Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
No, I'm saying that the losers of 2024 have been graceless and have heckled continually since their defeat.
Glad we've cleared that up.
Maybe using heckled was not the best description
Labour have collapsed in just 15 months and labour supporters are no doubt feeling the despair felt by many conservatives as their government also collapsed in popularity
Sorry BigG, but that's distraction therapy.
The people who should really be despairing are people like you and me- one nation types, the Butlers in Butskellism. Because that tradition appears to be dead. James Cleverly is many good things, but he's not their heir to Heseltine, Patten or Major.
We're left with two terrible options- let the right of the party drag us further Faragewards, or jump ship to Labour, or-worse still- the Liberal blooming Democrats.
By all means chortle as the other lot fail to solve the problems that the last government created. But recognise that you are doing show from a shop that has been sinking for years and is about to vanish below the waterline.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
You know fuck all about te Jewish community in Heaton Park or anywhere else. There were about four people who heckled Lammy and they were part of a faction of ethno nationalists I wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole. Not that I speak for the 'Jewish community' because it is as diverse as the 'Llandudno community' and doesn't think as one.
For the record the few who were heckling were heckling because like Netanyahu they don't believe in a two state solution They simply want a greater Israel.
"All mum did was congratulate the new Archbishop of Canterbury. She has be called vile, a travesty, ignorant, disgusting, an aberration, not a Christian, destroying the church & society & is a member of a cult, all because she is a female Priest. She is crying & I am furious."
The intolerance is unacceptable and probably from the Evangelical right
They need to understand the true meaning of Christianity and not dissect and twist the testaments to fit their very unchristian views . I am not a member of the COE but I wish her well
Or they're from Russian bots, or Americans, or common and garden trolls.
One way we reduce the division in society is to stop regarding social media comments as meaningful, and so stop reacting to them with anger and not being part of a cycle of discord.
The best of mornings to you Big G. We are enjoying the calm after the storm here in the West of Ireland.
Good morning to you and absolutely and we are also enjoying the calm
As an aside, I really hope the Trump Gaza plan comes through. It's been clear for a while that the best chance for the people of Gaza is for someone who isnt Hamas or Israel to take it over. I had thought it was mostly likely to be the Malaysians (as Muslims, but not Middle Eastern), but Tony Blair will do.
Hopefully he can oversee the rebuilding of Gaza, and make it a prosperous place that is no threat to its neighbour.
Simple capitalism - I've found - is the best antitode to extremism. (Indeed, you'd struggle to find a more diverse place than Goldman Sachs when I worked there in the late 1990s. Except perhaps from a neurodiversity point of view.)
Governor-General Blair.
Is he going to wear a pith helmet with a plume filled with chicken feathers.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
As an aside, I really hope the Trump Gaza plan comes through. It's been clear for a while that the best chance for the people of Gaza is for someone who isnt Hamas or Israel to take it over. I had thought it was mostly likely to be the Malaysians (as Muslims, but not Middle Eastern), but Tony Blair will do.
Hopefully he can oversee the rebuilding of Gaza, and make it a prosperous place that is no threat to its neighbour.
Simple capitalism - I've found - is the best antitode to extremism. (Indeed, you'd struggle to find a more diverse place than Goldman Sachs when I worked there in the late 1990s. Except perhaps from a neurodiversity point of view.)
Governor-General Blair.
Is he going to wear a pith helmet with a plume filled with chicken feathers.
As George BRown memorably said to a Labour MP he didn't like who had been made Governor of some late colonial outpost:
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
To a degree, but the full article in my link is well worth a read. We are not a nation of Andy Capps any more, and it is a strange part of the media-political bubble to think so. We are a nation of service industry workers. There is a working class, but no longer miners and ship-builders, they are cleaners, call centre operators, delivery drivers etc.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of assembly.
I agree that restricting either is illiberal, and therefore bad, but state curtailment of freedom of assembly is always going to be exercised more than curtailment of speech. In this case we are dealing with serial protestors who protest as an expression of their narcissistic identity ahead of it being an exercise of free speech.
I admire those Conservative members and supporters who continue to fly the flag for their cause. It's a bit like what it was to be a Liberal in the 1970s or a Lib Dem after 2015 or a Labour supporter after 1983 and to be fair I didn't know how the Conservative Party would deal with a defeat on the scale of 2024 or indeed with its supplanting by a new force.
It's not about success or failure if you support a particular political cause or its core principles - even when no one else wants to know, you keep the faith and if you think that's a quasi-religous metaphor, it is.
The problem all parties face when confronted with the futility of failure is what to do - you can chase success by running to where you think the voters are on any issue or you can stay true to their principles, argue your case and wait for the voters to come to you. In essence, most parties do a bit of both but all the 20th century (and earlier) political ideologies have been challenged as never before by societal, economic and cultural changes.
Defining conservatism, socialism and liberalism for the 21st century isn't easy and it's little wonder the siren calls of populism resonate so strongly - blaming someone else for all the problems has always worked well and whether it's migrants, the "lazy" people on welfare and whoever else you want to pigeonhole, demonising groups has always been the refuge of those for whom the pursuit of power is all that matters.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
You know fuck all about te Jewish community in Heaton Park or anywhere else. There were about four people who heckled Lammy and they were part of a faction of ethno nationalists I wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole. Not that I speak for the 'Jewish community' because it is as diverse as the 'Llandudno community' and doesn't think as one.
For the record the few who were heckling were heckling because like Netanyahu they don't believe in a two state solution They simply want a greater Israel.
You couldn't be more wrong
For your information I was born within a few miles of Heaton Park, sheltering under a steel table from Hitlers bombs, one of which fell close to us killing 6 of our neighbours
We had a very active Jewish community near and everyone was terrified and horrified by the holocaust
As for your last sentence please provide your evidence, or are you just trying to downplay the fear of the Jewish community ?
And right now the leader labour need is speaking on Trevor Philips, Shabana Mahmood
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of assembly.
I agree that restricting either is illiberal, and therefore bad, but state curtailment of freedom of assembly is always going to be exercised more than curtailment of speech. In this case we are dealing with serial protestors who protest as an expression of their narcissistic identity ahead of it being an exercise of free speech.
I don't think the government thinking it's to do with "narcisstic identity" is enough to suspend that right. On that basis, a Labour government could prohibit all far-right protests if it felt the same about them.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
To a degree, but the full article in my link is well worth a read. We are not a nation of Andy Capps any more, and it is a strange part of the media-political bubble to think so. We are a nation of service industry workers. There is a working class, but no longer miners and ship-builders, they are cleaners, call centre operators, delivery drivers etc.
The ending of unionisation had a huge impact but so have other technological and societal changes. Imagine if we had a powerful union representing all delivery drivers or all office cleaners and the disruption that would cause but we don't.
The transition from a manufacturing based work force to a service based work force is one of the great economic shifts of our time.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
I find it a bit weirder in the case of Labour.
They have already alienated the bedrock of white working class support that used to be their traditional base. They have over time built a firmer support base in the managerial professional classes, but now seem resolved to annoy them too. Their ethnic minority vote seems to be going backwards too, particularly in light of issues like Gaza for some Muslim voters.
They seem to be on a mission to annoy everyone. The Tories did similar but at least (even if I think this has been damaging for the country) they decided to go all in on the pensioner vote.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
To a degree, but the full article in my link is well worth a read. We are not a nation of Andy Capps any more, and it is a strange part of the media-political bubble to think so. We are a nation of service industry workers. There is a working class, but no longer miners and ship-builders, they are cleaners, call centre operators, delivery drivers etc.
And the question is... why?
The nearest I've got to a theory is that the media-political bubble skews old. Their mental map of the world was set in the before times, and they can't imagine redrawing it. Indeed, some of what we are seeing is a reaction against having to do so.
(The weird thing is that, to actually remember the before times, you have to be seriously old. But if your 60 now, you grew up with the cultural tropes of your parents... Ladybird books and whatnot. It's the only way I can make the timings work.)
Labour in government habit of going all authorian showing through again. It's only 2 mins since the Tories attempt to curtail JSO blocking all the roads on a daily basis was met with outrage by Labour.
I admire those Conservative members and supporters who continue to fly the flag for their cause. It's a bit like what it was to be a Liberal in the 1970s or a Lib Dem after 2015 or a Labour supporter after 1983 and to be fair I didn't know how the Conservative Party would deal with a defeat on the scale of 2024 or indeed with its supplanting by a new force.
It's not about success or failure if you support a particular political cause or its core principles - even when no one else wants to know, you keep the faith and if you think that's a quasi-religous metaphor, it is.
The problem all parties face when confronted with the futility of failure is what to do - you can chase success by running to where you think the voters are on any issue or you can stay true to their principles, argue your case and wait for the voters to come to you. In essence, most parties do a bit of both but all the 20th century (and earlier) political ideologies have been challenged as never before by societal, economic and cultural changes.
Defining conservatism, socialism and liberalism for the 21st century isn't easy and it's little wonder the siren calls of populism resonate so strongly - blaming someone else for all the problems has always worked well and whether it's migrants, the "lazy" people on welfare and whoever else you want to pigeonhole, demonising groups has always been the refuge of those for whom the pursuit of power is all that matters.
It is harder for Conservatives, because pragmatic pursuit of power is a large part of what we do. Compared to socialism and liberalism, there isn't the same sense of a core idea, or the same interest in defining one.
What does a party like do once it is powerless? (As of now, Conservatives run two mayoralities, a few counties, a handful of boroughs.) Partly, throw a massive strop, partly flail around for something that looks popular.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
When the Brexit debate was in full flow, Nigel was the vanguard. His platform, messaging and supporters were all behind him. The definition of a leader you could argue. A vision of what could be if only everyone got behind him. And then came along Boris who actually had the means to do it. The messiah in the form of Boris had arrived, and the UKIP bubble was burst. Boris of the two-letters had lanced the UKIP boil.
So do the Tories actually have the passion and belief of Nigel or are they simply the experts in hijacking a bandwagon to their own purposes? So does the present Conservative party actually believe in the Reform rhetoric and can they hijack Nigel's bandwagon again.
My stated view is Kemi is a dud, and Nigel is a serial loser politically but he has that leadership quality of being able to motivate people (policies aside). I'm not sure the Conservatives can hijack this bandwagon again with Kemi there, but if that photogenic, Thatcher tribute act, Katie Lam were in place it might just work.
Labour in government habit of going all authorian showing through again. It's only 2 mins since the Tories attempt to curtail JSO blocking all the roads on a daily basis was met with outrage by Labour.
The government has now reached a desperate, highly reactive phase where all policy now appears to be made on the hoof to address whatever shortcoming or criticism is most prominent that day.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
These people getting arrested for supporting PA are absolute morons on a number of levels, but anybody with half a brain could protest the action of the government banning them without supporting directly PA i.e. protest over the wide ranging definition of terrorism in the act. That is not illegal and perfectly acceptable protest.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
No, I'm saying that the losers of 2024 have been graceless and have heckled continually since their defeat.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
These people getting arrested for supporting PA are absolute morons on a number of levels, but anybody with half a brain could protest the action of the government banning them without supporting directly PA i.e. protest over the wide ranging definition of terrorism in the act. That is not illegal and perfectly acceptable protest.
It would be interesting to see protestors against the banning of PA, could be an interesting court case. Could be seen as support for PA, but also clearly crosses the free speech line of protesting against government action.
Would I be guilty of an offence if I said I supported the IRA in taking up arms to defend catholics being burnt out of their homes my protestant mobs in I think 1969?
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
You know fuck all about te Jewish community in Heaton Park or anywhere else. There were about four people who heckled Lammy and they were part of a faction of ethno nationalists I wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole. Not that I speak for the 'Jewish community' because it is as diverse as the 'Llandudno community' and doesn't think as one.
For the record the few who were heckling were heckling because like Netanyahu they don't believe in a two state solution They simply want a greater Israel.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
Have you asked all of them?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
To a degree, but the full article in my link is well worth a read. We are not a nation of Andy Capps any more, and it is a strange part of the media-political bubble to think so. We are a nation of service industry workers. There is a working class, but no longer miners and ship-builders, they are cleaners, call centre operators, delivery drivers etc.
And the question is... why?
The nearest I've got to a theory is that the media-political bubble skews old. Their mental map of the world was set in the before times, and they can't imagine redrawing it. Indeed, some of what we are seeing is a reaction against having to do so.
(The weird thing is that, to actually remember the before times, you have to be seriously old. But if your 60 now, you grew up with the cultural tropes of your parents... Ladybird books and whatnot. It's the only way I can make the timings work.)
I was actually thinking about that the other day during a discussion on here - the retention of the term 'council house' when it is now a minor element of public social housing. Though a modification or at least subsection extension of your theory may be that the media-political bubble is also targeted at what used to be the classic but increasingly rather elderly Tory voter/DM and DE reader.
" Labour has chosen to make the university sector, if not quite an enemy, more of an embarrassing distant relation worthy of disdain. At the same time as relying on the votes of everyone vaguely attached to it.
It’s a bold strategy but Labour aren’t the first political party to turn on their core support. Their recent predecessors, the Conservatives, by the end of their time in government seemed positively embarrassed about managers, professionals, and local worthies. And yuppies? Don’t mention them. Shiver…
Both major political parties appear to be going through some odd form of psychopathology where they have become embarrassed to be supported by anyone who could be vaguely pigeonholed as ‘middle-class’."
The very term "middle class" has had its meaning and symbolism distorted to the point it has become almost a perjorative.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
To a degree, but the full article in my link is well worth a read. We are not a nation of Andy Capps any more, and it is a strange part of the media-political bubble to think so. We are a nation of service industry workers. There is a working class, but no longer miners and ship-builders, they are cleaners, call centre operators, delivery drivers etc.
And the question is... why?
The nearest I've got to a theory is that the media-political bubble skews old. Their mental map of the world was set in the before times, and they can't imagine redrawing it. Indeed, some of what we are seeing is a reaction against having to do so.
(The weird thing is that, to actually remember the before times, you have to be seriously old. But if your 60 now, you grew up with the cultural tropes of your parents... Ladybird books and whatnot. It's the only way I can make the timings work.)
Well I'm not THAT old - i'm 50 - and I'd say in 1980 manual work was still the norm.
But you don't have to be a manual worker to find the views of the modern Labour party a bit jarring. The jobs people in Wythenshawe or Atherton or Horwich may have changed, but that doesn't mean they're suddenly cock a hoop about diversity initiatives and immigration.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
Have you asked all of them?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
As long as they do so without supporting a proscribed terror group then fine.
Like in the eighties you could support a United ireland without supporting the terror groups.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
Have you asked all of them?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
As long as they do so without supporting a proscribed terror group then fine.
Like in the eighties you could support a United ireland without supporting the terror groups.
If I am taking a step back (which I have to do, because I find these protests exceptionally distasteful at the very least, and incredibly concerning for the social fabric of the country), we obviously need to be careful here because there is a distinction to be made between support of PA and support of the Palestinian cause. Unfortunately it feels to me like some of this is easy to conflate and exceptionally difficult to police. I don’t have the answer to that, nor do I know how the police are approaching that conundrum, but it goes to show how difficult the issue is.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
You know fuck all about te Jewish community in Heaton Park or anywhere else. There were about four people who heckled Lammy and they were part of a faction of ethno nationalists I wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole. Not that I speak for the 'Jewish community' because it is as diverse as the 'Llandudno community' and doesn't think as one.
For the record the few who were heckling were heckling because like Netanyahu they don't believe in a two state solution They simply want a greater Israel.
You couldn't be more wrong
For your information I was born within a few miles of Heaton Park, sheltering under a steel table from Hitlers bombs, one of which fell close to us killing 6 of our neighbours
We had a very active Jewish community near and everyone was terrified and horrified by the holocaust
As for your last sentence please provide your evidence, or are you just trying to downplay the fear of the Jewish community ?
And right now the leader labour need is speaking on Trevor Philips, Shabana Mahmood
I'm sorry if i was abrupt. But living near Heaton Park or Prestwich won't help you much if you are trying to find out which way the locals are thinking. Jews who live in that area are most likely to be ulra Orthadox of which even I would know nothing if it wasn't that my sister married one and now 12 children later and 70 or 80 nieces and nephews later I feel I undersatand their community and their very bizarre way they live their lives better than most.
Booing Lammy embarrassed my sister though she didn't hear it and it would have done to most who were there. The Elon Levi's and David Mensa's are nothing to do with them. They get on with their lives and their rituals and trying to involve them in Israeli and UK politics and use the booing of David Lammy is really unfair and misleading and I know they'll be embarrassed
I don't speak to them about Israeli politics because I like them and I don't want to fall out. The only thing I will say is that in my wider Jewish circle of friends there are more opposed to Netanyahu than support him. And by a distance
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
Have you asked all of them?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
Don't confuse the issues.
If you protest against Israel a day or two after a terrorist attack against a synagogue in this country, then you are making your views very clear.
Great - now the police have the power to arrest anyone attending "repeated" protests. Hope the PB free speech brigade are happy.
I have zero sympathy with the anti-Jewish shits who got arrested yesterday. Zero. Nada. Null.
Straw man argument. Piss off.
Why?
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
Opinions are fine. Arresting people for protest is not.
They're protesting for a proscribed organisation. And they're doing it when the community many of them are targeting has just suffered a terrorist attack.
Have you asked all of them?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
As long as they do so without supporting a proscribed terror group then fine.
Like in the eighties you could support a United ireland without supporting the terror groups.
If I am taking a step back (which I have to do, because I find these protests exceptionally distasteful at the very least, and incredibly concerning for the social fabric of the country), we obviously need to be careful here because there is a distinction to be made between support of PA and support of the Palestinian cause. Unfortunately it feels to me like some of this is easy to conflate and exceptionally difficult to police. I don’t have the answer to that, nor do I know how the police are approaching that conundrum, but it goes to show how difficult the issue is.
Indeed.
I'd quite like it if the protestors threw the obvious anti-Semites out of the protests instead of throwing out people who are also (say) pro-Palestinian and pro-homosexuality.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
No, I'm saying that the losers of 2024 have been graceless and have heckled continually since their defeat.
Glad we've cleared that up.
And the Labour Party always took its defeats so well - total sports people.
We saw the same thing under New Labour - “you can’t criticise us, we are the Labour Party!”
As an aside, I really hope the Trump Gaza plan comes through. It's been clear for a while that the best chance for the people of Gaza is for someone who isnt Hamas or Israel to take it over. I had thought it was mostly likely to be the Malaysians (as Muslims, but not Middle Eastern), but Tony Blair will do.
Hopefully he can oversee the rebuilding of Gaza, and make it a prosperous place that is no threat to its neighbour.
Simple capitalism - I've found - is the best antitode to extremism. (Indeed, you'd struggle to find a more diverse place than Goldman Sachs when I worked there in the late 1990s. Except perhaps from a neurodiversity point of view.)
Governor-General Blair.
Is he going to wear a pith helmet with a plume filled with chicken feathers.
As an aside, I really hope the Trump Gaza plan comes through. It's been clear for a while that the best chance for the people of Gaza is for someone who isnt Hamas or Israel to take it over. I had thought it was mostly likely to be the Malaysians (as Muslims, but not Middle Eastern), but Tony Blair will do.
Hopefully he can oversee the rebuilding of Gaza, and make it a prosperous place that is no threat to its neighbour.
Simple capitalism - I've found - is the best antitode to extremism. (Indeed, you'd struggle to find a more diverse place than Goldman Sachs when I worked there in the late 1990s. Except perhaps from a neurodiversity point of view.)
Governor-General Blair.
Is he going to wear a pith helmet with a plume filled with chicken feathers.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
No, I'm saying that the losers of 2024 have been graceless and have heckled continually since their defeat.
Glad we've cleared that up.
Maybe using heckled was not the best description
Labour have collapsed in just 15 months and labour supporters are no doubt feeling the despair felt by many conservatives as their government also collapsed in popularity
Sorry BigG, but that's distraction therapy.
The people who should really be despairing are people like you and me- one nation types, the Butlers in Butskellism. Because that tradition appears to be dead. James Cleverly is many good things, but he's not their heir to Heseltine, Patten or Major.
We're left with two terrible options- let the right of the party drag us further Faragewards, or jump ship to Labour, or-worse still- the Liberal blooming Democrats.
Why would that be "worse still" ?
I can understand the wish not to have to jump ship at all, but a significant number of such moves would have far more of a chance recreating something of what you mourn there, than it would with Labour.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Marching this weekend, after what happened on Thursday, is absolutely disgusting. Shame on the marchers.
Having read that article and others, I fear the problem is that, for many of the protestors, it is simply Palestinians=good, Israel=bad. The idea that Palestinians - and this includes Hamas - might have bad people or (heaven forfend!) be actually worse than Israel is anathema. Or worse: they accept that Hamas does bad things, but they're doing it in defence of Palestinians, which makes it okay.
I note there has been an attack on a Mosque overnight
We need strong government action as Andy Burnham and Kemi Bademoch jointly said last night in Manchester
Words are cheap.
Burnham has the capacity to do something about this Manchester wide, he is the Police Commissioner. Badenoch and her party were equally as ineffective as the current Government appears to be whilst in office.
Actually their joint meeting with the police and the public was well received
Compare and contrast that to the reception Lammy received !!!!
His reception was bad, but what Lammy said, and how he delivered it in the situation, was good.
His words are only good if he is able to empathize with the vigil and those mourning and angry which he didn't
Give over. They didn't give him a chance; they were heckling him before he spoke.
Which is part of the problem this government has had from the start. They haven't helped themselves, good heavens they haven't helped themselves, but the graceless heckling from the losers has been unprecedented.
A significant slice of the electorate and media have not got the government they wanted for the first time in nearly half a century. I shouldn't be surprised at how badly they have taken that, but I still am.
Starmer got the jobs of Labour leader and PM because the available alternatives were clearly worse. That still applies now; until it changes, we're stuck with him.
Are you really saying the Jewish Community who heckled Lammy are graceless losers ?
Words fail me
No, I'm saying that the losers of 2024 have been graceless and have heckled continually since their defeat.
Glad we've cleared that up.
Maybe using heckled was not the best description
Labour have collapsed in just 15 months and labour supporters are no doubt feeling the despair felt by many conservatives as their government also collapsed in popularity
Sorry BigG, but that's distraction therapy.
The people who should really be despairing are people like you and me- one nation types, the Butlers in Butskellism. Because that tradition appears to be dead. James Cleverly is many good things, but he's not their heir to Heseltine, Patten or Major.
We're left with two terrible options- let the right of the party drag us further Faragewards, or jump ship to Labour, or-worse still- the Liberal blooming Democrats.
Why would that be "worse still" ?
I can understand the wish not to have to jump ship at all, but a significant number of such moves would have far more of a chance recreating something of what you mourn there, than it would with Labour.
Rationally, you are right, of course.
But it's never just rational, is it? There's difficulty escaping my formative politics, which was definitely of the "Labour are the opposition, Liberals are the enemy" sort (and the local Liberals at the time were of the unpleasantly ruthless cynical sub breed.) I joke about the prospect of ancestors turning in their graves, but it's only just joking.
I suspect it's why there have been so few defections of wet Conservatives since Boris. They have wandered off, or held on to the flagpole, even when there's not much of a flag left.
...The problem with the Tory Party is that is has always been based upon compromise, working with others for the good of the country. Thus we didn't believe in Nationalisation but in 1951 we tried to make the Labour post war settlement work. When we try to pull back a little there is all hell on, see 1979.
From 2010 to 2024 we worked with others for a consensus, doing the best we could but without overturning what was already there. And now that has bitten us in the arse....
Ahem
From 1979 to 1989 the Conservative Party was extremely divisive, splitting the country into two as it converted the country from one based on heavy engineering and nation-based into one based on light-engineering and internationally-based
From 2010 to 2016 the Conservative Party was extremely divisive, splitting the country into two as it converted the country into one side based on Leave and another side based on Remain in the EU membership debate
From 2016 to 2019 the Conservative Party was all over the shop, with the only time it worked with others was when it was battling itself
From 2020 to 2024 the Conservative Party was all over the shop, with policy stances changing on whim with three Prime Ministers in one term, one who couldn't keep his dick in his pants, another who shat the bed and may now be insane, and a third that had no real vision other than chess club, and the only coherent policy it had was to import people in the hundreds of thousands per year.
Matthew Syed talks to Palestine Action supporters, and it goes as expected.
Um, hold on a minute. This is the question he asked, and these are the responses he got
MS: “Who do you blame for what is unfolding in Gaza? Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility?” Protester 1: “Go away,” P2: “Go away. You are a bad faith actor. We don’t want to talk to you. Just f*** off. It’s a really boring old line. You are disgusting.” MS: “I am disgusting?” P2: “Yes, you are disgusting. You are not a journalist. It’s very clear what your position is here.” Pmany: “Piss off.”
MS: “Thanks for your time, I appreciate it,” P3: “What are you doing here anyway? You are prejudiced. Hopefully nobody will ever buy a book you write. You are a charlatan. You are a f***ing racist.” P4: “Well said, sister.” P5: “Yeah, well said!”
P6: “I have seen you all afternoon trying to get a rise from people.” MS: “I only asked if Hamas is partly responsible. Is that so very provocative?” P7: “You are here to cause trouble and you are going to get trouble,”
(later, as police carried off an elderly protester)
Pmany: “Shame on you! Shame on you!” MS: “But are they not following the instruction of a democratically elected government — even if you disagree with it — and upholding the rule of law?” P8: “F*** democracy. F*** the police.”
This is not a journalistic investigation, it's a VIZ cartoon
Comments
This is where we're at.
The people who should really be despairing are people like you and me- one nation types, the Butlers in Butskellism. Because that tradition appears to be dead. James Cleverly is many good things, but he's not their heir to Heseltine, Patten or Major.
We're left with two terrible options- let the right of the party drag us further Faragewards, or jump ship to Labour, or-worse still- the Liberal blooming Democrats.
By all means chortle as the other lot fail to solve the problems that the last government created. But recognise that you are doing show from a shop that has been sinking for years and is about to vanish below the waterline.
For the record the few who were heckling were heckling because like Netanyahu they don't believe in a two state solution They simply want a greater Israel.
Is he going to wear a pith helmet with a plume filled with chicken feathers.
Nobody wants to be seen to be identified with a group that is itself a point of ridicule. We get all this guff about LD supporters only going to Waitrose or Gail's for example - it's easy piegon holing of your opponents.
Whether we live in a "classless" society or not I don't know but we certainly aren't where Cleese, Barker and Corbett had us 60 years ago. It's complex and nuanced and those trying to do cheap political commentary struggle with such concepts.
The days when Labour were the party of "the workers" and the Conservatives the party of "the bosses" are long past and as society has fragmented so have the bases of support. Even notions of workers and bosses have changed beyond all recognition.
'Well, I hope the fucking feathers all fall out.'
It's performative word play, it's a number plucked out of the air, it just reinforces Farage.
On Thursday, a Muslim terrorist attacked a synagogue. That very evening, pro-Palestine shits spontaneously protested.
That's because they're not pro-Palestine. They're anti-Jew.
To be clear: I'm not calling for demonstrations to be banned. But if you protest, spreading fear and hatred, immediately after a terrorist attack on a community, then you're sick in the head. They have zero compassion, zero empathy and zero common decency. They could at least have not protested this weekend.
And yes, I know you feel strongly about this. But here's the thing: so do I. And others.
I agree that restricting either is illiberal, and therefore bad, but state curtailment of freedom of assembly is always going to be exercised more than curtailment of speech. In this case we are dealing with serial protestors who protest as an expression of their narcissistic identity ahead of it being an exercise of free speech.
How do they know it should be 750k and not 250k or 1.5m 4 years in advance? It is nonsense for press headlines.
I admire those Conservative members and supporters who continue to fly the flag for their cause. It's a bit like what it was to be a Liberal in the 1970s or a Lib Dem after 2015 or a Labour supporter after 1983 and to be fair I didn't know how the Conservative Party would deal with a defeat on the scale of 2024 or indeed with its supplanting by a new force.
It's not about success or failure if you support a particular political cause or its core principles - even when no one else wants to know, you keep the faith and if you think that's a quasi-religous metaphor, it is.
The problem all parties face when confronted with the futility of failure is what to do - you can chase success by running to where you think the voters are on any issue or you can stay true to their principles, argue your case and wait for the voters to come to you. In essence, most parties do a bit of both but all the 20th century (and earlier) political ideologies have been challenged as never before by societal, economic and cultural changes.
Defining conservatism, socialism and liberalism for the 21st century isn't easy and it's little wonder the siren calls of populism resonate so strongly - blaming someone else for all the problems has always worked well and whether it's migrants, the "lazy" people on welfare and whoever else you want to pigeonhole, demonising groups has always been the refuge of those for whom the pursuit of power is all that matters.
For your information I was born within a few miles of Heaton Park, sheltering under a steel table from Hitlers bombs, one of which fell close to us killing 6 of our neighbours
We had a very active Jewish community near and everyone was terrified and horrified by the holocaust
As for your last sentence please provide your evidence, or are you just trying to downplay the fear of the Jewish community ?
And right now the leader labour need is speaking on Trevor Philips, Shabana Mahmood
The transition from a manufacturing based work force to a service based work force is one of the great economic shifts of our time.
They have already alienated the bedrock of white working class support that used to be their traditional base. They have over time built a firmer support base in the managerial professional classes, but now seem resolved to annoy them too. Their ethnic minority vote seems to be going backwards too, particularly in light of issues like Gaza for some Muslim voters.
They seem to be on a mission to annoy everyone. The Tories did similar but at least (even if I think this has been damaging for the country) they decided to go all in on the pensioner vote.
The nearest I've got to a theory is that the media-political bubble skews old. Their mental map of the world was set in the before times, and they can't imagine redrawing it. Indeed, some of what we are seeing is a reaction against having to do so.
(The weird thing is that, to actually remember the before times, you have to be seriously old. But if your 60 now, you grew up with the cultural tropes of your parents... Ladybird books and whatnot. It's the only way I can make the timings work.)
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c24rmdngrrjo
Labour in government habit of going all authorian showing through again. It's only 2 mins since the Tories attempt to curtail JSO blocking all the roads on a daily basis was met with outrage by Labour.
What does a party like do once it is powerless? (As of now, Conservatives run two mayoralities, a few counties, a handful of boroughs.) Partly, throw a massive strop, partly flail around for something that looks popular.
As we are seeing.
When the Brexit debate was in full flow, Nigel was the vanguard. His platform, messaging and supporters were all behind him. The definition of a leader you could argue. A vision of what could be if only everyone got behind him. And then came along Boris who actually had the means to do it. The messiah in the form of Boris had arrived, and the UKIP bubble was burst. Boris of the two-letters had lanced the UKIP boil.
So do the Tories actually have the passion and belief of Nigel or are they simply the experts in hijacking a bandwagon to their own purposes? So does the present Conservative party actually believe in the Reform rhetoric and can they hijack Nigel's bandwagon again.
My stated view is Kemi is a dud, and Nigel is a serial loser politically but he has that leadership quality of being able to motivate people (policies aside). I'm not sure the Conservatives can hijack this bandwagon again with Kemi there, but if that photogenic, Thatcher tribute act, Katie Lam were in place it might just work.
Good policy is not made that way.
Would I be guilty of an offence if I said I supported the IRA in taking up arms to defend catholics being burnt out of their homes my protestant mobs in I think 1969?
What about the people from the Church of Scotland hanging Palestine flags off Friar's bridge each weekend? These are the kind of people that the police will now arrest.
NEW THREAD
But you don't have to be a manual worker to find the views of the modern Labour party a bit jarring. The jobs people in Wythenshawe or Atherton or Horwich may have changed, but that doesn't mean they're suddenly cock a hoop about diversity initiatives and immigration.
Like in the eighties you could support a United ireland without supporting the terror groups.
Booing Lammy embarrassed my sister though she didn't hear it and it would have done to most who were there. The Elon Levi's and David Mensa's are nothing to do with them. They get on with their lives and their rituals and trying to involve them in Israeli and UK politics and use the booing of David Lammy is really unfair and misleading and I know they'll be embarrassed
I don't speak to them about Israeli politics because I like them and I don't want to fall out. The only thing I will say is that in my wider Jewish circle of friends there are more opposed to Netanyahu than support him. And by a distance
If you protest against Israel a day or two after a terrorist attack against a synagogue in this country, then you are making your views very clear.
I'd quite like it if the protestors threw the obvious anti-Semites out of the protests instead of throwing out people who are also (say) pro-Palestinian and pro-homosexuality.
We saw the same thing under New Labour - “you can’t criticise us, we are the Labour Party!”
I can understand the wish not to have to jump ship at all, but a significant number of such moves would have far more of a chance recreating something of what you mourn there, than it would with Labour.
But it's never just rational, is it? There's difficulty escaping my formative politics, which was definitely of the "Labour are the opposition, Liberals are the enemy" sort (and the local Liberals at the time were of the unpleasantly ruthless cynical sub breed.) I joke about the prospect of ancestors turning in their graves, but it's only just joking.
I suspect it's why there have been so few defections of wet Conservatives since Boris. They have wandered off, or held on to the flagpole, even when there's not much of a flag left.
MS: “Who do you blame for what is unfolding in Gaza? Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility?”
Protester 1: “Go away,”
P2: “Go away. You are a bad faith actor. We don’t want to talk to you. Just f*** off. It’s a really boring old line. You are disgusting.”
MS: “I am disgusting?”
P2: “Yes, you are disgusting. You are not a journalist. It’s very clear what your position is here.”
Pmany: “Piss off.”
MS: “Thanks for your time, I appreciate it,”
P3: “What are you doing here anyway? You are prejudiced. Hopefully nobody will ever buy a book you write. You are a charlatan. You are a f***ing racist.”
P4: “Well said, sister.”
P5: “Yeah, well said!”
P6: “I have seen you all afternoon trying to get a rise from people.”
MS: “I only asked if Hamas is partly responsible. Is that so very provocative?”
P7: “You are here to cause trouble and you are going to get trouble,”
(later, as police carried off an elderly protester)
Pmany: “Shame on you! Shame on you!”
MS: “But are they not following the instruction of a democratically elected government — even if you disagree with it — and upholding the rule of law?”
P8: “F*** democracy. F*** the police.”
This is not a journalistic investigation, it's a VIZ cartoon