John Swinney realises there is no chance of a referendum in the next 10 years at least, although he can’t admit it to his membership. He needs to continue to rebuild the SNP as a party of financial prudence after the clusterfuck of Sturgeon and Yousaf.
The Greens may not win as many seats next year if the Corbyn and Sultana party takes off, as they will be sharing the same voters.
Red, Swinney is not the answer to anything , if he cared a jot about Scotland he would have been retired by now, he is F***ing useless. SNP will not attract all the independence supporters from other parties on the off chance that clown will do anything with it.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Interestingly the anti strike sentiment creeping into nurses - much narrower support than previous times. Conservatives more agin than Reformers although Reform go for more strongly opposed hardliners.
I think Junior Doctors have disappeared up their own arseholes.
Lots of people would love their pay restored in real terms to where it would have been on a pre-2008 trajectory, but a 50%+ bump over just two years just isn't reasonable.
I don't really support the doc strike but I think the ask is for pay to be returned in real terms to 08 levels not to where it would be now on a pre-08 trajectory?
Yes, and it is worth noting that pay in other similar skilled areas is now above 2008 levels.
That said, my unions is not balloting as the indicative survey showed no enthusiasm for another Consultant strike. I don't think very many have struck this time, activity around my department is pretty much as usual.
It does look as if the Residents and Streeting were close to agreement, with major progress on non-pay issues*, but the BMA leadership insisted on a strike as the ballot was about pay.
*it's these that cause most disaffection in my straw poll of ours.
They are a buncjh of lying toerags, picked the optimal point on everything lie about the rises , ie using RPI is a joke, use the first year apprentice doctor wage as the comparison , ignore extra payments , shift money , overtime , 26% pension contribution etc. Bunch of chancers try to pretend they care for the sick , my arse , self seeking chancers.
There won't be a Pro-Indy majority, though SNP will be largest party. Therefore a referendum is completely off the table, and isn't a barrier to the two centre-left parties making a deal. Both Sarwar and Swinney want to be in Govt, and combined they should be close to a majority.
The LibDems and Greens are possible extra partners, though the Greens were burned by their experience in office and seem to be going ever more extreme, so less likely than the LibDems.
Tories/Reform will be the main opposition.
You’ve posited this a few times so I assume you’re confident. I’ll take a gentleman’s wager on there not being an SNP/SLab coalition if you like.
SNP minority with confidence and supply on budgets is the closest you'll get to a Slab/SNP coalition. There will be a trade off between Tory and Reform MSP numbers, cant see the Tories getting more than 20 seats if Reform have say 15 plus MSPs
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
And how quickly the rest of the right are to make excuses for them.
There were loads of flags of St George at Southend Airport today. I assume Nigel Farage was flying in for a constituency visit a little way up the coast.
There were loads of flags of St George at Southend Airport today. I assume Nigel Farage was flying in for a constituency visit a little way up the coast.
Does he remember what and where his constituency is?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
What a simple black and white world you must live in. Noone is claiming sainthood for Peggie. She is however unbelievably sinned against by her management at NHS Fife. They clearly decided to believe and support Upton and to persecute and punish Peggie. And it turns out he is a liar who has fabricated evidence to paint her in a bad light, a very serious offence (assuming the it professional is correct). How many on pb have made off colour jokes or laughed along? Or are we all puritans like you?
"Keir Starmer said: ‘Well, if you don’t like it, leave.’ So I did, and Jeremy and I – along with millions of others – are going to build something new and different. And they are rattled."
In her first interview since resigning from the Labour Party, @zarahsultana sets out her pitch for her and Jeremy Corbyn's new party.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
There won't be a Pro-Indy majority, though SNP will be largest party. Therefore a referendum is completely off the table, and isn't a barrier to the two centre-left parties making a deal. Both Sarwar and Swinney want to be in Govt, and combined they should be close to a majority.
The LibDems and Greens are possible extra partners, though the Greens were burned by their experience in office and seem to be going ever more extreme, so less likely than the LibDems.
Tories/Reform will be the main opposition.
You’ve posited this a few times so I assume you’re confident. I’ll take a gentleman’s wager on there not being an SNP/SLab coalition if you like.
SNP minority with confidence and supply on budgets is the closest you'll get to a Slab/SNP coalition. There will be a trade off between Tory and Reform MSP numbers, cant see the Tories getting more than 20 seats if Reform have say 15 plus MSPs
More likely I concede, though I think 20 seats is a stretch for the SCons.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
What a simple black and white world you must live in. Noone is claiming sainthood for Peggie. She is however unbelievably sinned against by her management at NHS Fife. They clearly decided to believe and support Upton and to persecute and punish Peggie. And it turns out he is a liar who has fabricated evidence to paint her in a bad light, a very serious offence (assuming the it professional is correct). How many on pb have made off colour jokes or laughed along? Or are we all puritans like you?
Man, are you triggered. St Jaykay of Rowling is the one calling her a heroine (no longer I imagine). Best stick to speculating about the genitals of trans people, that’s definitely your pay grade.
2024 General Election. Vote SNP to be FOR SCOTLAND. If you vote against us you're against Scotland 2026 Holyrood Election. Vote SNP FOR INDEPENDENCE. if you vote for another independence party you're a UNIONIST
"Keir Starmer said: ‘Well, if you don’t like it, leave.’ So I did, and Jeremy and I – along with millions of others – are going to build something new and different. And they are rattled."
In her first interview since resigning from the Labour Party, @zarahsultana sets out her pitch for her and Jeremy Corbyn's new party.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
I think Peggie is a right wing culture warrior and may well make racist "jokes", but that doesn't really matter in this case. Even the devil is entitled to his day in court. She is still deserving of respect and dignity in the workplace.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
A cynic might wonder if the Fife trans issue is about changing rooms at all or just two people who for whatever reason did not like each other.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
I think Peggie is a right wing culture warrior and may well make racist "jokes", but that doesn't really matter in this case. Even the devil is entitled to his day in court. She is still deserving of respect and dignity in the workplace.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
Thirty years of unblemished service suggests this only ‘came to a head’ because of the actions of Upton, almost certainly a fabricator of evidence against her.*
*I’m caveating this allegation because it’s only fair to do so, but the evidence is compelling that he lied.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
What a simple black and white world you must live in. Noone is claiming sainthood for Peggie. She is however unbelievably sinned against by her management at NHS Fife. They clearly decided to believe and support Upton and to persecute and punish Peggie. And it turns out he is a liar who has fabricated evidence to paint her in a bad light, a very serious offence (assuming the it professional is correct). How many on pb have made off colour jokes or laughed along? Or are we all puritans like you?
Man, are you triggered. St Jaykay of Rowling is the one calling her a heroine (no longer I imagine). Best stick to speculating about the genitals of trans people, that’s definitely your pay grade.
And you are being unnecessarily unpleasant about it. But that’s fine, you can insult all you want. That’s all NHS Fife have left, after all. The evidence of the last couple of weeks has damned them from their own emails and words. Abuse of process, conspiring, choosing sides. Exactly what you’d hope wouldn’t happen if you ever ended up being investigated by HR for andvincident.
But wait - it’s about Trans women so that trumps all other thought.
I’m really surprised to see Tampa recording its first ever temperature of over 100C today. As somewhere well south and often super hot, it’s odd that London’s all time hottest temp is 104C whereas Tampa has previously not made 100.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
A cynic might wonder if the Fife trans issue is about changing rooms at all or just two people who for whatever reason did not like each other.
My belief is Peggie has fallen into a trap set by Upton. Not set for her specifically, but for the first woman to complain. He then is alleged to have fabricated evidence and stories about patient harms that almost certainly didn’t happen and about which there is no evidence than his testimony.
I’m sure many on here would regard Peggie as a bigot for her GC views. You can see how some have kept on other testimony/smears today as ‘proof’ of her vileness.
And yet Upton reputedly has caused issues elsewhere.
I’m really surprised to see Tampa recording its first ever temperature of over 100C today. As somewhere well south and often super hot, it’s odd that London’s all time hottest temp is 104C whereas Tampa has previously not made 100.
Cooling effect of the ocean nearby vs UHI effect of London?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
A cynic might wonder if the Fife trans issue is about changing rooms at all or just two people who for whatever reason did not like each other.
That could explain why the doctor is using the nurses' changing facilities.
It heaps a vast amount of *pre-emptive* requirements on any kind of commenting platform.
Options
1) close all comments 2) allow comments to be posted only after vetting by a moderator 3) Have very, very deep pockets. And flesh eating lawyers. And time for lawsuits.
1) is easiest 2) kills most comment platforms 3) leaves the comments on the Daily Mail as the only ones in the UK. Nice
Yes, that's why the OSA is a death blow for small forums. It makes the operators liable for any breaches of the act, with significant penalties. The safest course is to stop accepting any user content at all.
One effect is yet more concentration of power in the hands of large entities that can afford ID checking systems, risk assessments and compliance audits. Reddit was basically started by a couple of guys in a bedroom. The OSA means that will never happen in the UK. No site that is based on user content will be able to get off the ground without significant funding.
The Labour Party has a deep rooted dislike of small business - but are quite friendly to big corporates.
And yet has reduced employer NI for small business whilst increasing it for big corporates, shifting the balance in talent recruitment a tad.
Only for very small businesses. Thus helping ensure that they stay as very small business. I think you lose out by the time you've ten employees, even at NMW. For us (paying decent wages) it is something like employee no six (I've currently got five and I'm looking for more).
One of the nastiest features of trying to grow a small business is that everywhere you look there are cliff edges in how you are treated and taxed. Occupy premises with a rateable value of £12k a year - zero business rates. Occupy premises with a £15k rateable value - that's £7485 in rates please (for which you get back zilch).
I'm currently trying to buy some premises which will give our business room to grow. I've found somewhere a bit too big, but which we'd grow into given time. I can mortgage the premises themselves (about a £900k purchase). I can find the £100k it will probably cost me to move / adapt /install the stuff we need. In time I can find tenants for some of the spare space.
The hardest bit to finance - £33k a year in business rates (currently I pay nil). Even if I split the premises up and let half of it out the day I buy it, the valuation office is so slow moving I'll almost certainly have to pay full wacky it for at least a year and then will get a whopping refund (I'm 4 years in from last time I was involved in splitting a premises for business rates, and that one is still not properly resolved now), which is going to be challenging at the point when my cash flow is most stretched.
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
What a simple black and white world you must live in. Noone is claiming sainthood for Peggie. She is however unbelievably sinned against by her management at NHS Fife. They clearly decided to believe and support Upton and to persecute and punish Peggie. And it turns out he is a liar who has fabricated evidence to paint her in a bad light, a very serious offence (assuming the it professional is correct). How many on pb have made off colour jokes or laughed along? Or are we all puritans like you?
Man, are you triggered. St Jaykay of Rowling is the one calling her a heroine (no longer I imagine). Best stick to speculating about the genitals of trans people, that’s definitely your pay grade.
We aren't taking sides on who the most unpleasant is here. But if we were, would it be the woman who has made a few private off colour jokes or the man who insists on getting changed in the women's changing room?
There won't be a Pro-Indy majority, though SNP will be largest party. Therefore a referendum is completely off the table, and isn't a barrier to the two centre-left parties making a deal. Both Sarwar and Swinney want to be in Govt, and combined they should be close to a majority.
The LibDems and Greens are possible extra partners, though the Greens were burned by their experience in office and seem to be going ever more extreme, so less likely than the LibDems.
Tories/Reform will be the main opposition.
You’ve posited this a few times so I assume you’re confident. I’ll take a gentleman’s wager on there not being an SNP/SLab coalition if you like.
Pretty confident, on my reading of Swinney and Sarwar and their motivations. Plus a certain political ineluctability about it, much like Plaid and Welsh Labour in the past. Not sure I'd wager tho.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
I’m really surprised to see Tampa recording its first ever temperature of over 100C today. As somewhere well south and often super hot, it’s odd that London’s all time hottest temp is 104C whereas Tampa has previously not made 100.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
This misses the point entirely. Peggie is going after NHS Fife after being cleared of all wrongdoing. No case to answer. She is going after them for wrongly suspending her. And the evidence of the bias against her has been laid out in minute detail. All the respondents have left is smearing her character, as they have tried, today. Successfully enough for some on PB to be rejoicing at her being brought down a peg(gie) or two. (Sorry, couldn’t resist).
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
I thought the "Sauternes that did heroin" was a little bit Boris Johnson. I didn't have a clue what it meant mind.
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
"Keir Starmer said: ‘Well, if you don’t like it, leave.’ So I did, and Jeremy and I – along with millions of others – are going to build something new and different. And they are rattled."
In her first interview since resigning from the Labour Party, @zarahsultana sets out her pitch for her and Jeremy Corbyn's new party.
Zarah seems to be more enthusiastic than Magic Grandpa.
Coercing old people into doing stuff they don't want to do is immoral.
I'm sure he enjoys getting to go to all the rallies he wants and talk about the issues he cares about, but he left the party only when he had no other option if he wanted to remain an MP. He'll be what, 80, by the time of the next GE? He's going for grandee territory, it's not surprising the younglings will be more into it.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
I’m really surprised to see Tampa recording its first ever temperature of over 100C today. As somewhere well south and often super hot, it’s odd that London’s all time hottest temp is 104C whereas Tampa has previously not made 100.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
Ah yes, well that's different. Bit less poncey.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
God no. I may not be fine dining like our restaurant critic, but I am not an animal you know.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
This misses the point entirely. Peggie is going after NHS Fife after being cleared of all wrongdoing. No case to answer. She is going after them for wrongly suspending her. And the evidence of the bias against her has been laid out in minute detail. All the respondents have left is smearing her character, as they have tried, today. Successfully enough for some on PB to be rejoicing at her being brought down a peg(gie) or two. (Sorry, couldn’t resist).
Actually that (the encounter) is the point. Nobody is disputing the events nor the sequence: encounter, objection, distress, suspension. On the contrary, SP's lawyer took great pains to state at length that SP was perfectly entitled to object. As I keep pointing out, this is the schwerpunkt
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
We cannot know but it's certainly not a sign that she wouldn't.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
Brave Viewcode. You will let me know when the Trans stop screaming, won't you?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
"Two killed in stabbing at business premises in London Two other men are in hospital, including one who has been detained in connection with the incident."
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
I think Peggie is a right wing culture warrior and may well make racist "jokes", but that doesn't really matter in this case. Even the devil is entitled to his day in court. She is still deserving of respect and dignity in the workplace.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
Thirty years of unblemished service suggests this only ‘came to a head’ because of the actions of Upton, almost certainly a fabricator of evidence against her.*
*I’m caveating this allegation because it’s only fair to do so, but the evidence is compelling that he lied.
If he lied in his complaint, then I don't see how that wouldn't be gross misconduct.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
We cannot know but it's certainly not a sign that she wouldn't.
Thirty years of unblemished service is rather in her favour, I think.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Are you suggesting that cookie consent banners haven't been effective in stopping.... whatever it was they were supposed to stop?
Next you'll be saying that the compulsory five minutes of (I paraphrase) 'Home taping is killing music' at the start of DVDs made people annoyed without stopping the actual issue back in those times.
Pshaw!
More process, more admin - that fixes everything. A nice dashboard and excel report showing numbers going up (or down - depending). That's what's important here. Relation to the reality of those at risk of harm is a rounding error.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
We cannot know but it's certainly not a sign that she wouldn't.
Thirty years of unblemished service is rather in her favour, I think.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Are you suggesting that cookie consent banners haven't been effective in stopping.... whatever it was they were supposed to stop?
Next you'll be saying that the compulsory five minutes of (I paraphrase) 'Home taping is killing music' at the start of DVDs made people annoyed without stopping the actual issue back in those times.
Pshaw!
More process, more admin - that fixes everything. A nice dashboard and excel report showing numbers going up (or down - depending). That's what's important here. Relation to the reality of those at risk of harm is a rounding error.
What about people recording the Radio One Top 40 onto cassette tapes in the 70s and 80s?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
This misses the point entirely. Peggie is going after NHS Fife after being cleared of all wrongdoing. No case to answer. She is going after them for wrongly suspending her. And the evidence of the bias against her has been laid out in minute detail. All the respondents have left is smearing her character, as they have tried, today. Successfully enough for some on PB to be rejoicing at her being brought down a peg(gie) or two. (Sorry, couldn’t resist).
Actually that (the encounter) is the point. Nobody is disputing the events nor the sequence: encounter, objection, distress, suspension. On the contrary, SP's lawyer took great pains to state at length that SP was perfectly entitled to object. As I keep pointing out, this is the schwerpunkt
You are wrong. The tribunal is about her being wrongly suspended. And a lot of that is down to how NHS Fife behaved. Believing Upton, not believing Peggie. As you say the is little debate about the Xmas eve encounter. And as GC is a protected characteristic she is allowed to hold that belief. NHS Fife say she should have found another way to complain. We’ll see how they have behaved after this and you can 8magine why she didn’t. And no one else objecting might be because (a) Everyone else was happy or (b) everyone else was too scared to complain. My money is on (b).
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
Ah yes, well that's different. Bit less poncey.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
Also, my bedroom now looks like THIS
That’s an olive wood and mahogany late 18th century Italian cabinet. Next to an IKEA mirror. Above it is a photo I took of the cantering windhorses of the stupa of Balagezong, a tiny mountaintop village in Yunnanese Tibet. I was possibly the first western visitor ever to Balagezong, because when I got there the Chinese told me they’d just finished the road 2 days earlier and before they built the road it took eight days walking to reach Balagezong
It was so beautiful up there - snowy peaks up high, jungle valleys below - I burst into tears. My guide thought I was either sick or mad. I had to tell him “no it’s just so beautiful”
But you know what makes this? It’s not the antique furniture or the photo of Balagezong, it’s that painted stone on the cabinet, painted by an Australian Aboriginal artist, part of a famous collective in n northern Arnhemland (Gang Gunak Barlu, to be precise) - one of the most remote places on earth
That stone is highly representative of an artistic tradition, in Arnhemland, which stretches back 50,000 years which only recently ended and is thus beyond price. Tho it cost me £20 to buy it from the artist himself under a ghost gum tree
That, my friend, is living. That is how to have a life
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
I think Peggie is a right wing culture warrior and may well make racist "jokes", but that doesn't really matter in this case. Even the devil is entitled to his day in court. She is still deserving of respect and dignity in the workplace.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
Thirty years of unblemished service suggests this only ‘came to a head’ because of the actions of Upton, almost certainly a fabricator of evidence against her.*
*I’m caveating this allegation because it’s only fair to do so, but the evidence is compelling that he lied.
If he lied in his complaint, then I don't see how that wouldn't be gross misconduct.
Time will tell. The judge may choose to believe the respondents. But if it goes the other way then Upton could be in rather hot water. Hence, I think, the smears of today.
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
Ah yes, well that's different. Bit less poncey.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
God no. I may not be fine dining like our restaurant critic, but I am not an animal you know.
Well that was my 'tea' for years as a kid. My mum wasn't big on cooking.
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
Ah yes, well that's different. Bit less poncey.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
Also, my bedroom now looks like THIS
That’s an olive wood and mahogany late 18th century Italian cabinet. Next to an IKEA mirror. Above it is a photo I took of the cantering windhorses of the stupa of Balagezong, a tiny mountaintop village in Yunnanese Tibet. I was possibly the first western visitor ever to Balagezong, because when I got there the Chinese told me they’d just finished the road 2 days earlier and before they built the road it took eight days walking to reach Balagezong
It was so beautiful up there - snowy peaks up high, jungle valleys below - I burst into tears. My guide thought I was either sick or mad. I had to tell him “no it’s just so beautiful”
But you know what makes this? It’s not the antique furniture or the photo of Balagezong, it’s that painted stone on the cabinet, painted by an Australian Aboriginal artist, part of a famous collective in n northern Arnhemland (Gang Gunak Barlu, to be precise) - one of the most remote places on earth
That stone is highly representative of an artistic tradition, in Arnhemland, which stretches back 50,000 years which only recently ended and is thus beyond price. Tho it cost me £20 to buy it from the artist himself under a ghost gum tree
That, my friend, is living. That is how to have a life
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
I think Peggie is a right wing culture warrior and may well make racist "jokes", but that doesn't really matter in this case. Even the devil is entitled to his day in court. She is still deserving of respect and dignity in the workplace.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
Thirty years of unblemished service suggests this only ‘came to a head’ because of the actions of Upton, almost certainly a fabricator of evidence against her.*
*I’m caveating this allegation because it’s only fair to do so, but the evidence is compelling that he lied.
If he lied in his complaint, then I don't see how that wouldn't be gross misconduct.
(narrator: the email chain contained emails with creation dates after the update date. The IT guy did not state malfeasance but implied it, but did not sustain it on cross-examination. Otherexplanations are available.)
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
Yawn.
So you don't want to know what I had for my tea either then?
Ah yes, well that's different. Bit less poncey.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
Also, my bedroom now looks like THIS
That’s an olive wood and mahogany late 18th century Italian cabinet. Next to an IKEA mirror. Above it is a photo I took of the cantering windhorses of the stupa of Balagezong, a tiny mountaintop village in Yunnanese Tibet. I was possibly the first western visitor ever to Balagezong, because when I got there the Chinese told me they’d just finished the road 2 days earlier and before they built the road it took eight days walking to reach Balagezong
It was so beautiful up there - snowy peaks up high, jungle valleys below - I burst into tears. My guide thought I was either sick or mad. I had to tell him “no it’s just so beautiful”
But you know what makes this? It’s not the antique furniture or the photo of Balagezong, it’s that painted stone on the cabinet, painted by an Australian Aboriginal artist, part of a famous collective in n northern Arnhemland (Gang Gunak Barlu, to be precise) - one of the most remote places on earth
That stone is highly representative of an artistic tradition, in Arnhemland, which stretches back 50,000 years which only recently ended and is thus beyond price. Tho it cost me £20 to buy it from the artist himself under a ghost gum tree
That, my friend, is living. That is how to have a life
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Masterchef. One presenter ditched for off-colour jokes; the other for use of a racist slur. If that is the standard...
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
The cynic within me wonders if the plan is actually to ban VPNs (governments never like the population using strong encryption very much) and the whole point of the OSA is to provide a justification for banning VPNs - "won't somebody think of the children".
The only flaw in this argument is that it ascribes a level of devious cunning to Tory ministers usually considered unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag unaided. But possibly their civil service mandarins were the ones playing the long(er) game.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
This misses the point entirely. Peggie is going after NHS Fife after being cleared of all wrongdoing. No case to answer. She is going after them for wrongly suspending her. And the evidence of the bias against her has been laid out in minute detail. All the respondents have left is smearing her character, as they have tried, today. Successfully enough for some on PB to be rejoicing at her being brought down a peg(gie) or two. (Sorry, couldn’t resist).
So what you're saying is that it's HR's incompetent handling of a disciplinary, followed by HR dragging up the original dispute and the HR trying to smear her? I think that's an issue on which PB can find unity.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Masterchef. One presenter ditched for off-colour jokes; the other for use of a racist slur. If that is the standard...
Well Torode seems to have had a bit of a poor crack of the old slips cordon there. I think they wanted to get him gone too to go for a complete refresh, so they have got him out on the flimsiest of pretexts.
Wallace sounds like a massive arse, but he’s been doing it for years. Some is culpable for him getting away with it so long. Perhaps someone who shares Roger’s views on what the Talent can be allowed to get up to…
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Are you suggesting that cookie consent banners haven't been effective in stopping.... whatever it was they were supposed to stop?
Next you'll be saying that the compulsory five minutes of (I paraphrase) 'Home taping is killing music' at the start of DVDs made people annoyed without stopping the actual issue back in those times.
Pshaw!
More process, more admin - that fixes everything. A nice dashboard and excel report showing numbers going up (or down - depending). That's what's important here. Relation to the reality of those at risk of harm is a rounding error.
What about people recording the Radio One Top 40 onto cassette tapes in the 70s and 80s?
Somewhat related - there used to be a torrent site which just listed home-made cassette recordings of old UK radio shows which were now long gone. Local radio stations, old BBC programmes they insisted were 'lost'.
Then some (as I remember) BBC lawyers set on the owner and he shut the site down. 1000s, probably 10s of 1000s of old radio recordings - gone in a flash.
Slow handclaps all round...
I remember an especially infuriating response from them around the time saying they did have some of the recordings, but that they weren't "broadcast quality" - so wouldn't make them available in any form.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
The cynic within me wonders if the plan is actually to ban VPNs (governments never like the population using strong encryption very much) and the whole point of the OSA is to provide a justification for banning VPNs - "won't somebody think of the children".
The only flaw in this argument is that it ascribes a level of devious cunning to Tory ministers usually considered unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag unaided. But possibly their civil service mandarins were the ones playing the long(er) game.
Except the civil servants still think you can print out the Internet. The constant lack of security and failures to understand the various access issues are glaring.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Exactly.
It's creating new regulatory burden on websites that has no end impact on end users other than requiring them to click a couple of extra buttons before accessing porn, or whatever else.
Ironically, teenagers and others this is aiming to protect are the least likely to be put off by VPNs to see what they want. They are the most resourceful.
Essentially the legislation's main impact on porn usage will be to reduce the number of 70+ year olds who access porn because they don't want to enter their credit card details.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Masterchef. One presenter ditched for off-colour jokes; the other for use of a racist slur. If that is the standard...
At least Gregg wasn’t pretending to be a lady when he got his old chap out.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
This misses the point entirely. Peggie is going after NHS Fife after being cleared of all wrongdoing. No case to answer. She is going after them for wrongly suspending her. And the evidence of the bias against her has been laid out in minute detail. All the respondents have left is smearing her character, as they have tried, today. Successfully enough for some on PB to be rejoicing at her being brought down a peg(gie) or two. (Sorry, couldn’t resist).
So what you're saying is that it's HR's incompetent handling of a disciplinary, followed by HR dragging up the original dispute and the HR trying to smear her? I think that's an issue on which PB can find unity.
Pretty much. The investigation was tainted by witnesses being involved in the process, discussing in emails the events and any number of other procedural no nos. They seem to have taken Uptons word at face value and leapt to,conclude that Peggie was in the wrong. And then she was cleared anyway. You have also seen the lunacy of consultants not knowing what sex they are, of highly paid EDI officers not actually having written any policies on trans and thus just googling what other people do. And then people wonder why Reform believe we should just sack all EDI/DEI officers.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Why don't you believe for a minute that parents is the answer? It seems completely like the answer to me. Parents prevent their children being to access unsuitable material.
Annoyingly underwhelming. Really wanted to enjoy it.
I refer m'lud to every Dr Who episode Mark Gatiss ever wrote, of which "Annoyingly underwhelming. Really wanted to enjoy it" is an accurate precis.
I quite like Cold War - returning Ice warriors to what they always were - an ambiguous villain.
Yes, but he's...dull. Nothing wrong, all the buttons get ticked (he bought back Ysanne Churchmann!), he has deep knowledge of the lore, but the output is...dull.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Masterchef. One presenter ditched for off-colour jokes; the other for use of a racist slur. If that is the standard...
At least Gregg wasn’t pretending to be a lady when he got his old chap out.
The complaint was not that Gregg's old chap was out but it was the only part that was in. That said, I vaguely recall a naked football match for Comic Relief or one of the other telethons back in the day so standards do change. (Are they still called telethons?)
I’m really surprised to see Tampa recording its first ever temperature of over 100C today. As somewhere well south and often super hot, it’s odd that London’s all time hottest temp is 104C whereas Tampa has previously not made 100.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
We cannot know but it's certainly not a sign that she wouldn't.
If Ms Peggie defines patients as ‘Pakistani’ and ‘Scottish’ I might have a few doubts.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
The cynic within me wonders if the plan is actually to ban VPNs (governments never like the population using strong encryption very much) and the whole point of the OSA is to provide a justification for banning VPNs - "won't somebody think of the children".
The only flaw in this argument is that it ascribes a level of devious cunning to Tory ministers usually considered unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag unaided. But possibly their civil service mandarins were the ones playing the long(er) game.
Except the civil servants still think you can print out the Internet. The constant lack of security and failures to understand the various access issues are glaring.
And they do not realise that remote access to any computer for work purposes is best done by VPN.
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
The cynic within me wonders if the plan is actually to ban VPNs (governments never like the population using strong encryption very much) and the whole point of the OSA is to provide a justification for banning VPNs - "won't somebody think of the children".
The only flaw in this argument is that it ascribes a level of devious cunning to Tory ministers usually considered unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag unaided. But possibly their civil service mandarins were the ones playing the long(er) game.
And banning VPNs would go a long way to end working from home
I note the virtually unanimous condemnation of the OSA on here, and indeed have many reservations myself. However, in all the commentary I've yet to read of any practical solutions to the problem of online harm - unless, of course, one thinks there isn't a problem.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer. It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Yes; but does it achieve its goal?
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Are you suggesting that cookie consent banners haven't been effective in stopping.... whatever it was they were supposed to stop?
Next you'll be saying that the compulsory five minutes of (I paraphrase) 'Home taping is killing music' at the start of DVDs made people annoyed without stopping the actual issue back in those times.
Pshaw!
More process, more admin - that fixes everything. A nice dashboard and excel report showing numbers going up (or down - depending). That's what's important here. Relation to the reality of those at risk of harm is a rounding error.
What about people recording the Radio One Top 40 onto cassette tapes in the 70s and 80s?
Somewhat related - there used to be a torrent site which just listed home-made cassette recordings of old UK radio shows which were now long gone. Local radio stations, old BBC programmes they insisted were 'lost'.
Then some (as I remember) BBC lawyers set on the owner and he shut the site down. 1000s, probably 10s of 1000s of old radio recordings - gone in a flash.
Slow handclaps all round...
I remember an especially infuriating response from them around the time saying they did have some of the recordings, but that they weren't "broadcast quality" - so wouldn't make them available in any form.
Wasn't there something similar when Bob Monkhouse was found in possession of illicit copies of films, some of which were presumed lost?
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
A few off colour(sic) jokes? At least I now know what your benchmark is.
The folk saying she's a heroine and an inspiration with grace, class and a strong moral backbone must feel a bit dumb.
How clean is your WhatsApp?
Don't think I've 'hilariously' suggested that I'd put bacon through the letterbox of a newly built mosque, but my memory isn't what it used to be.
It is striking how often right wing culture warriors turn out to be scumbags on a personal level.
You believe Peggie is a right wing culture warrior? Wow. And scimbag for not wanting to get undressed with a six foot man in the changing room? A man with a penis and testicles? Unbelievable
Why would you give somebody a free pass on racist rhetoric just because you agree with their stance on something else?
Because the real world is complex. People say stuff. People believe stuff. You may not realise how many people in the U.K. think fully veiled women are a bad thing. And wonder if they are forced to show their faces at passport control. And people make bad taste jokes on WhatsApp all the time. As soon as their is a disaster, someone will be making a joke.
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Masterchef. One presenter ditched for off-colour jokes; the other for use of a racist slur. If that is the standard...
At least Gregg wasn’t pretending to be a lady when he got his old chap out.
The complaint was not that Gregg's old chap was out but it was the only part that was in. That said, I vaguely recall a naked football match for Comic Relief or one of the other telethons back in the day so standards do change. (Are they still called telethons?)
I’ve not been totally on top of this but I did hear talk of elephant impersonations involving trouser pockets pulled out to represent the ears.
The case isn’t about whether Peggie made a few off colour jokes on a WhatsApp group. It’s about single sex spaces and men going into them. It’s about NHS fife conspiring against Peggie because she is gender critical. It’s about Upton falsifying electronic notes after the alleged incident to make Peggie look bad (the interpretation of the computer expert). That Peggie might find Upton ‘weird’ is irrelevant.
It's not about that either (and there are otherexplanations for email asynchrony) .
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below. i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room? ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
I haven't been following this especially closely, but testimony has been heard that Peggie did not restrict her Islamophobic and other views to social media:
While Upton should not have been in that changing room, that does not give Peggie carte blanche to use abusive language of a discriminatory nature in that changing room confrontation.
There were no witnesses, so the credibility and past behaviour of the protagonists is a key issue to investigate.
Comments
Mid terms can't come soon enough.
It was a battered sausage.
To give just one example. It's very easy for kids to access really hard-core pornography online (it's not about 'naked ladies and boobies', as some have fatuously claimed). And if you think, as I do, that such material can damage some kids' perception of women and sex, and also contributes to an incel culture that demeans women and is a potential danger to them, it might be a good idea to make such access harder. But how? I don't believe for a minute that 'parents' is the answer.
It's also worth remembering that some of the impetus for the OSA came from the Molly Russell case. Are we okay with kids like her being able to access so much stuff about suicide so easily?
Bunch of chancers try to pretend they care for the sick , my arse , self seeking chancers.
Been Gees prompt for some reason there in my mind
Yes 45%
How many on pb have made off colour jokes or laughed along? Or are we all puritans like you?
"We are the Left"
Novara Media
@novaramedia
"Keir Starmer said: ‘Well, if you don’t like it, leave.’ So I did, and Jeremy and I – along with millions of others – are going to build something new and different. And they are rattled."
In her first interview since resigning from the Labour Party, @zarahsultana sets out her pitch for her and Jeremy Corbyn's new party.
https://x.com/novaramedia/status/1949892678239367583
St Jaykay of Rowling is the one calling her a heroine (no longer I imagine). Best stick to speculating about the genitals of trans people, that’s definitely your pay grade.
2024 General Election. Vote SNP to be FOR SCOTLAND. If you vote against us you're against Scotland
2026 Holyrood Election. Vote SNP FOR INDEPENDENCE. if you vote for another independence party you're a UNIONIST
What a stupid [banhammer]
Coercing old people into doing stuff they don't want to do is immoral.
It may explain some of why management were less than sympathetic to her. My experience of similar disciplinary cases is that there is often a growing conflict which no one has addressed until some flashpoint is reached.
As they say, "when seeking revenge, first dig two graves."
*I’m caveating this allegation because it’s only fair to do so, but the evidence is compelling that he lied.
But wait - it’s about Trans women so that trumps all other thought.
I’m sure many on here would regard Peggie as a bigot for her GC views. You can see how some have kept on other testimony/smears today as ‘proof’ of her vileness.
And yet Upton reputedly has caused issues elsewhere.
Jack Davenport is the best thing in it.
Silly, and a ludicrous body count, but fun.
One of the nastiest features of trying to grow a small business is that everywhere you look there are cliff edges in how you are treated and taxed. Occupy premises with a rateable value of £12k a year - zero business rates. Occupy premises with a £15k rateable value - that's £7485 in rates please (for which you get back zilch).
I'm currently trying to buy some premises which will give our business room to grow. I've found somewhere a bit too big, but which we'd grow into given time. I can mortgage the premises themselves (about a £900k purchase). I can find the £100k it will probably cost me to move / adapt /install the stuff we need. In time I can find tenants for some of the spare space.
The hardest bit to finance - £33k a year in business rates (currently I pay nil). Even if I split the premises up and let half of it out the day I buy it, the valuation office is so slow moving I'll almost certainly have to pay full wacky it for at least a year and then will get a whopping refund (I'm 4 years in from last time I was involved in splitting a premises for business rates, and that one is still not properly resolved now), which is going to be challenging at the point when my cash flow is most stretched.
Oh I'm just eating the world's best salad nicoise (Ortiz jarred tuna!) off a 19th century Japanese imari plate while drinking an OBSCENELY overaged white Burgundy: Saint Aubin, Domaine du Primont, Premier Cru, 2012, which is now so old it tastes like a vintage Sauternes that did heroin and somehow survived to live in Hyeres in a small chalet decorated with Django Reinhardt vinyl album covers
It does not matter if Nurse Peggie is a staggering racist or not: if she is she has kept it to social media and does not appear to have reflected that in IRL, so it's not a problem and nobody's perfect. It does not matter if the procedures followed by NHS Fife were imperfect: no process can withstand the scrutiny it's being subjected to. What does matter is the facts of the encounter and I remind you of my post , which I paraphrase below:
"...That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points, which are below.
i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room?
ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
[This is] the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance..."
Oddly the defence, prosecution, BU, SP and the witnesses all agree that there was an encounter in the nurse's changing room, that SP objected to BU's presence, that BU was upset by it, and that NHS Fife suspended her for it. Minutae and the personal qualities of BU and SP are not relevant.
Westminster will say “it’s not a mandate l, the Supreme Court has ruled as such”
There’s no negotiation possible. Scotland needs to persuade and influence not negotiate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookish_(TV_series)
I thought the "Sauternes that did heroin" was a little bit Boris Johnson. I didn't have a clue what it meant mind.
Crispy pancakes and chips?
Do you believe that Peggie would treat Pakistani patient differently to a Scottish one because she made some racist jokes?
Now you're saying this. That negotiaton is too uppity.
You're a joke on this topic.
Fair play for dispensing with the union of consent bullshit.
And unless you think the goal is to enrich the owners of VPN services, then I suspect it doesn't
Those people who wish to see porn (of any kind) or to find information about suicide, will simply avoid the issue by using VPNs, or will use sites that are criminal and which don't care about UK regulation.
What exactly has been gained by the regulation other than adding a whole bunch of hoops, that otherwise law-abiding people have to jump through?
Two other men are in hospital, including one who has been detained in connection with the incident."
https://news.sky.com/story/two-killed-in-stabbing-at-business-premises-in-london-13403183
Next you'll be saying that the compulsory five minutes of (I paraphrase) 'Home taping is killing music' at the start of DVDs made people annoyed without stopping the actual issue back in those times.
Pshaw!
More process, more admin - that fixes everything. A nice dashboard and excel report showing numbers going up (or down - depending). That's what's important here. Relation to the reality of those at risk of harm is a rounding error.
ie
https://www.mixcloud.com/1869300/uk-top-40-radio-1-tony-blackburn-21-10-1979
That’s an olive wood and mahogany late 18th century Italian cabinet. Next to an IKEA mirror. Above it is a photo I took of the cantering windhorses of the stupa of Balagezong, a tiny mountaintop village in Yunnanese Tibet. I was possibly the first western visitor ever to Balagezong, because when I got there the Chinese told me they’d just finished the road 2 days earlier and before they built the road it took eight days walking to reach Balagezong
It was so beautiful up there - snowy peaks up high, jungle valleys below - I burst into tears. My guide thought I was either sick or mad. I had to tell him “no it’s just so beautiful”
But you know what makes this? It’s not the antique furniture or the photo of Balagezong, it’s that painted stone on the cabinet, painted by an Australian Aboriginal artist, part of a famous collective in n northern Arnhemland (Gang Gunak Barlu, to be precise) - one of the most remote places on earth
That stone is highly representative of an artistic tradition, in Arnhemland, which stretches back 50,000 years which only recently ended and is thus beyond price. Tho it cost me £20 to buy it from the artist himself under a ghost gum tree
That, my friend, is living. That is how to have a life
(narrator: the email chain contained emails with creation dates after the update date. The IT guy did not state malfeasance but implied it, but did not sustain it on cross-examination. Other explanations are available.)
The only flaw in this argument is that it ascribes a level of devious cunning to Tory ministers usually considered unable to find their way out of a wet paper bag unaided. But possibly their civil service mandarins were the ones playing the long(er) game.
I think that's an issue on which PB can find unity.
Wallace sounds like a massive arse, but he’s been doing it for years. Some is culpable for him getting away with it so long. Perhaps someone who shares Roger’s views on what the Talent can be allowed to get up to…
Somewhat related - there used to be a torrent site which just listed home-made cassette recordings of old UK radio shows which were now long gone. Local radio stations, old BBC programmes they insisted were 'lost'.
Then some (as I remember) BBC lawyers set on the owner and he shut the site down. 1000s, probably 10s of 1000s of old radio recordings - gone in a flash.
Slow handclaps all round...
I remember an especially infuriating response from them around the time saying they did have some of the recordings, but that they weren't "broadcast quality" - so wouldn't make them available in any form.
It's creating new regulatory burden on websites that has no end impact on end users other than requiring them to click a couple of extra buttons before accessing porn, or whatever else.
Ironically, teenagers and others this is aiming to protect are the least likely to be put off by VPNs to see what they want. They are the most resourceful.
Essentially the legislation's main impact on porn usage will be to reduce the number of 70+ year olds who access porn because they don't want to enter their credit card details.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhvVzCaCjks
Tbh I've no idea myself.
https://bsky.app/profile/davidbol.bsky.social/post/3lv23wbt72c2u
While Upton should not have been in that changing room, that does not give Peggie carte blanche to use abusive language of a discriminatory nature in that changing room confrontation.
There were no witnesses, so the credibility and past behaviour of the protagonists is a key issue to investigate.