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This is not a good look for the Deputy Prime Minister – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,660
edited September 3 in General
This is not a good look for the Deputy Prime Minister – politicalbetting.com

Angela Rayner has admitted that she underpaid stamp duty on her £800,000 seaside flat, after coming under intense pressure to be more transparent about her property arrangements.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3
    Of course, this is the second time she has played fast and loose with their living arrangements.

    And of course, she was always first out the gates when the Tories did anything slightly dodgy.

    One thing that seems crazy in his day and age is that you can register to vote in 3 different places and its just trusted that you don't abuse that. I am not suggesting she has or would, just that you can, and that the fact you can do this to aid your claims to your tax situation seems mental.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,626
    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.
  • MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,006
    I doubt Labour members will care but swing voters might. I expect Rayner after an apology and payment of the shortfall in Stamp Duty should survive but she will need to hire a decent tax financial adviser or accountant going forward
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,287
    "Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    I won't shy away from decisions to protect kids, even if there are the predictable cries of nanny state.

    We're stopping shops from selling high-caffeine energy drinks to under 16s, so they can turn up to school ready to learn."

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1963137900167774466
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,308
    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    Morning all.
    Reeves will be a lot more smiley this week then.
    Rayner is done, even if she survives the ethics probe shes burned all her capital with her colleagues who've been defending her like some poor wounded kitten
  • At PMQs, Kemi will probably either go on Father Ted stuff or do a Ronny Rosenthal by trying to smash the ball so hard into the open goal the ball hits the bar.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,920
    It’s another one of those free gear stories that hurts Labour politicians more than the Tories (for the Tories it’s sex and sleaze that causes the issues, for Labour it tends to be money).

    She probably can ride it out if she wants to/Starmer is keen to keep her, but it causes reputational/image issues that the government really didn’t need right now.
  • Disappointed you didn't get a subtle 'Angela's ambitions in ashes?' pun in.

    See I nearly went for Oh Angie, When will those clouds all disappear?
  • Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,037
    It’s all very confusing !

    Do we have any tax experts in here to explain how the trust effected this ?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    Andy_JS said:

    "Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    I won't shy away from decisions to protect kids, even if there are the predictable cries of nanny state.

    We're stopping shops from selling high-caffeine energy drinks to under 16s, so they can turn up to school ready to learn."

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1963137900167774466

    CONES HOTLINE, NOW
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,746

    MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,308

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,229
    nico67 said:

    It’s all very confusing !

    Do we have any tax experts in here to explain how the trust effected this ?

    There's also - as with the previous case - the fact that a lot of information is not in the public sector (at least legally), as it will concern other family members, for instance children.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    edited September 3
    Neil Parrish must think he overdid it by resigning. I mean 40 grand questions versus watching some porn
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    Maybe she got confused like before about where she actually lives and what she has told the council / tax man about it. The tax efficiency experts can only go off what you tell them.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    Andy_JS said:

    "Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    I won't shy away from decisions to protect kids, even if there are the predictable cries of nanny state.

    We're stopping shops from selling high-caffeine energy drinks to under 16s, so they can turn up to school ready to learn."

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1963137900167774466

    What an interfering cadre of little busybodies this government (in addition to the last) have turned out to be.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,129

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
  • MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
    Rayner covers this on her interview with Rigby on Sky

    Stange this has been released just before PMQs


  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,202
    Morning all :)

    It certainly re-enforces the widely held notion of political corruption - the “they’re all at it” syndrome.

    I’m struggling to see active malfeasance to use an American term. I do see confusion and poor advice and I’m sympathetic to the situation with her son.

    She certainly has to pay the correct amount of owed tax and make her own contribution to reducing the deficit but is it a resigning issue? Only if she takes the view her financial affairs are an unnecessary distraction to what the Government is trying to achieve.
  • Neil Parrish must think he overdid it by resigning. I mean 40 grand questions versus watching some porn tractor videos

    Fixed for you ;-)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,308
    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Sounds like she'll be sending a solicitor's letter to her solicitors.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3
    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    I won't shy away from decisions to protect kids, even if there are the predictable cries of nanny state.

    We're stopping shops from selling high-caffeine energy drinks to under 16s, so they can turn up to school ready to learn."

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1963137900167774466

    What an interfering cadre of little busybodies this government (in addition to the last) have turned out to be.
    I predicted this last year when thinking about what the new Labour government will get up to. I think going forward we will continue to get more and more of "government knows best" approach to the way we life our lives.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,746
    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Yes, although I assume those were conveyancing solicitors not trust lawyers and she probably didn’t tell them more than “I don’t own any other houses” - which is true but incomplete

    She is being very unfair her lawyers (a sentence I never thought I would write)
  • isamisam Posts: 42,431
    edited September 3
    MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    That’s her fucked. Snidey tax dodges are for middie aged, white, male Tories in pinstripe suits, not working class, tell it as it is, left wing gobshites
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,992
    End of an era etc.
    His voice has been a little tremulous lately, though still as tenacious as ever when questioning guests.
    They'll probably have Rylan in as a replacement.

    https://x.com/bbcpress/status/1963181324463640667

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It certainly re-enforces the widely held notion of political corruption - the “they’re all at it” syndrome.

    I’m struggling to see active malfeasance to use an American term. I do see confusion and poor advice and I’m sympathetic to the situation with her son.

    She certainly has to pay the correct amount of owed tax and make her own contribution to reducing the deficit but is it a resigning issue? Only if she takes the view her financial affairs are an unnecessary distraction to what the Government is trying to achieve.

    I think the publiics patience with 'it was a mistake' has worn out
    At the very very least she cannot continue in the housing role as she is clearly incompetent if corruption is ruled out
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,920
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It certainly re-enforces the widely held notion of political corruption - the “they’re all at it” syndrome.

    I’m struggling to see active malfeasance to use an American term. I do see confusion and poor advice and I’m sympathetic to the situation with her son.

    She certainly has to pay the correct amount of owed tax and make her own contribution to reducing the deficit but is it a resigning issue? Only if she takes the view her financial affairs are an unnecessary distraction to what the Government is trying to achieve.

    I think that’s probably right but I do again question (as I did with some of the stuff that happened under the dying days of the Tories) how top politicians don’t take a little bit more of a rigorous approach to these things.

    If there was anything that I thought was going on that could cause confusion in my tax affairs I’d probably want something in writing from HMRC telling me it was all OK.
  • Now the real question is who leaked this information to the press and why.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,746

    MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
    Rayner covers this on her interview with Rigby on Sky

    Stange this has been released just before PMQs


    The timing makes sense.

    If Kemi had asked questions, Starmer would have to defend Angela or sack her. The only other option would be “she is going to make a statement this afternoon” which would lead to lots of pressure on him.

    This defangs Kemi’s attack lines
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    End of an era etc.
    His voice has been a little tremulous lately, though still as tenacious as ever when questioning guests.
    They'll probably have Rylan in as a replacement.

    https://x.com/bbcpress/status/1963181324463640667

    Nailed on to be some vapid celeb to try and get da yuff audience.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661

    Now the real question is who leaked this information to the press and why.

    On an entirely unrelated note I saw an interview with Wes Streeting the other day
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,992
    edited September 3

    Now the real question is who leaked this information to the press and why.

    Someone calling themselves Stew Steering I heard.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,229

    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Yes, although I assume those were conveyancing solicitors not trust lawyers and she probably didn’t tell them more than “I don’t own any other houses” - which is true but incomplete

    She is being very unfair her lawyers (a sentence I never thought I would write)
    Depends. Could be a large practice with all the in house specialists, we don't know.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3
    The problem politicians run into with a lot of these stories is the headline is didn't pay £40k in tax. Now in terms of people earning £150k a year and able to afford £800k homes, it isn't mega bucks. But to normal people on average salary, they got WTF, that's like 2 years of my take home wage. The optics always look terrible.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,037
    I really don’t think she was trying to avoid tax . Especially given what happened last year she’d know the right wing papers will always be digging .

    This on the face of it looks like a genuine mistake and if she has written confirmation of the wrong advice then she should release that .
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,981

    MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
    Rayner covers this on her interview with Rigby on Sky

    Stange this has been released just before PMQs
    Why strange? Lance the boil before PMQs. You can then answer any questions at PMQs by referring to the statement made earlier.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,158
    If it was a genuine error, no big deal. If she knowingly misrepresented her situation in order to avoid stamp duty, that's a problem.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,749
    By the time the Labour leadership contest arrives, Streeting will strangely be the only one without a kneecap injury?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,882
    edited September 3

    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Yes, although I assume those were conveyancing solicitors not trust lawyers and she probably didn’t tell them more than “I don’t own any other houses” - which is true but incomplete

    She is being very unfair her lawyers (a sentence I never thought I would write)
    Yes, it depends crucially on whether she told them about the trust & also whether she requested specific legal advice on this question.

    I presume (not being a lawyer familiar with trusts) that the legal issue here is that she continued to have an implied interest in the property in question as she was living in it & not paying market rent?

    Had she simply transferred the property to her husband in the divorce then presumably none of this would have mattered?

    (It also sounds like Raynor’s child might be yet another victim of the appalling state of NHS maternity care we talked about earlier, but for obvious reasons they’ve tried to keep that a private family matter.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,981

    End of an era etc.
    His voice has been a little tremulous lately, though still as tenacious as ever when questioning guests.
    They'll probably have Rylan in as a replacement.

    https://x.com/bbcpress/status/1963181324463640667

    How sad. I love "In Our Time", a great example of what the BBC can do.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,147
    I'm confused. All the talking heads (on all sides) said she'd done nothing wrong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,749
    edited September 3
    FPT
    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    DavidL said:

    In more concrete matters relating to Starmer's future we have just had our 11th consecutive month with manufacturing PMIs below 50, that is indicating a future contraction and the latest figure is one of the worst: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/uk-factories-stumble-as-new-orders-fall-back-pmi-shows/ar-AA1LD3ZA?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=68b69efe1dfd4e56a1a8495a30003596&ei=27

    I may have mentioned our trade deficit from time to time in passing. This really isn't helping. Its time we had a government more focused on the day job.

    The economy is only staying afloat because of services . The latest update to that is due out shortly .
    Yes and to be fair that has largely been the case for 30 years or more. But what we are not seeing is any sign of investment in new production in the UK, any uplift in training, any growth in productivity, any facilitation of growth by removing planning hurdles or otherwise, any attempt to encourage entrepreneurial activity in the UK, it makes you despair. What we got instead was the increase in Employers NI and an above inflation increase in the minimum wage with inevitable consequences for the level of employment.

    It just won't do. Our forthcoming budget needs to focus on growth (as Reeves herself recognised before the election). That means finding ways to boost investment through more generous allowances, encouraging training, not hammering Entrepreneurial Relief or Capital Gains or share based ISAs, looking at why London is struggling to compete in the IPO market, etc etc. I fear we are going to see the reverse as our Chancellor scrabbles around for a few billion more taxes to make her nonsensical targets and kick the can down the road for a few more months.
    My new brainiac IQ 190 squillionaire friend, who was freaking out about the gilts market months ago (presciently) is now freaking out about gilts EVEN MORE

    He says the government is “driving straight into a brick wall”. He thinks the present gilts “crisis” is maybe the markets reacting to Starmer’s “phase 2” speech which didn’t acknowledge the fiscal emergency at all

    He says, as tax rises won’t work, borrowing can’t be done, and the government refuses to cut, we “may become Turkey or Argentina for a bit”

    🫣

    I am no brainiac, nor do I have an IQ of 190, nor, sadly, am I a squillionaire but this is kind of obvious. We are heading towards a fiscal crisis. It is not just that we need to borrow new money at penalty rates, we also have to roll over ever more debt taken out when interest rates were very, very low. 10 year gilts maturing just now were probably borrowed at less than 1%. To replace those borrowed funds we will be borrowing the same money at more than 5%. The cost of our debt is going to be rising for a long time, even if we manage to get current rates down. Every other category of spending is going to be squeezed by this.
    Right, so what do we do? The "cut spending" brigade envisage that the sick and the poor are wasting the money so just take it off them. In reality they are sick and poor and when need remains and you cut the provision you spend more mopping up the various crises you create.

    So we can't cut spending on the front line. We need to cut spending on everything else. How is it that we have an NHS where the budget goes up every year and front line provision shrinks? Its a bonfire burning our cash - and we can't afford to fuel it any more.

    We set up a crisis team during Covid. Massive spike in patients, fewer resources, how do we do things. We need to do the same thing today. We simply cannot afford the vast bureaucracies and overlapping managers that we have in health and education. If that means that we have to make redundant the staff at NHS Trusts and Education Trusts then sobeit.
    When I was at school every local authority (normally the county council) had a team of a dozen, maybe two dozen managers. A 1000 pupil secondary school had a head, a couple of deputies, a Secretary and a caretaker. That was your "non productive" staff, and even then the deputies and even the head taught classes.

    Now we have oversight by Ofsted, we have multi school academy management teams on astronomical salaries (and there are far, far more of them than there were County Council LEAs). Each school has around a dozen non teaching managers/ administrators . The education budget is syphoned off to these people before a student writes their first essay. Do we need all these leeches or can we return to the old model?
    Yet another example of how the Tories really f****d everything up during their long period in office.

    When people think of Tory failure, it's the obvious examples like the borders and boats that come first to mind, along with Brexit - but over many years they've forced re-organisations onto so many public services, and made them all worse...the NHS, schools, the railways, the water industry, energy, the postal service, local government, prisons...

    ...is there anything they actually managed to improve?

    Errr, what? Education was one of the few bright spots. Results have massively improved, for which Mr Gove should rightly be proud.
    You have a point that schools are maybe the exception - according to the IFS, "..of the nine public services we assess in our Performance Tracker series, state-funded schools are alone in having performed better in 2024 than in 2010", although they say that much of this improvement has fallen away since the pandemic, especially for disadvantaged white children, a lot of whom simply aren't turning up.

    Behind the earlier imrovement is also demographics - the rising number of children from Asian parents who take education more seriously (a particular factor behind the London improvement) - and the LibDems' focus on disadvantaged children and schools during the coalition.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,129
    How patronising:

    “ But Starmer says he is “proud” to sit beside Rayner, who is building 1.5m homes and has come from a working class background to be deputy PM.”

  • IanB2 said:

    By the time the Labour leadership contest arrives, Streeting will strangely be the only one without a kneecap injury?

    Perhaps.

    Though he'd have to be pretty foolish to not realise that, if you destroy all your rivals so you can take the leadership, the party won't be worth leading.

    Boris did a version of that, and the Conservatives might never recover.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,308

    Now the real question is who leaked this information to the press and why.

    Sir Keir himself I'm guessing. He's clearly infuriated about how crap his team has been and is on a mission to torch all the dead wood. The Rachel problem will be more difficult, but I'm sure he'll find a way.
  • Now the real question is who leaked this information to the press and why.

    My money is on Sir Sadiq Khan, 10 days ago I warned her about pissing him off and she would experience the wrath of Khan.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/08/24/is-angela-rayner-about-to-experience-the-wrath-of-khan/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,981
    tlg86 said:

    I'm confused. All the talking heads (on all sides) said she'd done nothing wrong.

    I think the talking heads were unaware of the complication around the trust for her son...?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,920
    Keir and Kemi both having a mare at PMQs
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    I once got fined by HMRC, because my accountant at the time messed up. Strangely it didn't wash with them that my accountant hadn't filled some required paperwork in time. Also coincidentally my accountant swiftly found out they were no longer my accountant.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    boulay said:

    How patronising:

    “ But Starmer says he is “proud” to sit beside Rayner, who is building 1.5m homes and has come from a working class background to be deputy PM.”

    Her from Fags to Riches story is heartwarming
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,981

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,780
    Well I didn't see this coming! Interesting to see if she can survive this.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,493
    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    I won't shy away from decisions to protect kids, even if there are the predictable cries of nanny state.

    We're stopping shops from selling high-caffeine energy drinks to under 16s, so they can turn up to school ready to learn."

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1963137900167774466

    What an interfering cadre of little busybodies this government (in addition to the last) have turned out to be.
    They all trigger the "over 18 hang around for the sole staff member" alarm at the supermarkets already, unlike the iced caramel lattes which seem to have more sugar and caffeine.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,086
    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,229
    edited September 3

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    I once got fined by HMRC, because my accountant at the time messed up. Strangely it didn't wash with them that my accountant hadn't filled some required paperwork in time. Also coincidentally my accountant swiftly found out they were no longer my accountant.
    Mind, a friend's father discovered he had paid vast amounts in stamp duty unnecessarily. Because his solicitor had screwed up and hadn't actually put the sale through. So Dad didn't own the house he and the family occupied for a decade. It was only discovered when it was put up for sale and the buyer's solicitor did a due diligence. They were *very* lucky the original putative seller honoured the agreement rather than returning the cash and demanding the now very much more valuable house back.
  • MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
    Yes, having lawyers involved makes things so much better, and she wouldn’t be in this mess.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,229
    edited September 3

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    Selling house in London? Inheritance? You know, like ordinary people in the SE.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,920
    boulay said:

    How patronising:

    “ But Starmer says he is “proud” to sit beside Rayner, who is building 1.5m homes and has come from a working class background to be deputy PM.”

    To be fair to her, she’s doing very well if she’s building all those homes. It’s a wonder she’s able to do anything else, all that bricklaying must be exhausting.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,981

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,920
    Pity poor Rachel (again), her trailed SDLT Reforms are going to hit differently now. Back to the drawing board again at the Treasury?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,229

    MaxPB said:

    Irreparable damage to her reputation. Tories getting caught dodging tax is a trifle and the public accepts it to a certain extent. Labour MPs getting caught is career ending.

    She should resign for her lack of ambition, having to resign for a tax minimisation strategy for £40,000 is embarrassing, think big, and try minimise hundreds of thousands of pounds.
    I honestly think it was a cock up. She would have been asked by her conveyancing solicitor “do you own any other property” and would have ticked “no”. The solicitor would then have calculated the stamp duty due.

    In her position it would have been prudent to consult a trust lawyer but she probably didn’t think of it
    Yes, having lawyers involved makes things so much better, and she wouldn’t be in this mess.
    Not the lawyer my great-aunt had. Lost the will, title deeds, and everything.
  • I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    Some places are offering 5x salary mortgages so she could just about afford it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    Gone by supper.
    Standing down at the next election to spend more time with her new tax advisers.
  • Carnyx said:

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    Selling house in London? Inheritance? You know, like ordinary people in the SE.
    Like me, she’s a working class Northerner.

    Okay, my housing wealth started with me buying a house in London in 2000 but still.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    You obviously forgetting her previous canny use of help to buy so will have equity.....and now earns over £150k a year. She better hope she doesn't lose her job though, otherwise she will be on the "An Evening with ..." circuit telling her life story.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,954

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    Through negligence, through weakness, through our own deliberate fault.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,954
    edited September 3

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    Duplicate
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,493

    nico67 said:

    It’s all very confusing !

    Do we have any tax experts in here to explain how the trust effected this ?

    I’m not a lawyer but

    - the trust owns the house
    - The (minor) children are the beneficiaries
    - I assume she is a settlor
    - The children have a right of lifetime occupation
    - She has an agreement with her ex-husband that she will live there full time part of the year to care for the children
    - Therefore she is deemed to have an interest in another property
    - Which, it seems, is sufficient to trip the second property rules for stamp duty purposes
    That does seem to scupper separation arrangements where the original home is kept for the kids to stay in to minimize the disruption to their lives and the parents rotate in and out from their new homes.
    Admittedly not many people can afford that arrangement, but having to pay 2nd home stamp duty on the new place(s) will mean even fewer can afford it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,158

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    It can't - but the political fallout for fraud would be more serious, compared to a good faith and explicable error, so it does matter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,006
    IanB2 said:

    By the time the Labour leadership contest arrives, Streeting will strangely be the only one without a kneecap injury?

    If before the next general election perhaps if this hits Rayner's ratings.

    If Starmer survives until the next general election and Burnham is elected as an MP again at that election then Burnham would be ahead of Streeting I suspect
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    edited September 3
    kinabalu said:

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    It can't - but the political fallout for fraud would be more serious, compared to a good faith and explicable error, so it does matter.
    I honestly don't think the public have any more patience for 'errors'. This government gas shown zero compassion or leeway to anyone. The vast bulk will want her to pay, politically and career wise.
    I mean if it were corruption she would be gone as an MP and facing prosecution, if a 'thick as mince' issue then her career is at high risk, as it should be as 'housing' minister
  • 'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    Doesn’t matter, this is politics, as I’ve said, perceptions matter more than the facts.

    All the public will see is she avoided £40,000, which is more than plenty of them earn.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,086

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    You obviously forgetting her previous canny use of help to buy so will have equity.....and now earns over £150k a year. She better hope she doesn't lose her job though, otherwise she will be on the "An Evening with ..." circuit telling her life story.
    Does she earn over 150K? I thought the deputy leader of the opposition wasn't on that much.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    My penalty was in the lowest tier but was big enough that Mrs U was informed we would be buying economy bog roll for the forseeable future.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,158

    kinabalu said:

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    It can't - but the political fallout for fraud would be more serious, compared to a good faith and explicable error, so it does matter.
    I honestly do t think the public have any more patience for 'errors'. This government gas shown zero compassion or leeway anyone. The vast bulk will want her to pay, politically and career wise
    I don't know. We'll see. But regardless, as I posted yesterday, this is not Starmer's successor.
  • I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    You obviously forgetting her previous canny use of help to buy so will have equity.....and now earns over £150k a year. She better hope she doesn't lose her job though, otherwise she will be on the "An Evening with ..." circuit telling her life story.
    Does she earn over 150K? I thought the deputy leader of the opposition wasn't on that much.
    Yes, MP salary of £93k and cabinet minister salary of £67k per year.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    It can't - but the political fallout for fraud would be more serious, compared to a good faith and explicable error, so it does matter.
    I honestly do t think the public have any more patience for 'errors'. This government gas shown zero compassion or leeway anyone. The vast bulk will want her to pay, politically and career wise
    I don't know. We'll see. But regardless, as I posted yesterday, this is not Starmer's successor.
    She probably ought to watch her back from everyone she hung out to dry defending her from the ludicrous claims she did anything wrong this last week
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,174
    edited September 3

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    You obviously forgetting her previous canny use of help to buy so will have equity.....and now earns over £150k a year. She better hope she doesn't lose her job though, otherwise she will be on the "An Evening with ..." circuit telling her life story.
    Does she earn over 150K? I thought the deputy leader of the opposition wasn't on that much.
    I thought she gets ~90k for being an MP and ~70k for being a minister?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,701
    Resigning seems overly harsh if the explanation she has given stands.

    Tax law is bloomin' complicated and she says she took legal advice which now seems to be wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,158

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    My penalty was in the lowest tier but was big enough that Mrs U was informed we would be buying economy bog roll for the forseeable future.
    Tight arse.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,882
    edited September 3
    Phil said:

    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Yes, although I assume those were conveyancing solicitors not trust lawyers and she probably didn’t tell them more than “I don’t own any other houses” - which is true but incomplete

    She is being very unfair her lawyers (a sentence I never thought I would write)
    Yes, it depends crucially on whether she told them about the trust & also whether she requested specific legal advice on this question.

    I presume (not being a lawyer familiar with trusts) that the legal issue here is that she continued to have an implied interest in the property in question as she was living in it & not paying market rent?

    Had she simply transferred the property to her husband in the divorce then presumably none of this would have mattered?

    (It also sounds like Raynor’s child might be yet another victim of the appalling state of NHS maternity care we talked about earlier, but for obvious reasons they’ve tried to keep that a private family matter.)
    Dan Neidle links to the relevant section of the law btw: https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/1963192434684285068

    “...A trust in favour of child can deem the parents as still owning the property.”

    All I know about trusts is that they’re a legal nightmare & you need to be taking professional advice any time you go anywhere near them. Worse, you can create the things accidentally without realising, exposing you to all kinds of fun liabilities.

    (Edit: also, that segment of law is written in the most tortuous legalese. There’s no way an ordinary person can be expected to make sense of it.)
  • kinabalu said:

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    My penalty was in the lowest tier but was big enough that Mrs U was informed we would be buying economy bog roll for the forseeable future.
    Tight arse.
    I set em up, you knock em down.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,380

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    A question to which I don't know the answer; What was Rayner's duty and obligation (including via her agents) towards the HMRC?

    Was it to decide herself what was owed and pay it?
    Was it to present the HMRC with the facts and then pay what they assess (subject to the usual appeals)?

    Also

    Is it possible to be culpable and punishable (more than having to cough up payment with interest) if you have taken professional advice on the full facts - and can demonstrate what that advice was - but ultimately that advice was incorrect?

    None of this will assist or condemn Rayner because this is politics, but morally these seem to me the interesting questions.
  • HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    By the time the Labour leadership contest arrives, Streeting will strangely be the only one without a kneecap injury?

    If before the next general election perhaps if this hits Rayner's ratings.

    If Starmer survives until the next general election and Burnham is elected as an MP again at that election then Burnham would be ahead of Streeting I suspect
    The talk is that the Gorton and Denton MP, Andrew Gwynne is looking to stand down when he has found a new job. Burnham is then supposed to be sniffing round to be the by-election candidate.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,037

    'Genuine mistake'
    Im sure thousands will be relieved that any issue uncovered by HMRC etc can be waved away with this defence.

    Generally, most errors in tax payment are dealt with as mistakes and you just pay what was owed (+ interest). Very few cases lead to any prosecution.
    HMRC has a system where penalties can be applied from 0-100% of the underpaid tax. Presumably, they have not yet assessed what to do in this case and may yet apply penalties. The penalty scheme goes...

    lack of reasonable care - the penalty will be between 0% and 30% of the extra tax due
    deliberate - the penalty will be between 20 and 70% of the extra tax due
    deliberate and concealed - the penalty will be between 30 and 100% of the extra tax due
    Doesn’t matter, this is politics, as I’ve said, perceptions matter more than the facts.

    All the public will see is she avoided £40,000, which is more than plenty of them earn.
    She decided to do the trust to help look after her son which any parent would do in these circumstances. Her mistake seems genuine and I hope she can stay on as Deputy PM.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,701
    Dopermean said:

    nico67 said:

    It’s all very confusing !

    Do we have any tax experts in here to explain how the trust effected this ?

    I’m not a lawyer but

    - the trust owns the house
    - The (minor) children are the beneficiaries
    - I assume she is a settlor
    - The children have a right of lifetime occupation
    - She has an agreement with her ex-husband that she will live there full time part of the year to care for the children
    - Therefore she is deemed to have an interest in another property
    - Which, it seems, is sufficient to trip the second property rules for stamp duty purposes
    That does seem to scupper separation arrangements where the original home is kept for the kids to stay in to minimize the disruption to their lives and the parents rotate in and out from their new homes.
    Admittedly not many people can afford that arrangement, but having to pay 2nd home stamp duty on the new place(s) will mean even fewer can afford it.
    File that under the groaning pile of reasons why stamp duty is a stupid tax.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,086

    I'm sure others will know more but how the hell does she afford an 800,000 pound flat? Does the deputy leader of the opposition earn that much?

    You obviously forgetting her previous canny use of help to buy so will have equity.....and now earns over £150k a year. She better hope she doesn't lose her job though, otherwise she will be on the "An Evening with ..." circuit telling her life story.
    Does she earn over 150K? I thought the deputy leader of the opposition wasn't on that much.
    I thought she gets ~90k for being an MP and ~70k for being a minister?
    Fair enough - weirdly I googled opposition posts rather than government...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,701

    Pity poor Rachel (again), her trailed SDLT Reforms are going to hit differently now. Back to the drawing board again at the Treasury?

    Phase Two of the Starmer Years seems to be going well...


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,158
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    boulay said:

    Could she not have just hired a good accountant?

    She did.
    So was she feeding him duff information?
    She’s throwing her original lawyers under the bus in the guardian article:

    “I acknowledge that due to my reliance on advice from lawyers which did not properly take account of these provisions, I did not pay the appropriate stamp duty at the time of the purchase. I am working with expert lawyers and with HMRC to resolve the matter and pay what is due.”
    Yes, although I assume those were conveyancing solicitors not trust lawyers and she probably didn’t tell them more than “I don’t own any other houses” - which is true but incomplete

    She is being very unfair her lawyers (a sentence I never thought I would write)
    Yes, it depends crucially on whether she told them about the trust & also whether she requested specific legal advice on this question.

    I presume (not being a lawyer familiar with trusts) that the legal issue here is that she continued to have an implied interest in the property in question as she was living in it & not paying market rent?

    Had she simply transferred the property to her husband in the divorce then presumably none of this would have mattered?

    (It also sounds like Raynor’s child might be yet another victim of the appalling state of NHS maternity care we talked about earlier, but for obvious reasons they’ve tried to keep that a private family matter.)
    Dan Neidle links to the relevant section of the law btw: https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/1963192434684285068

    “...A trust in favour of child can deem the parents as still owning the property.”

    All I know about trusts is that they’re a legal nightmare & you need to be taking professional advice any time you go anywhere near them. Worse, you can create the things accidentally without realising, exposing you to all kinds of fun liabilities,
    They are to be avoided if at all possible. Always try to keep it simple, don't try to cover every future scenario, no matter how unlikely, and don't assume nobody can be trusted.
  • Pity poor Rachel (again), her trailed SDLT Reforms are going to hit differently now. Back to the drawing board again at the Treasury?

    Phase Two of the Starmer Years seems to be going well...


    Re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-launch same time next week?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,661

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    By the time the Labour leadership contest arrives, Streeting will strangely be the only one without a kneecap injury?

    If before the next general election perhaps if this hits Rayner's ratings.

    If Starmer survives until the next general election and Burnham is elected as an MP again at that election then Burnham would be ahead of Streeting I suspect
    The talk is that the Gorton and Denton MP, Andrew Gwynne is looking to stand down when he has found a new job. Burnham is then supposed to be sniffing round to be the by-election candidate.
    Starner imposes a candidate. No Burnham
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,709
    edited September 3

    Resigning seems overly harsh if the explanation she has given stands.

    Tax law is bloomin' complicated and she says she took legal advice which now seems to be wrong.

    I think the issue is that most people don't have these mad complicated tax affairs. PAYE, your solicitor deals with the rest. Trusts are for tax dodgers will be the instinct.

    Anyway, hopefully this will be the toxic catalyst for actually binning stamp duty once and for all. I live in faint hope that Reeves, with nothing to lose, will actually deliver a transformative budget in - checks calendar - November.
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