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Rage against the machine – charting the rise of outsider parties – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,649
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    New Reform councillors in Kent thought they would find millions in woke spending at the council. Just like America.

    They didn't:


    Sunder Katwala (sundersays)
    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Reform councillors in Kent told the FT that they were surprised not to find lavish spending on wokeness from their predecessors

    https://bsky.app/profile/sundersays.bsky.social/post/3me3zgcqbvc2o

    Don't upset Taz, he lives his Durham Nazis.

    They keep his poll tax low...
    I would ask if you’re retarded but I know the answer.
    Retarded? You don't know the meaning of the word....
    You’re right. I looked it up in the dictionary. There was your picture underneath it.

    How’s about that !!
    Children - KNOCK IT OFF!
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 498
    I have been following politics for over 60 years. I have lost count of the times I've been told that Labour/the Conservatives (delete to taste) will never be in power again, or that the Conservative/Labour duopoly is over, that some other party will win the next election or that we will see permanent coalitions with no party able to win a majority. Somehow it has never happened. It may be that this time is different, but I wouldn't bet on it. Reform are going down in the polls. Labour and the Conservatives are on an upward trend, although recent events may push Labour back down again. And, unlike Gareth, I think the defections have been a net positive for the Conservatives. And, of course, the experience of Reform actually running things has not been good in many areas.

    As things stand, we are probably at least 2 years away from a general election. A lot can change in that time. It may be that Reform will turn round its current decline and hold on to the lead in the polls. But, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,757

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    New Reform councillors in Kent thought they would find millions in woke spending at the council. Just like America.

    They didn't:


    Sunder Katwala (sundersays)
    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Reform councillors in Kent told the FT that they were surprised not to find lavish spending on wokeness from their predecessors

    https://bsky.app/profile/sundersays.bsky.social/post/3me3zgcqbvc2o

    Don't upset Taz, he lives his Durham Nazis.

    They keep his poll tax low...
    I would ask if you’re retarded but I know the answer.
    Retarded? You don't know the meaning of the word....
    You’re right. I looked it up in the dictionary. There was your picture underneath it.

    How’s about that !!
    Dictionary's don't have pictures, unless they were picture books from primary school, just about sums you up.
    DictionarIES
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    How news is consumed is rapidly changing.

    These redundant hacks need to consider their industry is rapidly changing and what they need to move onto and drop the entitlement I’ve seen on social media.
    Would you say the same to those who run pubs or restaurants?
    I’ve not seen the whining entitlement from local pubs and restaurants closing down that I’ve seen from WaPo hacks.

  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    Bezos can afford to lose that much for hundreds of years
    But why would he want to sell Amazon shares, to throw good money after bad at a failing business?
    It's only failing cos he backed the Mad King. He drove away the people that wanted to read the paper, now he's killing the rest.

    If that's an example of his business acumen, investors should be concerned
    Well the latest AMZN earnings are out today so we will see.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,757
    edited 9:39AM

    stodge said:

    In the 2000s, there were few votes for outsider parties. The LDs took an outsider position on Iraq, but it would be hard to call them an outsider party.

    I disagree, in the 2000s the LDs were the outsider party. They were the pox on both your houses, none of the above, party.

    Yes their leadership were not that, but a very large chunk of their voters were.

    The Coalition fractured that. More than tuition fees, it was the very act of going into Government that destroyed what for many LD voters were the LDs very nature of being outsiders and making them just another establishment party.

    I remain firmly of the belief (both anecdotally and from data) that a large chunk of the 2015 UKIP vote were ex-LD voters.

    You can argue the same will be true for both Reform and the Greens IF either finds themselves in such a position after the next election.

    That's the thing about "outsider" parties - as long as they are on the outside, they can play that game but as soon as confronted with the consequences of their own electoral success (or the failings of others) they are forced to come "inside" and that, so to speak, taints them for all time (it would seem).

    The other side of it is to ask why a party is in business - I've never heard of a party whose sole raison d'etre was to shout in futile anger from the sidelines. No, people form and join parties to achieve policy goals whether social, economic or both. The only way to achieve those goals (currently) is through the electoral system in our democracy but once you have achieved that you then have to do some (not all) of what you promise and on that you are then judged at the next election.

    The Conservatives don't want to spend the next 10-15 years shouting at Labour and Reform Governments from the sidelines - they want to be there, in Government, enacting policies, enjoying "power" but as they know full well, the price of that power can be very high but do they want another go at Government? You better believe they do.
    We've seen across Europe how outsider potatoes get elected and then sink at the next election.
    'Outsider potatoes'? If that is
    autocorrect gone rogue it is glorious.

    EDIT: And if it is deliberate it is even better and should become the standard term.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,037
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    Bezos can afford to lose that much for hundreds of years
    But why would he want to sell Amazon shares, to throw good money after bad at a failing business?
    Why would Bezos buy the Washington Post in the first place? It buys him a place at the top table. It makes him an insider, not an outsider. The trouble is now that his wealth depends on not upsetting the President, owning a paper with a history of investigative journalism works best if its glory days are safely behind it.

    If it were just about money, Bezos could sell the Washington Post, or not buy it in the first place. He wants the prestige. He wants to be an insider. But he does not want Trump blocking Federal contracts because an investigative journalist writes about ICE ignoring injunctions. Trump brought Musk back into line by musing about NASA. You know who else builds rockets?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,652
    I'm getting bored now. Is Sir Keir resigning in disgrace or not?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,232

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    New Reform councillors in Kent thought they would find millions in woke spending at the council. Just like America.

    They didn't:


    Sunder Katwala (sundersays)
    @sundersays.bsky.social‬

    Reform councillors in Kent told the FT that they were surprised not to find lavish spending on wokeness from their predecessors

    https://bsky.app/profile/sundersays.bsky.social/post/3me3zgcqbvc2o

    Don't upset Taz, he lives his Durham Nazis.

    They keep his poll tax low...
    I would ask if you’re retarded but I know the answer.
    Retarded? You don't know the meaning of the word....
    You’re right. I looked it up in the dictionary. There was your picture underneath it.

    How’s about that !!
    Children - KNOCK IT OFF!
    Sorry Mum
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,037
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    How news is consumed is rapidly changing.

    These redundant hacks need to consider their industry is rapidly changing and what they need to move onto and drop the entitlement I’ve seen on social media.
    Would you say the same to those who run pubs or restaurants?
    I’ve not seen the whining entitlement from local pubs and restaurants closing down that I’ve seen from WaPo hacks.

    You did not read pb during the pandemic then.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,005

    I have been following politics for over 60 years. I have lost count of the times I've been told that Labour/the Conservatives (delete to taste) will never be in power again, or that the Conservative/Labour duopoly is over, that some other party will win the next election or that we will see permanent coalitions with no party able to win a majority. Somehow it has never happened. It may be that this time is different, but I wouldn't bet on it. Reform are going down in the polls. Labour and the Conservatives are on an upward trend, although recent events may push Labour back down again. And, unlike Gareth, I think the defections have been a net positive for the Conservatives. And, of course, the experience of Reform actually running things has not been good in many areas.

    As things stand, we are probably at least 2 years away from a general election. A lot can change in that time. It may be that Reform will turn round its current decline and hold on to the lead in the polls. But, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.

    Fair comments but 2024 was a change - Con/Lab won 59% of the vote and 532 seats which is still very high but a long way off the 90% they were getting in the 1960s.

    There's a tipping point (and we weren't far from it last time) where the dominance ends - probably around 50% and with current polling putting Con/Lab at 40% there's a reasonable argument more seats will be won by other parties.

    Yet we are two or perhaps three years off an election and we've seen this kind of thing before - UKIP polled strongly in the 2010s and the Alliance in the 1980s but even then Con/Lab still had at least 60%.

    There's also a volatility in the electorate we've not seen for a while.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,431

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    How news is consumed is rapidly changing.

    These redundant hacks need to consider their industry is rapidly changing and what they need to move onto and drop the entitlement I’ve seen on social media.
    Would you say the same to those who run pubs or restaurants?
    To those who rub puns, I'd say "You're a genieous"
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 580
    A very interesting article indeed - thanks, @GarethoftheVale2 Two points, if I may.......

    1. Don't be too quick to write off the Lib Dems as an "outsider" party. Yes, their MPs may all be as sleek and smooth as all other manifestations of "the blob", but out in the wild they have capitalised on the "plague on both your houses" idea long before it became a meme. Perhaps that might explain why their poll ratings are still so abnormally high - they are still taped in to the "sod the lot of them" vibe.

    2. I am about as bourgeois as it's possible to be on my income, mainly because I have strived to become as middle class as possible. However, I have a number of working class friends, of all ages and races, because I am a regular church-goer. From an anthropological point of view they are still very interesting places where "all sorts and conditions of men" (and women) get together and socialise. I can't think of any other forums in my town where that happens.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,037
    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,662
    edited 9:44AM
    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    I had a feeling the upshot of all this might be McSweeney being served up in a plater,
    Which means SKS has no one
    to pin the blame on for the
    disaster that will be the May
    local elections...
    The key will be the NEV after the May local elections, if Labour beat the Tories for second behind Reform it will likely be Kemi going not Starmer
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,538
    How do the Labour rules work when there’s a non anointed change of leader when in govt? Can we pay three quid to get a vote still?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    How news is consumed is rapidly changing.

    These redundant hacks need to consider their industry is rapidly changing and what they need to move onto and drop the entitlement I’ve seen on social media.
    Would you say the same to those who run pubs or restaurants?
    I’ve not seen the whining entitlement from local pubs and restaurants closing down that I’ve seen from WaPo hacks.

    You did not read pb during the pandemic then.
    Only part of it.

    I remember polling that showed around 20% of people wanted night clubs shut and never reopened.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,672
    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    It's an interesting trait of society that once a person gets into a high enough position, they're almost always protected from consequences of their actions.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,037
    edited 9:46AM
    Gorton by-election betting: on Betfair, Labour has lengthened from 6/1 out to 12/1 and back in to 10/1.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,510

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    It’s how he rolls. See periodic percentage staff culls at Amazon and Blue Origin.

    It’s a common theme in Big Tech firms - every now and again, fire 10%

    It very, very unsurprising.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,810

    What is this utter woke nonsense with the Six Nations starting tonight, A THURSDAY!

    And the Winter Olympics starting BEFORE the Opening Ceremony!
    The summer olympics do too - the football starts early as there is not enough time to get all the games in.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,887
    moonshine said:

    How do the Labour rules work when there’s a non anointed change of leader when in govt? Can we pay three quid to get a vote still?

    No. And unless you have been a party member for 6 months, you won't get a vote either. I assume that that time restriction also applies to those who are not party members but who get a vote thanks to being a member of an affiliated trade union who pays into the political levy.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,505
    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,810

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    How news is consumed is rapidly changing.

    These redundant hacks need to consider their industry is rapidly changing and what they need to move onto and drop the entitlement I’ve seen on social media.
    Would you say the same to those who run pubs or restaurants?
    I’ve not seen the whining entitlement from local pubs and restaurants closing down that I’ve seen from WaPo hacks.

    You did not read pb during the pandemic then.
    To be fair if the government forceably closes your business down, you have a bit of a point.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    I had a feeling the upshot of all this might be McSweeney being served up in a plater,
    Which means SKS has no one
    to pin the blame on for the
    disaster that will be the May
    local elections...
    The key will be the NEV after the May local elections, if Labour beat the Tories for second behind Reform it will likely be Kemi going not Starmer
    Sir Mel Stride. Now is your time.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,810

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,232

    I'm getting bored now. Is Sir Keir resigning in disgrace or not?

    Sadly not, I suspect.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,273
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    Bezos can afford to lose that much for hundreds of years
    But why would he want to sell Amazon shares, to throw good money after bad at a failing business?
    For the same reason he bought it?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    It’s how he rolls. See periodic percentage staff culls at Amazon and Blue Origin.

    It’s a common theme in Big Tech firms - every now and again, fire 10%

    It very, very unsurprising.
    That’s nothing new. Jack Welch at GE made a virtue of sacking, regularly, the bottom 10% in the eighties.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,473
    Excellent header, Gareth.
    I hope that Reform/Green are able to radically transform the country and make the elites bend to the Government’s will, but I don’t expect it to happen.
    In my opinion, a major issue has been the ever increasing centralisation that has taken place over the past few decades. This has concentrated power In Westminster, and therefore in the Civil Service, which, at senior levels, is the epitome of the elite. Decision making needs to be devolved to local authorities and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments. Within Scotland, there has also been far too much centralisation in Edinburgh, with the same corrosive effects as the centralisation In Westminster. This also needs to be remedied.
    Someone asked whether the SNP are now an insider party. I think they have been since 2014. The question in Scotland is whether the Scottish Greens are also now an insider party? I would argue that they are.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 69
    Excellent article

    My perception as of now

    Labour
    With
    Starmer can't win
    Streeting may win
    Burnham can't win
    Rayner can win
    Dark horse need to be soft left

    Tories
    With
    Badenoch can't win
    Cleverly may win
    Mordaunt can win
    Dark horse can't see a winner

    LD
    with
    Davey minimal scope to improve
    Daisy Cooper significantly improve

    Reform
    Simple it's a 1 man cult
    With him they might hold balance of power
    Without him they fragment to Advance

    PC and SNP

    Can both hold majority of Westminster MPs
    Won't supply or help Tories

    Green
    With
    Polanski will be a Red Party less and less Green bore and more left of Labour
    I think they have 1 chance 2029 after which they split genuine Green and hard left
    In many ways Polanski projects as a cult figure.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,431

    "We removed Mandelson in the middle of the night, so there" will be the Lab defence for hiring Sweetpea


    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    Given how often he's mentioned it, Steve Reed seems to think Keir Starmer deserves enormous credit for waking Peter Mandelson at 5am up to sack him.

    Just a bizarre line of defence.

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/2019316881442927037
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,422
    Cookie said:

    Seen in Sainsbury's - a brief vignette of 2020s Britain:


    Something to get your teeth into?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,887

    I'm getting bored now. Is Sir Keir resigning in disgrace or not?

    Have patience. Since he doesn't seem to be the resigning type, it is likely to be very bloody when he goes, anything but boring.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,815
    isam said:
    It so good to have the grown ups back in charge....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,786

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,303
    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Quite possibly because he feared the man in question. Had you considered that?

    Politics is a tough game.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,815
    edited 10:00AM
    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Loads of the press thought it was a tactically genius move at the time and laughed along when Starmer was joking about he is just Peter to us. Now they seem to be well of course it was a terrible decision only an idiot would do that.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 69
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    I had a feeling the upshot of all this might be McSweeney being served up in a plater,
    Which means SKS has no one
    to pin the blame on for the
    disaster that will be the May
    local elections...
    The key will be the NEV after the May local elections, if Labour beat the Tories for second behind Reform it will likely be Kemi going not Starmer
    If Labour part lance the boil and remove McSweeney before locals I see them beating Tories and Kemi gone.

    If Kemi replaced by right winger elongates Starmer.

    If Kemi replaced by centrist it speeds up Starmer removal

    Tory right leader boosts Streeting and Cooper
    Tory Centrist boosts Rayner or Burnham

    Labour would ease left v centrist would remain centrist v right wing tory options

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,764
    Just for the lolz, I watched Scandal (1989) last night, just as a reminder of what Profumo was about.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098260/?ref_=fn_t_4

    As a film it suffers a little from continuity - there are quite a few gaps in the story and the narrative is a little broken. It does, however, get the vibes. It would actually benefit from being a bit longer but perhaps that would have made rather tedious for the general audience. The atmosphere and the music are both good.

    It is probably a little sympathetic to Stephen Ward - the Epstein like character of the story - played perfectly by John Hirt - but clearly he wasn't _quite_ as depraved as Epstein and was the scapegoat in the fallout despite having been engaged by the security services to some degree.

    Joanne Whalley as Christine Keeler was good and Bridget Fonda as Mandy Rice-Davies was excellent despite the slightly iffy accent.

    I couldn't quite see Ian McKellen as Profumo, though...

    As you'd expect there is a lot of flesh, particularly in the first half. It meanders slowly from glamour to sleaze.


    Worth a watch, probably. There are plenty of parallels.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,481
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Excellent article, @Garethofthevale, thank you. Seems to me the most important bit is at the end - politicians and parties must start addressing people's concerns. Who could possibly have guessed that? Very, very few of the 'elite' or whatever one likes to call them.

    I've just come across Amelia, a figment of someone's imagination.

    “Amelia” started life in a government-funded public information film, as the bad character trying to entice people into right-wing extremism.

    Except that they made her cute and fun, so the online right adopted her and made their own videos.
    Every guy needs an Amelia.

    It's quite funny that the government's own pro immigration propaganda had to be taken down because the only likeable character from it was the one they wanted everyone to hate.
    Sounds like Gene Hunt and the Milibands portraying David Cameron as him.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,895
    stodge said:

    I have been following politics for over 60 years. I have lost count of the times I've been told that Labour/the Conservatives (delete to taste) will never be in power again, or that the Conservative/Labour duopoly is over, that some other party will win the next election or that we will see permanent coalitions with no party able to win a majority. Somehow it has never happened. It may be that this time is different, but I wouldn't bet on it. Reform are going down in the polls. Labour and the Conservatives are on an upward trend, although recent events may push Labour back down again. And, unlike Gareth, I think the defections have been a net positive for the Conservatives. And, of course, the experience of Reform actually running things has not been good in many areas.

    As things stand, we are probably at least 2 years away from a general election. A lot can change in that time. It may be that Reform will turn round its current decline and hold on to the lead in the polls. But, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.

    Fair comments but 2024 was a change - Con/Lab won 59% of the vote and 532 seats which is still very high but a long way off the 90% they were getting in the 1960s.

    There's a tipping point (and we weren't far from it last time) where the dominance ends - probably around 50% and with current polling putting Con/Lab at 40% there's a reasonable argument more seats will be won by other parties.

    Yet we are two or perhaps three years off an election and we've seen this kind of thing before - UKIP polled strongly in the 2010s and the Alliance in the 1980s but even then Con/Lab still had at least 60%.

    There's also a volatility in the electorate we've not seen for a while.
    Also need to consider the points at which vote efficiency starts to outweigh insurgent surge (for want of a better way of putting it) a 'national 26%' for the Tories or Labour starts to see them hold swathes of seats in the 'South, East etc' or 'Lab heartlands' respectively versus a national 30 to 31% Reform (who have not had time to develop more specific areas of strength)

    Campaign will also be crucial - 37% will win most English seats, 30% will be enough in a fair few so there are likely to be hundreds of very tight marginals
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,969
    edited 10:02AM
    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Dopermean said:

    Is Reform an outsider party?
    It and it's predecessors have been used to shift the overtime window right. It's policies are promoted by most of the mainstream media. while the Greens are portrayed as loonies.
    On mainland UK the lurch to the right and insular nationalism seems to be an English problem, Scottish and Welsh nationalism being for devolution within the EU.

    Reform wants the electorate to THINK they are an outsider party.

    What does the line up of MPs look like?

    Perhaps Lee Anderson is an outsider.

    The rest are last year's committee of the Tunbridge Wells Conservative Party Branch.
    Left-wing revolutionaries have got away for centuries with being themselves often well-off, middle class intellectuals and self-appointed champions of the proletariat, whose views and lifestyle they neither shared. Now it's the turn of the 'hedge fund board members' of Reform to try the same trick....
    Left wing revolutionaries have never had a serious chance at power in modern times in this country.

    And most of them become more sensible as they grow older.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,431
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    I had a feeling the upshot of all this might be McSweeney being served up in a plater,
    Which means SKS has no one
    to pin the blame on for the
    disaster that will be the May
    local elections...
    The key will be the NEV after the May local elections, if Labour beat the Tories for second behind Reform it will likely be Kemi going not Starmer
    If Labour part lance the boil and remove McSweeney before locals I see them beating Tories and Kemi gone.

    If Kemi replaced by right winger elongates Starmer.

    If Kemi replaced by centrist it speeds up Starmer removal

    Tory right leader boosts Streeting and Cooper
    Tory Centrist boosts Rayner or Burnham

    Labour would ease left v centrist would remain centrist v right wing tory options

    I guess you can only suggest part-lancing yourself

    A lance is a tricky weapon with which to commit suicide
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,306
    On the Greens and the markets I listened to the podcast recommended on here with Polanski talking to a left-wing economist. It was interesting that they both recognised the mistake Truss has made - of failing to retain the confidence of the markets - and accepted the necessity of retaining that confidence, rather than seeing the market as something that could be faced down or bypassed.

    I think perceptions of the Greens are out of kilter with reality to an extent.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,895

    stodge said:

    I have been following politics for over 60 years. I have lost count of the times I've been told that Labour/the Conservatives (delete to taste) will never be in power again, or that the Conservative/Labour duopoly is over, that some other party will win the next election or that we will see permanent coalitions with no party able to win a majority. Somehow it has never happened. It may be that this time is different, but I wouldn't bet on it. Reform are going down in the polls. Labour and the Conservatives are on an upward trend, although recent events may push Labour back down again. And, unlike Gareth, I think the defections have been a net positive for the Conservatives. And, of course, the experience of Reform actually running things has not been good in many areas.

    As things stand, we are probably at least 2 years away from a general election. A lot can change in that time. It may be that Reform will turn round its current decline and hold on to the lead in the polls. But, as I say, I wouldn't bet on it.

    Fair comments but 2024 was a change - Con/Lab won 59% of the vote and 532 seats which is still very high but a long way off the 90% they were getting in the 1960s.

    There's a tipping point (and we weren't far from it last time) where the dominance ends - probably around 50% and with current polling putting Con/Lab at 40% there's a reasonable argument more seats will be won by other parties.

    Yet we are two or perhaps three years off an election and we've seen this kind of thing before - UKIP polled strongly in the 2010s and the Alliance in the 1980s but even then Con/Lab still had at least 60%.

    There's also a volatility in the electorate we've not seen for a while.
    Also need to consider the points at which vote efficiency starts to outweigh insurgent surge (for want of a better way of putting it) a 'national 26%' for the Tories or Labour starts to see them hold swathes of seats in the 'South, East etc' or 'Lab heartlands' respectively versus a national 30 to 31% Reform (who have not had time to develop more specific areas of strength)

    Campaign will also be crucial - 37% will win most English seats, 30% will be enough in a fair few so there are likely to be hundreds of very tight marginals
    Otoh a Reform win nationally by 7% plus sees them romp home imo
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,224
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
    Tell that to Agrippa Postumus. And his mother, Julia.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,261
    @pbump.com‬

    Jeff Bezos’s wealth has increased an average of $70 million every day of 2026, meaning that he could have offset The Post’s losses with what he’s made since Monday.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,481

    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    I had a feeling the upshot of all this might be McSweeney being served up in a plater,
    Which means SKS has no one
    to pin the blame on for the
    disaster that will be the May
    local elections...
    The key will be the NEV after the May local elections, if Labour beat the Tories for second behind Reform it will likely be Kemi going not Starmer
    If Labour part lance the boil and remove McSweeney before locals I see them beating Tories and Kemi gone.

    If Kemi replaced by right winger elongates Starmer.

    If Kemi replaced by centrist it speeds up Starmer removal

    Tory right leader boosts Streeting and Cooper
    Tory Centrist boosts Rayner or Burnham

    Labour would ease left v centrist would remain centrist v right wing tory options

    I guess you can only suggest part-lancing yourself

    A lance is a tricky weapon with which to commit suicide
    Theoderic Strabo accidentally killed himself by falling off his horse and spearing himself to death. This allowed Theoderic (the Great) to unite the Goths and invade and conquer the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,895
    Tory presser at 11.30, going in for a second round of booting
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,489
    Scott_xP said:

    @pbump.com‬

    Jeff Bezos’s wealth has increased an average of $70 million every day of 2026, meaning that he could have offset The Post’s losses with what he’s made since Monday.

    Dread thought, he could pretty much make a Melania movie every day of the year.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,969
    edited 10:10AM
    Councillors' Car Parks are going to become a meme.

    We have a mini-scandal in Notts now, to follow up on Kent.

    First class' pothole repairs in car park of Reform's Nottinghamshire HQ
    A Reform councillor has questioned whether there are repairs of a similar 'quality' elsewhere in Nottinghamshire

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/first-class-pothole-repairs-car-10791032
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,151
    Brixian59 said:


    Mordaunt can win


    Spes quae numquam moritur
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,571

    stodge said:

    In the 2000s, there were few votes for outsider parties. The LDs took an outsider position on Iraq, but it would be hard to call them an outsider party.

    I disagree, in the 2000s the LDs were the outsider party. They were the pox on both your houses, none of the above, party.

    Yes their leadership were not that, but a very large chunk of their voters were.

    The Coalition fractured that. More than tuition fees, it was the very act of going into Government that destroyed what for many LD voters were the LDs very nature of being outsiders and making them just another establishment party.

    I remain firmly of the belief (both anecdotally and from data) that a large chunk of the 2015 UKIP vote were ex-LD voters.

    You can argue the same will be true for both Reform and the Greens IF either finds themselves in such a position after the next election.

    That's the thing about "outsider" parties - as long as they are on the outside, they can play that game but as soon as confronted with the consequences of their own electoral success (or the failings of others) they are forced to come "inside" and that, so to speak, taints them for all time (it would seem).

    The other side of it is to ask why a party is in business - I've never heard of a party whose sole raison d'etre was to shout in futile anger from the sidelines. No, people form and join parties to achieve policy goals whether social, economic or both. The only way to achieve those goals (currently) is through the electoral system in our democracy but once you have achieved that you then have to do some (not all) of what you promise and on that you are then judged at the next election.

    The Conservatives don't want to spend the next 10-15 years shouting at Labour and Reform Governments from the sidelines - they want to be there, in Government, enacting policies, enjoying "power" but as they know full well, the price of that power can be very high but do they want another go at Government? You better believe they do.
    We've seen across Europe how outsider potatoes get elected and then sink at the next election.
    Potatoes should be parties, obv.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,505

    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Loads of the press thought it was a tactically genius move at the time and laughed along when Starmer was joking about he is just Peter to us. Now they seem to be well of course it was a terrible decision only an idiot would do that.
    That was probably Sir Keir’s best ever joke but, in retrospect, it damns him more than anything else

  • eekeek Posts: 32,465
    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Why did SKS appoint a slimeball known and liked by President Slimeball to be the liaison between us and them.

    Hmm
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,887

    A very interesting article indeed - thanks, @GarethoftheVale2 Two points, if I may.......

    1. Don't be too quick to write off the Lib Dems as an "outsider" party. Yes, their MPs may all be as sleek and smooth as all other manifestations of "the blob", but out in the wild they have capitalised on the "plague on both your houses" idea long before it became a meme. Perhaps that might explain why their poll ratings are still so abnormally high - they are still taped in to the "sod the lot of them" vibe.

    2. I am about as bourgeois as it's possible to be on my income, mainly because I have strived to become as middle class as possible. However, I have a number of working class friends, of all ages and races, because I am a regular church-goer. From an anthropological point of view they are still very interesting places where "all sorts and conditions of men" (and women) get together and socialise. I can't think of any other forums in my town where that happens.

    I would not describe the LDs' poll ratings as "abnormally high". In a context where Labour have lost about 15% of their GE vote share and the Conservatives about 5% of theirs, in the context of a general mood that the country has gone to the dogs under government by both main parties in succession and the Conservatives under Badenoch have abandoned any pretext of appealing to the moderate centre, it is an extraordinarily bad performance for them just to be treading water, averaging no more than 1% up on 2024 currently. Davey should be doing far better.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,505
    Foss said:

    isam said:
    At least she had the guts to acknowledge it rather than just black-holing the original tweet.
    Yes, fair play to her
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,232
    MattW said:

    Councillors' Car Parks are going to become a meme.

    We have a scandal in Notts now, to follow up on Kent.

    First class' pothole repairs in car park of Reform's Nottinghamshire HQ
    A Reform councillor has questioned whether there are repairs of a similar 'quality' elsewhere in Nottinghamshire

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/first-class-pothole-repairs-car-10791032

    Oops..

    :)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,969
    edited 10:10AM
    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,652

    Just for the lolz, I watched Scandal (1989) last night, just as a reminder of what Profumo was about.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098260/?ref_=fn_t_4

    As a film it suffers a little from continuity - there are quite a few gaps in the story and the narrative is a little broken. It does, however, get the vibes. It would actually benefit from being a bit longer but perhaps that would have made rather tedious for the general audience. The atmosphere and the music are both good.

    It is probably a little sympathetic to Stephen Ward - the Epstein like character of the story - played perfectly by John Hirt - but clearly he wasn't _quite_ as depraved as Epstein and was the scapegoat in the fallout despite having been engaged by the security services to some degree.

    Joanne Whalley as Christine Keeler was good and Bridget Fonda as Mandy Rice-Davies was excellent despite the slightly iffy accent.

    I couldn't quite see Ian McKellen as Profumo, though...

    As you'd expect there is a lot of flesh, particularly in the first half. It meanders slowly from glamour to sleaze.


    Worth a watch, probably. There are plenty of parallels.


    According to this book, Stephen Ward was the out-and-out victim of the story, stitched up by the establishment, desperate to cover their own backsides, and various bent coppers.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stephen-Ward-Was-Innocent-OK/dp/1849546908
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,249

    On the Greens and the markets I listened to the podcast recommended on here with Polanski talking to a left-wing economist. It was interesting that they both recognised the mistake Truss has made - of failing to retain the confidence of the markets - and accepted the necessity of retaining that confidence, rather than seeing the market as something that could be faced down or bypassed.

    I think perceptions of the Greens are out of kilter with reality to an extent.

    Then what differentiates them from Labour? If they really believe in retaining the confidence of the markets then they'll be exactly the same, an economically orthodox party with slightly leftist rhetoric. What choices could they have made differently over the past year and still retained the confidence of the markets? Apologies for the somewhat rhetorical question.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,452

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,969
    edited 10:16AM
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
    TBF (slightly) to Andrew, it was hardly "free" as he spent umpteen million up front.

    Since it is Norfolk, surely it should be a static caravan next to the beach?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,261
    @alastairmeeks.bsky.social‬

    For those considering Sir Keir Starmer's potential replacement, NB since 1902 every Prime Minister who has ascended to that position, as opposed to being elected, has in the past been Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary or Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    If that rule were followed here, that means we consider Reeves, Lammy, Cooper and Mahmood. That's a short list.

    I'd also consider Miliband, as a former leader, and Rayner and Powell by virtue of their party role.

    You'll note even Streeting is lightweight on this test.

    In the new world of directly elected mayors I suppose you might add Khan and Burnham as major figures in devolved govt.

    But if it's happening in the next few weeks, you can pretty much ignore anyone else.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,815
    edited 10:13AM
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
    Bit unfair on the homeless, haven't they suffered enough already?
  • isamisam Posts: 43,505
    eek said:

    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Why did SKS appoint a slimeball known and liked by President Slimeball to be the liaison between us and them.

    Hmm
    Chris Pincher knew his way round the whips office, but I didn’t hear many saying that made him an inspired appointment
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
    Tell that to Agrippa Postumus. And his mother, Julia.
    https://youtu.be/_yFJNaR7Yjw?si=GpyfDmJA0TQgCTHH
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 580

    A very interesting article indeed - thanks, @GarethoftheVale2 Two points, if I may.......

    1. Don't be too quick to write off the Lib Dems as an "outsider" party. Yes, their MPs may all be as sleek and smooth as all other manifestations of "the blob", but out in the wild they have capitalised on the "plague on both your houses" idea long before it became a meme. Perhaps that might explain why their poll ratings are still so abnormally high - they are still taped in to the "sod the lot of them" vibe.

    2. I am about as bourgeois as it's possible to be on my income, mainly because I have strived to become as middle class as possible. However, I have a number of working class friends, of all ages and races, because I am a regular church-goer. From an anthropological point of view they are still very interesting places where "all sorts and conditions of men" (and women) get together and socialise. I can't think of any other forums in my town where that happens.

    I would not describe the LDs' poll ratings as "abnormally high". In a context where Labour have lost about 15% of their GE vote share and the Conservatives about 5% of theirs, in the context of a general mood that the country has gone to the dogs under government by both main parties in succession and the Conservatives under Badenoch have abandoned any pretext of appealing to the moderate centre, it is an extraordinarily bad performance for them just to be treading water, averaging no more than 1% up on 2024 currently. Davey should be doing far better.
    Indeed, perhaps he should, but ever since the 1970s the general rule of thumb seems to be that, about six months after a General Election, the Lib/LibDem share of the opinion polls would be about half of the percentage they polled at the ballot box. The collapse in their opinion poll ratings hasn't happened. But yes, in view of the abject competition they are facing, peraps they should be doing better. Still on for 100 seats at the next election, though....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,151
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
    Remote? He's in fucking Norfolk not Magadan.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,431

    stodge said:

    In the 2000s, there were few votes for outsider parties. The LDs took an outsider position on Iraq, but it would be hard to call them an outsider party.

    I disagree, in the 2000s the LDs were the outsider party. They were the pox on both your houses, none of the above, party.

    Yes their leadership were not that, but a very large chunk of their voters were.

    The Coalition fractured that. More than tuition fees, it was the very act of going into Government that destroyed what for many LD voters were the LDs very nature of being outsiders and making them just another establishment party.

    I remain firmly of the belief (both anecdotally and from data) that a large chunk of the 2015 UKIP vote were ex-LD voters.

    You can argue the same will be true for both Reform and the Greens IF either finds themselves in such a position after the next election.

    That's the thing about "outsider" parties - as long as they are on the outside, they can play that game but as soon as confronted with the consequences of their own electoral success (or the failings of others) they are forced to come "inside" and that, so to speak, taints them for all time (it would seem).

    The other side of it is to ask why a party is in business - I've never heard of a party whose sole raison d'etre was to shout in futile anger from the sidelines. No, people form and join parties to achieve policy goals whether social, economic or both. The only way to achieve those goals (currently) is through the electoral system in our democracy but once you have achieved that you then have to do some (not all) of what you promise and on that you are then judged at the next election.

    The Conservatives don't want to spend the next 10-15 years shouting at Labour and Reform Governments from the sidelines - they want to be there, in Government, enacting policies, enjoying "power" but as they know full well, the price of that power can be very high but do they want another go at Government? You better believe they do.
    We've seen across Europe how outsider potatoes get elected and then sink at the next election.
    Potatoes should be parties, obv.
    Potato, potatoes. Bonkers, bonkers Na, na, nah. Funny things happen to friendly potatoes.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06rvgtg
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,969
    edited 10:17AM

    MattW said:

    Councillors' Car Parks are going to become a meme.

    We have a scandal in Notts now, to follow up on Kent.

    First class' pothole repairs in car park of Reform's Nottinghamshire HQ
    A Reform councillor has questioned whether there are repairs of a similar 'quality' elsewhere in Nottinghamshire

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/first-class-pothole-repairs-car-10791032

    Oops..

    :)
    It's like a Trollopian novel - the Barchester Chronicles?

    (Not my speciality, so I may have the wrong one.)

    There *must* be versions of all those MPs in Trollope.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,571
    edited 10:15AM

    Excellent header, Gareth.
    I hope that Reform/Green are able to radically transform the country and make the elites bend to the Government’s will, but I don’t expect it to happen.
    In my opinion, a major issue has been the ever increasing centralisation that has taken place over the past few decades. This has concentrated power In Westminster, and therefore in the Civil Service, which, at senior levels, is the epitome of the elite. Decision making needs to be devolved to local authorities and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments. Within Scotland, there has also been far too much centralisation in Edinburgh, with the same corrosive effects as the centralisation In Westminster. This also needs to be remedied.
    Someone asked whether the SNP are now an insider party. I think they have been since 2014. The question in Scotland is whether the Scottish Greens are also now an insider party? I would argue that they are.

    Reform won't make the elites bend to the government's will. Reform are the elites. They're just the big money/tech bros/fossil fuel elites rather than the public sector elites. Farage wants lower taxes and less regulation.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,306

    Great thread header - thanks Gareth.

    Of interest to me is the wider reason for the general sense of ennui that pervades not just the UK but the whole West (and, as a far as I know the world).

    I would contend that on most measures the population of the UK is on average better off than it was 20 years ago. But no one 'feels' that way for some reason.

    I think social media is in part to blame for this, as Edmund mentions above.

    I also think it depends on which economic metrics you are looking at. I think the economy has become better at extracting money from ordinary people - things like broadband contracts with an automatic price ratchet every year. Or having people treat cars like phones - something they buy on a contract (on finance) that they replace every few years.

    So, sure, if you look at average real earnings the figures don't look so bad, but when people look at how much money they have left on the 25th of the month it doesn't look too pretty.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,895
    James Evans AM joins Reform
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,489
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
    Remote? He's in fucking Norfolk not Magadan.
    Andrew on being told that there are young women with 6 fingers on each hand in the vicinity..


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,985
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,815

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    I'm not generally someone who does protests or boycotts, but I am so revolted by Bezos' recent antics that I have actually resolved to stop using Amazon. I have been spending £3k-6k a year with them for at least 20 years. No more. No Prime, no Audible, no physical goods through the post. It's going to cost me maybe 5% extra on that spend, plus some extra time finding new sources for some stuff, but I'm so p****d off at this new kakistocracy.
    Amazon are often not the cheapest places to buy things these days. The plague of dodgy Chinese sellers (both brands you never heard of playing the algorithm to get listed high up and as FBA sellers) is also a big negative.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,618
    isam said:

    eek said:

    isam said:

    🔥 Amol Rajan nails it: "The Prime Minister's a former prosecutor, he's talked a lot throughout his career about victims being first and foremost. If that were really the case, why would he appoint a man who he knew had an ongoing relationship with a convicted paedophile."

    https://x.com/kevinaschofield/status/2019326222891954667?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Why did SKS appoint a slimeball known and liked by President Slimeball to be the liaison between us and them.

    Hmm
    Chris Pincher knew his way round the whips office, but I didn’t hear many saying that made him an inspired appointment
    I doubt 5% of pb-ers or 2% of the general public had heard of Chris Pincher at the time of his appointment, let alone knew enough about him to have any opinion at all on his appointment.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,221
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    To get back to insiders, apols if I missed it but has there been anny comment on Bezos laying off a huge chunk of the Washington Post's journalists? That cnut arsing about with penis shaped rockets and multi $m weddings in Venice while turning a serious newspaper into Völkischer Beobachter epitomises the state we're in.

    https://x.com/lizziejohnsonnn/status/2019083204133609846?s=20

    WashPo lost $100m last year, that’s why the redundancies.
    Bezos can afford to lose that much for hundreds of years
    But why would he want to sell Amazon shares, to throw good money after bad at a failing business?
    For influence? Same reason they all burn money on news companies.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,379
    A fine header, thanks. My only slight disagreement is on Corbyn. Yes, he was an outsider leading an insider party. But I don't think him getting 40% at the 2017 GE provides much evidence of an attempt to overturn the status quo. He certainly had his followers, but I'd guess that over half of that 40% voted Labour despite, not because of, Corbyn being leader. He just hoovered up most of the loyal Labour vote, and added that section of the electorate who have now drifted off to Polanski. Without the 'insider' Labour Party label, I doubt Corbyn would have reached 20%.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,815
    edited 10:20AM

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

    Its a good job his bt interenet email can't be recovered....
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,303
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
    TBF (slightly) to Andrew, it was hardly "free" as he spent umpteen million up front.

    Since it is Norfolk, surely it should be a static caravan next to the beach?
    Well, there's always Cromer, but maybe that's being a bit too harsh.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,618

    James Evans AM joins Reform

    Did they need another attacker? Thought the transfer window closed on Monday anyway.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

    Hold on, I thought the Russian stuff was just a stick to beat Reform with before the locals.

    😂😂😂😂
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,221
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Yes, for all the guff in the press and on the TV/radio etc, he is still living a pretty good life.
    Every royal family has the odd black sheep, who steps out of line and ends up exiled to somewhere remote - but they still look after them.
    Remote? He's in fucking Norfolk not Magadan.
    He's very popular in Kazakhstan, they could buy him a place out there
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,618
    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
    If he has committed crimes they should be investigated and prosecuted. He shouldn't receive money from the tax payer. Where he lives should be no concern to the rest of us.
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 470

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

    What feels to be missing in this narrative is an Israeli connection.

    Surely Maxwell is an obvious contender.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,473

    A very interesting article indeed - thanks, @GarethoftheVale2 Two points, if I may.......

    1. Don't be too quick to write off the Lib Dems as an "outsider" party. Yes, their MPs may all be as sleek and smooth as all other manifestations of "the blob", but out in the wild they have capitalised on the "plague on both your houses" idea long before it became a meme. Perhaps that might explain why their poll ratings are still so abnormally high - they are still taped in to the "sod the lot of them" vibe.

    2. I am about as bourgeois as it's possible to be on my income, mainly because I have strived to become as middle class as possible. However, I have a number of working class friends, of all ages and races, because I am a regular church-goer. From an anthropological point of view they are still very interesting places where "all sorts and conditions of men" (and women) get together and socialise. I can't think of any other forums in my town where that happens.

    Our village has one pub. All classes meet there, from the retired Army Major to the road sweeper. That’s an advantage of living in a village.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,562

    Sean_F said:

    Taz said:

    Excellent and thought provoking article

    The comment about working class friends is interesting. I had, when younger, many working class friends. Nowadays those I am still friends with would not be deemed working class. White colllar jobs, nice homes, comfortably off.

    The working class has always had people who wallow in it and people who aspire to do better. That’s where most of my friendship group from my younger years ended up. I do also have posh friends who were privately educated.

    This thread is key to me. There is little substantive consequence for misdeeds.

    ‘ We see scandal after scandal, and the politicians keep uttering the same trite phrase, “lessons will be learned”. The public want to see people being actually held to account.

    After the collapse of RBS, Fred Goodwin lost part of his pension, but I doubt he is living in a council house. Paula Vennells of the Post Office handed back her CBE in 2024, but she was only awarded it in 2019, well after the scandal was known about.’

    Well, Prince Andrew was evicted from his free house on a royal estate, so now he is forced to live in *checks notes* a free house on a different royal estate.
    Andrew should be sent to live in a homeless shelter.
    If he has committed crimes they should be investigated and prosecuted. He shouldn't receive money from the tax payer. Where he lives should be no concern to the rest of us.
    As long as he’s not poncing off us, of course it shouldn’t.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,510

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

    What feels to be missing in this narrative is an Israeli connection.

    Surely Maxwell is an obvious contender.
    I’m quite sure that if Epstein was trading information to Russia, he was doing so to China as well.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,618

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    BREAKING:

    Labour backbenchers are now publicly warning Sir Keir Starmer that his own future will be in doubt unless he sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney

    It's effectively an ultimatum that's being echoed across the backbenches

    Karl Turner, a Labour MP, says the mood on the backbenches is 'dire'. He says that unless Starmer sacks his chief of staff Morgan McSweeney he will be 'up against it' and have to make a decision about his own future

    He tells
    @TimesRadio
    the atmosphere in the Commons was the 'angriest' he has ever seen it, but that the anger was directed at his advisers

    He says he forwarded messages from people expressing their anger directly to the prime minister last night. 'He thanked me, and I suspect he thanked those who were then messaging him'

    'My advice to the prime minister is get rid of those advisers who have frankly given terrible advice to him over weeks and months. The PM needs to deal with that and make a decision. If the PM decides he has to be surrounded by advisers who give him shoddy advice the reality of that is the prime minister is going to have to make a decision about his future some point soon

    'If McSweeney is still in 10 Downing Street the PM is up against it'

    That's a tricky one, because aiui the top team are essentially McSweeney Todd appointees.

    So SKS is in no position to remove one without potentially losing a lot more.

    Reportedly it is about an expectation that MPs be rubber stamps, and that No 10 is a bit of an ivory tower at present with little engagement.


    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    Just one other thing. If anybody seriously thinks we have reached the bottom of the allegations about Mandelson, Epstein, Russia, and what Starmer knew (or should have known) they're living in cloud-cuckoo land.


    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2019342101981589561


    ===

    If it turns out that Mandelson was feeding national security and finance stuff to the Russians via his bestie then the entire government could be brought down never mind changing PMs.

    Reminder that no-one cared when Boris left his security detail to meet privately with a KGB agent and then made the dad of the KGB agent a peer.

    The global elite deal with the global elite at a level above mere national politics, make their own rules and distract us with trivia to avoid accountability.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,261
    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Labour MP Brian Leishman joins the calls for Morgan McSweeney to go.

    "You can't just look at this in isolation. When we look at the historic missteps and misjudgments we've made, Morgan McSweeney is at the heart of that and it's time he was removed from power."
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,043

    Tory presser at 11.30, going in for a second round of booting

    Perhaps a couple of Reform MPs defecting to the Tories?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,764

    Just for the lolz, I watched Scandal (1989) last night, just as a reminder of what Profumo was about.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098260/?ref_=fn_t_4

    As a film it suffers a little from continuity - there are quite a few gaps in the story and the narrative is a little broken. It does, however, get the vibes. It would actually benefit from being a bit longer but perhaps that would have made rather tedious for the general audience. The atmosphere and the music are both good.

    It is probably a little sympathetic to Stephen Ward - the Epstein like character of the story - played perfectly by John Hirt - but clearly he wasn't _quite_ as depraved as Epstein and was the scapegoat in the fallout despite having been engaged by the security services to some degree.

    Joanne Whalley as Christine Keeler was good and Bridget Fonda as Mandy Rice-Davies was excellent despite the slightly iffy accent.

    I couldn't quite see Ian McKellen as Profumo, though...

    As you'd expect there is a lot of flesh, particularly in the first half. It meanders slowly from glamour to sleaze.


    Worth a watch, probably. There are plenty of parallels.


    According to this book, Stephen Ward was the out-and-out victim of the story, stitched up by the establishment, desperate to cover their own backsides, and various bent coppers.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stephen-Ward-Was-Innocent-OK/dp/1849546908
    In so far as someone procuring girls can be innocent, that seems fair.
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