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Apologies if this polling triggers Brexiteers – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,615
edited July 30 in General
Apologies if this polling triggers Brexiteers – politicalbetting.com

When did Britain start to go wrong? In @NewStatesman @georgeeaton looks at our polling of when the public think our turn for the worst was. Brexit tops the list, but different voters disagree. Reform voters most likely to pick Blair’s election as putting Britain on wrong track

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,478
    First!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,478
    Second!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,478
    Third!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    FBPE oversampling scandal
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,168
    wooliedyed said:

    FBPE oversampling scandal

    What was OGH's golden rule about polls?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Its obviously the sinking of the Titanic. That's the actual moment the Empire began to die
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,435
    Did Steve Bray hack the More in Common website?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    edited July 30
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    wooliedyed said:

    FBPE oversampling scandal

    What was OGH's golden rule about polls?
    Woolie knows best about polls?
    A poll is just a friend you haven't met yet?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,168
    wooliedyed said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    wooliedyed said:

    FBPE oversampling scandal

    What was OGH's golden rule about polls?
    Woolie knows best about polls?
    A poll is just a friend you haven't met yet?
    A rogue poll is a poll whose findings you don't like.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,509
    Like Tryl and TSE, I am surprised that the global financial crash wasn't picked more often.

    Tories and Reform broadly similar. Labour, LibDems and Greens broadly similar (but LibDems more anti-Trump and less anti-Thatcher).
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    wooliedyed said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    wooliedyed said:

    FBPE oversampling scandal

    What was OGH's golden rule about polls?
    Woolie knows best about polls?
    A poll is just a friend you haven't met yet?
    A rogue poll is a poll whose findings you don't like.
    Im sure it was Woolie knows best but OK. ROGUE IT IS!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT on VPNs

    Would a VPN have protected against the recent Betfair privacy information hack?

    Would a VPN better protect my security credentials on bank accounts and other things?

    (Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand VPNs and people including some on here seem to think they are essential. If the answer to my questions above is 'yes' then why wouldn't I use a VPN (note I would have a paid-for VPN not a free one)?)

    VPN’s are virtual private networks basically they allow you / companies to create a secure connection an external laptop or phone into corporate systems.

    For consumers the important bit is the gateway the VPN has that connects to the rest of the internet. If the gateway is say in Paris to all intents and purposes it looks like you are surfing the internet from a Cafe in Paris rather than you bedroom in Blackpool
    Thanks. What are the downsides other than monthly subscriptions? How do I know I can trust the VPN provider who will presumably have my details? How do I choose between, say, Express, Proton, Nord (I've seen adverts for all three claiming to be the best)?

    Edit: a particular benefit is that - I think - I would be able to access betting sites and BBC iplayer and Now tv and Netflix etc while abroad).
    I finally succumbed to getting Nord, for my travels, having held out for some time. It was a cracking deal, a decent discount from Nord (which I suspect they offer routinely as a sales gambit), with a years cashback from Quidco, so that it’s essentially free for twelve months.

    Yes, you can access Betfair and BBC iPlayer as if you’re at home, if you choose to connect through the UK. You also get adverts on YouTube and the like for whichever country you choose - I quite like the Norwegian adverts as they seem fun, and always short, compared to the annoying English language ones. If you have to endure the ads it adds a little bit of interest.

    Downsides, it does slow things down a little and there are some things you can’t do without pausing the VPN, such as editing Wikipedia, or ordering Waitrose shopping (on my home PC; it seems to work on the iPad). And a few other niggles that I can’t remember.
    Tip for you...connect to Albania when you want to watch YouTube, no ads.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,809
    "Australia to ban YouTube accounts for under 16s in policy u-turn"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-07-30/australia-to-ban-youtube-accounts-for-under-16s
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,168
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT on VPNs

    Would a VPN have protected against the recent Betfair privacy information hack?

    Would a VPN better protect my security credentials on bank accounts and other things?

    (Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand VPNs and people including some on here seem to think they are essential. If the answer to my questions above is 'yes' then why wouldn't I use a VPN (note I would have a paid-for VPN not a free one)?)

    VPN’s are virtual private networks basically they allow you / companies to create a secure connection an external laptop or phone into corporate systems.

    For consumers the important bit is the gateway the VPN has that connects to the rest of the internet. If the gateway is say in Paris to all intents and purposes it looks like you are surfing the internet from a Cafe in Paris rather than you bedroom in Blackpool
    Thanks. What are the downsides other than monthly subscriptions? How do I know I can trust the VPN provider who will presumably have my details? How do I choose between, say, Express, Proton, Nord (I've seen adverts for all three claiming to be the best)?

    Edit: a particular benefit is that - I think - I would be able to access betting sites and BBC iplayer and Now tv and Netflix etc while abroad).
    I finally succumbed to getting Nord, for my travels, having held out for some time. It was a cracking deal, a decent discount from Nord (which I suspect they offer routinely as a sales gambit), with a years cashback from Quidco, so that it’s essentially free for twelve months.

    Yes, you can access Betfair and BBC iPlayer as if you’re at home, if you choose to connect through the UK. You also get adverts on YouTube and the like for whichever country you choose - I quite like the Norwegian adverts as they seem fun, and always short, compared to the annoying English language ones. If you have to endure the ads it adds a little bit of interest.

    Downsides, it does slow things down a little and there are some things you can’t do without pausing the VPN, such as editing Wikipedia, or ordering Waitrose shopping (on my home PC; it seems to work on the iPad). And a few other niggles that I can’t remember.
    Tip for you...connect to Albania when you want to watch YouTube, no ads.
    Cheers, I usually am set to America or Italy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,432
    Note neither Reform nor Tory voters see Brexit as the reason Britain is on the wrong track. Neither do even half of Labour voters.

    Starmer or whoever is Labour leader at the next GE will still be aiming to retain their majority and stop Reform taking the redwall marginals Labour won last year, so they are unlikely to push rejoin or even a closer EEA or CU style relationship. Only if Labour lose their majority and the LDs hold the balance of power would a minority Labour government then be pushed to a closer relationship with the EU such as a CU
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    Andy_JS said:

    "Australia to ban YouTube accounts for under 16s in policy u-turn"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-07-30/australia-to-ban-youtube-accounts-for-under-16s

    As they say, people forget along with the all the prisoners that got sent there, so did the guards.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,354
    wooliedyed said:

    Its obviously the sinking of the Titanic. That's the actual moment the Empire began to die

    Nah, the Second Boer War IMHO
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    edited July 30
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    Absolutely. Iraq invasion is a key moment too, perhaps the 'start' in that respect was 9/11 then.
    Or perhaps the Major Sleaze cabinet - began the break in trust between politicians and electorate, culminating in expenses 08 and reinvigorated under partygate.
    The 80s race riots
    Police vs miners at Orgreave
    Poll tax riots
    The Hong Kong capitulation
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    edited July 30
    It’s a pedantic but important point that “when did things start to go wrong” is a different question to “what’s the main reason Britain is on the wrong track”.

    Many of the big issues we face, such as the consequences of privatisation, foreign ownership of many essentially public services, and the financialisation of the housing market, stem back to the Thatcher era; while the reforms of the 1980s dealt with some big problems inherited from the 60s and 70s, such as unions holding the country to ransom, they also sowed the seeds of enduring national weakness. But selecting that as the main reason Britain is on the wrong track ignores the bigger later factors including Brexit. And the Tories selecting Johnson probably had more toxic consequences for our politics in the round, than Brexit per se. If we had done a ‘Norway for now’ compromise, we wouldn’t be in half as much of a mess.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,214
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    edited July 30
    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
    I guess also since the GFC the likes of the UK have suffered piss poor growth, wages aren't better, etc, while America has still done very well, and obviously the rise of Asia...and of course with the internet we see all of this.

    It is why Magic Grandpa's message lands.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,107
    edited July 30
    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,509
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    Yeah. I see Brexit as being, in particular, a reaction to austerity, which was a reaction to the GFC.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    bondegezou said:

    Like Tryl and TSE, I am surprised that the global financial crash wasn't picked more often.

    Tories and Reform broadly similar. Labour, LibDems and Greens broadly similar (but LibDems more anti-Trump and less anti-Thatcher).

    Surely the GFA is more consequence than cause?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    CatMan said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Its obviously the sinking of the Titanic. That's the actual moment the Empire began to die

    Nah, the Second Boer War IMHO
    The failure of 250,000 troops to defeat some farmers was a bleak moment, as was not getting all the gold
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT on VPNs

    Would a VPN have protected against the recent Betfair privacy information hack?

    Would a VPN better protect my security credentials on bank accounts and other things?

    (Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand VPNs and people including some on here seem to think they are essential. If the answer to my questions above is 'yes' then why wouldn't I use a VPN (note I would have a paid-for VPN not a free one)?)

    VPN’s are virtual private networks basically they allow you / companies to create a secure connection an external laptop or phone into corporate systems.

    For consumers the important bit is the gateway the VPN has that connects to the rest of the internet. If the gateway is say in Paris to all intents and purposes it looks like you are surfing the internet from a Cafe in Paris rather than you bedroom in Blackpool
    Thanks. What are the downsides other than monthly subscriptions? How do I know I can trust the VPN provider who will presumably have my details? How do I choose between, say, Express, Proton, Nord (I've seen adverts for all three claiming to be the best)?

    Edit: a particular benefit is that - I think - I would be able to access betting sites and BBC iplayer and Now tv and Netflix etc while abroad).
    I finally succumbed to getting Nord, for my travels, having held out for some time. It was a cracking deal, a decent discount from Nord (which I suspect they offer routinely as a sales gambit), with a years cashback from Quidco, so that it’s essentially free for twelve months.

    Yes, you can access Betfair and BBC iPlayer as if you’re at home, if you choose to connect through the UK. You also get adverts on YouTube and the like for whichever country you choose - I quite like the Norwegian adverts as they seem fun, and always short, compared to the annoying English language ones. If you have to endure the ads it adds a little bit of interest.

    Downsides, it does slow things down a little and there are some things you can’t do without pausing the VPN, such as editing Wikipedia, or ordering Waitrose shopping (on my home PC; it seems to work on the iPad). And a few other niggles that I can’t remember.
    Tip for you...connect to Albania when you want to watch YouTube, no ads.
    Cheers, I usually am set to America or Italy.
    Why?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    zuck is targeting mira's lab, thinking machines, with offers between $200-$500 million made to a quarter of their team — and one over $1 billion

    “not a single person has taken the offer”

    https://x.com/morqon/status/1950246497758429355
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,168
    IanB2 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT on VPNs

    Would a VPN have protected against the recent Betfair privacy information hack?

    Would a VPN better protect my security credentials on bank accounts and other things?

    (Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand VPNs and people including some on here seem to think they are essential. If the answer to my questions above is 'yes' then why wouldn't I use a VPN (note I would have a paid-for VPN not a free one)?)

    VPN’s are virtual private networks basically they allow you / companies to create a secure connection an external laptop or phone into corporate systems.

    For consumers the important bit is the gateway the VPN has that connects to the rest of the internet. If the gateway is say in Paris to all intents and purposes it looks like you are surfing the internet from a Cafe in Paris rather than you bedroom in Blackpool
    Thanks. What are the downsides other than monthly subscriptions? How do I know I can trust the VPN provider who will presumably have my details? How do I choose between, say, Express, Proton, Nord (I've seen adverts for all three claiming to be the best)?

    Edit: a particular benefit is that - I think - I would be able to access betting sites and BBC iplayer and Now tv and Netflix etc while abroad).
    I finally succumbed to getting Nord, for my travels, having held out for some time. It was a cracking deal, a decent discount from Nord (which I suspect they offer routinely as a sales gambit), with a years cashback from Quidco, so that it’s essentially free for twelve months.

    Yes, you can access Betfair and BBC iPlayer as if you’re at home, if you choose to connect through the UK. You also get adverts on YouTube and the like for whichever country you choose - I quite like the Norwegian adverts as they seem fun, and always short, compared to the annoying English language ones. If you have to endure the ads it adds a little bit of interest.

    Downsides, it does slow things down a little and there are some things you can’t do without pausing the VPN, such as editing Wikipedia, or ordering Waitrose shopping (on my home PC; it seems to work on the iPad). And a few other niggles that I can’t remember.
    Tip for you...connect to Albania when you want to watch YouTube, no ads.
    Cheers, I usually am set to America or Italy.
    Why?
    I have paid for American subscriptions that only work if it thinks you are in America.

    Italy because I think that’s where I defaulted it to by accident.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,778
    NB. OG Real ones apparently use Mullvad VPN: https://mullvad.net/en

    No personal connection whatsoever m’lud.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,509
    edited July 30
    wooliedyed said:

    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
    Brown's biggest mistake was his belief that Scottish devolution would kill the independence movement.

    Oh, hold on, no, Brown's biggest mistake was PFI.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    IanB2 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    IanB2 said:

    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT on VPNs

    Would a VPN have protected against the recent Betfair privacy information hack?

    Would a VPN better protect my security credentials on bank accounts and other things?

    (Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand VPNs and people including some on here seem to think they are essential. If the answer to my questions above is 'yes' then why wouldn't I use a VPN (note I would have a paid-for VPN not a free one)?)

    VPN’s are virtual private networks basically they allow you / companies to create a secure connection an external laptop or phone into corporate systems.

    For consumers the important bit is the gateway the VPN has that connects to the rest of the internet. If the gateway is say in Paris to all intents and purposes it looks like you are surfing the internet from a Cafe in Paris rather than you bedroom in Blackpool
    Thanks. What are the downsides other than monthly subscriptions? How do I know I can trust the VPN provider who will presumably have my details? How do I choose between, say, Express, Proton, Nord (I've seen adverts for all three claiming to be the best)?

    Edit: a particular benefit is that - I think - I would be able to access betting sites and BBC iplayer and Now tv and Netflix etc while abroad).
    I finally succumbed to getting Nord, for my travels, having held out for some time. It was a cracking deal, a decent discount from Nord (which I suspect they offer routinely as a sales gambit), with a years cashback from Quidco, so that it’s essentially free for twelve months.

    Yes, you can access Betfair and BBC iPlayer as if you’re at home, if you choose to connect through the UK. You also get adverts on YouTube and the like for whichever country you choose - I quite like the Norwegian adverts as they seem fun, and always short, compared to the annoying English language ones. If you have to endure the ads it adds a little bit of interest.

    Downsides, it does slow things down a little and there are some things you can’t do without pausing the VPN, such as editing Wikipedia, or ordering Waitrose shopping (on my home PC; it seems to work on the iPad). And a few other niggles that I can’t remember.
    Tip for you...connect to Albania when you want to watch YouTube, no ads.
    Cheers, I usually am set to America or Italy.
    Why?
    I have paid for American subscriptions that only work if it thinks you are in America.

    Italy because I think that’s where I defaulted it to by accident.
    That first is an interesting point; there are many things priced quite differently depending on where you buy them, air fares and cruises being two obvious examples. I wonder whether a VPN opens up lower prices, or whether the home address would get you caught out?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,499
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    zuck is targeting mira's lab, thinking machines, with offers between $200-$500 million made to a quarter of their team — and one over $1 billion

    “not a single person has taken the offer”

    https://x.com/morqon/status/1950246497758429355

    It's a bubble.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    edited July 30
    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
    Brown's biggest mistake was his belief that Scottish devolution would kill the independence movement.

    Oh, hold on, no, Brown's biggest mistake was PFI.
    PFi was a Major initiative; Labour just saw the possibilities for spending without hitting the balance sheet and ran away with it.

    Conversely, Academy Schools was a Labour initiative that the Tories ran away with to essentially undermine and eventually abolish LEAs.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,778
    IanB2 said:

    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
    Brown's biggest mistake was his belief that Scottish devolution would kill the independence movement.

    Oh, hold on, no, Brown's biggest mistake was PFI.
    PFi was a Major initiative; Labour just saw the possibilities for spending without hitting the balance sheet and ran away with it.

    Conversely, Academy Schools was a Labour initiative that the Tories ran away with…
    There are quite a few UK policies that were introduced by one party but turbo-charged into awfulness by the other.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,247
    Andy_JS said:

    "Australia to ban YouTube accounts for under 16s in policy u-turn"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-07-30/australia-to-ban-youtube-accounts-for-under-16s

    Aside from any other issues it sort of feels like giving up on being able to deal with younger people and the internet and just going for a nuclear option.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,247
    edited July 30
    Phil said:

    IanB2 said:

    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
    Brown's biggest mistake was his belief that Scottish devolution would kill the independence movement.

    Oh, hold on, no, Brown's biggest mistake was PFI.
    PFi was a Major initiative; Labour just saw the possibilities for spending without hitting the balance sheet and ran away with it.

    Conversely, Academy Schools was a Labour initiative that the Tories ran away with…
    There are quite a few UK policies that were introduced by one party but turbo-charged into awfulness by the other.
    And, as a corrollary, also many policies which were heavily criticised by one but not reversed when they get power, even if they don't make it even worse.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,311
    Phil said:

    IanB2 said:

    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    squareroot2 said:

    Gordon Bown is the answer to all.our ills.... from the moment he removed tax relief on dividends. Ordered to two useless aircraft carriers and conned voters with a 2 p tax cut that wasn't.. all else stemmed from that. There are many other examples of his uselessness

    His idiotic removal of the 10p starter rate screwing over low earners when he thought he was being very clever was classic Brown.
    The mistake was called live during the last Brown budget and opposition response by PBers including one very handsome one
    Brown's biggest mistake was his belief that Scottish devolution would kill the independence movement.

    Oh, hold on, no, Brown's biggest mistake was PFI.
    PFi was a Major initiative; Labour just saw the possibilities for spending without hitting the balance sheet and ran away with it.

    Conversely, Academy Schools was a Labour initiative that the Tories ran away with…
    There are quite a few UK policies that were introduced by one party but turbo-charged into awfulness by the other.
    The Green Belt is another example. Introduced by Labour, turned into a shibboleth, by Conservative NIMBY's.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,311
    wooliedyed said:

    CatMan said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Its obviously the sinking of the Titanic. That's the actual moment the Empire began to die

    Nah, the Second Boer War IMHO
    The failure of 250,000 troops to defeat some farmers was a bleak moment, as was not getting all the gold
    The UK was fortunate that some other European power did not intervene on the Boers' side. But, the lessons we learned about the deadliness of defensive rifle fire served us well in WWI. Germany and France learned the wrong lessons (that if you attacked hard enough, and were willing to sustain terrible casualties, you would break the enemy).
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,509
    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    We should throw off our wheat overlords!
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,323
    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    We should throw off our wheat overlords!
    Everyone wants to be gluten free.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    bondegezou said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    We should throw off our wheat overlords!
    Low carb mega freedom
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    edited July 30
    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,478
    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Others have had similar thoughts

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unabomber/manifesto.text.htm
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,224
    Strange how Tone is the Tories great bogeyman. I say this because swathes of the British Right gave him a massive free pass at the time, up to and including the invasion of Iraq.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    I don't disagree with you. Wheat Cultivation set us on the wrong path.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,447
    edited July 30
    When did it all start to go wrong? Can I suggest the election of Margaret Thatcher.

    Taxes on income went down, indirect ones, in particular VAT, up.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    Sean_F said:

    wooliedyed said:

    CatMan said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Its obviously the sinking of the Titanic. That's the actual moment the Empire began to die

    Nah, the Second Boer War IMHO
    The failure of 250,000 troops to defeat some farmers was a bleak moment, as was not getting all the gold
    The UK was fortunate that some other European power did not intervene on the Boers' side. But, the lessons we learned about the deadliness of defensive rifle fire served us well in WWI. Germany and France learned the wrong lessons (that if you attacked hard enough, and were willing to sustain terrible casualties, you would break the enemy).
    Russia had the same opportunity from the Russo-Japanese war, but didn’t.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,447
    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    I don't disagree with you. Wheat Cultivation set us on the wrong path.
    What about rice in South and East Asia?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Starmer has had opprobrium from a freed hostage and thanks from a Hamas official
    A triumph
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    edited July 30
    OldKingCole said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    I don't disagree with you. Wheat Cultivation set us on the wrong path.
    What about rice in South and East Asia?
    Wheat wannabes?
    Its the high carb grain intensive farming that has made us dull and slow as a species
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    More fundamentally, per the Marxist analysis, it made land, and eventually the people who farmed it, into property, and hence became the foundation of feudalism and to widespread acceptance (at the top at least) of dramatic inequality of wealth and power.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,509
    If there was a write-in option, I bet 15 February 1971 would have done well among Reform UK supporters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    All air space in the UK has been shut

    I’m sitting on a plane on the runway at Gatwick
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,796
    wooliedyed said:

    Starmer has had opprobrium from a freed hostage and thanks from a Hamas official
    A triumph

    Hilarious when a comment meant ironically is actually the truth. He's wound up exactly the right people in the Israeli Government, thank God. Showing some balls at last.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,593
    OldKingCole said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    I don't disagree with you. Wheat Cultivation set us on the wrong path.
    What about rice in South and East Asia?
    Similar, except that it has to be tended all year round, whereas cereal crops have peaks of labour at sowing and harvest, but otherwise allow free time for doing other stuff - hence why Europe eventually developed further than Asia
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 209
    Don’t get me wrong I think Brexit was daft, but I tend to think of it as a symptom of our ills rather than a cause. And like many I agree that GFC is massively underplayed. I tend to think of that incident as breaking the existing consensus that ran a bit like the Mandleson line - “we don’t mind you being stinking rich, so long as you pay your taxes.”

    All of sudden there wasn’t the tax revenues from FS, and the measures introduced to prevent bigger problems (0% rates and QE) primarily benefited existing asset holders (I appreciate that the way they worked prevented bigger harms). But if you’ve worked for ten or so years with little material improvement in circumstances and little economic growth. Or just started off in a harder employment environment with an obscene amount of student debt. And you’ve seen public services salami sliced to virtually nothing. You are bound to hold someone / anyone to blame. So first it was Europe, now it seems it is all immigration’s fault.

    Of course the reality is that it wasn’t really any of those things. But absent the magic money tree mob no one is offering a better and more cohesive view of how to get us out what is a pretty rubbish scenario.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,437
    Of those, it's obviously 2008.

    But it's interesting that the left have better and more recent focal points (Brexit etc) than the Right, who have to scrabble for Tony Blair.
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 209
    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Pretty sure Rousseau agrees with you.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,183
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
    I guess also since the GFC the likes of the UK have suffered piss poor growth, wages aren't better, etc, while America has still done very well, and obviously the rise of Asia...and of course with the internet we see all of this.

    It is why Magic Grandpa's message lands.
    George Osborne's Plan A austerity. We fell behind, America roared ahead, after both suffered the GFC.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,437
    Leon said:

    All air space in the UK has been shut

    I’m sitting on a plane on the runway at Gatwick

    Only London CTA. But a disaster nonetheless.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,478
    Andrew Marr on the oddness of Starmer: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3DiY2xeQALg
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,340
    Eabhal said:

    Of those, it's obviously 2008.

    But it's interesting that the left have better and more recent focal points (Brexit etc) than the Right, who have to scrabble for Tony Blair.

    If you say that history began in 1979, the problem for a British Conservative is that our side has run the show most of the time.

    Although there have been some plucky attempts to pin it all on Starmer, Blair is the only realistic culprit available.

    (If you were 16 in 1979, you are in your sixties now, so it's not a crazy Year Dot for the public as a whole.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    All air space in the UK has been shut

    I’m sitting on a plane on the runway at Gatwick

    Only London CTA. But a disaster nonetheless.
    Do we know why?!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,183
    Sylvia Young, the founder of the London theatre school which launched countless entertainment careers, has died aged 86.

    Amy Winehouse, Rita Ora, Billie Piper, Dua Lipa and McFly's Tom Fletcher are among the stars who trained at the school early in their careers before going on to mainstream success.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyvn75r578ro


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,311
    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    What it did do was to enable a much bigger population to be sustained, and for those in charge to organise societies far more effectively for waging war. The State was largely created to facilitate war, and States could never have come into being without farming.

    Pure hunter-gatherer societies just didn't stand a chance against warlike States, although nomadic coalitions of steppe horsemen maintained military parity for a long time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    edited July 30
    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    Following a three-week trail at Liverpool Crown Court, Amaaz was convicted of assaulting PC Lydia Ward, causing actual bodily harm, and the assault of emergency worker PC Ellie Cook.

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
    I guess also since the GFC the likes of the UK have suffered piss poor growth, wages aren't better, etc, while America has still done very well, and obviously the rise of Asia...and of course with the internet we see all of this.

    It is why Magic Grandpa's message lands.
    George Osborne's Plan A austerity. We fell behind, America roared ahead, after both suffered the GFC.
    Most of Europe has been just as badly performing.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,796
    I was lurking in anarchist subreddits on Reddit and it is an article of faith amongst some of them that the biggest problem with Anarcho-Primitivism is their transophobia in that gender affirming drugs would not be produced in a primitivist world. It's an interesting insight into the way bubbles think, the tyranny of small differences. I can think of many more fundamental issues caused by the end of agriculture and complex technologies before we get to that one.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,143
    Former Tory MP Adam Holloway, no, me neither, defects to Reform

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1950573144596693269?s=61
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,311
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
    I guess also since the GFC the likes of the UK have suffered piss poor growth, wages aren't better, etc, while America has still done very well, and obviously the rise of Asia...and of course with the internet we see all of this.

    It is why Magic Grandpa's message lands.
    George Osborne's Plan A austerity. We fell behind, America roared ahead, after both suffered the GFC.
    Although in truth, the typical American has experienced austerity over that period.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Thank heavens for that. The only sane verdict

    Now he needs a really draconian sentence or the accusations of two tier justice will only grow. He could have killed one of those coppers

    He certainly needs a longer sentence than Lucy Connolly
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,143
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Bet the BBC are gutted having to report this instead of its usual stuff

    https://x.com/bbcnews/status/1950434391873704180?s=61
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,143
    DougSeal said:

    I was lurking in anarchist subreddits on Reddit and it is an article of faith amongst some of them that the biggest problem with Anarcho-Primitivism is their transophobia in that gender affirming drugs would not be produced in a primitivist world. It's an interesting insight into the way bubbles think, the tyranny of small differences. I can think of many more fundamental issues caused by the end of agriculture and complex technologies before we get to that one.

    Parklife.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,183
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    TOPPING said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    I think the GFC undermined peoples' confidence in "the system" and from that point were looking for someone to blame and to kick the dog. Hence Brexit, Reform, etc al.
    I guess also since the GFC the likes of the UK have suffered piss poor growth, wages aren't better, etc, while America has still done very well, and obviously the rise of Asia...and of course with the internet we see all of this.

    It is why Magic Grandpa's message lands.
    George Osborne's Plan A austerity. We fell behind, America roared ahead, after both suffered the GFC.
    Most of Europe has been just as badly performing.
    Europe, led by Germany, also had austerity. Ironically, Osborne's plan might have worked if not for this. Austerity at home and increased exports abroad, but you can't export if your market has also closed down.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,778
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    wooliedyed said:

    Leon said:

    Personally I think the shift to farming from hunter-gathering was the real error

    Cultivation of wheat made slaves of humanity
    It actually was a tragic mis-step in many ways. Yes we gained a much more reliable source of food - but our work rate increased five fold. We caught new zoonotic diseases from domesticated animals. We found boredom, confinement and drudgery whereas before we had freedom to wander and pluck fruit

    The Eden myth is this “fall” retold

    The evidence is in the bones. After the move to farming humans became notably shorter. A sure sign of a less healthy life and diet. It is thought that Greeks and Turks only caught up with their previous hunter-gathering average height in the early 20th century

    I believe thriller writer Tom Knox explores these themes in his famously non-violent thriller THE GENESIS SECRET
    What it did do was to enable a much bigger population to be sustained, and for those in charge to organise societies far more effectively for waging war. The State was largely created to facilitate war, and States could never have come into being without farming.

    Pure hunter-gatherer societies just didn't stand a chance against warlike States, although nomadic coalitions of steppe horsemen maintained military parity for a long time.
    “War is the State’s killer App” as someone said a few years ago. The “killer app” part probably dates it these days though.

    NB. “Seeing like a State” is good on this topic (the transition to agriculture & the formation of the early states, not war...)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Taz said:

    Former Tory MP Adam Holloway, no, me neither, defects to Reform

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1950573144596693269?s=61

    Another Yozzer Hughes 'gizza seat'
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,809
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    The 2008 crash is probably where it started. Could that have been avoided?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,067
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.

    That would explain why it took time to get the verdicts. I've not followed the details of all the charges, so don't know about whether that one was weaker than the rest.

    Lucy Powell needs to resign or be sacked from the cabinet. And Paul Waugh needs to issue an apology pronto:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234587107900060
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,796
    Taz said:

    DougSeal said:

    I was lurking in anarchist subreddits on Reddit and it is an article of faith amongst some of them that the biggest problem with Anarcho-Primitivism is their transophobia in that gender affirming drugs would not be produced in a primitivist world. It's an interesting insight into the way bubbles think, the tyranny of small differences. I can think of many more fundamental issues caused by the end of agriculture and complex technologies before we get to that one.

    Parklife.
    Literally, if we became Anarcho-Primitivists.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,809
    Lucky escape for Leon.

    "All planes grounded at London airports
    London's airports are facing widespread cancellations and delays
    All of London’s airspace has been closed because of a technical failure."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/30/london-airspace-shuts-heathrow-gatwick-failure
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    edited July 30
    tlg86 said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.

    That would explain why it took time to get the verdicts. I've not followed the details of all the charges, so don't know about whether that one was weaker than the rest.

    Lucy Powell needs to resign or be sacked from the cabinet. And Paul Waugh needs to issue an apology pronto:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234587107900060
    I believe the response to any such wrong thought will be....Do you support Jimmy Savile.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,809
    Taz said:

    Former Tory MP Adam Holloway, no, me neither, defects to Reform

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1950573144596693269?s=61

    He was the MP for Gravesham in Kent. He could probably win the seat again as a Reform candidate.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,183
    Andy_JS said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I don't think there is a single point when you can pinpoint "went wrong". I also think Brexit wasn't the start, rather a reaction to all the things that had gone wrong leading up to it, and was a tip the apple cart over reaction.

    The 2008 crash is probably where it started. Could that have been avoided?
    Perhaps if Lehman had been rescued. The Fed refused because reasons, and we refused because it is (or was) American. No lender of last resort! The crash might have been averted at a fraction of the cost that was spent soon afterwards.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    Andy_JS said:

    Lucky escape for Leon.

    "All planes grounded at London airports
    London's airports are facing widespread cancellations and delays
    All of London’s airspace has been closed because of a technical failure."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/30/london-airspace-shuts-heathrow-gatwick-failure

    I wish. I’m sitting on a plane at Gatwick, and it is not moving

    I have doubts I’ll be flying today. Feels like one of those major fuck ups
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,905
    tlg86 said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.

    That would explain why it took time to get the verdicts. I've not followed the details of all the charges, so don't know about whether that one was weaker than the rest.

    Lucy Powell needs to resign or be sacked from the cabinet. And Paul Waugh needs to issue an apology pronto:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234587107900060
    Agreed, everyone was far too keen to weigh in on the narrative that GMP were awful racists before the footage emerged of them beating a female officer.

    Paul Waugh has tried to subtly walk it back, but as a constituent who voted for him, I am unimpressed and will be writing to him to make my feelings clear.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Former Tory MP Adam Holloway, no, me neither, defects to Reform

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1950573144596693269?s=61

    He was the MP for Gravesham in Kent. He could probably win the seat again as a Reform candidate.
    Id be astonished if Reform don't win it atm
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,653
    AramintaMoonbeamQC said:

    tlg86 said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.

    That would explain why it took time to get the verdicts. I've not followed the details of all the charges, so don't know about whether that one was weaker than the rest.

    Lucy Powell needs to resign or be sacked from the cabinet. And Paul Waugh needs to issue an apology pronto:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234587107900060
    Agreed, everyone was far too keen to weigh in on the narrative that GMP were awful racists before the footage emerged of them beating a female officer.

    Paul Waugh has tried to subtly walk it back, but as a constituent who voted for him, I am unimpressed and will be writing to him to make my feelings clear.
    Chris Kaba.....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,809
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lucky escape for Leon.

    "All planes grounded at London airports
    London's airports are facing widespread cancellations and delays
    All of London’s airspace has been closed because of a technical failure."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/30/london-airspace-shuts-heathrow-gatwick-failure

    I wish. I’m sitting on a plane at Gatwick, and it is not moving

    I have doubts I’ll be flying today. Feels like one of those major fuck ups
    Sorry I thought you'd already left.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    And yet there are planes landing? I guess they have to let them land….
  • LeonLeon Posts: 63,927
    AramintaMoonbeamQC said:

    tlg86 said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mohammed Fahir Amaaz guilty of airport attack on police officers

    The jury was unable to reach verdicts on allegations that Amaaz and his brother, Muhammad Ahmed, 26, assaulted PC Zachary Marsden causing actual bodily harm.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y9y37eyddo

    Scratches head.

    That would explain why it took time to get the verdicts. I've not followed the details of all the charges, so don't know about whether that one was weaker than the rest.

    Lucy Powell needs to resign or be sacked from the cabinet. And Paul Waugh needs to issue an apology pronto:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1234587107900060
    Agreed, everyone was far too keen to weigh in on the narrative that GMP were awful racists before the footage emerged of them beating a female officer.

    Paul Waugh has tried to subtly walk it back, but as a constituent who voted for him, I am unimpressed and will be writing to him to make my feelings clear.
    Didn’t Andy Burnham make some foolish remarks as well?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    Leon said:

    And yet there are planes landing? I guess they have to let them land….

    The alternative is a bit mangly
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,562
    Whoever wrote this is about to get cancelled!

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/opinion/views/we-need-to-be-honest-about-londons-crime-wave/

    We are afraid to talk about Black violent crime in the way we do about Grooming gangs which is dominated by Muslims because race is even more sensitive a subject than religion. But needs to change.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,266
    edited July 30
    Mr Holloway, what is it about Reforms lead in the polls and 20% in Gravesham in 2024 that first attracted you to the party?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,067
    Andy_JS said:

    Lucky escape for Leon.

    "All planes grounded at London airports
    London's airports are facing widespread cancellations and delays
    All of London’s airspace has been closed because of a technical failure."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/30/london-airspace-shuts-heathrow-gatwick-failure

    Summer holidays. Again.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,562
    Andy_JS said:

    Lucky escape for Leon.

    "All planes grounded at London airports
    London's airports are facing widespread cancellations and delays
    All of London’s airspace has been closed because of a technical failure."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/30/london-airspace-shuts-heathrow-gatwick-failure

    THE NATS share that is private should be nationalised. It's one of those things you don't want to really be running on a profit.
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