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Finishing last in Gorton & Denton – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,954
edited 8:01AM in General
Finishing last in Gorton & Denton – politicalbetting.com

My logic is simple, this doesn’t feel like fertile territory for a pure Rejoin party, as for the Lib Dems I am fully expecting Lib Dem voters to vote tactically en masse for the Greens to stop Reform winning, I think these bets feel value but others may disagree.

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,446
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    American AI boom latest: WSJ is now reporting that companies are converting retired aircraft engines into power generators. They have an actual lifespan well past their aircraft certified lifespan, and are getting a second life powering data centres.

    https://x.com/aniruddh_mohan/status/2023816253832417450

    Just engines and gas turbines are basically identical.
    They are a bit different.
    The fans are removed from airline turbofans when they're repurposed.
    Turbines purpose designed for power generation are larger, more robust and need less maintenance (and are optimised for running at a single constant speed).

    I guess absolute efficiency doesn't matter too much if you can get the plant up and running two to three years earlier ? The relative costs are less important than the leadtimes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,446
    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,556
    Morning all, More in Common sees a bit of a tightening and Greens leapfrog LDs but no increase in 'others' despite Ref dropping back. PM Rupert on hold

    ➡️ REF UK 28% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (-1)
    🌳 CON 21% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 12% (+2)
    🔶 LIB DEM 11% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    N = 2,108 | 13/2 - 17/2| Change w 10/02
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,753
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    American AI boom latest: WSJ is now reporting that companies are converting retired aircraft engines into power generators. They have an actual lifespan well past their aircraft certified lifespan, and are getting a second life powering data centres.

    https://x.com/aniruddh_mohan/status/2023816253832417450

    Just engines and gas turbines are basically identical.
    They are a bit different.
    The fans are removed from airline turbofans when they're repurposed.
    Turbines purpose designed for power generation are larger, more robust and need less maintenance (and are optimised for running at a single constant speed).

    I guess absolute efficiency doesn't matter too much if you can get the plant up and running two to three years earlier ? The relative costs are less important than the leadtimes.
    Aren’t these for backup generators anyway? So the comparator would be old fashioned diesel generators.

    I sat through a very interesting session on power in the data centre world last week. Ranging across everything from SMRs to grid connections to batteries. The scale of power construction alongside DCs in the US, largely renewable especially at the hyperscalers, is quite something.

    Also learned a new word: greenhushing. Businesses that continue to do things to improve energy efficiency and use of renewables, but keep it quiet for fear of provoking the US regime.
  • TazTaz Posts: 25,027
    I thought young people were largely in favour of mass inward migration 🤷‍♂️

    Why should skilled workers from overseas not apply for these roles ?

    I’m not sure striking all the time helps their cause.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    Taz said:

    I thought young people were largely in favour of mass inward migration 🤷‍♂️

    Why should skilled workers from overseas not apply for these roles ?

    I’m not sure striking all the time helps their cause.

    Not a good use of taxpayers money is it
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,327
    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,254
    On Topic

    Would have thought the Communist League will struggle to get double figures considering all the other left options available.

    No brainer if you are left of centre to vote Green to avoid a Reform MP
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,196
    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,389
    IanB2 said:

    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*

    I have heard from people on the ground in the seat that the Lib Dems are getting squeezed like mad, 'do you really want Reform and their candidate who says plenty of people in this seat aren't British to win?'
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,745

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    But we're told the NHS needs all these doctors from overseas to keep going.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,815

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,788
    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,446

    IanB2 said:

    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*

    I have heard from people on the ground in the seat that the Lib Dems are getting squeezed like mad, 'do you really want Reform and their candidate who says plenty of people in this seat aren't British to win?'
    Could well be true.

    But a couple of people I know in the constituency have told me they don't think Reform has much of a chance there anyway, FWIW.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,336
    On topic seems likely Ladbrokes lunch fund market with the number of oddball parties running alongside the more mainstream monster raving loony party.
    Who's voting SDP or Libertarian? Probably not even their close relatives.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,433

    Taz said:

    I thought young people were largely in favour of mass inward migration 🤷‍♂️

    Why should skilled workers from overseas not apply for these roles ?

    I’m not sure striking all the time helps their cause.

    Not a good use of taxpayers money is it
    Taz is suggesting we spend thousands on training young british doctors up, refuse to pay them a market wage at the end, export them to Australia, and then import lots of foreign doctors to take their place (who leave anyway after a few years after they have picked the requisite experience).

    A microcosm UK's economic and immigration policy. Boomernomics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,981
    edited 8:20AM
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Nothing to do with Brexit. Everything to do with this Labour government.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,535
    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,815
    Eabhal said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    FPT: It continues after that as well. My partner is stringing out her training as long as possible (reduced hours etc) because there is no guarantee of a job at the end, and even if she gets one she will take a pay cut. I don't understand how the NHS in both England/Scotland has got itself in such a mess.
    Combination of multiple policies interacting - and a desire to get staff as cheap as possible.

    That and a staffing policy mentality out of the 1950s. Which, strangely, results in 1950s style industrial relations.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,981
    Dopermean said:

    On topic seems likely Ladbrokes lunch fund market with the number of oddball parties running alongside the more mainstream monster raving loony party.
    Who's voting SDP or Libertarian? Probably not even their close relatives.

    They are so far outide the current political discourse, their supporters will do their own thing regardless.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    The bill is being held up in the Lords. Probably due to lobbying
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,527

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Nothing to do with Brexit. Everything to do with this Labour government.
    Indeed. Brexit does not prevent us from electing a government that makes it more expensive to employ young people.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,981
    edited 8:25AM

    IanB2 said:

    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*

    I have heard from people on the ground in the seat that the Lib Dems are getting squeezed like mad, 'do you really want Reform and their candidate who says plenty of people in this seat aren't British to win?'
    "Do you really want to be represented by a Reform MP? It'll crash house prices..." probably works better.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,336

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    No spoilers
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    All that does is incentivise them going abroad.

    TEchnically they still have to pay back the loan if they do, but as the SLC have never sued for repayment in a foreign court it effectively becomes voluntary.

    To pick up on an earlier set of posts, no party has clean hands on student funding. The Conservatives abolished grants and mooted tuition fees. Labour brought in fees, and then top up fees (having lied in 2001 by saying they wouldn't) and set up the Browne Review (and why on earth they picked Lord Browne, a man who if in front of a proper judge instead of David Eady would have been serving four years for perjury, I do not know). The Conservatives, in an act of insanity that is almost as incomprehensible, said they would implement the findings of the report without knowing what they were, and the Liberal Democrats, having said they would block it, u-turned for no obvious reason while in the Coalition despite being offered a get-out and voted for it.

    The result, unfortunately, is a massive cross-party mess. Oh, and because Browne was a moron as well as a crook, the university sector's finances are still a disaster. For some years they got away with it by taking international students who paid much higher fees. Then, in a stroke of sheer genius not given to all humans, the Conservatives clamped down hard on that and left them all facing bankruptcy (and damaged the private school sector as well, even before VAT came in).

    The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the further politicians, civil servants and supposed business executives keep from the education system, the better.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684
    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,815
    ydoethur said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    All that does is incentivise them going abroad.

    TEchnically they still have to pay back the loan if they do, but as the SLC have never sued for repayment in a foreign court it effectively becomes voluntary.

    To pick up on an earlier set of posts, no party has clean hands on student funding. The Conservatives abolished grants and mooted tuition fees. Labour brought in fees, and then top up fees (having lied in 2001 by saying they wouldn't) and set up the Browne Review (and why on earth they picked Lord Browne, a man who if in front of a proper judge instead of David Eady would have been serving four years for perjury, I do not know). The Conservatives, in an act of insanity that is almost as incomprehensible, said they would implement the findings of the report without knowing what they were, and the Liberal Democrats, having said they would block it, u-turned for no obvious reason while in the Coalition despite being offered a get-out and voted for it.

    The result, unfortunately, is a massive cross-party mess. Oh, and because Browne was a moron as well as a crook, the university sector's finances are still a disaster. For some years they got away with it by taking international students who paid much higher fees. Then, in a stroke of sheer genius not given to all humans, the Conservatives clamped down hard on that and left them all facing bankruptcy (and damaged the private school sector as well, even before VAT came in).

    The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the further politicians, civil servants and supposed business executives keep from the education system, the better.
    Most don’t run away abroad because of student loans. Right now.

    Under my proposal, if you get signed up, you are essentially paid by the NHS to go to uni, guaranteed a training place and a job after that. Not just no costs - given a stipend per year while in education.

    If you then compete 7 years in the NHS - all completely free.

    That kind of thing builds loyalty.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,433

    Eabhal said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    FPT: It continues after that as well. My partner is stringing out her training as long as possible (reduced hours etc) because there is no guarantee of a job at the end, and even if she gets one she will take a pay cut. I don't understand how the NHS in both England/Scotland has got itself in such a mess.
    Combination of multiple policies interacting - and a desire to get staff as cheap as possible.

    That and a staffing policy mentality out of the 1950s. Which, strangely, results in 1950s style industrial relations.

    That's by far the biggest issue. All the discussions around pay disguise it; I think if we offered Australian-style shift patterns, rest days etc then most NHS workers would be less militant when it comes to their real terms cuts in pay. And the quality of care would vastly improve too I reckon.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,389

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    The other problem was she spent the entirety of the leadership campaign (rightly) opposing any energy costs subsidies, then did a complete reverse ferret as PM with a plan which was much more generous than what was other people were suggesting, Jeremy Hunt reversed that as one of his earliest acts as Chancellor.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,753

    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.

    Yes, Lib Dems will be squeezed and probably lose their deposit, but not come last.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,644
    ydoethur said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    All that does is incentivise them going abroad.

    TEchnically they still have to pay back the loan if they do, but as the SLC have never sued for repayment in a foreign court it effectively becomes voluntary.

    To pick up on an earlier set of posts, no party has clean hands on student funding. The Conservatives abolished grants and mooted tuition fees. Labour brought in fees, and then top up fees (having lied in 2001 by saying they wouldn't) and set up the Browne Review (and why on earth they picked Lord Browne, a man who if in front of a proper judge instead of David Eady would have been serving four years for perjury, I do not know). The Conservatives, in an act of insanity that is almost as incomprehensible, said they would implement the findings of the report without knowing what they were, and the Liberal Democrats, having said they would block it, u-turned for no obvious reason while in the Coalition despite being offered a get-out and voted for it.

    The result, unfortunately, is a massive cross-party mess. Oh, and because Browne was a moron as well as a crook, the university sector's finances are still a disaster. For some years they got away with it by taking international students who paid much higher fees. Then, in a stroke of sheer genius not given to all humans, the Conservatives clamped down hard on that and left them all facing bankruptcy (and damaged the private school sector as well, even before VAT came in).

    The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the further politicians, civil servants and supposed business executives keep from the education system, the better.
    You're forgetting the change from Plan 2 to Plan 5, which lowered the repayment threshold and extended the time until write-off and made a bad system worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683

    ydoethur said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    All that does is incentivise them going abroad.

    TEchnically they still have to pay back the loan if they do, but as the SLC have never sued for repayment in a foreign court it effectively becomes voluntary.

    To pick up on an earlier set of posts, no party has clean hands on student funding. The Conservatives abolished grants and mooted tuition fees. Labour brought in fees, and then top up fees (having lied in 2001 by saying they wouldn't) and set up the Browne Review (and why on earth they picked Lord Browne, a man who if in front of a proper judge instead of David Eady would have been serving four years for perjury, I do not know). The Conservatives, in an act of insanity that is almost as incomprehensible, said they would implement the findings of the report without knowing what they were, and the Liberal Democrats, having said they would block it, u-turned for no obvious reason while in the Coalition despite being offered a get-out and voted for it.

    The result, unfortunately, is a massive cross-party mess. Oh, and because Browne was a moron as well as a crook, the university sector's finances are still a disaster. For some years they got away with it by taking international students who paid much higher fees. Then, in a stroke of sheer genius not given to all humans, the Conservatives clamped down hard on that and left them all facing bankruptcy (and damaged the private school sector as well, even before VAT came in).

    The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the further politicians, civil servants and supposed business executives keep from the education system, the better.
    You're forgetting the change from Plan 2 to Plan 5, which lowered the repayment threshold and extended the time until write-off and made a bad system worse.
    The system is so complicated in its awfulness you can't expect me to remember every bit of it within five hours of waking up.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,119
    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As with many things, the Labour govt is doing the right thing, but probably insufficiently and slowly.
    https://www.bmj.com/content/390/bmj.r1413
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    I would disagree that "so many students are literally foreigners" as virtually all UK Medical Students are British Nationals. A diminishing proportion are "White British", indeed only about 10% of the prospective undergraduates that I interviewed over the winter were, but that is a different matter.

    Of course there would be no need to have a complex bursary system if British Junior doctors got a significant payrise to cover the cost of their student loan repayments.

    Pay is just one of many grievances of our junior doctors, training places being the big one.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As far as I understand it these are applications to the specialty training programmes such as IMT. These have increased slightly which means Trust Grade jobs are now very hard to come by and locum shifts are much restricted (understandable) but what it means is that if UK grads don’t get on the speciality training programmes (increasingly hard to do) there are no NHS roles for them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683
    rkrkrk said:

    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As with many things, the Labour govt is doing the right thing, but probably insufficiently and slowly.
    https://www.bmj.com/content/390/bmj.r1413
    Labour's slogan at the next election:

    'Vote for us! We can be relied on to do the right thing after exploring absolutely every other course of action.'
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,644
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,621
    edited 8:41AM

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Day to day spending and some people getting very wealthy...

    And we come back to my argument that the Government should explicitly report 3 things separately

    1) Day to day spending
    2) maintaince of infrastructure
    3) new infrastructure investment

    So you can't bin items 2 and 3 in an attempt to lower tax bills without it being 100% obvious.

    It also means we can ask why 1 is increasing so rapidly in a way that answers can't be avoided.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120
    LDs could well come last if their voters tactically vote for Labour or the Greens to beat Reform. Ironically though the lack of clarity in which of the Greens or Labour is best to stop Reform in the by election in Gorton and Denton could enable Reform to still win it.

    Advance UK though if it gets a reasonable showing could take votes from Reform. The Communist League, Libertarian Party, SDP and Rejoin the EU will be hoping to avoid the humiliation of being beaten by the Monster Raving Loonies, as will the Tories who were only 5th in the seat in 2024
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450

    ydoethur said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    IIRC the Streeting was talking about doing something about this,

    @Foxy?

    I did hear that there was pushback at the “nativist” idea of absolute priority for U.K. grads. Seemed a bit colic to call it nativist, when so many students are literally foreigners, but hey ho.

    Pitch for my idea on NHS doctor training - increasing (year by year) NHS “scholarships”. Uni, training etc is free at point of access. Plus a yearly stipend. Training place guaranteed in the NHS.

    All is free if they then do 7 years as an NHS doctor. No repayments - paid off in chunks (in effect) by the NHS.

    If they quit early, becomes a loan for the remainder.
    All that does is incentivise them going abroad.

    TEchnically they still have to pay back the loan if they do, but as the SLC have never sued for repayment in a foreign court it effectively becomes voluntary.

    To pick up on an earlier set of posts, no party has clean hands on student funding. The Conservatives abolished grants and mooted tuition fees. Labour brought in fees, and then top up fees (having lied in 2001 by saying they wouldn't) and set up the Browne Review (and why on earth they picked Lord Browne, a man who if in front of a proper judge instead of David Eady would have been serving four years for perjury, I do not know). The Conservatives, in an act of insanity that is almost as incomprehensible, said they would implement the findings of the report without knowing what they were, and the Liberal Democrats, having said they would block it, u-turned for no obvious reason while in the Coalition despite being offered a get-out and voted for it.

    The result, unfortunately, is a massive cross-party mess. Oh, and because Browne was a moron as well as a crook, the university sector's finances are still a disaster. For some years they got away with it by taking international students who paid much higher fees. Then, in a stroke of sheer genius not given to all humans, the Conservatives clamped down hard on that and left them all facing bankruptcy (and damaged the private school sector as well, even before VAT came in).

    The only conclusion we can draw from this is that the further politicians, civil servants and supposed business executives keep from the education system, the better.
    You're forgetting the change from Plan 2 to Plan 5, which lowered the repayment threshold and extended the time until write-off and made a bad system worse.
    I’m on Plan 1 and 12 years after graduation the balance is still £20k with not a low interest rate. £500+ a month of additional tax I pay towards that and my later postgraduate loan.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,389
    The launch of the next PlayStation console may be pushed back as the technology industry grapples with a chip shortage that has been exacerbated by the boom in artificial intelligence.

    Sony is considering delaying the release of the PlayStation 6 until 2028 or 2029, according to reports by Bloomberg, as the Japanese manufacturer struggles to get the memory chips needed for the console.

    The scarcity of Dram, or dynamic random-access memory, has been stoked by competing demand from AI data centres.

    The PlayStation 6, the successor to the PS5 that launched in 2020, had been planned for release towards the end of next year. Sony has typically launched a new console generation every six or seven years since the original PlayStation debuted in 1994.


    https://www.thetimes.com/business/companies-markets/article/sony-playstation-6-launch-delayed-chips-shortage-rztj9r7mc
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,910
    Ratters said:

    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.

    January is quite a drop, prices fell by 0.5% and I'm not sure what this is down do apart from maybe a January sale effect after a rise in December.

    Prices rose by 0.4 and 0.2% last February and March, and then a massive 1.2% in April, so I would expect to see the annualised rate broadly stable over the next couple of months followed by a big drop driven by lower energy prices in April
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,800
    Ratters said:

    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.

    Core inflation was 0.2pp higher than the BOE's forecasts, thanks to persistent services inflation. A March cut looks baked in, after that I'm not so sure.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165

    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As far as I understand it these are applications to the specialty training programmes such as IMT. These have increased slightly which means Trust Grade jobs are now very hard to come by and locum shifts are much restricted (understandable) but what it means is that if UK grads don’t get on the speciality training programmes (increasingly hard to do) there are no NHS roles for them.
    I haven't seen a UK graduate apply for any of our Trust Grade jobs in over a decade.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,854


    I looked at the last 20 by-elections; see above.

    The Liberal Democrats have never come last. Even when doing very badly and losing their deposit, they've still been above the minor parties. Their lowest position was 2nd from bottom in Kingswood, where there were only 6 candidates. When there have been 10+ candidates, their lowest position was 7th from bottom. I don't think 100/1 is value.

    The Monster Raving Loony Party has stood in 14 of these elections and were bottom thrice and second from bottom four times. I think they might be value at 8/1.

    Rejoin EU has stood in 6 of these by-elections and were 4th from bottom 4 times, 6th from bottom once and 8th from bottom once. I don't think they're value.

    I also looked at the SDP. Out of 4 by-elections, they came bottom once. Maybe 4/1 is tempting?

    Independents and "no description" often come bottom, but we have none standing here. I don't think it's a surprise that the Communist League and Libertarian Party are favourites.

    DYOR.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    To an extent he concludes but she needed to do more on costs and spending to reduce it
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,800

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,640
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As far as I understand it these are applications to the specialty training programmes such as IMT. These have increased slightly which means Trust Grade jobs are now very hard to come by and locum shifts are much restricted (understandable) but what it means is that if UK grads don’t get on the speciality training programmes (increasingly hard to do) there are no NHS roles for them.
    I haven't seen a UK graduate apply for any of our Trust Grade jobs in over a decade.
    Strange. My girlfriend spent all last summer looking for Trust Grade jobs in absence of a specialty training programme and they were few and far between in the North East. That doesn’t seem to be a unique story.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684
    HYUFD said:

    LDs could well come last if their voters tactically vote for Labour or the Greens to beat Reform. Ironically though the lack of clarity in which of the Greens or Labour is best to stop Reform in the by election in Gorton and Denton could enable Reform to still win it.

    Advance UK though if it gets a reasonable showing could take votes from Reform. The Communist League, Libertarian Party, SDP and Rejoin the EU will be hoping to avoid the humiliation of being beaten by the Monster Raving Loonies, as will the Tories who were only 5th in the seat in 2024

    What is the lowest number of votes the LDs have ever got?

    Communist League got 27 votes when it was Manchester Gorton in the GE from a 46k turnout - and that was a good result for them!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165
    To be honest, if I were a UK medical graduate now, I would be off to Australia too.

    I did go there myself, and NZ, but came back in 1991, but the opportunities that I had to get into Specialist Training (albeit on sleep depriving hours) no longer exist. There's no way that I would have got in nowadays.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120
    edited 8:49AM
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    It is nothing to do with Brexit, Rishi left far lower youth unemployment with Hunt than we have now after Brexit, it is to do with Labour increasing tax, regulations and the minimum wage so much on business it cannot afford to employ people.

    So it is Labour socialism causing it not Brexit, whereas Italy has a rightwing government, Germany has a centre right led government, France basically has a centre right liberal government and only Spain is anywhere near as leftwing as our hapless government is at the moment
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684

    HYUFD said:

    LDs could well come last if their voters tactically vote for Labour or the Greens to beat Reform. Ironically though the lack of clarity in which of the Greens or Labour is best to stop Reform in the by election in Gorton and Denton could enable Reform to still win it.

    Advance UK though if it gets a reasonable showing could take votes from Reform. The Communist League, Libertarian Party, SDP and Rejoin the EU will be hoping to avoid the humiliation of being beaten by the Monster Raving Loonies, as will the Tories who were only 5th in the seat in 2024

    What is the lowest number of votes the LDs have ever got?

    Communist League got 27 votes when it was Manchester Gorton in the GE from a 46k turnout - and that was a good result for them!
    AI (so probably wrong) tells me LDs lowest result in a by election was Rochester and Strood in 2014. They got just 349 votes. And there were 8 candidates below them, with the lowest getting 22.

    Zero chance they are last.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,644
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Youth unemployment has been steadily increasing since summer 2022, which is harder to blame on Reeves.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    In F1 news it looks like Ferrari has a blown diffuser :o
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    The problem is mostly that the number of Speciality Training places has not increased with the number of UK graduates, with the exception of General Practice.

    Meanwhile the need for doctors has increased so we employ many more on "Trust Grade" local contracts and Speciality Doctor posts to bridge the gap. UK graduates never apply for these as they are seen as a career dead end.

    This means that these go to overseas graduates (mostly Nigerian, Egyptian and Indian Sub-continent). These jobs are eligible for a Skilled Worker visa and permenant residence. Once Permanent Residence is established they too are eligible to apply for Specialist Training. They are often better qualified than UK grads.

    Whilst emmigrating to Australia is an obvious thing to do, it is possible to get Specialist Registration via the CESR route by working Trust and Speciality Jobs, so is a viable option for UK graduates unable to get onto formal Speciality Training. Of course expanding the number of ST places is more obvious as a solution, but since 2007 the government has been reluctant to do this.
    As far as I understand it these are applications to the specialty training programmes such as IMT. These have increased slightly which means Trust Grade jobs are now very hard to come by and locum shifts are much restricted (understandable) but what it means is that if UK grads don’t get on the speciality training programmes (increasingly hard to do) there are no NHS roles for them.
    I haven't seen a UK graduate apply for any of our Trust Grade jobs in over a decade.
    Strange. My girlfriend spent all last summer looking for Trust Grade jobs in absence of a specialty training programme and they were few and far between in the North East. That doesn’t seem to be a unique story.
    It must vary by speciality. Paradoxically it may be better to do a Trust Grade job in a different speciality as Speciality Training programmes sometimes bar applicants with more than a years experience from applying!
  • wembleytorwembleytor Posts: 13

    IanB2 said:

    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*

    I have heard from people on the ground in the seat that the Lib Dems are getting squeezed like mad, 'do you really want Reform and their candidate who says plenty of people in this seat aren't British to win?'
    Jackie Pearcey is a perennial Lib Dem candidate in the area, 4 runs at the previous Manchester Gorton. She was on the ballot paper the first time I ever voted in 2001, coming second to Gerald Kaufman.

    We've seen squeezes to take major parties under 1%, but how many votes is last place in an 11 horse race? 50? Even for a longshot, it'd need at least a Liberal party candidate adjacent on the ballot paper to stand a chance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,815
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    FPT: It continues after that as well. My partner is stringing out her training as long as possible (reduced hours etc) because there is no guarantee of a job at the end, and even if she gets one she will take a pay cut. I don't understand how the NHS in both England/Scotland has got itself in such a mess.
    Combination of multiple policies interacting - and a desire to get staff as cheap as possible.

    That and a staffing policy mentality out of the 1950s. Which, strangely, results in 1950s style industrial relations.

    That's by far the biggest issue. All the discussions around pay disguise it; I think if we offered Australian-style shift patterns, rest days etc then most NHS workers would be less militant when it comes to their real terms cuts in pay. And the quality of care would vastly improve too I reckon.
    Instead, beatings will continue until morale improves.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 541

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Youth unemployment has been steadily increasing since summer 2022, which is harder to blame on Reeves.

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Youth unemployment has been steadily increasing since summer 2022, which is harder to blame on Reeves.
    Labour has certainly made mistakes

    Tories equally made mistakes

    This issue is a substantial trend.

    It's a shame that once again tribal tories are economic with the truth
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,139
    edited 9:01AM
    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/Agenda/

    TLDR: Neo-Nazi groupuscule.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,640

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Youth unemployment has been steadily increasing since summer 2022, which is harder to blame on Reeves.
    A lot of employers of young workers were destroyed by Covid or, more accurately, our absurd over response to it. But the current trend is being driven by government policies, not by Brexit. Brexit, if anything, worked the other way because there were substantially fewer European young people competing for the jobs that are available. You can argue the merits of that either way, I thought we gained from their presence personally, but it should have been a positive effect on employment for the indigenous population. Government policy does not and it has got consistently worse since Reeves took office.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 55,165
    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,090

    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.

    Corbyn might have snaffled most of the potential Communist League vote in Islington North though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
    Yes but given the majority of applications are from overseas now that is a far lower success rate for ST places than UK applicants
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,644
    kinabalu said:

    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.

    Corbyn might have snaffled most of the potential Communist League vote in Islington North though.
    Are you saying that, when it comes to mad leftydom, Corbyn is top of the league?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    edited 9:00AM
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
    And the ratio may be getting worse since that study. I understand that even GP training is now getting extremely hard to get onto, which just a few years ago was crying out for applicants
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,200
    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.


    But Brexit has removed a key source of funding, which the area desperately needs. County Durham received £154m of EU funding between 2014 and 2020, about £22m a year. Since the UK left the European Union, it receives about half that amount, £12m annually, under the UK Shared Prosperity Fund.


    Well done pit yakkers, you got the Brexit you deserved.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,120

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
    Yes but given the majority of applications are from overseas now that is a far lower success rate for ST places than UK applicants
    That isn’t the point. The point is that we (i.e. the country) have paid a lot of money to train our best and brightest as doctors to leave them unemployed. That’s a ridiculous state of affairs.
    So ban immigrants from overseas taking medical jobs then I presume, British doctor jobs for only British medical grads! Nige and Rupert would be proud of you!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450
    Dura_Ace said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.


    But Brexit has removed a key source of funding, which the area desperately needs. County Durham received £154m of EU funding between 2014 and 2020, about £22m a year. Since the UK left the European Union, it receives about half that amount, £12m annually, under the UK Shared Prosperity Fund.


    Well done pit yakkers, you got the Brexit you deserved.
    Yeah but the Pride flag isn’t being flown on the banks of the Wear anymore so worth it
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,090
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.

    National Rebirth. Without looking that sounds unapologetically fascist.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,139
    edited 9:05AM

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 541

    Ratters said:

    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.

    Core inflation was 0.2pp higher than the BOE's forecasts, thanks to persistent services inflation. A March cut looks baked in, after that I'm not so sure.
    Core inflation news is excellent.

    Taking out weather and climate impact on food and consumables and the first year of Trump this is a clear sign of genuine progress.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,854
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/Agenda/

    TLDR: Neo-Nazi groupuscule.

    The prefix "re-" is about doing something again. All these hard right parties share a vision that things were better in the past, so we need to "re-" something to get back to that situation.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,519

    Ratters said:

    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.

    January is quite a drop, prices fell by 0.5% and I'm not sure what this is down do apart from maybe a January sale effect after a rise in December.

    Prices rose by 0.4 and 0.2% last February and March, and then a massive 1.2% in April, so I would expect to see the annualised rate broadly stable over the next couple of months followed by a big drop driven by lower energy prices in April
    A drop in inflation is usually a tandem effect of an increase in unemployment / reduction in demand. It's always been cyclical but sometimes balanced out by companies seeking to export more. US companies in a similar cyclical downturn used to dump outside the US. But Brexit and Trump are new factors complicating matters in the short term. In the longer term companies adjust or go out of business.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
    Thats not debunked. Full fact say "Some may consider both to be millionaires, and others may believe that neither are."

    I'm in the former camp, you are in the latter. Most couples have shared finances.

    And that data is from 2018-2020, since then there has been significant asset inflation so may be true on an individual basis too.

    Regardless a large chunk of "where the money has gone" is into the hands of the richest 20-30% of pensioners.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,981
    Battlebus said:

    Ratters said:

    Inflation down to 3.0%, as expected.

    Perhaps more significantly:
    - Core inflation down to 3.1%, the lowest since September 2021
    - CPI is expected to continue to decrease over the first half of this year to around the 2% target

    I expect we'll see the BoE cut rates at least a couple more times this year.

    January is quite a drop, prices fell by 0.5% and I'm not sure what this is down do apart from maybe a January sale effect after a rise in December.

    Prices rose by 0.4 and 0.2% last February and March, and then a massive 1.2% in April, so I would expect to see the annualised rate broadly stable over the next couple of months followed by a big drop driven by lower energy prices in April
    A drop in inflation is usually a tandem effect of an increase in unemployment / reduction in demand. It's always been cyclical but sometimes balanced out by companies seeking to export more. US companies in a similar cyclical downturn used to dump outside the US. But Brexit and Trump are new factors complicating matters in the short term. In the longer term companies adjust or go out of business.
    Brexit is hardly a new factor! It is in its tenth year, soon to be its eleventh. If businesses haven't factored it in by now, they generally aren't going to be nimble enough to survive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,683

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/Agenda/

    TLDR: Neo-Nazi groupuscule.

    The prefix "re-" is about doing something again. All these hard right parties share a vision that things were better in the past, so we need to "re-" something to get back to that situation.
    The Refukkers lead to Rebirths?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,090

    kinabalu said:

    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.

    Corbyn might have snaffled most of the potential Communist League vote in Islington North though.
    Are you saying that, when it comes to mad leftydom, Corbyn is top of the league?
    Absolute icon of the space.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684
    kinabalu said:

    Back the favourite here.

    2017 GE - Islington North

    Monster Raving Loony 106 - Communist League 7

    Turnout 54,928

    MRL will be 100-250. Zero chance the LDs fail to reach three figures. Communist League may not reach double figures.

    Corbyn might have snaffled most of the potential Communist League vote in Islington North though.
    Possibly Corbyn took the other 8 votes, yes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,640
    In fairness, even this government has seen some of the blindingly obvious: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6g57j3meo

    The abolition of the different rates for young workers is being "delayed". Hopefully indefinitely or at least until we have a serious labour shortage.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,139

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
    Thats not debunked. Full fact say "Some may consider both to be millionaires, and others may believe that neither are."

    I'm in the former camp, you are in the latter. Most couples have shared finances.

    And that data is from 2018-2020, since then there has been significant asset inflation so may be true on an individual basis too.

    Regardless a large chunk of "where the money has gone" is into the hands of the richest 20-30% of pensioners.
    I think the clear definition of a "millionaire" is one person's wealth.

    If 2 people share a household wealth of £1m, then I think it is clear that they are demi-millionaires.

    Given the data, I don't see any need to reinvent the definitions for the sake of the argument; imo that will undermine it. Especially as the wealth numbers include all pension wealth, which is not equally accessible to all members of the household.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,815
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
    Yes but given the majority of applications are from overseas now that is a far lower success rate for ST places than UK applicants
    That isn’t the point. The point is that we (i.e. the country) have paid a lot of money to train our best and brightest as doctors to leave them unemployed. That’s a ridiculous state of affairs.
    So ban immigrants from overseas taking medical jobs then I presume, British doctor jobs for only British medical grads! Nige and Rupert would be proud of you!
    Alternatively, give anyone graduating from a U.K. university absolute priority for a training place.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,291
    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.

    National Rebirth. Without looking that sounds unapologetically fascist.
    Just to help with a visual aid this is a photo of them campaigning. The clothing and hair choices of a couple and the gulag might help work out their view on life. Cosplay Adolf on one end and man with secret urges for men in SS uniforms on the other.


  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,139
    edited 9:19AM

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/Agenda/

    TLDR: Neo-Nazi groupuscule.

    The prefix "re-" is about doing something again. All these hard right parties share a vision that things were better in the past, so we need to "re-" something to get back to that situation.
    Looking a little more, I'm inclined to think that Rupert will not be able to bear the weight of the neo- or explicitly fascist right who are dogpiling him.

    He's sailing far too close to ethnic cleansing of the UK.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,800
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Between the third quarter of 2022 and the third quarter of 2024, under the Conservatives, the unemployment rate for 18-24 year olds rose by 5.0pp to 13.6%. Since then, under Labour, it has risen a further 0.4pp, to 14.0%. I just thought the rant above might be improved by some passing reference to the facts.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,684
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
    Thats not debunked. Full fact say "Some may consider both to be millionaires, and others may believe that neither are."

    I'm in the former camp, you are in the latter. Most couples have shared finances.

    And that data is from 2018-2020, since then there has been significant asset inflation so may be true on an individual basis too.

    Regardless a large chunk of "where the money has gone" is into the hands of the richest 20-30% of pensioners.
    I think the clear definition of a "millionaire" is one person's wealth.

    If 2 people share a household wealth of £1m, then I think it is clear that they are demi-millionaires.

    Given the data, I don't see any need to reinvent the definitions for the sake of the argument; imo that will undermine it. Especially as the wealth numbers include all pension wealth, which is not equally accessible to all members of the household.
    Seeing as we are using full fact this morning, they have debunked your assertion and say it is unclear!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,640

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Pretty bleak description of East Durham:

    BBC News - 'Just push us into the sea': The frustration of an area failed by politics
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2136jnjx1o

    "In an effort to change their fortunes, residents voted for Brexit nearly a decade ago. Since then, official data shows the area has become poorer still and last May, people decided to toss the political dice once more by voting Reform."

    I wonder how these voters will feel after Reform's planned budget cuts, NHS privatisation etc.

    Youth unemployment is now higher in the UK than the EU for the first time since we started recording the figures, apparently.

    Another Brexit dividend.

    Fuck knows why anyone believes Brexit's chief propagandist can sort out the mess he created.

    (Also FPT, as somewhat on topic.)
    Youth unemployment is higher because we have an economically illiterate government who thought it was a good idea to increase the costs of employing somebody by increasing Employers NI, by increasing the NMW ahead of inflation, that increased rates for businesses forcing businesses to reduce other costs, typically labour, and who spent that money extorted from those businesses on making a life on benefits more attractive whilst doing nothing about the very poor effort our education system makes in terms of making them more employable.

    These are choices we have made and they are nearly all bad ones. None of them are a consequence of Brexit, they are a consequence of mind blowing ineptitude and incompetence. If you don't want higher unemployment, don't vote Labour. Its that simple.
    Between the third quarter of 2022 and the third quarter of 2024, under the Conservatives, the unemployment rate for 18-24 year olds rose by 5.0pp to 13.6%. Since then, under Labour, it has risen a further 0.4pp, to 14.0%. I just thought the rant above might be improved by some passing reference to the facts.
    You might try it yourself. Unemployment for 16-24 year olds is currently 16.1%, not 14%.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y6g57j3meo
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,327
    edited 9:22AM

    IanB2 said:

    I believe the LibDem candidate is reasonably well known in local political circles, with a track record - so betting on her to come in very last place is *bold*

    I have heard from people on the ground in the seat that the Lib Dems are getting squeezed like mad, 'do you really want Reform and their candidate who says plenty of people in this seat aren't British to win?'
    For sure, they’ll be squeezed, but for someone who might have a personal vote, if small, it’s bold to put them in absolutely last place. The LDs also bave a core vote in most seats, small though it may be, but that should put them ahead of the likes of the SDP
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,889
    edited 9:28AM

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
    Thats not debunked. Full fact say "Some may consider both to be millionaires, and others may believe that neither are."

    I'm in the former camp, you are in the latter. Most couples have shared finances.

    And that data is from 2018-2020, since then there has been significant asset inflation so may be true on an individual basis too.

    Regardless a large chunk of "where the money has gone" is into the hands of the richest 20-30% of pensioners.
    I think the clear definition of a "millionaire" is one person's wealth.

    If 2 people share a household wealth of £1m, then I think it is clear that they are demi-millionaires.

    Given the data, I don't see any need to reinvent the definitions for the sake of the argument; imo that will undermine it. Especially as the wealth numbers include all pension wealth, which is not equally accessible to all members of the household.
    Seeing as we are using full fact this morning, they have debunked your assertion and say it is unclear!
    I don't want to sound rude, but MattW is definitely right on this and anyone who perceives any ambiguity is clearly wrong. Any definition by which people who share a million pounds are all millionaires is nonsense.

    I do agree with you that the money has gone to the richest pensioners however.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,450

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    In 2021:

    9,710 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    6,913 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    In 2025:

    12,316 UK medical graduate applications to specialty training programmes.

    20,807 International medical graduate applications to speciality training programmes.

    No wonder UK grads now finish university, do two years on the job training as foundation doctors and then end up unemployed.

    Number of grad applications though increased for both UK and overseas applicants but the number of doctor and consultant training places hasn't. There are only 12,000 such training places a year and only 23% of overseas applicants are successful compared to 69% of UK applicants


    https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/imgs-increasingly-relinquishing-medical-licences-finds-gmc
    Yes, but that means 5 000 successful IMG applications out of 12 807 places, so over a 3rd of ST places go to IMGs.
    Yes but given the majority of applications are from overseas now that is a far lower success rate for ST places than UK applicants
    That isn’t the point. The point is that we (i.e. the country) have paid a lot of money to train our best and brightest as doctors to leave them unemployed. That’s a ridiculous state of affairs.
    So ban immigrants from overseas taking medical jobs then I presume, British doctor jobs for only British medical grads! Nige and Rupert would be proud of you!
    Alternatively, give anyone graduating from a U.K. university absolute priority for a training place.
    Remember these aren’t even fresh graduates. These are graduates who have completed at the very least the 2-year foundation programme post university.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,139

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Was Liz Truss right?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUo9wdifkg

    In today's ten minute monologue, Jacob Rees-Mogg addresses the question of our times.

    She wasn't right, so much as batshit crazy far right.
    It was just very peculiar.

    I'm on the right, the idea of tax cuts, promoting growth etc is all good. But you've got to analyse the impact of policies and changing rates of tax/revenue. You can't just make changes and cross your fingers.

    Maybe this is the saving grace of the OBR. For all its failings, it did for Truss in short order.
    She would I think have got away with the tax cuts if it wasn't for the massive unfunded income spending spree she went on at the same time with the fuel price cap.

    The markets operate, if not on Mr Micawber's dictum, at least the principle you lend money when you can see it will be going into projects that will generate a substantial return.

    Truss' plans reminded me of nothing so much as the post-Ruhr borrowing of the German economy under Stresemann - $11 billion borrowed commercially on five-year terms and spent on municipal grandeur (parks, stadiums, town halls) - and then of course, not paid back, leading to a major credit crunch and indirectly the Wall Street Crash.
    Though at least that left parks, stadiums and town halls.

    One of the nagging doubts I have about Britain's collective debt pickle is that I can't see where the money has gone.
    Pensions, the NHS, debt service and Brexit.
    Well over a quarter of pensioners have become millionaires too.
    That was debunked in 2024 afaics.

    The claim actually seems to relate "pensioners who live in households with a total household wealth of more than £1 million".
    https://fullfact.org/online/pensioner-millionaire-households/
    Thats not debunked. Full fact say "Some may consider both to be millionaires, and others may believe that neither are."

    I'm in the former camp, you are in the latter. Most couples have shared finances.

    And that data is from 2018-2020, since then there has been significant asset inflation so may be true on an individual basis too.

    Regardless a large chunk of "where the money has gone" is into the hands of the richest 20-30% of pensioners.
    I think the clear definition of a "millionaire" is one person's wealth.

    If 2 people share a household wealth of £1m, then I think it is clear that they are demi-millionaires.

    Given the data, I don't see any need to reinvent the definitions for the sake of the argument; imo that will undermine it. Especially as the wealth numbers include all pension wealth, which is not equally accessible to all members of the household.
    Seeing as we are using full fact this morning, they have debunked your assertion and say it is unclear!
    The assertion is:

    "One in five or one quarter of pensioners are millionaires."

    I think that qualifies as debunked.

    (I'm stopping there; we will not agree on this.)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,090

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    We missed one (I think) the other day.

    We also have a National Rebirth Party:
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/

    Here's the manifesto.
    https://nationalrebirthparty.org.uk/Agenda/

    TLDR: Neo-Nazi groupuscule.

    The prefix "re-" is about doing something again. All these hard right parties share a vision that things were better in the past, so we need to "re-" something to get back to that situation.
    And "rebirth" is at the harder end. It's saying we're not so much broken as dead. It also implies an embrace of fascism will be like having a baby.
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