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Incumbency bias – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,493
edited May 28 in General
Incumbency bias – politicalbetting.com

Keir Starmer leads Nigel Farage by 15pts on who Britons think would be the best PMStarmer (44%) vs Farage (29%)Starmer (36%) vs Badenoch (25%)Starmer (27%) vs Davey (25%)Davey (41%) vs Farage (27%)Davey (33%) vs Badenoch (21%)Badenoch (29%) vs Farage (25%)yougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    And what wrong with that ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,765
    edited May 28
    Second, like Farage in all the head to heads, even against the invisible woman.

    I think that Farage as the alternative will drive a lot of tactical voting.

    2029 is a long way off but shaping up to be very unpredictable outcome.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,543
    Nigelb said:

    And what wrong with that ?

    Cryptic
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 844
    It's the wrong sort of incumbency.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    Incumbency comes with a load of downsides when times are tough, as they've been for the last decade or so.
    Only fair there should be the odd upside.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Nigelb said:

    And what wrong with that ?

    Cryptic
    But first...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    Morning All,
    Voting intention polling this morning - YouGov due but More In Common is out and sees the tories dtop under 20% with them for the first time
    23 to 26 May
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 22 (=)
    Con 19 (-2)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 8 (=)

    *subset klaxon* Tories on 3% with 18 to 24 yo lol
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    It's quite worrying though that 29%of people think Nigel Farage, a man who literally can't run a small business, is fit to run the country.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,593
    Pretty obvious really. You'd need a lobotomy that had gone wrong to want Farage as Prime Minister. Starmer if he keeps his cool at least looks and sounds the part
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575
    @SkyNews

    Dominic Cummings has told Sky's
    @wizbates
    he wanted to 'get rid' of Boris Johnson after he went 'rogue' and 'started doing the opposite' of what was promised before the 2019 election.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1927596659849961838

    @KevinASchofield

    Dominic Cummings, who has some experience in these matters, says Kemi Badenoch is "a goner"

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1927616860465299924
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,765

    Morning All,
    Voting intention polling this morning - YouGov due but More In Common is out and sees the tories dtop under 20% with them for the first time
    23 to 26 May
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 22 (=)
    Con 19 (-2)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 8 (=)

    *subset klaxon* Tories on 3% with 18 to 24 yo lol

    Thre are always weird anomalies.

    The 4%of LD voters favouring Farage over Davey in the head to heads is quite some headscratcher, matched by 4% of Reform voters going the other way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,872
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    Dominic Cummings has told Sky's
    @wizbates
    he wanted to 'get rid' of Boris Johnson after he went 'rogue' and 'started doing the opposite' of what was promised before the 2019 election.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1927596659849961838

    @KevinASchofield

    Dominic Cummings, who has some experience in these matters, says Kemi Badenoch is "a goner"

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1927616860465299924

    That's the best news Kemi Badenoch's had in months.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,077
    ydoethur said:

    It's quite worrying though that 29%of people think Nigel Farage, a man who literally can't run a small business, is fit to run the country.

    Could be worse 50% of Americans thought Trump was fit to run a country - and that was after seeing what he did first time round
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,621
    Reposted FPT:

    ...

    There is very low trust in public discourse, but that's partly because that's actively demonstrated by those in it against the public. And both feed off each other.

    I think the police made a serious error yesterday: they've essentially confirmed they take a two-tier approach on declaring the identity of suspects to the media on the basis they don't trust the public to handle the truth, because they believe some are latent racists.

    That will simply widen suspicion of the police, who many believe - with some reason - are more interested in covering up inconvenient truths than being honest.

    I don't disagree that trust is low, and the police (and other bodies) take some of the blame for this.

    But we should all share the blame around. Your last paragraph is the lazy person's way out - don't bother to understand the reasons why the police might be doing this in good faith, just impute bad intentions on the part of a whole cadre of people working for us.

    It also applies a double standard that is rife - many who subscribe to the suspicion you rightly highlight would have scoffed at the words 'institutional racism' which is the mirror image when applied to covering up inconvenient truths about the treatment of black and brown people.

    (It's not clear whether you count yourself amongst the 'many' who believe this - so I am not directing this at you personally.)
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781
    edited May 28

    Nigelb said:

    And what wrong with that ?

    Cryptic
    The sort of polling that is likely to lead to cross words in CCHQ.

    Meanwhile, this is an interesting bit of Kremlinology, even if it is a terrible paper and a terrible politician.

    Today's Telegraph editorial cartoon;



    For all that some want to unite traditional left and traditional right with a stern nanny state, it's not an easy trick to pull off. Farage may be the most gifted grifter of his generation, but even he has limits.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    edited May 28
    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Good numbers for Davey again. Looks like the remaining Conservative vote is roughly 50:50 whether LD:Reform inclined, which is better for Reform than I assumed.

    If the Conservatives disappear then it suggests that Reform could poll into the mid-high 30s, and the LDs into the low 20s.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    edited May 28
    Some other polling bits, GB News had a Red Wall poll from Merlin Strategy (not sure of dates but seems to be 48 tradtional Lab seats)
    Ref 34
    Lab 27
    Con 22
    Ref happy and Con pretty pleased with that compared to national picture id think

    For best PM
    Farage 27
    Starmer 24
    Johnson 12
    Corbyn 9
    Badenoch 8
    Seems a little artificial to give an ex Lab and ex Tory to split those
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253
    maxh said:

    Reposted FPT:

    ...

    There is very low trust in public discourse, but that's partly because that's actively demonstrated by those in it against the public. And both feed off each other.

    I think the police made a serious error yesterday: they've essentially confirmed they take a two-tier approach on declaring the identity of suspects to the media on the basis they don't trust the public to handle the truth, because they believe some are latent racists.

    That will simply widen suspicion of the police, who many believe - with some reason - are more interested in covering up inconvenient truths than being honest.

    I don't disagree that trust is low, and the police (and other bodies) take some of the blame for this.

    But we should all share the blame around. Your last paragraph is the lazy person's way out - don't bother to understand the reasons why the police might be doing this in good faith, just impute bad intentions on the part of a whole cadre of people working for us.

    It also applies a double standard that is rife - many who subscribe to the suspicion you rightly highlight would have scoffed at the words 'institutional racism' which is the mirror image when applied to covering up inconvenient truths about the treatment of black and brown people.

    (It's not clear whether you count yourself amongst the 'many' who believe this - so I am not directing this at you personally.)
    Here is the simple truth - racists and the people whipped into a racist fever - wanted to have their prejudice proven. The MUSLIMS are the bad people so once a disaster happens it must be the MUSLIMS.

    We had the Southport riots spread across the country. Where the Welsh Christian perp was known, but he was an IMMIGRANT and they are all MUSLIMS so let's riot. The police DECEIVED people by not telling us he was a MUSLIM, so we need them to TELL US who these people are.

    And so we have the horror in Liverpool. The police do exactly as they were asked. Release the information immediately. But its the WRONG information. Or maybe it isn't - I've read people doing mental somersaults because some MUSLIMS are WHITE. So in their twisted racist minds there is still some hope.

    What gets me is that we had so many people out on the street videoing as the attack happened. We know precisely who the guy is. What he looks like. The registration of the car. And racist morons are still foaming on about conspiracy.

    The police can't win.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    Some other polling bits, GB News had a Red Wall poll from Merlin Strategy (not sure of dates but seems to be 48 tradtional Lab seats)
    Ref 34
    Lab 27
    Con 22
    Ref happy and Con pretty pleased with that compared to national picture id think

    For best PM
    Farage 27
    Starmer 24
    Johnson 12
    Corbyn 9
    Badenoch 8
    Seems a little artificial to give an ex Lab and ex Tory to split those

    Ah these are the Red Wall seats Boris won but went mostly back to Lab in 2024 1000 sample
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    No, they aren't.

    What's happened is that someone has told Trump that geography means Canada's cooperation is needed to make a continental missile defence system work for the US,

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5320801-trump-canada-considering-free-golden-dome-for-its-statehood/
    President Trump said on Tuesday that Canada is “considering” his offer of joining the United States as the 51st state in exchange for no-cost protection by the proposed “Golden Dome” missile defense system.
    “I told Canada, which very much wants to be part of our fabulous Golden Dome System, that it will cost $61 Billion Dollars if they remain a separate, but unequal, Nation, but will cost ZERO DOLLARS if they become our cherished 51st State,” Trump wrote Tuesday in a post on Truth Social.
    “They are considering the offer!” the president added.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575
    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,567
    Foxy said:

    Morning All,
    Voting intention polling this morning - YouGov due but More In Common is out and sees the tories dtop under 20% with them for the first time
    23 to 26 May
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 22 (=)
    Con 19 (-2)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 8 (=)

    *subset klaxon* Tories on 3% with 18 to 24 yo lol

    Thre are always weird anomalies.

    The 4%of LD voters favouring Farage over Davey in the head to heads is quite some headscratcher, matched by 4% of Reform voters going the other way.
    I tend to view these small numbers as respondent made a mistake when doing the poll .
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    Eabhal said:

    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.

    Well, yes, but there was a desperation to return to "normal" after the pandemic experience. It's rarely talked about or mentioned in conversation these days though it was just five years ago.

    Most people want to forget about it - it wasn't pleasant for a lot of people even those who didn't contract the virus or contracted it asymptomatically.

    As a result, most have gone back to living as though it never happened. You still see in my part of the world the occasional person with a face mask (usually an older person with clear health issues).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    edited May 28
    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    Agree. I'm still extremely pissed off with the whole vibe too, no sense of a debt of gratitude to children, young adults and parents. The stats don't lie - it's had a pretty profound effect on kids, particularly those from deprived backgrounds.

    That people still paid uni fees to be locked up in halls is itself ridiculous. There should be litigation over that.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    edited May 28
    stodge said:

    Eabhal said:

    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.

    Well, yes, but there was a desperation to return to "normal" after the pandemic experience. It's rarely talked about or mentioned in conversation these days though it was just five years ago.

    Most people want to forget about it - it wasn't pleasant for a lot of people even those who didn't contract the virus or contracted it asymptomatically.

    As a result, most have gone back to living as though it never happened. You still see in my part of the world the occasional person with a face mask (usually an older person with clear health issues).
    The Conservatives should have gone big on "personal responsibility". Lose 5 pounds to save the NHS.

    But no, it's always someone else's problem. We need to crack the population out of that attitude.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781
    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    The irony is that the attempts to avoid restrictions created the conditions where longer and stricter conditions were inevitable.

    It's just maths, but it's also impossible for those who see government as being about sheer will to compute.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    .
    stodge said:

    Eabhal said:

    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.

    Well, yes, but there was a desperation to return to "normal" after the pandemic experience. It's rarely talked about or mentioned in conversation these days though it was just five years ago.

    Most people want to forget about it - it wasn't pleasant for a lot of people even those who didn't contract the virus or contracted it asymptomatically.

    As a result, most have gone back to living as though it never happened. You still see in my part of the world the occasional person with a face mask (usually an older person with clear health issues).
    Actually, I still test for Covid when I come down with a cold - which is why I know I've got it now.
    Given how infectious it is, it's only sensible to try to avoid passing it on to co-workers/elderly relatives/immmune compromised.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,664

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    Belarus was the only country to keep their football going during the first lockdown. The medical advice from their President was drink vodka.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,988
    Scott_xP said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
    I know these people are insane and Leavitt is merely a mouthpiece but do they seriously think that reducing the number of Harvard grads will thus increase the number of plumbers?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,988
    Scott_xP said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
    Gunpowder is Chinese witchery.

    Maybe they should close down the US military?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    The irony is that the attempts to avoid restrictions created the conditions where longer and stricter conditions were inevitable.

    It's just maths, but it's also impossible for those who see government as being about sheer will to compute.
    There were many mistakes.
    A couple of examples:

    One was the sheer amount of money blown on 'gold standard' PCR testing - and the slowness to adopt mass scale, far cheaper, and more effective self testing using lateral flow kits.

    Unchecked COVID loan fraud.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    Agree. I'm still extremely pissed off with the whole vibe too, no sense of a debt of gratitude to children, young adults and parents. The stats don't lie - it's had a pretty profound effect on kids, particularly those from deprived backgrounds.

    That people still paid uni fees to be locked up in halls is itself ridiculous. There should be litigation over that.
    Again, the desperate desire to return to "normal" masked the long term consequences (as well as many of the short term ones as well).

    One impact which has continued is public transport usage - the excellent Domestic Transport Use spreadsheet from the Government tells you all you need to know.

    Tube use during the week remains at 85% of what it was pre-Covid but at the weekends it has recovered to be if anything slightly higher than pre-Covid. London Bus use during the week in the low 80s but at the weekend over 90% of pre-Covid numbers.

    National Rail is at 90-95% of pre-Covid numbers as are car journeys (though light commercial vehicles are well up and heavy commercial vehicles just above pre-Covid journey numbers).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Scott_xP said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
    I know these people are insane and Leavitt is merely a mouthpiece but do they seriously think that reducing the number of Harvard grads will thus increase the number of plumbers?
    They are talking about redirecting $3bn of science funding to trade colleges.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,423

    Nigelb said:

    And what wrong with that ?

    Cryptic
    The sort of polling that is likely to lead to cross words in CCHQ.

    Meanwhile, this is an interesting bit of Kremlinology, even if it is a terrible paper and a terrible politician.

    Today's Telegraph editorial cartoon;



    For all that some want to unite traditional left and traditional right with a stern nanny state, it's not an easy trick to pull off. Farage may be the most gifted grifter of his generation, but even he has limits.
    The reality is that 'left' and 'right' are not useful terms. Now that Farage might possibly be involved in governing, the thing to note is that he is gradually joining the only consensus in UK politics: We are a social democrat country and have been since 1945 and everyone who wants to govern starts from this base. This base is not only common to 95% of voters (Marxists and real libertarians make up most of the rest) but also is the engine that spends all the money - the TME - which is 45% of GDP.

    So, to comprehend Farage; Welcome to benefits, pensions, NHS, schools, police; and farewell Singapore, low tax, low spend, no deal Brexit.

    Don't bother asking Farage. Talk to his voters.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    Eabhal said:

    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.

    Well, yes, but there was a desperation to return to "normal" after the pandemic experience. It's rarely talked about or mentioned in conversation these days though it was just five years ago.

    Most people want to forget about it - it wasn't pleasant for a lot of people even those who didn't contract the virus or contracted it asymptomatically.

    As a result, most have gone back to living as though it never happened. You still see in my part of the world the occasional person with a face mask (usually an older person with clear health issues).
    The Conservatives should have gone big on "personal responsibility". Lose 5 pounds to save the NHS.

    But no, it's always someone else's problem. We need to crack the population out of that attitude.
    Strange, the Conservatives used to be very keen on personal responsibility. Indeed, it used to be at the core of their philosophy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,988
    Nigelb said:

    No, they aren't.

    What's happened is that someone has told Trump that geography means Canada's cooperation is needed to make a continental missile defence system work for the US,

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5320801-trump-canada-considering-free-golden-dome-for-its-statehood/
    President Trump said on Tuesday that Canada is “considering” his offer of joining the United States as the 51st state in exchange for no-cost protection by the proposed “Golden Dome” missile defense system.
    “I told Canada, which very much wants to be part of our fabulous Golden Dome System, that it will cost $61 Billion Dollars if they remain a separate, but unequal, Nation, but will cost ZERO DOLLARS if they become our cherished 51st State,” Trump wrote Tuesday in a post on Truth Social.
    “They are considering the offer!” the president added.

    One day we may find out whether he believes this stuff or is simply repeating what the apparatchiks tell him, who of course only tell him what he hopes to hear.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253
    Eabhal said:

    Late night PB is becoming a bit of a meme now.

    The real scandal from COVID was that the working-age population came out with more co-morbidities than it went in with. There was barely any attempt at a public health campaign and we remain just as vulnerable to a new virus due to our weight and sedentary lifestyles.

    In two years, you could safely lose over 100 pounds.

    100 pounds is a lot. I've lost 51 pounds in 17 months and that has taken some effort...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,664
    ydoethur said:

    It's quite worrying though that 29%of people think Nigel Farage, a man who literally can't run a small business, is fit to run the country.

    He is not someone I would ever vote for but I think he is better suited for PM than someone like Jenrick, and perhaps more so than Badenoch. And he is far more suited as LOTO than any other active politician.

    Even from a UK perspective I think continued MAGA in the US through the 30s is more dangerous to us here than Farage getting a go as PM. He will be kicked out after the first term (less if a small majority/coalition) as he can't afford and doesn't have the capacity to deliver on his promises or even to come close to doing so.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575

    Scott_xP said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
    I know these people are insane and Leavitt is merely a mouthpiece but do they seriously think that reducing the number of Harvard grads will thus increase the number of plumbers?
    It's very difficult to divine their intent. They must know the words they are saying are stupid, but they say them anyway.

    You could imagine a scenario where they think this will get stupid people to vote for them, except they don't expect to face the voters ever again.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    Dan Hodges thinks it’s Farage who should get the incumbency boost

    People have been debating whether Nigel Farage will become Prime Minister. They needn’t bother. For all practical purposes he already is > Daily Mail >

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1927611536354259159?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,575

    Nigelb said:

    No, they aren't.

    What's happened is that someone has told Trump that geography means Canada's cooperation is needed to make a continental missile defence system work for the US,

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5320801-trump-canada-considering-free-golden-dome-for-its-statehood/
    President Trump said on Tuesday that Canada is “considering” his offer of joining the United States as the 51st state in exchange for no-cost protection by the proposed “Golden Dome” missile defense system.
    “I told Canada, which very much wants to be part of our fabulous Golden Dome System, that it will cost $61 Billion Dollars if they remain a separate, but unequal, Nation, but will cost ZERO DOLLARS if they become our cherished 51st State,” Trump wrote Tuesday in a post on Truth Social.
    “They are considering the offer!” the president added.

    One day we may find out whether he believes this stuff or is simply repeating what the apparatchiks tell him, who of course only tell him what he hopes to hear.
    One day the full extent of his mental capabilities will be revealed.

    Maybe some enterprising journalist looking to sell a book will write about it after he leaves office...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,064

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440
    Foxy said:

    Morning All,
    Voting intention polling this morning - YouGov due but More In Common is out and sees the tories dtop under 20% with them for the first time
    23 to 26 May
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 22 (=)
    Con 19 (-2)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 8 (=)

    *subset klaxon* Tories on 3% with 18 to 24 yo lol

    Thre are always weird anomalies.

    The 4%of LD voters favouring Farage over Davey in the head to heads is quite some headscratcher, matched by 4% of Reform voters going the other way.
    4% is close to the number of people who just accidentally click on the wrong button.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    Thrre should be a unit of measurement for Lockdowns. The average time from 'my solemn national duty' to 'bollocks to this'
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,239

    Thrre should be a unit of measurement for Lockdowns. The average time from 'my solemn national duty' to 'bollocks to this'

    How about a “Mone” a tenth of a Mone is a MM and the symbol is M£.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,440
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    The irony is that the attempts to avoid restrictions created the conditions where longer and stricter conditions were inevitable.

    It's just maths, but it's also impossible for those who see government as being about sheer will to compute.
    There were many mistakes.
    A couple of examples:

    One was the sheer amount of money blown on 'gold standard' PCR testing - and the slowness to adopt mass scale, far cheaper, and more effective self testing using lateral flow kits.

    Unchecked COVID loan fraud.
    Early in the pandemic, maybe Feb 20?, the head of WHO said that governments are going to make mistakes, it is inevitable when dealing with a novel global public health crisis. It is not a situation in which you are going to get all the calls right. But this mustn't become a reason to avoid action: not doing anything is also a mistake. We have to do our best, mistakes included.

    I agree. There were many mistakes. There were always going to be many mistakes. We should look at them and learn from them, but some sympathy towards governments is in order.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,065

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Could be that you're all fighting the last pandemic. The next one could be much more transmissable and/or deadly.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    boulay said:

    Thrre should be a unit of measurement for Lockdowns. The average time from 'my solemn national duty' to 'bollocks to this'

    How about a “Mone” a tenth of a Mone is a MM and the symbol is M£.
    The more a lockdownee moans, the more they are likely to undershoot their Mone

    We could have a Golden Sage - the height above a pub table that Covid can't exist meaning you can unmask
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,423
    edited May 28

    ydoethur said:

    It's quite worrying though that 29%of people think Nigel Farage, a man who literally can't run a small business, is fit to run the country.

    He is not someone I would ever vote for but I think he is better suited for PM than someone like Jenrick, and perhaps more so than Badenoch. And he is far more suited as LOTO than any other active politician.

    Even from a UK perspective I think continued MAGA in the US through the 30s is more dangerous to us here than Farage getting a go as PM. He will be kicked out after the first term (less if a small majority/coalition) as he can't afford and doesn't have the capacity to deliver on his promises or even to come close to doing so.
    I don't think we will know what Farage's mnifesto promises are for a long time yet, but he is preparing the ground for the outlines, as he needs one which is not more unicorn like than the others.

    Core elements will be:
    1) Reform voters rely on the social democratic welfare state. We will run it better and take a hit at the wrong sort
    2) Rome was not built in a day
    3) Move towards net zero migration but see (2)
    4) Various costfree pledges about returning to about 1960 except in all the modern things the people of Clacton want to keep. Like telephones, plimsolls and video recorders. Dixon of Dock Green on Saturday evenings
    5) Tax, spend, debt, deficit: Rome was not built in a day but for now we can denounce our predecessors
    6) Stop the boats but Rome was not built in a day.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,070
    isam said:

    Dan Hodges thinks it’s Farage who should get the incumbency boost

    People have been debating whether Nigel Farage will become Prime Minister. They needn’t bother. For all practical purposes he already is > Daily Mail >

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1927611536354259159?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Well, Dan is something of a sage. His solemn pronouncement that 'One day Kemi will lead the Conservative Party' proved to be absolutely, definitely and fabulously spot on!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    The bit of political space I will happily die on is "sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, because they are the least bad option".

    Many of us are so used to getting what we want, when we want it at least some of the time (me included), that it sends us dolally when that breaks down. And any political decisions with bad consequences become a conspiracy, rather than humans doing what they judge best.

    And I know that is Pure Dad, centrist or otherwise. So be it.
    There's a good argument to make that policy evolved pretty badly over the course of the pandemic.
    (And I made quite a few of those arguments myself, at the time.)

    But the initial reaction, or something very similar, was simply unavoidable.
    The irony is that the attempts to avoid restrictions created the conditions where longer and stricter conditions were inevitable.

    It's just maths, but it's also impossible for those who see government as being about sheer will to compute.
    There were many mistakes.
    A couple of examples:

    One was the sheer amount of money blown on 'gold standard' PCR testing - and the slowness to adopt mass scale, far cheaper, and more effective self testing using lateral flow kits.

    Unchecked COVID loan fraud.
    Early in the pandemic, maybe Feb 20?, the head of WHO said that governments are going to make mistakes, it is inevitable when dealing with a novel global public health crisis. It is not a situation in which you are going to get all the calls right. But this mustn't become a reason to avoid action: not doing anything is also a mistake. We have to do our best, mistakes included.

    I agree. There were many mistakes. There were always going to be many mistakes. We should look at them and learn from them, but some sympathy towards governments is in order.
    Of course.
    But it was the obvious mistakes - persisted in against evolving evidence, and accompanied by fiscal recklessness - which were really annoying.

    And the early mistakes were far more justifiable, of course.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Could be that you're all fighting the last pandemic. The next one could be much more transmissable and/or deadly.
    "Much more transmissible" would be ... impressive.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    isam said:

    Dan Hodges thinks it’s Farage who should get the incumbency boost

    People have been debating whether Nigel Farage will become Prime Minister. They needn’t bother. For all practical purposes he already is > Daily Mail >

    https://x.com/dpjhodges/status/1927611536354259159?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Well, Dan is something of a sage. His solemn pronouncement that 'One day Kemi will lead the Conservative Party' proved to be absolutely, definitely and fabulously spot on!
    He is the Shit Columbo of X. He'll get his arse kicked on a subject, tweet a couple of 'Just One more Thing on....' tweets then scamper off to the next thing he's wrong about.
    He makes me look like I have a clue about things, he's that bad
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064
    Scott_xP said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    You think it' satire, but it's not

    @schooley.bsky.social‬

    You're using math, which has a well known liberal bias.

    https://bsky.app/profile/schooley.bsky.social/post/3lptr7k62ek2z
    But according to some USA educational establishments, isn't maths "racist" ?
  • Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that best PM polling indicates a change of government when the example in 1979 did not?

    Or is the point simply that it’s not a reliable metric and we should ignore it completely?

    I still think my gut is right to say that until Labour shows delivery on things, their position won’t improve. I note health has dropped down the importance list again, is that because it’s being sorted out or just reported on less?

    The economy seems to be holding up fairly well, immigration is falling, if Labour can do something on the boats there is still hope for them yet. Time is still on their side.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,781
    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Could be that you're all fighting the last pandemic. The next one could be much more transmissable and/or deadly.
    "Much more transmissible" would be ... impressive.
    Had we started with one of the variants, rather than classic COVID, that would have been interesting. Or if it had debuted a couple of decades earlier.

    Basically, we were pretty fortunate that vaccines and communications technology had got to the points they had. A few more "thanks, boffins" would be nice, you know.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,800
    Every opposition leader who led their party into government though, Starmer, Cameron and Blair led on the best PM rating since Thatcher.

    Some encouragement for Badenoch that 60% of current Conservative voters prefer her to Farage and Labour, LD and Green voters also prefer her to Farage
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,253

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Max is railing against the cost - financially and sociologically - of lockdown. There are two scenarios - we lock down, or we don't lock down. Max posted "In retrospect I wouldn't have done the first lockdown either." which meant that people would absolutely have been going about their lives and catching covid because then he posted "Yup, people live or die at home. Only take COVID patients under 18, everyone else deals with it at home and assesses their own risk." and "We can't halt everyone's lives because there isn't enough healthcare provision, "

    Note that last part - "we can't halt people's lives". No lockdown = go about your normal routine. If the government was insistent that this happen then people using their "own common sense" and not going into work is a major problem.

    You talked up Sweden endlessly, as if we would have been Sweden. We wouldn't. A wholly different country in terms of geography and population density and travel frequency both from abroad and within. "Just be Sweden" is the "I believe in fairies" solution, where Covid was just the flu and should have been ignored.

    In the real world with no lockdown, people start being seriously ill and dying in large numbers, society ceases to function as people choose to "assess their own risk". Chaos. Which is why in any process it is better to have control than no control.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,800
    edited May 28

    Morning All,
    Voting intention polling this morning - YouGov due but More In Common is out and sees the tories dtop under 20% with them for the first time
    23 to 26 May
    Ref 31 (+1)
    Lab 22 (=)
    Con 19 (-2)
    LD 14 (=)
    Green 8 (=)

    *subset klaxon* Tories on 3% with 18 to 24 yo lol

    By contrast Yougov has the Tories up on 2024 with 18 to 24s to 12%
    https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/VotingIntention_MRP_Results_250519_w.pdf
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702

    Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that best PM polling indicates a change of government when the example in 1979 did not?

    Or is the point simply that it’s not a reliable metric and we should ignore it completely?

    I still think my gut is right to say that until Labour shows delivery on things, their position won’t improve. I note health has dropped down the importance list again, is that because it’s being sorted out or just reported on less?

    The economy seems to be holding up fairly well, immigration is falling, if Labour can do something on the boats there is still hope for them yet. Time is still on their side.

    Most actual voting we have seen via by election, local by elections, mayoralties and the locals this month plus the polling generally currently suggest the following
    1) Reform largest Party
    2) massive lab losses everywhere
    3) Tories struggling to hold 100 seats and potentially struggling to be third largest Party in the HoC
    4) LD advance holding
    5) SNP recovery in seats due to total unionist split

    The unknown is how well the Lab/Con shares recover or rather with Con their voters on strike return as we approach a GE and how much of the Reform vote share is 'protest/disatisfaction'

    Reform 250
    Labour 180
    Con 90
    LD 60
    SNP 40

    The rest/NI 30 doesn't seem a mile off what's likely as we stand
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Could be that you're all fighting the last pandemic. The next one could be much more transmissable and/or deadly.
    "Much more transmissible" would be ... impressive.
    Had we started with one of the variants, rather than classic COVID, that would have been interesting. Or if it had debuted a couple of decades earlier.

    Basically, we were pretty fortunate that vaccines and communications technology had got to the points they had. A few more "thanks, boffins" would be nice, you know.
    The mortality rate is the most important variable - and not just the absolute rate.
    Policy would have to be very different for a pandemic with a mortality rate of 5% plus - or one that disproportionally killed the young rather than the old (as in 1919).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    NHS real time experience

    My mum fell and broke her hip in Marlow last week.

    Waited 4 hours for an ambulance BAD

    Had a private room in hospital GOOD

    Had hip replacement two days later GOOD

    Been asked to buy for her own equipment off Amazon to help her up the stairs and to the toilet because she lives in Havering and the accident and operation took place in Buckinghamshire BAD
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    HYUFD said:

    Every opposition leader who led their party into government though, Starmer, Cameron and Blair led on the best PM rating since Thatcher.

    Some encouragement for Badenoch that 60% of current Conservative voters prefer her to Farage and Labour, LD and Green voters also prefer her to Farage

    Farage does lead as best PM in some polls though. This YouGov has got a lot of attention, but it’s just one pollster
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,593
    edited May 28
    I don't agree that 'Best PM' is a poor metric. Incumbency bias exists.

    It's like a casting (One I did earlier)

    The brief......."You're in Trafalgar Square looking furtive and you're meeting a Russian spy. Think George Cole in the Benson and Hedges Istanbul Ad".

    We're looking at 5 good character actors

    One comes in looks up and does a 20 second sketch with an incontinent pigeon landing one in his eye. It's very funny and everyone falls about.....

    We send the casting tape to the client sure who he'll choose and he wants George Cole (who shuffled off his mortal coil ages ago so was clearly unavailable ......)

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=George+Cole+Benson+and+Hedges+Advert#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:5eca55bb,vid:8BJtclBucVE,st:0
  • Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that best PM polling indicates a change of government when the example in 1979 did not?

    Or is the point simply that it’s not a reliable metric and we should ignore it completely?

    I still think my gut is right to say that until Labour shows delivery on things, their position won’t improve. I note health has dropped down the importance list again, is that because it’s being sorted out or just reported on less?

    The economy seems to be holding up fairly well, immigration is falling, if Labour can do something on the boats there is still hope for them yet. Time is still on their side.

    Most actual voting we have seen via by election, local by elections, mayoralties and the locals this month plus the polling generally currently suggest the following
    1) Reform largest Party
    2) massive lab losses everywhere
    3) Tories struggling to hold 100 seats and potentially struggling to be third largest Party in the HoC
    4) LD advance holding
    5) SNP recovery in seats due to total unionist split

    The unknown is how well the Lab/Con shares recover or rather with Con their voters on strike return as we approach a GE and how much of the Reform vote share is 'protest/disatisfaction'

    Reform 250
    Labour 180
    Con 90
    LD 60
    SNP 40

    The rest/NI 30 doesn't seem a mile off what's likely as we stand
    That’s pretty much where I am.

    But the question remains, what can Labour do that actually moves the dial? As right now they are treading water at around 20%.
  • ConcanvasserConcanvasser Posts: 188
    Our relationships withvthe Commonwealth realms endure, seem even to strengthen, despite decades of official neglect.

    Our King opens the Canadian Parliament, the first monarch to do so for decades, to widespread aclaim from a population breaking 60%+ in support of retainig their links with the Crown. It is not hard to envisage the King or his successor doing so again before nearly as long.

    That Bank of England Governors seemlessly become Prime Ministers and others, like the Bishop of Islington today
    appointed Archbishop of Melbourne, speak of deep and enduring bonds of Kith and Kin.

    It is inconceivable to imagine anything similar happening with our former
    partners in the EU. With no offence to them and to misquote 2TK, they always felt like strangers to many in these islands in a way Auz/Can/NZ never have and I suspect never will.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    Eabhal said:

    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.

    Guardian
    ...Tim Farron, the Lib Dem spokesperson for environment, food and rural affairs has said Thames Water has “saddled customers with its debts and provided them with shoddy service”.

    This should be the final nail in the coffin for Thames Water. It needs to be turned into a public benefit company and Ofwat needs to be scrapped and replaced with a real regulator with teeth.

    Meanwhile Ellie Chowns, Green MP for North Herefordshire, has argued that the water company should be nationalised.

    “This milestone is only the start. We cannot allow private shareholders to reap vast payouts while communities suffer from raw sewage spills and fragile ecosystems collapse.
    The time has come to bring our water services back into public ownership, where accountability and long-term stewardship of our precious resources must come before corporate dividends.

    James Wallace, chief executive of the campaign group River Action, has said “nothing will change unless the privatisation of Thames Water stops”.

    What a miserable mess. Thames Water poured sewage into our rivers for nearly 300,000 hours last year while racking up over £22 billion in debt. It has ripped off customers, damaged the environment, and failed to invest in solutions.

    At last, we are seeing a government using the law and punishing a major polluter. But nothing will change unless the privatisation of Thames Water stops. The Secretary of State for Defra must now put this failing company into Special Administration and restructure its ownership and governance so it can be owned by and operated for public benefit. Only then will the River Thames and customers see an end to pollution for profit...


    Hard to argue with that.
    Recapitalisation via enormous increases in customer bills, for the eventual benefit of a US hedge fund is simply unacceptable.

    Selling off essential public utility monopolies to overseas owners is not in the interest of either consumers, or the national balance sheet,
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,894
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
    She means the humanities. It is a curious anomaly that in America, the liberal arts are regarded as left-wing but in Britain as right-wing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
    She means the humanities. It is a curious anomaly that in America, the liberal arts are regarded as left-wing but in Britain as right-wing.
    What has any of that to do with Harvard's science research funding ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,778
    Scott_xP said:
    A friend who was working as an NHS psychiatrist said that she got a steady stream of people who, while coked up, did appalling things.

    A number were trying to get a medical “out” to try and stop prosecution. “He is on a medical track, and prosecution wouldn’t help anyone.” Etc

    She made herself a bit unpopular by not going with that flow.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    edited May 28

    Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that best PM polling indicates a change of government when the example in 1979 did not?

    Or is the point simply that it’s not a reliable metric and we should ignore it completely?

    I still think my gut is right to say that until Labour shows delivery on things, their position won’t improve. I note health has dropped down the importance list again, is that because it’s being sorted out or just reported on less?

    The economy seems to be holding up fairly well, immigration is falling, if Labour can do something on the boats there is still hope for them yet. Time is still on their side.

    Most actual voting we have seen via by election, local by elections, mayoralties and the locals this month plus the polling generally currently suggest the following
    1) Reform largest Party
    2) massive lab losses everywhere
    3) Tories struggling to hold 100 seats and potentially struggling to be third largest Party in the HoC
    4) LD advance holding
    5) SNP recovery in seats due to total unionist split

    The unknown is how well the Lab/Con shares recover or rather with Con their voters on strike return as we approach a GE and how much of the Reform vote share is 'protest/disatisfaction'

    Reform 250
    Labour 180
    Con 90
    LD 60
    SNP 40

    The rest/NI 30 doesn't seem a mile off what's likely as we stand
    That’s pretty much where I am.

    But the question remains, what can Labour do that actually moves the dial? As right now they are treading water at around 20%.
    Not crash the economy and deliver average growth and they'd get the usual swingback/cling to nurse recovery is my expectation. There is very little that delivers a boost right now - a major immigration victory of some sort perhaps. Or, not that we should wish this, direct war/black Swan
    Tories will hope for the blue wall/sound money (lol) recovery
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,800

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
    She means the humanities. It is a curious anomaly that in America, the liberal arts are regarded as left-wing but in Britain as right-wing.
    No, she means LGBTQ studies, I don't think humanities are regarded as rightwing in either. Indeed virtually every department in most universities leans left of centre apart from maybe engineering and economics
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,760
    It's only taken 37 years for the regulator to start doing its job.

    ...The national water regulator Ofwat has fined Thames Water nearly £123m after two investigations into the company.

    The watchdog has ordered Thames Water to pay a £104.5m penalty for breaches of rules connected to its wastewater operations, which is the largest penalty that Ofwat has ever issued.

    That is on top of an additional penalty of £18.2m for breaches relating to dividend payments. It represents the first time Ofwat has taken action against a company that has paid dividends regardless of its performance.

    The watchdog found Thames Water has caused an “unacceptable impact on the environment and customers”.

    David Black, the chief executive of Ofwat, has said:

    This is a clear-cut case where Thames Water has let down its customers and failed to protect the environment. Our investigation has uncovered a series of failures by the company to build, maintain and operate adequate infrastructure to meet its obligations. The company also failed to come up with an acceptable redress package that would have benefited the environment, so we have imposed a significant financial penalty.
    Thames Water has said that it takes its responsibility towards the environment “very seriously”...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,800
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Every opposition leader who led their party into government though, Starmer, Cameron and Blair led on the best PM rating since Thatcher.

    Some encouragement for Badenoch that 60% of current Conservative voters prefer her to Farage and Labour, LD and Green voters also prefer her to Farage

    Farage does lead as best PM in some polls though. This YouGov has got a lot of attention, but it’s just one pollster
    Does suggest the potential for anti Reform tactical voting at least, even for Tories in Tory v Reform seats
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,816
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
    She means the humanities. It is a curious anomaly that in America, the liberal arts are regarded as left-wing but in Britain as right-wing.
    No, she means LGBTQ studies, I don't think humanities are regarded as rightwing in either. Indeed virtually every department in most universities leans left of centre apart from maybe engineering and economics
    Any subject with “Studies” in the title will be taught by people who lean left.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,894

    Nigelb said:

    With apologies for the FPT but this need saying.

    Problem with the @MaxPB approach to Covid is that it wilfully ignores psychology and the herd mentality. "No lockdown 1" - by which he means everyone told Go About Your Business.

    So how do we enforce that? Weeks before lockdown Tesco abruptly closed their campus to visitors - would Max have sent the police round to enforce them to open up?

    People don't carry on as normal when they see the impacts of Covid. The Australian grand prix was pulled due to personnel getting ill. Football & Rugby would have been decimated, putting the fear into people. Lockdown or no lockdown, a lot of people aren't going to work and their employers aren't forcing them to do so. Work From Home happens anyway with increasing speed.

    Does Max send in the police to force everyone to be "normal"?

    As for "let the NHS be overwhelmed". Again, the psychological impact on people would have been huge. Same with schools where so many staff are sick that the school cannot open. Max sending the police round again? The police are also desperately ill.

    It is - sorry to say it - whining bullshit. Nobody liked lockdown. It was a disaster in so many ways. But the alternative to a controlled lockdown was an uncontrolled lockdown. Instead of the authorities managing the situation we have panicked people managing it themselves. Chaos. Which is a bigger economic and social disaster as Covid rips deeper through society.

    I think you're the one being ignorant here.

    Max never said people should be obliged to go about their business as normal.

    There is a world of difference between people choosing to change their actions, and government diktats saying that you're obliged to do so regardless of preference.

    An uncontrolled lockdown, a la Sweden, is far better than a controlled one. Let people make their own judgments and use their own common sense and do whatever they individually deem appropriate.
    Could be that you're all fighting the last pandemic. The next one could be much more transmissable and/or deadly.
    "Much more transmissible" would be ... impressive.
    Had we started with one of the variants, rather than classic COVID, that would have been interesting. Or if it had debuted a couple of decades earlier.

    Basically, we were pretty fortunate that vaccines and communications technology had got to the points they had. A few more "thanks, boffins" would be nice, you know.
    The eggheads done good – many working at publicly-funded universities here and in America. We must all thank President Trump, oh, hold on...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,632
    It's worth repeating we are perhaps four years from a General Election and considering everything that has happened in the last four years, trying to predict the next four years seems a fool's errand at best.

    At this moment, Farage and Reform are in a strong position and if we were voting now, they would make a big advance in votes and seats on July 2024. Yesterday's speech by Farage, however, was further evidence they are nowhere near ready for Government in terms of a practical policy programme.

    They don't even have a coherent policy for stopping the boats as far as I can see let alone tackling issues such as deporting illegal migrants already here and voluntary repatriation.

    They are as far up the Magic Money Tree as other parties and as someone pointed out on here, no one is offering a coherent approach to reducing the deficit and borrowing. I doubt there's a pot of gold at the end of the DOGE rainbow and cutting Services will more likely impact the Reform core vote than those who aren't supporters.

    More public spending and tax cuts was being peddled in the good times and no one believed it - at a time of anaemic growth, even fewer are going to be convinced and that would include the bond markets were a Reform Chancellor in their first Budget to announce such policies.

    The problem with fiscal rectitude is, noble as it might be, no one wants to be the one holding the bill when the music stops (which is did last July).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,417
    On the Covid, away from the detail of it, I found it heartening - and a little surprising - how 'we' were prepared to prioritise the collective interest. I know the money helped with that, and the law was wielded too, but still, big picture, I think government did ok and response of the population (esp younger people) was more than ok.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064
    Eabhal said:

    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.

    Just wait for the rage if anyone living outside the Thames Water area (the most affluent part of the UK) has to cough up to pay to fix its problems.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,702
    edited May 28
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Every opposition leader who led their party into government though, Starmer, Cameron and Blair led on the best PM rating since Thatcher.

    Some encouragement for Badenoch that 60% of current Conservative voters prefer her to Farage and Labour, LD and Green voters also prefer her to Farage

    Farage does lead as best PM in some polls though. This YouGov has got a lot of attention, but it’s just one pollster
    Does suggest the potential for anti Reform tactical voting at least, even for Tories in Tory v Reform seats
    The tories best hope in tactical voting is for Reform to back them in LD fights in the Home Counties but there is no sign at all of that being remotely likely.
    Tories are generally dreadful at attracting tactical votes, so it would be interesting to see if it starts happening at all where they face Reform - locally i shall therefore keep an eye on NW Norfolk and Broadland/Fakenham both of which will be straight Ref vs Con fights (Con held) with a healthy LD vote to try and squeeze (I figure LD is the most likely source of these potential tacticals if they are to appear)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,894

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Still think a soft Khmer Rouge is the best way to describe the Trump administration. Autarky, anti-intellectual, get people back into fields and factories.
    The iPhone fandango being the most entertaining part. MAGA want a glut of well paid jobs and low inflation where prices for things Americans buy is lower. How do they equate an expensive creation of a manufacturing base in the US plus very expensive compared to elsewhere costs of manufacture to lower prices? It's like they have forgotten basic mathematics.

    And then you remember. As always, Iannouchi called it. Jonah Ryan in Veep, campaigning for President by railing against the evils of "Islamic math"
    MAGA = bad economics and bad maths.

    Our political establishment believes the way to counter Reform is to expose their bad economics and bad maths.

    Well, if it worked in America... Oh, hold on, Trump was re-elected. I swear we are ruled by politicians who know damn all about politics.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,894
    edited May 28
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    I seriously doubt that the science base the administration is in the process of destroying is significantly more LGBTQ than the rest of the country.
    Even if that were the case, is homophobia really a justification ?

    Leavitt: "Electricians, plumbers -- we need more of those in our country, and less LGBTQ graduate majors from Harvard University. And that's what this administration's position is."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1927534822701826111

    Ignoring the less/fewer SNAFU, does she mean graduates who are gay, or does she mean degrees in subjects that are 'gay' ?

    N.B. She herself is a graduate in communications...
    She means the humanities. It is a curious anomaly that in America, the liberal arts are regarded as left-wing but in Britain as right-wing.
    No, she means LGBTQ studies, I don't think humanities are regarded as rightwing in either. Indeed virtually every department in most universities leans left of centre apart from maybe engineering and economics
    Write a list of well-known politicians who have championed a liberal arts education. I'll start you off – Michael Gove.

    To repeat, in Britain, this is reckoned a right-wing indulgence. In America, left.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,578

    Eabhal said:

    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.

    Just wait for the rage if anyone living outside the Thames Water area (the most affluent part of the UK) has to cough up to pay to fix its problems.
    Although funnily enough the same people who would be outraged are happy enough to live on gigantic subsidies on virtually everything else, from those same parts of the UK, year in, year out.

    Decades of socialism and soft-socialism have made freeloading a way of life for at least two thirds of this country, and they get absolutely outraged when those who pay for this country ask for a tiny bit of their own money back.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    edited May 28
    kinabalu said:

    On the Covid, away from the detail of it, I found it heartening - and a little surprising - how 'we' were prepared to prioritise the collective interest. I know the money helped with that, and the law was wielded too, but still, big picture, I think government did ok and response of the population (esp younger people) was more than ok.

    I was astonished how little argument from there was from the public to the government’s response to covid. It felt to me like a real life Milgram experiment, with similar results. Personally I pretty much stuck to the rules, and even had two of the jabs, but I always felt like I was being had over a bit. Lots of my mates, probably 40%, didn’t have any jabs, and to be fair to them, they’re all none the worse for it

  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,064
    Fishing said:

    Eabhal said:

    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.

    Just wait for the rage if anyone living outside the Thames Water area (the most affluent part of the UK) has to cough up to pay to fix its problems.
    Although funnily enough the same people who would be outraged are happy enough to live on gigantic subsidies on virtually everything else, from those same parts of the UK, year in, year out.

    Decades of socialism and soft-socialism have made freeloading a way of life for at least two thirds of this country, and they get absolutely outraged when those who pay for this country ask for a tiny bit of their own money back.
    We are all freeloading off our grandchildren - look at the size of the National Debt.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,425
    kinabalu said:

    On the Covid, away from the detail of it, I found it heartening - and a little surprising - how 'we' were prepared to prioritise the collective interest. I know the money helped with that, and the law was wielded too, but still, big picture, I think government did ok and response of the population (esp younger people) was more than ok.

    The letter sent by Boris Johnson to every household during the first lockdown was very well written.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,891
    A new one? Tories up three points

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 29% (-)
    LAB: 21% (-1)
    CON: 19% (+3)
    LDEM: 15% (-2)
    GRN: 11% (+1)

    via @YouGov, 26 May
    Chgs. w/ 19 May
    britainelects.com


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927648604786704544?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,523
    isam said:

    A new one? Tories up three points

    📊 Ref lead of 8pts
    Westminster voting intention

    REF: 29% (-)
    LAB: 21% (-1)
    CON: 19% (+3)
    LDEM: 15% (-2)
    GRN: 11% (+1)

    via @YouGov, 26 May
    Chgs. w/ 19 May
    britainelects.com


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1927648604786704544?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    That green % is absolutely killing Labour.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,768
    Fishing said:

    Eabhal said:

    Note that there is screaming rage at Thames Water this morning.

    Just wait for the rage if anyone living outside the Thames Water area (the most affluent part of the UK) has to cough up to pay to fix its problems.
    Although funnily enough the same people who would be outraged are happy enough to live on gigantic subsidies on virtually everything else, from those same parts of the UK, year in, year out.

    Decades of socialism and soft-socialism have made freeloading a way of life for at least two thirds of this country, and they get absolutely outraged when those who pay for this country ask for a tiny bit of their own money back.
    You're talking about shareholders freeloading on consumer water bills, right?

    Thames Water is a losing wicket if you're trying to critique socialism. Support for nationalisation was 82% last year. It must be approaching 100% by now.
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