    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    I assume that tonight Trump will head for the exits in Iran. He may try to disguise the retreat by announcing the U.S. is leaving NATO, which Trump will present as a liberation from ungrateful allies and a victory for America First.

    So he'll make a bad outcome far worse.

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/2039319726954832002

    Constitutionally he doesn’t have the power to withdraw from NATO but he’ll do it via executive order then wait for the Supreme Court to rule in 2028.
    Can't the SC order a stay in the interim?

    The notion (still posited by some) that Trump is putting it all on with his craziness and actually knows exactly what he's doing has surely taken a further hit with the NATO thing. This is in a different class from his promoting himself in jest as a candidate for the papacy, or saying he'll be re-elected in 2028, 2032, 2036, etc.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 58,565
    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/2039388568557076831

    NEW: Donald Trump suggests the King would have stood by him on the Iran war

    "He would have taken a very different stand [to Keir Starmer] but he doesn’t do that"
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,761
    edited 6:02PM
    FeersumEnjineeya said: "USA: Building renewable generation but still determined to drill baby drill: D"
    Energy consumption in the United States produced 4.8 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide (GtCO₂) in 2024 - a decrease of 0.4 percent from the previous year. U.S. CO₂ emissions from energy consumption have fallen by approximately 20 percent since 2005.
    source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183943/us-carbon-dioxide-emissions-from-1999/?srsltid=AfmBOooIPzyOVhTTKxZbLgX_aWm4n8ZKZMhO5LUOsU0COo9D6PiTReu2

    And we are finally getting serious about a nuclear revival. for example: https://www.terrapower.com/

    (For the record: Recently, my drafty sliding door was replaced by a much better one -- probably paid for by the local utility, PSE, and I can already see benefits from that. Soon I will be going to a presentation on TerraPower's new reactor:
    https://www.terrapower.com/

    For years I have been saying that, if you believe global warming is a serious problem -- and can do arithmetic -- you will favor more nuclear power. But that doesn't mean I don't favor more power from renewables, too. Power to the people, I say!)
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,761
    Here are some numbers on NATO from two sources:

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/econographics/whos-at-2-percent-look-how-nato-allies-have-increased-their-defense-spending-since-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

    https://www.nato.int/content/dam/nato/webready/documents/finance/def-exp-2025-en.pdf

    Single sentence summary: Putin’s invasion of Ukraine inspired almost all NATO nations to increase defense spending; most are now above the 2 percent target.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961
    Carr said:

    Bill Kristol thinks leaving NATO will be announced tonight to distract the media as he also announces TACO and leaving the war in Iran with fuck all to show for it.



    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    I assume that tonight Trump will head for the exits in Iran. He may try to disguise the retreat by announcing the U.S. is leaving NATO, which Trump will present as a liberation from ungrateful allies and a victory for America First.

    So he'll make a bad outcome far worse.

    https://x.com/BillKristol/status/2039319726954832002

    Constitutionally he doesn’t have the power to withdraw from NATO but he’ll do it via executive order then wait for the Supreme Court to rule in 2028.
    Can't the SC order a stay in the interim?

    The notion (still posited by some) that Trump is putting it all on with his craziness and actually knows exactly what he's doing has surely taken a further hit with the NATO thing. This is in a different class from his promoting himself in jest as a candidate for the papacy, or saying he'll be re-elected in 2028, 2032, 2036, etc.
    Withdrawing from NATO is not just a Trump thing, it is increasingly a GOP thing (thought it didn't used to be). Which means the SC slow walking it would become more of a possibility.

    But I imagine the plan would be to take various actions which hobble NATO in practice, even if he does not leave officially - like how he might not be able to shut down USAID, as it was set up by Act of Congress, but has effectively shut it down by removing all its budget?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    edited 6:03PM
    Brixian59 said:

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
    China is as dangerous as Russia and other malign actors

    Our Canadian daughter in law was banned from her work in China by the Chinese when they fell out over spying

    NATO including Canada and adding Australia and Japan is the way forward, as is maintaining a relationship with the US no matter how hard it is over the next couple of years even with the idiotic Trump
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    The Chinese regime are genocidal, big brother maniacs who have destroyed our industrial base by stealing IP and undercutting our producers, who have no interest whatsoever in any of the principles that we stand for and, for good measure, have the biggest bubble in the history of the world.

    I will give you that they are pretty consistent in all of these points but consistency can be overrated, even in the time of the Donald.
    I wonder how many of the six people who liked David's post have even been to China let alone have spent a serious amount of time there. One of the three I know was my producer and I know no one who is better travelled than him and he likes everything about it
    Roger, you are old enough to have met many of those who used to visit Apartheid SA and be so keen to tell us what a wonderful country it was. If you go into a foreign country, are treated with respect and turn a blind eye as to how it is for those who are not so fortunate it is quite easy to be enthusiastic. But its not right.
    Didn't some people even try to go to Kampuchea to talk about it was good actually? Didn't work out in that case though.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,474
    The sooner we move on from NATO the better .

    Call it delusion or denial Europe needs to wake up and get its own house in order . There’s no excuse . The public also need to wake up to the reality .

    Seeing European politicians stand there pretending NATO still exists is now just embarrassing.

    Does anyone seriously think the US would honour Article 5 ?

    And it’s also tragic seeing European politicians making themselves look pathetically weak by suggesting we’re all fxcked if the US pulls out of NATO.

    Europe is not some third world poverty sticken place . If Europe wants to it can act and can find the resources to do so.


  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,782

    Here are some numbers on NATO from two sources:

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/econographics/whos-at-2-percent-look-how-nato-allies-have-increased-their-defense-spending-since-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

    https://www.nato.int/content/dam/nato/webready/documents/finance/def-exp-2025-en.pdf

    Single sentence summary: Putin’s invasion of Ukraine inspired almost all NATO nations to increase defense spending; most are now above the 2 percent target.

    Still pathetic. It needs to be stuffed least 3pc excluding pensions
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,961
    nico67 said:

    The sooner we move on from NATO the better .

    Call it delusion or denial Europe needs to wake up and get its own house in order . There’s no excuse . The public also need to wake up to the reality .

    Seeing European politicians stand there pretending NATO still exists is now just embarrassing.

    Does anyone seriously think the US would honour Article 5 ?

    And it’s also tragic seeing European politicians making themselves look pathetically weak by suggesting we’re all fxcked if the US pulls out of NATO.

    Europe is not some third world poverty sticken place . If Europe wants to it can act and can find the resources to do so.


    It - we - are not prepared for the budgetary choices that would require, not with the anemic at best growth of most of the continent. Many are even giving up on the idea of economic growth at all.

    The end of NATO will not result in Europe and the UK stepping up, which is a shame because it is coming. Maybe not officially for some time, but even with a few tricky members already, too many cannot trust each other now.

    Interesting really, as initially Ukraine saw NATO gain new relevance.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    nico67 said:

    The sooner we move on from NATO the better .

    Call it delusion or denial Europe needs to wake up and get its own house in order . There’s no excuse . The public also need to wake up to the reality .

    Seeing European politicians stand there pretending NATO still exists is now just embarrassing.

    Does anyone seriously think the US would honour Article 5 ?

    And it’s also tragic seeing European politicians making themselves look pathetically weak by suggesting we’re all fxcked if the US pulls out of NATO.

    Europe is not some third world poverty sticken place . If Europe wants to it can act and can find the resources to do so.


    With respect that is delusional

    US military arms and aircraft are intrinsically tied into European defence and it would take decades to change that

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 59,016
    Carr said:

    Trump has threatened to bomb Iran "back to the Stone Ages". How many Stone Ages does he think there were?

    The entity most likely to be revisiting the Stone Age is an America that needs multi-trillion $ this year to revolve debt.

    If everyone Trump has belittled goes on a boycott of buying US bonds, then America would be dependent upon Israel and Russia saving their sorry ass.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,401
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    European leaders, including Starmer, have inadvertently proved Trump right about Greenland. Bases are no good if the host country is able to veto what you want to do with them. You need sovereignty, like we have in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
    It doesn't prove he was right, it proves when you work with allies you can do pretty much what you like (when you're as powerful as the USA), when if you treat them like pieces of shit and lambast them all the time they will find small ways to frustrate you (even if you're as powerful as the USA). In part because your actions make it politically difficult for them not to do so.

    You only need what Trump claims he needs if you don't care about alliances, solving a problem you created.

    Much like the opening of the strait I guess.

    Trump could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue, shoot someone, and our william would try and sanewash it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090

    Brixian59 said:

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful

    Fffs said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Roger said:

    The UK need to get close to China. They value stability above all else. Hopefully from a leading position in the EU. The US are a pirate state and we must cut ties.

    That is offensive to pirates.
    Spot on Roger

    Who fears China the most?

    Trump
    Putin
    Netanyahu

    We have nothing to fear from China, everything to gain.
    Brixian has posted some partisan claptrap (and plenty of non-claptrap!) but never anything acitvely dangerous - until now.

    If you think China isn't by far the biggest long term threat to the European way of life you need to wake up now. The prospect of a world in which China provides the security guarantees in the Middle East should scare the life out of you.

    If Brixian is representative of the Labour Party more generally then quite frankly god help us all.
    I do not believe that Starmer and the labour party would see his contributions as helpful
    I'm often partisan

    I genuinely see China as a potential ally
    China is as dangerous as Russia and other malign actors

    Our Canadian daughter in law was banned from her work in China by the Chinese when they fell out over spying

    NATO including Canada and adding Australia and Japan is the way forward, as is maintaining a relationship with the US no matter how hard it is over the next couple of years even with the idiotic Trump
    Just to qualify that

    Canada fell out with China not our daughter in law, but her role in China ceased
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 7,474

    nico67 said:

    The sooner we move on from NATO the better .

    Call it delusion or denial Europe needs to wake up and get its own house in order . There’s no excuse . The public also need to wake up to the reality .

    Seeing European politicians stand there pretending NATO still exists is now just embarrassing.

    Does anyone seriously think the US would honour Article 5 ?

    And it’s also tragic seeing European politicians making themselves look pathetically weak by suggesting we’re all fxcked if the US pulls out of NATO.

    Europe is not some third world poverty sticken place . If Europe wants to it can act and can find the resources to do so.


    With respect that is delusional

    US military arms and aircraft are intrinsically tied into European defence and it would take decades to change that

    If there’s the will it can be done much more quickly .The delusion is the attitude of European leaders who think just playing for time might see a more pro NATO administration.

    As a French politician suggested European defence can’t be determined by swing voters in Wisconsin every 4 years .
  • TazTaz Posts: 26,445

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien

    People need to understand that it is a good thing if Trump threatens to leave NATO and says the US will not fight for Europe. The truth was the alliance was dead the moment he became president again. The US under him would never fight to defend Europe from Russia. Pretending otherwise was dangerous.

    https://x.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/2039387680400638301

    This is absolutely right. He's been looking for a pretext and has manufactured one - I guess threatening to invade Greenland still did not persuade enough people - and that is unfortuante, but when 40% of the USA agrees with seeing NATO as tantamount to being an enemy, a break was clearly inevitable, even if Trump were to go tomorrow.

    I didn't want a new order, but it has to happen for everyone's sake.
    European leaders, including Starmer, have inadvertently proved Trump right about Greenland. Bases are no good if the host country is able to veto what you want to do with them. You need sovereignty, like we have in Cyprus and Gibraltar.
    It doesn't prove he was right, it proves when you work with allies you can do pretty much what you like (when you're as powerful as the USA), when if you treat them like pieces of shit and lambast them all the time they will find small ways to frustrate you (even if you're as powerful as the USA). In part because your actions make it politically difficult for them not to do so.

    You only need what Trump claims he needs if you don't care about alliances, solving a problem you created.

    Much like the opening of the strait I guess.

    Trump could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue, shoot someone, and our william would try and sanewash it.
    Just as you would with the IDF.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 71,090
    It is rather telling that in all this talk of closer ties with Europe, it is individual European leaders who are acting arbitrarily and not as the EU

    Italy and Spain differ from Germany and France and others with Ursula von der Leyen marginalised
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,782

    Here are some numbers on NATO from two sources:

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/econographics/whos-at-2-percent-look-how-nato-allies-have-increased-their-defense-spending-since-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/

    https://www.nato.int/content/dam/nato/webready/documents/finance/def-exp-2025-en.pdf

    Single sentence summary: Putin’s invasion of Ukraine inspired almost all NATO nations to increase defense spending; most are now above the 2 percent target.

    Still pathetic. It needs to be stuffed least 3pc excluding pensions
    Needs to be at least
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