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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,560
    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    AOC will run an electrifying election campaign.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,350
    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    There's a part of me that thinks it should be Bernie, but he might be too old now.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,709
    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    “ Pregnant women appeared in only 0.1 per cent of adverts, while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    By contrast, Black people remain significantly over-represented on screen. The study shows they featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 census.

    South Asian people appeared in 17 per cent of adverts, higher than the 8 per cent share of the population they represent, while East Asians were present in 11 per cent of campaigns, compared with 1 per cent of the public.

    Marcus Ryder, chief executive of the Film and TV Charity, said the imbalance shows the need for broader diversity among decision-makers in the industry.


    Not entirely sure how Mr Ryder concluded there need to be more diversity in advertising when the research shows minorities majorly over-represented.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,353

    isam said:
    Cummings?

    What happened to The Start Up Party??

    It didn't start.
    He should have seen that coming...
    I have spent the last hour working on a Vision Express quip, but you just aced it. Respect!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,773
    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,709
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    There's a part of me that thinks it should be Bernie, but he might be too old now.
    Bernie shot his bolt a long time ago.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,740
    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    There's a part of me that thinks it should be Bernie, but he might be too old now.
    Bernie shot his bolt a long time ago.
    Is that another startling allegation to do with antiques that do roadshows?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,773
    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,709
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    There's a part of me that thinks it should be Bernie, but he might be too old now.
    Bernie shot his bolt a long time ago.
    Is that another startling allegation to do with antiques that do roadshows?
    More to do with the Golden Shot. (My wife says I am giving away my age).
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,917
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:
    “But there was no energy, no ideas and he didn’t have any answers to our questions. It was really very damaging.”
    I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty to the moaning guest.

    It's the UK in a low growth era with maxed out public finances. What do they expect ... milk and honey and thundering herds of wildebeest?
    A plan isn't that much to ask....
    They don't need a plan. They need a sustained economic upswing.
    Even they must realise that repeatedly shafting the private sector and shovelling money at layabouts isn't the best way to get the economy working again?

    You'd think that about two hours in an undergraduate level economics course, or a week working in any private sector firm, would teach them that, but evidently that's beyond them.

    Still, why did anyone expect anything better from Labour?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,709

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:
    “But there was no energy, no ideas and he didn’t have any answers to our questions. It was really very damaging.”
    I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty to the moaning guest.

    It's the UK in a low growth era with maxed out public finances. What do they expect ... milk and honey and thundering herds of wildebeest?
    What's the difference between a thundering herd of wildebeest and a large group of lawyers?
    One will leave a real mess all over your carpet, and the other are wild animals from Africa?
    The former would never get around to sending a bill just for the cost of a single first class letter delivery.

    The latter happened to me with a lawyer.
    How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
    How many can you afford?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,740
    edited October 25
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:
    “But there was no energy, no ideas and he didn’t have any answers to our questions. It was really very damaging.”
    I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty to the moaning guest.

    It's the UK in a low growth era with maxed out public finances. What do they expect ... milk and honey and thundering herds of wildebeest?
    What's the difference between a thundering herd of wildebeest and a large group of lawyers?
    One will leave a real mess all over your carpet, and the other are wild animals from Africa?
    The former would never get around to sending a bill just for the cost of a single first class letter delivery.

    The latter happened to me with a lawyer.
    How many lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
    How many can you afford?
    Unless it's Womble Bond Dickinson, whose attitude to disclosure shows they like leaving people in the dark.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,330
    Eabhal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    Yes, that's my point. I don't think there is any advertising standard that means you have to include non-white people, so what you see on the telly just reflects what the advertiser thinks is the most likely to do best for them in sales.

    Pretty simple really. If some firm wants to have a whites only policy in their adverts then good luck to them - they'll need it because their target demographic is going to be typically older and poorer, which in my (limited) experience isn't exactly what you should be aiming for. We did used to put old white folk on adverts for binoculars and knee-length waterproofs, come to think of it...
    I think the theory is that older people are more set in they buying habits, so are a less promising target for advertisers. Same reason that there are loads of commercial radio stations targeting under fifties and relatively few going for older audiences.

    But yeah, the bottom line is that advertising can't afford to be sentimental. If more money could be made by having more white characters in adverts, that's what someone would do. What Pochin, Farage and the rest of them are really cross about is that they are getting old, and one of the consequences is that adverts are no longer aimed at them.

    There's no sane politics that solves that problem.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371
    boulay said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    "...while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
    That stat is quite dubious as not all disabilities are visible.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,511
    boulay said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    “ Pregnant women appeared in only 0.1 per cent of adverts, while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    By contrast, Black people remain significantly over-represented on screen. The study shows they featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 census.

    South Asian people appeared in 17 per cent of adverts, higher than the 8 per cent share of the population they represent, while East Asians were present in 11 per cent of campaigns, compared with 1 per cent of the public.

    Marcus Ryder, chief executive of the Film and TV Charity, said the imbalance shows the need for broader diversity among decision-makers in the industry.


    Not entirely sure how Mr Ryder concluded there need to be more diversity in advertising when the research shows minorities majorly over-represented.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
    Given that not all disabilities are visible, I'm not sure how we can decide only 4 percent appearing are disabled. Either the character or the actor.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,709
    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    “ Pregnant women appeared in only 0.1 per cent of adverts, while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    By contrast, Black people remain significantly over-represented on screen. The study shows they featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 census.

    South Asian people appeared in 17 per cent of adverts, higher than the 8 per cent share of the population they represent, while East Asians were present in 11 per cent of campaigns, compared with 1 per cent of the public.

    Marcus Ryder, chief executive of the Film and TV Charity, said the imbalance shows the need for broader diversity among decision-makers in the industry.


    Not entirely sure how Mr Ryder concluded there need to be more diversity in advertising when the research shows minorities majorly over-represented.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
    Given that not all disabilities are visible, I'm not sure how we can decide only 4 percent appearing are disabled. Either the character or the actor.
    No idea, I didn’t do the report, that was done by C4 and whoever they hired.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371
    Eabhal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    Yes, that's my point. I don't think there is any advertising standard that means you have to include non-white people, so what you see on the telly just reflects what the advertiser thinks is the most likely to do best for them in sales.

    Pretty simple really. If some firm wants to have a whites only policy in their adverts then good luck to them - they'll need it because their target demographic is going to be typically older and poorer, which in my (limited) experience isn't exactly what you should be aiming for. We did used to put old white folk on adverts for binoculars and knee-length waterproofs, come to think of it...
    But skin colour is mostly* incidental to the people in the adverts. I don't think young people are more likely to be swayed by seeing (more) non-white people. I think advertisers do it for the easy life and I don't blame them. The only issue with it is that it means aspiring actors from ethnic minorities (especially black) have more chances to earn a living (I'm not losing sleep over it, don't worry!).

    * I say mostly, black (rather than Asian) culture is quite prominent in culture and some adverts. Think Ikea have gone down that route with some of their adverts.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,524
    edited October 25
    Pochin needs to find a life or better still bugger off to the USA where she’ll have better access to Klan meetings !

    Are people really kept awake by how many black or Asian people appear in tv ads ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,773
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:
    “But there was no energy, no ideas and he didn’t have any answers to our questions. It was really very damaging.”
    I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty to the moaning guest.

    It's the UK in a low growth era with maxed out public finances. What do they expect ... milk and honey and thundering herds of wildebeest?
    A plan isn't that much to ask....
    They don't need a plan. They need a sustained economic upswing.
    Even they must realise that repeatedly shafting the private sector and shovelling money at layabouts isn't the best way to get the economy working again?

    You'd think that about two hours in an undergraduate level economics course, or a week working in any private sector firm, would teach them that, but evidently that's beyond them.

    Still, why did anyone expect anything better from Labour?
    Mmm if only your Thatcher re-tread ideas were implemented we'd be powering ahead of all our peers. Easy peasy. Wonder why it doesn't happen. Ship of fools.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310

    Eabhal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    Yes, that's my point. I don't think there is any advertising standard that means you have to include non-white people, so what you see on the telly just reflects what the advertiser thinks is the most likely to do best for them in sales.

    Pretty simple really. If some firm wants to have a whites only policy in their adverts then good luck to them - they'll need it because their target demographic is going to be typically older and poorer, which in my (limited) experience isn't exactly what you should be aiming for. We did used to put old white folk on adverts for binoculars and knee-length waterproofs, come to think of it...
    I think the theory is that older people are more set in they buying habits, so are a less promising target for advertisers. Same reason that there are loads of commercial radio stations targeting under fifties and relatively few going for older audiences.

    But yeah, the bottom line is that advertising can't afford to be sentimental. If more money could be made by having more white characters in adverts, that's what someone would do. What Pochin, Farage and the rest of them are really cross about is that they are getting old, and one of the consequences is that adverts are no longer aimed at them.

    There's no sane politics that solves that problem.
    And that's also the underlying reason why there are more non-white characters. It's that demographic whose incomes (and populations) are growing the fastest, and that cash is looking for a home.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,740
    edited October 25
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:
    “But there was no energy, no ideas and he didn’t have any answers to our questions. It was really very damaging.”
    I'm reminded of Basil Fawlty to the moaning guest.

    It's the UK in a low growth era with maxed out public finances. What do they expect ... milk and honey and thundering herds of wildebeest?
    A plan isn't that much to ask....
    They don't need a plan. They need a sustained economic upswing.
    Even they must realise that repeatedly shafting the private sector and shovelling money at layabouts isn't the best way to get the economy working again?

    You'd think that about two hours in an undergraduate level economics course, or a week working in any private sector firm, would teach them that, but evidently that's beyond them.

    Still, why did anyone expect anything better from Labour?
    That sounds like Trussism in a nutshell, actually.

    She shafted the private sector and hired a load of failed think tank operators at exorbitant salaries after all.

    And the only reason she didn't repeat it is she wasn't there long enough.
  • They always find white men for adverts about sex pests
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,353

    They always find white men for adverts about sex pests

    Wtf does that mean?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371

    They always find white men for adverts about sex pests

    Wtf does that mean?
    This sort of thing:

    https://x.com/DailyMirror/status/1980943209946550644
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This, of course, is another lie - they have no such immunity - but it is a very dangerous one.

    Stephen Miller on Fox threatens to arrest JB Pritzker for "seditious conspiracy" and says, "to all ICE officers: you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop or obstruct you is committing a felony."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1981816700627554547


    Does Kemi still see ICE as a model ?

    Don't they?

    In my recollection American Police have general immunity in the conduct of their duties, which is a major issue.

    I imagine ICE might have similar.
    I think they have qualified immunity, which means they cannot be individually sued by individuals for an act committed on duty.

    They do not have immunity from criminal prosecution if they break the law. Exhibit A - the officer who murdered George Floyd.

    So if an ICE unit take somebody who should not be taken, without the lawful authority of the state governor or a judge, I think they would still be up before a judge on a charge of kidnapping.
    Indeed, so they do have qualified immunity, so its not wrong to say they have immunity, albeit a qualified and not blanket one.

    I would prefer to see it repealed and abolished, but they do have it, unfortunately.
    It is wrong to say they have ‘federal immunity,’ which outside the fantasies of Trump’s Supreme Court regarding the office of the President is not a concept in American law.
    Qualified immunity is a federal law, underpinned by SCOTUS.
    No, it isn't.
    It's a doctrine introduced by the court in the 60s, and further expanded by them in the last couple of decades. There's no underlying statute.
    The US is a Common Law nation, like the UK. There does not need to be an underlying statute for it to be the law.

    Case law, as determined by the courts, means that it is the law. I wish it weren't, but it is.
    It's not based in common law either.
    It's a novel constitutional doctrine created from thin air.
    Its a determination of the court.

    The reasoning for the decision is moot, under the principle of the rule of law, it is the law, since the court said it is.

    I'd rather the decision be reversed, but unless or until it is, its the law.
  • PoodleInASlipstreamPoodleInASlipstream Posts: 543
    edited October 25
    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

  • They always find white men for adverts about sex pests

    Wtf does that mean?
    I'm somewhat amused that you either couldn't, or pretended that you couldn't, work this out on your own
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    I wrote on my blog about the inverse of this once; the fact that EastEnders hugely under represents the number of Asian and black people in the area it is supposed to represent. I believe it’s because people who don’t live or haven’t been to East London simply wouldn’t accept the real demographic as true if it were portrayed accurately
  • They always find white men for adverts about sex pests

    Wtf does that mean?
    I'm somewhat amused that you either couldn't, or pretended that you couldn't, work this out on your own
    I'm wondering about your cookies that you're being served adverts for buying sex pests.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,315
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
    Politicians don't seem to get that 'change' isn't for most the priority. Change is associated with the world in which Windows 10 is expensively transformed into Windows 11 and upgrades that make everything worse, and new time tables that don't run trains the times you want.

    Thye priority for the great majority is steady incremental general improvement in things but even more than that running ordinary stuff really well.
    I am sure there is a good Pratchett quote to that effect.
  • algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
    Politicians don't seem to get that 'change' isn't for most the priority. Change is associated with the world in which Windows 10 is expensively transformed into Windows 11 and upgrades that make everything worse, and new time tables that don't run trains the times you want.

    Thye priority for the great majority is steady incremental general improvement in things but even more than that running ordinary stuff really well.
    Why would you need new times tables?

    I memorised upto 12x12 when I was young and that has lasted me throughout.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,499
    Are tonight's fireworks late Diwali or early Guy Fawkes?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,310
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    Gaslighted preferably
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-something-greenlit-or-greenlighted/
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,241

    They always find white men for adverts about sex pests

    This needs a Charlie Brooker type "the week in shitverts" treatment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,740
    edited October 25
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
    Politicians don't seem to get that 'change' isn't for most the priority. Change is associated with the world in which Windows 10 is expensively transformed into Windows 11 and upgrades that make everything worse, and new time tables that don't run trains the times you want.

    Thye priority for the great majority is steady incremental general improvement in things but even more than that running ordinary stuff really well.
    I am sure there is a good Pratchett quote to that effect.
    'Under Lord Vetinari, for the first time in a thousand years, Ankh Morpork operated. It might not be particularly just or fair or democratic, but it all worked and you could be sure that tomorrow would come round and be much the same as today.

    Guards! guards!
  • Are tonight's fireworks late Diwali or early Guy Fawkes?

    Yes.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,310
    Q. How do you get young Conservative delinquents to move over to the Refukkers?
    A. Send them to a Reformatory
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,964
    Scott_xP said:
    Sadly, I don't think we've seen the last of the Fukkers .
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    edited October 25
    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,773
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    So you get worked up about too many non-white people in ads? Really?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,773
    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    Gaslighted preferably
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-something-greenlit-or-greenlighted/
    Quite like gaslit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,823

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858
    geoffw said:

    Q. How do you get young Conservative delinquents to move over to the Refukkers?
    A. Send them to a Reformatory

    A bunch of Reform people out campaigning in Warminster town centre this morning. Found it rather annoying, trying to stop myself asking them if they were all racists. Settled for ignoring the cnuts.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,310
    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    Gaslighted preferably
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-something-greenlit-or-greenlighted/
    Quite like gaslit.
    Ok you keep it

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858
    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,384
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:


    The Democrats are really searching for an answer for Trump at the moment. I'm not quite sure who that is, but what I do know is it's not Kamala Harris.

    I quite like Harris, and I think a lot of the criticism of her is rather overblown. She was, unquestionably, dealt a very bad hand and in 2024 she played it... broadly as well as she could have done, I think. But her big issue is her seeming inability to shift this incredibly tortured way of communicating. She looked at the start of the 2024 campaign like she was finally shaking it off, only to revert more and more to type as the election approached. She fired up Democrats, but it wasn't enough in an election where swing voters were feeling helpless and casting around for solutions - she couldn't speak to those people. I see nothing to suggest she's suddenly learned how to do so.

    To put it more simply - Harris is a B- politician at national level.

    What the Democrats need is A*
    Buttigieg is probably their best bet, though if the approval rating of the Trump and Vance administration remains under 40% still by 2028 even AOC could win
    There's a part of me that thinks it should be Bernie, but he might be too old now.
    In his prime as far as US presidentials go.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,105
    edited October 25

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    Poor from this Labour MP. The point is that our screens don’t reflect the diverse country we are, they contort it.

    Sad that Sarah finds it so uncomfortable to see black & Asian Brits on TV adverts. Our screens reflect the diverse country it is. Confident nations aren’t threatened by visibility. Leaders should bring people together, not stoke resentment over whatever Persil or M&S are selling.

    https://x.com/_callumanderson/status/1982112765264154904?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858
    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    Gaslighted preferably
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-something-greenlit-or-greenlighted/
    Quite like gaslit.
    When I was a young boy I used the phrase ‘dimly lit’. My family found it hilarious, as if it was somehow poor English. I have since seen it in many, many books. I bet even that old airport lounge hack, Sean Thomas Knox has used it.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    So you get worked up about too many non-white people in ads? Really?
    No, not really. The absurdity makes me laugh or roll my eyes, but I wouldn’t say I was worked up about it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,823
    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
    Politicians don't seem to get that 'change' isn't for most the priority. Change is associated with the world in which Windows 10 is expensively transformed into Windows 11 and upgrades that make everything worse, and new time tables that don't run trains the times you want.

    Thye priority for the great majority is steady incremental general improvement in things but even more than that running ordinary stuff really well.
    I am sure there is a good Pratchett quote to that effect.
    What politicians are dimly searching for, is government that is ergonomic. A machine that is made to be used by people. Not use people

    An example of sensible stuff i this vein is the growing use of the NHS App and associated accounts - your letters, appointments, test results etc, available for you to look at. True, at the moment is often a mess, but it is better than what proceeded it. I could see a steady effort, over years to make it better (simpler often). So that people feel they are in charge of their medical life - if they so choose.

    That is a part of what the phrase "taking back control" really means.

    Much of the current system of government is for the betterment of government. Not the people.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,384
    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    And how does she propose this should be organised? The ASA hold quotas, and advertisers have to apply if they want to put a black person in their adverts?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,384

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    Gaslighted preferably
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-something-greenlit-or-greenlighted/
    Quite like gaslit.
    When I was a young boy I used the phrase ‘dimly lit’. My family found it hilarious, as if it was somehow poor English. I have since seen it in many, many books. I bet even that old airport lounge hack, Sean Thomas Knox has used it.
    I say to myself that the earth is extinguished, though I never saw it lit
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,310
    edited October 25
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    So you get worked up about too many non-white people in ads? Really?
    No, not really. The absurdity makes me laugh or roll my eyes, but I wouldn’t say I was worked up about it.
    That's the point, it's absurd rather than upsetting. You might wonder who the advertisers think their targets are

  • isamisam Posts: 42,876

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,823

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Yes, this is the problem. See the England women's football team at Euro 2021.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    edited October 25
    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    So you get worked up about too many non-white people in ads? Really?
    No, not really. The absurdity makes me laugh or roll my eyes, but I wouldn’t say I was worked up about it.
    That's the point, it's absurd rather than upsetting. You might wonder whom the advertisers think their targets are

    As someone said upthread, it’s highly unlikely that youngsters watch much tv, and even less so the ads anymore anyway. My son, who is nearly 6, can’t get his head around the fact that we never used to be able to rewind live tv, or that we might miss a program if we weren’t in, and would never get the chance to see it again.
    I watch loads of ads because I'm too cheap to buy the premium versions of Netflix, Amazon, YouTube etc. I guess we'll soon have a GB News version of them that has mandated representative actors (i.e. loads of fat people).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,709
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AnneJGP said:

    DavidL said:

    So, back on topic, what does Starmer do with Powell now? Bring her back into the Cabinet weeks after he sacked her for not being very good? Ignore her?

    Not going to be easy with comments like this:
    "We must give a stronger sense of our purpose, whose side we are on and of our Labour values and beliefs,' she said.

    'People feel that this government is not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised.'

    And she thinks she is being supportive at this point!

    Speaking truth to power is being supportive.
    Speaking a load of cliches, OTOH, is pointless.
    It is rather.

    "Not being bold enough in delivering the kind of change we promised".

    Que?

    If I never hear the word CHANGE again it will be too soon for me.

    Unless it's pertaining to socks.
    Politicians don't seem to get that 'change' isn't for most the priority. Change is associated with the world in which Windows 10 is expensively transformed into Windows 11 and upgrades that make everything worse, and new time tables that don't run trains the times you want.

    Thye priority for the great majority is steady incremental general improvement in things but even more than that running ordinary stuff really well.
    I am sure there is a good Pratchett quote to that effect.
    'Under Lord Vetinari, for the first time in a thousand years, Ankh Morpork operated. It might not be particularly just or fair or democratic, but it all worked and you could be sure that tomorrow would come round and be much the same as today.

    Guards! guards!
    A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least they could tell the people he was their fault.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,499
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Because people are not uniformly spread, it is a nonsense to say there are 4% Black people. In some areas, there are many, many more; in others, none. This means that for every viewer, the proportion on telly is wrong. There is no right answer.

    But go back to the original and note that disabled people don't count, just as they did not matter when able-bodied trans & terfs were divvying up the disabled toilets between them.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    edited October 25
    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,560
    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    A lot of these adverts are for FMGC that millions, indeed, almost everyone, has to buy.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,498

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,877
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Yes, this is the problem. See the England women's football team at Euro 2021.
    Football teams have a terrible record on EDI. It seems to me that they are wholly composed of ultrafit young people. How can a overweight 62 year old like me be expected to identify with them?
    Oh, it's actually very simple: all you need to do is to identify as an incredibly fit 26 year old. That's what I do, and I'm expecting an England call up imminently.
    Liverpool are looking a bit short at the moment.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,719
    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,737
    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Yes, this is the problem. See the England women's football team at Euro 2021.
    Apart from anything else, they were all bloody English!

    Cricket is/was far more diverse. England cricket team used to have people from all over.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371
    algarkirk said:

    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.

    It's theirs to lose according to the usual idiots. Liverpool were five points clear a few weeks back.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    Is that really the case?



    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/media-use-and-attitudes/media-habits-adults/gen-z-swerves-traditional-broadcast-tv-as-less-than-half-tune-in-weekly
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,823
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    Depends on the recovery vehicle. The right machine will pull 80 tons easily. But the Ukrainians probably haven’t got the larger recovery vehicles.

    So you end up using 2-3 in train, chained together to recover a tank. Which is a lot of hard work.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,709
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    There was also a time when a lot of money was spent strengthening bridges across western Europe so that the M1 Abrams could actually cross them.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,384
    algarkirk said:

    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.

    Man United?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,823
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Yes, this is the problem. See the England women's football team at Euro 2021.
    Football teams have a terrible record on EDI. It seems to me that they are wholly composed of ultrafit young people. How can a overweight 62 year old like me be expected to identify with them?
    Oh, it's actually very simple: all you need to do is to identify as an incredibly fit 26 year old. That's what I do, and I'm expecting an England call up imminently.
    And the lawyers, if the bigoted England recruiters don’t call?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371

    algarkirk said:

    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.

    Man United?
    No Europe (or EFL Cup.)...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858
    algarkirk said:

    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.

    I’ve just wasted a pound on Man Utd. I think something is starting to click there now. It’s 30-1, and I doubt I’ll collect, but then Leicester we’re probably 1000-1.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,203

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Pochin apologises… and it’s a politicians apology “for any offence caused”

    My comments on a Talk TV phone-in earlier today were phrased poorly and I unreservedly apologise for any offence caused, which was not my intention.

    The point I was making is that many British TV adverts have gone DEI mad and are now unrepresentative of British society as a whole. This is not an attack on any group but an observation about balance and fairness in how our country is portrayed on screen.

    A study commissioned by Channel 4 as part of its Mirror on the Industry project, found that Black people were featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement. By contrast, Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 Census.

    Representation in advertising should reflect the diversity of modern Britain, but it should also be proportionate and inclusive of everyone. My comments were made in that context, and I stand by the principle that equality should mean fairness for all.


    https://x.com/sarahforruncorn/status/1982134759699464389?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I don’t really understand how you get a diverse set of adverts to somehow coordinate the ethnicity of their actors…

    I understand her sentiment, a bit. I have noticed and commented on how every family in adverts is now mixed race. But it’s pretty obvious why. I don’t think advertisers are trying to somehow gaslight people. They are trying to sell stuff.
    It’s up to advertisings agencies and their customers how they cast commercials, but you can be sure that, if they were cast in proportion to our diverse society, there’d be lots of protests about ‘not seeing people like me on tv’
    Because people are not uniformly spread, it is a nonsense to say there are 4% Black people. In some areas, there are many, many more; in others, none. This means that for every viewer, the proportion on telly is wrong. There is no right answer.

    But go back to the original and note that disabled people don't count, just as they did not matter when able-bodied trans & terfs were divvying up the disabled toilets between them.
    In the context of many, many adverts, it's the fact that a disabled person is disabled that doesn't count. Disabled people buy toothpaste, buy cereal, buy clothes. That's what counts. I gather that adverts are often not portraying the actual age group the merchandise is aimed at, as well, because people don't see themselves as that old, for example.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,502
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    Wiki says it's 66 tonnes?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_3
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,858

    algarkirk said:

    Brentford 3 Liverpool 1. Before everyone starts, it's far too early to think that this could be Arsenal's year. Been here before too many times.

    Man United?
    Yep. Probably not but you never know. A corner looks to have been turned.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,498
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    There was also a time when a lot of money was spent strengthening bridges across western Europe so that the M1 Abrams could actually cross them.
    The Abram's replacement is supposed to be considerably lighter.
    S Korea's MBT is also under 60t.

    There's also the point that few armies in Europe are procuring bridging vehicles that carry bridges that will support Challenger.

    It's an obsolete design.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,203
    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and his accidental description of Farage was quite memeable too.
    I thought it was just that if you only have white people in your adverts you'll get called racist so everyone has non-white people in which results in the ridiculous statistics.
    It's an odd thing for somebody to get worked up about and a 'tell' if they do.
    A ‘tell’ that they aren’t easily gaslit
    So you get worked up about too many non-white people in ads? Really?
    No, not really. The absurdity makes me laugh or roll my eyes, but I wouldn’t say I was worked up about it.
    That's the point, it's absurd rather than upsetting. You might wonder whom the advertisers think their targets are

    As someone said upthread, it’s highly unlikely that youngsters watch much tv, and even less so the ads anymore anyway. My son, who is nearly 6, can’t get his head around the fact that we never used to be able to rewind live tv, or that we might miss a program if we weren’t in, and would never get the chance to see it again.
    I watch loads of ads because I'm too cheap to buy the premium versions of Netflix, Amazon, YouTube etc. I guess we'll soon have a GB News version of them that has mandated representative actors (i.e. loads of fat people).
    I only watch YouTube but never watch the ads, I have it on transcript and read ahead. When the skip button comes up I skip to where I've got to.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    isam said:

    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    Is that really the case?



    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/media-use-and-attitudes/media-habits-adults/gen-z-swerves-traditional-broadcast-tv-as-less-than-half-tune-in-weekly
    Yes. You've already got a dishwasher.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,014
    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    It isn't a 'grand conspiracy' (what is?), but the rest of this is pretty inaccurate for something stated with such confident finality 'folks'. Different products and services all have very different target demographics, but the portrayal of an unrepresentative ethnic make up is ubiquitous. The presence of ethnic minority actors playing characters who would have been white in historical drama is clearly not a response to the wishes and mores of viewers of historical drama - it is an attempt to lead culture, not a reflection of consumer wishes.

    I don't get particularly exercised by all this. There's clearly an ideal of advertisement casting managers that is a mixed race family - usually afro-caribbean and white. In some ways there's a nice aspect - they're envisaging a colourblind society. I think it also has to do with London being where most of the biggest companies are located. Where it becomes less desirable is if it leads to a de-facto soft ban on white families being portrayed. That's swapping one form of prejudice for another.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,498
    edited October 25
    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    Wiki says it's 66 tonnes?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_3
    Some controversy over that.
    https://www.defenceeye.co.uk/2025/10/09/challenger-3-an-overweight-tank/
    ...The “new news”? That Challenger 3 is facing weight and thus power problems. The in-service Challenger 3, with all the add-on armour options, could come in at more than a dozen tonnes over the 66t weight mentioned in the RBSL infographic that we have reproduced with this article. Defence Eye hears from senior British Army sources that if all the add-on armour packages are fitted, Britain’s future main battle tank is significantly over this. The most recent but not only rise in weight has apparently come from adding extra “anti-drone armour” to the tank’s upper surfaces...
  • isamisam Posts: 42,876
    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    Is that really the case?



    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/media-use-and-attitudes/media-habits-adults/gen-z-swerves-traditional-broadcast-tv-as-less-than-half-tune-in-weekly
    Yes. You've already got a dishwasher.
    Yeah but we’re splitting up!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,330

    boulay said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    “ Pregnant women appeared in only 0.1 per cent of adverts, while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    By contrast, Black people remain significantly over-represented on screen. The study shows they featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 census.

    South Asian people appeared in 17 per cent of adverts, higher than the 8 per cent share of the population they represent, while East Asians were present in 11 per cent of campaigns, compared with 1 per cent of the public.

    Marcus Ryder, chief executive of the Film and TV Charity, said the imbalance shows the need for broader diversity among decision-makers in the industry.


    Not entirely sure how Mr Ryder concluded there need to be more diversity in advertising when the research shows minorities majorly over-represented.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
    My wife is in the industry - the majority of bookings go to “ethnically ambiguous” people because they appeal to the broadest demographic.

    More generally what you typically see is mixed race families - black male plus white female. The spending is mainly done by women (hence they are usually the most appealing character) but advertisers are concerned that an all white cast will limit their reach to non white audiences.

    The one exception to this is where you want a foolish/weak character - there it is usually a white male because of the concerns advertisers have about the power dynamic of an ethnic minority or a woman being mocked/bullied.

    So it’s all done for rational economic reasons, but the aggregate outcome is that it doesn’t reflect the composition of the population
    And your last paragraph is the key point. Adverts look the way they do for Darwinian economic reasons- companies that do it that way make more profits than those who don't. Same goes for the shows between the adverts. They are there to show what audiences want to watch, not to be a statistically accurate reflection of society. Not a conspiracy, just business.

    And that's always been true. Howard's Way was never an accurate reflection of life in Southern Hampshire.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,460
    isam said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    Is that really the case?



    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/media-use-and-attitudes/media-habits-adults/gen-z-swerves-traditional-broadcast-tv-as-less-than-half-tune-in-weekly
    Yes. You've already got a dishwasher.
    Yeah but we’re splitting up!
    Harsh!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,371

    boulay said:

    Eabhal said:

    isam said:

    Smeakybpartial quote from talktv, but Labour have picked up on it. Pochin is surely right here, I mean the figures do back her up. Farage won’t condemn it, and he shouldn’t either

    Nigel Farage needs to condemn this now, and urgently clarify whether Sarah Pochin’s views on race are welcome in his party.

    https://x.com/labourpress/status/1982106185672314978?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I'd be interested in an advertiser's/marketers view on this. I suspect there are some hard stats behind the diversity we see in adverts - the most valuable customers tend to be in their 20s/30s ; Gen Z/Millenials with their woke views on stuff like race and trans. Does that offset the unease it generates in boomers?

    Stuart in London seems to be asking for white DEI hires... and the fact he recognised the character in that ad as "Nigel" was quite memeable too.
    There was a report released at the end of September by Channel 4 breaking down stats in uk ads.

    “ Pregnant women appeared in only 0.1 per cent of adverts, while disabled people featured just 4 per cent of the time, a figure unchanged since 2018, despite making up nearly one in five of the population.

    By contrast, Black people remain significantly over-represented on screen. The study shows they featured in more than half of adverts in 2022, up sharply from 37 per cent in 2020 following the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Black people make up around 4 per cent of the population in England and Wales, according to the 2021 census.

    South Asian people appeared in 17 per cent of adverts, higher than the 8 per cent share of the population they represent, while East Asians were present in 11 per cent of campaigns, compared with 1 per cent of the public.

    Marcus Ryder, chief executive of the Film and TV Charity, said the imbalance shows the need for broader diversity among decision-makers in the industry.


    Not entirely sure how Mr Ryder concluded there need to be more diversity in advertising when the research shows minorities majorly over-represented.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pensioners-tv-adverts-mirror-on-the-industry-b2837888.html
    My wife is in the industry - the majority of bookings go to “ethnically ambiguous” people because they appeal to the broadest demographic.

    More generally what you typically see is mixed race families - black male plus white female. The spending is mainly done by women (hence they are usually the most appealing character) but advertisers are concerned that an all white cast will limit their reach to non white audiences.

    The one exception to this is where you want a foolish/weak character - there it is usually a white male because of the concerns advertisers have about the power dynamic of an ethnic minority or a woman being mocked/bullied.

    So it’s all done for rational economic reasons, but the aggregate outcome is that it doesn’t reflect the composition of the population
    And your last paragraph is the key point. Adverts look the way they do for Darwinian economic reasons- companies that do it that way make more profits than those who don't. Same goes for the shows between the adverts. They are there to show what audiences want to watch, not to be a statistically accurate reflection of society. Not a conspiracy, just business.

    And that's always been true. Howard's Way was never an accurate reflection of life in Southern Hampshire.
    And, to be fair, Eastenders isn't exactly representative of that part of London.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,310
    Funny how much people talk about binning red tape, letting the private sector loose, but also make such a big fuss about vegan menus, card only, and the ethnic make up of their adverts. It's always projection this chat about agendas.

    Anyway, a friend's quiet night in has escalated magnificently and I've been invited to tag along. I might even end up in a club so some catching up to do.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,203
    Nigelb said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    Wiki says it's 66 tonnes?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_3
    Some controversy over that.
    https://www.defenceeye.co.uk/2025/10/09/challenger-3-an-overweight-tank/
    ...The “new news”? That Challenger 3 is facing weight and thus power problems. The in-service Challenger 3, with all the add-on armour options, could come in at more than a dozen tonnes over the 66t weight mentioned in the RBSL infographic that we have reproduced with this article. Defence Eye hears from senior British Army sources that if all the add-on armour packages are fitted, Britain’s future main battle tank is significantly over this. The most recent but not only rise in weight has apparently come from adding extra “anti-drone armour” to the tank’s upper surfaces...
    Impregnable but immobile.
  • If TFL were to decide to crack down on fare dodging and they made a video to advertise their harsher enforcement, would the fare dodgers in the video be ethnically representative of the offenders?

    I expect we'd see just young white men jumping gates, and they'd probably spit in any non white face they saw
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,290
    edited October 25
    Eabhal said:

    Folks - it's not some grand conspiracy to impose a woke mindset on everyone. It's just that these advertising companies know what hits their target market of young, aspirational people with growing incomes, who are overwhelmingly on the left on cultural issues. That's all there is to it.

    I disagree. I think it’s more to do with the fact (as I think someone else pointed out earlier) that advertisers now need to walk a very delicate tightrope for fear of opprobrium. The easiest route is to tick as many boxes as one can, so as to avoid any critical voices saying there is a lack of representation.
  • Man Utd in top 4 ahead of Liverpool and with more points

    Who would have thought that a couple of weeks ago ?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,350
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    CatMan said:

    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Ukrainians emphasise mobility, endurance and repairability as critical attributes for armour. In contrast, they generally perceive Western tanks as overly heavy and hard to repair. Crews may appreciate their survivability, but commanders find their availability diminishes quickly. Battle damage to armour is considered an inevitable consequence of its employment. As a result, the speed at which it can be recovered and repaired is critical to maintaining the tempo of operations. Where repair is likely to be slow and difficult, commanders struggle to find use cases that justify exposing their armour...

    To be fair, western MBTs were designed with a cold war gone hot scenario with hordes of soviet tanks swarming into Germany. In that case a heavy, survivable tank in a pre-dug emplacement is exactly what you want. Long-term availability and maintenance was not of critical importance because the war was likely to be over in a few months at most.

    This is an issue with most western combat systems, they are complex machines intended to fight a conflict of limited duration.

    They were designed to be supported by a well equipped engineer corps. So American tanks assume that an entire spare power pack is available, with a crane to drop it into the tank.
    Interesting point about the Israeli Merkava is that the armour itself, however, is sectional. Bit damaged? Unbolt and bolt a new bit on. That's not possible in most/all other designs though I wonder about the Boxer.


    (The explosive reactive armour is of course already modular and easily replaceable on almost all modern designs AFAIK.)
    One of th3 great strengths of the allies in North Western Europe (44-45) was just how many knocked out tanks were returned to service. The Germans had little ability to do same, with disastrous consequences for them. Add in the replacement pool and allied tank units could suffer fearsome punishment and be back fighting again in short order. German units were attrited to death.

    The power of industry in war.
    Many tank battles ended up with all the tanks "out of service" - certainly many allied offensives paused at that point.

    The think was "u/s" was a bit of a moveable feast

    In a large number of cases the tank had stalled, the driver had flooded the engine trying to get it going, no luck and the crew bailed out. The recovery crews simply drove them back to the lines, that night. Then there were al kinds of minor things, like a snapped track link.
    The new Challenger 3 is over 80 tonnes.
    Recovering something that size is hard.

    A T80 is maybe 45 tonnes; Germany's new Panther around 60.
    Wiki says it's 66 tonnes?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_3
    Some controversy over that.
    https://www.defenceeye.co.uk/2025/10/09/challenger-3-an-overweight-tank/
    ...The “new news”? That Challenger 3 is facing weight and thus power problems. The in-service Challenger 3, with all the add-on armour options, could come in at more than a dozen tonnes over the 66t weight mentioned in the RBSL infographic that we have reproduced with this article. Defence Eye hears from senior British Army sources that if all the add-on armour packages are fitted, Britain’s future main battle tank is significantly over this. The most recent but not only rise in weight has apparently come from adding extra “anti-drone armour” to the tank’s upper surfaces...
    Impregnable but immobile.
    If a tank is immobilised, it's artillery
    If the ammo then runs out, it's a bunker

    If you are going to be in a battlefield, then a tank is the best place to be. Or at least The Chieftain says they are. But I am beginning to doubt... :(
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