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Focus on the share of the vote not the lead – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,677
edited September 11 in General
Focus on the share of the vote not the lead – politicalbetting.com

Yesterday news broke Sir Robert Worcester, founder of MORI, had passed away. He used to post on PB in the early days, advising Mike Smithson and other PBers to focus on the share of the vote for the parties and not to fixate on the lead.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    edited September 11
    Foist

    Said in the voice of one of The Sopranos.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    I never met him, never moved in exalted circles, the nearest to meeting the famous I’ve come is getting an autograph at a dr who,con.

    Bob Worcester I remember for his insight on TV talking about polling. The first person to really make me aware of it.

    He is a sad loss.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,854
    Sacked by Peter Mandelson…
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61
  • Sacked by Peter Mandelson…

    As I noted yesterday, fucking hell, imagine being accused of being too self-centred and self-promotion by Peter Mandelson, does Mandy not do self-awareness?

    It'd be like me criticising others for being brash and not being modest and self-effacing
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,636
    edited September 11
    Morning PB.

    When very young Bob Worcester was one of those "voices of political facts" for me , like John Curttice. The apparently neutrally cheerful voice in in any political article. Also very strongly connected with the idea of MORI, in my memory somewhere. These were the authority bods.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,854

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    @KevinASchofield

    Home Office minister Mike Tapp doubling down on the government's defence of Peter Mandelson over his close friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Bold.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,230
    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
  • Taz said:

    I never met him, never moved in exalted circles, the nearest to meeting the famous I’ve come is getting an autograph at a dr who,con.

    Bob Worcester I remember for his insight on TV talking about polling. The first person to really make me aware of it.

    He is a sad loss.

    Professor Anthony King was also another one from that era, their accents mesmerised me for some odd reason.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 784
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    Home Office minister Mike Tapp doubling down on the government's defence of Peter Mandelson over his close friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Bold.

    As in a Sir Humphrey use of the word bold?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,761
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Trying to work out who if anyone in the UK is the equivalent of Kirk, Walsh and Shapiro.

    Tommy perhaps. Katie. Owen.

    Okay not too tricky.

    I don't think there is a British equivalent really. Kirk fancied himself as a debater and intellectual, rather than the street agitator style of Robinson. British Right Wing Populism doesn't have the intellectual foundations of MAGA, centered as it is in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.
    Dan Hannan, Peter Hitchens, most GB news presenters, even Clarkson or Kelvin McKenzie
    None of those are "centered in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.".

    Nor did any build their following but setting up an organisation to proselytise on college campuses.

    UK politics doesn't really have an equivalent of that US style conservatism, and we are better for it.

    Possibly a nearer thing (and it's still not really comparable) might be Tommy Robinson.
    What an interesting question.

    Maga is not centered on "Evangelical Christianity"; that is just a skin, and they have put it through a filter to exclude the parts that don't fit with an "America first" worldview. Recall how frightened and vicious Trump and Vance were when Bishop Budde reminded them that "mercy" and 'caring for the refugee' are Christian (and Evangelical Christian) values.

    Evangelical Christianity has gone through a filter in Maga in the same way as the Dutch Reformed Church ended up justifying apartheid - the tradition of say Hegseth is similar, embracing women as subservient and so on. There' an 'intellectual' justification too, which is easier to fall for in the American context - Manifest Destiny and the rest of the self-justifying garbage, which is met even amongst liberals ("the USA is the best country in the world" etc).

    Remember that Martin Luther King was an Evangelical Christian (Baptist Minister); it's never as simple as we would like.

    On UK equivalents, I'd go for someone more intellectual than a street thug like Tommy Robinson, since Turning Point targets universities and young adults. Perhaps a better equivalent is Matt Gooodwin or someone attached to Natcon or in the Free Speech Union or anti-abortion circles. There's a whole zoo of Right-fringe organisations trying to be intellectual, but I don't know any figures who have made it.

    I don't know eg a younger populist version of Douglas Murray, who might qualify. Most of the Evangelicals on the political right in the UK do not seem to go down that route, and pull back towards more useful emphases (eg Steve Barclay); they sort of self-triangulate and avoid the rabbit hole. That's partly to do with UK evanglicals being far more integrated.

    Does Paul Marshall have any programmes for developing thought leaders?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,074
    edited September 11
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    edited September 11
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    Thanks, I was actually aware of it being an ITV show giving awards to ITV shows and presenters having seen it previously 🙄

    My commentary was more about the voters. I never said it was a surprise.

    I wasn’t surprised Lineker won either given he’s moved to ITV with a new gameshow.

    Glad you enjoyed the Molly Mae show thing. Z list celebrity relationship break ups aren’t my thing so I passed on it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,636
    edited September 11

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Indeed. Where is the Prime Ministerial voice on Continental affairs and daily news ?

    It's sad, but not, particularly, our story. Just another example of our satellite status.
  • TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    Worry ye not, plenty of 0-60mph in 3.4s experts to be found.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,230
    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    Thanks, I was actually aware of it being an ITV show giving awards to ITV shows and presenters having seen it previously 🙄

    My commentary was more about the voters. I never said it was a surprise.

    Glad you enjoyed the Molly Mae show thing.
    I've never watched it but I watched Freddie and Rob's shows. Great shows but not likely to be anyones favourite.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,074

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    Thanks, I was actually aware of it being an ITV show giving awards to ITV shows and presenters having seen it previously 🙄

    My commentary was more about the voters. I never said it was a surprise.

    Glad you enjoyed the Molly Mae show thing.
    I've never watched it but I watched Freddie and Rob's shows. Great shows but not likely to be anyones favourite.
    Given some people would have voted for them they would be some people’s favourite.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,124

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,043

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
    Im tempted to try the 1086 but need to win the lottery first.

    I had a really enjoyable Gusborne rose a few weeks back and not bank breaking either.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,020
    Starmer will have dodged a bullet if it’s Phillipson (though I am not overly impressed by her as a politician). If it’s Powell it’ll be mildly embarrassing given that he just sacked her.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    No, you just need to move from the BBC to iTV to host a new game show.
  • My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Indeed. Where is the Prime Ministerial voice on Continental affairs and daily news ?

    It's sad, but not, particularly, our story. Just another example of our satellite status.
    Probably a consequence of the terrible language skills of the average Englishman. It makes us think that we're more like America/Australia than we are and masks quite how European we are.

    And until the USA went utterly batso in a way that couldn't be ignored, it didn't really matter.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,074
    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
    Im tempted to try the 1086 but need to win the lottery first.

    I had a really enjoyable Gusborne rose a few weeks back and not bank breaking either.
    Try texting WIN to ITV daytime. May work.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Only time will tell

    However I note there are roughly 400 MPs most of whom havent a chance of a government post and Starmer does little to motivate the troops. So we either have 400 sheep bleating 4 leags good or there will be a pool of disquiet which eventually will make its voice heard.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,074
    edited September 11

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
    Im tempted to try the 1086 but need to win the lottery first.

    I had a really enjoyable Gusborne rose a few weeks back and not bank breaking either.
    For non ESW aficionados 1086 is the prestige cuvée from Nyetimber that proved English wine could achieve Veblen goods status. I also have baulked at the price.

    I’ve yet to try (or visit) Domaine Evremond which I really must do as it’s also just over the hill from me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,124
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    It isn't unprecedented. Callaghan appointed Jay as US ambassador 50 years ago, but giving a political chum famous for his dark arts, and connections to the rich as US ambassador was never likely to end well.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    Taz said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
    Im tempted to try the 1086 but need to win the lottery first.

    I had a really enjoyable Gusborne rose a few weeks back and not bank breaking either.
    Try texting WIN to ITV daytime. May work.
    I tried to win the mobile van on GB News, I was going to donate it to the SNP

    Theyre short of one
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,636
    edited September 11
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Indeed. British television and film is a case in point, to the extent that most people already don't remember what came before.

    That's not to say that some things haven't been welcome, but the move has been much too strong, and unexamined.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,074
    edited September 11

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Indeed. British television and film is s case in point, to thr extent that most people already don't remember what came before.
    Like calling a series a season, as my children insist on doing?

    Imagine how it must now feel for the average French person, seeing the Anglosphere inexorably gaining ground over popular discourse. At first they resist, and eventually overcome by fatigue they succumb.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,060
    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,248
    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    The media want a fight and will highlight the so called stitch up . I like Phillipson but find her a bit wooden , Powell I’ve never really rated but even if she wins with the membership it would hardly be a calamity for No 10 who are busy trashing what’s left of the Labour brand all by themselves .
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,045
    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    I'm in the same boat. Though I suspect in the case of at least two of those my ignorance is entirely justified by their inconsequentiality.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,636
    edited September 11
    Or adopting the pace of American dramas and documentaries, as we started to do from the end of the 1980's onwards. The French have kept much more of their own idiosyncrasy, despite their problems with ethnocultural relations and courtesy issues.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    @JasonGroves1

    Former Labour frontbencher Andy McDonald says there is ‘widespread revulsion’ in the Labour Party about the Mandelson revelations and calls for him to go immediately: ‘There isn’t anybody in the Labour Party who is supporting Peter Mandelson today and the PM has to hear that’
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,043
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    A cheap shot if ever i've seen one
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,761
    edited September 11
    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Obama:
    We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.

    I just find this weird.

    The USA is an endemically violent country where they kill nearly 100k people per annum with their guns and their cars, including scores killed in school shootings.

    Of course violence has a place in US democracy, because that is the society they chose to create. I don't want it to have a place, but Trump is deliberately seeking to create further a culture of violence and conflict - starting with his defence of hundreds of millions of guns loose in the society, never mind his animation of the violent attack on Congress, and the rest.

    If I'm being straightforward, I'd say that Kirk reaped the whirlwind his own politics had helped seed.

    To have public figures - even Obama - retreating into delusional schmaltz is not exactly going to help fix it. MSNBC have already sacked two reporters who went a bit too close to the bone - Matthew Dowd.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,043
    edited September 11
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=linneker+and+cascoine+walkers+ad#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e13395e0,vid:Z8OLuUjXbsI,st:0

    Helping someone down on their luck?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    Roger said:

    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    A cheap shot if ever i've seen one
    Agreed

    He should have said a greasy sportsman selling snack to youngsters
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    @EmilyThornberry

    I'm deeply grateful to all the Labour members who have shared their support.

    But I have decided to withdraw.

    It has been a privilege to take part in this race with such brilliant women.

    I will always be committed to this party and do everything I can to make it successful.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,707
    edited September 11
    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    https://x.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1966033971437080652
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051
    Where on earth did Labour find Mike Tapp ?

    I was expecting him to say Gary Glitter was our new ambassador to Russia
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    https://x.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1966033971437080652

    Boo,

    I was hoping she might make this an interesting contest.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,871
    RIP Charlie Kirk. Someone who did his best to talk to people with whom he disagreed. Assassinated in cold blood at a public event aged only 31, leaving behind a wife and two young children.

    Best comment seen so far, from Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks, a similar character to Kirk on the left of US politics.

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/1966005802084479210

    A while back I put out these rules for the internet. 1. When we disagree, we fight. 2. We have a beer afterward. 3. When we agree, we unite. I got a lot of flack, surprisingly, for the line about the beer. People would ask, "Oh yeah, would you have a beer with Charlie Kirk?!"

    Well, I did. And I'm glad I did, because now I won't get to. Yes, Charlie and I disagreed a lot and about really important things. But somehow we didn't lose our humanity. We were still fellow Americans.

    We can all choose to hate each other now. That's a normal, human reaction. We can choose to blame each other, and I'm sure we will, endlessly. Or we can defy the voices of division in the country, and have a beer together. This time, in grief.

    If you really want to strike back at whoever did this, listen to each other instead of hating one another. They want us to hate each other. Treating one another as brothers and sisters, as a united America, would be a historic act of defiance.

    Since I'm on the left, I'll go first. For everyone on the right, and most especially the Kirk family, I am so sorry for your loss. I share your grief and I want you to know our hearts are with you!
  • Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    https://x.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1966033971437080652

    Boo,

    I was hoping she might make this an interesting contest.
    If I were Farage and the Tories I would be very happy.

    The idea that Labour go into the next election with a leader and deputy leader who are both lawyers would have scared me and led to another Labour landslide.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,248
    Trump normalised political violence with his rhetoric and his statement completely ignored the recent murders of the two Democrats in Minnesota.

    He is pouring more fuel on the flames . The rights view is political violence is okay if directed at Democrats.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,456
    edited September 11
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Obama:
    We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.

    I just find this weird.

    The USA is an endemically violent country where they kill nearly 100k people per annum with their guns and their cars, including scores killed in school shootings.

    Of course violence has a place in US democracy, because that is the society they chose to create. I don't want it to have a place, but Trump is deliberately seeking to create further a culture of violence and conflict - starting with his defence of hundreds of millions of guns loose in the society, never mind his animation of the violent attack on Congress, and the rest.

    If I'm being straightforward, I'd say that Kirk reaped the whirlwind his own politics had helped seed.

    To have public figures - even Obama - retreating into delusional schmaltz is not exactly going to help fix it.
    In all seriousness, what do you expect a former President to say after the horrific, shocking and public murder of a fairly significant political figure?

    Look, anyone who knows anything about Charlie Kirk knows the bloke was hardly Ghandi - he was a divisive character and there is irony in some of his past statements around gun control in the past (astonishingly callous stuff after a school shooting that a few deaths are a price worth paying for the freedom to bear arms). But now is hardly the time for senior figures to comment on those aspects; it would simply inflame tensions when that's the last thing that is needed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,761
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Obama:
    We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.

    I just find this weird.

    The USA is an endemically violent country where they kill nearly 100k people per annum with their guns and their cars, including scores killed in school shootings.

    Of course violence has a place in US democracy, because that is the society they chose to create. I don't want it to have a place, but Trump is deliberately seeking to create further a culture of violence and conflict - starting with his defence of hundreds of millions of guns loose in the society, never mind his animation of the violent attack on Congress, and the rest.

    If I'm being straightforward, I'd say that Kirk reaped the whirlwind his own politics had helped seed.

    To have public figures - even Obama - retreating into delusional schmaltz is not exactly going to help fix it. MSNBC have already sacked two reporters who went a bit too close to the bone - Matthew Dowd.
    Timed out. That's one reporter not two.

    I'd also draw a contrast with the intense relaxation in the USA about killing or abusing "others", whether putting innocent people in gulags or killing foreigners , as an illustration of the double standards at the heart of the culture, which cannot be healthy.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,230
    edited September 11

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    https://x.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1966033971437080652

    Did she hit 20 nominations? Edit she had 13 with less than a day to go...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,051

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    Emily Thornberry withdraws from the deputy leader race.

    https://x.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1966033971437080652

    Boo,

    I was hoping she might make this an interesting contest.
    If I were Farage and the Tories I would be very happy.

    The idea that Labour go into the next election with a leader and deputy leader who are both lawyers would have scared me and led to another Labour landslide.
    No

    Miss Piggy trying to wrap herself in a St Georges flag would simply emphasis how far Labour have lost touch with their roots. Bootle nailed on so to speak.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    @MindOfKB

    We interrupt the shooting at a college to bring you news of a shooting at a high school.

    This is America.

    https://x.com/MindOfKB/status/1965879095692275849
  • eekeek Posts: 31,230
    Worth saying that on X - Tommy many names is being promoted in the What Elon wants to happen feed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,871

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Good to see the British beating the French at their own game, and getting recognition for it.

    Yes Nyetimeber is a very nice bottle of sparking wine.
  • ..

    Or adopting the pace of American dramas and documentaries, as we started to do from the end of the 1980's onwards. The French have kept much more of their own idiosyncrasy, despite their problems with ethnocultural relations and courtesy issues.

    On that topic, if anyone has time to fill they could do worse than the French series Dark Hearts recently finished on BBC4 . Required machsimo vibe but in an idiosyncratic French way and probably less than any Bravo Two Zero type bollocks, also action scenes pretty good. Always good to get a different take of the middle east bourach.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,124
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    They were great ads, playing well on Gary's "goodie two shoes" image*.

    There's a Leicester side to it too. Gary's dad had a fruit stall in Leicester market just a couple of hundred yards from where Walkers butchers is. In the late 1940s Walkers diversified into making crisps, and the rest is history. Walkers is still a major employer locally, and Gary's remembers his roots. A top bloke in my book.

    *famously never getting carded for example.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    eek said:

    Worth saying that on X - Tommy many names is being promoted in the What Elon wants to happen feed.

    Also worth saying that Grok was telling people the shooting was fake after the event
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,351
    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Classy indeed. I adore the Joan Baez song, "The President sang amazing grace". https://www.bing.com/search?qs=NM&pq=and+the+president+sang+ama&sk=CSYN1&sc=14-26&pglt=297&q=the+president+sang+amazing+grace&cvid=0ac3c9ddc0fe4cf98a22c773bc08c23b&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIARAAGEAyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQABhAMgYIAhAAGEAyBggDEAAYQDIGCAQQABhAMgYIBRAAGEAyBggGEAAYQDIGCAcQABhAMgYICBAAGEDSAQkxNjMyOWowajGoAgCwAgA&FORM=ANNTA1&adppc=EDGEESS&PC=HCTS

    But no words could say what must be said
    For all the living and the dead
    So on that day and in that place
    The President sang Amazing Grace
    The President sang Amazing Grace

    He was not a brilliant administrator, he didn't get nearly enough done but he never seemed to lack the right words for the occasion.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,109
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Trying to work out who if anyone in the UK is the equivalent of Kirk, Walsh and Shapiro.

    Tommy perhaps. Katie. Owen.

    Okay not too tricky.

    I don't think there is a British equivalent really. Kirk fancied himself as a debater and intellectual, rather than the street agitator style of Robinson. British Right Wing Populism doesn't have the intellectual foundations of MAGA, centered as it is in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.
    Dan Hannan, Peter Hitchens, most GB news presenters, even Clarkson or Kelvin McKenzie
    None of those are "centered in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.".

    Nor did any build their following but setting up an organisation to proselytise on college campuses.

    UK politics doesn't really have an equivalent of that US style conservatism, and we are better for it.

    Possibly a nearer thing (and it's still not really comparable) might be Tommy Robinson.
    What an interesting question.

    Maga is not centered on "Evangelical Christianity"; that is just a skin, and they have put it through a filter to exclude the parts that don't fit with an "America first" worldview. Recall how frightened and vicious Trump and Vance were when Bishop Budde reminded them that "mercy" and 'caring for the refugee' are Christian (and Evangelical Christian) values.

    Evangelical Christianity has gone through a filter in Maga in the same way as the Dutch Reformed Church ended up justifying apartheid - the tradition of say Hegseth is similar, embracing women as subservient and so on. There' an 'intellectual' justification too, which is easier to fall for in the American context - Manifest Destiny and the rest of the self-justifying garbage, which is met even amongst liberals ("the USA is the best country in the world" etc).

    Remember that Martin Luther King was an Evangelical Christian (Baptist Minister); it's never as simple as we would like.

    On UK equivalents, I'd go for someone more intellectual than a street thug like Tommy Robinson, since Turning Point targets universities and young adults. Perhaps a better equivalent is Matt Gooodwin or someone attached to Natcon or in the Free Speech Union or anti-abortion circles. There's a whole zoo of Right-fringe organisations trying to be intellectual, but I don't know any figures who have made it.

    I don't know eg a younger populist version of Douglas Murray, who might qualify. Most of the Evangelicals on the political right in the UK do not seem to go down that route, and pull back towards more useful emphases (eg Steve Barclay); they sort of self-triangulate and avoid the rabbit hole. That's partly to do with UK evanglicals being far more integrated.

    Does Paul Marshall have any programmes for developing thought leaders?
    Asinine drivel

    Buon Giorno from the Barbargia of Sardinia!
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,248
    Sandpit said:

    RIP Charlie Kirk. Someone who did his best to talk to people with whom he disagreed. Assassinated in cold blood at a public event aged only 31, leaving behind a wife and two young children.

    Best comment seen so far, from Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks, a similar character to Kirk on the left of US politics.

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/1966005802084479210

    A while back I put out these rules for the internet. 1. When we disagree, we fight. 2. We have a beer afterward. 3. When we agree, we unite. I got a lot of flack, surprisingly, for the line about the beer. People would ask, "Oh yeah, would you have a beer with Charlie Kirk?!"

    Well, I did. And I'm glad I did, because now I won't get to. Yes, Charlie and I disagreed a lot and about really important things. But somehow we didn't lose our humanity. We were still fellow Americans.

    We can all choose to hate each other now. That's a normal, human reaction. We can choose to blame each other, and I'm sure we will, endlessly. Or we can defy the voices of division in the country, and have a beer together. This time, in grief.

    If you really want to strike back at whoever did this, listen to each other instead of hating one another. They want us to hate each other. Treating one another as brothers and sisters, as a united America, would be a historic act of defiance.

    Since I'm on the left, I'll go first. For everyone on the right, and most especially the Kirk family, I am so sorry for your loss. I share your grief and I want you to know our hearts are with you!

    That all sounds very laudable but won’t happen . Beneath Kirk’s more intellectual room for debate and discussion were a series of horribly divisive comments aimed at different communities.

    In a normal society people don’t get shot for this , the USA is far from normal . Politicians saying this isn’t who we are is laughable .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,871
    edited September 11
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Given what’s come out in the last 24 hours, Mandy’s got no chance of holding on to that position.

    Trump very clearly and publicly disassociated himself from Epstein before his first conviction, and is very unlikely to want to have anything to do with someone who’s just been exposed as a good friend and supporter well after he was imprisoned.

    Starmer might want to see this, as his predecessor’s advisor once said, as a good day to bury bad news in the US.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,248
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Given what’s come out in the last 24 hours, Mandy’s got no chance of holding on to that position.

    Trump very clearly and publicly disassociated himself from Epstein before his first conviction, and is very unlikely to want to have anything to do with someone who’s just been exposed as a good friend and supporter well after he was imprisoned.

    Starmer might want to see this, as his predecessor’s advisor once said, as a good day to bury bad news in the US.
    Let’s hope then Trump tells his lapdog Starmer to fire Mandelson . No 10 seems to be telling everyone that they can’t fire him until after the state visit . If he’s not gone before hand then he won’t be going at all as the media will get bored of the story and the pressure on Starmer to get rid of him will fall .
  • DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Classy indeed. I adore the Joan Baez song, "The President sang amazing grace". https://www.bing.com/search?qs=NM&pq=and+the+president+sang+ama&sk=CSYN1&sc=14-26&pglt=297&q=the+president+sang+amazing+grace&cvid=0ac3c9ddc0fe4cf98a22c773bc08c23b&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIARAAGEAyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQABhAMgYIAhAAGEAyBggDEAAYQDIGCAQQABhAMgYIBRAAGEAyBggGEAAYQDIGCAcQABhAMgYICBAAGEDSAQkxNjMyOWowajGoAgCwAgA&FORM=ANNTA1&adppc=EDGEESS&PC=HCTS

    But no words could say what must be said
    For all the living and the dead
    So on that day and in that place
    The President sang Amazing Grace
    The President sang Amazing Grace

    He was not a brilliant administrator, he didn't get nearly enough done but he never seemed to lack the right words for the occasion.
    Thankfully there are no politicians that ALWAYS lack the right words for the occasion.

    Oh.

    'For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world’s worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we’re seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now.'
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,109
    edited September 11
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    On the other hand I bet you do know what Nyetimber is whereas lots of people dont

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/english-fizz-international-wine-challenge-2025/
    Indeed.

    A good reminder that sometimes a large volume, slickly branded product can also be one of the best quality out there. Especially true in sparking wine.

    Even Nyetimber’s top selling classic cuvée is better than a large proportion of more “artisanal” independent English sparklings. (Not that I would be putting that in my own marketing).

    They’ve got a huge new planting over the hill from me on Chartham Downs.
    Im tempted to try the 1086 but need to win the lottery first.

    I had a really enjoyable Gusborne rose a few weeks back and not bank breaking either.
    For non ESW aficionados 1086 is the prestige cuvée from Nyetimber that proved English wine could achieve Veblen goods status. I also have baulked at the price.

    I’ve yet to try (or visit) Domaine Evremond which I really must do as it’s also just over the hill from me.
    “English fizz” not “ESW”

    It’s my preferred name for the drink - as I’ve said on here - and I’m glad the Telegraph has adopted it
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,266
    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.
  • Foxy said:

    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    They were great ads, playing well on Gary's "goodie two shoes" image*.

    There's a Leicester side to it too. Gary's dad had a fruit stall in Leicester market just a couple of hundred yards from where Walkers butchers is. In the late 1940s Walkers diversified into making crisps, and the rest is history. Walkers is still a major employer locally, and Gary's remembers his roots. A top bloke in my book.

    *famously never getting carded for example.
    I think Lineker himself has commented that he never got carded because he never tackled anyone. That's partly self-deprecating, and he certainly wasn't a dirty player (never got booked for a dive for instance), but it isn't without a grain of truth. In his era, players like him really weren't expected to track back as they are now, so they weren't as often in the sort of situation where they were at high risk of a card.

    Nowadays, forwards are actually quite vulnerable to being carded as they don't time the perfect challenge in the way the best defenders can, but they are expected to give it a go.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,834
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    It isn't unprecedented. Callaghan appointed Jay as US ambassador 50 years ago, but giving a political chum famous for his dark arts, and connections to the rich as US ambassador was never likely to end well.
    When I think of Trump and his coterie “dark arts” and “connections to the rich” sound like very valuable characteristics in an ambassador
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,124
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Trying to work out who if anyone in the UK is the equivalent of Kirk, Walsh and Shapiro.

    Tommy perhaps. Katie. Owen.

    Okay not too tricky.

    I don't think there is a British equivalent really. Kirk fancied himself as a debater and intellectual, rather than the street agitator style of Robinson. British Right Wing Populism doesn't have the intellectual foundations of MAGA, centered as it is in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.
    Dan Hannan, Peter Hitchens, most GB news presenters, even Clarkson or Kelvin McKenzie
    None of those are "centered in Evangelical Christianity, Guns and White supremacy.".

    Nor did any build their following but setting up an organisation to proselytise on college campuses.

    UK politics doesn't really have an equivalent of that US style conservatism, and we are better for it.

    Possibly a nearer thing (and it's still not really comparable) might be Tommy Robinson.
    What an interesting question.

    Maga is not centered on "Evangelical Christianity"; that is just a skin, and they have put it through a filter to exclude the parts that don't fit with an "America first" worldview. Recall how frightened and vicious Trump and Vance were when Bishop Budde reminded them that "mercy" and 'caring for the refugee' are Christian (and Evangelical Christian) values.

    Evangelical Christianity has gone through a filter in Maga in the same way as the Dutch Reformed Church ended up justifying apartheid - the tradition of say Hegseth is similar, embracing women as subservient and so on. There' an 'intellectual' justification too, which is easier to fall for in the American context - Manifest Destiny and the rest of the self-justifying garbage, which is met even amongst liberals ("the USA is the best country in the world" etc).

    Remember that Martin Luther King was an Evangelical Christian (Baptist Minister); it's never as simple as we would like.

    On UK equivalents, I'd go for someone more intellectual than a street thug like Tommy Robinson, since Turning Point targets universities and young adults. Perhaps a better equivalent is Matt Gooodwin or someone attached to Natcon or in the Free Speech Union or anti-abortion circles. There's a whole zoo of Right-fringe organisations trying to be intellectual, but I don't know any figures who have made it.

    I don't know eg a younger populist version of Douglas Murray, who might qualify. Most of the Evangelicals on the political right in the UK do not seem to go down that route, and pull back towards more useful emphases (eg Steve Barclay); they sort of self-triangulate and avoid the rabbit hole. That's partly to do with UK evanglicals being far more integrated.

    Does Paul Marshall have any programmes for developing thought leaders?
    I am a Christian and also don't like American style Evangelicalism, but it is very much part of the MAGA appeal. The support is mutual, with Evangelicalism there boosting MAGA and vice versa.

    I am sure that you remember my header in October '24 on how they are linked, but for others:

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/09/22/they-shall-take-up-serpents-god-guns-abortion-and-trump/
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Obama:
    We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.

    I just find this weird.

    The USA is an endemically violent country where they kill nearly 100k people per annum with their guns and their cars, including scores killed in school shootings.

    Of course violence has a place in US democracy, because that is the society they chose to create. I don't want it to have a place, but Trump is deliberately seeking to create further a culture of violence and conflict - starting with his defence of hundreds of millions of guns loose in the society, never mind his animation of the violent attack on Congress, and the rest.

    If I'm being straightforward, I'd say that Kirk reaped the whirlwind his own politics had helped seed.

    To have public figures - even Obama - retreating into delusional schmaltz is not exactly going to help fix it. MSNBC have already sacked two reporters who went a bit too close to the bone - Matthew Dowd.

    Sacked for victim blaiming actually.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,791
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Obama with a classy statement on the death of Kirk, C

    https://x.com/barackobama/status/1965889591090753651?s=61

    Obama:
    We don’t yet know what motivated the person who shot and killed Charlie Kirk, but this kind of despicable violence has no place in our democracy. Michelle and I will be praying for Charlie’s family tonight, especially his wife Erika and their two young children.

    I just find this weird.

    The USA is an endemically violent country where they kill nearly 100k people per annum with their guns and their cars, including scores killed in school shootings.

    Of course violence has a place in US democracy, because that is the society they chose to create. I don't want it to have a place, but Trump is deliberately seeking to create further a culture of violence and conflict - starting with his defence of hundreds of millions of guns loose in the society, never mind his animation of the violent attack on Congress, and the rest.

    If I'm being straightforward, I'd say that Kirk reaped the whirlwind his own politics had helped seed.

    To have public figures - even Obama - retreating into delusional schmaltz is not exactly going to help fix it. MSNBC have already sacked two reporters who went a bit too close to the bone - Matthew Dowd.

    Indeed. Someone is shot dead in the USA roughly every ten minutes (about half are suicides involving guns, tbf), and someone is shot dead by a police officer in the USA roughly every eight hours.

    What are the chances that Trump will respond with a sensible clampdown on gun ownership??
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,012
    Right, I’ve got seven batches of wine to bottle and some shopping to do.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    Foxy said:

    I am a Christian and also don't like American style Evangelicalism, but it is very much part of the MAGA appeal. The support is mutual, with Evangelicalism there boosting MAGA and vice versa.

    Yes, the white supremacists really do think they're on a mission from God
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,871
    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    Encourage drug companies to invest in the UK by making drugs more expensive to the NHS, isn’t quite as good of an argument as he thinks it is.

    As someone who supports a more diversified healthcare system in general, possibly the single biggest advantage of the NHS structure is the ability to negotiate in bulk with key suppliers.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,456
    edited September 11
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Given what’s come out in the last 24 hours, Mandy’s got no chance of holding on to that position.

    Trump very clearly and publicly disassociated himself from Epstein before his first conviction, and is very unlikely to want to have anything to do with someone who’s just been exposed as a good friend and supporter well after he was imprisoned.

    Starmer might want to see this, as his predecessor’s advisor once said, as a good day to bury bad news in the US.
    On a point of accuracy Jo Moore, the advisor who said "a good day to bury bad news", wasn't an advisor to Starmer's predecessor, Tony Blair. She was an advisor to the Transport Secretary, Stephen Byers.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,133
    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    Phew that is a relief. I'm not feeling so stupid now. All over my head. I didn't even have a vague sense re Charlie Kirk.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,164
    @kitty_donaldson

    Significant that now the minister sent out to defend the government this morning - Immigration Minister Mike Tapp - won’t defend UK Ambo to Washington Peter Mandelson staying in post in an interview with
    @Emmabarnett
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,445
    edited September 11
    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    PAra 4 must be largely down to Brexit - before, approval would have been automatically done by the EU system, rather than the newish UK system. Nothing we can do about Brexit in the short or medium term, though, so that's therefore a problem without a solution, unless we join in the EU system. Any chance of that?

    Edit: but it's all the more likely the Tories and Reform won't discuss it, for that very reason. So another bad sign.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,266
    Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    Encourage drug companies to invest in the UK by making drugs more expensive to the NHS, isn’t quite as good of an argument as he thinks it is.

    As someone who supports a more diversified healthcare system in general, possibly the single biggest advantage of the NHS structure is the ability to negotiate in bulk with key suppliers.
    It’s all very well having bulk but if it ends up costing the drug companies more than other countries then you can surely understand that they aren’t going to prioritise the UK.

    The drug companies do not need to invest in the UK and if it’s a country where things are not made easy to do business, not attractive to highly paid senior staff, difficult to get planning to build and develop and then you are being made to hand back double what Germany gets back then it’s not great is it.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,963
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    It isn't unprecedented. Callaghan appointed Jay as US ambassador 50 years ago, but giving a political chum famous for his dark arts, and connections to the rich as US ambassador was never likely to end well.
    I thought that was the point, and therefore there is no reason to sack the bloke now. All the ... stuff ... was already factored in.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,137
    FPT...


    Boris Johnson
    @BorisJohnson
    The murder of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy, and a sign of the utter desperation and cowardice of those who could not defeat him in argument. Charlie Kirk has been killed not for espousing extremist views - because he didn’t. He has been killed for saying things that used to be simple common sense. He has been killed because he had the courage to stand up publicly for reasonable opinions held by millions and millions of ordinary people both in the US and Britain. The world has a shining new martyr to free speech.

    Kirk once said, "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them." It is a bad thing that he was killed. He is not, however, someone who was just "saying things that used to be simple common sense". He was a political extremist.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,124
    Scott_xP said:

    Foxy said:

    I am a Christian and also don't like American style Evangelicalism, but it is very much part of the MAGA appeal. The support is mutual, with Evangelicalism there boosting MAGA and vice versa.

    Yes, the white supremacists really do think they're on a mission from God
    One of the interesting developments in American Evangelicalism is that as it has moved from backwoods Appallachia to the suburbs of cities in every state it has developed an increasing following amongst Latinos and Black Americans. While there certainly are great racial divisions in worship (very much true in the UK too) Evangelicalism is against that trend. At least it was until last year, whether that trend has continued I dont know, but it is linked to the increasing Trump vote in Black and Latino communities.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,445
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    My thoughts this evening are with the loved ones of Charlie Kirk.

    It is heartbreaking that a young family has been robbed of a father and a husband.

    We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear - there can be no justification for political violence.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1965896152345415805

    While agreeing with the sentiments, what concern is it of the British Prime Minister that someone has been shot in America? Or is this the price our ambassador recommends for keeping tariffs at bay?

    And that bit – We must all be free to debate openly and freely without fear – might come back to haunt him.

    Your post on the last thread about Lineker's award ought to teach Starmer a lesson. That you don't have to be a vacuous principle free zone to to get the support of the public
    The principle of a sportsman selling greasy snacks to youngsters?
    Fresh vegetables and fruit, actually.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,779
    Scott_xP said:

    @JasonGroves1

    Former Labour frontbencher Andy McDonald says there is ‘widespread revulsion’ in the Labour Party about the Mandelson revelations and calls for him to go immediately: ‘There isn’t anybody in the Labour Party who is supporting Peter Mandelson today and the PM has to hear that’

    That's not correct. Clearly Mandelson was unreasonably loyal to his friend beyond common sense. But it doesn't mean he's not the right ambassador to the current US. Probably best to get the Trump visit over with and then see.
  • Sandpit said:

    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    Encourage drug companies to invest in the UK by making drugs more expensive to the NHS, isn’t quite as good of an argument as he thinks it is.

    As someone who supports a more diversified healthcare system in general, possibly the single biggest advantage of the NHS structure is the ability to negotiate in bulk with key suppliers.
    It doesn't particularly matter if it's a good argument or not. Most of life isn't about the rightness or quality of arguments. It's about power.

    The NHS has quite a lot of power to.forve down its costs by being a near-monosopy. (Another reason why tiny hospital and school trusts may be costly.)

    Drug companies have the power to locate their research bases wherever they want. Every action has a reaction.

    The only question is where we want to pay. For the drugs or for the research bases.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,834
    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    NICE makes recommendations on a QALY basis.

    If a new product doesn’t hit a suitable threshold for its proposed price then why should patients expect it. Fine to tweak the formula, but I am missing out on the government buying me a new gulfstream and that makes me very angry!

    Pharma used to love the PPRS. It allows them to maintain prices on innovative new drugs at the cost of reducing prices on off patent products. They are just taking advantage of a perceived weak government
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,137
    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    PAra 4 must be largely down to Brexit - before, approval would have been automatically done by the EU system, rather than the newish UK system. Nothing we can do about Brexit in the short or medium term, though, so that's therefore a problem without a solution, unless we join in the EU system. Any chance of that?

    Edit: but it's all the more likely the Tories and Reform won't discuss it, for that very reason. So another bad sign.
    There have been (small, cautious) moves towards a degree of regulatory alignment between the EU, UK, US and Canada. I can't see us joining the EU system, but we could align our systems such that it's less work to go from one to the other.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,095
    edited September 11

    Where on earth did Labour find Mike Tapp ?

    I was expecting him to say Gary Glitter was our new ambassador to Russia

    Good morning

    Last night on the immigration debate on Sky he wore a union jack tie so much a tradition for labour politicians

    This morning, again on Sky, he was evasive about Mandelson being asked to attend FO affairs committee and even said everything is out now about Mandelson

    I am very much in agreement with Labour mps and others that Mandelson has to go now

    Epstein v Trump - cannot control Trump's position

    Epstein v Andrew - ostracised by society

    Epstein v Mandelson - cannot be moved because it may upset Trump

    Since when have we lost our moral compass?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,266
    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    PAra 4 must be largely down to Brexit - before, approval would have been automatically done by the EU system, rather than the newish UK system. Nothing we can do about Brexit in the short or medium term, though, so that's therefore a problem without a solution, unless we join in the EU system. Any chance of that?

    Edit: but it's all the more likely the Tories and Reform won't discuss it, for that very reason. So another bad sign.
    I seem to recall they lumped that in with the ultimate problem of the rebate, can’t remember them mentioning Brexit and the end of joint Uk/EU approval but might be wrong.

    They also were both agitated by the lack of investment and what it ultimately costs the UK, the comparison of ARM was used in how much it was valued after it was bought out of the UK and that the UK benefited from about 1% of that uplift and they also brought up another new pharma that is now worth 10b but was a British venture with British research but all the financial benefit went to the US as there wasn’t the investment here.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,445
    kjh said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    From the NTA’s.

    This is the great British Public for you.



    Freddie Flintoff - Nearly Died
    Rob Burrow - Died
    Strictly Amy - Living with cancer
    Molly Mae - Split up with her boyfriend

    Which one wins the NTA… absolute bollocks #ntaawards


    https://x.com/jord9393/status/1965884420617023623?s=61

    An award show that is voted for by ITV viewers giving a number of awards to ITV programs and presenters - it's not a surprise.

    Also Molly Mae's show was a lighter touch with a large audience than the other programs.
    I’m having a day of ignorance the last 24 hours. I didn’t know who Charlie Kirk was save a vague sense he was someone American, I’d no idea what the NTA was until this post, and I’ve never heard of Mollie Mae.
    Phew that is a relief. I'm not feeling so stupid now. All over my head. I didn't even have a vague sense re Charlie Kirk.
    I thought Mollie Mae was some sort of mortgage banking system.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,812
    edited September 11
    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    Struggling to follow this logic. Is the pricing model used by the NHS really what determines how pharma companies locate their research and manufacturing facilities? I'd have thought the two were almost entirely disconnected; we import and export plenty of drugs, and use drugs researched elsewhere in the world.

    To my mind these are two seperate - and important - issues.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,834
    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Good discussion on Today in the 6.30 ish business segment re the Merck pull-out from the UK. Highlights were that both guests (one a pharma analyst and the other was Sir Nigel Wilson, Life Sciences Industrial Strategy Implementation Board and is a member of the Science and Innovation Council.

    Wilson said that he had spoken to Reeves last night at the FT drinks and is certain she understands the problem and has plans. He was remarkably comfortable with how easy it will be to encourage pension funds etc to invest in UK pharma/research by pulling a few levers.

    Both were however also adamant that the UK needs to fix its pricing model with pharma companies as it’s going to drive them all away. Apparently we need to get the rebate the gov gets down to single figure % as it’s 23% currently and vastly higher than any other countries. This in itself I guess will cause other problems as it’s money I would assume goes back into the NHS which needs replacing.

    The other problem with the high rebate was that a lot of drug companies were not releasing new drugs to the UK because the cost benefit wasn’t worth it for them and so UK patients are missing out.

    This needs much more discussion by the likes of the opposition in order to make sure Reeves has to do something to fix it in the autumn budget. Maybe if Mandy quits, as he should, politicians could spend their time in this instead. Boring for us but ultimately better.

    PAra 4 must be largely down to Brexit - before, approval would have been automatically done by the EU system, rather than the newish UK system. Nothing we can do about Brexit in the short or medium term, though, so that's therefore a problem without a solution, unless we join in the EU system. Any chance of that?

    Edit: but it's all the more likely the Tories and Reform won't discuss it, for that very reason. So another bad sign.
    Para 4 is nothing to do with Brexit. There is a different between EMA/MHRA (which approved drugs) and NICE (which recommends to the NHs whether to buy them or not)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,192
    ...
    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    So today we find out how fixed the Labour DL contest has become.

    Would be ironic if DL means that some up and coming keen type misses out on the top job if Starmer loses it…
    Starmer is desperately trying to stabilise the ship, burt if Philipson wins he will have an element of muttering on the backbenches of a fix, if he loses he probably has to live with a thorn in his side. But does he care ? Probably beyond that now.
    I don't think so. It looks like Phillipson vs Powell, but Phillipson has a lot of backbench support too.

    It's notable that Thornberry and Ribero-Addy got just a handful of nominations, and those from the usual suspects. It doesn't look like either a major fight or a stitch up.

    The Mandleson affair was very foolish of Starmer. I posted here on the folly of appointing him at the time. It was a job for a career diplomat who has been trained for it. This isn't America where ambassadorships are handed out as payback for political favours.
    Every few years the ratchet moves a further notch, and we adopt yet more American ways of doing things. Not a good direction of travel.

    And now BBC pundits saying they can’t sack Mandelson because it might upset Trump. Incredible.
    Given what’s come out in the last 24 hours, Mandy’s got no chance of holding on to that position.

    Trump very clearly and publicly disassociated himself from Epstein before his first conviction, and is very unlikely to want to have anything to do with someone who’s just been exposed as a good friend and supporter well after he was imprisoned.

    Starmer might want to see this, as his predecessor’s advisor once said, as a good day to bury bad news in the US.
    With a diplomatic slant like that you should be the next Ambassador.

    Trump only disassociated himself from Epstein because of a duplicitous real estate deal. Trump may or may not have settled the score by informing the FBI on Epstein's activities.

    I don't believe as you are implying Trump unhitched himself from Epstein because he was outraged at the child sex trafficking which to that point he had been unaware of.
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