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The Scottish Playbook – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,791
edited November 17 in General
The Scottish Playbook – politicalbetting.com

Where Scotland leads, the English government follows. Really? Well, how else to explain the government’s recent actions following the Supreme Court’s judgment in For Women Scotland (2) (“FWS”)? It seems to be hanging onto their manly kilts by following precisely the Scottish government’s behaviour – not just following this judgment but an earlier one (FWS (1) – see here).

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,437
    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,877
    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Is this the Daly and Keir decision?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,174
    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Any court judgement with two Cadbury flakes stuffed into it is better than those without.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,437
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Is this the Daly and Keir decision?
    The 16th April one. FWS Ltd v The Scottish Ministers.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,174
    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,084
    edited November 17
    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    If the governments of the land ignore or only pretend to accept a Supreme Court judgement will it magically go away (trans women edition)?
  • Re the header, what is the problem? If the Supreme Court judgment was as claimed, then this case will not change anything aside from the enrichment of a few lawyers.

    Or is the problem that the Supreme Court judgment was not quite clear-cut?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,174
    Foss said:

    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    If the governments of the land ignore or only pretend to accept a Supreme Court judgement will it magically go away (trans women edition)?
    Well your a much better person than I am if you can unpick such meaning. I don't want to criticise @Cyclefree, but criticism it must be.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,753
    edited November 17
    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    If TSE did the title then there's some subtle Macbeth reference somewhere in the text?

    Maybe a reference to "What bloody man is that?", "Present fears are less than horrible imaginings." Or even: "Is this a dagger which I see before me, the handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee: I have thee not, and yet I see thee still." :wink:

    ETA: D'oh, missed the first comment!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,753
    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Gaza debate, followed by trans. Its party day on PB!

    Can I just state that I think Brexit was an excellent idea?
  • Selebian said:

    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    If TSE did the title then there's some subtle Macbeth reference somewhere in the text?

    Maybe a reference to "What bloody man is that?", "Present fears are less than horrible imaginings." Or even: "Is this a dagger which I see before me, the handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee: I have thee not, and yet I see thee still." :wink:
    This is all Cyclefree.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,784
    edited November 17
    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

    And the GLP challenge to the EHRC guidance:-
    https://goodlawproject.org/update/were-taking-on-the-ehrc-interim-guidance-in-court/
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,084
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Gaza debate, followed by trans. Its party day on PB!

    Can I just state that I think Brexit was an excellent idea?
    Something, something... Radiohead?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,339
    I can only imagine that those who would prefer the law to be other than what the SC have declared it to be, are hoping that everyone else will just get bored and give up. It would be much more sensible to put their efforts into changing the actual law through parliament.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,174

    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

    And the GLP challenge to the EHRC guidance:-
    https://goodlawproject.org/update/were-taking-on-the-ehrc-interim-guidance-in-court/
    Yes. Good links. But what are we asked to consider or conclude?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,259
    edited November 17
    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974
  • DavidL said:

    Re the header, what is the problem? If the Supreme Court judgment was as claimed, then this case will not change anything aside from the enrichment of a few lawyers.

    Or is the problem that the Supreme Court judgment was not quite clear-cut?

    No, the problem is that significant parts of the UK government and almost all of the Scottish government were disappointed when the SC told them what the law was because it was not as they wished it to be. So, they are dragging their feet in its implementation by, for example, pretending that they need "guidance" (they don't, it doesn't change the law) and time to "consider" the implications. This is resulting in more court cases against public authorities which are being defended on bases rejected by the SC, all at public expense. It is more than a bit irritating.
    Well it is lucky they do not need guidance because the EHRC guidance was, it is claimed, issued, then revised, then withdrawn. I suppose it must still exist in some form else what are they arguing about now?
  • IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
  • Jim Hacker channels his inner Keir Starmer (30 seconds):-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jip0x4G4QzM
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,877
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Is this the Daly and Keir decision?
    The 16th April one. FWS Ltd v The Scottish Ministers.
    It's another Lord Reed special. Long, slightly dull, a touch pedantic in places and crystal clear.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,231
    Omnium said:

    Does anyone actually have any idea what the header is about?

    (Asking for a friend)

    Yes
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    edited November 17
    ...
  • Is it yet another example of the Govt being scared witless of its Prog Left backbenchers?

    Or is the Prog Left viewpoint so ingrained in them that they remain in denial about the FWS decision?

    Or are they sending a nod and a wink to interested parties that people don't have to take the FWS decision seriously?

    Or all three. Either way this is an argument between biological, empirical fact and wishful ideology. There should only be one winner.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,259
    edited November 17
    Maybe I am being cynical, but is part of the attraction of Labours new asylum proposals is that those allowed in now on ‘temporary’ (aka up to twenty years) status won’t be counted as permanent immigrants and hence would make the immigration stats look better (along the same lines as Thatcher’s redefinition of who counts as unemployed), whereas in reality they’re all here for a long time, and probably for ever, just as before?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,231

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,566

    Is it yet another example of the Govt being scared witless of its Prog Left backbenchers?

    Or is the Prog Left viewpoint so ingrained in them that they remain in denial about the FWS decision?

    Or are they sending a nod and a wink to interested parties that people don't have to take the FWS decision seriously?

    Or all three. Either way this is an argument between biological, empirical fact and wishful ideology. There should only be one winner.

    More that this government is afraid, above all, of governing.

    They need to choose a position. But that would require a drive. Conviction. Principles, perhaps.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    edited November 17
    (Godsdammit Cyclefree, you're lapping me. I'm going to have to accelerate my article)

    OK, to answer your question "Why, for instance, is counsel stating that transwomen i.e. men who identify as women should be allowed into a female only space, such as a public toilet, on a case by case basis, when the Supreme Court has already ruled that this is not in line with the law and unworkable.", you've overlooked the following points
    • The Supreme Court did not make single-sex spaces compulsory, they made them possible: the owner of the space can make a space a single-sex space, not must do so.
    • The "case-by-case" applies to the owner of the space, not to the users of it. If one company wants to make its kitchen a single-sex space then it can, provided it uses The Words[1]. But if another company doesn't want to make its kitchen a single-sex space then it doesn't have to, unless existing law says it must.
    • The Supreme Court ruling applies only to Equality Act matters, and toilets don't come under the Equality Act. The Supreme Court did mention toilets[2] but that doesn't override the scope of the ruling. I figure the SC was winking at the audience here.
    Notes
    • [1] "provided it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim"
    • [2] Using the euphemism "facilities2 or "sanitary facilities", which I found obfuscatory: this is not the 19th century.
  • OT just got an emergency notification test on my mobile.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    edited November 17
    AnneJGP said:

    I can only imagine that those who would prefer the law to be other than what the SC have declared it to be, are hoping that everyone else will just get bored and give up. It would be much more sensible to put their efforts into changing the actual law through parliament.

    I refer you to my prestated position that the rights, duties, treatment and obligations of trans people is a moral problem that has to be settled via the political process via Parliament, not a legal problem to be settled by judges and definitely not a quango problem to be settled by a quango. Parliament needs to rule on this.
  • The Government publish their new asylum plans in full and a lot of sense in there

    Yvette Cooper would never have been so brave, but Mahmood 'gets it' though some of her mps will be furious

    However, Badenoch has pledged support so looks as if the rebels will not be able to derail it

    The ECHR though is a different matter
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,784
    edited November 17

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
  • IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    I think we're discussing the rule of law.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,999
    Part 1 of 3:

    I would urge those with an interest in these matters to read the following as companion pieces to Cyclefree's writing on the subject.

    1. The argument put forward by the government's lawyers on behalf of Bridget Phillipson at the judicial review of the EHCR's draft guidance:

    http://goodlawproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/MWE-Skeleton-REDACTED.pdf

    2. The following article written by the civil servant who is described by the Guardian as having played a key role in the drafting of the 2010 Equality act:

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/does-equality-act-ban-trans-women-from-womens-services-melanie-field-od1ee/

    Cyclefree will have read the above already and will doubtless disagree with them, but I provide the links for general consumption.

    I have already shared Ian Dunt's coverage of the EHCR's attempt to railroad the government into enacting its guidance in law, as well as the Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights' intervention, those can be found here:

    https://iandunt.substack.com/p/frightened-and-desperate-ehrc-anti
    https://rm.coe.int/letter-to-parliament-and-house-of-commons-of-te-united-kingdom-by-mich/488028ddd7

    The argument put forward by the government's lawyers is interesting in the context of the Commissioner's letter, reminding the UK of its obligations under the Human Rights Act and past judgements including Goodwin vs UK.

    The government is essentially arguing in (1) above, as I did in the last trans thread, that while the FWS judgement allows discrimination on the basis of birth sex, it does not mandate it, and such exclusions should be necessary and proportionate. This is also Lord Sumption's opinion on the FWS verdict - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-sumption-trans-biolgical-woman-supreme-court-b2735828.html

    I would remind the room that the FWS case was not about toilets, it was about whether trans women could be excluded from affirmative action in the form of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018. The decision essentially boiled down to the law being badly worded, and the court's judgement that interpreting "sex" as "certificated sex" would lead to "unworkable, impractical, anomalous or illogical results".

    ...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,259

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    I don’t disagree. But let’s avoid our political forum - with its wide global insight - going down the same narrow-minded obsessive rabbit hole as too many others.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,999
    Part 2 of 3:

    Unworkable, impractical, anomalous and illogical is also what you get in the form of the rushed EHCR draft guidance which mandates trans exclusionary single sex spaces - for example it would force muscly, bearded, fully transitioned trans men (everyone forgets about them!) into the ladies, or, even more bizarrely, being unable to pee at all on the basis they no longer look female enough despite, legally speaking, being one.

    The government has weighed in with the argument in (1) above, where it points out that there are already plenty of common sense exceptions to single sex spaces, a parent taking their kid to the loo, a female masseuse being willing to see a specific male client they trust while being able to turn away others. This is effectively to refute the EHCR's argument that if you allow a trans woman into a female only space, you MUST also allow a man in, a ridiculous situation that would mean, say, a lesbian hiking group would be forced to accept cis men to join them if they decided to accept trans women. An utterly nonsensical position that would effectively force trans people out of public life (in glaring breach of their human rights) as well as creating a 'papers please' society where we'd all have to present our birth certificates before using the bogs.

    I would note from (2) that it is clear the intent of the 2010 Equality Act was not to create apartheid or jim crow-esque laws segregating trans people from the rest of society, indeed, this would be in breach of the UK's responsibilities under the Human Rights Act and previous ECtHR judgements.

    All of which, sadly, leaves us in a right old muddle, with different bits of different law contradicting each other. The government's intervention in the judicial review against the EHCR should thusly be viewed in that context.

    It is arguable that this is the wrong way of clarifying it - the government should step in and say, no, we are clarifying the law to mean the following in regard to trans people, through primary legislation. Instead, they are attempting to clarify through the courts because they want to be seen to be able to distance themselves from the clarification.

    However, stripping away all the legal arguments, the judgements, the hundreds of pages of reading you have to do just to stay on top of all of this, I will simply say the following:

    ...
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,999
    Part 3 of 3:

    Common sense needs to prevail here.

    The gender critical movement should take the ability - in fact, the right - to discriminate against trans people (usually trans women, everyone forgets the trans men!) for the huge win that it is. It means that, for example, Cyclefree is perfectly within her rights to set up a women's only book club that excludes trans women. Or the Boxing Board of Control is allowed to exclude trans women from female fights. However, it's also about common sense: the necessary and proportionate test of any exclusionary practice means that trans women would be free to pee in peace, or to join a women's only dance class at their local gym, where the gym is happy to have them. The EHCR guidance is the opposite of that - creating a mandatory jim-crow-esque segregation that essentially locks trans people out of public life.

    The government's intervention should be viewed in this context. An attempt to restore some sanity to the debate with the inclusion of a necessary and proportionate test to trans exclusion, rather than a blanket ban. They know very well that this is what will happen anyway when it reaches the European Court of Human Rights, so are attempting to clarify this, now. Whether they should be using the courts to do so, or enacting properly written primary legislation to clarify the situation is another matter entirely.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,112
    "But it begs the question as to what the government understands the Supreme Court ruling to mean."

    I think you need to look up "begs the question" in a law dictionary.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,588
    edited November 17
    kyf_100 said:

    Part 3 of 3:

    Common sense needs to prevail here.

    The gender critical movement should take the ability - in fact, the right - to discriminate against trans people (usually trans women, everyone forgets the trans men!) for the huge win that it is. It means that, for example, Cyclefree is perfectly within her rights to set up a women's only book club that excludes trans women. Or the Boxing Board of Control is allowed to exclude trans women from female fights. However, it's also about common sense: the necessary and proportionate test of any exclusionary practice means that trans women would be free to pee in peace, or to join a women's only dance class at their local gym, where the gym is happy to have them. The EHCR guidance is the opposite of that - creating a mandatory jim-crow-esque segregation that essentially locks trans people out of public life.

    The government's intervention should be viewed in this context. An attempt to restore some sanity to the debate with the inclusion of a necessary and proportionate test to trans exclusion, rather than a blanket ban. They know very well that this is what will happen anyway when it reaches the European Court of Human Rights, so are attempting to clarify this, now. Whether they should be using the courts to do so, or enacting properly written primary legislation to clarify the situation is another matter entirely.

    Ensuring that women's-only facilities are for women-only does not lock anyone out of public life, it means that they can use sex-neutral facilities.

    If an owner wants to allow women and men (which includes men who identify as women) in their facilities then of course they are allowed to do so. That means that any safeguarding laws regarding being sex-neutral must be met, which includes for instance that toilets need to be self-contained units including wash basin behind a lock and not communal.

    What they can't do is advertise as women only and allow men in, in flagrant violation of safeguarding regulations for single-sex facilities, and without meeting single-sex regulations.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,231

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,320
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    So, Gaza.

    Just kidding. I am midway through the supreme court judgement and it is super interesting reading. If you like that sort of thing.

    Gaza debate, followed by trans. Its party day on PB!

    Can I just state that I think Brexit was an excellent idea?
    Poor old Trump, he’s lost out on the PB race to be the most talked about subject today !!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    viewcode said:

    (Godsdammit Cyclefree, you're lapping me. I'm going to have to accelerate my article)

    OK, to answer your question "Why, for instance, is counsel stating that transwomen i.e. men who identify as women should be allowed into a female only space, such as a public toilet, on a case by case basis, when the Supreme Court has already ruled that this is not in line with the law and unworkable.", you've overlooked the following points

    • The Supreme Court did not make single-sex spaces compulsory, they made them possible: the owner of the space can make a space a single-sex space, not must do so.
    While that its true, the recent revision to UK building regulations (no doubt we can have a separate argument about this, and I regard that bit of regulation as a deeply flawed, and massively over-prescriptive in several respects) absolutely do require mandatory, gender-specific toilets in most non-domestic buildings.

    Building owners are 'generously' allowed to provide non-gender specific provision in addition (IOW, the great majority won't).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    To resolve this would require some kind of card to indicate that the person has had their penis removed and has been hormornally altered to a sufficient degree. Since the GRC cannot be used for this purpose, it would require another card (a SRC?) which must be produced upon demand. Legislation to introduce this would solve a lot of problems.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,588
    edited November 17
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    (Godsdammit Cyclefree, you're lapping me. I'm going to have to accelerate my article)

    OK, to answer your question "Why, for instance, is counsel stating that transwomen i.e. men who identify as women should be allowed into a female only space, such as a public toilet, on a case by case basis, when the Supreme Court has already ruled that this is not in line with the law and unworkable.", you've overlooked the following points

    • The Supreme Court did not make single-sex spaces compulsory, they made them possible: the owner of the space can make a space a single-sex space, not must do so.
    While that its true, the recent revision to UK building regulations (no doubt we can have a separate argument about this, and I regard that bit of regulation as a deeply flawed, and massively over-prescriptive in several respects) absolutely do require mandatory, gender-specific toilets in most non-domestic buildings.

    Building owners are 'generously' allowed to provide non-gender specific provision in addition (IOW, the great majority won't).
    Almost all new non-domestic buildings in my experience absolutely do include non-sex-specific facilities, which tend to dual purpose as disabled and/or family changing rooms too.

    Key thing is though that they meet the regulation that the facilities have to be lockable, including wash basin. Unlike communal single-sex facilities.

    It makes sense from the owners perspective to tick all those boxes at once.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    boulay said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    To resolve this would require some kind of card to indicate that the person has had their penis removed and has been hormornally altered to a sufficient degree. Since the GRC cannot be used for this purpose, it would require another card (a SRC?) which must be produced upon demand. Legislation to introduce this would solve a lot of problems.
    Will this card have to be displayed on a lanyard?
    I hate you :):):):)
  • Looks like the Franco-German FCAS fighter programme is on the verge of collapse:

    https://www.ft.com/content/e0cc4893-d1c3-45a4-9e3e-d35cedd4b46d
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,819
    FWIW my take on the new asylum seeker/migration proposals is that it won't have much effect, if any, on the small boats. Those arriving in that way will neither be immediately sent elsewhere (France, Rwanda etc) in the great majority of cases, neither will they lose their right to be deported only by a lawful process which can be challenged. There is enough hope for people to continue to take their chance.

    The only effective things, apart from a change in fashion for a UK destination, is for the government to fulfil its promise to stop the boats, and smash the gangs (how is that getting on by the way?), and/or for virtually 100% of boat etc arrivals to end up elsewhere and a long way away very rapidly. The other effective thing would be to move away from the rule of law, which is where, I suspect, Reform might end up.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,282
    kyf_100 said:

    Part 1 of 3:

    I would urge those with an interest in these matters to read the following as companion pieces to Cyclefree's writing on the subject.

    1. The argument put forward by the government's lawyers on behalf of Bridget Phillipson at the judicial review of the EHCR's draft guidance:

    http://goodlawproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/MWE-Skeleton-REDACTED.pdf

    2. The following article written by the civil servant who is described by the Guardian as having played a key role in the drafting of the 2010 Equality act:

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/does-equality-act-ban-trans-women-from-womens-services-melanie-field-od1ee/

    Cyclefree will have read the above already and will doubtless disagree with them, but I provide the links for general consumption.

    I have already shared Ian Dunt's coverage of the EHCR's attempt to railroad the government into enacting its guidance in law, as well as the Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights' intervention, those can be found here:

    https://iandunt.substack.com/p/frightened-and-desperate-ehrc-anti
    https://rm.coe.int/letter-to-parliament-and-house-of-commons-of-te-united-kingdom-by-mich/488028ddd7

    The argument put forward by the government's lawyers is interesting in the context of the Commissioner's letter, reminding the UK of its obligations under the Human Rights Act and past judgements including Goodwin vs UK.

    The government is essentially arguing in (1) above, as I did in the last trans thread, that while the FWS judgement allows discrimination on the basis of birth sex, it does not mandate it, and such exclusions should be necessary and proportionate. This is also Lord Sumption's opinion on the FWS verdict - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-sumption-trans-biolgical-woman-supreme-court-b2735828.html

    I would remind the room that the FWS case was not about toilets, it was about whether trans women could be excluded from affirmative action in the form of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018. The decision essentially boiled down to the law being badly worded, and the court's judgement that interpreting "sex" as "certificated sex" would lead to "unworkable, impractical, anomalous or illogical results".

    ...

    Regardless, no-one with bollox should eb in a women only space/place. If they are sand tackle then not so much an issue but they are still a man. Simple.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783

    Looks like the Franco-German FCAS fighter programme is on the verge of collapse:

    https://www.ft.com/content/e0cc4893-d1c3-45a4-9e3e-d35cedd4b46d

    There's a surprise. :)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,819
    Chris said:

    "But it begs the question as to what the government understands the Supreme Court ruling to mean."

    I think you need to look up "begs the question" in a law dictionary.

    It's an odd expression, as its meaning in the history of logic (assumes the conclusion) bears little relation to the sense of the words, and the often wrongly attributed meaning (invites the question) arises very obviously from the words.
  • Nigelb said:

    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974

    My Grandfather (who sadly died of cancer in 1975) experienced this first hand 3 times. Once in the ATlantic and twice in the Med. He was also on the Arctic convoys but thankfully didn't end up in the water on those trips.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,566
    boulay said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    To resolve this would require some kind of card to indicate that the person has had their penis removed and has been hormornally altered to a sufficient degree. Since the GRC cannot be used for this purpose, it would require another card (a SRC?) which must be produced upon demand. Legislation to introduce this would solve a lot of problems.
    Will this card have to be displayed on a lanyard?
    Obviously, it can be implemented as part of Digital ID.

    An injected chip, programmed with the details of the individual, will detect if the individual is attempting to pass though a forbidden entrance.

    This will fire the micro-explosive charges implanted in all citizens that severe the main arteries. It will also contact the police, and organ banks for disposal of the remains.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    "Long Covid" update...
    This thread suggests that Covid is not at all like ordinary coronavirus, or flu, or rhinovirus infection; it's more typical of viruses like EBV etc (which as we discussed recently, seem to be implicated in all manner of other conditions).

    New data shows that 3-4 years after infection, people still carry highly cytotoxic spike-specific CD4+ T cells - the kind of long-lasting elite clones usually seen in persistent infections like CMV or HIV🧵
    https://x.com/ZdenekVrozina/status/1990177727455039662
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,021
    edited November 17
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,019

    Re the header, what is the problem? If the Supreme Court judgment was as claimed, then this case will not change anything aside from the enrichment of a few lawyers.

    Or is the problem that the Supreme Court judgment was not quite clear-cut?

    The problem is that the law is only the law if people follow the law. If the government of the day say that they accept the Supreme Court judgement on the law, but in practice do not follow it, then there's a bit of a problem in terms of maintaining the rule of law.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,566

    Nigelb said:

    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974

    My Grandfather (who sadly died of cancer in 1975) experienced this first hand 3 times. Once in the ATlantic and twice in the Med. He was also on the Arctic convoys but thankfully didn't end up in the water on those trips.
    The attack in the video is a torpedo in keel-breaker mode.

    Which is where the torpedo is detonated considerably below the ship, rather than in contact. This cause the ship to whip up and down - often breaking completely half - due to the cyclic collapse and re-expansion of the gas bubble.

    Something similar was the mining of HMS Belfast in WWII - it was a bottom mine, so it produced the effect.
  • IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    It is all a bit strange. When I went to have my bits looked at, after I was uncovered, the clinician gave me a paper towel to hold in front of my gentleman's sausage, so I can only imagine that at some point, someone who is paid actual money to look at genitals for a living must have complained about being flashed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    kyf_100 said:

    Part 3 of 3:

    Common sense needs to prevail here.

    The gender critical movement should take the ability - in fact, the right - to discriminate against trans people (usually trans women, everyone forgets the trans men!) for the huge win that it is. It means that, for example, Cyclefree is perfectly within her rights to set up a women's only book club that excludes trans women. Or the Boxing Board of Control is allowed to exclude trans women from female fights. However, it's also about common sense: the necessary and proportionate test of any exclusionary practice means that trans women would be free to pee in peace, or to join a women's only dance class at their local gym, where the gym is happy to have them. The EHCR guidance is the opposite of that - creating a mandatory jim-crow-esque segregation that essentially locks trans people out of public life.

    The government's intervention should be viewed in this context. An attempt to restore some sanity to the debate with the inclusion of a necessary and proportionate test to trans exclusion, rather than a blanket ban. They know very well that this is what will happen anyway when it reaches the European Court of Human Rights, so are attempting to clarify this, now. Whether they should be using the courts to do so, or enacting properly written primary legislation to clarify the situation is another matter entirely.

    A legally simple solution might be to make more general the existing workplace discrimination provisions of the Equality Act, referred to in the judgment ?
    ..260. Consequently, transgender people (irrespective of whether they have a GRC) are
    protected by the indirect discrimination provisions of the EA 2010 without the need for a
    certificated sex reading of the EA 2010, both in respect of any particular disadvantage
    suffered by them as a group sharing the characteristic of gender reassignment
    and, where
    members of the sex with which they identify are put at a particular disadvantage, insofar
    as they are also put at that disadvantage. Again, this does not entail any practical
    disadvantage or involve any discordance between the claim and the individual’s position
    in society. On the contrary, the claim will be founded on the facts of a particular shared
    disadvantage. Transgender people are also protected from indirect discrimination where
    they are put at a particular disadvantage which they share with members of their biological
    sex..
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,481
    "Sir Keir Starmer has said that the current asylum system created a “severe strain” on the UK’s wider social contract."

    How long has the current system been in operation for?

    It would be interesting to know for just how long this "severe strain" has been going on for.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    algarkirk said:

    Chris said:

    "But it begs the question as to what the government understands the Supreme Court ruling to mean."

    I think you need to look up "begs the question" in a law dictionary.

    It's an odd expression, as its meaning in the history of logic (assumes the conclusion) bears little relation to the sense of the words, and the often wrongly attributed meaning (invites the question) arises very obviously from the words.
    Which makes "invites the question" a better alternative.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,499
    edited November 17

    Nigelb said:

    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974

    My Grandfather (who sadly died of cancer in 1975) experienced this first hand 3 times. Once in the ATlantic and twice in the Med. He was also on the Arctic convoys but thankfully didn't end up in the water on those trips.
    The attack in the video is a torpedo in keel-breaker mode.

    Which is where the torpedo is detonated considerably below the ship, rather than in contact. This cause the ship to whip up and down - often breaking completely half - due to the cyclic collapse and re-expansion of the gas bubble.

    Something similar was the mining of HMS Belfast in WWII - it was a bottom mine, so it produced the effect.
    There is still a visible repair in parts of the Belfast - I almost said kink but I may be imagining this as it was some time ago I visited. Was out of action for a long time till they drummed up the labour to mend it.

    Interesting to see in the video how the vertical whiplash threw deck cargo (in this case, an obviously mocked up demo heap of containers) around. And I wonder about the ankles of anyone standing upright.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,013
    edited November 17
    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?
  • Regarding loo use, I always use the Laddies' toilet :lol::lol::lol:
  • kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    If you're XY, you're a guy :sunglasses:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,259
    The new assylum policy being announced in the HoC now
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,378
    I would like to thank @kyf_100 and @viewcode for their very interesting contributions on trans.

    I don't think I'd ever say that about the trans debate, but I mean it.

    It is also very clear that this is an area where the government needs to only do things via well drafted legislation, rather than via the courts.

    There is also the question of how much we want the government (and the courts) to be allowed to force private businesses and individuals. My gut instinct is, as always, that government coercian should be kept to a minimum. But I also accept that carries with it certain risks and issues.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,378

    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    If you're XY, you're a guy :sunglasses:
    Even post-op?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,013

    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    If you're XY, you're a guy :sunglasses:
    It doesn't say that at John Lewis.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,877
    Nigelb said:

    "Long Covid" update...
    This thread suggests that Covid is not at all like ordinary coronavirus, or flu, or rhinovirus infection; it's more typical of viruses like EBV etc (which as we discussed recently, seem to be implicated in all manner of other conditions).

    New data shows that 3-4 years after infection, people still carry highly cytotoxic spike-specific CD4+ T cells - the kind of long-lasting elite clones usually seen in persistent infections like CMV or HIV🧵
    https://x.com/ZdenekVrozina/status/1990177727455039662

    As I said the other night, this is genuinely fascinating. It is easy to believe that these viruses will give us insight into a wholly new form of medicine that will transform our understanding of and treatment of a range of diseases that used to perplex us. I do not think for a moment that this path will be straightforward or simple but we have an opening here that has not been seen in my lifetime.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    edited November 17
    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    From my still-unfinished article

    The SC judgement[3] does not use the words “toilet” or “restroom”, but does use the words “facilities” twice. Firstly in a discussion of the Sex Discrimination Act, secondly in a discussion of communal accommodation in the EA. In both cases the restriction of toilets to biological sex users is emphasised. Gender-critical lawyers (insert source here) insist that this means that the judgement applies to toilets, trans lawyers insist that case law has already dealt with this (insert source here).

    The EHRC interim guidance contains the following passages[2]
    • "...13.3.11 A service provider operates a shopping centre and decides to renovate the centre. It initially intends to only provide separate-sex toilets to improve the safety and comfort of users. This disadvantages trans people because it means that a trans person cannot access a toilet catered towards their acquired gender. The service provider therefore decides to also provide toilets in individual lockable rooms which can be used by people of either sex..."
    • "...13.3.12 A community group is opening a small advice centre. It decides to provide separate-sex toilets for women and men, and it repurposes the accessible toilet to be used as a mixed-sex toilet for anybody who does not wish to use the toilet for their biological sex..."
    • "...13.5.5 For example, a trans man might be excluded from the women-only service if the service provider decides..."[1]
    So John Lewis would have to change from this "Men, Women, Disabled" to "Men, Women, Gender-Neutral" or in extremis "Men, Women, Disabled, Gender-Neutral".

    Notes
  • kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    John Lewis should hang a new sign – Stuff the Disabled; Anyone's Welcome. It is ironic that trans and terf activists are so ableist. In the old days you could unobtrusively tell men from women by whether they took a newspaper to read in the cubicle but it's all Smartphones now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,013
    edited November 17
    Viewcode, thank you. Follow up Q: If a trans person doesn't use the gender neutral WC facilities but instead those for the opposite (birth) sex are they committing a criminal offence?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,588
    edited November 17
    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    The disabled ones are sex neutral. Those who do not identify as their sex can use them.

    Problem solved. Not rocket science.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,182
    edited November 17
    Some of the comments on here remind me of the bad old days, when homophobia was a thing, and stupid hetero men didn't want gay men in the changing rooms because they felt threatened.
    In reality, of course, the last men that the gay men would be interested in was the chaps who thought that gay men couldn't control their urges in the presence of non-gay men.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,807

    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    John Lewis should hang a new sign – Stuff the Disabled; Anyone's Welcome. It is ironic that trans and terf activists are so ableist. In the old days you could unobtrusively tell men from women by whether they took a newspaper to read in the cubicle but it's all Smartphones now.
    I think ultimately there needs to be a target date set, maybe ten years, for all public places to have individual traps rather than male/female facilities.

    Most of the bars and restaurants I go to which have been refurbished over the last few years seem to be going for this with private individual cubicles with a sink inside or communal sinks serving all of the cubicles.

    It’s an expensive refurb/rebuild hence my suggestion for a grace period - most of the buildings in use as shops/restaurants/bars etc will have to reorganise their space at expense and disruption hence time to prepare and save.

    There might have to be carve-outs for listed buildings where there can’t be a sensible reconfiguration but I don’t think that will be a huge percentage.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    kinabalu said:

    Viewcode, thank you. Follow up Q: If a trans person doesn't use the gender neutral WC facilities but instead those for the opposite (birth) sex are they committing a criminal offence?

    This is beyond my competence, unfortunately. If the EHRC guidance is transposed into law then it will have the force of law, but whether that is a criminal offence or a civil offence, and the method of redress, is not known to me. Cyclefree is probably the best one to ask.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,783
    rcs1000 said:

    I would like to thank @kyf_100 and @viewcode for their very interesting contributions on trans.

    I don't think I'd ever say that about the trans debate, but I mean it.

    It is also very clear that this is an area where the government needs to only do things via well drafted legislation, rather than via the courts.

    There is also the question of how much we want the government (and the courts) to be allowed to force private businesses and individuals. My gut instinct is, as always, that government coercian should be kept to a minimum. But I also accept that carries with it certain risks and issues.

    Thank you sir: most kind.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,566
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974

    My Grandfather (who sadly died of cancer in 1975) experienced this first hand 3 times. Once in the ATlantic and twice in the Med. He was also on the Arctic convoys but thankfully didn't end up in the water on those trips.
    The attack in the video is a torpedo in keel-breaker mode.

    Which is where the torpedo is detonated considerably below the ship, rather than in contact. This cause the ship to whip up and down - often breaking completely half - due to the cyclic collapse and re-expansion of the gas bubble.

    Something similar was the mining of HMS Belfast in WWII - it was a bottom mine, so it produced the effect.
    There is still a visible repair in parts of the Belfast - I almost said kink but I may be imagining this as it was some time ago I visited. Was out of action for a long time till they drummed up the labour to mend it.

    Interesting to see in the video how the vertical whiplash threw deck cargo (in this case, an obviously mocked up demo heap of containers) around. And I wonder about the ankles of anyone standing upright.
    Broken legs were common from this effect.

    Some were thrown into the deck above, hard enough to *kill*.

    Another effect is to smash everything vaguely fragile - with Belfast a lot of cast metal fittings in the fuel system fractured, IIRC.
  • rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    There are also bad faith people on the other side too, @turbotubbs.

    My view is that you should -as much as possible- treat people as they wish to be treated, or not demonise other groups for having different views to us. If a friend of mine wished to identify as 'they' or 'she', I would obviously accede to their wishes and would hope other people would do, irrespective of their personal beliefs, because that is common human courtesy.

    All too often people on the gender critical side of the debate drop into outright rudeness. Sure, you may believe that only biological sex exists, but that doesn't give you the right to be a dick (so to speak). I don't believe in God, but I wouldn't think for a moment about ridiculing another person't belief system.
    Unfortunately, calling these the Trans Wars points to some grim realities.

    As in territorial wars, peaceable sharing of territory is rarely possible. Any space occupied by X cannot also be occupied by not-X. Unless a sufficient number are willing to say "it doesn't matter that much", the stable solution is ideological cleansing.

    And there's an awful lot of identity tied up with all this, which is always hard to work round because none of us are good at changing our self-understanding.

    I wish it weren't like that, but it is. And culture wars tend to only fade away one funeral at a time.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,615
    edited November 17
    Off topic, but this may amuse many of you. The WaPo is unimpressed by Seattle's mayor-elect:
    Katie Wilson, an activist with even less experience than New York’s Zohran Mamdani, narrowly defeated the incumbent mayor of Seattle earlier this month. The 43-year-old community organizer, a first-time candidate with no meaningful management experience, will soon lead a city of around 800,000 residents with nearly 14,000 municipal employees and an $8.9 billion budget.

    Who is Wilson? She does not own a car. She lives in a rented 600-square-foot apartment with her husband and two-year-old daughter. By her own account, she depends on checks from her parents back east to cover expenses. To let them off the hook, she seeks to force residents of Seattle to pay for “free” child care and other goodies.
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/11/16/seattle-socialist-mayor-katie-wilson-mamdani/

    (I don't know what to make of her Oxford experience: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Wilson )

    Like me, the editorial writers see her election as bad for Seattle -- but good for the US as a whole, since they expect it to demonstrate, quickly, socialism's failures. (Wilson, unlike Mamdani in New York, will have a city council controlled by allies.)

    For my part, I plan to ask three suburban governments (Bellevue, Redmond, and Kirkland) to prepare for refugees from Seattle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,013

    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    The disabled ones are sex neutral. Those who do not identify as their sex can use them.

    Problem solved. Not rocket science.
    I'm not really asking whether it's a problem. I'm just wondering what has changed (in this example) due to the SC ruling.

    Eg is it that you now commit an offence if you use the 'wrong' toilets? Or is it this was always an offence but now it has to be policed and enforced?

    I genuinely don't know, do you?
  • Eabhal said:

    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    The disabled ones are sex neutral. Those who do not identify as their sex can use them.

    Problem solved. Not rocket science.
    I think this is the worst "solution" to come out of the Trans debate. We have disabled toilets for a reason.
    It's Do It To Julia. Solve a practical resource dispute between A and B by taking from C. It is a horrible thing, which is why we do it all the damn time.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,877
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    There are also bad faith people on the other side too, @turbotubbs.

    My view is that you should -as much as possible- treat people as they wish to be treated, or not demonise other groups for having different views to us. If a friend of mine wished to identify as 'they' or 'she', I would obviously accede to their wishes and would hope other people would do, irrespective of their personal beliefs, because that is common human courtesy.

    All too often people on the gender critical side of the debate drop into outright rudeness. Sure, you may believe that only biological sex exists, but that doesn't give you the right to be a dick (so to speak). I don't believe in God, but I wouldn't think for a moment about ridiculing another person't belief system.
    This.

    But we also need to protect the vulnerable from the predatory. And there are more predators around than you would like to think.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,788
    kinabalu said:

    Forgive the foray into toilet use which I know gets rather too much attention sometimes but what does 'implementing the law' look like at, say, John Lewis? They have three types, signed Men, Women, Disabled. There is no additional wording relating to transgender and no policing on the door of what people's birth sex (or disability) is as they enter whichever one they decide is right for them. What (if anything) do JL need to change as a consequence of the Supreme Court clarifying what 'sex' in the Equality Act means? Do we know?

    Interesting, also do you think this should be a number one or number two priority?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,573
    edited November 17
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    With so much real politics going on, in both UK and US (and myriad countries inside the EU), and we’re discussing trans women, again?

    Some people have a demented obsession with punishing already marginalised members of society.
    Its not about that, FFS. Its about preventing men, who have had no surgery, no hormone treatment, claiming to be a woman, changing in a single sex space and allegedly asking women in that space why that aren't getting changed in front of him.

    You may think it punishing trans people, but its actually about protecting the rights of half the species.
    Yes but what about the ones who have had the surgery and the hormone treatment? The world is not binary and never has been. That is why athletics has for decades tested hormone levels, not cervixes. This is partly why the whole area is a mess.

    As an aside, A Boy Named Mary has just lost the 4.10 race at Newcastle. It always pays to follow Cyclefree's tips in Safer Gambling Week! Boy Named Sioux runs in the 4.40.
    The area is a mess because of the bad faith trans actors. There is an interesting theory about the rise of trans and social contagion.

    As I understand it no cases have been brought against men who have had surgery and are actively on hormone treatment. Its always when men maskerade as women that causes issues.

    As a rule lots of people who will happily disrobe in front of members of their own sex, do not like to do so in front of the opposite sex. A few months ago at my son's swimming one of the dads met a woman that he clearly knew, and for some unknown reason she came into the men's changing room for a chat. So the other six dads very carefully dried bits off, or chatted, or did anything else but drop our swimming trunks to get our tackle out. (She eventually realised).

    Why should women have a man with a penis in tatty boxer shorts in their changing rooms simply because he says he is trans?
    There are also bad faith people on the other side too, @turbotubbs.

    My view is that you should -as much as possible- treat people as they wish to be treated, or not demonise other groups for having different views to us. If a friend of mine wished to identify as 'they' or 'she', I would obviously accede to their wishes and would hope other people would do, irrespective of their personal beliefs, because that is common human courtesy.

    All too often people on the gender critical side of the debate drop into outright rudeness. Sure, you may believe that only biological sex exists, but that doesn't give you the right to be a dick (so to speak). I don't believe in God, but I wouldn't think for a moment about ridiculing another person't belief system.
    This.

    But we also need to protect the vulnerable from the predatory. And there are more predators around than you would like to think.
    I don't want them in the Men's toilets either tbh. I've been sexually assaulted by a man (nothing too bad and he was promptly hauled out by a bouncer), my gay friends have had some awful experiences.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,925
    IanB2 said:

    The new assylum policy being announced in the HoC now

    LibDem spokesman just had a new one torn for him.
  • Some of the comments on here remind me of the bad old days, when homophobia was a thing, and stupid hetero men didn't want gay men in the changing rooms because they felt threatened.
    In reality, of course, the last men that the gay men would be interested in was the chaps who thought that gay men couldn't control their urges in the presence of non-gay men.

    "Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying."
  • Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ever wondered what it's like to be on a ship which gets torpedoed ?

    Wonder no more.
    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1990381848565071974

    My Grandfather (who sadly died of cancer in 1975) experienced this first hand 3 times. Once in the ATlantic and twice in the Med. He was also on the Arctic convoys but thankfully didn't end up in the water on those trips.
    The attack in the video is a torpedo in keel-breaker mode.

    Which is where the torpedo is detonated considerably below the ship, rather than in contact. This cause the ship to whip up and down - often breaking completely half - due to the cyclic collapse and re-expansion of the gas bubble.

    Something similar was the mining of HMS Belfast in WWII - it was a bottom mine, so it produced the effect.
    There is still a visible repair in parts of the Belfast - I almost said kink but I may be imagining this as it was some time ago I visited. Was out of action for a long time till they drummed up the labour to mend it.

    Interesting to see in the video how the vertical whiplash threw deck cargo (in this case, an obviously mocked up demo heap of containers) around. And I wonder about the ankles of anyone standing upright.
    Broken legs were common from this effect.

    Some were thrown into the deck above, hard enough to *kill*.

    Another effect is to smash everything vaguely fragile - with Belfast a lot of cast metal fittings in the fuel system fractured, IIRC.
    Apparently, at the start of the war, British and German torpedos would typically miss or bounce off but of course, development cycles were rapid. Bernard alluded to this in Yes, Prime Minister, and so did President Trump when reacting to Russian sabre-rattling.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,925
    Wow. Speaker pulls up the Home Sec for swearing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    rcs1000 said:

    I would like to thank @kyf_100 and @viewcode for their very interesting contributions on trans.

    I don't think I'd ever say that about the trans debate, but I mean it.

    It is also very clear that this is an area where the government needs to only do things via well drafted legislation, rather than via the courts.

    There is also the question of how much we want the government (and the courts) to be allowed to force private businesses and individuals. My gut instinct is, as always, that government coercian should be kept to a minimum. But I also accept that carries with it certain risks and issues.

    I would probably agree with you there.

    But as far as buildings, and particularly toilet provision is concerned, the law (in the form of current building regulations) is already very coercive - while at the same time allowing for anti-trans discrimination.

    A worst of both worlds position, IMO.
  • Wow. Speaker pulls up the Home Sec for swearing.

    What did she say?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,410
    edited November 17
    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    Viewcode, thank you. Follow up Q: If a trans person doesn't use the gender neutral WC facilities but instead those for the opposite (birth) sex are they committing a criminal offence?

    This is beyond my competence, unfortunately. If the EHRC guidance is transposed into law then it will have the force of law, but whether that is a criminal offence or a civil offence, and the method of redress, is not known to me. Cyclefree is probably the best one to ask.
    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    Viewcode, thank you. Follow up Q: If a trans person doesn't use the gender neutral WC facilities but instead those for the opposite (birth) sex are they committing a criminal offence?

    This is beyond my competence, unfortunately. If the EHRC guidance is transposed into law then it will have the force of law, but whether that is a criminal offence or a civil offence, and the method of redress, is not known to me. Cyclefree is probably the best one to ask.
    Not automatically, and almost certainly not a criminal offence, unless other actions are involved.

    I don't think there's a simple answer to the civil law question, and it will also depend on the particular circumstances.

    (All IMO)
  • Polish PM says railway explosion was 'unprecedented act of sabotage'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp85g86x0zgo
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