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An apology to Doctor David Bull, Reform’s new chairman – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,520
edited June 14 in General
An apology to Doctor David Bull, Reform’s new chairman – politicalbetting.com

? Good news for Reform's new chairman Dr David Bull and former presenter of 'Most Haunted': our new polling finds that he's in tune with a good chunk of his party with Reform UK supporters more likely to believe in ghosts than the public as a whole

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,702
    First.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    I had my first demo ride in a @wayve_ai car at #CVPR2025 in Nashville. It was completely "unremarkable", which is exactly what you want. Using only RGB cameras and end-to-end training, the software drives like a human. It was smoother and less aggressive than Waymo rides and it felt more natural to me. It was a rainy day and there was a safety driver just in case, but the software had no trouble with the conditions. This is all done without ever training on Nashville -- it drives in a new city like a human would.

    https://x.com/Michael_J_Black/status/1933880755752480915

    Wayve AI headquartered in the UK.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    Shifty review – Adam Curtis’s new show is an utter rarity: stylish, intelligent TV with something to say

    The celebrated documentarian’s five-part series charts the decline of Britain’s democracy with a witty, kaleidoscopic selection of archive footage. It begins, of course, with Margaret Thatcher

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/jun/14/shifty-review-adam-curtis-new-show-bbc-iplayer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244
    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376
    Dr David Bull for Reform because he's a TV presenter, and it's all a crappy show.
    Im surprised they didn't go for Widders for the lolz
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157

    Shifty review – Adam Curtis’s new show is an utter rarity: stylish, intelligent TV with something to say

    The celebrated documentarian’s five-part series charts the decline of Britain’s democracy with a witty, kaleidoscopic selection of archive footage. It begins, of course, with Margaret Thatcher

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/jun/14/shifty-review-adam-curtis-new-show-bbc-iplayer

    Saw that yesterday. Looks interesting. Makes me almost wish I watched TV.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157
    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    WFH on Zoom has its security advantages too.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157

    Dr David Bull for Reform because he's a TV presenter, and it's all a crappy show.
    Im surprised they didn't go for Widders for the lolz

    The ghost of Margaret Thatcher and the myth of her appeal is what they are channeling.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,425
    Think of the possibilities. Reform UK Live! broadcast on Farage's UTuub channel.

    DAVID: Now we're crossing live to Maidstone where Zia has found something spooky
    ZIA: Thanks David, our investigation team has found some spectral goings on in the accounts

    etc
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,057
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    WFH on Zoom has its security advantages too.
    Then they know where you are, all day, Monday-Friday
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244

    Think of the possibilities. Reform UK Live! broadcast on Farage's UTuub channel.

    DAVID: Now we're crossing live to Maidstone where Zia has found something spooky
    ZIA: Thanks David, our investigation team has found some spectral goings on in the accounts

    etc

    "We've just been endorsed by the vengeful ghost of Margaret Thatcher."
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376

    Think of the possibilities. Reform UK Live! broadcast on Farage's UTuub channel.

    DAVID: Now we're crossing live to Maidstone where Zia has found something spooky
    ZIA: Thanks David, our investigation team has found some spectral goings on in the accounts

    etc

    Zia - we are finding some real spooky shit. We need to raise council tax 5% so we can afford to really dig into this ghoulish behaviour.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,523

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    WFH on Zoom has its security advantages too.
    Then they know where you are, all day, Monday-Friday
    And can probably monitor everything you are saying, too.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,738
    It's like the old joke..........

    What's the difference between a church and a lunatic asylum?

    A church is where you go to talk to God

    A lunatic asylum is where you go if he replies
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    WFH on Zoom has its security advantages too.
    Then they know where you are, all day, Monday-Friday
    If the regime survives, I expect it increasingly to embrace China.

    Better tech, less susceptible to western hacking, and far better military kit.

    Also their largest oil customer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,910
    So Faragists are more likely to believe in scary things that probably don't really exist?

    I suppose it could be coincidence, but if coincidences are just coincidences, why do they feel so contrived?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,550

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376
    Of course if you see a field full of sheep how do you know half of them aren't ghost sheep?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376
    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Careful, you may be mocked!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,205
    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Indeed. We're at the early phases of understanding.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,702
    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Hopefully, that while not everything currently assumed to be true is necessarily so, that most things random internet nutters suggest might be true is most probably not.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,738
    edited June 14
    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244
    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    edited June 14
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    Israel's actions are not out of the blue.

    You'll never accept Israel's right to self-defence will you?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    edited June 14
    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,842
    Could be a very ugly day in America

    @atrupar.com‬

    Brevard County Sheriff Sheriff Wayne Ivey: "If you throw a brick, a firebomb, or point a gun at one of our deputies, we will be notifying your family where to collect your remains at, because we will kill you graveyard dead."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl63culzt2a
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,270
    Aaron Rupar‬
    @atrupar.com‬
    · 3m
    Brevard County Sheriff Sheriff Wayne Ivey: "If you throw a brick, a firebomb, or point a gun at one of our deputies, we will be notifying your family where to collect your remains at, because we will kill you graveyard dead."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl63culzt2a
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    edited June 14
    Technical terms in rugby caught on the refs mic....you absolutely twatted him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,550
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,684
    https://x.com/saeedazimi1772/status/1933853950337552845

    Farda Motors production site at Borujerd, a company that imported and assembled Chinese cars was hit by Israel. A number of engineers have died, number of casualties unknown.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244
    edited June 14
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,523

    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.

    It's still just incredible that Mauritius are getting money for the privilege of being gifted territory. What on earth is the rationale behind that?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    Quite right. I find rationalists both tragic and hilarious so I dont bother engaging with them on important matters metaphysical
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,629
    edited June 14
    RobD said:

    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.

    It's still just incredible that Mauritius are getting money for the privilege of being gifted territory. What on earth is the rationale behind that?
    Like an allegedly pro-growth government that repeatedly shafts the private sector.

    Or a government that is going to stop small boats but somehow presides over record daily numbers of arrivals.

    Or a government that wants to improve education and opportunity but is rolling back reforms requiring teachers to teach literacy and numeracy while taxing into oblivion the best schools in the country.

    Or a government that is worried about the public finances but dished out tens of billions in climate aid and unconditional pay rises to public sector workers.

    (And yes the last lot weren't greatly better in many ways, but this lot are beyond belief).

    If there is a bad decision, they will make it. And then gaslight about how everything is getting better and it was all the last government's fault anyway.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    edited June 14
    RobD said:

    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.

    It's still just incredible that Mauritius are getting money for the privilege of being gifted territory. What on earth is the rationale behind that?
    Starmer is so good at negotiating, he would go to buy a second hand car and end up coming away empty handed but having agreed to pay for the salesman's lease on a new Ferrari.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,842
    @atrupar.com‬

    Walz announces that Rep. Melissa Hortman is dead as a result of a "politically motivated assassination"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl74nrzwh2u
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244
    Two Minnesota lawmakers and their spouses were shot by someone impersonating a police officer, sources confirmed to FOX 9.

    Sen. John Hoffman and Rep. Melissa Hortman, as well as their spouses, were shot in the overnight shootings in Champlin and Brooklyn Park, sources told FOX 9's Karen Scullin.
    Their conditions are not known as of this writing.

    Hortman, a Democrat from Brooklyn Park, represents District 34B. Hoffman, a Democrat from Champlin, represents Senate District 34.

    The shelter-in-place alert sent at 5:30 a.m. by Brooklyn Park Police Department is for the 3-mile radius around the Edinburgh Golf Course.

    Police say they are looking for a suspect in multiple targeted shootings. The suspect is armed and dangerous. The suspect is a white man with brown hair wearing black body armor over a blue shirt and blue pants, and he may be impersonating law enforcement.

    https://x.com/dotconnectinga/status/1933880814623654378
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Walz announces that Rep. Melissa Hortman is dead as a result of a "politically motivated assassination"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl74nrzwh2u

    Did she not worship at the feet of trump enough and was expendable?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,205
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Walz announces that Rep. Melissa Hortman is dead as a result of a "politically motivated assassination"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl74nrzwh2u

    That's terrible.

    Shocking.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    Its entirely reasonable not to be confident about what we know.

    Its equally reasonable to mock the way some people take their own beliefs seriously, while mocking those of others.

    It is always reasonable to mock hypocrisy.

    If its OK to mock believers in ghosts, its OK to mock believers in prophets or anything else. There's no difference between the two that elevates one above the other.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,085
    RobD said:

    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.

    It's still just incredible that Mauritius are getting money for the privilege of being gifted territory. What on earth is the rationale behind that?
    The Chagossians are Mauritius' problem now, not ours.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Walz announces that Rep. Melissa Hortman is dead as a result of a "politically motivated assassination"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl74nrzwh2u

    Did she not worship at the feet of trump enough and was expendable?
    Ah my mistake I saw rep. Melissa hortman and assumed it meant republican
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    RobD said:

    However that figure has been widely disputed, with critics saying the true tally once inflation and other payments are taken into account will top £30 billion.

    Those calculations were based on inflation averaging out at the Bank of England’s target rate of 2 per cent across the entire century of payments.

    But this week Darren Jones, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said that for most of the period the Treasury is assuming inflation will run at 2.3 per cent.

    That would add £4.8 billion more than expected, according to Tory calculations, taking the final bill to the taxpayer up to just over £35 billion.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/14/starmers-chagos-surrender-will-cost-5bn-more-than-feared/

    I rememeber when the government were claiming this renegotiation wasn't going to cost anywhere near the leaked figures of £16bn. Started at £10bn, ended up paying £35bn. Even Delboy or Arthur Daley never got stitched up this badly.

    It's still just incredible that Mauritius are getting money for the privilege of being gifted territory. What on earth is the rationale behind that?
    The Chagossians are Mauritius' problem now, not ours.
    Erm well they are our problem for the next 99 years as thats the deal starmer signed us up to
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Walz announces that Rep. Melissa Hortman is dead as a result of a "politically motivated assassination"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl74nrzwh2u

    Did she not worship at the feet of trump enough and was expendable?
    Ah my mistake I saw rep. Melissa hortman and assumed it meant republican
    Rep. is short for Representative, not Republican which is shown as (R) versus (D)

    Rep. is their equivalent of MP.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    Leaders should be at much if not more risk than followers it might concentrate their minds before they launch a war
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,842
    @atrupar.com‬

    law enforcement officials say they made a proactive check at Rep. Hortman's home after a lawmaker who lived nearby was shot and found a "police vehicle in the driveway with emergency lights and what appeared to be a police officer at the door coming out of the house." He was actually the gunman.

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl7qe63qx2h
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    Everything is the product of minds.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,523

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    Everything is the product of minds.
    Naturally but there is a difference between minds interpreting something that is actually part of reality and something that is wholly the product of their own minds
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,842
    @atrupar.com‬

    Law enforcement official on Hortman shooting: "It was knocking on the door and asking the person to come out. Absolutely impersonating a police officer ... we have the suspect's car. The suspect is on foot."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl7vtfbge23
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,270
    Grim start to the day in USA.

    And huge protests and Trump parade to come later.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,643
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    If a state is doing it as a part of war, then its a just target.

    Don't go to war if you don't want to fight. Leadership are legitimate, just targets.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,842
    @atrupar.com‬

    Law enforcement official: "When we did a search of the vehicle, there was a manifesto that identified many lawmakers and other officials." (The suspect is not in custody at this time.)

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl7xingmu23
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157
    edited June 14
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    law enforcement officials say they made a proactive check at Rep. Hortman's home after a lawmaker who lived nearby was shot and found a "police vehicle in the driveway with emergency lights and what appeared to be a police officer at the door coming out of the house." He was actually the gunman.

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl7qe63qx2h

    I note they didn't open fire and ask questions later in this circumstance.
    How do they know he was "impersonating" a Police Officer whilst wearing a Police uniform and driving a police vehicle?
    What led them to conclude that?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    We should encourage states to do it more and in fact make enemy leaders the prime target

    a) Leaders are sancrosanct and no launching a war they wont be targetted
    b) Leaders are prime targets in any war

    which of a) or b) do you consider will make a national leader less likely to start a war?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Pagan2 said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    We should encourage states to do it more and in fact make enemy leaders the prime target

    a) Leaders are sancrosanct and no launching a war they wont be targetted
    b) Leaders are prime targets in any war

    which of a) or b) do you consider will make a national leader less likely to start a war?
    b) was a tactic successfully used by hassan i sabah, it seemed to work well
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,910
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    Two plausible (maybe not good, but plausable) reasons for that.

    One is that if you decapitate the other nation, it's harder for them to send someone to sign the surrender documents.

    The other reason for the taboo is that if there isn't an unwritten law against killing them, there also isn't an unwritten law against them killing you...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,861

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    There's also the point that people make about Putin: if a leader is removed from power, the replacement might be, from your perspective, worse. Personally, I think that fear is overplayed in Putin's case, but there is certainly something to be said for the fact that the existing leader is a known quantity. A new leader might not be.

    We had several plans to kill Hitler during WW2, and one, Operation Foxley, is fairly well known. IMV that got overrun by events.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Foxley
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,907
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    They are welcome to try.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,604
    edited June 14
    fpt

    This is pretty shocking to be honest. 53% have no or not very much confidence in the British judicial system according to YouGov.

    https://www.twitter.com/YouGov/status/1932737179219792173
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,672

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    Israel's actions are not out of the blue.

    You'll never accept Israel's right to self-defence will you?
    Will you accept that other countries have that right as well?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,604

    Shifty review – Adam Curtis’s new show is an utter rarity: stylish, intelligent TV with something to say

    The celebrated documentarian’s five-part series charts the decline of Britain’s democracy with a witty, kaleidoscopic selection of archive footage. It begins, of course, with Margaret Thatcher

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/jun/14/shifty-review-adam-curtis-new-show-bbc-iplayer

    Thanks for reminding me about this, I read an article about it a few weeks ago but had forgotten about it. Adam Curtis is always worth watching even if he's sometimes a bit long-winded.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157
    edited June 14
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Law enforcement official: "When we did a search of the vehicle, there was a manifesto that identified many lawmakers and other officials." (The suspect is not in custody at this time.)

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lrl7xingmu23

    I wonder if this crosses the line into terrorism?
    Or not?
    Stay tuned for the drama of the All American mental gymnastics championships next!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    Two plausible (maybe not good, but plausable) reasons for that.

    One is that if you decapitate the other nation, it's harder for them to send someone to sign the surrender documents.

    The other reason for the taboo is that if there isn't an unwritten law against killing them, there also isn't an unwritten law against them killing you...
    Firstly well I am sure the chain of command applies so they send the highest official to sign surrender

    Secondly....why should we grant our own leaders from immunity....if hussain had taken out blair thats blairs problem for starting the war in the first place....why should he claim immunity when he was happy to send so many to their deaths.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,157
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    Everything is the product of minds.
    Naturally but there is a difference between minds interpreting something that is actually part of reality and something that is wholly the product of their own minds
    I get that.
    Unless "reality" is wholly the product of our minds.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    This is pretty shocking to be honest. 53% have no or not very much confidence in the British judicial system according to YouGov.

    https://www.twitter.com/YouGov/status/1932737179219792173

    I am surprised its as high as 47% don't express no confidence. It is a failing system from the police to the courts to the jails. I have said before more and more people don't even bother reporting crime unless they need a number for the insurance. There is no confidence in the police to investigate and make an arrest, no confidence even if the police do they will actually ever get charged, no confidence even if they get charged the extent of the sentence wont be don't be naughty and do it again
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,658
    Andy_JS said:

    fpt

    This is pretty shocking to be honest. 53% have no or not very much confidence in the British judicial system according to YouGov.

    https://www.twitter.com/YouGov/status/1932737179219792173

    How can one know what the answers mean? If it means 'I have no confidence in the legal system because it is only open to the rich, chancers and the criminal classes and everything takes too long' they are on quite good ground.

    If it means 'Judges are corrupt and dim' I think their ground is less secure.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    Everything is the product of minds.
    Naturally but there is a difference between minds interpreting something that is actually part of reality and something that is wholly the product of their own minds
    I get that.
    Unless "reality" is wholly the product of our minds.
    Reality I suspect is probably mostly the consensus product of the observers minds, quantum physics seems to point that way to a certain extent
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,861
    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    I understand you don't like the Israeli state. That's a fair and arguable position.

    What I don't understand is why you seem so pro-Iran.

    If your position was "a pox on both their houses," then again, I could understand it. But the Iranian state is a terrible, repressive entity, and should not be supported just because they are Israel's enemy (and fund many of Israel's other enemies).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    I understand you don't like the Israeli state. That's a fair and arguable position.

    What I don't understand is why you seem so pro-Iran.

    If your position was "a pox on both their houses," then again, I could understand it. But the Iranian state is a terrible, repressive entity, and should not be supported just because they are Israel's enemy (and fund many of Israel's other enemies).
    Same reason maybe why he doesn't think Roman Polanski should answer for child sodomy?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,861
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    This discussion made me look up assassinated state leaders, and naturally enough, Wiki has a list:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_and_government_who_were_assassinated_or_executed

    The last was in 2021, and the one before 2011 (Gadaffi). But there were many in the 1980s and 1990s.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,774
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    Nonsense. The IRA is the representative of the legitimate Irish Republic declared in 1916 and ratified by the Irish People in 1918. It is to that Republic that everyone born in Ireland owes their allegiance, not to the 26 County or 6 County quisling entities imposed by the British Crown.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    This discussion made me look up assassinated state leaders, and naturally enough, Wiki has a list:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_and_government_who_were_assassinated_or_executed

    The last was in 2021, and the one before 2011 (Gadaffi). But there were many in the 1980s and 1990s.
    Besides a ban on leader assassination would put us all in the dodgy position of having to pretend to be upset about trumps
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,658
    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    A comment, source: the British Library:

    It’s a major peeve of many medieval historians: the popular belief that people who lived before Christopher Columbus thought that the world was flat. It is actually rare to find groups in the classical, Late Antique and medieval eras who believed in the flat Earth. On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round.

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    This discussion made me look up assassinated state leaders, and naturally enough, Wiki has a list:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_and_government_who_were_assassinated_or_executed

    The last was in 2021, and the one before 2011 (Gadaffi). But there were many in the 1980s and 1990s.
    And how many failed e.g. how many times did the US try to get Castro.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    A comment, source: the British Library:

    It’s a major peeve of many medieval historians: the popular belief that people who lived before Christopher Columbus thought that the world was flat. It is actually rare to find groups in the classical, Late Antique and medieval eras who believed in the flat Earth. On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round.

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html
    They are of course both wrong, the world is cuboid pooped out by the celestial wombat as it wanders the universe nods :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,684
    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    Nonsense. The IRA is the representative of the legitimate Irish Republic declared in 1916 and ratified by the Irish People in 1918. It is to that Republic that everyone born in Ireland owes their allegiance, not to the 26 County or 6 County quisling entities imposed by the British Crown.
    That was a different IRA.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,190

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas
    Israel's actions are not out of the blue.

    You'll never accept Israel's right to self-defence will you?
    I do.

    This is not self defence. This is an attack on a hostile nearby country but represents a significant escalation.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    This discussion made me look up assassinated state leaders, and naturally enough, Wiki has a list:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_and_government_who_were_assassinated_or_executed

    The last was in 2021, and the one before 2011 (Gadaffi). But there were many in the 1980s and 1990s.
    And how many failed e.g. how many times did the US try to get Castro.
    Failing is not a reason to not try
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,052
    edited June 14
    Did Today's Wordle answer have a connection to this thread?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,658
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    Everything is the product of minds.
    Naturally but there is a difference between minds interpreting something that is actually part of reality and something that is wholly the product of their own minds
    I get that.
    Unless "reality" is wholly the product of our minds.
    That we cannot under any circumstances get outside our minds to have a think about what anything may be like outside of our experience - and indeed whether 'what it is like outside our experience' is meaningful - is, along with 'why is there something rather than nothing' the primary puzzle and the origin of the world's least intelligible book - Kant's first critique.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,190
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one
    for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    They invented time travel to avoid the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs but miscalibrated the dial because they were using imperial not metric by mistake? Hence they arrived in the present day rather than a 20 million years ago

    That’s it, isn’t it!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,244

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    Two plausible (maybe not good, but plausable) reasons for that.

    One is that if you decapitate the other nation, it's harder for them to send someone to sign the surrender documents.

    The other reason for the taboo is that if there isn't an unwritten law against killing them, there also isn't an unwritten law against them killing you...
    The rather more forceful reason is that it's seen as a substitute for war - and ends up precipitating wars anyway.

    I think it's seriously naive to think it a change that will act as a force for stability.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,774

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    The IRA was not a state actor.
    I assumed that would be implicit in my post, but clearly you need it spelled out.
    Nonsense. The IRA is the representative of the legitimate Irish Republic declared in 1916 and ratified by the Irish People in 1918. It is to that Republic that everyone born in Ireland owes their allegiance, not to the 26 County or 6 County quisling entities imposed by the British Crown.
    That was a different IRA.
    Bullshit. The Provisional IRA is the representative of the all-island that Irish Republic continues to exist, is that state's army, the sole legitimate successor to the original IRA from the Irish War of Independence.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,604
    edited June 14

    Did Today's Wordle answer have a connection to this thread?

    I just had a go for the first time in ages — my first guess was "train" as usual, but then I went for "ghoul" and almost got it right. Weird. (Sorry for the spoiler).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    Are you expecting a visit from Mrs T, too ?
    No, I just find the ultra rationalist approach somewhat arrogant and condescending. We should be less confident about what we know. Kay was right.
    The trouble with ultra rationalism is

    Person A sees something that current science cant explain.....Now mostly that will be imagination, misinterpretation etc.....there will be however a tiny percentage that probably needs to be looked at. I am sure this is the attitude galilleo experienced....hey my observations don't support everything revolving around us, looks more like we revolve around the sun.

    I have no doubt most of the ephemera observed are bollocks and products of minds, if so no problem dismissing it. My concern is more that things are often categorized as such with no investigation because they sound similar to other things. I am pretty sure for example native people had been catching coelecanths for centuries but there statements dismissed as it was extinct for 50 million years....till a western scientist actually saw one. The alternative would be no one had seen one
    for 50 million years then we suddenly started catching them....I know which my money is on.
    They invented time travel to avoid the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs but miscalibrated the dial because they were using imperial not metric by mistake? Hence they arrived in the present day rather than a 20 million years ago

    That’s it, isn’t it!
    Well that would work if coelecanths showed any evidence of scientific ability. So for your thesis to work it would amount to......we would rather be eaten than prove we have time travel and are highly intelligent fish
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,700
    edited June 14
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,910
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    A comment, source: the British Library:

    It’s a major peeve of many medieval historians: the popular belief that people who lived before Christopher Columbus thought that the world was flat. It is actually rare to find groups in the classical, Late Antique and medieval eras who believed in the flat Earth. On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round.

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html
    And understanding the roundness of the Earth wasn't that difficult;

    https://earthlymission.com/how-the-ancient-greeks-knew-the-earth-was-round-explanation-eratosthenes-circumference/

    Since Carl Sagan's fantastic Cosmos series is clipped in that link, this bad premonition from Sagan the Sage in 1995 feels horribly relevant to both this thread and the wider scene;

    when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what’s true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), the lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,479
    edited June 14
    His new line is he was just talking about one specific boat.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,907

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Quite happy to mock anyone who believes in ghosts.

    Or angels, voodoo, god(s), evil spirits, virgin births, healing crystals or any other supernatural nonsense.

    The people who find it OK to mock some of the list but take others seriously are wryly amusing.

    "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

    A comment, source: the British Library:

    It’s a major peeve of many medieval historians: the popular belief that people who lived before Christopher Columbus thought that the world was flat. It is actually rare to find groups in the classical, Late Antique and medieval eras who believed in the flat Earth. On the contrary, numerous ancient thinkers, navigators and artists observed that the Earth was round.

    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2018/05/the-earth-is-in-fact-round.html
    And understanding the roundness of the Earth wasn't that difficult;

    https://earthlymission.com/how-the-ancient-greeks-knew-the-earth-was-round-explanation-eratosthenes-circumference/

    Since Carl Sagan's fantastic Cosmos series is clipped in that link, this bad premonition from Sagan the Sage in 1995 feels horribly relevant to both this thread and the wider scene;

    when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what’s true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), the lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance.

    The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,910
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars or revolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    It's one thing if a terrorist group does it, another if a state does it.
    Two plausible (maybe not good, but plausable) reasons for that.

    One is that if you decapitate the other nation, it's harder for them to send someone to sign the surrender documents.

    The other reason for the taboo is that if there isn't an unwritten law against killing them, there also isn't an unwritten law against them killing you...
    The rather more forceful reason is that it's seen as a substitute for war - and ends up precipitating wars anyway.

    I think it's seriously naive to think it a change that will act as a force for stability.
    The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must is an incredibly tempting creed if you consider yourself the strongest. It doesn't work at all if you aren't the strongest, and it's awfully dangerous if you are the strongest today... tomorrow, you might be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,684
    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1933911849763819717

    Iranian state-run media has confirmed strikes recently targeted the Phase 14 Refinery of the South Pars Gas Field, the Fajr Jam Natural Gas Refinery, and the Kangan LNG Port on the coast of the Persian Gulf, all in the Bushehr Province of Southern Iran. It appears that Israel has begun strikes against Iran’s economic sector, primarily made up of natural gas and oil facilities along the Persian Gulf.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,376

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1933911849763819717

    Iranian state-run media has confirmed strikes recently targeted the Phase 14 Refinery of the South Pars Gas Field, the Fajr Jam Natural Gas Refinery, and the Kangan LNG Port on the coast of the Persian Gulf, all in the Bushehr Province of Southern Iran. It appears that Israel has begun strikes against Iran’s economic sector, primarily made up of natural gas and oil facilities along the Persian Gulf.

    Hormuz closed by Monday
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,190

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars orrevolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    States have not engaged in targeted assassinations. That began to breakdown with the US use of drones.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968

    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fox News, so who knows ?

    https://x.com/TreyYingst/status/1933493841392177570
    On the strikes against IRGC Air Force leadership: Israel tricked the top command of Iran’s air force into a meeting and then kept them there, I’m told by an Israeli security official.

    “We did specific activities to help us understand things about them and then used that information to make them act in a specific way,” the official said. “We knew this would make them meet, but more importantly we knew how to keep them there.

    All these stories we hear about the Israelis don't make them sound very nice do they? I wonder how the Western world would react if the Iranians had out of the blue sent war planes over and killed several Israeli scientists and their families? The US and UK would go bananas and rightly so
    There has been something of a longstanding taboo against taking out national leaders.

    For better, or for worse, it looks as though that is being extinguished.

    That will have global implications.
    What taboo?

    The IRA targeted Thatcher.

    Many leaders have over time been killed, and many executed following wars orrevolutions too. Its been difficult to get at leaders typically.
    States have not engaged in targeted assassinations. That began to breakdown with the US use of drones.
    That is not an argument to say they shouldn't though.....we have never done it that way is not a reason not to
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