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Farage, not Starmer, is the anti-Midas – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,915
edited 7:53AM in General
Farage, not Starmer, is the anti-Midas – politicalbetting.com

Does Keir Starmer really have a "reverse Midas touch"? A YouGov experiment does not find such an effect on two policies tested – associating Keir Starmer's name with spending more on veterans and spending more on animal welfare made no difference to resultsyougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,388
    First?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    Morning.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,254
    Third like Labour in Gorton.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,945

    Third like Labour in Gorton.

    Optimist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152
    Fifth! Like…who knows? Labour, probably
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,945
    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,859
    JRM is a moron .

    The last thing the Tories want is for Reform to win the by-election so standing aside would be utterly stupid.

    Why doesn’t he go and join Reform and continue his daily fellation of Farage !
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152
    Mention treating animals better, and voters don’t really care whose idea it was
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,945
    nico67 said:

    JRM is a moron .

    The last thing the Tories want is for Reform to win the by-election so standing aside would be utterly stupid.

    Why doesn’t he go and join Reform and continue his daily fellation of Farage !

    Do you mind!

    I'm trying to eat my breakfast.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    IanB2 said:

    Mention treating animals better, and voters don’t really care whose idea it was

    According to the poll, they do.

    Left of centre voters in particular seem to have a strong aversion to anything that's associated with Farage. It's not a small effect.

    My question above, which TSE replied to, was slightly tongue in cheek, but it is an interesting question exactly why this should be.
    Is there's a rational component to it, or is it essentially extra-rational transference of the understandably negative emotions he invokes ?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,670
    This is illuminating polling, thanks for sharing. For every Farage disciple there are at least two or three who look at his history of racism, his support for Trump, his party's closeness to Putin, his reckless fiscal position and his plans to sell off the NHS and say over my dead body. Farage will face a tactical voting onslaught the likes of which we have never seen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    theProle said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Criticising Zionism would have got me fifty likes

    Criticising Islamism gets next to none

    I understand that Islamism is much scarier to oppose

    Perhaps the site statisticians can confirm, but I’d be AMAZED if any post has received 50 likes.

    Have you got your hyperbolic beer googles on?
    The most liked post in PB history received 61 likes.

    It was by JohnO telling he was okay after his cardiac arrest.

    I think that’s the only post to go past 40 likes.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3404262/#Comment_3404262
    I think birth announcements have come close too.
    That thread - while, er, heartening for @JohnO - is depressing in several ways. First it’s still during Covid - the tail-end, mid 2021, but still in the storm even as it dies. Ugh

    Secondly it shows how the PB rightwingers have been slowly eliminated. @felix - banned. @MrEd - banned. Etc

    Which is why we are left with the bowl of thin gruel that is Modern PB. Weak sauce centrism. The Endless Dads. Heat pumps and roundabouts

    How many regular commenters are clear Reform supporters? I think it’s me and @Luckyguy1983 - @isam has returned to the Tories (as is his right, of course)

    We probably have ~100 regular commenters. So we have 2% Reform on PB. Yet out there in the UK Reform are the most popular party on 25-34%, depending on your flavour of pollster

    We used to congratulate ourselves that PB was a civilised if rowdy venue that represented Britain, politically. That was never entirely true but it was true enough to be encouraging

    The idea is now laughable
    Felix is actively posting and liking.
    And @MrEd has had several nom de plumes over the years. And I'm fairly sure @Sandpit counts as a Reform supporter.

    For what it's worth, we also have barely any Green supporters either.

    We are definitely overrepresented as far as "soft left, not sure exactly where", and conservatives.
    FWIW, I'm currently a Ref voter, although I might vote tactically for the right sort of Tory if I was in a seat where Ref has no chance. I'm currently in High Peak, which was a Tory-Lab marginal - goodness only knows who'd win it at the moment, but I'm fairly likely to move before the next GE (unless Starmer government implodes very spectacularly in the next year or so) .

    Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything everyone Ref adjacent says or does mind you - I just think they just seem more likely to fix at least some of the country's problems than all the alternatives (most of whom appear actively keen to make the country's problems worse).
    I am not a Reform voter yet. I could consider it. Next election my seat is probably labour v Reform and a Reform target. I’m currently not planning to vote. I’ve not yet seen anything from Reform, or Labour for that matter, to convince me to vote for them. But I am not ruling either out.

    Reform are running Durham and don’t seem to be doing too bad a job so far. Certainly no worse than the collation or Labour administrations that preceded them.

    Reform needs to show some fiscal discipline. I’m not convinced they’re there yet. The Greens aren’t. They are a left wing Reform, IE none of the above. The greens are more dangerous than Reform with their policy platform.

    Lots of people suddenly discover patriotism as a stick to beat Reform. The same people who would sell our sovereignty out in a heartbeat to the EU.

    As you’ve come out for Reform expect pile ons and bullying. It’s how PB rolls as no one will want to know why you think the
    Way you do. Just abuse for thinking it. Good luck.
    You're as happy to dish out the abuse as any other PBer, from what I can see, Taz.
    Do you have a particular reason for thinking that Reform should be exempt from the kind of stock other parties get ?
    If people are rude to me I will fight fire with fire. I won’t abuse people for their politics.

    Unless they're LibDems ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,337

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,337
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    theProle said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Criticising Zionism would have got me fifty likes

    Criticising Islamism gets next to none

    I understand that Islamism is much scarier to oppose

    Perhaps the site statisticians can confirm, but I’d be AMAZED if any post has received 50 likes.

    Have you got your hyperbolic beer googles on?
    The most liked post in PB history received 61 likes.

    It was by JohnO telling he was okay after his cardiac arrest.

    I think that’s the only post to go past 40 likes.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3404262/#Comment_3404262
    I think birth announcements have come close too.
    That thread - while, er, heartening for @JohnO - is depressing in several ways. First it’s still during Covid - the tail-end, mid 2021, but still in the storm even as it dies. Ugh

    Secondly it shows how the PB rightwingers have been slowly eliminated. @felix - banned. @MrEd - banned. Etc

    Which is why we are left with the bowl of thin gruel that is Modern PB. Weak sauce centrism. The Endless Dads. Heat pumps and roundabouts

    How many regular commenters are clear Reform supporters? I think it’s me and @Luckyguy1983 - @isam has returned to the Tories (as is his right, of course)

    We probably have ~100 regular commenters. So we have 2% Reform on PB. Yet out there in the UK Reform are the most popular party on 25-34%, depending on your flavour of pollster

    We used to congratulate ourselves that PB was a civilised if rowdy venue that represented Britain, politically. That was never entirely true but it was true enough to be encouraging

    The idea is now laughable
    Felix is actively posting and liking.
    And @MrEd has had several nom de plumes over the years. And I'm fairly sure @Sandpit counts as a Reform supporter.

    For what it's worth, we also have barely any Green supporters either.

    We are definitely overrepresented as far as "soft left, not sure exactly where", and conservatives.
    FWIW, I'm currently a Ref voter, although I might vote tactically for the right sort of Tory if I was in a seat where Ref has no chance. I'm currently in High Peak, which was a Tory-Lab marginal - goodness only knows who'd win it at the moment, but I'm fairly likely to move before the next GE (unless Starmer government implodes very spectacularly in the next year or so) .

    Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything everyone Ref adjacent says or does mind you - I just think they just seem more likely to fix at least some of the country's problems than all the alternatives (most of whom appear actively keen to make the country's problems worse).
    I am not a Reform voter yet. I could consider it. Next election my seat is probably labour v Reform and a Reform target. I’m currently not planning to vote. I’ve not yet seen anything from Reform, or Labour for that matter, to convince me to vote for them. But I am not ruling either out.

    Reform are running Durham and don’t seem to be doing too bad a job so far. Certainly no worse than the collation or Labour administrations that preceded them.

    Reform needs to show some fiscal discipline. I’m not convinced they’re there yet. The Greens aren’t. They are a left wing Reform, IE none of the above. The greens are more dangerous than Reform with their policy platform.

    Lots of people suddenly discover patriotism as a stick to beat Reform. The same people who would sell our sovereignty out in a heartbeat to the EU.

    As you’ve come out for Reform expect pile ons and bullying. It’s how PB rolls as no one will want to know why you think the
    Way you do. Just abuse for thinking it. Good luck.
    You're as happy to dish out the abuse as any other PBer, from what I can see, Taz.
    Do you have a particular reason for thinking that Reform should be exempt from the kind of stock other parties get ?
    If people are rude to me I will fight fire with fire. I won’t abuse people for their politics.

    Unless they're LibDems ?
    I will happily criticise the cynical opportunism and policies of the Lib Dem’s.

    None of which distracts from my original point.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,242
    OT

    “James Bowie: Sometimes... it's just the way you say things, Travis. That's all. I swear to God”

    The problem Starmer has is not that he’s hated (in the wider world) but that he is seen as ineffectual. People joke about a policy announcement - “how long to the u-turn?”

    He’s even said that he can’t get stuff done. Because of The Blob.

    Which, for a politician, is like complaining about bad press. The Blob & The Press are part of the terrain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    This is an interesting thread from someone with a lot of combat experience in Ukraine.
    It's a debate about strategy which would have been incomprehensible on a year or so back.

    Ukraine is not losing drone warfare tactically. Ukrainian units still kill large numbers of enemy infantry with FPVs daily.
    Ukraine is losing operationally and strategically because it never defined depth ownership as the goal.

    https://x.com/RyanO_ChosenCoy/status/2013382825475744075

    The arguments over defence procurement for the UK army are still rooted in the time before the Ukraine invasion.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,859
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    It isn't just Brexit, there are plenty of other reasons to despise Farage and his politics.

    Matt Goodwin as his preferred candidate for example.
    If you pick that sort of candidate it’s clear what your strategy is . Hoover up all the racists and hope the left vote splits favourably .
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,963
    edited 8:19AM
    An interesting test. Who is a vote anti-magnet? Yes Farage does it for me every time. The oleaginous creep's approval would turn me off just about everything. I don't think I'd even go to Wales if his lot won there
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,921
    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    It is difficult to know what Farages policies are beyond the obvious of being beastly to immigrants and their descendents.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,945
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    It isn't just Brexit, there are plenty of other reasons to despise Farage and his politics.

    Matt Goodwin as his preferred candidate for example.
    Indeed, according to the Professor I'm not British.

    If Goodwin loses I promise to never use that Farage photo again.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,443
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    It is difficult to know what Farages policies are beyond the obvious of being beastly to immigrants and their descendents.
    Putin admiration might make him ironically akin to Merkel. Maybe he'd want to hook us back up to Russian gas supplies?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Taz said:

    theProle said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Criticising Zionism would have got me fifty likes

    Criticising Islamism gets next to none

    I understand that Islamism is much scarier to oppose

    Perhaps the site statisticians can confirm, but I’d be AMAZED if any post has received 50 likes.

    Have you got your hyperbolic beer googles on?
    The most liked post in PB history received 61 likes.

    It was by JohnO telling he was okay after his cardiac arrest.

    I think that’s the only post to go past 40 likes.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/3404262/#Comment_3404262
    I think birth announcements have come close too.
    That thread - while, er, heartening for @JohnO - is depressing in several ways. First it’s still during Covid - the tail-end, mid 2021, but still in the storm even as it dies. Ugh

    Secondly it shows how the PB rightwingers have been slowly eliminated. @felix - banned. @MrEd - banned. Etc

    Which is why we are left with the bowl of thin gruel that is Modern PB. Weak sauce centrism. The Endless Dads. Heat pumps and roundabouts

    How many regular commenters are clear Reform supporters? I think it’s me and @Luckyguy1983 - @isam has returned to the Tories (as is his right, of course)

    We probably have ~100 regular commenters. So we have 2% Reform on PB. Yet out there in the UK Reform are the most popular party on 25-34%, depending on your flavour of pollster

    We used to congratulate ourselves that PB was a civilised if rowdy venue that represented Britain, politically. That was never entirely true but it was true enough to be encouraging

    The idea is now laughable
    Felix is actively posting and liking.
    And @MrEd has had several nom de plumes over the years. And I'm fairly sure @Sandpit counts as a Reform supporter.

    For what it's worth, we also have barely any Green supporters either.

    We are definitely overrepresented as far as "soft left, not sure exactly where", and conservatives.
    FWIW, I'm currently a Ref voter, although I might vote tactically for the right sort of Tory if I was in a seat where Ref has no chance. I'm currently in High Peak, which was a Tory-Lab marginal - goodness only knows who'd win it at the moment, but I'm fairly likely to move before the next GE (unless Starmer government implodes very spectacularly in the next year or so) .

    Doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything everyone Ref adjacent says or does mind you - I just think they just seem more likely to fix at least some of the country's problems than all the alternatives (most of whom appear actively keen to make the country's problems worse).
    I am not a Reform voter yet. I could consider it. Next election my seat is probably labour v Reform and a Reform target. I’m currently not planning to vote. I’ve not yet seen anything from Reform, or Labour for that matter, to convince me to vote for them. But I am not ruling either out.

    Reform are running Durham and don’t seem to be doing too bad a job so far. Certainly no worse than the collation or Labour administrations that preceded them.

    Reform needs to show some fiscal discipline. I’m not convinced they’re there yet. The Greens aren’t. They are a left wing Reform, IE none of the above. The greens are more dangerous than Reform with their policy platform.

    Lots of people suddenly discover patriotism as a stick to beat Reform. The same people who would sell our sovereignty out in a heartbeat to the EU.

    As you’ve come out for Reform expect pile ons and bullying. It’s how PB rolls as no one will want to know why you think the
    Way you do. Just abuse for thinking it. Good luck.
    You're as happy to dish out the abuse as any other PBer, from what I can see, Taz.
    Do you have a particular reason for thinking that Reform should be exempt from the kind of stock other parties get ?
    If people are rude to me I will fight fire with fire. I won’t abuse people for their politics.

    Unless they're LibDems ?
    I will happily criticise the cynical opportunism and policies of the Lib Dem’s.

    None of which distracts from my original point.
    I think it goes to your original point.

    I'm averse to "pile ons" myself, but I think you conflate both the kind of criticism of parties you indulge in yourself, and the "fighting fire with fire" with pile ons.

    There's no bright line between any those things.

    Abuse is abuse, and those of us who indulge in it ought not to be quite so convinced of our own righteousness.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,878
    Good morning.

    So Labour (about 6.5:1) are the closest thing to a value bet for the byelection ...

    (which is not very close).
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,400
    IanB2 said:

    Mention treating animals better, and voters don’t really care whose idea it was

    I guess the fact support is only 60% shows that at least some voters appreciate the economic hole we're in...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,884
    OT today is Wednesday. I noticed this some ten minutes after heading my to-do list ‘Sunday’.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,652
    I was (still am) pro-Brexit so I was glad of the efforts of Mr Farage and Mr Johnson, but that doesn't mean I think either of them is/was fit to be PM.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • Another poll shows an increase in Labour support albeit within MoE.

    The question really is are Reform at 30% or mid to high 20s. Nobody seems to agree.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,963
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    It isn't just Brexit, there are plenty of other reasons to despise Farage and his politics.

    Matt Goodwin as his preferred candidate for example.
    His ugly racism for another....and he's attracting them like flies
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,127
    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting thread from someone with a lot of combat experience in Ukraine.
    It's a debate about strategy which would have been incomprehensible on a year or so back.

    Ukraine is not losing drone warfare tactically. Ukrainian units still kill large numbers of enemy infantry with FPVs daily.
    Ukraine is losing operationally and strategically because it never defined depth ownership as the goal.

    https://x.com/RyanO_ChosenCoy/status/2013382825475744075

    The arguments over defence procurement for the UK army are still rooted in the time before the Ukraine invasion.

    What the fuck does "never defined depth ownership as the goal" mean? He sounds like a LinkedIn wanker.

    Ukraine is losing operationally and strategically because of unreliable allies and a slowly metastasising political crisis in Kiev. The corrupt, arbitrary and often violent nature of the conscription process meant Z had to yield to domestic pressure and allow young men to leave the country last year. Half a million said cheers and immediately legged it west. All of that has a lot more to do with Ukraine's problems than a failure to define "depth ownership" as a goal.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,878
    Hmm. Backing down on the army's AJAX Noise Box:

    The Ministry of Defence has formally withdrawn Initial Operating Capability for the Ajax armoured vehicle programme, an extraordinary step that underlines the scale of the crisis surrounding one of the British Army’s most troubled procurement projects.

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/army-withdraws-ajax-ioc-after-ministers-misled/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,485
    edited 8:50AM
    WRT the header it seems to me there are a couple of issues.

    Firstly, people do not listen very exactly to the question, especially if it has more than one concept in it.
    Secondly, learning this from politics, people often don't answer with precision the question asked but a significant variant of it.
    Thirdly, when a question is compound, the responder picks the bit they find simplest. (A minister has been doing this just now on R4 Today.)
    And, specifically with regard to the 'introduce Farage name' question, to answer a pollster you are not under oath. An answer, which anyway is no more than instant opinion, will sometimes want to make a display rather than seek a truth. The responder simply wants to say 'I don't like Farage'. It's a tiny exercise of a relevant power in opinion formation.

    ("Hitler believed in making the trains run on time do you agree with him on this matter?")
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,963
    edited 8:50AM
    OT. It feels like Starmer is upping his game and/or has finally taken on some better advisers. Going to China while the Tories wail and defending their new embassy seem very smart decisions politically.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,405
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    The great unknown is how much people’s hatred of Reform is due to Farage and how much is it the group as a whole.

    And we will never know until Farage walks away because I don’t think UKIP is the best example to extrapolate from
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,135
    Roger said:

    An interesting test. Who is a vote anti-magnet? Yes Farage does it for me every time. The oleaginous creep's approval would turn me off just about everything. I don't think I'd even go to Wales if his lot won there

    They won't

    Plaid are going to do very well at the expense of labour and reform
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,557

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,139
    edited 8:58AM
    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,350
    Was Goodwin chosen as he is the sort that would appeal to the people of G&D or is this simply MAGA playbook selecting 'the bloke from the TV'

    There have been a number of media types standing for parliament but how many of them have actually been successful?
  • eekeek Posts: 32,405

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    I suspect we need Reform to do well in these elections as their failure to deliver will be what costs them votes long term.

    I note that in County Durham the council is cutting back on street cleaning and verge cutting - so one of the more visible things will be getting worse (not a dig really, it’s impossible for council tax to keep up with care costs so everything else has to go - it just means Reform is going to cop the blame).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,878
    Battlebus said:

    Was Goodwin chosen as he is the sort that would appeal to the people of G&D or is this simply MAGA playbook selecting 'the bloke from the TV'

    There have been a number of media types standing for parliament but how many of them have actually been successful?

    I'd speculate that it is the pecking order inside Reform.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,135

    Another poll shows an increase in Labour support albeit within MoE.

    The question really is are Reform at 30% or mid to high 20s. Nobody seems to agree.

    Four weeks tomorrow Gorton and Denton will be very interesting and a real point of danger for Starmer

    If however labour hang on then May becomes the moment of truth for him, good or bad
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,884
    edited 9:04AM
    4½ minutes showing the rise of American populism and ICE in this Simpsons clip from 30 years ago:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v81b0XllvgI
  • Battlebus said:

    Was Goodwin chosen as he is the sort that would appeal to the people of G&D or is this simply MAGA playbook selecting 'the bloke from the TV'

    There have been a number of media types standing for parliament but how many of them have actually been successful?

    I think the importance of this by-election is overstated. It will come to mean absolutely nothing as did Hartlepool.

    The reality is that I think it unlikely Sir Keir goes this year. He will not lead Labour into the election but he’ll quit maybe next year or year after and give somebody a clear run at Reform.

    Personally I think Labour’s policies will start to bear fruit over the next 18 months or so and a new leader will have a decent inheritance. I suspect we will hear more on the small boats in the spring and that is really a test for what Labour can or can’t do.

    I think people here are far too keen to declare an election in 2029, in 2026.

    But I also think Badenoch is doing a decent job so what do I know really?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,485
    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    9 of the last 13 polls have Reform under 30.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,587
    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    How can I make sense of this without Sunil's 'dirty, sleazy' post?
  • The ground rent policy and the vet bills policy are quite smart bits of politics.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 5,000
    edited 9:09AM
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    9 of the last 13 polls have Reform under 30.

    In a world in which Labour and Reform draw level (which I can completely see in at least one poll), the danger for Sir Keir surely recedes at least temporarily.

    If Labour can get back up to 26% and squeeze the Greens, repeating 2024 (the victory, not the seats) really doesn’t sound so stupid to me.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,964

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
    We keep hearing this from the Conservative-inclined on here (though whether they are more anti-Labour and anti-Reform than pro-Conservative varies from case to case).

    What is this "more coherent brand"? I'm told there's a "gap" in the market for something which might be called Conservative but again it all seems very fuzzy and ill-defined.

    We even have some extoling "One Nation" though without a scintilla of idea as to what that means in the mid to late 2020s.

    "What do the Conservatives stand for?" used to be a question no one asked but now it's a question worth asking. If we start from the basic questions around economic growth and the competing demands of an insecure, ageing society which needs more funds on both defence and social care simultaenously, how can any of this be funded within the current socio-economic framework?

    The Revolutionary Communsts would have you believe "the billionaires" are the answer - some might call it legalised extortion and others might argue said billionaires can probably more quicker than a sclerotic Government and take their funds away.

    Yes, we can tax a little more and spend a little less and that might help - we can wait for technology to play its part to boost productivity (which is probably the core issue) - why pay a barista to get your coffee order wrong when a machine can get it wrong for you more quickly and efficiently?

    I think there's been a values change too again possibly related to the pandemic, possibly related to demographics around the kind of lives we want to live and the role of work and the importance of material acquisition within that life. That's by no means true of everyone and for many it remains a struggle from one week to the next and alleviating that struggle would be a help.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,557
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    The great unknown is how much people’s hatred of Reform is due to Farage and how much is it the group as a whole.

    And we will never know until Farage walks away because I don’t think UKIP is the best example to extrapolate from
    It seems quite unlikely there is a big group of people who dislike Farage immensely but quite keen on Jenrick, Braverman, Tice, Yusuf, Jenkyns and Anderson. Farage for all his faults is an excellent politician. The others are between shameless incompetent opportunists, mean and/or dumb.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,127
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    9 of the last 13 polls have Reform under 30.

    The teal balloon is definitely deflating (presumably leaking Zyklon-B). Probably a combination of the tory asylum seekers, the MAGA adjacency and attenuation of the novelty factor.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,552
    Good effort from Leicester Liz here:

    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/2016427386540003808

    @SophyRidgeSky
    I asked Liz Kendall about *that* video of @GoodwinMJ that Labour have put out
  • Farage’s ratings seem on a downward slope from his peak just after the local elections?

    Presumably that will jump back up again when they do well.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 852
    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,689

    OT today is Wednesday. I noticed this some ten minutes after heading my to-do list ‘Sunday’.

    You must be retired...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,168
    Penddu2 said:

    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.

    On the other hand, if these people were inevitably going to defect before the next election then it's better to get it over with sooner rather than later even if the immediate impact is negative.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,031
    Cameron's "detoxification" project was not only craven, because it involved abandoning policies that worked because focus groups and opinion pollsters told him were unpopular, but it didn't even work particularly well because he failed to get a majority against somebody as toxic and useless as Gordon Brown after a once-in-a-generation financial crisis, or to dent the large Lib Dem seat total in 2010.

    I happen to think that the electorate isn't quite as stupid as pollsters and the more cynical of the posters on here think. Enough voters will support policies regarded as "nasty" in the short term if the long term benefits are explained to them and they are convinced. Ditching policies you know are right because focus groups tell you to worked triumphantly for a once-in-a-generation political genius like Blair, who benefited hugely from the prosperity caused by those policies, but for a second-rate Blair clone like Cameron and the more cynical of his followers, it just made them look even more dishonest and phoney than Tony. It may have just about passed pre-2007, but it didn't really work in the much harsher economic climate of the 2010s.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,139
    edited 9:19AM
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    9 of the last 13 polls have Reform under 30.

    Their average rating has never been more than 30% at any time AFAIK.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,337

    The ground rent policy and the vet bills policy are quite smart bits of politics.

    Ground rent policy doesn’t come into effect until 2028 and does nothing, I can see, that tackles high service charges although it is not to say it is not a good step forward. It is.

    The vet bills policy less so. I cannot see what the gain is. If they just list prices so people can shop around. People can do that anyway.

    Btw hope you’re well. Nice to see you back
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Mention treating animals better, and voters don’t really care whose idea it was

    According to the poll, they do.

    Left of centre voters in particular seem to have a strong aversion to anything that's associated with Farage. It's not a small effect.

    My question above, which TSE replied to, was slightly tongue in cheek, but it is an interesting question exactly why this should be.
    Is there's a rational component to it, or is it essentially extra-rational transference of the understandably negative emotions he invokes ?
    A lot smaller effect than for the other question, and mostly pushing a few people from yes to don't know whether its Farage or Starmer who were mentioned.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,878
    edited 9:32AM
    Taz said:

    The ground rent policy and the vet bills policy are quite smart bits of politics.

    Ground rent policy doesn’t come into effect until 2028 and does nothing, I can see, that tackles high service charges although it is not to say it is not a good step forward. It is.

    The vet bills policy less so. I cannot see what the gain is. If they just list prices so people can shop around. People can do that anyway.

    Btw hope you’re well. Nice to see you back
    The Ground Rent policy could have some unforeseen impacts I think, because it reduces it to issues around single units rather than mixed blocks (meaning blocks ie areas rather than blocks of flats). I think it will be beneficial, but it should be imo CPI increases not a cash freeze.

    One canary in the coalmine will be local independent shops where charges are currently held artificially low.

    Time will tell.

    On a separate note, I have not seen whether it is retrospective, or applies to commercial properties.

    For vets, aiui the problem is that it is turning into an oligopolistic market. 60% of the market is owned by 6 corporate groups, with vertical integration. 15 year ago it was 10% of the market.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,337
    Penddu2 said:

    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.

    I think all of this is absolutely right. I said to my Reform supporting friends that hoovering up failed Tories was not going to help them in the red wall. I don’t think it will. They cannot see it and think it’s great the likes of Braverman are switching. But then they mostly live in the Shires in Lib Dem-Tory contests.

    I’m in a Reform-Labour seat and would consider Reform but not if it’s a failed Tory tribute act, not if it fiscally imprudent and not if Darren Grimes is the candidate.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,557
    stodge said:

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
    We keep hearing this from the Conservative-inclined on here (though whether they are more anti-Labour and anti-Reform than pro-Conservative varies from case to case).

    What is this "more coherent brand"? I'm told there's a "gap" in the market for something which might be called Conservative but again it all seems very fuzzy and ill-defined.

    We even have some extoling "One Nation" though without a scintilla of idea as to what that means in the mid to late 2020s.

    "What do the Conservatives stand for?" used to be a question no one asked but now it's a question worth asking. If we start from the basic questions around economic growth and the competing demands of an insecure, ageing society which needs more funds on both defence and social care simultaenously, how can any of this be funded within the current socio-economic framework?

    The Revolutionary Communsts would have you believe "the billionaires" are the answer - some might call it legalised extortion and others might argue said billionaires can probably more quicker than a sclerotic Government and take their funds away.

    Yes, we can tax a little more and spend a little less and that might help - we can wait for technology to play its part to boost productivity (which is probably the core issue) - why pay a barista to get your coffee order wrong when a machine can get it wrong for you more quickly and efficiently?

    I think there's been a values change too again possibly related to the pandemic, possibly related to demographics around the kind of lives we want to live and the role of work and the importance of material acquisition within that life. That's by no means true of everyone and for many it remains a struggle from one week to the next and alleviating that struggle would be a help.
    If I were a conservative strategist (I am neither) seeking to reconnect with a younger audience I would suggest they focus on the environment. Obviously approach it very differently to the Greens, have green tech as a core growth industry and a lot of attention and messaging on the local rural environment above global issues. Conserve = Conservative
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,667

    Battlebus said:

    Was Goodwin chosen as he is the sort that would appeal to the people of G&D or is this simply MAGA playbook selecting 'the bloke from the TV'

    There have been a number of media types standing for parliament but how many of them have actually been successful?

    I think the importance of this by-election is overstated. It will come to mean absolutely nothing as did Hartlepool.

    The reality is that I think it unlikely Sir Keir goes this year. He will not lead Labour into the election but he’ll quit maybe next year or year after and give somebody a clear run at Reform.

    Personally I think Labour’s policies will start to bear fruit over the next 18 months or so and a new leader will have a decent inheritance. I suspect we will hear more on the small boats in the spring and that is really a test for what Labour can or can’t do.

    I think people here are far too keen to declare an election in 2029, in 2026.

    But I also think Badenoch is doing a decent job so what do I know really?
    I'm tempted to ask - what policies?

    Everything sane they've tried to do, they've U-turned on because their back benches won't wear it.

    Most of the insane stuff they've tried to do they've either U-turned on or gutted, because it's been obvious the country won't wear it or can't afford it.

    About the only things they appear to have achieved are putting VAT on private schools, and taxing businesses lots more to pay for bungs to public sector workers and those on benefits.

    The only sort of fruit any of that is likely to produce will resemble a turd. It's hardly laying the foundations of a new golden age...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,388
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    I don't think they just despise him due to Brexit. It's also the racism and grifting.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,076
    If Reform ditch Farage or he steps down does that toxicity go away?

    He's now got a bench of experienced politicians looking over his shoulder.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431
    Yes hence despite Starmer's deep unpopularity in polls he still often leads Farage as preferred PM
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,337
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    The ground rent policy and the vet bills policy are quite smart bits of politics.

    Ground rent policy doesn’t come into effect until 2028 and does nothing, I can see, that tackles high service charges although it is not to say it is not a good step forward. It is.

    The vet bills policy less so. I cannot see what the gain is. If they just list prices so people can shop around. People can do that anyway.

    Btw hope you’re well. Nice to see you back
    The Ground Rent policy could have some unforeseen impacts I think, because it reduces it to issues around single units rather than mixed blocks (meaning blocks ie areas rather than blocks of flats).

    One canary in the coalmine will be local independent shops where charges are currently held artificially low.

    Time will tell.

    On a separate note, I have not seen whether it is backdated, or applies to commercial properties.
    It is retrospective in the sense it applies to existing freeholds.

    But, yes, it could have unintended consequences. Once the bill is published we will get more of an idea.

    The govt is in a difficult position here as they need to get it right and ensure there’s no unintended consequences but they are already being accused of caving into freeholders by a very vocal and well supported by the media, anti freehold lobbying group.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,502

    stodge said:

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
    We keep hearing this from the Conservative-inclined on here (though whether they are more anti-Labour and anti-Reform than pro-Conservative varies from case to case).

    What is this "more coherent brand"? I'm told there's a "gap" in the market for something which might be called Conservative but again it all seems very fuzzy and ill-defined.

    We even have some extoling "One Nation" though without a scintilla of idea as to what that means in the mid to late 2020s.

    "What do the Conservatives stand for?" used to be a question no one asked but now it's a question worth asking. If we start from the basic questions around economic growth and the competing demands of an insecure, ageing society which needs more funds on both defence and social care simultaenously, how can any of this be funded within the current socio-economic framework?

    The Revolutionary Communsts would have you believe "the billionaires" are the answer - some might call it legalised extortion and others might argue said billionaires can probably more quicker than a sclerotic Government and take their funds away.

    Yes, we can tax a little more and spend a little less and that might help - we can wait for technology to play its part to boost productivity (which is probably the core issue) - why pay a barista to get your coffee order wrong when a machine can get it wrong for you more quickly and efficiently?

    I think there's been a values change too again possibly related to the pandemic, possibly related to demographics around the kind of lives we want to live and the role of work and the importance of material acquisition within that life. That's by no means true of everyone and for many it remains a struggle from one week to the next and alleviating that struggle would be a help.
    If I were a conservative strategist (I am neither) seeking to reconnect with a younger audience I would suggest they focus on the environment. Obviously approach it very differently to the Greens, have green tech as a core growth industry and a lot of attention and messaging on the local rural environment above global issues. Conserve = Conservative
    In a word, the Conservative offer should be: "Aspiration".

    Do any of the other parties really offer that? Certainly not Reform, that's for sure.

    It was a key element of Thatcherism, and the Tories have a certain degree of historical credibility with their emphasis on the "property-owning democracy" and lower the tax burden, especially on business. (In fact, businesses are a very much neglected interest group which, I imagine, is why Street and Davidson have so much emphasised that during the ProsperUK launch. Focusing on that would be way of moving on from the Brexit wars which trashed the party;s reputation with much of the business community.)

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,139
    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right
  • eekeek Posts: 32,405
    edited 9:38AM
    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right

    Isn’t Spanish youth unemployment already sky high?

    Edit yep first 2 figures I found were 25.5% and 29% - so this idea is utterly insane
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431
    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right

    More to add half a million extra Socialist and Podemos voters to try and defeat a PP and Vox leading Spanish polls
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,963
    tlg86 said:

    Good effort from Leicester Liz here:

    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/2016427386540003808

    @SophyRidgeSky
    I asked Liz Kendall about *that* video of @GoodwinMJ that Labour have put out

    The kind of trivia one now associates with Sky.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,850
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an interesting thread from someone with a lot of combat experience in Ukraine.
    It's a debate about strategy which would have been incomprehensible on a year or so back.

    Ukraine is not losing drone warfare tactically. Ukrainian units still kill large numbers of enemy infantry with FPVs daily.
    Ukraine is losing operationally and strategically because it never defined depth ownership as the goal.

    https://x.com/RyanO_ChosenCoy/status/2013382825475744075

    The arguments over defence procurement for the UK army are still rooted in the time before the Ukraine invasion.

    What the fuck does "never defined depth ownership as the goal" mean? He sounds like a LinkedIn wanker.

    Ukraine is losing operationally and strategically because of unreliable allies and a slowly metastasising political crisis in Kiev. The corrupt, arbitrary and often violent nature of the conscription process meant Z had to yield to domestic pressure and allow young men to leave the country last year. Half a million said cheers and immediately legged it west. All of that has a lot more to do with Ukraine's problems than a failure to define "depth ownership" as a goal.
    RTFT, as it explains that in some detail.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,380
    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right

    Well, that will go down like a cup of cold sick, among many Spanish voters. Presumably, the intention is to enfranchise them, in the hope of boosting the left wing vote.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,502
    Battlebus said:

    Was Goodwin chosen as he is the sort that would appeal to the people of G&D or is this simply MAGA playbook selecting 'the bloke from the TV'

    There have been a number of media types standing for parliament but how many of them have actually been successful?

    Closest they could get to Pete Hegseth.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431

    stodge said:

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
    We keep hearing this from the Conservative-inclined on here (though whether they are more anti-Labour and anti-Reform than pro-Conservative varies from case to case).

    What is this "more coherent brand"? I'm told there's a "gap" in the market for something which might be called Conservative but again it all seems very fuzzy and ill-defined.

    We even have some extoling "One Nation" though without a scintilla of idea as to what that means in the mid to late 2020s.

    "What do the Conservatives stand for?" used to be a question no one asked but now it's a question worth asking. If we start from the basic questions around economic growth and the competing demands of an insecure, ageing society which needs more funds on both defence and social care simultaenously, how can any of this be funded within the current socio-economic framework?

    The Revolutionary Communsts would have you believe "the billionaires" are the answer - some might call it legalised extortion and others might argue said billionaires can probably more quicker than a sclerotic Government and take their funds away.

    Yes, we can tax a little more and spend a little less and that might help - we can wait for technology to play its part to boost productivity (which is probably the core issue) - why pay a barista to get your coffee order wrong when a machine can get it wrong for you more quickly and efficiently?

    I think there's been a values change too again possibly related to the pandemic, possibly related to demographics around the kind of lives we want to live and the role of work and the importance of material acquisition within that life. That's by no means true of everyone and for many it remains a struggle from one week to the next and alleviating that struggle would be a help.
    If I were a conservative strategist (I am neither) seeking to reconnect with a younger audience I would suggest they focus on the environment. Obviously approach it very differently to the Greens, have green tech as a core growth industry and a lot of attention and messaging on the local rural environment above global issues. Conserve = Conservative
    In a word, the Conservative offer should be: "Aspiration".

    Do any of the other parties really offer that? Certainly not Reform, that's for sure.

    It was a key element of Thatcherism, and the Tories have a certain degree of historical credibility with their emphasis on the "property-owning democracy" and lower the tax burden, especially on business. (In fact, businesses are a very much neglected interest group which, I imagine, is why Street and Davidson have so much emphasised that during the ProsperUK launch. Focusing on that would be way of moving on from the Brexit wars which trashed the party;s reputation with much of the business community.)

    Given a choice between Farage or Badenoch most of the big business community would take the latter. Aspiration is more an issue for attracting lower middle and white working class voters and small businesses, most of whom were pro Brexit anyway.

    It might help with young people though who were less keen on Brexit and back Kemi's Stamp Duty abolition proposal
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,380
    None of this will help Labour in May, as they're fighting on four fronts.

    Against Reform in the Metropolitan boroughs, and Red Wall.

    Against the Conservatives in wealthier parts of Greater London.

    Against the Greens in urban left constituencies.

    And, against Plaid in Wales.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431
    rkrkrk said:

    If Reform ditch Farage or he steps down does that toxicity go away?

    He's now got a bench of experienced politicians looking over his shoulder.

    Jenrick and Braverman and Goodwin certainly aren't toxic, no definitely not
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,168
    rkrkrk said:

    If Reform ditch Farage or he steps down does that toxicity go away?

    He's now got a bench of experienced politicians looking over his shoulder.

    I believe the way Reform is structured means he's still untouchable, however once they win power, there'd be nothing to stop his MPs rebelling en masse and VONCing him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,596
    edited 9:41AM
    Nothing says we trust you to do business with...

    Members of the UK team are all on "disposable burner phone numbers and temporary email addresses", our political editor Chris Mason reports from the flight to Beijing. Modern tech like iPads and earbuds have all been "left at home under the bed", swapped for "notepads and pens" and other kit "that they might not bring back", he says. "Such is the anxiety about security, about bugging, about spying."

    I was advised this for even non-mainland like Hong Kong, as it is now not deemed safe from spying by many Western companies with valuable IP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431
    Penddu2 said:

    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.

    Galloway's party standing will also squeeze Green and Muslim voters
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152
    edited 9:42AM
    Taz said:

    Penddu2 said:

    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.

    I think all of this is absolutely right. I said to my Reform supporting friends that hoovering up failed Tories was not going to help them in the red wall. I don’t think it will. They cannot see it and think it’s great the likes of Braverman are switching. But then they mostly live in the Shires in Lib Dem-Tory contests.

    I’m in a Reform-Labour seat and would consider Reform but not if it’s a failed Tory tribute act, not if it fiscally imprudent and not if Darren Grimes is the candidate.
    It doesn't help Reform at all, for two reasons - firstly, the one you give, that it deters left-leaning red wall voters, and secondly, because it undermines Reform's USP of wanting to sweep away the "uniparty" and kick out all the politicians who have "messed everything up" so badly for so long.

    It helps Labour because it gives them an opportunity to win back some of the voters they have lost in cities and the north, and it helps the Tories - probably only marginally - by making their party a little less repellent.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,135
    edited 9:42AM
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Good effort from Leicester Liz here:

    https://x.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/2016427386540003808

    @SophyRidgeSky
    I asked Liz Kendall about *that* video of @GoodwinMJ that Labour have put out

    The kind of trivia one now associates with Sky.
    It was an avoidable error and has received considerable criticism

    Reform needs to lose and this just gives them another attack line against labour
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,587
    edited 9:45AM
    Time to post my wooden spoon entry for the 2026 Prediction #competition

    1) +38
    2) +4
    3) 55
    4) 47
    5) Ref 14%
    6) 24%
    7) 10
    8) Starmer
    9) No
    10) £129.5 billion
    11)1.7%
    12) England

    Don't forget - entries must be posted or PM'ed to me by midnight on Saturday 31 January.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,405
    edited 9:43AM

    Nothing says we trust you to do business with...

    Members of the UK team are all on "disposable burner phone numbers and temporary email addresses", our political editor Chris Mason reports from the flight to Beijing.

    Modern tech like iPads and earbuds have all been "left at home under the bed", swapped for "notepads and pens" and other kit "that they might not bring back", he says.

    "Such is the anxiety about security, about bugging, about spying."

    That’s no different to me going to the USA for Bae back in the early 2010s

    New empty laptop, different email address - rebuilt on return (it was a one off visit, otherwise you had a separate going to the US laptop).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,388
    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right

    The Telegraph's write-up is rather biased. Try https://www.dw.com/en/spain-to-grant-legal-status-to-500000-undocumented-migrants/a-75682942 for a better summary.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,388
    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain gives half a million migrants legal status to ‘defeat the far-Right’
    Applicants will be allowed to work in any sector to help curb ‘institutional racism that only fuels exploitation and racist hatred’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/01/27/spain-half-million-migrants-legal-status-defeat-far-right

    Well, that will go down like a cup of cold sick, among many Spanish voters. Presumably, the intention is to enfranchise them, in the hope of boosting the left wing vote.
    They get, if approved, a one-year renewable residency permit. They're not being given the vote.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,431
    Fishing said:

    Cameron's "detoxification" project was not only craven, because it involved abandoning policies that worked because focus groups and opinion pollsters told him were unpopular, but it didn't even work particularly well because he failed to get a majority against somebody as toxic and useless as Gordon Brown after a once-in-a-generation financial crisis, or to dent the large Lib Dem seat total in 2010.

    I happen to think that the electorate isn't quite as stupid as pollsters and the more cynical of the posters on here think. Enough voters will support policies regarded as "nasty" in the short term if the long term benefits are explained to them and they are convinced. Ditching policies you know are right because focus groups tell you to worked triumphantly for a once-in-a-generation political genius like Blair, who benefited hugely from the prosperity caused by those policies, but for a second-rate Blair clone like Cameron and the more cynical of his followers, it just made them look even more dishonest and phoney than Tony. It may have just about passed pre-2007, but it didn't really work in the much harsher economic climate of the 2010s.

    Cameron's 'detoxification' strategy was mainly aimed at Guardian readers, which didn't work as they would never vote Tory anyway. Despite a recession and deeply unpopular Labour PM he still failed to win a majority, even if the Tories only failed to take Hampstead by 42 votes.

    The 2015 and 2019 Conservative campaigns were more successful as they focused on lower middle class and skilled working class swing voters and the economy and Brexit respectively
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,587

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "@LukeTryl

    Labour leapfrog into second in this week’s voting intention on 22%. Reform’s lead drops to 7 on 29%, with the Tories third on 20%.

    ➡️ REF UK 29% (-2)
    🌹 LAB 22% (+2)
    🌳 CON 20% (-1)
    🔶 LIB DEM 13% (nc)
    🌍 GREEN 10% (-1)
    🟡 SNP 3% (+1)

    MoreInCommon
    N = 2,016 | 23 - 25/01| Change w 21/01

    Leader approvals - it’s very close at the top with Davey on -12 and Badenoch and Farage on -14. Starmer is far behind on -41 though this is higher than he’s been since Autumn, which from qual seems to reflect a recurring international affairs bounce."

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2016426715556262299

    9 of the last 13 polls have Reform under 30.

    In a world in which Labour and Reform draw level (which I can completely see in at least one poll), the danger for Sir Keir surely recedes at least temporarily.

    If Labour can get back up to 26% and squeeze the Greens, repeating 2024 (the victory, not the seats) really doesn’t sound so stupid to me.
    Appropriately given the weather, there's plenty of water to flow under the bridge yet.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,388
    HYUFD said:

    Penddu2 said:

    I think Farage has made a strategic mistake in recent weeks.... he believed that Reform's polling surge of mid-2025 represented a floor on which he could build. But as Caerffili showed, it was probably a ceiling - they have reached peak popularity, and adding more ex-Tories into the fold might appeal to ex-Tories but will just alienate even more ex-Labour voters. I expect him to be squeezed by anti-Reform tactical voting in Manchester letting Greens through - and generally to peg back by 3-5 points from his peak UK levels.

    Galloway's party standing will also squeeze Green and Muslim voters
    Maybe, or maybe they get squeezed. I wouldn't be surprised to see Workers Party, Conservative and LibDem all losing their deposits.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152

    stodge said:

    Farage thinks thus:

    I am popular
    These Tories want to join because I am popular
    We will be more popular with a more experienced team.

    A rather glaring error - the more Tories join, the lower Reform slide in the polls. Am I the only one watching a gradual shaving of their polling data and thinking its the Tory effect?

    Had decent Tories been joining then maybe it would be different. But its the scumbag Tories, the toxic Tories, the oh God not them Tories who are joining.

    Why are Reform popular? Its way beyond stop the boats - they articulate that the country is broken and they will fix it. That they have no plan to fix it doesn't matter, they at least recognise the lived experience of so many.

    But they're now adding in the very Tories who not only are seen to have broken Britain, but sneered at the people who are now Reform voters whilst doing it. Once we start seeing Jenrick, Braverman, Zahawi etc as spokespeople I expect the erosion will speed up ever so slightly.

    Reform will do very well in the May elections and we'll be distracted from their polling slow slide by it. But it is there.

    Pretty sure the vast majority of the Jenrick-Braverman supporters were already signalling for Reform in 2025. Most other Reform supporters would be happy enough to have them on board as fellow travellers but are there a few from Reform 2025 polling who are primarily anti-Conservative - absolutely and it is those votes that are at risk with the defections.

    Medium term I think it also gives space for the Conservatives to create a more coherent brand, although not sure if they will take or continue the perpetual in fighting of the last decade.
    We keep hearing this from the Conservative-inclined on here (though whether they are more anti-Labour and anti-Reform than pro-Conservative varies from case to case).

    What is this "more coherent brand"? I'm told there's a "gap" in the market for something which might be called Conservative but again it all seems very fuzzy and ill-defined.

    We even have some extoling "One Nation" though without a scintilla of idea as to what that means in the mid to late 2020s.

    "What do the Conservatives stand for?" used to be a question no one asked but now it's a question worth asking. If we start from the basic questions around economic growth and the competing demands of an insecure, ageing society which needs more funds on both defence and social care simultaenously, how can any of this be funded within the current socio-economic framework?

    The Revolutionary Communsts would have you believe "the billionaires" are the answer - some might call it legalised extortion and others might argue said billionaires can probably more quicker than a sclerotic Government and take their funds away.

    Yes, we can tax a little more and spend a little less and that might help - we can wait for technology to play its part to boost productivity (which is probably the core issue) - why pay a barista to get your coffee order wrong when a machine can get it wrong for you more quickly and efficiently?

    I think there's been a values change too again possibly related to the pandemic, possibly related to demographics around the kind of lives we want to live and the role of work and the importance of material acquisition within that life. That's by no means true of everyone and for many it remains a struggle from one week to the next and alleviating that struggle would be a help.
    If I were a conservative strategist (I am neither) seeking to reconnect with a younger audience I would suggest they focus on the environment. Obviously approach it very differently to the Greens, have green tech as a core growth industry and a lot of attention and messaging on the local rural environment above global issues. Conserve = Conservative
    That's the direction Cameron tried to go. But it's difficult nowadays for the Conservatives to argue that they are up for conserving anything.

    What they do need to do is focus on working age people more widely - the youngest cohorts of voters will probably always be stony ground for the sensible right - and escape from the cul-de-sac of appealing only to retired baby-boomers.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,689

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    I don't think they just despise him due to Brexit. It's also the racism and grifting.
    Personally I think its his highly punchable face, but whatever.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 54,152

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Does the polling imply that voters believe Farage less able to deliver on policy than even Starmer ?😲

    If it is like 2005 then implication is that if Farage supports it then enough voters think it must be a bad idea and they'll switch support for it to make a material difference.

    The problem for Reform is Farage is marmite. Some love him but plenty despise him due to Brexit. They won’t overcome that and that will harm them.
    I don't think they just despise him due to Brexit. It's also the racism and grifting.
    And because many more sensible voters know the smell of snake oil...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,964
    Fishing said:

    Cameron's "detoxification" project was not only craven, because it involved abandoning policies that worked because focus groups and opinion pollsters told him were unpopular, but it didn't even work particularly well because he failed to get a majority against somebody as toxic and useless as Gordon Brown after a once-in-a-generation financial crisis, or to dent the large Lib Dem seat total in 2010.

    I happen to think that the electorate isn't quite as stupid as pollsters and the more cynical of the posters on here think. Enough voters will support policies regarded as "nasty" in the short term if the long term benefits are explained to them and they are convinced. Ditching policies you know are right because focus groups tell you to worked triumphantly for a once-in-a-generation political genius like Blair, who benefited hugely from the prosperity caused by those policies, but for a second-rate Blair clone like Cameron and the more cynical of his followers, it just made them look even more dishonest and phoney than Tony. It may have just about passed pre-2007, but it didn't really work in the much harsher economic climate of the 2010s.

    The wishful thinking aside, I'm not convinced.

    The question isn't how oppositions win but how Governments lose. We've only had three changes of Government since 1979 which is remarkable. I would argue in all three cases there wasn't so much a huge outpouring of enthusiasm for the opposition as much as a fatigue with the incumbent Government which had been in office for over a decade (albeit with different Prime Ministers).

    Whether we are going back to a period of alternating one term Governments I don't know - it's also perfectly possible for deeply unpopular Governments to recover support as an election approaches but it doesn't always happen.

    The emergence of Reform might or might not complicate things - it's too early to tell, the SDP were supposed to break the mould but didn't and there's no guarantee Reform's lustre will still be the same in what may look a very different world in 2029.

    The paradox is voters often call for "honesty" from politicians but the voters run away from honesty if it's not what they want to hear so there's no electoral incentive for politicians to be honest.

    An "honest" debate about immigration for example wouldn't start from where we are in terms of perceptions of numbers vs reality. We now have ethno-nationalism as a growing albeit still minority viewpoint so we've gone well beyond "boats" - it's about people who look different, sound different, worship a different God etc, etc. That cuts through to fundamental questions about the kind of Britain we want to live in and whether that model is any way economically and socially viable.
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