Your Party might soon be the Just You Party – politicalbetting.com

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Your Party might soon be the Just You Party – politicalbetting.com

Iqbal Mohamed becomes the second MP to leave Your Party – just a week out from its inaugural conference https://t.co/SIEHMzZBiO

Read the full story here

Flatlander

Seems to be just me at _this_ party. Frist!

Barnesian

It has finished before it has begun.

Nigelb

A more succinct valedictory would have been "It's your party now."

HYUFD

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

StillWaters

Nigelb said:

A more succinct valedictory would have been "It's your party now."

It’s your party and you’ll cry if you want to?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_QfY16CxU&list=RDft_QfY16CxU&start_radio=1&pp=ygUnaXQncyBteSBwYXJ0eSBhbmQgaSdsbCBjcnkgaWYgaSB3YW50IHRvoAcB

NickPalmer

I guess I'm typical of the people flirting with Your Party, and I'm not too bothered by losing a couple of the independent MPs. Whether Zarah and Jeremy stay on board is more important, and the jury's frankly still out on that. We should know more in a couple of weeks.

squareroot2

The daily Mail to buy the Telegraph for 500m

MarqueeMark

Party of One, your table is ready...

MarqueeMark

TV rights must now be massively over-expensive for a two day test.

MustaphaMondeo

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Party of small sustainable business. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

MarqueeMark

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

TimS

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

biggles

MarqueeMark said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

I hadn’t looked into him better. From Wikipedia:

“Polanski worked with the theatre company DifferencENGINE as an immersive theatre actor…”

😂 There will be some hilarious video to emerge for the election of him pretending to be a tree or something.

Roger

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

I like the sound of 'The Independent Alliance' as a home for those on the left not wanting to join Zack's mob. Corbyn and Sultana are a joke and their very existance is damaging those who want a left wing party that isn't the Greens or Labour. They're too linked to Labour and failure to be seen as anything but wreckers. If you want to show support for Gaza and your loathing of all things Trump something generic is more likely to succeed than the Sultanas

MustaphaMondeo

MarqueeMark said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

We will see. I think a lot of people aren’t that bothered about the economic process towards a safer life, they just want to be somewhere friendly and hopeful. To be valued.

I’m very keen to calm down the rhetoric in meetings. I got into a bit of a barney about flags being okay last week. My view is that we are never going to undermine Farage by forcing his supporters to circle the wagons.

The Conservative Party is gone. Labour are our main source of members and votes, but I’m arguing for a secondary target, the small ‘c’s.

Carnyx

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

Not one for TSE, with all the pineapple and cheese and pickled onions on wooden cocktail sticks.

MarqueeMark

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

"Laurence, we're not here to hold conversations, we're here to enjoy ourselves."

kinabalu

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

Logo: a sausage on a stick
Conference anthem: Forever and Ever
Slogan: Are you alright there, Ange?

kjh

FPT #hyufd said: On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs.

@HYUFD I agree with what you have just said there wholeheartedly. Don't disagree with a single word of it. Unfortunately this was not the point you were making in the first place when I pointed out that places like Guildford, Woking and Camberley were not full of posh people. The towns are not particularly posh. The countryside around is a lot posher.

Just by complete chance I was just sent the following link. As you will see I could have written it with Sheerwater and places in Guildford getting particularly reference for their deprivation. Remember I mentioned Sheerwater and you claimed it not to be deprived because of house prices?

kjh

kjh said:

FPT #hyufd said: On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs.

@HYUFD I agree with what you have just said there wholeheartedly. Don't disagree with a single word of it. Unfortunately this was not the point you were making in the first place when I pointed out that places like Guildford, Woking and Camberley were not full of posh people. The towns are not particularly posh. The countryside around is a lot posher.

Just by complete chance I was just sent the following link. As you will see I could have written it with Sheerwater and places in Guildford getting particularly reference for their deprivation. Remember I mentioned Sheerwater and you claimed it not to be deprived because of house prices?

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/surreys-most-deprived-neighbourhoods-according-32901463?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

ydoethur

kjh said:

FPT #hyufd said: On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs.

@HYUFD I agree with what you have just said there wholeheartedly. Don't disagree with a single word of it. Unfortunately this was not the point you were making in the first place when I pointed out that places like Guildford, Woking and Camberley were not full of posh people. The towns are not particularly posh. The countryside around is a lot posher.

Just by complete chance I was just sent the following link. As you will see I could have written it with Sheerwater and places in Guildford getting particularly reference for their deprivation. Remember I mentioned Sheerwater and you claimed it not to be deprived because of house prices?

Can't see the link?

Edit - Ah, in a separate comment.

Roger

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

If Mike Leigh would lead it you might be onto something

williamglenn

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

"Rach, can you take a little bit of criticism? Now, please don't be offended when I say this, Rach, but I can see what you've done with the budget. Okay, you've just sat down at your desk and you've just thrown together whatever policy you found in your inbox. Now, next time, will you try this for me? Next time, sit down at your desk, and just look at yourself. Relax, and just say, "I've got very beautiful policies," and I promise you Rach, you're gonna see the difference."

Roger

biggles said:

MarqueeMark said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

I hadn’t looked into him better. From Wikipedia:

“Polanski worked with the theatre company DifferencENGINE as an immersive theatre actor…”

😂 There will be some hilarious video to emerge for the election of him pretending to be a tree or something.

I think talking a Sun jounalist into expanding her bosoms through hypnosis will be more interesting

CumberlandGap

MarqueeMark said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

Some are quite party to the no growth stuff. They have their house and their pension. Its a strange partnership.

SandyRentool

What a surprise that right-on lefties and advocates of Sharia Law don't sit comfortably in the same party.

ydoethur

Heh.

Nigelb

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

Nigelb

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

This is our continent, and there has been zero consultation with either Europe or the UK.

..The announcement of the US plans earlier this week blindsided other Ukraine allies, who had been kept in the dark over the content and format of the plan. There is concern in Europe that Russia has had too much say in negotiating a draft agreement, which is being presented to the Ukrainians as a done deal.

Driscoll defended this, saying it kept the process more manageable. “President Trump wants peace now. The more cooks in the kitchen, the harder it is to handle,” he said, according to the source present.

Julie Davis, the US chargée d’affaires in Kyiv, was also present at the meeting and told the other diplomats that although the terms of the deal were punishing for Ukraine, it had little choice but to accept or face worse in future. “The deal does not get better from here, it gets worse,” she said.

Trump is keen for Zelenskyy to agree to the deal by Thanksgiving, which is on Thursday..

These are not serious people, but this is extremely serious, possibly existential for our future.

TimS

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

Nigelb

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

It doesn't really matter.

What's very clear is that the US is trying to force a capitulation, in the space of a week, which would see Europe, at best, in a state of cold war, with all the costs that entails, for the foreseeable future.

At worst, it sets the conditions for another invasion at far worse odds for Europe than exist now.

Jim_Miller

FPT: On cats seeking better weather: Robert Heinlein wrote a novel which begins with that subject. Here's how he explained the inspiration:

When we were living in Colorado there was snowfall. Our cat—I'm a cat man—wanted to get out of the house so I opened a door for him but he wouldn't leave. Just kept on crying. He'd seen snow before and I couldn't understand it. I kept opening other doors for him and he still wouldn't leave. Then Ginny said, "Oh, he's looking for a door into summer." I threw up my hands, told her not to say another word, and wrote the novel The Door into Summer in 13 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Door_into_Summer

(It's not one of his best, but I did like the cat part.)

Big_G_NorthWales

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

MarqueeMark

kinabalu said:

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

Logo: a sausage on a stick
Conference anthem: Forever and Ever
Slogan: Are you alright there, Ange?

Famously, it was improvised. Politics as "make it up as you go along"? It will never catch on....

DecrepiterJohnL

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

MarqueeMark

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

Kompromat. Putin has one shot to use it before Epstein destroys its value.

rcs1000

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

rcs1000

NickPalmer said:

I guess I'm typical of the people flirting with Your Party, and I'm not too bothered by losing a couple of the independent MPs. Whether Zarah and Jeremy stay on board is more important, and the jury's frankly still out on that. We should know more in a couple of weeks.

The fact that Zarah seems to have... chosen to hang on to... 800k of the party's funds doesn't worry you?

Big_G_NorthWales

What's happening to Liverpool ?

3 down to Forest at Anfield after 83 minutes

BartholomewRoberts

Good grief Liverpool.

Sunil_Prasannan

rcs1000 said:

NickPalmer said:

I guess I'm typical of the people flirting with Your Party, and I'm not too bothered by losing a couple of the independent MPs. Whether Zarah and Jeremy stay on board is more important, and the jury's frankly still out on that. We should know more in a couple of weeks.

The fact that Zarah seems to have... chosen to hang on to... 800k of the party's funds doesn't worry you?

She also seems to be not too sympathetic towards Ukraine.

kinabalu

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

TimS said:

Someone should establish Abigail’s Party.

Logo: a sausage on a stick
Conference anthem: Forever and Ever
Slogan: Are you alright there, Ange?

Famously, it was improvised. Politics as "make it up as you go along"? It will never catch on....

Yes, Leigh encouraged improv. When it works it works, when it doesn't oh dear.

rcs1000

squareroot2 said:

The daily Mail to buy the Telegraph for 500m

Which is an extraordinary demonsrtation of the extent to which newspapers' values (the New York Times and the FT excepted) have collapsed.

DecrepiterJohnL

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

rcs1000

biggles said:

MarqueeMark said:

MustaphaMondeo said:

HYUFD said:

Yes, the Polanski Greens have now taken the place of Your Party as the natural home for the Corbynite Starmer hating old leftie.

Though Your Party could still win a few seats in Muslim heavy areas like Birmingham, Dewsbury, Leicester and Blackburn the Independent Alliance won seats in 2024 plus maybe in Bradford and Slough and Luton and Newham and Tower Hamlets

question.

GPEW 170k members. 100k of them new to the party. Are there really that many Corbynites?

And tbh, I’d say we have loads of small c conservatives looking for a home too. Water company and rail nationalisation, looking after the environment. Keeping the NHS. It’s their kind of thing.

Meetings are getting quite interesting.

Those small "c" conservatives will be first out the door when they realise the true political offering of Polanski. It really won't be their kind of thing.

I hadn’t looked into him better. From Wikipedia:

“Polanski worked with the theatre company DifferencENGINE as an immersive theatre actor…”

😂 There will be some hilarious video to emerge for the election of him pretending to be a tree or something.

29 seconds in: https://youtu.be/M-skHC84AhU?si=niK4BPh00B2ea40g

rottenborough

Nigelb said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

It doesn't really matter.

What's very clear is that the US is trying to force a capitulation, in the space of a week, which would see Europe, at best, in a state of cold war, with all the costs that entails, for the foreseeable future.

At worst, it sets the conditions for another invasion at far worse odds for Europe than exist now.

How many hours until the Trump TACO?

rcs1000

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

That all happened in the past. There is no foreign aid to Ukraine any more, is there?

SonofContrarian

Big_G_NorthWales said:

What's happening to Liverpool ?

3 down to Forest at Anfield after 83 minutes

We're just not very good this season..big money signings not integrated into team..💩

DecrepiterJohnL

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

That all happened in the past. There is no foreign aid to Ukraine any more, is there?

Just this week MTG complained about missile transfers to Ukraine via NATO. Take it up with her. The point is that MAGA isolationists want America First, and worry that Trump has been seduced by anti-Russia, pro-Israel neocons into supporting their wars.

Sunil_Prasannan

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

What diplomacy? Trump is Putin's b*tch.

rcs1000

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

SandraMc

Regarding the "poshness" of Surrey, when I lived there, in the same road lived 2 members of Pan's People plus Stuart Freeborn ( the man who created Yoda). (Not together). Adam Faith lived in the next road and George Harrison and Patti Boyd lived nearby. Whether this is posh depends on your taste.

kinabalu

MarqueeMark said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

Kompromat. Putin has one shot to use it before Epstein destroys its value.

Doubt that. Trump's just a day-to-day mood merchant. Which of my smorgasbord of impulses am I going with today? It's understandable people want to see more. The most powerful person on the planet, holding the highest of elected offices, surely there's something other than this to explain his behaviour? But I really don't think so.

Mexicanpete

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

AnneJGP said:

kjh said:

noneoftheabove said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

algarkirk said:

Roger said:

The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.

The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either

You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.

Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

It is, but I'm sorry that analysis is not correct. You are just looking at the High St. Nobody lives there. They live around it. Park Barn is a huge ex council estate. Most of the other houses in the town are old small terraces. Once you move out further you get to housing estates of flats, semis, and small detached houses. There are only a handful of big houses in Guildford itself and many of those are multiple occupancy flats eh York Rd. Outside of Guildford you get the posh villages. We expect to win the town. Victory is achieved my squeezing the villages. Not to winning them but minimising the loss.

Woking is even more so. People have an odd view of Surrey. Sheerwater in Woking or Old Dean in Camberley are not just not posh they are very unposh.

I used to frequent Camberley quite a bit so I know you're correct. However, when I visited Haslemere (the very centre of it) even the charity shops were above my touch. My first few visits they did have a Wetherspoon's but that was sold off & became a much posher restaurant. After that it was salad bowl & roll in my hotel room (and even they had to come from Waitrose).

I recognise the depiction of Guildford from my time as a resident of Merrow Park, although that outer suburb/village was quite strongly LD. Park Barn is where I worked, and it is definitely not posh.

The Cotswolds however are not universally 'naice'. Try spending a Saturday night in Gloucester, or even Cheltenham, if you wish to be disabused of the notion.

Thanks for that confirmation Peter, again from someone who has actually been there rather than the imagined impression.

I am reminded of the shock here when Reform won a by election in Addlestone, because it was in Surrey. Anyone who knows Addlestone was not surprised at all.

Of course there are exceptions. Matching Green not too far from where we live in rural Essex has an average house price of £929,167 and is probably posher than most of Surrey, with plenty of old farming families nearby, grade listed buildings near the Green and the hunt on Boxing Day,

On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs

Are you sure you are not posting from the 1950s?

I sometimes wish I was, on a summer day in Matching with little traffic about you could be back in the 1950s

Hanging, flogging, grammar schools, national service, red telephone kiosks and half timbered cars.

What's not to like?

MarqueeMark

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

That all happened in the past. There is no foreign aid to Ukraine any more, is there?

Just this week MTG complained about missile transfers to Ukraine via NATO. Take it up with her. The point is that MAGA isolationists want America First, and worry that Trump has been seduced by anti-Russia, pro-Israel neocons into supporting their wars.

I can never understand how they would rather American workers were made redundant rather than making missiles for use in Ukraine.

DecrepiterJohnL

SandraMc said:

Regarding the "poshness" of Surrey, when I lived there, in the same road lived 2 members of Pan's People plus Stuart Freeborn ( the man who created Yoda). (Not together). Adam Faith lived in the next road and George Harrison and Patti Boyd lived nearby. Whether this is posh depends on your taste.

Michael Caine on Adam Faith (one-minute clip from Parkinson)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CT3RGAgNY1U

kinabalu

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

bigjohnowls

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I quite like him!!

Mexicanpete

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Nigelb

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

They have already pretty well halted further aid, and the diplomacy now appears to be on Putin's behalf.

kinabalu

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

Of course he hasn't.

Mexicanpete

kinabalu said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

Without a citation, rather than "this is my interpretation of a Sky news item", I wonder whether BigG is being a little mischievous. If he is proved correct I would agree Starmer is a scumbag.

kinabalu

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

DougSeal

The Slot machine has run out of credit.

Mexicanpete

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

MarqueeMark

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

AnneJGP said:

kjh said:

noneoftheabove said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

algarkirk said:

Roger said:

The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.

The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either

You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.

Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

It is, but I'm sorry that analysis is not correct. You are just looking at the High St. Nobody lives there. They live around it. Park Barn is a huge ex council estate. Most of the other houses in the town are old small terraces. Once you move out further you get to housing estates of flats, semis, and small detached houses. There are only a handful of big houses in Guildford itself and many of those are multiple occupancy flats eh York Rd. Outside of Guildford you get the posh villages. We expect to win the town. Victory is achieved my squeezing the villages. Not to winning them but minimising the loss.

Woking is even more so. People have an odd view of Surrey. Sheerwater in Woking or Old Dean in Camberley are not just not posh they are very unposh.

I used to frequent Camberley quite a bit so I know you're correct. However, when I visited Haslemere (the very centre of it) even the charity shops were above my touch. My first few visits they did have a Wetherspoon's but that was sold off & became a much posher restaurant. After that it was salad bowl & roll in my hotel room (and even they had to come from Waitrose).

I recognise the depiction of Guildford from my time as a resident of Merrow Park, although that outer suburb/village was quite strongly LD. Park Barn is where I worked, and it is definitely not posh.

The Cotswolds however are not universally 'naice'. Try spending a Saturday night in Gloucester, or even Cheltenham, if you wish to be disabused of the notion.

Thanks for that confirmation Peter, again from someone who has actually been there rather than the imagined impression.

I am reminded of the shock here when Reform won a by election in Addlestone, because it was in Surrey. Anyone who knows Addlestone was not surprised at all.

Of course there are exceptions. Matching Green not too far from where we live in rural Essex has an average house price of £929,167 and is probably posher than most of Surrey, with plenty of old farming families nearby, grade listed buildings near the Green and the hunt on Boxing Day,

On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs

Are you sure you are not posting from the 1950s?

I sometimes wish I was, on a summer day in Matching with little traffic about you could be back in the 1950s

Hanging, flogging, grammar schools, national service, red telephone kiosks and half timbered cars.

What's not to like?

And still a chunk of Empire...

DecrepiterJohnL

DougSeal said:

The Slot machine has run out of credit.

TSE can save himself a couple of quid by not bothering with the lottery tonight.

Mexicanpete

MarqueeMark said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

AnneJGP said:

kjh said:

noneoftheabove said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

algarkirk said:

Roger said:

The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.

The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either

You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.

Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

It is, but I'm sorry that analysis is not correct. You are just looking at the High St. Nobody lives there. They live around it. Park Barn is a huge ex council estate. Most of the other houses in the town are old small terraces. Once you move out further you get to housing estates of flats, semis, and small detached houses. There are only a handful of big houses in Guildford itself and many of those are multiple occupancy flats eh York Rd. Outside of Guildford you get the posh villages. We expect to win the town. Victory is achieved my squeezing the villages. Not to winning them but minimising the loss.

Woking is even more so. People have an odd view of Surrey. Sheerwater in Woking or Old Dean in Camberley are not just not posh they are very unposh.

I used to frequent Camberley quite a bit so I know you're correct. However, when I visited Haslemere (the very centre of it) even the charity shops were above my touch. My first few visits they did have a Wetherspoon's but that was sold off & became a much posher restaurant. After that it was salad bowl & roll in my hotel room (and even they had to come from Waitrose).

I recognise the depiction of Guildford from my time as a resident of Merrow Park, although that outer suburb/village was quite strongly LD. Park Barn is where I worked, and it is definitely not posh.

The Cotswolds however are not universally 'naice'. Try spending a Saturday night in Gloucester, or even Cheltenham, if you wish to be disabused of the notion.

Thanks for that confirmation Peter, again from someone who has actually been there rather than the imagined impression.

I am reminded of the shock here when Reform won a by election in Addlestone, because it was in Surrey. Anyone who knows Addlestone was not surprised at all.

Of course there are exceptions. Matching Green not too far from where we live in rural Essex has an average house price of £929,167 and is probably posher than most of Surrey, with plenty of old farming families nearby, grade listed buildings near the Green and the hunt on Boxing Day,

On average though Surrey is not only posher than Essex but probably the poshest county in England, although the Cotswolds belt of Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire and Berkshire and Bucks are not far behind, all also areas the LDs now have lots of MPs

Are you sure you are not posting from the 1950s?

I sometimes wish I was, on a summer day in Matching with little traffic about you could be back in the 1950s

Hanging, flogging, grammar schools, national service, red telephone kiosks and half timbered cars.

What's not to like?

And still a chunk of Empire...

I missed out childhood, potentially fatal diseases and rationing.

FF43

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

numbertwelve

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Starmer changing his position? Never seen that one before.

another_richard

Nigelb said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

It doesn't really matter.

What's very clear is that the US is trying to force a capitulation, in the space of a week, which would see Europe, at best, in a state of cold war, with all the costs that entails, for the foreseeable future.

At worst, it sets the conditions for another invasion at far worse odds for Europe than exist now.

Which is why Europe's leaders need to tell Trump no and act in support of Ukraine.

That means Starmer, Macron, Merz and most of all Tusk.

DougSeal

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

Mexicanpete

FF43 said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

The EU and the UK do appear to be asleep at the wheel since the Oval Office suit fiasco.

NATO is currently dead on its arse. Trump has undermined it whilst Rutte seems like a rabbit in the headlights.

Sean_F

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

rcs1000 said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TimS said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

I’m left wondering what happened to trigger this development, given that the US and Trump seemed to be hardening in their rhetoric towards Russia in recent months, and softening towards Ukraine.

Some sort of blackmail, perhaps? National or personal.

You can come up with any number of rationalisations. Perhaps Trump wants to go out on a winner (for him) if we are to believe that he will not last the full term. Or it could be a reaction to MAGA isolationists' pressure to get America out of this foreign war (see MTG). Russia could have reminded Trump that China is his real enemy. We can speculate all day but I'm not sure it matters; we are where we are. The Telegraph analysis did suggest a couple of the 28 points were in Ukraine's favour but if Russia has its fingers crossed behind its back...

In what way is America "in this foreign war"?

Billions of dollars in aid, however you count it, and diplomacy.

That all happened in the past. There is no foreign aid to Ukraine any more, is there?

A threat to cut off aid to Ukraine is an empty one, as there is no aid being provided, other than intelligence.

Even then, it's likely that quite a lot of intelligence on Ukraine is going directly to Moscow, via the US government.

isam

SandraMc said:

Regarding the "poshness" of Surrey, when I lived there, in the same road lived 2 members of Pan's People plus Stuart Freeborn ( the man who created Yoda). (Not together). Adam Faith lived in the next road and George Harrison and Patti Boyd lived nearby. Whether this is posh depends on your taste.

Sounds like you lived on Stella St!

TheScreamingEagles

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

Without a citation, rather than "this is my interpretation of a Sky news item", I wonder whether BigG is being a little mischievous. If he is proved correct I would agree Starmer is a scumbag.

The comments by Sky News/Big G are not in alignment with the actual quotes, the whack a mole is to get a united Europe behind Ukraine, here's the statement from the European leaders, the big concern is Orban.

“We believe therefore that the draft is a basis which will require additional work. We are ready to engage in order to ensure that a future peace is sustainable. We are clear on the principle that borders must not be changed by force. We are also concerned by the proposed limitations on Ukraine’s armed forces, which would leave Ukraine vulnerable to future attack.

“We reiterate that the implementation of elements relating to the European Union and relating to Nato would need the consent of EU and Nato members respectively.

“We take this opportunity to underline the strength of our continued support to Ukraine. We will continue to co-ordinate closely with Ukraine and the US over the coming days.”

The statement was signed by the leaders of Canada, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Norway, as well as Britain. Ursula von der Leyen and Alberto Costa, the presidents of the European Commission and European Council, also signed the statement.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/g20-south-africa-keir-starmer-ukraine-peace-plan-9lmz9w5qc

Sean_F

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

I would have assumed that that was the case.

Mexicanpete

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

solarflare

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

As long as "more to do" equates to "rip most of it up and start again", all's good...

Big_G_NorthWales

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Beth Rigby's description but I did raise an eyebrow

kinabalu

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

Without a citation, rather than "this is my interpretation of a Sky news item", I wonder whether BigG is being a little mischievous. If he is proved correct I would agree Starmer is a scumbag.

We will find that his 'whack a mole' with European leaders (if he is doing such) is to try and get a coordinated response.

But I'm probably too late. The hare is running - #scumbagstarmer is trending on PB.

Sunil_Prasannan

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

Without a citation, rather than "this is my interpretation of a Sky news item", I wonder whether BigG is being a little mischievous. If he is proved correct I would agree Starmer is a scumbag.

We will find that his 'whack a mole' with European leaders (if he is doing such) is to try and get a coordinated response.

But I'm probably too late. The hare is running - #scumbagstarmer is trending on PB.

#SKSICIPM ?

Big_G_NorthWales

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

Mexicanpete

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

Starmer isn't trying to get this 'deal' agreed. C'mon. Inverted commas since I don't think it should be called a deal. It's an unrealistic proposal from only one of the two warring nations (Russia).

Without a citation, rather than "this is my interpretation of a Sky news item", I wonder whether BigG is being a little mischievous. If he is proved correct I would agree Starmer is a scumbag.

The comments by Sky News/Big G are not in alignment with the actual quotes, the whack a mole is to get a united Europe behind Ukraine, here's the statement from the European leaders, the big concern is Orban.

“We believe therefore that the draft is a basis which will require additional work. We are ready to engage in order to ensure that a future peace is sustainable. We are clear on the principle that borders must not be changed by force. We are also concerned by the proposed limitations on Ukraine’s armed forces, which would leave Ukraine vulnerable to future attack.

“We reiterate that the implementation of elements relating to the European Union and relating to Nato would need the consent of EU and Nato members respectively.

“We take this opportunity to underline the strength of our continued support to Ukraine. We will continue to co-ordinate closely with Ukraine and the US over the coming days.”

The statement was signed by the leaders of Canada, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Norway, as well as Britain. Ursula von der Leyen and Alberto Costa, the presidents of the European Commission and European Council, also signed the statement.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/g20-south-africa-keir-starmer-ukraine-peace-plan-9lmz9w5qc

Thanks to both yourself and @DougSeal for clearing that up. BigG. has been quite naughty.

another_richard

Mexicanpete said:

FF43 said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

The EU and the UK do appear to be asleep at the wheel since the Oval Office suit fiasco.

NATO is currently dead on its arse. Trump has undermined it whilst Rutte seems like a rabbit in the headlights.

One purpose of international organisations is to allow national 'leaders' to avoid taking decisions.

The EU and NATO cannot stop Russia but Poland and Germany can.

Mexicanpete

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

That isn't how @TheScreamingEagles and @DougSeal have explained the statement. I am more comfortable with their analysis than Beth Rigby's.

Big_G_NorthWales

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

That isn't how @TheScreamingEagles and @DougSeal have explained the statement. I am more comfortable with their analysis than Beth Rigby's.

As I said earlier her words did raise an eyebrow

TheScreamingEagles

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

But you missed out the next part.

Here's the full interview, you should be ashamed that you used that quote without her following words.

From 1min 40 secs onwards, PBers can see for themselves.

https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1992267234400481495

FF43

Mexicanpete said:

FF43 said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

The EU and the UK do appear to be asleep at the wheel since the Oval Office suit fiasco.

NATO is currently dead on its arse. Trump has undermined it whilst Rutte seems like a rabbit in the headlights.

Merz, Macron and Starmer seem very aligned. They are also talking a lot to Zelenskyy who does appear ready to deal on not particularly favourable terms - presumably Ukraine is exhausted. When push comes to shove i suspect all three of them will choose America over Ukraine. They don't want to make that choice but are perhaps being forced into it.

kinabalu

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

RCS's post that (if true) Starmer is contemptible scum is racking up viral likes!

Halfway round the world, truth still lacing up its plimsolls.

TheScreamingEagles

NEW: Trump is asked if the US proposals for Ukraine are final

“No,” he replies, suggesting some willingness to negotiate ahead of Geneva meetings tomorrow

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1992285728626118695

Mexicanpete

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

FF43 said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

The EU and the UK do appear to be asleep at the wheel since the Oval Office suit fiasco.

NATO is currently dead on its arse. Trump has undermined it whilst Rutte seems like a rabbit in the headlights.

One purpose of international organisations is to allow national 'leaders' to avoid taking decisions.

The EU and NATO cannot stop Russia but Poland and Germany can.

I don't understand your fixation with a unilateral Poland taking on the Russian Bear. What is the point of them being in NATO or the EU if they have to go it alone.

scampi25

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

That isn't how @TheScreamingEagles and @DougSeal have explained the statement. I am more comfortable with their analysis than Beth Rigby's.

They're not reporting on Sky News!

kinabalu

Update after investigation: Starmer NOT scum. Putin and Trump still are.

Big_G_NorthWales

TheScreamingEagles said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

But you missed out the next part.

Here's the full interview, you should be ashamed that you used that quote without her following words.

From 1min 40 secs onwards, PBers can see for themselves.

https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1992267234400481495

Thank you for posting the interview and I am pleased that everyone can see it

another_richard

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

FF43 said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

I think Starmer is trying to subvert the deal by making it more acceptable to Ukraine while pretending it's still Donald Trump's proposal. Questions are whether the chasm between the US/Russia position and the Ukrainian one is bridgeable and what happens if not.

The EU and the UK do appear to be asleep at the wheel since the Oval Office suit fiasco.

NATO is currently dead on its arse. Trump has undermined it whilst Rutte seems like a rabbit in the headlights.

One purpose of international organisations is to allow national 'leaders' to avoid taking decisions.

The EU and NATO cannot stop Russia but Poland and Germany can.

I don't understand your fixation with a unilateral Poland taking on the Russian Bear. What is the point of them being in NATO or the EU if they have to go it alone.

I don't think it should be unilateral, I think other countries should support Poland in so doing.

But relying on EU or NATO approval means that the likes of Trump and Orban would be given a veto.

Which is very handy for those countries which are happy to do nothing.

Mexicanpete

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

RCS's post that (if true) Starmer is contemptible scum is racking up viral likes!

Halfway round the world, truth still lacing up its plimsolls.

Hats off to BigG. he's smashed the white flag Starmer narrative out of the park..

rottenborough

TheScreamingEagles said:

NEW: Trump is asked if the US proposals for Ukraine are final

“No,” he replies, suggesting some willingness to negotiate ahead of Geneva meetings tomorrow

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1992285728626118695

TACO incoming.

TheScreamingEagles

scampi25 said:

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

Mexicanpete said:

kinabalu said:

Mexicanpete said:

rcs1000 said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigelb said:

The Trump/Putin deal gets worse, the more is known about it.

US tells Nato if Zelenskyy does not sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/nov/22/ukraine-zelenskyy-peace-deal-us-nato-meeting

American is now actively threatening Ukraine in an attempt to force them to accept, at extraordinarily short notice a deal which would see them
abandon a fortified front line;
officially hand over territory to an illegal invader; cut their armed forces;
restrict their legal right to defend themselves against future aggression;
limit their sovereignty to make alliances;
require them to rewrite their constitution;
refuse the rest of Europe the right to station forces in their soil;
indemnify Russia against any and all the war crimes it has committed - including the killing of tens of thousands of civilians;
pay future monetary tribute to the US;

In return for zero concessions from Russia.

This is madness.

It is simply betrayal of Ukraine and unforgiveable

Sky reporting Starmer is 'whack a mole' European leaders in trying to stop them rebelling

If so he is as bad as Trump and should be ashamed

My daughter in law in Vancouver and all her family are off Ukrainian descent

If Starmer really has signed up to the US plan, he is utterly contemptible scum.

I would agree, but I'd like a reliable citation. This seems at odds with Starmer's previous position.

Has to be nonsense. 100%.

If such an accusation proves to be false, that is a little bit naughty from our Sky correspondent.

FFS. That’s a total misrepresentation of what Sky is saying. I don’t think the guy’s very good either but I’m amazed no one on here has accused him of being Jack the Ripper. Sky say -

“The prime minister said on Saturday that there was "more to do on the plan" in the coming days and the focus now was to try to make progress in Geneva.
He said he would speak to President Zelenskyy later on Saturday as allies try to swing this deal more in Ukraine's favour, with the UK and other international leaders clear on their concerns to limit the size of the Ukrainian army and give up territory to Russia.
But in his remarks on camera, the prime minister was at pains to neither criticise the current deal nor President Trump.
…
One figure told me that the PM wants to act as a bridge between the Europeans and the US and has been playing a "game of whack-a-mole" over the past couple of days in an effort to keep others from publicly saying the deal is unacceptable for fear it would only serve to irritate President Trump and hurt Ukraine.
The prime minister has yet to talk to the US president about the plan, but says he will talk to him in the coming days.
"I'm absolutely clear in my mind that President Trump wants a just and lasting peace, not just from the actions he's taken towards that end, but also from the private discussions that I've had with him," Starmer said.
"So I know what he's trying to achieve. We all want to achieve that."
But there will be a question about what the alternative options are if allies cannot improve this deal by President Trump's Thursday deadline. “

That being so, BigG's interpretation is wholly disingenuous. He needs to apologise.

I don't think using Ukraine as a party political point scoring exercise is acceptable.

Not my words - Beth Rigby

That isn't how @TheScreamingEagles and @DougSeal have explained the statement. I am more comfortable with their analysis than Beth Rigby's.

They're not reporting on Sky News!

I nearly did last year.

MarqueeMark

SonofContrarian said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

What's happening to Liverpool ?

3 down to Forest at Anfield after 83 minutes

We're just not very good this season..big money signings not integrated into team..💩

Back-to-back Forest wins at Anfield didn't look very likely a few weeks ago.