Why does it matter if people sees themselves as a Londoners or not? If people want to belong to the capital enough to call themselves a 'Londoner', then surely that can only be a good thing? It shows they want to belong to the thriving metropolis, that they feel it is a home.
Most people I know, if you asked where they came from, would say 'London' as a short-hand, but would really mean 'Golders Green', or 'Queens Park', or 'Notting Hill'.
I left (South) London permanently at 21, now prefer visiting to living there, but I felt genuinely insulted when an immigrant to London said I wasn't a "real Londoner".
They'd asked me where I was from, and I'd said London, as I'd become used to doing when talking to people in the places I moved to in the West. They told me that a true Londoner would have said "Clapham" or "Hackney", as a true Londoner would be aware of the nuances in identity that exist across the Capital.
The interesting thing I realised about this when I'd calmed down was that when I was living in London I would have answered "Streatham", or "West Norwood", rather than London, because most of the time I would have been talking to other Londoners, and so saying that one was from London would be rather redundant. However, people who have only visited London are unlikely to have ever heard of Wandsworth, or Tooting, and when I talked to non-Londoners I found myself having to explain that Streatham was just south of Brixton "where the riots were", because they were likely to at least have heard of Brixton.
The conclusion I come to about this is that most people are pretty insular, and despite the supposedly vibrant and cosmopolitan nature of London, a city with a reasonable claim to being *the* world city, true Londoners are even more insular than most other people, and quite smug about it.
When I lived in London, north London was almost like a foreign country and one of the attractions of the big wheel on the Thames was that you could just see beyond the edge of the city - to the edges of the known world.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
TSE or even Scottish / Scottish
I wanna be Scottish if you chaps vote yes.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
Oh is Richard Tyndall the arbiter of whats what then?!
Think what you like I guess, but I take it you're not a Londoner anymore because you live up north? A real Londoner is a Londoner wherever they live now.
I've always enjoyed Richard's contribution.
Just like you're the arbiter of what constitutes a Londoner.
As I said, when I lived and worked in London, I considered myself a Londoner, as I loved the city and the opportunities it gave me.
Where else could I see the plays We Will Rock You and Mamma Mia on a daily basis?
Oh look, Im not saying that it is better or worse to be what I define as a Londoner, just that those people have different views on the changing face of London, hence they generally move out, while the people from somewhere else like the change, otherwise they wouldn't move in.
I lived in inner London for a few years and it was great, but I would have been embarrassed saying to the people that lived in that area their whole life that I was one of them, in the main because I wasnt
Most of your then neighbours, in Kentish Town, would not have been born in London either! Only a small proportion of Londoners are - around 1 in 6.
"The point is that people born and raised in London (real Londoners in my book) feel differently about the speed, and amount of change in their hometown than people who came to live in London as a choice. Asa a rule of thumb, if someone living in London says they love the everchanging communities, vibrant multiculture, the cute little Polish deli etc etc they weren't born and raised in London.. eg Stella Creasy"
As a Londoner born and bred I can say with 100% confidence this is absolute bollocks.
Your last sentence is 100% bollocks
You would never agree with anything I said on point of principle
But if you want to kid yourself that people born and bred in London are as happy with the pace of change as people who arrived to work then go ahead. Lefty doublethink is a common ailment on here
If you spend your time looking for people who feel upset, dispossessed and left behind then you will find them. And there is no doubt that some people born and bred in London are concerned and distressed about the pace of change. But they are not all the people born in London and there is absolutely no evidence that they are close to a majority.
I disagree with you because I was born in London into a family that has been in London for generations and I have never heard anyone that I know even mention the things that you claim "real Londoners" feel. And I have never heard anyone I know dismiss someone's claim to be a Londoner simply because they were not born there. You seem to know a particular type of person. I have no doubt that they are sincere. But they are not everyone. Far from it. And if it comforts you to believe that I am only saying these things because I am a "Lefty" involved in doublethink, please go ahead and believe that. It will not make you right.
Im sure you are right. We all seek to justify our our beliefs and people that say that they don't are kidding themselves.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
Is this thread going to turn into another "I'm more Cockney than you" war between self obsessed faux Londoners? There's loads of good stuff in the News, but they'd rather talk about how they stayed overnight in the Bestest Place in the Entire Universe, and now London counts them as one of it's own.
I just find it rather sad, I've travelled a bit and one of the most common questions asked is 'where are you from', to which I answer, I'm a Londoner but live in Geneva, even after twenty years here I would never say I am 'from Geneva' or a Genevan.
Be honest, being from London is cool and that's why people want to claim it as their own.
Where would you suggest I say I am from? I was born in one city, but never lived there. Lived in a satellite town of my birthplace until I was eight, moved to another city, in which I lived until age 18, then moved again, to another city, where I stayed until I was in my late twenties then moved to London. People have multiple identities - it's nothing to do with being "cool". Strangely, your insular attitudes are more reminiscent of a parochial provincial than a Londoner.
I don't see why you feel the need to try and have digs at me! Im just pointing out that you aren't a Londoner, its not an insult
Id suggest you are from the place you lived until 8 or maybe the one until 18, or maybe youre not really from anywhere.
The stuff on there about tourists on the Tube is something like accurate. The rest is BS, particularly the English as a first language thing, which is borderline xenophobic.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
Oh is Richard Tyndall the arbiter of whats what then?!
Think what you like I guess, but I take it you're not a Londoner anymore because you live up north? A real Londoner is a Londoner wherever they live now.
I've always enjoyed Richard's contribution.
Just like you're the arbiter of what constitutes a Londoner.
As I said, when I lived and worked in London, I considered myself a Londoner, as I loved the city and the opportunities it gave me.
Where else could I see the plays We Will Rock You and Mamma Mia on a daily basis?
Oh look, Im not saying that it is better or worse to be what I define as a Londoner, just that those people have different views on the changing face of London, hence they generally move out, while the people from somewhere else like the change, otherwise they wouldn't move in.
I lived in inner London for a few years and it was great, but I would have been embarrassed saying to the people that lived in that area their whole life that I was one of them, in the main because I wasnt
Most of your then neighbours, in Kentish Town, would not have been born in London either! Only a small proportion of Londoners are - around 1 in 6.
Most people I know, if you asked where they came from, would say 'London' as a short-hand, but would really mean 'Golders Green', or 'Queens Park', or 'Notting Hill'.
I left (South) London permanently at 21, now prefer visiting to living there, but I felt genuinely insulted when an immigrant to London said I wasn't a "real Londoner".
They'd asked me where I was from, and I'd said London, as I'd become used to doing when talking to people in the places I moved to in the West. They told me that a true Londoner would have said "Clapham" or "Hackney", as a true Londoner would be aware of the nuances in identity that exist across the Capital.
The interesting thing I realised about this when I'd calmed down was that when I was living in London I would have answered "Streatham", or "West Norwood", rather than London, because most of the time I would have been talking to other Londoners, and so saying that one was from London would be rather redundant. However, people who have only visited London are unlikely to have ever heard of Wandsworth, or Tooting, and when I talked to non-Londoners I found myself having to explain that Streatham was just south of Brixton "where the riots were", because they were likely to at least have heard of Brixton.
The conclusion I come to about this is that most people are pretty insular, and despite the supposedly vibrant and cosmopolitan nature of London, a city with a reasonable claim to being *the* world city, true Londoners are even more insular than most other people, and quite smug about it.
When I lived in London, north London was almost like a foreign country and one of the attractions of the big wheel on the Thames was that you could just see beyond the edge of the city - to the edges of the known world.
That is a lot closer than most of the other bollocks we have had so far. Who gives a toss whether you are a londoner or not. Keep it to yourself, it is nothing to brag about.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
Oh is Richard Tyndall the arbiter of whats what then?!
Think what you like I guess, but I take it you're not a Londoner anymore because you live up north? A real Londoner is a Londoner wherever they live now.
I've always enjoyed Richard's contribution.
Just like you're the arbiter of what constitutes a Londoner.
As I said, when I lived and worked in London, I considered myself a Londoner, as I loved the city and the opportunities it gave me.
Where else could I see the plays We Will Rock You and Mamma Mia on a daily basis?
Oh look, Im not saying that it is better or worse to be what I define as a Londoner, just that those people have different views on the changing face of London, hence they generally move out, while the people from somewhere else like the change, otherwise they wouldn't move in.
I lived in inner London for a few years and it was great, but I would have been embarrassed saying to the people that lived in that area their whole life that I was one of them, in the main because I wasnt
Most of your then neighbours, in Kentish Town, would not have been born in London either! Only a small proportion of Londoners are - around 1 in 6.
Well only 1 in 6 of them were real Londoners then
The proportion is quite possibly even lower in a transient inner London area like NW5.
"The point is that people born and raised in London (real Londoners in my book) feel differently about the speed, and amount of change in their hometown than people who came to live in London as a choice. Asa a rule of thumb, if someone living in London says they love the everchanging communities, vibrant multiculture, the cute little Polish deli etc etc they weren't born and raised in London.. eg Stella Creasy"
As a Londoner born and bred I can say with 100% confidence this is absolute bollocks.
Your last sentence is 100% bollocks
You would never agree with anything I said on point of principle
But if you want to kid yourself that people born and bred in London are as happy with the pace of change as people who arrived to work then go ahead. Lefty doublethink is a common ailment on here
If you spend your time looking for people who feel upset, dispossessed and left behind then you will find them. And there is no doubt that some people born and bred in London are concerned and distressed about the pace of change. But they are not all the people born in London and there is absolutely no evidence that they are close to a majority.
I disagree with you because I was born in London into a family that has been in London for generations and I have never heard anyone that I know even mention the things that you claim "real Londoners" feel. And I have never heard anyone I know dismiss someone's claim to be a Londoner simply because they were not born there. You seem to know a particular type of person. I have no doubt that they are sincere. But they are not everyone. Far from it. And if it comforts you to believe that I am only saying these things because I am a "Lefty" involved in doublethink, please go ahead and believe that. It will not make you right.
Im sure you are right. We all seek to justify our our beliefs and people that say that they don't are kidding themselves.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
And that is very different to what you were saying before.
"He seems to think that if he stands by one of the four women in his Cabinet – no matter how untenable her position – he will win plaudits from feminists and liberals. They will cheer his loyalty to a woman when she's down, he thinks, and remember it when they cast their vote next year.
He couldn't be more wrong. His support of a woman who made more than a million pound profit from selling a property funded by taxpayers convinces no one of his feminist agenda. It doesn't prove that the PM will promote the cause of women at any cost. It simply shows that David Cameron believes he cannot hold his women ministers to the standards he expects of his male colleagues."
Where would you suggest I say I am from? I was born in one city, but never lived there. Lived in a satellite town of my birthplace until I was eight, moved to another city, in which I lived until age 18, then moved again, to another city, where I stayed until I was in my late twenties then moved to London. People have multiple identities - it's nothing to do with being "cool". Strangely, your insular attitudes are more reminiscent of a parochial provincial than a Londoner.
I don't see why you feel the need to try and have digs at me! Im just pointing out that you aren't a Londoner, its not an insult
Id suggest you are from the place you lived until 8 or maybe the one until 18, or maybe youre not really from anywhere.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
TSE or even Scottish / Scottish
I wanna be Scottish if you chaps vote yes.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
TSE , It is looking more likely every day. Will be exciting times.
What an odd thread. A bunch of people agreeing that another boring London thread would be a bad idea followed by a bazillion comments (approx.) about London.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
Oh is Richard Tyndall the arbiter of whats what then?!
Think what you like I guess, but I take it you're not a Londoner anymore because you live up north? A real Londoner is a Londoner wherever they live now.
I've always enjoyed Richard's contribution.
Just like you're the arbiter of what constitutes a Londoner.
As I said, when I lived and worked in London, I considered myself a Londoner, as I loved the city and the opportunities it gave me.
Where else could I see the plays We Will Rock You and Mamma Mia on a daily basis?
Oh look, Im not saying that it is better or worse to be what I define as a Londoner, just that those people have different views on the changing face of London, hence they generally move out, while the people from somewhere else like the change, otherwise they wouldn't move in.
I lived in inner London for a few years and it was great, but I would have been embarrassed saying to the people that lived in that area their whole life that I was one of them, in the main because I wasnt
Most of your then neighbours, in Kentish Town, would not have been born in London either! Only a small proportion of Londoners are - around 1 in 6.
Well only 1 in 6 of them were real Londoners then
The proportion is quite possibly even lower in a transient inner London area like NW5.
Where does this 1 in 6 statistic come from ? I find it hard to believe.
"The point is that people born and raised in London (real Londoners in my book) feel differently about the speed, and amount of change in their hometown than people who came to live in London as a choice. Asa a rule of thumb, if someone living in London says they love the everchanging communities, vibrant multiculture, the cute little Polish deli etc etc they weren't born and raised in London.. eg Stella Creasy"
As a Londoner born and bred I can say with 100% confidence this is absolute bollocks.
Your last sentence is 100% bollocks
You would never agree with anything I said on point of principle
But if you want to kid yourself that people born and bred in London are as happy with the pace of change as people who arrived to work then go ahead. Lefty doublethink is a common ailment on here
If you spend your time looking for people who feel upset, dispossessed and left behind then you will find them. And there is no doubt that some people born and bred in London are concerned and distressed about the pace of change. But they are not all the people born in London and there is absolutely no evidence that they are close to a majority.
I disagree with you because I was born in London into a family that has been in London for generations and I have never heard anyone that I know even mention the things that you claim "real Londoners" feel. And I have never heard anyone I know dismiss someone's claim to be a Londoner simply because they were not born there. You seem to know a particular type of person. I have no doubt that they are sincere. But they are not everyone. Far from it. And if it comforts you to believe that I am only saying these things because I am a "Lefty" involved in doublethink, please go ahead and believe that. It will not make you right.
Im sure you are right. We all seek to justify our our beliefs and people that say that they don't are kidding themselves.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
And that is very different to what you were saying before.
Who said it was? Its a big city comprised of lots of towns
I guess the point I'm making is that there talking about 'Londoners' is a difficult concept (even if we accept the 'grown up here' requirement) on the basis that there is not a lot in terms of outlook that connects the guy in Richmond-upon-Thames and the guy in Thamesmead.
Most people I know, if you asked where they came from, would say 'London' as a short-hand, but would really mean 'Golders Green', or 'Queens Park', or 'Notting Hill'.
What do you think is the defining characteristic (in terms of attitude and worldview, rather than in terms of longitude and latitude of delivery location) that defines 'a Londoner'?
Born and raised in London, went to school there means you are a Londoner. I would think the worldviews of these people would cover the whole spectrum
So, effectively, it's not possible for anyone who went to a private boarding school (except Harrow) to be a Londoner?
No its possible of course. I have friends who went to Marlborough who were born and raised in Holland Park are 100% Londoners
"The point is that people born and raised in London (real Londoners in my book) feel differently about the speed, and amount of change in their hometown than people who came to live in London as a choice. Asa a rule of thumb, if someone living in London says they love the everchanging communities, vibrant multiculture, the cute little Polish deli etc etc they weren't born and raised in London.. eg Stella Creasy"
As a Londoner born and bred I can say with 100% confidence this is absolute bollocks.
Your last sentence is 100% bollocks
You would never agree with anything I said on point of principle
But if you want to kid yourself that people born and bred in London are as happy with the pace of change as people who arrived to work then go ahead. Lefty doublethink is a common ailment on here
If you spend your time looking for people who feel upset, dispossessed and left behind then you will find them. And there is no doubt that some people born and bred in London are concerned and distressed about the pace of change. But they are not all the people born in London and there is absolutely no evidence that they are close to a majority.
I disagree with you because I was born in London into a family that has been in London for generations and I have never heard anyone that I know even mention the things that you claim "real Londoners" feel. And I have never heard anyone I know dismiss someone's claim to be a Londoner simply because they were not born there. You seem to know a particular type of person. I have no doubt that they are sincere. But they are not everyone. Far from it. And if it comforts you to believe that I am only saying these things because I am a "Lefty" involved in doublethink, please go ahead and believe that. It will not make you right.
Im sure you are right. We all seek to justify our our beliefs and people that say that they don't are kidding themselves.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
Or maybe it's because Hornchurch/Romford is an almost exclusively white British far flung Essexish suburb which such insular attitudes are commonplace? Just a thought. It might not, perhaps, be typical of London as a whole?
Is this thread going to turn into another "I'm more Cockney than you" war between self obsessed faux Londoners? There's loads of good stuff in the News, but they'd rather talk about how they stayed overnight in the Bestest Place in the Entire Universe, and now London counts them as one of it's own.
I just find it rather sad, I've travelled a bit and one of the most common questions asked is 'where are you from', to which I answer, I'm a Londoner but live in Geneva, even after twenty years here I would never say I am 'from Geneva' or a Genevan.
Be honest, being from London is cool and that's why people want to claim it as their own.
One can only say "Sad Bob"
Mad Malcie, sadness is temporary.
LOL, Bob think of Toblerone and clear alpine air rather than dirt and smog , you are "Swiss" now, enjoy it , do a bit of yodelling enjoy. never look back with nostalgia the London you knew is gone, in the 80's it was great but it is full of fannies now.
PS: Why are you not called London-Bob if it is so great, deep down you know you prefer to be Swiss
"The conclusion I come to about this is that most people are pretty insular, and despite the supposedly vibrant and cosmopolitan nature of London, a city with a reasonable claim to being *the* world city, true Londoners are even more insular than most other people, and quite smug about it."
This may well be true and certainly does not depend on whether you were born in London. I always say I am from North London and am very suspicious of anything south of the river.
Anyway, enough of this. I think Mike may well be right.
Sing along with the common people, Sing along and it might just get you through. Laugh along with the common people, Laugh along even though they're laughing at you, And the stupid things that you do. Because you think that poor is cool.
Like a dog lying in a corner, They will bite you and never warn you, Look out,they'll tear your insides out. 'Cause everybody hates a tourist, Especially one who thinks it's all such a laugh, Yeah and the chip stain's grease, Will come out in the bath.
You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go. You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright, Whilst you can only wonder why. Rent a flat above a shop Cut your hair and get a job Smoke some fags and play some pool Pretend you never went to school, But still you'll never get it right 'Cause when you're laid in bed at night And watching roaches climb the wall, If you called your dad he could stop it all Yeah
You'll never live like common people You'll never do what common people do You'll never fail like common people You'll never watch your life slide out of view And then dance and drink and screw Because there's nothing else to do
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
TSE or even Scottish / Scottish
I wanna be Scottish if you chaps vote yes.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
I shall not be churlish in the highly unlikely event of a YES vote and accordingly invite you to come to Auchentennach Castle to be a part of the making of a historic celebration pie !!
You'll be a integral part of Scottish hospitality and I'm sure you'll go down well ....
Is this thread going to turn into another "I'm more Cockney than you" war between self obsessed faux Londoners? There's loads of good stuff in the News, but they'd rather talk about how they stayed overnight in the Bestest Place in the Entire Universe, and now London counts them as one of it's own.
I just find it rather sad, I've travelled a bit and one of the most common questions asked is 'where are you from', to which I answer, I'm a Londoner but live in Geneva, even after twenty years here I would never say I am 'from Geneva' or a Genevan.
Be honest, being from London is cool and that's why people want to claim it as their own.
One can only say "Sad Bob"
Mad Malcie, sadness is temporary.
LOL, Bob think of Toblerone and clear alpine air rather than dirt and smog , you are "Swiss" now, enjoy it , do a bit of yodelling enjoy. never look back with nostalgia the London you knew is gone, in the 80's it was great but it is full of fannies now.
PS: Why are you not called London-Bob if it is so great, deep down you know you prefer to be Swiss
In the 80's when you lived in London and voted for Thatcher's Tory party ? The prime of Malcolmg.
A joint statement released by those who attended the interfaith meeting said: "At a meeting, chaired by the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, the Right Reverend Lorna Hood, representatives of Scotland's diverse faith traditions were united in the view that the contribution of faith to Scottish society should be properly recognised whatever the future holds.
The only mention of religion I want to see in any written constitution is a guarantee of a separation of church from the state, freedom to practice what you like and a freedom from religion...
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
I've been busy this weekend so am only just catching up... I'm fed up with it already.
"The point is that people born and raised in London (real Londoners in my book) feel differently about the speed, and amount of change in their hometown than people who came to live in London as a choice. Asa a rule of thumb, if someone living in London says they love the everchanging communities, vibrant multiculture, the cute little Polish deli etc etc they weren't born and raised in London.. eg Stella Creasy"
As a Londoner born and bred I can say with 100% confidence this is absolute bollocks.
Your last sentence is 100% bollocks
You would never agree with anything I said on point of principle
But if you want to kid yourself that people born and bred in London are as happy with the pace of change as people who arrived to work then go ahead. Lefty doublethink is a common ailment on here
Im sure you are right. We all seek to justify our our beliefs and people that say that they don't are kidding themselves.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
Or maybe it's because Hornchurch/Romford is an almost exclusively white British far flung Essexish suburb which such insular attitudes are commonplace? Just a thought. It might not, perhaps, be typical of London as a whole?
Its not typical of London as a whole, because very few people cant speak English, and most people living here were born in London .
That's my point in the first place, inner London is a transient place full of people who call somewhere else "home", that's why the people moving there don't mind it being changed beyond recognition, and why people born there are unhappy or move away.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
TSE or even Scottish / Scottish
I wanna be Scottish if you chaps vote yes.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
Whenever I hear "re-birth of..." I immediately think of Spinal Tap and their free-form jazz re-birth.
Voting today in Quebec GE , final poll points to a disaster for PQ who called the election in the expectation of a majoritygovernment and instead a Liberal landslide Forum poll PLQ 44 PQ 24 CAQ 23 QS 6 Others 3
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
If you find discussions about identity embarrassing perhaps you shouldn't go on a politics blog?
Voting today in Quebec GE , final poll points to a disaster for PQ who called the election in the expectation of a majoritygovernment and instead a Liberal landslide Forum poll PLQ 44 PQ 24 CAQ 23 QS 6 Others 3
Can anyone explain, given the polling trends, the incumbent govt record in Euro Elections etc, why Lads 4/6 about UKIP to bt the Conservatives in the Euro Votes isn't one of the best bets of all time?
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
If you find discussions about identity embarrassing perhaps you shouldn't go on a politics blog?
@Bobafett Do you think our bet with Paddy Power over the 650 seats is in potential trouble if the Scots vote yes ?
Can anyone explain, given the polling trends, the incumbent govt record in Euro Elections etc, why Lads 4/6 about UKIP to bt the Conservatives in the Euro Votes isn't one of the best bets of all time?
I think what isam is struggling to say is that a small percentage of poor white British people rooted in the shabbier parts of London - essentially the cockneys, the indigenous WWC Londoners - are unhappy about foreigners moving in to THEIR particular bits of London, and acting like they own the place.
And I empathise with that. Most settled communities would feel the same.
But given that these Londoners live in a city founded by Italians, rebuilt by Germans, affirmed by Danes, ennobled by Normans, a city which has always depended on a constant turnover of incomers and outgoers, a city which recently became the first conurbation in the world where 300 languages are spoken, the opinions of a small minority, however poignant and understandable, are irrelevant to the wider debate.
Moroever, by the definition of isam et al, Dick Whittington, the most famous Londoner in history, is not a Londoner. Yet of course he is the QUINTESSENTIAL Londoner, the most iconic Londoner in history, as he tells the quintessential London story - poor boy moves to big city, makes good.
NOW can we move on?
What, because you've had the last word?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
Indeed. It's more about being a state of mind, an emotional attachment and the intertwining of your life with the rest of the community.
Who said it was? Its a big city comprised of lots of towns
I guess the point I'm making is that there talking about 'Londoners' is a difficult concept (even if we accept the 'grown up here' requirement) on the basis that there is not a lot in terms of outlook that connects the guy in Richmond-upon-Thames and the guy in Thamesmead.
Most people I know, if you asked where they came from, would say 'London' as a short-hand, but would really mean 'Golders Green', or 'Queens Park', or 'Notting Hill'.
What do you think is the defining characteristic (in terms of attitude and worldview, rather than in terms of longitude and latitude of delivery location) that defines 'a Londoner'?
Born and raised in London, went to school there means you are a Londoner. I would think the worldviews of these people would cover the whole spectrum
So, effectively, it's not possible for anyone who went to a private boarding school (except Harrow) to be a Londoner?
No its possible of course. I have friends who went to Marlborough who were born and raised in Holland Park are 100% Londoners
So going to school there is not a criteria?
Well going to boarding school and coming back in the holidays to your family home in London is different to having gone to a comprehensive in Manchester, lived in Manchester and come to London for the first time at 18.
Put it this way to avoid confusion...
In my book, people who cannot call themselves Londoners are those who weren't born there, didn't live there as a child, and didn't go to school there
Well, that's your book. You still haven't said why you think it matters if someone who lives in London calls themselves a Londoner, even if they don't match your strict criteria?
Surely it's a good thing that they want to belong?
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
Maybe we could have a whip round and pay Morris Dancer to give us a thousand words on differential front end grip, might be a bit more interesting.
Anyway, a true Londoner can be easily detected, they expect their pies to be served upside down in the the liquor and consume them with lots of vinegar (stewed eels with your pie are optional).
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
If you find discussions about identity embarrassing perhaps you shouldn't go on a politics blog?
You're definitely a Londoner, Bobajob, you exhibit all the traits.
Who said it was? Its a big city comprised of lots of towns
I guess the point I'm making is that there talking about 'Londoners' is a difficult concept (even if we accept the 'grown up here' requirement) on the basis that there is not a lot in terms of outlook that connects the guy in Richmond-upon-Thames and the guy in Thamesmead.
Most people I know, if you asked where they came from, would say 'London' as a short-hand, but would really mean 'Golders Green', or 'Queens Park', or 'Notting Hill'.
What do you think is the defining characteristic (in terms of attitude and worldview, rather than in terms of longitude and latitude of delivery location) that defines 'a Londoner'?
Born and raised in London, went to school there means you are a Londoner. I would think the worldviews of these people would cover the whole spectrum
So, effectively, it's not possible for anyone who went to a private boarding school (except Harrow) to be a Londoner?
No its possible of course. I have friends who went to Marlborough who were born and raised in Holland Park are 100% Londoners
So going to school there is not a criteria?
Well going to boarding school and coming back in the holidays to your family home in London is different to having gone to a comprehensive in Manchester, lived in Manchester and come to London for the first time at 18.
Put it this way to avoid confusion...
In my book, people who cannot call themselves Londoners are those who weren't born there, didn't live there as a child, and didn't go to school there
Well, that's your book. You still haven't said why you think it matters if someone who lives in London calls themselves a Londoner, even if they don't match your strict criteria?
Surely it's a good thing that they want to belong?
Yes it is a good thing. My whole point though was to distinguish between the people who have moved into London as adults, having been brought up elsewhere, who embrace the fast pace of change and those that were born and bred in London, who tend to want to get out because they don't like the changes to the place that in their heart they call home
Please take quarter of an hour to watch this. David Aaronavitch seems to speak for the people who disagree with me on here. The people in the audience, particularly the guy at 7:22 seem to sum up how most people I know that live in the area think
The lady asking the question is an ex Labour activist who has defected to UKIP
That's an interesting article, particular the following which, if true, rather shoots down several arguments made on here:
After the Commissioner estimated that she had claimed £45,000 too much, Miller finally found documents showing that her actual mortgage payments were higher, and so the amount overclaimed was lower. In the end the Commissioner and Kevin Barron, the Labour chair of the Standards Committee, were both happy with the £5,800 estimate.
The more this goes on, the more it seems like a media-driven witch-hunt.
As someone who lived and worked in London for nearly five years, I considered myself a Londoner after a while.
Richard Tyndall and I had a very illuminating chat last year, about what it means to be English/British, and he was right when, and I paraphrase, it doesn't, matter what your birth certificate or passport says, it's all about your state of mind.
As he said, if you embrace and love the country, then you're British/English, same applies to London and being a Londoner.
TSE or even Scottish / Scottish
I wanna be Scottish if you chaps vote yes.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
Whenever I hear "re-birth of..." I immediately think of Spinal Tap and their free-form jazz re-birth.
Or is it just me?
Not just you, although a subtle music reference by moi? Never
To get away from the Smoke for a moment, SeanT gets a vigorous quoting in this Conhome piece to which I'm sure he'll have no objection, though he may disagree with the conclusion.
'But perhaps it’s the Conservative Party that’s in denial. It’s not forty seats we’d be losing in the event of a YES vote, but our country – and yet we’re all going about our business as if this wasn’t a very real and imminent possibility.
Should things go the wrong way in September, the shock to the Conservative psyche would be immense. Wherever there’s a state – any state – the parties of the left will always have a purpose, which is to make the state bigger. But conservative parties are rooted in specific circumstances, particular traditions – if that vital context disappears then so does our purpose. What’s the point of the Conservative and Unionist Party without a Union?
Certainly, the Prime Minister who lost Britain would come under immediate and entirely justified pressure to resign. There’d also be a wider blame game – and, with equal justification, a great deal of the blame will attach to the Thatcher years, when the Scottish people were permanently alienated by the opponents of devolution and proponents of the Poll Tax.
Then, while we tore ourselves apart over the history, there’d be the small matter of negotiating a new constitutional settlement. Good luck to whoever has the job of holding the party together on that one.'
I think what isam is struggling to say is that a small percentage of poor white British people rooted in the shabbier parts of London - essentially the cockneys, the indigenous WWC Londoners - are unhappy about foreigners moving in to THEIR particular bits of London, and acting like they own the place.
NOW can we move on?
What, because you've had the last word?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
Deary me. I was trying to spare you further embarrassment, and the rest of the site more boring debate.
Tell you what, if you want to consider yourself The Only Real Londoner, and everyone else a horrible dusky interloper, including me, you go ahead. Knock yerself out with a frozen eel pie. It doesn't matter. I can tell this is something emotional for you, hence your overwrought reactions.
But be thankful that most Londoners do not share your antique attitudes, be thankful that most Londoners - like me - are very welcoming to any foreigners who want to come here and work hard, and we are happy to call them Londoners, as it this embracing, inviting, come-inside-and-join-the-party attitude which makes London the most successful city in Europe, perhaps the world: a tumultuous, dynamic, immigrant city which pays for the rest of the country with its taxes.
You've managed to miss the whole point, well done.
I have never said I was a Londoner, I am from Essex/London borders and would say I was from Essex if asked.
You sound like David Cameron or any other liberal lefty
If that's a reference to Rome I think you're wrong. Can't recall the chap, perhaps it was Tacitus, or referred to in Philip Matyszak's Gladiator Unofficial Manual, but I do remember reading it was there (Llyn Din, or similar) when the Romans arrived.
Mr. Llama, I quite agree.
In related news, it was interesting that Williams and Ferrari seemed to suffer more tyre wear and had to do 3 stops rather than 2.
Is this thread going to turn into another "I'm more Cockney than you" war between self obsessed faux Londoners? There's loads of good stuff in the News, but they'd rather talk about how they stayed overnight in the Bestest Place in the Entire Universe, and now London counts them as one of it's own.
I just find it rather sad, I've travelled a bit and one of the most common questions asked is 'where are you from', to which I answer, I'm a Londoner but live in Geneva, even after twenty years here I would never say I am 'from Geneva' or a Genevan.
Be honest, being from London is cool and that's why people want to claim it as their own.
One can only say "Sad Bob"
Mad Malcie, sadness is temporary.
LOL, Bob think of Toblerone and clear alpine air rather than dirt and smog , you are "Swiss" now, enjoy it , do a bit of yodelling enjoy. never look back with nostalgia the London you knew is gone, in the 80's it was great but it is full of fannies now.
PS: Why are you not called London-Bob if it is so great, deep down you know you prefer to be Swiss
In the 80's when you lived in London and voted for Thatcher's Tory party ? The prime of Malcolmg.
Monica, I only voted for her the first time, in the carefree 70's when life was great. I did not live in London in the 80's just stayed there for large parts of each year in hotels on Kensington High Street mainly.
I think what isam is struggling to say is that a small percentage of poor white British people rooted in the shabbier parts of London - essentially the cockneys, the indigenous WWC Londoners - are unhappy about foreigners moving in to THEIR particular bits of London, and acting like they own the place.
And I empathise with that. Most settled communities would feel the same.
But given that these Londoners live in a city founded by Italians, rebuilt by Germans, affirmed by Danes, ennobled by Normans, a city which has always depended on a constant turnover of incomers and outgoers, a city which recently became the first conurbation in the world where 300 languages are spoken, the opinions of a small minority, however poignant and understandable, are irrelevant to the wider debate.
Moroever, by the definition of isam et al, Dick Whittington, the most famous Londoner in history, is not a Londoner. Yet of course he is the QUINTESSENTIAL Londoner, the most iconic Londoner in history, as he tells the quintessential London story - poor boy moves to big city, makes good.
NOW can we move on?
What, because you've had the last word?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
Londoners, those chirpy chappies that keep the capital quirky for us provincials to come up all agog for a visit now and again. Meanwhile, the majestic Norman architecture, cobbled streets and lazy river, nestled away on the bump, immune to through traffic, isolated and proud make Norwich the perfect city in which to wait for the revolution.
Populus is interesting the disgust of the electorate over Millergate is obvious. A slight increase in the Tory vote. If she'd cooked a child and eaten it's still functioning brain we'd be looking at a landslide.
3 point lead for Labour at vote shares for them and Con similar to 2005. Let's imagine it runs that way. 2005 is not really a guide as it was Labour government defence with incumbency. Opposite way this time. I think we'd be looking at something from Lab 10 short to a Majoresque majority.
Right now I favour a result of Con 35, Lab 34, Lib Dem 13, UKIP 11, Others incl Nats and NI 7 Giving us somewhere from neck and neck to Lab 25 short, UKIP on maybe 2 seats, Lab possible much further short if the SNP pull a yes and a surge in the GE on the back.
Crossover, if it happens prior to the campaign, at conference.
Surely THIS MAN is the DEFINITION of a quintessential Londoner.
Born in Camden, a middle class Jewish boy of immigrant stock who inspires all with his moderate riches to slightly more riches tale.
Ladies and Gentlemen I present you MR ED MILIBAND
Nah, Boris is the quintessential Londoner.
Born overseas to British parents, has some Turkish blood, went to Eton and Oxford.
Popular and loved across the country.
I am sure the next time/if you ever stand on the Kop, you will be discussing with your fellow kopites, especially the scouse* ones how much loved old Boris is.
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
Anyway, a true Londoner can be easily detected, they expect their pies to be served upside down in the the liquor and consume them with lots of vinegar (stewed eels with your pie are optional).
Fascinating as I have found this somewhat rather bizarre running dispute on what makes a Londoner a Londoner - on this matter Sir, I beg to differ.
Surely THIS MAN is the DEFINITION of a quintessential Londoner.
Born in Camden, a middle class Jewish boy of immigrant stock who inspires all with his moderate riches to slightly more riches tale.
Ladies and Gentlemen I present you MR ED MILIBAND
Nah, Boris is the quintessential Londoner.
Born overseas to British parents, has some Turkish blood, went to Eton and Oxford.
Popular and loved across the country.
I am sure the next time/if you ever stand on the Kop, you will be discussing with your fellow kopites, especially the scouse* ones how much loved old Boris is.
*That is if you can find any scouse ones.
He's loved in Liverpool, he ended up on the parliamentary group for Liverpool.
I'll never forget the 2005 League Cup final, which we lost to Chelsea, and the Chelsea fans were chanting "There's only one Boris Johnson"
I think what isam is struggling to say is that a small percentage of poor white British people rooted in the shabbier parts of London - essentially the cockneys, the indigenous WWC Londoners - are unhappy about foreigners moving in to THEIR particular bits of London, and acting like they own the place.
And I empathise with that. Most settled communities would feel the same.
But given that these Londoners live in a city founded by Italians, rebuilt by Germans, affirmed by Danes, ennobled by Normans, a city which has always depended on a constant turnover of incomers and outgoers, a city which recently became the first conurbation in the world where 300 languages are spoken, the opinions of a small minority, however poignant and understandable, are irrelevant to the wider debate.
Moroever, by the definition of isam et al, Dick Whittington, the most famous Londoner in history, is not a Londoner. Yet of course he is the QUINTESSENTIAL Londoner, the most iconic Londoner in history, as he tells the quintessential London story - poor boy moves to big city, makes good.
NOW can we move on?
What, because you've had the last word?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
I've lived in Merseyside for more than twenty years ... does that make me a Scouser? I don't think so. Or even a plastic Scouser? I hope not.
I was in the Ship & Mitre in Liverpool last year and a "local" came over and asked. "Where are you from?" (they do that in Liverpool). I explained my Liverpool postcode. "No," he said. "Where are you really from?"
On the last train back from Lime Street a few years ago, I was enjoying some banter with a few United supporters until the rest of the carriage took umbrage at the Mancs on my behalf. I had to stop them attacking the three United supporters (they don't like Mancs much, and United supporters even less).
Not the sort of thing that would happen in cosmopolitan London, or would it?
If that's a reference to Rome I think you're wrong. Can't recall the chap, perhaps it was Tacitus, or referred to in Philip Matyszak's Gladiator Unofficial Manual, but I do remember reading it was there (Llyn Din, or similar) when the Romans arrived.
Mr. Llama, I quite agree.
In related news, it was interesting that Williams and Ferrari seemed to suffer more tyre wear and had to do 3 stops rather than 2.
I think SeanT was referring to London, which was basically founded as a large settlement by the Romans on what was the lowest fording point on the Thames, and the furthest upstream large seagoing ships could reach. As it was the lowest fording point, there was doubtless small habitation there long before that. Due to the river changing over the millennia, I now think the lowest fording point's Wallingford or some such.
ISTR an MP once tried to walk across the Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament at low tide?
Whilst we are (still) on the topic of London, can I recommend Ben Aaronovich's brilliant 'Rivers of London' series of books? A genuinely inventive and funny look at an alternative London.
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
Anyway, a true Londoner can be easily detected, they expect their pies to be served upside down in the the liquor and consume them with lots of vinegar (stewed eels with your pie are optional).
Fascinating as I have found this somewhat rather bizarre running dispute on what makes a Londoner a Londoner - on this matter Sir, I beg to differ.
Why don't we all just agree Yorkshire is the best place in the country.
I mean, the Garden of Eden was located in North Yorkshire.
Surely THIS MAN is the DEFINITION of a quintessential Londoner.
Born in Camden, a middle class Jewish boy of immigrant stock who inspires all with his moderate riches to slightly more riches tale.
Ladies and Gentlemen I present you MR ED MILIBAND
Nah, Boris is the quintessential Londoner.
Born overseas to British parents, has some Turkish blood, went to Eton and Oxford.
Popular and loved across the country.
I am sure the next time/if you ever stand on the Kop, you will be discussing with your fellow kopites, especially the scouse* ones how much loved old Boris is.
*That is if you can find any scouse ones.
Anfield is packed with Scousers. As anybody who has ever been would attest to.
I've lived in Merseyside for more than twenty years ... does that make me a Scouser? I don't think so. Or even a plastic Scouser? I hope not.
I was in the Ship & Mitre in Liverpool last year and a "local" came over and asked. "Where are you from?" (they do that in Liverpool). I explained my Liverpool postcode. "No," he said. "Where are you really from?"
On the last train back from Lime Street a few years ago, I was enjoying some banter with a few United supporters until the rest of the carriage took umbrage at the Mancs on my behalf. I had to stop them attacking the three United supporters (they don't like Mancs much, and United supporters even less).
Not the sort of thing that would happen in cosmopolitan London, or would it?
I married a plastic Scouser, well the Birkenhead variety.
I think what isam is struggling to say is that a small percentage of poor white British people rooted in the shabbier parts of London - essentially the cockneys, the indigenous WWC Londoners - are unhappy about foreigners moving in to THEIR particular bits of London, and acting like they own the place.
NOW can we move on?
What, because you've had the last word?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
Deary me. I was trying to spare you further embarrassment, and the rest of the site more boring debate.
Tell you what, if you want to consider yourself The Only Real Londoner, and everyone else a horrible dusky interloper, including me, you go ahead. Knock yerself out with a frozen eel pie. It doesn't matter. I can tell this is something emotional for you, hence your overwrought reactions.
But be thankful that most Londoners do not share your antique attitudes, be thankful that most Londoners - like me - are very welcoming to any foreigners who want to come here and work hard, and we are happy to call them Londoners, as it this embracing, inviting, come-inside-and-join-the-party attitude which makes London the most successful city in Europe, perhaps the world: a tumultuous, dynamic, immigrant city which pays for the rest of the country with its taxes.
You've managed to miss the whole point, well done.
I have never said I was a Londoner, I am from Essex/London borders and would say I was from Essex if asked.
You sound like David Cameron or any other liberal lefty
If that's a reference to Rome I think you're wrong. Can't recall the chap, perhaps it was Tacitus, or referred to in Philip Matyszak's Gladiator Unofficial Manual, but I do remember reading it was there (Llyn Din, or similar) when the Romans arrived.
Mr. Llama, I quite agree.
In related news, it was interesting that Williams and Ferrari seemed to suffer more tyre wear and had to do 3 stops rather than 2.
No. Wrong. London was founded by Italians - Romans. Prior to that there were a few scattered Celtic farmsteads (yes, the Celts, horrible immigrants from Iron Age Europe) - but nothing remotely comparable with a village or town, let alone a city.
"However, despite intensive excavations, archaeologists have found no evidence of a prehistoric major settlement in the area. There have been scattered prehistoric finds, evidence of farming, burial and traces of habitation, but nothing more substantial. It is now considered unlikely that a pre-Roman city existed, but as some of the Roman city remains unexcavated, it is still just possible that some settlement may yet be discovered."
To get away from the Smoke for a moment, SeanT gets a vigorous quoting in this Conhome piece to which I'm sure he'll have no objection, though he may disagree with the conclusion.
'But perhaps it’s the Conservative Party that’s in denial. It’s not forty seats we’d be losing in the event of a YES vote, but our country – and yet we’re all going about our business as if this wasn’t a very real and imminent possibility.
Should things go the wrong way in September, the shock to the Conservative psyche would be immense. Wherever there’s a state – any state – the parties of the left will always have a purpose, which is to make the state bigger. But conservative parties are rooted in specific circumstances, particular traditions – if that vital context disappears then so does our purpose. What’s the point of the Conservative and Unionist Party without a Union?
Certainly, the Prime Minister who lost Britain would come under immediate and entirely justified pressure to resign. There’d also be a wider blame game – and, with equal justification, a great deal of the blame will attach to the Thatcher years, when the Scottish people were permanently alienated by the opponents of devolution and proponents of the Poll Tax.
Then, while we tore ourselves apart over the history, there’d be the small matter of negotiating a new constitutional settlement. Good luck to whoever has the job of holding the party together on that one.'
Always nice to be quoted, and yes I think he's wrong. The Tories would swiftly regroup as an England only party, because they already are. They'd be closer to UKIP, indeed in the near future I foresee an electoral pact, if UKIP remain popular. Labour would be left reeling for many years.
However where he's right is Cameron. Cameron would get the blame for losing the union and not offering Devomax, etc. The question is whether he would resign or limp on to 2015.
I reckon he's the sort of upright chap (or perceives himself thus) who would resign.
At this rate, you'll be invited onto Question Time before too long.
I've never said this before, but the past few days have probably been the low point on here. Self obsessed Mockneys, competing to see just how many jellied eels they can eat won't encourage many new posters to Britain's Most Read Political Blog. It is genuinely embarrassing.
Anyway, a true Londoner can be easily detected, they expect their pies to be served upside down in the the liquor and consume them with lots of vinegar (stewed eels with your pie are optional).
Fascinating as I have found this somewhat rather bizarre running dispute on what makes a Londoner a Londoner - on this matter Sir, I beg to differ.
Why don't we all just agree Yorkshire is the best place in the country.
I mean, the Garden of Eden was located in North Yorkshire.
No, the Garden of Eden is hidden in a secret part of the Norfolk Broads. Yorkshire is a place it takes ages to get through on the way to Scotland.
Comments
They'd asked me where I was from, and I'd said London, as I'd become used to doing when talking to people in the places I moved to in the West. They told me that a true Londoner would have said "Clapham" or "Hackney", as a true Londoner would be aware of the nuances in identity that exist across the Capital.
The interesting thing I realised about this when I'd calmed down was that when I was living in London I would have answered "Streatham", or "West Norwood", rather than London, because most of the time I would have been talking to other Londoners, and so saying that one was from London would be rather redundant. However, people who have only visited London are unlikely to have ever heard of Wandsworth, or Tooting, and when I talked to non-Londoners I found myself having to explain that Streatham was just south of Brixton "where the riots were", because they were likely to at least have heard of Brixton.
The conclusion I come to about this is that most people are pretty insular, and despite the supposedly vibrant and cosmopolitan nature of London, a city with a reasonable claim to being *the* world city, true Londoners are even more insular than most other people, and quite smug about it.
When I lived in London, north London was almost like a foreign country and one of the attractions of the big wheel on the Thames was that you could just see beyond the edge of the city - to the edges of the known world.
Will be exciting to be at the (re)birth of a new nation.
Most of your then neighbours in Kentish Town would not have been born in London! Only 1 in 6 Londoneslr Most of your then neighbours, in Kentish Town, would not have been born in London either! Only a small proportion of Londoners are - around 1 in 6.
I was born in Greater London to a family that has lived in London for generations, and barely know anyone that doesn't feel the way I have described. Maybe its because I still live there now, and that area has become the place where East Londoners choose to live that I hear it and you don't.
But she does come on like a dream, peaches and cream and has lips like strawberry wine.
Id suggest you are from the place you lived until 8 or maybe the one until 18, or maybe youre not really from anywhere.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100266632/maria-miller-proves-what-david-cameron-really-thinks-of-women/
"He seems to think that if he stands by one of the four women in his Cabinet – no matter how untenable her position – he will win plaudits from feminists and liberals. They will cheer his loyalty to a woman when she's down, he thinks, and remember it when they cast their vote next year.
He couldn't be more wrong. His support of a woman who made more than a million pound profit from selling a property funded by taxpayers convinces no one of his feminist agenda. It doesn't prove that the PM will promote the cause of women at any cost. It simply shows that David Cameron believes he cannot hold his women ministers to the standards he expects of his male colleagues."
Look! Now you've made me do it!
You should be careful.
PS: Why are you not called London-Bob if it is so great, deep down you know you prefer to be Swiss
This may well be true and certainly does not depend on whether you were born in London. I always say I am from North London and am very suspicious of anything south of the river.
Anyway, enough of this. I think Mike may well be right.
Sing along with the common people,
Sing along and it might just get you through.
Laugh along with the common people,
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you,
And the stupid things that you do.
Because you think that poor is cool.
Like a dog lying in a corner,
They will bite you and never warn you,
Look out,they'll tear your insides out.
'Cause everybody hates a tourist,
Especially one who thinks it's all such a laugh,
Yeah and the chip stain's grease,
Will come out in the bath.
You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go.
You are amazed that they exist
And they burn so bright,
Whilst you can only wonder why.
Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school,
But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
And watching roaches climb the wall,
If you called your dad he could stop it all
Yeah
You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And then dance and drink and screw
Because there's nothing else to do
http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/79277/
You'll be a integral part of Scottish hospitality and I'm sure you'll go down well ....
Can we now spend two days defining "in the country"?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/07/us-eu-election-commission-idUSBREA3604C20140407?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=992637
The Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church have joined forces with other major religious and faith groups to "stake a claim" for recognition in a written constitution. The only mention of religion I want to see in any written constitution is a guarantee of a separation of church from the state, freedom to practice what you like and a freedom from religion...
That's my point in the first place, inner London is a transient place full of people who call somewhere else "home", that's why the people moving there don't mind it being changed beyond recognition, and why people born there are unhappy or move away.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2597454/We-Residents-deprived-borough-speak-predicted-Britain-need-Manchester-absorb-immigration.html
Or is it just me?
Forum poll PLQ 44 PQ 24 CAQ 23 QS 6 Others 3
'I know, for us non-cockney/non-mockney/non-wanabees it's erm, how can I put it.....can we talk about the shape of cornflakes instead?'
Or Scousers?
Do you have a decent link for live results ?
Can anyone explain, given the polling trends, the incumbent govt record in Euro Elections etc, why Lads 4/6 about UKIP to bt the Conservatives in the Euro Votes isn't one of the best bets of all time?
I never meant to insult you by saying you weren't a Londoner, that you took it as an insult and had to started throwing "chav" etc around and boasting of how rich you are etc is proof you aren't a Londoner. If you were you'd have just said "I was born and bred here" and that would have been the end of it.
But good to see that you think the fact that less than half of Londoners are white British, that 22% don't speak English as a first language are good things.. makes my point for me.
Dick Whittington the most famous Londoner in History? Says who? And by my definition he could be a Londoner having come there as a boy
Oscar Pistorius showing Maria Miller how to do apology.
Surely it's a good thing that they want to belong?
"I lost a $2 bet 65 years ago and have spent about $3 million trying to get it back."
Anyway, a true Londoner can be easily detected, they expect their pies to be served upside down in the the liquor and consume them with lots of vinegar (stewed eels with your pie are optional).
Maybe she should model it on Ed balls apology for crashing the economy?
Oh, wait...
Please take quarter of an hour to watch this. David Aaronavitch seems to speak for the people who disagree with me on here. The people in the audience, particularly the guy at 7:22 seem to sum up how most people I know that live in the area think
The lady asking the question is an ex Labour activist who has defected to UKIP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK3JAL3hKRo
.
Born in Camden, a middle class Jewish boy of immigrant stock who inspires all with his moderate riches to slightly more riches tale.
Ladies and Gentlemen I present you MR ED MILIBAND
Born overseas to British parents, has some Turkish blood, went to Eton and Oxford.
Popular and loved across the country.
'But perhaps it’s the Conservative Party that’s in denial. It’s not forty seats we’d be losing in the event of a YES vote, but our country – and yet we’re all going about our business as if this wasn’t a very real and imminent possibility.
Should things go the wrong way in September, the shock to the Conservative psyche would be immense. Wherever there’s a state – any state – the parties of the left will always have a purpose, which is to make the state bigger. But conservative parties are rooted in specific circumstances, particular traditions – if that vital context disappears then so does our purpose. What’s the point of the Conservative and Unionist Party without a Union?
Certainly, the Prime Minister who lost Britain would come under immediate and entirely justified pressure to resign. There’d also be a wider blame game – and, with equal justification, a great deal of the blame will attach to the Thatcher years, when the Scottish people were permanently alienated by the opponents of devolution and proponents of the Poll Tax.
Then, while we tore ourselves apart over the history, there’d be the small matter of negotiating a new constitutional settlement. Good luck to whoever has the job of holding the party together on that one.'
http://tinyurl.com/nt9en9h
I have never said I was a Londoner, I am from Essex/London borders and would say I was from Essex if asked.
You sound like David Cameron or any other liberal lefty
If that's a reference to Rome I think you're wrong. Can't recall the chap, perhaps it was Tacitus, or referred to in Philip Matyszak's Gladiator Unofficial Manual, but I do remember reading it was there (Llyn Din, or similar) when the Romans arrived.
Mr. Llama, I quite agree.
In related news, it was interesting that Williams and Ferrari seemed to suffer more tyre wear and had to do 3 stops rather than 2.
Can anyone think of Labour politicians' apologies to parliament which are effusive and long? Jack Dromey's was 56 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWXDLXxYorg
Was that "inadequate to the point of being contemptuous" ?
The stench is still coming from Labour though.
Populus is interesting the disgust of the electorate over Millergate is obvious. A slight increase in the Tory vote. If she'd cooked a child and eaten it's still functioning brain we'd be looking at a landslide.
3 point lead for Labour at vote shares for them and Con similar to 2005. Let's imagine it runs that way. 2005 is not really a guide as it was Labour government defence with incumbency. Opposite way this time. I think we'd be looking at something from Lab 10 short to a Majoresque majority.
Right now I favour a result of Con 35, Lab 34, Lib Dem 13, UKIP 11, Others incl Nats and NI 7
Giving us somewhere from neck and neck to Lab 25 short, UKIP on maybe 2 seats, Lab possible much further short if the SNP pull a yes and a surge in the GE on the back.
Crossover, if it happens prior to the campaign, at conference.
*That is if you can find any scouse ones.
The problems are that: (1) sometimes they do catch witches; (2) no-one else has devised a way for successfully catching witches.
I'll never forget the 2005 League Cup final, which we lost to Chelsea, and the Chelsea fans were chanting "There's only one Boris Johnson"
I've lived in Merseyside for more than twenty years ... does that make me a Scouser? I don't think so. Or even a plastic Scouser? I hope not.
I was in the Ship & Mitre in Liverpool last year and a "local" came over and asked. "Where are you from?" (they do that in Liverpool). I explained my Liverpool postcode. "No," he said. "Where are you really from?"
On the last train back from Lime Street a few years ago, I was enjoying some banter with a few United supporters until the rest of the carriage took umbrage at the Mancs on my behalf. I had to stop them attacking the three United supporters (they don't like Mancs much, and United supporters even less).
Not the sort of thing that would happen in cosmopolitan London, or would it?
ISTR an MP once tried to walk across the Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament at low tide?
Whilst we are (still) on the topic of London, can I recommend Ben Aaronovich's brilliant 'Rivers of London' series of books? A genuinely inventive and funny look at an alternative London.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_London_(novel)
I mean, the Garden of Eden was located in North Yorkshire.
As for Romans being Italians: that's a shade anachronistic. Italia was not the identity of Romans, they were defined by the city.
Mr. Eagles, quite so. After all, Constantine the Great was a Yorkshireman.
"Anfield is packed with Scousers. As anybody who has ever been would attest to."
To be fair to them, that's right. He may be getting confused with Old Trafford.