BBC News has been covering up child abuse for years - as long as you're a BBC employee.
Worryingly, the photo that shows Broadcasting House in my link has Prospero and Ariel by Eric Gill (a now known child abuser) on the front. The young boy is showing his genitals. So, I think I'm right to be suspicious.
Oh dear. I see there's someone else I need to send the tinfoil-hat making instructions to.
Thanks for the offer.
Perhaps you'd like to expand your defence of the BBC, rather than giving pithy one-liners?
I criticise the BBC frequently, but also say I get good value from the licence fee, even if the licence fee model is unsustainable in the long term. That position seems to upset both the BBC-haters and the BBC-lovers on here.
There is plenty of ground on which the current BBC can be criticised. Trying to make something out of Gill's sculptures from 80 years ago seems rather strange.
What do you consider to qualify someone as a Londoner?
Someone born in or who went to school in London
Seems a very, very narrow definition. Do you include the Essex suburbs or just postal London?
Not really very narrow. If you were born in Manchester and come to London at 18 you're not a Londoner
Essex suburbs would be a stretch maybe, but wouldn't be outrageous to say they were a Londone if they lived nr a tube station I guess
.
I would say a good definition of a Londoner is someone who knows that Londoners are created overnight, as soon as they start living in London - i.e. my definition upthread.
Anyone who denies this is NOT a Londoner. e.g. isam?
Wouldn't call myself a Londoner no. Despite living my whole life under London council/mayoral laws, as I live on the outskirts in zone 6
Wouldn't call you one either, or anyone else that wasnt raised in London. It's not an insult to say someone isn't a Londoner !
No it's not an insult no. But that all said nor does it make much sense, for the reasons we have stated. It's not an insular place. Where you live may be however, which probably informs your definition.
You're not a Londoner, however much you'd like to be
Not by your definition, no.
Nor by any logical definition.
The other is complete rubbish for the reasons I have explained.
Haha he is so desperate to be a Londoner it's excrutiating! How embarrassing
What you define me as is meaningless. I tell people I'm "from Lomdon" if asked, I never introduce myself as a Londoner. I am merely querying why you seek to create a narrow definition - no need to be childish.
I'm not being childish, I am just pointing out that there is a difference, often a very big difference in how they think of London, between someone brought up outside of London who now lives there, and someone who was born and raised in London.
And one is a Londoner for life and the other is someone who lives in London at the moment
As I say, and I know you thought you were catching me out earlier with the Essex suburbs thing, I'm not really a Londoner either
Please let Maria Miller stay for as long as possible. Everyone loves a bit of BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING :-)
The rightwing press in this country I despair at,they part of the problem that is giving miliband keys to no 10,the leftwing press are united in wanting a labour government,example -
Tomorrow's Independent front page: 'Miliband to the rescue of the middle classes' http://bit.ly/1e4fnBQ
Pfft. You can hardly claim that Ed Miliband is given an easy ride by the press. He is a national laughing stock. Even leftwing papers mock him.
I'm afraid Maria Miller is Tory self harm. That ridiculously terse apology. Tut.
Besides, if Miliband wins it will be thanks to the electoral system, not the media.
I despair at the crap rightwing press,even when miliband gets the criticism of the so called tory papers,it backfires like the attack on his father 'The man who hated britain' I agree with you on miller but part of the attack on her by certain papers is for me is leveson pay back time.
A small part maybe but the papers will always go big on scandals like expenses. What much of the press don't seem to get is they are in precisely the same boat as MPs for the same amusing reasons. Just as MPs are incapable of learning from past mistakes so are the papers. Both are caught in a death spiral on expenses and revolting press behaviour for the very simple reason that they just can't help themselves. The PCC is as pointless and impotent as IPSA in saving them from their own stupidity. Hence the inevitability of the next round of scandals on both sides.
Cameron has screwed up big time over Miller although I suspect the standards she's being judged by would snare many more MP'S - Balls and Cooper to name but two.
And yet people like Richad Nabavi seem to think it's perfectly reasonable for them to be judged by a committee of MPs, who can overrule the impartial independent body.
I've been doing other things, so maybe I missed your reply to out exchange on Friday - did you ever actually get round to actually reading the Committee's arguments, having admitted that you had reached your verdict without bothering to do so?
Oh, and by the way, I never said it was reasonable for a committee of MPs to decide the issue. That doesn't alter the fact this committee appears to be objectively correct in the conclusion it has drawn; any fair-minded group would reach the same conclusion, which is why I haven't seen anyone challenge the logic.
My own view is that Cameron's leadership has been terminal for the Conservatives, and that 2015 will be their last hurrah.
I agree. However, I also agree (on a comment of yours a few days ago) that the 1990-1997 period did permanent damage to the Conservative party.
I think the root-cause of this, I'm sorry to say, was formally factionalising the party from the early 1980s onwards. It had reached fever pitch by 1990 and, once the lid was off, no leader ever found a way to appeal to the broad mass of the whole party again. The Conservatives lost their core strength, one they had always had: loyalty. It also started to turn inward, bitterly, and became a little bit insular and nasty.
The trouble was once the Conservative party became turbo-charged ideologically, every group starting judging the other by its purity; it's own "interpretation" of proper Conservatism.
[Edited so I can post]
Since then, he's pursued an entirely destructive strategy that's almost the exact opposite of the above. A strategy designed to show his own contempt for the Conservative Party to the electorate in the hope they will recognise his enlightenment and elect him. It's nihilistic trajectory has only been tempered by a few in his shadow cabinet that he either understands too little about, or is too apathetic to do anything about. As for results, it's actually accelerated and destroyed the remaining base of the party, without achieving anything of its objectives.
Fundamentally, the question is this: if people see you neither lead, unite or respect your own party, then why should they respect (and vote) for you?
Huge, but excellent post.
I think you are right to focus on 1990-1997 (the Major years). This is when the ERM debacle took place, both touching on national sovereignty (Is it a surprise the UKIP's symbol is a £?) and the everyday issue of housing (the greatest mass forced eviction since the Highland clearances happened during this period)?
I think during the long period out of office the Conservative Party lost shape, hence the overly ideological stance it took.
A measure of Cameron's incompetence is the fact he failed to win against a deeply unpopular PM who had messed up the economy. He then blamed the lack of a majority on his own party and declared war on it. Pillock.
Is the damage Cameron has inflicted repairable? The Tories haven't completely repaired the damage done by John Major.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
What do you consider to qualify someone as a Londoner?
Someone born in or who went to school in London
Seems a very, very narrow definition. Do you include the Essex suburbs or just postal London?
Not really very narrow. If you were born in Manchester and come to London at 18 you're not a Londoner
Essex suburbs would be a stretch maybe, but wouldn't be outrageous to say they were a Londone if they lived nr a tube station I guess
.
I would say a good definition of a Londoner is someone who knows that Londoners are created overnight, as soon as they start living in London - i.e. my definition upthread.
Anyone who denies this is NOT a Londoner. e.g. isam?
Wouldn't call myself a Londoner no. Despite living my whole life under London council/mayoral laws, as I live on the outskirts in zone 6
Wouldn't call you one either, or anyone else that wasnt raised in London. It's not an insult to say someone isn't may be however, which probably informs your definition.
You're not a Londoner, however much you'd like to be
Not by your definition, no.
Nor by any logical definition.
The other is complete rubbish for the reasons I have explained.
Haha he is so desperate to be a Londoner it's excrutiating! How embarrassing
What you define me as is meaningless. I tell people I'm "from Lomdon" if asked, I never introduce myself as a Londoner. I am merely querying why you seek to create a narrow definition - no need to be childish.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
Sounds a bit like being a Man United fan or some such
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
No it doesn't, it's the truth
Since the "real Londoners" seem to be abandoning London, the incomers are claiming it for their own.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
Sounds a bit like being a Man United fan or some such
Incidentally, on writing my reply to JackW, I was reminded of why Maria Miller is such a despicable character.
When the Jimmy Savile scandal exploded into the open, the Conservative Party conference was imminent.
So, what does the DCMS minister (Maria Miller) decide to address the conference about? Gay marriage.
So, gay marriage tops endemic child abuse in the nation's lead broadcaster? Only in Cameron's warped cabinet.
So you would have preferred her to try and make political capital out of some despicable actions by a dead man?
I would have preferred her to start cleansing the BBC of its child abuse culture and start the restitution to its victims.
You're saying that there is a culture of child abuse at the BBC?
Oh dear. I see there's someone else I need to send the tinfoil-hat making instructions to.
Thanks for the offer.
Perhaps you'd like to expand your defence of the BBC, rather than giving pithy one-liners?
I criticise the BBC frequently, but also say I get good value from the licence fee, even if the licence fee model is unsustainable in the long term. That position seems to upset both the BBC-haters and the BBC-lovers on here.
There is plenty of ground on which the current BBC can be criticised. Trying to make something out of Gill's sculptures from 80 years ago seems rather strange.
The sculptures are still there.
Your linked article alone is enough for BBC to be closed down forthwith.
Their completely hypocritical treatment of other organisations with child abuse problems means that by their own standards:
a. They are unfit to function as the major news organisation of this country. b. They are unfit to continue in any form.
Translated into parliamentary seats Fidesz looked on course to win 133 seats out of a total of 199 with the leftist Unity Alliance taking 37 seats and Jobbik 24 seats.
CasinoRoyale Which is why I think Cameron will not win a majority in 2015, however he still beats Miliband in preferred PM polls, which is why I believe the Tories will be largest party in another Coalition, particularly as most Tory voters have gone to UKIP not Labour. Ideologically that probably suits Cameron, he could easily be an 'Orange Book' Liberal and has more in common with them than the Eurosceptic Tory right!
What do you consider to qualify someone as a Londoner?
Someone born in or who went to school in London
Seems a very, very narrow definition. Do you include the Essex suburbs or just postal London?
Not really very narrow. If you were born in Manchester and come to London at 18 you're not a Londoner
Essex suburbs would be a stretch maybe, but wouldn't be outrageous to say they were a Londone if they lived nr a tube station I guess
It's crazy and sad that you seek to exclude people from a city that is built on attracting talent from all over the world. I think you are in a tiny minority, thankfully.
I'll always be a coventrian. Don't live there now but I haven't suddenly become a yorkshireman...
The person you refer in yr post is, and always will be a Manc.
.
Why would you be so upset to be a Cornishman that lives in London rather than a Londoner? No offence intended, I amazed you have taken any
Er, I've not taken offence. However
1. I am being mildly abusive because opinions like yours need to be squashed. London is a great city PRECISELY because it welcomes all kinds of people and makes them Londoners, overnight. If ever it become a xenophobic place populated by drwarvish inbreds who throw eggs at incomers into the 3rd generation and say YOU DON'T REALLY BELONG, like certain towns in Cornwall, then it would lose its magic and dynamism immediately.
2. I am bored and sober. It turns out I am MORE aggressive when I am sober. Who knew?
Oh right. Well I wasn't intending any offence to anyone, yourself or Boba whatisname. Just would like to emphasise that.
But I will have to disagree with your definition as you have mine. What you say is what is id expect a non Londoner who lives there to say. @Nigel4england obviously is a real Londoner, his roots are there. Mine are too but I wouldn't claim to be a Londoner as I am from zone 6 which is Essex really, although prob 25% East London/ 75% Essex in all honesty.
People whos family roots are in London don't embrace the multi culturalism and vibrAncy in the way people who chose to live there do.
Hence they leave
No real need for the chav insults in my opinion, I didn't insult you, we have never met and you wouldn't know if I was a chav or not
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
No it doesn't, it's the truth
Since the "real Londoners" seem to be abandoning London, the incomers are claiming it for their own.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
No it doesn't, it's the truth
Since the "real Londoners" seem to be abandoning London, the incomers are claiming it for their own.
That's my point really
What's the problem with that? It's been happening for generations.
Incidentally, on writing my reply to JackW, I was reminded of why Maria Miller is such a despicable character.
When the Jimmy Savile scandal exploded into the open, the Conservative Party conference was imminent.
So, what does the DCMS minister (Maria Miller) decide to address the conference about? Gay marriage.
So, gay marriage tops endemic child abuse in the nation's lead broadcaster? Only in Cameron's warped cabinet.
So you would have preferred her to try and make political capital out of some despicable actions by a dead man?
I would have preferred her to start cleansing the BBC of its child abuse culture and start the restitution to its victims.
You're saying that there is a culture of child abuse at the BBC?
Oh dear. I see there's someone else I need to send the tinfoil-hat making instructions to.
Thanks for the offer.
Perhaps you'd like to expand your defence of the BBC, rather than giving pithy one-liners?
I criticise the BBC frequently, but also say I get good value from the licence fee, even if the licence fee model is unsustainable in the long term. That position seems to upset both the BBC-haters and the BBC-lovers on here.
There is plenty of ground on which the current BBC can be criticised. Trying to make something out of Gill's sculptures from 80 years ago seems rather strange.
The sculptures are still there.
Your linked article alone is enough for BBC to be closed down forthwith.
Their completely hypocritical treatment of other organisations with child abuse problems means that by their own standards:
a. They are unfit to function as the major news organisation of this country. b. They are unfit to continue in any form.
Well, given recent and historic scandals I would think the Catholic church should be shut down, as it is unfit to be in a position of authority over people, and the Church of England should be put into special measures.
But I don't call for that, because I realise it's stupid.
As an aside, your interest in those sculptures seems rather odd.
Only 1 in 6 people in London were born in London. It therefore seems a bit difficult for the tiny minority to tell the great majority that they're not real Londoners.
No it doesn't, it's the truth
Since the "real Londoners" seem to be abandoning London, the incomers are claiming it for their own.
That's my point really
What's the problem with that? It's been happening for generations.
And no doubt the old Londoners thought the 'immigrants' to London weren't Londoners then either
Look I've no idea where you come from, and it doesn't matter to me if you think of yourself as a Londoner despite living in Hereford or somewhere until you were 25. But people who's family have lived in London for generations and were born and raised there wouldn't think of you as a Londoner if that were the case. Whether you liked it or not
I lived in Kentish Town for a couple of years but that didnt make me a Londoner. I was an essex boy who was living in North London
Incidentally, on writing my reply to JackW, I was reminded of why Maria Miller is such a despicable character.
So you would have preferred her to try and make political capital out of some despicable actions by a dead man?
I would have preferred her to start cleansing the BBC of its child abuse culture and start the restitution to its victims.
You're saying that there is a culture of child abuse at the BBC?
Oh dear. I see there's someone else I need to send the tinfoil-hat making instructions to.
Thanks for the offer.
Perhaps you'd like to expand your defence of the BBC, rather than giving pithy one-liners?
The sculptures are still there.
Your linked article alone is enough for BBC to be closed down forthwith.
Their completely hypocritical treatment of other organisations with child abuse problems means that by their own standards:
a. They are unfit to function as the major news organisation of this country. b. They are unfit to continue in any form.
Well, given recent and historic scandals I would think the Catholic church should be shut down, as it is unfit to be in a position of authority over people, and the Church of England should be put into special measures.
But I don't call for that, because I realise it's stupid.
As an aside, your interest in those sculptures seems rather odd.
The Catholic Church is a private organisation, not owned by the UK public. The Catholic Church does not levy taxes on the UK public.
But, both the BBC and RCC in England and Wales are unelected.
I also note you have failed to provide comparators for both organisations.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
I've lived in a few cities, including London, and thought of myself as a - whatever city it was - at the time. But I was never sure I'd be staying... and even though I've lived in Brighton since '96 I'm not sure I'll stay. Does that make a difference? Not sure, but it *feels* like it should, for some reason. Otherwise I'm Potteries, where I grew up, and that will never change.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
This ridiculous conversation about London reminds of when I was in Paris in 1990 and went to an all-nighter where they handed out badges inscribed with 'I am a raver' just so that everyone knew what they were up to. Sometimes words detract.
On this subject, I remember it being Livingston who first changed the meaning of Londoner to encompass anyone who happens to be in London at any one time. It was part of the LondON campaign that was run at the height of open-door multiculturalism. Bojo didn't drop the campaign. Whilst great for making newbies feel at home, it does strip others of some of their identity. Same as 'British citizen' for newcomers vs British British etc.
But dull dull dull... and irrelevant now globalisation is making London a world city, countries less relevant, and people live great chunks of their lives online etc.
This ridiculous conversation about London reminds of when I was in Paris in 1990 and went to an all-nighter where they handed out badges inscribed with 'I am a raver' just so that everyone knew what they were up to. Sometimes words detract.
On this subject, I remember it being Livingston who first changed the meaning of Londoner to encompass anyone who happens to be in London at any one time. It was part of the LondON campaign that was run at the height of open-door multiculturalism. Bojo didn't drop the campaign. Whilst great for making newbies feel at home, it does strip others of some of their identity. Same as 'British citizen' for newcomers vs British British etc.
But dull dull dull... and irrelevant now globalisation is making London a world city, countries less relevant, and people live great chunks of their lives online etc.
Well yes it's full but you seem to be agreeing with me?!
No no, by you. I'm not a Londoner, but don't pretend to be
You sure you're not a lefty? I really thought your response to this would be 'I'm a Cornishman, how could I pretend otherwise? But I love my adopted home""
Please let Maria Miller stay for as long as possible. Everyone loves a bit of BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING :-)
The rightwing press in this country I despair at,they part of the problem that is giving miliband keys to no 10,the leftwing press are united in wanting a labour government,example -
Tomorrow's Independent front page: 'Miliband to the rescue of the middle classes' http://bit.ly/1e4fnBQ
The Guardian is a left wing rag that will use any excuse to knock the Tories. Remember all those stories about the Tory friends in fascist parties in the EU parly? The Indy is lefty but can't find a brand, because its owner is trying to live down his KGB past.
If there was any regulation that demanded truth from the press I would endorse it.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
The Catholic Church is a private organisation, not owned by the UK public. The Catholic Church does not levy taxes on the UK public.
But, both the BBC and RCC in England and Wales are unelected.
I also note you have failed to provide comparators for both organisations.
I think you may be letting your dislike of the BBC get in the way of your sense.
What comparators do you want? If you look at the last eighty years (roughly the period the BBC's been in existence), then I *guess* that there will have been more sexual abuse and deaths due to Catholic priests and helpers in the UK than BBC employees.
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse. Yet most people will want the Catholic church to pay recompense and prevent any such things happening again, rather than to shut it down.
What's good for the BBC should be doubly good for the Catholic church, which actually pretends to be an arbiter of righteousness and morality.
Anyway, the F1's over and I'm off to bed. Nighty night, everyone.
Cameron has screwed up big time over Miller although I suspect the standards she's being judged by would snare many more MP'S - Balls and Cooper to name but two.
And yet people like Richad Nabavi seem to think it's perfectly reasonable for them to be judged by a committee of MPs, who can overrule the impartial independent body.
I've been doing other things, so maybe I missed your reply to out exchange on Friday - did you ever actually get round to actually reading the Committee's arguments, having admitted that you had reached your verdict without bothering to do so?
I never admitted at all that I reached my verdict without bothering to do so. I wonder if you even read my replies sometimes. I actually read through again the bits you wanted me to read. They raised a large number of mainly mundane points, so unless I was going to fisk the whole thing, I couldn't easily respond to the supposedly killer arguments that you felt they were right on, while the impartial body was wrong on. I asked you to say clearly which precise bits you wanted me to respond to, but you didn't.
Oh, and by the way, I never said it was reasonable for a committee of MPs to decide the issue. That doesn't alter the fact this committee appears to be objectively correct in the conclusion it has drawn; any fair-minded group would reach the same conclusion, which is why I haven't seen anyone challenge the logic.
You seemed to take extreme umbrage at my suggestion that the MP committee wasn't impartial, however.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
Haha well they were thugs! But I don't mean they'd give someone a hiding for just saying they were as much a Londoner, they'd laugh in their face, prob think it was a joke. But if they'd kept on...
Please let Maria Miller stay for as long as possible. Everyone loves a bit of BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING :-)
The rightwing press in this country I despair at,they part of the problem that is giving miliband keys to no 10,the leftwing press are united in wanting a labour government,example -
Tomorrow's Independent front page: 'Miliband to the rescue of the middle classes' http://bit.ly/1e4fnBQ
The Guardian is a left wing rag that will use any excuse to knock the Tories. Remember all those stories about the Tory friends in fascist parties in the EU parly? The Indy is lefty but can't find a brand, because its owner is trying to live down his KGB past.
If there was any regulation that demanded truth from the press I would endorse it.
Post of the year, maybe the decade. A PB Hodge complaining about lefty papers(both which didn't back Labour at the last election) demanding truth from the press. What, unlike those bastions of truth The Mail, The Express, The Sun, The Times, The Telegraph.....pure comedy gold.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
Haha well they were thugs! But I don't mean they'd give someone a hiding for just saying they were as much a Londoner, they'd laugh in their face, prob think it was a joke. But if they'd kept on...
The same would happen to a black guy claiming to be British to a bunch of BNP types. I'm not sure what the point is.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
Haha well they were thugs! But I don't mean they'd give someone a hiding for just saying they were as much a Londoner, they'd laugh in their face, prob think it was a joke. But if they'd kept on...
The same would happen to a black guy claiming to be British to a bunch of BNP types. I'm not sure what the point is.
You are probably right about that.i think if a black guy that had been born and raised in Senegal and moved to Britain at age 18 said he was as British as a person that had been born on Britain and so had his grandparents he would be wrong, just as a British person moving to Senegal at age 18 would be wrong to say the opposite. Colour doesn't come into it.
The British person here need not be white by the way
For instance Ravi Bopara is more British than Jonathan Trott. Who could argue different?
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Good god. Do you realise how painfully juvenile and idiotic this sounds? Boasting that your friends are violent, puerile morons.
Advice: stop now, go away, and come back another time.
Could repeat the first part of your post back to you with 'boasting that you are a Londoner' replacing the morons part
Why take it so bad? I'm ok with being from Essex, what's so bad about being from Cornwall?
I think you say you're a Londoner because you think it's trendy and cool to say so
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
Haha well they were thugs! But I don't mean they'd give someone a hiding for just saying they were as much a Londoner, they'd laugh in their face, prob think it was a joke. But if they'd kept on...
The same would happen to a black guy claiming to be British to a bunch of BNP types. I'm not sure what the point is.
You are probably right about that.i think if a black guy that had been born and raised in Senegal and moved to Britain at age 18 said he was as British as a person that had been born on Britain and so had his grandparents he would be wrong, just as a British person moving to Senegal at age 18 would be wrong to say the opposite. Colour doesn't come into it.
The British person here need not be white by the way
For instance Ravi Bopara is more British than Jonathan Trott. Who could argue different?
So Richard Dawkins, Isaiah Berlin and Mo Farah aren't British then?
Seant: jellied eels and liquor or a nice Kelly's vanilla ice cream?
BTW, a real Londoner would have the ice cream every time.
A real Londoner would have the ribeye at Heston Blumenthal's Dinner.
And here perhaps is the answer. There are DIFFERENT Londons, and therefore different kinds of Londoner - as one might expect from such a great, ancient and multifarious city.
There is my London, where I am a Londoner, and there is your London, where you are a Londoner; both are perfectly valid, though they exist in parallel and might not overlap.
There. Now shall we move on?
I think this is the closest we will ever get to Sean admitting he may not be right after all!
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
What comparators do you want? If you look at the last eighty years (roughly the period the BBC's been in existence), then I *guess* that there will have been more sexual abuse and deaths due to Catholic priests and helpers in the UK than BBC employees.
But not unreasonably. The BBC doesn't run hospitals, schools, children's homes, Mother and Baby homes. So, we cannot compare the BBC to the RCC. We must instead compare it to, say, ITV or SKY.
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse.
Maria Miller is the minister responsible for the BBC, a public corporation. She also was the subject of the last thread, if you didn't notice. Believe or not, I'm being on topic.
Yet most people will want the Catholic church to pay recompense and prevent any such things happening again, rather than to shut it down.
What's good for the BBC should be doubly good for the Catholic church, which actually pretends to be an arbiter of righteousness and morality.
And the BBC doesn't?
From the article you cited:
"The BBC isn’t the Catholic Church, but it has its own ideals and traditions, which cause people to pause before naming the unwise acts that have been performed on its premises. Perhaps more than any church, the BBC continues to be a powerhouse of virtue, of intelligence and tolerance, but it is now suffering a kind of ecclesiastical terror at its own fallibility."
The RCC provides the best free education in England and Wales and is the largest dispenser of free healthcare in the World.
The BBC makes a few telly programmes.
Healthcare and education more important than TV? I certainly think so.
I am a Londoner born and bred from a family that has been in the same part of London for at least 120 years. My sister and Mum are still there. I don't think isam's views are necessarily that representative. The whole point of London is to be a magnet and to welcome people in from everywhere else in the UK and beyond. That's precisely why it's the city it is. All of us from there are descended from people who moved there at some point.
In that case we shouldn't have to give any credence to the cultural norms of people who move there from abroad.theyre just ordinary Londoners. How would that go down?
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
Bloody hell. They sound a great bunch. Giving someone a kicking for daring to claim to be a Londoner. I am not sure they're necessarily representative of anything much. They just sound like thugs. Every city has those, I suppose.
Haha well they were thugs! But I don't mean they'd give someone a hiding for just saying they were as much a Londoner, they'd laugh in their face, prob think it was a joke. But if they'd kept on...
The same would happen to a black guy claiming to be British to a bunch of BNP types. I'm not sure what the point is.
You are probably right about that.i think if a black guy that had been born and raised in Senegal and moved to Britain at age 18 said he was as British as a person that had been born on Britain and so had his grandparents he would be wrong, just as a British person moving to Senegal at age 18 would be wrong to say the opposite. Colour doesn't come into it.
The British person here need not be white by the way
For instance Ravi Bopara is more British than Jonathan Trott. Who could argue different?
So Richard Dawkins, Isaiah Berlin and Mo Farah aren't British then?
I don't know who the middle one is, but I would say Farah isn't as Britsh as someone whose family has been here generations, Dawkins family are British I think but he was born in Kenya?
Farah surely feels some allegiance to the country he emigrated from? Where his brother still lives? Isn't that worth something?Or does he have to drop it all in an attempt to prove he is as British as the next man?
No ones going to hold it against him but what is say is he would have a diff opinion of Britain to someone who's roots are here, rightly or wrongly
What comparators do you want? If you look at the last eighty years (roughly the period the BBC's been in existence), then I *guess* that there will have been more sexual abuse and deaths due to Catholic priests and helpers in the UK than BBC employees.
But not unreasonably. The BBC doesn't run hospitals, schools, children's homes, Mother and Baby homes. So, we cannot compare the BBC to the RCC. We must instead compare it to, say, ITV or SKY.
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse.
Maria Miller is the minister responsible for the BBC, a public corporation. She also was the subject of the last thread, if you didn't notice. Believe or not, I'm being on topic.
Yet most people will want the Catholic church to pay recompense and prevent any such things happening again, rather than to shut it down.
What's good for the BBC should be doubly good for the Catholic church, which actually pretends to be an arbiter of righteousness and morality.
And the BBC doesn't?
From the article you cited:
"The BBC isn’t the Catholic Church, but it has its own ideals and traditions, which cause people to pause before naming the unwise acts that have been performed on its premises. Perhaps more than any church, the BBC continues to be a powerhouse of virtue, of intelligence and tolerance, but it is now suffering a kind of ecclesiastical terror at its own fallibility."
The RCC provides the best free education in England and Wales and is the largest dispenser of free healthcare
The BBC makes a few telly programmes.
Healthcare and education more important than TV? I certainly think so.
They both survive by a fear and guilt culture, the RCC fear and guilt is obvious, the BBC by the criminal record if you don't have a licence.
There have been many (myself included) who have recently suggested the Lib Dems are fools who acting as Tory handmaidens whilst their own Party disintegrates. However a couple of recent decisions may require us to revise our opinions. First of all Nick Clegg challenges Nigel Farage to a debate on Europe. I mean a Deputy PM putting himself on tv so he can take a pummeling from the leader of a still largely fringe Party? Why? It seems Nick was thinking ahead of us. Believing the Lib Dems have bottomed out in the polls but remaining stuck, their best bet is to give Farage the publicity to damage the Tories and hence save Lib Dem MPs in the South West. Secondly we get the news about the Royal Mail sell off. The under-pricing, the national emblem, the 'gentlemen's agreement' it all acts as a lighting rod for what the public dislike about the Tories. Quite simply a political masterstroke from Vince that sets David Cameron's rebranding of the Tories back years. Speculative stuff of course but the proof of the pudding appears to have arrived. The Tories down and Ukip up in the latest polls. Just shows that when Nick and Vince work together then the sky's the limit. Well 57 MPs anyway.
Seant: jellied eels and liquor or a nice Kelly's vanilla ice cream?
BTW, a real Londoner would have the ice cream every time.
A real Londoner would have the ribeye at Heston Blumenthal's Dinner.
And here perhaps is the answer. There are DIFFERENT Londons, and therefore different kinds of Londoner - as one might expect from such a great, ancient and multifarious city.
There is my London, where I am a Londoner, and there is your London, where you are a Londoner; both are perfectly valid, though they exist in parallel and might not overlap.
There. Now shall we move on?
I think this is the closest we will ever get to Sean admitting he may not be right after all!
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
Bollocks. That was me trying to help you and isam quit embarrassing yourselves. With isam I have clearly failed. But this is my last word on a ridiculous topic.
As for pasties, when it comes to Philips it depends on the branch, or so I am told by experts. Hayle still good, Marazion less so.
I've also heard this place is good: McFaddens in St Just
Certainly St Just is the most Cornish town in Cornwall. It's where I am setting my next thriller. Where the tunnels go under the sea....
I'm now loving this! I'm complete opposite, I love the Philps in Marazion, sitting with a good pasty in the gardens overlooking the Mount is a perfect way to spend lunchtime, but find the Hayle pasties too salty, probably me being ridiculous as they must be be the same! Had one in the Praze An Beeble shop once but that was years ago.
Never had McFaddens but I used to love Enzo's Italian restaurant in St Just.
To me when the sun is shining there is no place in the world I would rather be than Cornwall, I am sure as a travel writer you would disagree.
Seant: jellied eels and liquor or a nice Kelly's vanilla ice cream?
BTW, a real Londoner would have the ice cream every time.
A real Londoner would have the ribeye at Heston Blumenthal's Dinner.
And here perhaps is the answer. There are DIFFERENT Londons, and therefore different kinds of Londoner - as one might expect from such a great, ancient and multifarious city.
There is my London, where I am a Londoner, and there is your London, where you are a Londoner; both are perfectly valid, though they exist in parallel and might not overlap.
There. Now shall we move on?
I think this is the closest we will ever get to Sean admitting he may not be right after all!
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
Bollocks. That was me trying to help you and isam quit embarrassing yourselves. With isam I have clearly failed. But this is my last word on a ridiculous topic.
As for pasties, when it comes to Philips it depends on the branch, or so I am told by experts. Hayle still good, Marazion less so.
I've also heard this place is good: McFaddens in St Just
Certainly St Just is the most Cornish town in Cornwall. It's where I am setting my next thriller. Where the tunnels go under the sea....
What I would say is imagine what men from the place you grew up in would think of a bloke from Essex in his late 30s moving to Cornwall and declaring himself as Cornish as the men whose families have lived there for generations.
That's how you sound like to real Londoners
But you have a different concept of London from a lot of real Londoners, so you don't get it
I'm a Norvicensian, you're all weird. Miliband pledges unspecified nice things for target voters will be centrepiece of election manifesto. It begins, or rather, it doesn't. Dyeds outcomometer for 2015 edging to Labour largest party. UKIP/Tory deal likelihood increasing.
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse.
Maria Miller is the minister responsible for the BBC, a public corporation. She also was the subject of the last thread, if you didn't notice. Believe or not, I'm being on topic.
They both survive by a fear and guilt culture, the RCC fear and guilt is obvious, the BBC by the criminal record if you don't have a licence.
Hello Nigel, I've been meaning to have a word.
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
Seant: jellied eels and liquor or a nice Kelly's vanilla ice cream?
BTW, a real Londoner would have the ice cream every time.
A
I think this is the closest we will ever get to Sean admitting he may not be right after all!
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
Certainly St Just is the most Cornish town in Cornwall. It's where I am setting my next thriller. Where the tunnels go under the sea....
I'm now loving this! I'm complete opposite, I love the Philps in Marazion, sitting with a good pasty in the gardens overlooking the Mount is a perfect way to spend lunchtime, but find the Hayle pasties too salty, probably me being ridiculous as they must be be the same! Had one in the Praze An Beeble shop once but that was years ago.
Never had McFaddens but I used to love Enzo's Italian restaurant in St Just.
To me when the sun is shining there is no place in the world I would rather be than Cornwall, I am sure as a travel writer you would disagree.
Lord no, I totally agree: on a sunny day in spring or summer Cornwall is as fine a place in all the world - on the gilded banks of the Helford, striding the mighty cliffs above Zennor, watching the surf at Bedruthan Steps. It is beautiful.
And the best takeaway meal I have ever had in my life was a pasty bought at Philips Hayle. It was 3pm, it was a cold grey day in late February/early March, and I'd been working hard since 8am (researching a travel piece). I was starving (I'd skipped breakfast and lunch), but my friend (a true Cornishman and pasty expert) kept saying no no, wait til we get to Philips at Hayle, the pasties are worth it. Properly peppery!
So I did wait, and when we got there we bought the pasties - and then suddenly the sun came out, and the sky cleared - the first warm sun of spring, and we sat on a wall in the sun overlooking the beach and ate these excellent pasties, as you are meant to, hot and fresh in the hand.
It was a rare moment of pure happiness. Real sincere happiness. I will never forget it.
I don't know Zennor but on your recommendation I will head that way. The way you have described the pasty at Hayle will sound ridiculous to many but I know exactly what you mean, for all the great meals I have in good restaurants I would swap any if them for a proper pasty in the right setting.
Had a plough mans in the Ferryboat Inn at Helford a couple of years ago, sublime lunch.
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse.
Maria Miller is the minister responsible for the BBC, a public corporation. She also was the subject of the last thread, if you didn't notice. Believe or not, I'm being on topic.
They both survive by a fear and guilt culture, the RCC fear and guilt is obvious, the BBC by the criminal record if you don't have a licence.
Hello Nigel, I've been meaning to have a word.
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
That assumes that popery is a religion. Many would, quite reasonably, argue that it is a political conspiracy designed to subject princes and peoples to the temporal and spiritual jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.
Seant: jellied eels and liquor or a nice Kelly's vanilla ice cream?
BTW, a real Londoner would have the ice cream every time.
A
I think this is the closest we will ever get to Sean admitting he may not be right after all!
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
Certainly St Just is the most Cornish town in Cornwall. It's where I am setting my next thriller. Where the tunnels go under the sea....
I'm now loving this! I'm complete opposite, I love the Philps in Marazion, sitting with a good pasty in the gardens overlooking the Mount is a perfect way to spend lunchtime, but find the Hayle pasties too salty, probably me being ridiculous as they must be be the same! Had one in the Praze An Beeble shop once but that was years ago.
Never had McFaddens but I used to love Enzo's Italian restaurant in St Just.
To me when the sun is shining there is no place in the world I would rather be than Cornwall, I am sure as a travel writer you would disagree.
ll in the sun overlooking the beach and ate these excellent pasties, as you are meant to, hot and fresh in the hand.
It was a rare moment of pure happiness. Real sincere happiness. I will never forget it.
I don't know Zennor but on your recommendation I will head that way. The way you have described the pasty at Hayle will sound ridiculous to many but I know exactly what you mean, for all the great meals I have in good restaurants I would swap any if them for a proper pasty in the right setting.
Had a plough mans in the Ferryboat Inn at Helford a couple of years ago, sublime lunch.
Zennor is amazing. One of the most atmospheric villages in Europe. Likewise that whole West Penwith coast from Morvah east. Do the walk from St Ives to Zennor then have a couple of drinks in the Tinners. Brilliant pub.
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
That assumes that the popery is a religion. Many would, quite reasonably, argue that it is a political conspiracy designed to subject princes and peoples to the temporal and spiritual jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.
One question. Do you feel 'subjected' to His Holiness, any more than you feel subjected to the Dalai Lama, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Richard Dawkins?
Did HM Queen feel subjected to him when they exchanged gifts and pleasantries last week?
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
That assumes that the popery is a religion. Many would, quite reasonably, argue that it is a political conspiracy designed to subject princes and peoples to the temporal and spiritual jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.
One question. Do you feel 'subjected' to His Holiness, any more than you feel subjected to the Dalai Lama, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Richard Dawkins?
Did HM Queen feel subjected to him when they exchanged gifts and pleasantries last week?
Dunno. What's the Dalai Lama's line on birth control?
One question. Do you feel 'subjected' to His Holiness, any more than you feel subjected to the Dalai Lama, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Richard Dawkins?
Did HM Queen feel subjected to him when they exchanged gifts and pleasantries last week?
Dawkins et al. do not claim a plenitudo potestatis over the whole world. The Popes of Rome do make that claim, and if history shows us anything, it is that they would impose it by force of arms if they could. Fortunately, since 1533 (the Marian tyranny notwithstanding) the Romish "church" has had no jurisdiction within this realm.
Why Her Majesty is forced to visit a foreign churchman who claims the right to depose her, whereupon it would be lawful, in his view, for her subjects to murder her, I do not know. There is a limit to ecumenism.
One question. Do you feel 'subjected' to His Holiness, any more than you feel subjected to the Dalai Lama, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Richard Dawkins?
Did HM Queen feel subjected to him when they exchanged gifts and pleasantries last week?
Dawkins et al. do not claim a plenitudo potestatis over the whole world. The Popes of Rome do make that claim, and if history shows us anything, it is that they would impose it by force of arms if they could. Fortunately, since 1533 (the Marian tyranny notwithstanding) the Romish "church" has had no jurisdiction within this realm.
Why Her Majesty is forced to visit a foreign churchman who claims the right to depose her, whereupon it would be lawful, in his view, for her subjects to murder her, I do not know. There is a limit to ecumenism.
I've always wondered what life was like in the 16th Century. Thanks for the insight...
"The Popes of Rome do make that claim..." Well there's been a lorra lorra Popes, you know, and a lorra lorra claims over the years millennia... You will also know that the Pope is an absolute monarch, and starts afresh each time, not bound by his predecessors in any way...
I don't think you have anything to fear about the Pope's temporal power, or another Gunpowder Plot. Comrade Stalin analysed the situation quite objectively, if I recall...
Amazingly, CNN are still bigging it 24/7 on MH370.
They've even rented a 777-200er simulator full time and have a CNN reporter sitting in the co-pilot's seat. Obviously none of the airlines will let them use theirs, but they've found one in Mississauga ON Canada that they are renting.
msnbc by contrast are spending inordinate amounts of time on the closing of 2 eastbound lanes on the George Washington bridge for a couple of days last August
There must have been quite a lot alive at the same time in the 80s and 90s.
The most living former Prime Ministers at any one time has been 5, which has happened several times: the first time was between January and November 1770, while Lord North was in office, and The Earl of Bute, George Grenville, the 2nd Marquess of Rockingham, Pitt the Elder, and the 3rd Duke of Grafton were still alive (Grenville died in November 1770); from 1964 to 1965 with Clement Attlee; Winston Churchill; Anthony Eden; Harold Macmillan; and Alec Douglas-Home the most recent was between November 1990 and May 1995, while John Major was in office, and Douglas-Home, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan and Thatcher were still alive (Wilson died on the 24th May 1995).
Rory Stewart's proggie on Northumberland on BBC2 atm is absolutely fascinating, and rather well shot: lots of bleak hillsides and walking through mist. Shame I missed the first one last week.
Rory Stewart's first programme last week was repeated on Tuesday evening on BBC2, so you can still see it on i-player
Rory Stewart's proggie on Northumberland on BBC2 atm is absolutely fascinating, and rather well shot: lots of bleak hillsides and walking through mist. Shame I missed the first one last week.
Rory Stewart's first programme last week was repeated on Tuesday evening on BBC2, so you can still see it on i-player
"While a student at Oxford, he was a summer tutor to Prince William and Prince Harry. As a teenager, he was a member of the Labour Party."
I think the term "prime minister" wasn't used until about 1905 or thereabouts. Which means the majority of those in the list we refer to as PMs weren't actually so called at the time.
It's interesting to watch Rory Stewart's programme on the Middleland, and thinking about whether it's a realistic or viable theory of history.
Perhaps after the Conservative Party has collapsed through the senescence of its membership, and the UK has left the EU, and the UKIP has therefore disappeared through redundancy, and an independent Scotland has collapsed economically through hyperinflation, there might be a resurrection of the Middleland. Rory Stewart will lead the Border People's Army into battle against the imperialist English government of the hated despot Miliband, and the Middleland Renaissance Party will sweep to power across the fells and crags of Cumbria, Yorkshire and the southern uplands of Scotland.
Incidentally, on writing my reply to JackW, I was reminded of why Maria Miller is such a despicable character.
When the Jimmy Savile scandal exploded into the open, the Conservative Party conference was imminent.
So, what does the DCMS minister (Maria Miller) decide to address the conference about? Gay marriage.
So, gay marriage tops endemic child abuse in the nation's lead broadcaster? Only in Cameron's warped cabinet.
So you would have preferred her to try and make political capital out of some despicable actions by a dead man?
I would have preferred her to start cleansing the BBC of its child abuse culture and start the restitution to its victims.
You're saying that there is a culture of child abuse at the BBC?
Oh dear. I see there's someone else I need to send the tinfoil-hat making instructions to.
Thanks for the offer.
Perhaps you'd like to expand your defence of the BBC, rather than giving pithy one-liners?
I criticise the BBC frequently, but also say I get good value from the licence fee, even if the licence fee model is unsustainable in the long term. That position seems to upset both the BBC-haters and the BBC-lovers on here.
There is plenty of ground on which the current BBC can be criticised. Trying to make something out of Gill's sculptures from 80 years ago seems rather strange.
The sculptures are still there.
Your linked article alone is enough for BBC to be closed down forthwith.
Their completely hypocritical treatment of other organisations with child abuse problems means that by their own standards:
a. They are unfit to function as the major news organisation of this country. b. They are unfit to continue in any form.
As an aside, your interest in those sculptures seems rather odd.
@Ninoinoz : Let me put it this way. You are calling for the BBC to be shut down because of the actions of a few sick people. Now, I'm saying that, as you point out, the Catholic church has much more contact with young children than the BBC, and often has a position of authority over them.
Surely such an organisation, which has repeatedly been seen to cover up abuse, including moving transgressors away from an area and yet allowing them to still have contact with children, is in no fit state to have any official contacts with kids. Therefore by your reasoning Catholic schools and adoption agencies should be immediately shut down. In fact, the whole rotten edifice should be closed.
I'm not saying that, because it's stupid. But if you think the BBC should be shut down for what happened, then surely you should say the same for those organisations that have much more contact with children, and much more of a duty of care towards them, and whose failures are so much larger?
Comments
Pulpstar 141 18 5 35 0 1.22 how close am I
As for historic abuse allegations and the BBC's part, I've also linked to the following LRB article on many occasions, so I'm hardly unaware.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n21/andrew-ohagan/light-entertainment
There is plenty of ground on which the current BBC can be criticised. Trying to make something out of Gill's sculptures from 80 years ago seems rather strange.
And one is a Londoner for life and the other is someone who lives in London at the moment
As I say, and I know you thought you were catching me out earlier with the Essex suburbs thing, I'm not really a Londoner either
What much of the press don't seem to get is they are in precisely the same boat as MPs for the same amusing reasons. Just as MPs are incapable of learning from past mistakes so are the papers. Both are caught in a death spiral on expenses and revolting press behaviour for the very simple reason that they just can't help themselves. The PCC is as pointless and impotent as IPSA in saving them from their own stupidity. Hence the inevitability of the next round of scandals on both sides.
Oh, and by the way, I never said it was reasonable for a committee of MPs to decide the issue. That doesn't alter the fact this committee appears to be objectively correct in the conclusion it has drawn; any fair-minded group would reach the same conclusion, which is why I haven't seen anyone challenge the logic.
I think you are right to focus on 1990-1997 (the Major years). This is when the ERM debacle took place, both touching on national sovereignty (Is it a surprise the UKIP's symbol is a £?) and the everyday issue of housing (the greatest mass forced eviction since the Highland clearances happened during this period)?
I think during the long period out of office the Conservative Party lost shape, hence the overly ideological stance it took.
A measure of Cameron's incompetence is the fact he failed to win against a deeply unpopular PM who had messed up the economy. He then blamed the lack of a majority on his own party and declared war on it. Pillock.
Is the damage Cameron has inflicted repairable? The Tories haven't completely repaired the damage done by John Major.
It was your silly "how embarrassing" remark that I thought was childish, not your definition.
Your definition isn't childish, just hopelessly outdated in the capital of the world.
Your linked article alone is enough for BBC to be closed down forthwith.
Their completely hypocritical treatment of other organisations with child abuse problems means that by their own standards:
a. They are unfit to function as the major news organisation of this country.
b. They are unfit to continue in any form.
Maybe it's because I am not a Londoner, that I love London Town?
But I will have to disagree with your definition as you have mine. What you say is what is id expect a non Londoner who lives there to say. @Nigel4england obviously is a real Londoner, his roots are there. Mine are too but I wouldn't claim to be a Londoner as I am from zone 6 which is Essex really, although prob 25% East London/ 75% Essex in all honesty.
People whos family roots are in London don't embrace the multi culturalism and vibrAncy in the way people who chose to live there do.
Hence they leave
No real need for the chav insults in my opinion, I didn't insult you, we have never met and you wouldn't know if I was a chav or not
What's the problem with that? It's been happening for generations.
But I don't call for that, because I realise it's stupid.
As an aside, your interest in those sculptures seems rather odd.
Btw I never said I was a Londoner! I'm not!
And no doubt the old Londoners thought the 'immigrants' to London weren't Londoners then either
Look I've no idea where you come from, and it doesn't matter to me if you think of yourself as a Londoner despite living in Hereford or somewhere until you were 25. But people who's family have lived in London for generations and were born and raised there wouldn't think of you as a Londoner if that were the case. Whether you liked it or not
I lived in Kentish Town for a couple of years but that didnt make me a Londoner. I was an essex boy who was living in North London
The Catholic Church does not levy taxes on the UK public.
But, both the BBC and RCC in England and Wales are unelected.
I also note you have failed to provide comparators for both organisations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJuIH721oIk
Gertcha, mashed potatoes indeed.
I used to play football for a pub in Canning Town called The Alex. If any of the "Londoners" on here tonight tried to say they were as much a Londoner as the people on my side they'd get a good hiding after they'd been laughed out of the pub
On this subject, I remember it being Livingston who first changed the meaning of Londoner to encompass anyone who happens to be in London at any one time. It was part of the LondON campaign that was run at the height of open-door multiculturalism. Bojo didn't drop the campaign. Whilst great for making newbies feel at home, it does strip others of some of their identity. Same as 'British citizen' for newcomers vs British British etc.
But dull dull dull... and irrelevant now globalisation is making London a world city, countries less relevant, and people live great chunks of their lives online etc.
You sure you're not a lefty? I really thought your response to this would be 'I'm a Cornishman, how could I pretend otherwise? But I love my adopted home""
If there was any regulation that demanded truth from the press I would endorse it.
What comparators do you want? If you look at the last eighty years (roughly the period the BBC's been in existence), then I *guess* that there will have been more sexual abuse and deaths due to Catholic priests and helpers in the UK than BBC employees.
For instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Great_Britain
Yet your ire is directed only towards the BBC? Where's your anger at the priests who ruined many children's lives? And it wasn't just boys, either, or just sexual abuse. Yet most people will want the Catholic church to pay recompense and prevent any such things happening again, rather than to shut it down.
What's good for the BBC should be doubly good for the Catholic church, which actually pretends to be an arbiter of righteousness and morality.
Anyway, the F1's over and I'm off to bed. Nighty night, everyone.
The British person here need not be white by the way
For instance Ravi Bopara is more British than Jonathan Trott. Who could argue different?
Why take it so bad? I'm ok with being from Essex, what's so bad about being from Cornwall?
I think you say you're a Londoner because you think it's trendy and cool to say so
I agree let's move on, though we could have a trivial Cornwall argument now, for example is Kelly's or Trevelisk the best ice cream? Philps pasties have gone downhill in my view, I prefer Portreath Bakery. Discuss?
But not unreasonably. The BBC doesn't run hospitals, schools, children's homes, Mother and Baby homes. So, we cannot compare the BBC to the RCC. We must instead compare it to, say, ITV or SKY. Maria Miller is the minister responsible for the BBC, a public corporation. She also was the subject of the last thread, if you didn't notice. Believe or not, I'm being on topic. And the BBC doesn't?
From the article you cited:
"The BBC isn’t the Catholic Church, but it has its own ideals and traditions, which cause people to pause before naming the unwise acts that have been performed on its premises. Perhaps more than any church, the BBC continues to be a powerhouse of virtue, of intelligence and tolerance, but it is now suffering a kind of ecclesiastical terror at its own fallibility."
The RCC provides the best free education in England and Wales and is the largest dispenser of free healthcare in the World.
The BBC makes a few telly programmes.
Healthcare and education more important than TV? I certainly think so.
Farah surely feels some allegiance to the country he emigrated from? Where his brother still lives? Isn't that worth something?Or does he have to drop it all in an attempt to prove he is as British as the next man?
No ones going to hold it against him but what is say is he would have a diff opinion of Britain to someone who's roots are here, rightly or wrongly
Never had McFaddens but I used to love Enzo's Italian restaurant in St Just.
To me when the sun is shining there is no place in the world I would rather be than Cornwall, I am sure as a travel writer you would disagree.
That's how you sound like to real Londoners
But you have a different concept of London from a lot of real Londoners, so you don't get it
Miliband pledges unspecified nice things for target voters will be centrepiece of election manifesto.
It begins, or rather, it doesn't.
Dyeds outcomometer for 2015 edging to Labour largest party. UKIP/Tory deal likelihood increasing.
Considering social conservatives (overwhelmingly religious people) have been expelled from the Conservative Party and have joined and supported UKIP in their droves, do you think it is wise to post your anti-religious comments on this board?
Perhaps it is best if you kept them to yourself, eh?
Had a plough mans in the Ferryboat Inn at Helford a couple of years ago, sublime lunch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCovGqMiZyA
*chortle*
Expect to hear interesting words from Russian foreign ministry within next 24-48 hours regarding events in Eastern Ukraine.
Curious that Ukrainian protestors, apparently requesting greater autonomy, are carrying Russian flags.
Not in anyway related to the appearance in recent days and week of Russian GRU bods.
I went down Crifty in the eighties when it was still a working mine, they couldn't have paid me enough to ever work down there.
Did HM Queen feel subjected to him when they exchanged gifts and pleasantries last week?
Why Her Majesty is forced to visit a foreign churchman who claims the right to depose her, whereupon it would be lawful, in his view, for her subjects to murder her, I do not know. There is a limit to ecumenism.
"The Popes of Rome do make that claim..." Well there's been a lorra lorra Popes, you know, and a lorra lorra claims over the years millennia... You will also know that the Pope is an absolute monarch, and starts afresh each time, not bound by his predecessors in any way...
I don't think you have anything to fear about the Pope's temporal power, or another Gunpowder Plot. Comrade Stalin analysed the situation quite objectively, if I recall...
They've even rented a 777-200er simulator full time and have a CNN reporter sitting in the co-pilot's seat. Obviously none of the airlines will let them use theirs, but they've found one in Mississauga ON Canada that they are renting.
msnbc by contrast are spending inordinate amounts of time on the closing of 2 eastbound lanes on the George Washington bridge for a couple of days last August
Top fellow. Knew a little about electoral systems too. FPTP in 1884, for instance...
The Tories could do with him now.
Wouldn't surprise me...
http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents/film/scarlett-johansson-on-under-the-skin-scotland-and-her-love-of-irn-bru.23436817
Between 1945 (death of Lloyd George) and 1945 (election of Attlee) there was one: Baldwin
Between 1923 (death of Bonar Law) and 1924 (election of Baldwin) there was one: Lloyd George
My wife reminded me of Para Handy and Oor Wullie - the sales dropping comment was hers: she's from Glasgow.
I suspect ordinary people, on the other hand, will be quite pleased:
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21600121-legislature-has-stopped-doing-things-so-it-might-well-start-undoing-things-britains-idle
Between 1908 (death of Campbell Bannerman) and 1918 (election of Lloyd George) there were none.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom#Most
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rory_Stewart
Perhaps after the Conservative Party has collapsed through the senescence of its membership, and the UK has left the EU, and the UKIP has therefore disappeared through redundancy, and an independent Scotland has collapsed economically through hyperinflation, there might be a resurrection of the Middleland. Rory Stewart will lead the Border People's Army into battle against the imperialist English government of the hated despot Miliband, and the Middleland Renaissance Party will sweep to power across the fells and crags of Cumbria, Yorkshire and the southern uplands of Scotland.
Homophobic? Maybe You’re Gay
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/homophobic-maybe-youre-gay.html?_r=0
Surely such an organisation, which has repeatedly been seen to cover up abuse, including moving transgressors away from an area and yet allowing them to still have contact with children, is in no fit state to have any official contacts with kids. Therefore by your reasoning Catholic schools and adoption agencies should be immediately shut down. In fact, the whole rotten edifice should be closed.
I'm not saying that, because it's stupid. But if you think the BBC should be shut down for what happened, then surely you should say the same for those organisations that have much more contact with children, and much more of a duty of care towards them, and whose failures are so much larger?