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About Liz Truss wanting to return to frontline politics – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,665
edited September 6 in General
About Liz Truss wanting to return to frontline politics – politicalbetting.com

Only 7% of Britons – including just 9% of Conservatives – think it would be a good thing for Liz Truss to return to frontline politics, following her telling Sky News that she would never rule it outGood thing: 7%Neither a good nor bad thing: 17%Bad thing: 60%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890
    edited September 6
    First unlike Rayner
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    I'm genuinely surprised at that figure. Liz Truss returning to frontline politics for Reform sounds like a truly excellent idea to me.
  • Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,940
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    Perish the thought, Return of the Clootie Dumpling at a cinema near you soon
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,148
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    Of course she will. Mandelson did three sackings and returned each time 'more powerful than you can ever imagine'*

    *One for Sunil
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,537
    5th, like the proportion of rent-free head space given over to Liz Truss in a certain type of PBer's brain.
  • Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,976

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Exactly that. Farage would be a prize idiot letting her in.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    And further to that if Truss ran for Reform in her SW Norfolk it would be an enormous Tory gain (Reform likely gain it as we stand)
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890
    edited September 6
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    I’m sure the middle class centrist dads will be nutting in their Y-fronts the very thought.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890
    edited September 6

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Be interesting to see how Unite manoeuvres ?

    Nadia Whittome, this is your time
  • Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,019
    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    She took one for the team. Farage's fannies have been relegated to the inside pages on the weekend of their big bun fight. An altruistic sacrifice if ever I saw one.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    She took one for the team. Farage's fannies have been relegated to the inside pages on the weekend of their big bun fight. An altruistic sacrifice if ever I saw one.
    So noble

    She truly is the people’s princess.
  • Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    The Corbynites won't clear the 80 MP nomination bar.

    The welfare rebels might.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    Of course she will. Mandelson did three sackings and returned each time 'more powerful than you can ever imagine'*

    *One for Sunil
    If she goes down the media route, with newspaper columns, TV appearances, maybe a podcast, will she even be able to afford to come back to government?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,289
    edited September 6
    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding those limits are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    The members are going to go for one of the “Palestine” mob, aren’t they?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    They seem quite keen on taking anyone, but i dont think theyd take Truss tbf. The premise of the thread is possibly flawed therefore
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    I didn't say Corbyn so no need to be rude
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding them are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    Room for manoeuvre is only limited if you need to borrow.

    There is a lot of freedom in a balanced budget, or one in surplus.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,236
    Morning all :)

    It's a bit like your football club re-hiring a manager who brought unmitigated disaster and relegation in the expectation it might be different this time.

    I don't know what a "return to frontline politics" looks like. Assuming she can find a constituency who will take her, could she serve in a future Conservative Government - sorry, "future Conservative Government" - I should go on the stage with lines like that.

    We already hear plenty from Boris Johnson via his tedious writings in the Mail but most of the other former PMs still with us (and it's a motley crew comprising of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak - how often have eight former Prime Ministers been alive at the same time?) tend to stay more on the sidelines. I know Cameron was FS in the Sunak Government but the FS role isn't what it was in all honesty as the PM drives most foreign policy for reasons I mentioned yesterday. Sunak is still an MP but keeps in the background.

    Some of the above can wear the mantle of "elder statesman" with conviction - certainly true of Major, Blair and Brown as they keep reminding us how much better everything was when they were in charge - certainly the cones hotline pales into insignificance beside our current issues in all fairness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,019
    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    A former Conservative Prime Minister in name alone carries an awful lot of heft.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,763
    FPT

    Fishing said:

    Eabhal said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    Can Steve Reed build more houses than Angie?

    Other than small boats this government will rise or fall on this surely.

    It's only a small proportion of the country that worries about housing costs. On average they are the lowest they have been since the '80s. I think a crash in prices is actually more of a risk to them than the opposite, particularly in London/SE if they introduce a property value tax and people start worrying about negative equity.

    I think the NHS is a much bigger risk. But all of this is trumped by a general sense of inertia.


    Are they?
    There is a crucial distinction between house prices and housing costs.

    For a start, you have 35%ish of the country that own their property outright. Then you have another 30% who own with a mortgage - they got hammered a bit during the period with high interest rates, but most people with a mortgage do not spend a particularly high proportion of their income on housing. For both these groups, high house prices are a good thing - they are an asset, not a liability or a cost.

    Then you have social renters - 15%. A mixed picture, sometimes good, might not want to buy. And then private renters - another 15%. Not all private rents are insanely high - that tends to be an issue in the big cities, not our towns, and not all private renters want to buy anyway (e.g. students).

    So you're not left with many people for whom lower house prices is a good thing (and particularly not in the main voting cohorts), nor many people with particularly high housing costs. There are broader societal/economic reasons why you might want to change this, but ultimately this is why housing is not a major issue in the polling.
    That's largely wrong.

    For many of those who own their own place, even outright, high house prices are a bad thing, as they want to upgrade in the future. And even if they don't, again for many, high house prices are neutral, as those gains will be on paper forever. And even if house prices are neutral for older homeowners, many will have to fork over fortunes if they want to help their children get on the housing ladder.

    Private rent is determined in large part by the cost of housing, (though other factors such as government regulations also play a part), so reducing property prices would reduce the cost of rent. Students may not want to buy now (though I'm not sure about that - I once visited a friend at business school where housing was very cheap and finance readily available and he said that many of his classmates had bought a place for the two years and would then sell it or rent it out when they moved on) but they are likely to in a few years.

    And of course there are costs throughout the economy because of high property prices generally, of which high house prices are an important component, though most people won't recognise those.

    I think the reason housing doesn't feature is not that more people wouldn't benefit from lower house prices, just as they would benefit from lower food or energy prices, it's that both governing parties have been equally crap about this for a generation and nobody seriously expects either of them to sort it out.
    Both main parties in Ireland have been monumentally useless over housing, but people in Ireland are still furious about the issue.

    I wonder whether in Britain it has been tied up with the immigration issue. Britons may believe the argument that the housing crisis is primarily a crisis created by immigration, and so they're furious about immigration, whereas in Ireland people are more focused on the lack of supply.
    Yep, there's that too. Housebuilding in your area:
    • Deflates the value of your most valuable asset
    • Puts more pressure on your local services
    • Wrecks the nice view across the fields
    • Puts you at risk of negative equity (if you have a mortgage)
    • Is only necessary due to the Boriswave (in the public's eye)
    • and even private renters are rightly deeply sceptical that housebuilding will solve the problem - it certainly hasn't in Edinburgh and the Lothians, which has had the fastest housebuilding programme pretty much anywhere. All it's done is facilitate even faster population growth, including students.
    I think this is one of those topics where people have a vague sense that housebuilding is good for the country, but the NIMBYism is very strong and frankly rational. It's only in some city centres where you are going to get a degree of local support for it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811
    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding them are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    The ticking up of the 30-year bond rate should be the clue. Rachel is going to have to announce tax rises and spending cuts, significant amounts of both, otherwise that trend will continue.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,763

    5th, like the proportion of rent-free head space given over to Liz Truss in a certain type of PBer's brain.

    PBers with a mortgage?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,985
    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,958

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Aberconwy uaed to be a Tory seat. If its Tories are now voting for one socialist party to keep another socialist party out because they have given up hope on a party they like winning it, then the party is essentially dead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,849
    I predict (FWIW) that the only way Truss returns to "politics" would be as a future Reform peer.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    No, defections dont move the dial. Charlie Kennedy didnt play a blinder in 2005 because he got the Brian Sedgemoor voters and Gordon Brown didnt get swamped by millions of Quentin Davies fans
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    Rosena Allin-Khan wants to stand, apparently. I imagine she will be the sole candidate of the left if she does.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,289
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding them are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    The ticking up of the 30-year bond rate should be the clue. Rachel is going to have to announce tax rises and spending cuts, significant amounts of both, otherwise that trend will continue.
    But she won't because her party will not tolerate cuts and Starmer was too pathetic to face them down. So, even more tax cuts. We are seriously thinking about doing something extra on the pension before the budget.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890

    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    A former Conservative Prime Minister in name alone carries an awful lot of heft.
    Not this one I suspect
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    No, defections dont move the dial. Charlie Kennedy didnt play a blinder in 2005 because he got the Brian Sedgemoor voters and Gordon Brown didnt get swamped by millions of Quentin Davies fans
    The latter sounds like quite a painful experience.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding them are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    The ticking up of the 30-year bond rate should be the clue. Rachel is going to have to announce tax rises and spending cuts, significant amounts of both, otherwise that trend will continue.
    But she won't because her party will not tolerate cuts and Starmer was too pathetic to face them down. So, even more tax cuts. We are seriously thinking about doing something extra on the pension before the budget.
    Do you mean tax rises? Lettuce not go down the path of tax cuts and spending increases.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,624
    edited September 6
    That would be fun.

    She needs to come in leading a formation of war chariots from East Angular down the A11, with her slogan "I see? Nah!" tattooed on her brow, and carrying the heads of her defeated opponents, having taken her Corona Fizzical to prove that she is still Adequately Fizzy Lizzy.

    (Who is Liz's enemy today, by the way?)

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,602
    edited September 6
    There was some discussion on pb around the time of the Suella speculation that Reform might be an attractive vehicle once Nigel Farage (61, booze and fags) is a year or two from stepping down. The prospect of a Reform government might have changed the calculus a bit, but any would-be big beast joining too early risks being ousted by Farage who does not like sharing the spotlight. (There are parallels across the pond.)

    ETA so for Liz Truss, maybe but not yet.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,019
    edited September 6
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    A former Conservative Prime Minister in name alone carries an awful lot of heft.
    Not this one I suspect
    No I think the narrative is helpful even as it is the second worst Tory Prime Minister in history. Now if they could snag the worst one too, that would be a real coup.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    A former Conservative Prime Minister in name alone carries an awful lot of heft.
    Not this one I suspect
    What was the joke when Benedict launched the Ordinariate? 'Give us your racists and homophobes.'

    In the case of Truss, Dorries and Jones, it's 'give us your discredited failures.'
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,360
    edited September 6
    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    She got no legal advice, that was the whole problem, despite being told twice by the conveyancer to do so.

    As for who was leaking and to whom. Actually if you follow the timeline, it was spread around a bit, somebody tipped of the Sun / Mail about her house purchase, then the Telegraph about the tax, then the Guardian about the lawyers / conveyancer she has used over the past few years for the trust, her Ashton house sale and the purchase of the house in Hove.

    Very few people will have known all these pieces of the jigsaw. But kept laying out the breadcrumbs for the media to follow so they couldn't miss.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    Rosena Allin-Khan wants to stand, apparently. I imagine she will be the sole candidate of the left if she does.
    A good choice. She is a good media performer and moderate left.

    I was thinking someone from further north. Phillipson another possibility, or the return of Haigh.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,065
    Yes if Truss returns to politics it will likely be after defecting to Reform. Ideologically she is more on the libertarian wing of Reform than a traditional Tory
  • Nigelb said:

    I predict (FWIW) that the only way Truss returns to "politics" would be as a future Reform peer.

    And the same for Dorries. The problem for them (and all other defectors) is that Farage has a number of favours to repay, come the ReformUK Government. He has friends, allies and paymasters (especially paymasters) who all need to be put in the House of Lords before he can get around to former opponents who are all on record as having said rude things about him.

    Defecting to RefUK in the hope of getting a peerage is not a pragmatic strategy.
  • I want to echo Sadiq Khan's important recognition of Ange's brilliance in "always backing what cities like London can achieve"

    I love wholesome word salad
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    Rosena Allin-Khan wants to stand, apparently. I imagine she will be the sole candidate of the left if she does.
    A good choice. She is a good media performer and moderate left.

    I was thinking someone from further north. Phillipson another possibility, or the return of Haigh.

    The phone in candidate?
  • Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Aberconwy uaed to be a Tory seat. If its Tories are now voting for one socialist party to keep another socialist party out because they have given up hope on a party they like winning it, then the party is essentially dead.
    At present that seems likely and I actively campaigned for the conservatives from 1966 including being the election campaign driver for the late Lord Wyn Roberts [ and utterly delightful Welsh conservative] to David Jones in 2010

    If the dial does move more favourable to the conservatives here then of course I will vote conservative

  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,624
    edited September 6

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Exactly that. Farage would be a prize idiot letting her in.
    He let Mad Nad in, and paraded her as the first amongst a breed of experienced Cabinet Level politicians.

    Farage's concern would be whether Truss was a threat to his personal position, unlike Nadine Dorries.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,065

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Plaid would prop up a Labour government, the only way to remove Labour is to vote Tory or Reform
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,012
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding them are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    The ticking up of the 30-year bond rate should be the clue. Rachel is going to have to announce tax rises and spending cuts, significant amounts of both, otherwise that trend will continue.
    But she won't because her party will not tolerate cuts and Starmer was too pathetic to face them down. So, even more tax cuts. We are seriously thinking about doing something extra on the pension before the budget.
    The good news is the bond rate has just ticked down a bit thanks to Mandy’s mate in the white house. Woeful US jobs figures yesterday. Rachel will be praying for a bit more disastrous US economic news between now and November.
  • In the TRiP Rayner reaction podcast, AC mentions in passing meeting Telegraph editor Chris Evans at the cricket on Wednesday, and Evans saying that Conservatives would always be phoning with ideas and offers to write, but now there is nothing from anyone apart from Robert Jenrick.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMiWIH4v9ik&t=1810s

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    No, defections dont move the dial. Charlie Kennedy didnt play a blinder in 2005 because he got the Brian Sedgemoor voters and Gordon Brown didnt get swamped by millions of Quentin Davies fans
    I think the nutcases are following the voters in their defections, not leading them.

    If you are a mediocre Tory councillor in a place like Leics jumping ship to Reform is a way to keep your seat. If a failed Tory ex-MP it is the most likely way back
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811

    Taz said:

    Good morning all of the peoples.
    Truss joining Reform would be a catalyst for their polling decline. Opinion on her and the events of Sept Oct 2022 are now fixed.
    Ergo Nogo

    Why would Reform want her ?
    A former Conservative Prime Minister in name alone carries an awful lot of heft.
    She’s making bank on the US Conservative conference and speaking circuit, where the nature of her short period of office and ousting actually works to her advantage.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,043
    edited September 6
    Bloody hell, this has the air of a dinner held by Stalin for all the heads of USSR tractor manufacture, circa 1937, except Stalin wasn't an open mouthed, orange nitwit.

    'Yes, I think we can all agree, Comrade Stalin has a deep understanding of the advantages of an enclosed cabin on the S-65!'

    https://x.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1963967994352083282
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    edited September 6

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Surely the Tories are equally placed in your constituency as challenger to Labour at westminster?
    And at Senedd level in that pair under PR the Tories need to stay ahead of Labour to both guarantee their seat of the 6 and ensure Labour dont get a second seat (which is unlikely anyway). If thats what the primary concern is i mean.
    Not that id dream of telling you hiw to vote, i just dint quite get how a tactical Plaid vote helps you
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,855
    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    Rosena Allin-Khan wants to stand, apparently. I imagine she will be the sole candidate of the left if she does.
    A good choice. She is a good media performer and moderate left.

    I was thinking someone from further north. Phillipson another possibility, or the return of Haigh.

    The phone in candidate?
    Yes, she was one of the more dynamic and best performing of Starmers first cabinet.
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Plaid would prop up a Labour government, the only way to remove Labour is to vote Tory or Reform
    Not so - it would be the other way round and with Labour likely to be a toxic partner for Plaid
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    No, defections dont move the dial. Charlie Kennedy didnt play a blinder in 2005 because he got the Brian Sedgemoor voters and Gordon Brown didnt get swamped by millions of Quentin Davies fans
    I think the nutcases are following the voters in their defections, not leading them.

    If you are a mediocre Tory councillor in a place like Leics jumping ship to Reform is a way to keep your seat. If a failed Tory ex-MP it is the most likely way back
    Sure, no argument, but thats not defectors taking their voters with them
  • Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Surely the Tories are equally placed in your constituency as challenger to Labour?
    And at Senedd level in that pair under PR the Tories need to stay ahead of Labour to both guarantee their seat of the 6 and ensure Labour dont get a second seat (which is unlikely anyway). If thats what the primary concern is i mean.
    Not that id dream of telling you hiw to vote, i just dint quite get how a tactical Plaid vote helps you
    I will vote conservative in the Senedd election next year but the present trajectory is not good and Plaid do have a chance of beating labour as does Reform but I will not vote Reform
  • Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Agreed
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190

    Bloody hell, this has the air of a dinner held by Stalin for all the heads of USSR tractor manufacture, circa 1937, except Stalin wasn't an open mouthed, orange nitwit.

    'Yes, I think we can all agree, Comrade Stalin has a deep understanding of the advantages of an enclosed cabin on the S-65!'

    https://x.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1963967994352083282

    To be fair, the one who referred to Trump's incredible leadership wasn't wrong.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,136
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    First unlike Rayner

    Second like Rayners second coming. She will be back...
    The problem labour face now is the election of the next deputy leader with Corbynites eyeing the position

    Labour are facing the prospect of a very divisive time within their ranks
    Corbyn is no longer in Labour, haven't you noticed?

    I don't know who will win the Deputy Leader race, but don't expect the contest to be divisive.

    Nominees need 20% of the MPs to support their nominations, so it will be a small field and unlikely to have only a small faction behind them. Likely to be female too. Nandy a possibility as she came close last time.

    Rosena Allin-Khan wants to stand, apparently. I imagine she will be the sole candidate of the left if she does.
    A good choice. She is a good media performer and moderate left.

    I was thinking someone from further north. Phillipson another possibility, or the return of Haigh.

    The phone in candidate?
    Yes, she was one of the more dynamic and best performing of Starmers first cabinet.
    She’d be a great choice , I hope she goes for it .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811

    Nigelb said:

    I predict (FWIW) that the only way Truss returns to "politics" would be as a future Reform peer.

    And the same for Dorries. The problem for them (and all other defectors) is that Farage has a number of favours to repay, come the ReformUK Government. He has friends, allies and paymasters (especially paymasters) who all need to be put in the House of Lords before he can get around to former opponents who are all on record as having said rude things about him.

    Defecting to RefUK in the hope of getting a peerage is not a pragmatic strategy.
    To counter that, if it starts to look like Reform might actually form a government, having a few MP candidates with experience of being in government can only add credibility to the party. Government needs around 25 Secretaries of State and 100 ministers in place, they can’t all be Parlimentary rookies.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,019
    edited September 6
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
    She called Tories "scum" including national treasures like Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman, Priti Patel, Andrea Jenkyns, Andrea Leadsom and Robert Jenrick*.

    Hanging is too good for her!

    * Do we think she meant Farage, Tice, Oakeshott, Anderson and Lowe too?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
    She called Tories "scum" including national treasures like Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman, Priti Patel, Andrea Jenkyns, Andrea Leadsom and Robert Jenrick.

    Hanging is too good for her!
    Indeed.

    There were many scum who were very upset with that comparison.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,813

    Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Surely the Tories are equally placed in your constituency as challenger to Labour?
    And at Senedd level in that pair under PR the Tories need to stay ahead of Labour to both guarantee their seat of the 6 and ensure Labour dont get a second seat (which is unlikely anyway). If thats what the primary concern is i mean.
    Not that id dream of telling you hiw to vote, i just dint quite get how a tactical Plaid vote helps you
    I will vote conservative in the Senedd election next year but the present trajectory is not good and Plaid do have a chance of beating labour as does Reform but I will not vote Reform
    I think at Senedd youll end up either 2xPC 2xRef 1xLab 1xCon or 3xPC 1 each the other 3 out of interest
    Next GE is a long march away so good luck when it comes with the right pick!
  • This is the most accurate map of Britain ever.


  • stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    Truss taught us a valuable lesson: that the room for manoeuvre of a UK government is quite limited and that the penalties for exceeding those limits are harsh. It is the reluctance of politicians of all stripes to accept the value of that lesson that I find painful.

    Come on, that lesson was learned in September 1992, it had just been forgotten.

    It had also been taught in the 60s and 70s as well - devaluation anyone?

    France learned it in the Mitterrand Presidency - the truth is the scope for Govenrments to be "radical" pace Asquith, Attlee and Thatcher has been vastly reduced by globalisation and the new inter dependencies of trade, debt management and so on. That's why Governments end up doing nothing but that's about all they can do.

    Every time we discuss trying to reduce the deficit on here for example, we end up with some numpty advocating the wholesale slashing of pensions and benefits - for many people that's all they have. There are many rich pensioners but not all pensioners are rich. They are many poor hard working people but not all working people are poor or work hard - that's the problem when you try policy making by generalisation, misconception or prejudice.
    Maybe there aren't radical new ideas that are better ways of running nations than Butskellism- just incremental fettling. It's possible that regulated freeish enterprises paying taxes to fund social goods is the big-picture optimum, and everything else to the left or right is objectively worse.

    "This is as good as it gets" can either be a statement of despair or contentment, depending on the intonation.

    (It's more complicated than that, I know. There's shades from Butler to Gaitskell. There's also the question of how that works when squillionaires opt out of the bits of society that involve them paying taxes but not the bits that allow them to make profits. And some of our current contentment comes from taking from the future, both financially and ecologically. We shouldn't be doing that, really.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190

    This is the most accurate map of Britain ever.


    Didn't you live in Manchester for a bit? 🤔
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell, this has the air of a dinner held by Stalin for all the heads of USSR tractor manufacture, circa 1937, except Stalin wasn't an open mouthed, orange nitwit.

    'Yes, I think we can all agree, Comrade Stalin has a deep understanding of the advantages of an enclosed cabin on the S-65!'

    https://x.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1963967994352083282

    To be fair, the one who referred to Trump's incredible leadership wasn't wrong.
    I hope they were taking notes on electric boat safety in shark infested waters.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,190
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Bloody hell, this has the air of a dinner held by Stalin for all the heads of USSR tractor manufacture, circa 1937, except Stalin wasn't an open mouthed, orange nitwit.

    'Yes, I think we can all agree, Comrade Stalin has a deep understanding of the advantages of an enclosed cabin on the S-65!'

    https://x.com/I_amMukhtar/status/1963967994352083282

    To be fair, the one who referred to Trump's incredible leadership wasn't wrong.
    I hope they were taking notes on electric boat safety in shark infested waters.
    Battery on a salt.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,208
    Eabhal said:

    FPT

    Fishing said:

    Eabhal said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    Can Steve Reed build more houses than Angie?

    Other than small boats this government will rise or fall on this surely.

    It's only a small proportion of the country that worries about housing costs. On average they are the lowest they have been since the '80s. I think a crash in prices is actually more of a risk to them than the opposite, particularly in London/SE if they introduce a property value tax and people start worrying about negative equity.

    I think the NHS is a much bigger risk. But all of this is trumped by a general sense of inertia.


    Are they?
    There is a crucial distinction between house prices and housing costs.

    For a start, you have 35%ish of the country that own their property outright. Then you have another 30% who own with a mortgage - they got hammered a bit during the period with high interest rates, but most people with a mortgage do not spend a particularly high proportion of their income on housing. For both these groups, high house prices are a good thing - they are an asset, not a liability or a cost.

    Then you have social renters - 15%. A mixed picture, sometimes good, might not want to buy. And then private renters - another 15%. Not all private rents are insanely high - that tends to be an issue in the big cities, not our towns, and not all private renters want to buy anyway (e.g. students).

    So you're not left with many people for whom lower house prices is a good thing (and particularly not in the main voting cohorts), nor many people with particularly high housing costs. There are broader societal/economic reasons why you might want to change this, but ultimately this is why housing is not a major issue in the polling.
    That's largely wrong.

    For many of those who own their own place, even outright, high house prices are a bad thing, as they want to upgrade in the future. And even if they don't, again for many, high house prices are neutral, as those gains will be on paper forever. And even if house prices are neutral for older homeowners, many will have to fork over fortunes if they want to help their children get on the housing ladder.

    Private rent is determined in large part by the cost of housing, (though other factors such as government regulations also play a part), so reducing property prices would reduce the cost of rent. Students may not want to buy now (though I'm not sure about that - I once visited a friend at business school where housing was very cheap and finance readily available and he said that many of his classmates had bought a place for the two years and would then sell it or rent it out when they moved on) but they are likely to in a few years.

    And of course there are costs throughout the economy because of high property prices generally, of which high house prices are an important component, though most people won't recognise those.

    I think the reason housing doesn't feature is not that more people wouldn't benefit from lower house prices, just as they would benefit from lower food or energy prices, it's that both governing parties have been equally crap about this for a generation and nobody seriously expects either of them to sort it out.
    Both main parties in Ireland have been monumentally useless over housing, but people in Ireland are still furious about the issue.

    I wonder whether in Britain it has been tied up with the immigration issue. Britons may believe the argument that the housing crisis is primarily a crisis created by immigration, and so they're furious about immigration, whereas in Ireland people are more focused on the lack of supply.
    Yep, there's that too. Housebuilding in your area:
    • Deflates the value of your most valuable asset
    • Puts more pressure on your local services
    • Wrecks the nice view across the fields
    • Puts you at risk of negative equity (if you have a mortgage)
    • Is only necessary due to the Boriswave (in the public's eye)
    • and even private renters are rightly deeply sceptical that housebuilding will solve the problem - it certainly hasn't in Edinburgh and the Lothians, which has had the fastest housebuilding programme pretty much anywhere. All it's done is facilitate even faster population growth, including students.
    I think this is one of those topics where people have a vague sense that housebuilding is good for the country, but the NIMBYism is very strong and frankly rational. It's only in some city centres where you are going to get a degree of local support for it.
    I was listening about this award winning development on Today this morning which could be a good model for bolting on multiple homes onto existing villages and towns without ballsing them up. Some interesting rules were put in place such as no more than 40% of residents over 65 (think it was 65) to ensure a good mix of people so a proper “community”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpd9l8d03eeo

    https://www.architecture.com/awards-and-competitions-landing-page/awards/riba-regional-awards/riba-south-west-award-winners/2025/hazelmead-bridport-cohousing?srsltid=AfmBOoplvHjcZ0ERK_Ub86e9XzTE1CMliX2bgm88hrWlq0WjXntEutMe
  • Foxy said:

    Truss was a disaster for the conservatives and like Dorries yesterday, I would be delighted if she joined Reform

    The Tory problem is not that their nutcases are joining Reform, it's that they are taking their voters with them.
    I am a quietly contented conservative waiting and watching with interest the way this pans out

    I say no to Reform and Labour, so stay loyal apart from the next GE when I am likely to vote tactically for Plaid to keep labour out
    Surely the Tories are equally placed in your constituency as challenger to Labour?
    And at Senedd level in that pair under PR the Tories need to stay ahead of Labour to both guarantee their seat of the 6 and ensure Labour dont get a second seat (which is unlikely anyway). If thats what the primary concern is i mean.
    Not that id dream of telling you hiw to vote, i just dint quite get how a tactical Plaid vote helps you
    I will vote conservative in the Senedd election next year but the present trajectory is not good and Plaid do have a chance of beating labour as does Reform but I will not vote Reform
    I think at Senedd youll end up either 2xPC 2xRef 1xLab 1xCon or 3xPC 1 each the other 3 out of interest
    Next GE is a long march away so good luck when it comes with the right pick!
    Thank you

    Our Conservative MS is a friend and has been an excellent MS for our constituency and I hope she is re-elected next May
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956
    edited September 6

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
    She called Tories "scum" including national treasures like Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Nadine Dorries, Suella Braverman, Priti Patel, Andrea Jenkyns, Andrea Leadsom and Robert Jenrick*.

    Hanging is too good for her!

    * Do we think she meant Farage, Tice, Oakeshott, Anderson and Lowe too?
    Surely "scum" isn't a very accurate description? Scum is a thin film on the surface, not the entire body of foul rank smelling fluid.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,490
    You’d think Truss would get the message, after seeing a 43% swing against her, in 2024.
  • ydoethur said:

    This is the most accurate map of Britain ever.


    Didn't you live in Manchester for a bit? 🤔
    That was for work, like one of those preachers from Britain in the 19th century trying to civilise the natives in Africa.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,050

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    I don't think Rayner did deny wrongdoing. She fessed up, and wanted to pay the £40k. And she promptly and quite graciously accepted the findings of the Independent Adviser, falling on her sword immediately and admitting she'd been negligent.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811
    edited September 6

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    I don't think Rayner did deny wrongdoing. She fessed up, and wanted to pay the £40k. And she promptly and quite graciously accepted the findings of the Independent Adviser, falling on her sword immediately and admitting she'd been negligent.
    If she’d put her hand up immediately, rather than trying to deflect blame onto others, she might have got away with resigning the Housing portfolio.

    But she didn’t do that, she doubled down and doubled down again for a fortnight, until her position was untenable and it was clear she’d screwed up.

    Her longstanding reputation for very unparliamentary language against opponents, calling them scum and demanding resignations for the most minor of perceived infractions, ensured that both they and the media weren’t going to drop the story, and are over the moon today that the massive hypocrite got binned.
  • Sean_F said:

    You’d think Truss would get the message, after seeing a 43% swing against her, in 2024.

    It's possible that a lot of Truss's actions are about putting a protective barrier between herself and that message.

    Someone ought to be gently but firmly escorting her off the stage.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,798
    Is there nobody in Truss's close circle of friends who can sit her down and say "Liz, luv, it's over. Move on with your life."

    Sad.
  • Trevor Phillips of Sky suggest the winners from yesterday are Shabana Mahmood and Pat McFadden

    He expects Mahmood to be much more forceful on immigration and the boats and McFadden on reigning in the welfare budget

    I agree with him and actually quite like both those politicians and appointments

    The bigger question is will labour mps go along with these two important ministers
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I predict (FWIW) that the only way Truss returns to "politics" would be as a future Reform peer.

    And the same for Dorries. The problem for them (and all other defectors) is that Farage has a number of favours to repay, come the ReformUK Government. He has friends, allies and paymasters (especially paymasters) who all need to be put in the House of Lords before he can get around to former opponents who are all on record as having said rude things about him.

    Defecting to RefUK in the hope of getting a peerage is not a pragmatic strategy.
    To counter that, if it starts to look like Reform might actually form a government, having a few MP candidates with experience of being in government can only add credibility to the party. Government needs around 25 Secretaries of State and 100 ministers in place, they can’t all be Parlimentary rookies.
    Yes, I see what you mean, but if Nigel needs a Secretary of State in the Min Ag Fish, who is he going to prefer? An ex-Tory MP or someone who has contributed to party funds with a career in the City and/or property development? There are jsut as many of the latter as the former.
  • Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    I don't think Rayner did deny wrongdoing. She fessed up, and wanted to pay the £40k. And she promptly and quite graciously accepted the findings of the Independent Adviser, falling on her sword immediately and admitting she'd been negligent.
    Rayner was naive and did not do this deliberately

    Her problem was she didn't address it immediately and then blamed her solicitors and of course her own track record of condemning this type of behaviour

    However, I think her supporters need to wonder who was leaking information not just to the Telegraph and Mail but also the Guardian
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,811

    Is there nobody in Truss's close circle of friends who can sit her down and say "Liz, luv, it's over. Move on with your life."

    Sad.

    She’s probably got a couple of years of getting high-five-figure speech payments from the likes of Turning Point USA, can probably make herself a couple of million and then retire off the back of that.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,490
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
    And, most likely, done in by someone in her own party.

    In Parliament, your worst enemies sit beside and behind you.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,640

    Is there nobody in Truss's close circle of friends who can sit her down and say "Liz, luv, it's over. Move on with your life."

    Sad.

    You'd think her husband would, but maybe ........
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,798

    Is there nobody in Truss's close circle of friends who can sit her down and say "Liz, luv, it's over. Move on with your life."

    Sad.

    To be politically even-handed, I hope there are those who will do the same with Rayner. The notion she just has to sit on the sidelines for a bit then return is very misplaced.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,360
    edited September 6

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    I don't think Rayner did deny wrongdoing. She fessed up, and wanted to pay the £40k. And she promptly and quite graciously accepted the findings of the Independent Adviser, falling on her sword immediately and admitting she'd been negligent.
    Rayner was naive and did not do this deliberately

    Her problem was she didn't address it immediately and then blamed her solicitors and of course her own track record of condemning this type of behaviour

    However, I think her supporters need to wonder who was leaking information not just to the Telegraph and Mail but also the Guardian
    I don't think it was a deliberate tax dodge. But it was beyond naive, but it was absolute stupidity. You are a very senior politician who only a few months ago her previous claimed living arrangements got her in a lot of bother. You know you have this complicated set of arrangements, the conveyancer tells you you need to get tax advice, you earn a £160k a year and extremely well connected (see how she managed to get a very expensive KC to review her case at the drop of a hat over a weekend), you pay the money to cover your arse.

    Then what followed sunk her.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,956

    Is there nobody in Truss's close circle of friends who can sit her down and say "Liz, luv, it's over. Move on with your life."

    Sad.

    Her whole life has been politics and climbing the greasy pole. It's why she has gone so bonkers.

    She was a disaster in the only job that she wanted. On a personal level I feel quite sorry for her. Speaking to half empty rooms to in Hicksville Indiana then an empty hotel room and emptier minibar. It's not much of a future.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,236

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    I don't think Rayner did deny wrongdoing. She fessed up, and wanted to pay the £40k. And she promptly and quite graciously accepted the findings of the Independent Adviser, falling on her sword immediately and admitting she'd been negligent.
    Yes but the narrative of those hostile to Rayner is to paint as negative a picture of her as possible to forestall any attempt at rehabilitation in a year or two.

    The fact remains she breached the Ministerial Code and that made her position untenable. Whether said Code is fit for purpose is another question - we want to ensure Government is as free as possible from allegations of corruption or inappropriate influence such as from third party lobbying companies - but the notion complex non-Government related private financial transactions need to be held to such a high standard - well, I understand why many would wish our Ministers to be beyond any kind of reproach especially since the Expenses Scandal - doesn't sit well with me and some latitude for genuine errors should exist (as distinct from deliberate and planned tax evasion).
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,890
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    FPT to Turbotubbs.....

    If I was the suspicious type I might have thought Starmer himself was the lawyer who gave Ange the advice! This has worked out perfectly for him. He's got a shiny new team none of whom eat peas with their knife. From a government POV this couldn't have worked out better. Angie was never up to the job and despite protestations Starmer's much more comfortable without that particular loose cannon swinging around Downing Street.....

    ....No the story is about Ange herself and the snobbery that brought her down. The Telegraph and Mail have been campaigning against her for months. Pure snobbery. Someone on here yesterday called her 'Gobby'. I'm afraid that's what females from her background who are climbing the ladder are having to put up with.It is so depressing.... Just another scalp for some double barrelled nobody at the Telegraph

    If Labour and its supporters tell themselves that "snobbery that brought her down" then they're screwed. Rayner did something minorly wrong, but for a value that is eye-watering for many voters. She denied wrongdoing, and then tried to blame others. She was in denial. All MPs (of all parties, not just Labour) need to learn lessons from this. Many are too thick, or greedy, or self-important, to do so.

    The government's media management, and management of its MPs, is awful. They need to fix this. They need to develop a few simple messages and deliver them effectively. Since Starmer is incapable of the messaging, they need someone else. Lammy isn't it.
    Gosh, the anger against her among people doing their shopping and having a gossip when I was out this morning was palpable.

    And actually in my view somewhat OTT. However, the irony is that she made a career surfing such anger to achieve a high profile, only to fall victim to it herself.
    Your second paragraph is exactly why she deserved to fall. She represents nothing good in his politics is conducted and there are many like her across all parties. Her flagship bills will fail and her house building record in office was poor
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