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The latest White House 2028 betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291
    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,183
    Barnesian said:

    Dopermean said:

    Barnesian said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:
    "She bought her two-bedroom leasehold flat in West Hampstead, in a converted synagogue, in 2004 for £350,000. By 2016, the flat had been given a valuation of £800,000, so Davidson assumed that she was well on her way to making a healthy profit.

    But after putting her property on the market for £725,000 last year – the amount an estate agent told her it was worth – she was unable to secure a sale."

    Diddums.
    That 2016 "valuation" looks highball to me. But it's true that London property prices are well off their peak. A good thing on balance, I'd say, although it will cause genuine problems for some people.
    Well tough for those who see a property as an asset class and not a place to live.

    The woman in this article is still well ahead on what she paid in 2004. Her expectation is above what the property is worth.
    To be fair with the outrageous charges on leasehold flats and cladding issues, I would expect she has quite a lot further to drop, even if it is saleable
    Well quite. It doesn’t mention how long the lease is either.

    Is 4 grand a year service charge a lot these days for London.

    When I had a flat in Brum I was paying around £1,000 a year but I left in 2000.
    I pay £4K+ a year on my flat. I think it's worth it.
    It depends how much maintenance work is required on the communal parts. There'll a lot of flat owners disappointed when it changes from leasehold to share of freehold (essentially) and they get the same bill for the same maintenance work.
    Appointing a good managing agent is the key.
    My £4K is £2K for maintenance (cleaning, gardening, porter, insurance, minor repairs, utilities in common areas etc.)
    The other £2K is into a fund for the regular seven year outdoor repairs and maintenance with scaffolding, plus internal decorations of the common areas.
    The freehold is jointly owned through a company of which I am a director. So I help, with the rest of the board, to determine the service charge. It is under control.
    That is very like my situation. In just over 20 years we have had 4 managing agents - the current one is by far the best. I had 2 spells as chair of the company which holds the freehold and learned a lot.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,458

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451

    isam said:

    One of the strangest accounts on X is ‘Parody Keir Starmer’ /@parody_PM… parody accounts are usually ridiculously exaggerated caricatures of their subject, with posts crafted to make them look bad, but this one is a fan of Starmer’s and just criticises other politicians or those who don’t vote Labour.

    Or Larry The Cat who's just a bloke who really hates Tories and Reform
    No, he's a cat. He's often in shot in Downing St photos.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Partly. And no immigrant hotels and the rest from savings on Quangos. I.e. made up rubbish
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,080
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    One of the strangest accounts on X is ‘Parody Keir Starmer’ /@parody_PM… parody accounts are usually ridiculously exaggerated caricatures of their subject, with posts crafted to make them look bad, but this one is a fan of Starmer’s and just criticises other politicians or those who don’t vote Labour.

    Or Larry The Cat who's just a bloke who really hates Tories and Reform
    No, he's a cat. He's often in shot in Downing St photos.
    He may, ofcourse, be a cat who doesn't like Reform. Cats are often conscientious and empathic creatures, I find.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758
    edited May 27
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    One of the strangest accounts on X is ‘Parody Keir Starmer’ /@parody_PM… parody accounts are usually ridiculously exaggerated caricatures of their subject, with posts crafted to make them look bad, but this one is a fan of Starmer’s and just criticises other politicians or those who don’t vote Labour.

    Or Larry The Cat who's just a bloke who really hates Tories and Reform
    No, he's a cat. He's often in shot in Downing St photos.
    The real Larry is wonderful. X Larry is a cat impersonating tit
    Also, lol
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    edited May 27

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.

    Sounds improbable. Part of the magic money tree/ vague 'reform' model of policy making which assumes extremely easy solutions to major problems without significant public cost.

    But if people are arguing over how much can be saved from something the public are unlikely to, in general, think positively of, the message is probably net win even if the amount is unreaslitic.

    You can get away with a lot if more people like you than dislike you (or dislike others more) - that will be what decides if it works.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,458
    edited May 27
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    Yes: magic money tree, magic geography warping machine, etc etc.

    If a Labour politician attempted a policy agenda with the same assortment of fantasy, which even new convert Tim
    Montgomerie admits “doesn’t add up” (as indeed Corbyn’s lot tried in 2017 and 2019) they’d be laughed out of town by the entire media class.

    It’s bloke down the pub stuff.
    Talking of Labour the Ming vase strategy didn't stop a landslide but look where we are now
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,458

    If anybody's wondering why it's been such a wet and miserable day today after the long dry spring, I have the answer for you:

    We broke ground this morning on our self-build project after months of design and planning.

    Exciting... and daunting.

    Good luck [and weather]
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,458

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    Yes: magic money tree, magic geography warping machine, etc etc.

    If a Labour politician attempted a policy agenda with the same assortment of fantasy, which even new convert Tim
    Montgomerie admits “doesn’t add up” (as indeed Corbyn’s lot tried in 2017 and 2019) they’d be laughed out of town by the entire media class.

    It’s bloke down the pub stuff.
    the Minge vase strategy
    *nods sagely at all the minges*

    Edit - too slow Big G. I saw your minge.
    Spelling corrected !!!!!!¡
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,141
    SandraMc said:

    Barnesian said:

    Trump is more likely to get an Oscar before he gets a Nobel prize.

    Quiz: Which two people have got both an Oscar and a Nobel prize?
    (Without googling).

    Sea Biscuit
    Bob Dylan and George Bernard Shaw.
    Correct. Well done. You read the same newspaper as me I think.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    Yes: magic money tree, magic geography warping machine, etc etc.

    If a Labour politician attempted a policy agenda with the same assortment of fantasy, which even new convert Tim
    Montgomerie admits “doesn’t add up” (as indeed Corbyn’s lot tried in 2017 and 2019) they’d be laughed out of town by the entire media class.

    It’s bloke down the pub stuff.
    the Minge vase strategy
    *nods sagely at all the minges*

    Edit - too slow Big G. I saw your minge.
    Spelling corrected !!!!!!¡
    But I captured it for posterior :smiley:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,546
    Hah, who was it on here who preceptively suggested yesterday that the incident might be caused by "some coked-up wanker'?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn5xnlkegz0t?post=asset:9ced0aea-25aa-4f38-8f1c-d27e2031f2ab#post
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    viewcode said:

    Elon Musk has been promising full self driving every year since 2015.

    I’m not sure if many people here work in the software engineering industry but the term is vapourware.

    Elon promising robotaxis "next year" since 2014

    https://bsky.app/profile/consumerhorse.bsky.social/post/3lpwsc5r2zk2h
    I know his personal reputation has taken a hit in the last couple of years, but the overpromising in certain subject areas really is a bit much even for the companies which have done well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,832

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    It's a hell of a sight further by boat from Indonesia to Australia than it is from France to Kent.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    I sometimes think part of the problem with refuting the current, surging incarnation of Reform is that they want to present as radically different, and part of the time Labour will attack them on that basis (the Tories, if they are doing attacking Reform, I have barely noticed), but other times they are going for the reassuring 'won't change too much' which pleases the grey vote so much, so you'd need to attack them for being potentially too radical, but also not as radical and different as they claim they are. Which can obviously come across as a bit incoherent.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,546

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    Yes: magic money tree, magic geography warping machine, etc etc.

    If a Labour politician attempted a policy agenda with the same assortment of fantasy, which even new convert Tim
    Montgomerie admits “doesn’t add up” (as indeed Corbyn’s lot tried in 2017 and 2019) they’d be laughed out of town by the entire media class.

    It’s bloke down the pub stuff.
    the Minge vase strategy
    *nods sagely at all the minges*

    Edit - too slow Big G. I saw your minge.
    Spelling corrected !!!!!!¡
    But I captured it for posterior :smiley:
    You've got to feel for the people who live in Minge Lane, Upton on Severn.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,421

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 848

    Nigelb said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    So he's been protecting Russia ?
    No different to under Biden. The US doesn't want the gloves taken off because they're afraid of escalation.
    Does that involve windows?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863
    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    He admires Putin for his 'strength' and despises Ukraine. Vance may be more obvious about that than Trump but it fits a lot of the actions he's taken.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758
    edited May 27
    4 by elections this week
    Interesting Lab defence in Camarthen, see Reforms progress in Wales
    LD in Lewes should be a hold
    Localists in Castle Point - they run again but Con vs Reform totals in the craphole that is Canvey Island might be interesting
    Indy in Maldon - Con/Ref totals interesting again but LDs did well here in 2023
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:
    "She bought her two-bedroom leasehold flat in West Hampstead, in a converted synagogue, in 2004 for £350,000. By 2016, the flat had been given a valuation of £800,000, so Davidson assumed that she was well on her way to making a healthy profit.

    But after putting her property on the market for £725,000 last year – the amount an estate agent told her it was worth – she was unable to secure a sale."

    Diddums.
    That 2016 "valuation" looks highball to me. But it's true that London property prices are well off their peak. A good thing on balance, I'd say, although it will cause genuine problems for some people.
    Well tough for those who see a property as an asset class and not a place to live.

    The woman in this article is still well ahead on what she paid in 2004. Her expectation is above what the property is worth.
    To be fair with the outrageous charges on leasehold flats and cladding issues, I would expect she has quite a lot further to drop, even if it is saleable
    So Nigel and his admirers are allowed to slag off Sir Keir and Kemi no end (as we see plenty of on here) but the moment Labour are beastly about Nigel then that's utterly beyond the pale?
    Not sure what that is to do with my comment
    I was replying to your previous one!
    Actually Labour should rise above the fray rather than give Farage the attention he desires
    And the BBC should give him the amount of attention they give the Green Party, not run to him every time there's an issue he wants to talk about.
    Maybe if the greens had anything to say that people wanted to listen to they would?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,832

    4 by elections this week
    Interesting Lab defence in Camarthen, see Reforms progress in Wales
    LD in Lewes should be a hold
    Localists in Castle Point - they run again but Con vs Reform totals in the craphole that is Canvey Island might be interesting
    Indy in Maldon - Con/Ref totals interesting again but LDs did well here in 2023

    Canvey Island is not a craphole. It has it's problems, yes, living there engenders pride in one's home town.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446
    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    edited May 27
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:
    "She bought her two-bedroom leasehold flat in West Hampstead, in a converted synagogue, in 2004 for £350,000. By 2016, the flat had been given a valuation of £800,000, so Davidson assumed that she was well on her way to making a healthy profit.

    But after putting her property on the market for £725,000 last year – the amount an estate agent told her it was worth – she was unable to secure a sale."

    Diddums.
    That 2016 "valuation" looks highball to me. But it's true that London property prices are well off their peak. A good thing on balance, I'd say, although it will cause genuine problems for some people.
    Well tough for those who see a property as an asset class and not a place to live.

    The woman in this article is still well ahead on what she paid in 2004. Her expectation is above what the property is worth.
    To be fair with the outrageous charges on leasehold flats and cladding issues, I would expect she has quite a lot further to drop, even if it is saleable
    So Nigel and his admirers are allowed to slag off Sir Keir and Kemi no end (as we see plenty of on here) but the moment Labour are beastly about Nigel then that's utterly beyond the pale?
    Not sure what that is to do with my comment
    I was replying to your previous one!
    Actually Labour should rise above the fray rather than give Farage the attention he desires
    And the BBC should give him the amount of attention they give the Green Party, not run to him every time there's an issue he wants to talk about.
    Maybe if the greens had anything to say that people wanted to listen to they would?
    To give them their due they managed to bag 4 seats at the last general election, so someone is listening.

    They’ll continue to take bites out of Labour and Tory support so long as a. Israel keeps acting like it is and b. rivers in pretty rural areas keep being killed off by chicken farm eutrophication.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,431
    kle4 said:

    I sometimes think part of the problem with refuting the current, surging incarnation of Reform is that they want to present as radically different, and part of the time Labour will attack them on that basis (the Tories, if they are doing attacking Reform, I have barely noticed), but other times they are going for the reassuring 'won't change too much' which pleases the grey vote so much, so you'd need to attack them for being potentially too radical, but also not as radical and different as they claim they are. Which can obviously come across as a bit incoherent.

    The refutation problem is various.

    1) Tory and Labour can't seriously attack anyone on competence
    2) Tory and Labour can't attack anyone on consistency
    3) The PM can't attack anyone on policy steadfastness
    4) No-one can attack Reform on the basic outline of migration policy or boats
    5) No-one can attack them on not having an underlying set of principles which underlie all their policies
    6) Tory and Labour can't attack them on supporting Brexit
    7) Reform keep admitting - this very day - that their plans currently don't work WRT to the public finances, but they will put it right in due course. This, while useless, and of course untrue, expresses a degree of honesty absent in the others and is no more useless and untrue than the others.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796
    kle4 said:

    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

    We couldn't afford the travel insurance for the full regalia.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,967

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,546
    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    Because he admires Putin and seeks to emulate his authoritarian, illiberal, anti-woke style.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    Pagan2 said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:
    "She bought her two-bedroom leasehold flat in West Hampstead, in a converted synagogue, in 2004 for £350,000. By 2016, the flat had been given a valuation of £800,000, so Davidson assumed that she was well on her way to making a healthy profit.

    But after putting her property on the market for £725,000 last year – the amount an estate agent told her it was worth – she was unable to secure a sale."

    Diddums.
    That 2016 "valuation" looks highball to me. But it's true that London property prices are well off their peak. A good thing on balance, I'd say, although it will cause genuine problems for some people.
    Well tough for those who see a property as an asset class and not a place to live.

    The woman in this article is still well ahead on what she paid in 2004. Her expectation is above what the property is worth.
    To be fair with the outrageous charges on leasehold flats and cladding issues, I would expect she has quite a lot further to drop, even if it is saleable
    So Nigel and his admirers are allowed to slag off Sir Keir and Kemi no end (as we see plenty of on here) but the moment Labour are beastly about Nigel then that's utterly beyond the pale?
    Not sure what that is to do with my comment
    I was replying to your previous one!
    Actually Labour should rise above the fray rather than give Farage the attention he desires
    And the BBC should give him the amount of attention they give the Green Party, not run to him every time there's an issue he wants to talk about.
    Maybe if the greens had anything to say that people wanted to listen to they would?
    The problem the greens have is simple, yes they have some policies that people agree with. However as soon as they get attention there are a cohort in the green party that wants to leverage that to promote marxist ideology, thou shan't ideology (pushing idea's like we should tax meat more heavily to limit its consumption, people need to consume less goods hair shirt philosophy). This causes people who were interested in the moderate policies to turn away and go not voting for that.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758

    4 by elections this week
    Interesting Lab defence in Camarthen, see Reforms progress in Wales
    LD in Lewes should be a hold
    Localists in Castle Point - they run again but Con vs Reform totals in the craphole that is Canvey Island might be interesting
    Indy in Maldon - Con/Ref totals interesting again but LDs did well here in 2023

    Canvey Island is not a craphole. It has it's problems, yes, living there engenders pride in one's home town.
    I've lived close enough to be happy it very much is (to me)
    For Islanders with pride, good luck to you Canveyers!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451
    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,546

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    Now you're spoofing yourself.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 142

    Hah, who was it on here who preceptively suggested yesterday that the incident might be caused by "some coked-up wanker'?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn5xnlkegz0t?post=asset:9ced0aea-25aa-4f38-8f1c-d27e2031f2ab#post

    Stopped clock.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    So he's been protecting Russia ?
    Whilst Trump has fucked around in pursuit of his Nobel Peace Prize, lots of really bad things have already happened to the poor Ukrainians...
    "If I’m president, I will have that war settled in one day, 24 hours."
    Campaign commitment. Couldn't be clearer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,967

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    Is Starmer big mates with Putin then? B@stard!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,477
    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
    So warmed over Thatcherism taken further.

    The flogging off of UK assets overseas is what caused a significant slice of our current problems.
    And I expect Farage to be way less competent than Thatcher.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    I sometimes think part of the problem with refuting the current, surging incarnation of Reform is that they want to present as radically different, and part of the time Labour will attack them on that basis (the Tories, if they are doing attacking Reform, I have barely noticed), but other times they are going for the reassuring 'won't change too much' which pleases the grey vote so much, so you'd need to attack them for being potentially too radical, but also not as radical and different as they claim they are. Which can obviously come across as a bit incoherent.

    The refutation problem is various.

    1) Tory and Labour can't seriously attack anyone on competence
    2) Tory and Labour can't attack anyone on consistency
    3) The PM can't attack anyone on policy steadfastness
    4) No-one can attack Reform on the basic outline of migration policy or boats
    5) No-one can attack them on not having an underlying set of principles which underlie all their policies
    6) Tory and Labour can't attack them on supporting Brexit
    7) Reform keep admitting - this very day - that their plans currently don't work WRT to the public finances, but they will put it right in due course. This, while useless, and of course untrue, expresses a degree of honesty absent in the others and is no more useless and untrue than the others.
    I disagree with 1. Competence is relative. There is plenty of policy competence in government. There is also incompetence: but things could get a whole lot more incompetent than they are now. A whole lot more incompetent than they were even under Truss and Kwarteng. We have a living pilot study currently under way in the USA.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,421
    edited May 27
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    He admires Putin for his 'strength' and despises Ukraine. Vance may be more obvious about that than Trump but it fits a lot of the actions he's taken.
    But how is protecting a war mongering fascist state in the interests of the United States when they are involved in a brutal war of aggression against a democratic country whose integrity the US signed up to protect? Or to put it another way is this not treason?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    scampi25 said:

    Hah, who was it on here who preceptively suggested yesterday that the incident might be caused by "some coked-up wanker'?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn5xnlkegz0t?post=asset:9ced0aea-25aa-4f38-8f1c-d27e2031f2ab#post

    Stopped clock.....
    When they let an ambulance through how did they fail to stop a car following it through? Yet another police failure
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

    We couldn't afford the travel insurance for the full regalia.
    Carney didn't want anyone better dressed than him?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    He admires Putin for his 'strength' and despises Ukraine. Vance may be more obvious about that than Trump but it fits a lot of the actions he's taken.
    But how is protecting a war mongering fascist state in the interests of the United States when they are involved in a brutal war of aggression against a democratic country whose integrity the US signed up to protect? Or to put it another way is this not treason?
    Ah I can see your mistake I will reword it if I may so it makes more sense

    "But how is protecting a war mongering fascist state in the interests of Donald Trump when they are involved in a brutal war of aggression against a democratic country whose integrity that Donald Trump never signed up to protect?"
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
    Yep, that would transform the public finances. At the price of no healthcare for the less well off but what the hell.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,967
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
    Yep, that would transform the public finances. At the price of no healthcare for the less well off but what the hell.
    He'll have his account back at Coutts in next to no time!

    Fu****' popinjay.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Moderate economic growth won't cut it, virtually no one in the bottom 80% of the country cares if GDP rises because guess what they won't see any of it
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,497

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,421
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
    He claimed that he could stop the war on day 1. He tried to bully Ukraine into submission. He failed. He tried to bully Putin who has laughed in his face and increased the bombardment.

    He’s not only failed, he looks completely ineffectual and weak. And nonsense like this doesn’t make him look any better.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446
    edited May 27
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

    We couldn't afford the travel insurance for the full regalia.
    Carney didn't want anyone better dressed than him?
    Which tailor does Carney patronise ?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,069
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
    He claimed that he could stop the war on day 1. He tried to bully Ukraine into submission. He failed. He tried to bully Putin who has laughed in his face and increased the bombardment.

    He’s not only failed, he looks completely ineffectual and weak. And nonsense like this doesn’t make him look any better.
    He does not "look" completely ineffectual and weak.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,421

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
    He claimed that he could stop the war on day 1. He tried to bully Ukraine into submission. He failed. He tried to bully Putin who has laughed in his face and increased the bombardment.

    He’s not only failed, he looks completely ineffectual and weak. And nonsense like this doesn’t make him look any better.
    He does not "look" completely ineffectual and weak.
    Well he does but i take your point.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

    We couldn't afford the travel insurance for the full regalia.
    Carney didn't want anyone better dressed than him?
    Talking of which, did you see Trudeau's shoes?

    https://x.com/maarjohn_/status/1927385173777113344
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    Now you're spoofing yourself.
    Just now?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,431
    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
    The King and Canada will have worked out every detail with care. At the moment King and Canadian government have a huge stake in quiet boring continuation of that relationship and want to affirm it without drawing too much attention or appearing to be harking back to another and more imperial age. So neither full regalia nor jeans and trainers. Just right. KCIII and Carney are men of the moment and today will do no harm to either - nor to the interests of the UK.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    On my gdp comment about why most people don't care....let me bring you to the company analogy

    The company I work for increases profits by 5% most of the staff all get x% percent pay rises
    The company I work for increases profits by 10000% fancy a bet on most of the staff still only getting the same x%

    Most people would take that bet....its the same with gdp for the nation. We assume we aren't getting a share because history has shown us we won't
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,967

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Gotta agree with the man on this one - you cannot take the ridiculousness out of the institution.

    We couldn't afford the travel insurance for the full regalia.
    Carney didn't want anyone better dressed than him?
    Talking of which, did you see Trudeau's shoes?

    https://x.com/maarjohn_/status/1927385173777113344
    Adidas with a suit? Chav!
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,628
    ...
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Agree - visible delivery is the thing that might still rescue Lab.

    But they may still fall foul of the same thing Biden did - deliver decent economic results but have noone really believe them because there is so much pain stored up within the system as a result of the rapid inflation of the past couple of years. Plus a hostile press on top of that.

    (Yes I know Biden had other problems too, but still it was remarkable how little his economic successes got airtime).
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,788

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
    He claimed that he could stop the war on day 1. He tried to bully Ukraine into submission. He failed. He tried to bully Putin who has laughed in his face and increased the bombardment.

    He’s not only failed, he looks completely ineffectual and weak. And nonsense like this doesn’t make him look any better.
    He does not "look" completely ineffectual and weak.
    The advantage of a lifetime lying and more recent brain melting.

    Donald probably doesn't notice how pathetic he looks.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,431
    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
    Yep, that would transform the public finances. At the price of no healthcare for the less well off but what the hell.
    Reform engage in fantasy, but none so fantastical as this thinking that they will seek a mandate to sell off the NHS to the US healthcare. their manifesto will have enough fantasy as it is.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,069
    Pagan2 said:

    On my gdp comment about why most people don't care....let me bring you to the company analogy

    The company I work for increases profits by 5% most of the staff all get x% percent pay rises
    The company I work for increases profits by 10000% fancy a bet on most of the staff still only getting the same x%

    Most people would take that bet....its the same with gdp for the nation. We assume we aren't getting a share because history has shown us we won't

    Part of the problem is that the Government has embraced the concept of "GDP" as a goal in and of itself, rather than GDP per capita.

    GDP per capita goes down, but GDP goes up, and the Government boasts that GDP is going up.

    The only way we can 'grow the pie' and get our share going up, even without concerns about whether we get a share or not, is if it is going up per capita. That is a necessary but not sufficient first condition and too often it is not being met.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,477
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Yes, Starmer has a pitch for the next GE (if he genuinely can show incremental signs of improvement), but that alone isn’t going to win him a second term. It needs to be coupled with what the improvements will allow him to do.

    In short, he’s going to have to do the vision thing sooner or later. Just saying things are gradually getting better isn’t going to win an argument against Farage who will just say he can make it all happen faster. What is the end goal? What is 2024-2034 (or longer) Labour Britain? This is the question that Labour are not convincingly answering at the moment. They will need to.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
    The King and Canada will have worked out every detail with care. At the moment King and Canadian government have a huge stake in quiet boring continuation of that relationship and want to affirm it without drawing too much attention or appearing to be harking back to another and more imperial age. So neither full regalia nor jeans and trainers. Just right. KCIII and Carney are men of the moment and today will do no harm to either - nor to the interests of the UK.
    I mean, jeans, trainers and a baseball cap would certainly have been different.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451
    Pagan2 said:

    On my gdp comment about why most people don't care....let me bring you to the company analogy

    The company I work for increases profits by 5% most of the staff all get x% percent pay rises
    The company I work for increases profits by 10000% fancy a bet on most of the staff still only getting the same x%

    Most people would take that bet....its the same with gdp for the nation. We assume we aren't getting a share because history has shown us we won't

    Why aren't you a lefty given these views?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,930

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
    The King and Canada will have worked out every detail with care. At the moment King and Canadian government have a huge stake in quiet boring continuation of that relationship and want to affirm it without drawing too much attention or appearing to be harking back to another and more imperial age. So neither full regalia nor jeans and trainers. Just right. KCIII and Carney are men of the moment and today will do no harm to either - nor to the interests of the UK.
    I mean, jeans, trainers and a baseball cap would certainly have been different.
    Could have an interesting half-orb baseball cap....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796
    edited May 27

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
    So what's your reason for the US keeping a lid on Ukraine stopping the murder of its civilians ?

    Reporter: You said Russia is pounding Ukraine. Why not provide Ukraine with air defenses?

    Trump: Because I have to know that they want to settle. I don’t know that they want to settle. If they don’t want to settle, we’re out of there. (March 2025)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758
    edited May 27
    Sounds Like Rupert Lowe had lunch with Jenrick on Thursday (politics home is the source) and is 'open' to a future move to the Conservative Party.
    If Jenrick ousts Kemi his first big move therefore will be revealing Lowe as a new MP

    A Lowe/Habib party looks less likely

    Whips have previously said 'it's not a no from us'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,967

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Yes, Starmer has a pitch for the next GE (if he genuinely can show incremental signs of improvement), but that alone isn’t going to win him a second term. It needs to be coupled with what the improvements will allow him to do.

    In short, he’s going to have to do the vision thing sooner or later. Just saying things are gradually getting better isn’t going to win an argument against Farage who will just say he can make it all happen faster. What is the end goal? What is 2024-2034 (or longer) Labour Britain? This is the question that Labour are not convincingly answering at the moment. They will need to.
    Nigel can offer us the moon on a stick with no on cost. That is a tempting prospectus.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,930
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    I do not want to 'touch a nerve' but if those opposing Farage do not address why he is the one politician making the agenda then he will be PM just as we had Brexit and Trump

    For clarification the last thing I want to see is PM Farage, and I still maintain it is unlikely but it is not impossible
    I don’t believe you’d have felt the same about Conservatives needing to channel Corbynism after 2017, when he did significantly better than Farage is now doing. Or indeed that Boris needed to address why the Lib Dems were doing well in local elections over Brexit.

    No, they went in hard, and ultimately it paid off handsomely.
    Farage's speech today was a challenge to all the parties and the media are giving him lots of exposure

    Maybe his frankness has something to do with it

    When asked how he will pay for the accommodation for asylum seekers his answer was as you would expect

    'There won't be any. Australia successfully stopped the problem and so will we'
    I tuned out once he said the money would partly be coming from Quango savings.
    Fucking idiot.
    Apparently it is coming from abandoning net zero
    Offloading the NHS to US healthcare providers for $$$$$$$$$$$$ should generate enormous amounts of cash.

    He can cut loads of taxes if he sells the NHS and social care provision.
    Yep, that would transform the public finances. At the price of no healthcare for the less well off but what the hell.
    Reform engage in fantasy, but none so fantastical as this thinking that they will seek a mandate to sell off the NHS to the US healthcare. their manifesto will have enough fantasy as it is.
    Not being in the Reform Manifesto doesn't mean they won't flog it.

    Their base are the floggers...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451
    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It implies he has (and knows he has) great leverage to force a climbdown from Putin. So what are we to think if he continues not to use it as the war rages on?

    He's getting in a bit of a pickle.
    He claimed that he could stop the war on day 1. He tried to bully Ukraine into submission. He failed. He tried to bully Putin who has laughed in his face and increased the bombardment.

    He’s not only failed, he looks completely ineffectual and weak. And nonsense like this doesn’t make him look any better.
    He talks loud and carries a small stick.

    That's 'st'ick.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,636
    Raising the personal allowance to £20k would apparently "cost" in terms of missed tax receipts somewhere between £50 billion and £80 billion or 2-3 Chagos if you prefer in modern money.

    Proponents will presumably take the Lafferite line all the extra money we will suddenly get via this tax "cut" will lead to consumption and economic growth which will, in terms of bringing in VAT and corporation tax receipts, somewhat offset the original "cost".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,446
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
    So what's your reason for the US keeping a lid on Ukraine stopping the murder of its civilians ?

    Reporter: You said Russia is pounding Ukraine. Why not provide Ukraine with air defenses?

    Trump: Because I have to know that they want to settle. I don’t know that they want to settle. If they don’t want to settle, we’re out of there. (March 2025)
    "Why Biden is opposed to a ‘no-fly zone’ over Ukraine"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-no-fly-zone-ukraine-nato-b2026302.html

    The United States has enforced three no-fly zones in the brief history of the military tactic; in Libya, Iraq and Bosnia.

    Ukraine won’t be the fourth if Joe Biden stands his ground. The president has so far refused direct pleas from Volodymyr Zelensky, and mounting political pressure from retired generals and soon to retire Congressmen, to "control the skies".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,796

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Yes, Starmer has a pitch for the next GE (if he genuinely can show incremental signs of improvement), but that alone isn’t going to win him a second term. It needs to be coupled with what the improvements will allow him to do.

    In short, he’s going to have to do the vision thing sooner or later. Just saying things are gradually getting better isn’t going to win an argument against Farage who will just say he can make it all happen faster. What is the end goal? What is 2024-2034 (or longer) Labour Britain? This is the question that Labour are not convincingly answering at the moment. They will need to.
    Nigel can offer us the moon on a stick with no on cost. That is a tempting prospectus.
    Not tempted.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
    The King and Canada will have worked out every detail with care. At the moment King and Canadian government have a huge stake in quiet boring continuation of that relationship and want to affirm it without drawing too much attention or appearing to be harking back to another and more imperial age. So neither full regalia nor jeans and trainers. Just right. KCIII and Carney are men of the moment and today will do no harm to either - nor to the interests of the UK.
    I mean, jeans, trainers and a baseball cap would certainly have been different.
    Could have an interesting half-orb baseball cap....
    Respec’, my Lords, Ladies, and peeps of da Realm.

    Today I is sittin’ on dis big ol’ golden chair to drop some realness 'bout what me gov’ment is gonna be chattin' 'bout dis year. Big tings is comin', and trust me, it ain’t just more corgis and cucumber sandwiches, ya get me?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,091
    https://www.thetimes.com/article/5b19faf3-dc1b-429a-a931-ce94d37a5d2e?shareToken=677a285395ee114e404b4895effdaafb

    We're heading for a debt crisis and a bailout. The government must reverse course on spending and cut £100bn from the current budget. Rachel Reeves is going to not only bankrupt the nation, she's going hand the country over to Nige.

    The Tories need to prepare for this and get to a place where they're the only mainstream party that stands for fiscal responsibility. Get rid of Kemi and the party elders need to ask Jeremy Hunt to be leader and preach fiscal restraint, outline what the Tories would do to cut spending and stop living beyond our means. It's going to be very unpopular for two years but in the run up to the election where borrowing is out of control, bond yields in junk territory and rumours of an IMF bailout they immediately become the responsible choice.

    They need to do this now and claim back the mantle of being the responsible party that stands for living within our means and cutting the size of the state.

    There's a lot of work to do but Labour and Reform will take this country to it's first ever external default event and the road to Argentina.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,758
    edited May 27

    Sounds Like Rupert Lowe had lunch with Jenrick on Thursday (politics home is the source) and is 'open' to a future move to the Conservative Party.
    If Jenrick ousts Kemi his first big move therefore will be revealing Lowe as a new MP

    A Lowe/Habib party looks less likely

    Whips have previously said 'it's not a no from us'

    Would make Con Gain Great Yarmouth a potential bet to look at next time if so, Lowe has a pretty big presence and donates his salary every month to local causes, so plenty will have had exposure to/benefit from him
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,786
    slade said:

    Barnesian said:

    Dopermean said:

    Barnesian said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:
    "She bought her two-bedroom leasehold flat in West Hampstead, in a converted synagogue, in 2004 for £350,000. By 2016, the flat had been given a valuation of £800,000, so Davidson assumed that she was well on her way to making a healthy profit.

    But after putting her property on the market for £725,000 last year – the amount an estate agent told her it was worth – she was unable to secure a sale."

    Diddums.
    That 2016 "valuation" looks highball to me. But it's true that London property prices are well off their peak. A good thing on balance, I'd say, although it will cause genuine problems for some people.
    Well tough for those who see a property as an asset class and not a place to live.

    The woman in this article is still well ahead on what she paid in 2004. Her expectation is above what the property is worth.
    To be fair with the outrageous charges on leasehold flats and cladding issues, I would expect she has quite a lot further to drop, even if it is saleable
    Well quite. It doesn’t mention how long the lease is either.

    Is 4 grand a year service charge a lot these days for London.

    When I had a flat in Brum I was paying around £1,000 a year but I left in 2000.
    I pay £4K+ a year on my flat. I think it's worth it.
    It depends how much maintenance work is required on the communal parts. There'll a lot of flat owners disappointed when it changes from leasehold to share of freehold (essentially) and they get the same bill for the same maintenance work.
    Appointing a good managing agent is the key.
    My £4K is £2K for maintenance (cleaning, gardening, porter, insurance, minor repairs, utilities in common areas etc.)
    The other £2K is into a fund for the regular seven year outdoor repairs and maintenance with scaffolding, plus internal decorations of the common areas.
    The freehold is jointly owned through a company of which I am a director. So I help, with the rest of the board, to determine the service charge. It is under control.
    That is very like my situation. In just over 20 years we have had 4 managing agents - the current one is by far the best. I had 2 spells as chair of the company which holds the freehold and learned a lot.
    £200,000 in 2004 inflation adjusted is £360,000. If she puts it on the market for £360,000 it will sell easily, but no, too many people see their house as a profit making exercise, not a home. Change that, and more young people will be able to afford a home of their own.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,451
    edited May 27
    maxh said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Agree - visible delivery is the thing that might still rescue Lab.

    But they may still fall foul of the same thing Biden did - deliver decent economic results but have noone really believe them because there is so much pain stored up within the system as a result of the rapid inflation of the past couple of years. Plus a hostile press on top of that.

    (Yes I know Biden had other problems too, but still it was remarkable how little his economic successes got airtime).
    Some of the places in America that most benefited financially from Biden's policies voted above national trend for Trump. 🤷‍♂️
  • isamisam Posts: 41,902
    edited May 27
    ‘Why did Mandy stay at Epstein’s place while Jeff was in jail?’ ask Sky News

    ‘Erm…’ says Mandy

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1927398201784504428?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,477
    stodge said:

    Raising the personal allowance to £20k would apparently "cost" in terms of missed tax receipts somewhere between £50 billion and £80 billion or 2-3 Chagos if you prefer in modern money.

    Proponents will presumably take the Lafferite line all the extra money we will suddenly get via this tax "cut" will lead to consumption and economic growth which will, in terms of bringing in VAT and corporation tax receipts, somewhat offset the original "cost".

    Given his two child benefit stance and his current tactics at outflanking Labour, is there a not-too-inconceivable chance that Farage goes into the next election promising to raise additional rate tax?

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,069
    stodge said:

    Raising the personal allowance to £20k would apparently "cost" in terms of missed tax receipts somewhere between £50 billion and £80 billion or 2-3 Chagos if you prefer in modern money.

    Proponents will presumably take the Lafferite line all the extra money we will suddenly get via this tax "cut" will lead to consumption and economic growth which will, in terms of bringing in VAT and corporation tax receipts, somewhat offset the original "cost".

    Raising the personal allowance to £20k by the end of the next Parliament probably won't cost very much actually in real terms.

    That's barely over a 5% compound annual growth in the allowance.

    With a bit of inflation and growth, £20k in 2034 is not that much more than £12.5k in 2025.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
    So what's your reason for the US keeping a lid on Ukraine stopping the murder of its civilians ?

    Reporter: You said Russia is pounding Ukraine. Why not provide Ukraine with air defenses?

    Trump: Because I have to know that they want to settle. I don’t know that they want to settle. If they don’t want to settle, we’re out of there. (March 2025)
    "Why Biden is opposed to a ‘no-fly zone’ over Ukraine"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-no-fly-zone-ukraine-nato-b2026302.html

    The United States has enforced three no-fly zones in the brief history of the military tactic; in Libya, Iraq and Bosnia.

    Ukraine won’t be the fourth if Joe Biden stands his ground. The president has so far refused direct pleas from Volodymyr Zelensky, and mounting political pressure from retired generals and soon to retire Congressmen, to "control the skies".
    Yes, Biden and many others were worried about escalations and committing certain levels of resources, and some people agreed with that and others criticised him for it. It's not the same as the way Trump has behaved before and after his re-election, and the attempt to argue that is not convincing. And because it's not credible it doesn't work as parody either.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,421
    maxh said:

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Labour attacks on Farage are getting more shrill. They're clearly shittng themselves

    Anything specific?
    A particularly grumpy Mike Tapp said
    'Nigel Farage is just another rich bloke who is masquerading as a working class hero, and using the flag to act as a patriot when we all know he is not.'
    An even grumpier Torsten Bell the pensions plonker was mouthing off earlier too.

    It's the anger not the words 'How DARE you support him, he's a right shit' styley
    The left simply do not learn

    Same attitude that gave us Brexit
    That attitude - the one you’re deploying there, really gets my goat.

    Politicians of the right spend their every waking hour deriding anyone from the left, calling them traitors or enemies of the people (often with the help of tame newspapers), deluded, class warriors with a chip on their shoulder, out of touch etc etc etc. and they have absolutely zero time for liberal ideology.

    But if a politician of the left doesn’t pay homage and arse kiss the latest populist blowhard (actually even when they do, as Starmer is trying now), they have an “attitude” and haven’t learned. Basically, anyone who doesn’t just fully agree with the Farage world view is accused of bad attitude.

    That's not how politics works. It’s not the duty of non-right wingers to indulge the far right. If Labour members are finally showing a modicum of fightback rather than appeasement then it’s not before time.

    Rather than triangulating I think the best way to fight someone like Farage is to set out your opposing viewpoint and have a genuine debate. Set out what you believe.

    Starmers problem is that he doesn’t really believe in much more than what is politically expedient at any one time. It made him a relatively successful opposition politician, but the rules of the game have now changed.
    There's some truth in that.
    But what if he were to manage to deliver some modest economic growth, along with a significant fall in immigration ?

    He's not going to beat Farage in the realm of airy promises, so he'd better deliver.
    Agree - visible delivery is the thing that might still rescue Lab.

    But they may still fall foul of the same thing Biden did - deliver decent economic results but have noone really believe them because there is so much pain stored up within the system as a result of the rapid inflation of the past couple of years. Plus a hostile press on top of that.

    (Yes I know Biden had other problems too, but still it was remarkable how little his economic successes got airtime).
    The blue sky thread @viewcode linked to this morning was good on that. Democrats just assume good news wins them votes. It doesn’t, not if the mass media either ignore or critique it. They need to build a narrative that explains why this is good for everyone. Sunak’s government had very similar problems.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,664
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    On my gdp comment about why most people don't care....let me bring you to the company analogy

    The company I work for increases profits by 5% most of the staff all get x% percent pay rises
    The company I work for increases profits by 10000% fancy a bet on most of the staff still only getting the same x%

    Most people would take that bet....its the same with gdp for the nation. We assume we aren't getting a share because history has shown us we won't

    Why aren't you a lefty given these views?
    I am not a lefty purely because I am old enough to look around at all the left wing governments which resulted mostly in destitution, poverty and misery. Socialism is like curing a head cold with decapitation. People who think socialism is a good idea are pig ignorant arseholes that ignore the absolute failure of their ideology everytime it has been tried.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,069

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
    So what's your reason for the US keeping a lid on Ukraine stopping the murder of its civilians ?

    Reporter: You said Russia is pounding Ukraine. Why not provide Ukraine with air defenses?

    Trump: Because I have to know that they want to settle. I don’t know that they want to settle. If they don’t want to settle, we’re out of there. (March 2025)
    "Why Biden is opposed to a ‘no-fly zone’ over Ukraine"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-no-fly-zone-ukraine-nato-b2026302.html

    The United States has enforced three no-fly zones in the brief history of the military tactic; in Libya, Iraq and Bosnia.

    Ukraine won’t be the fourth if Joe Biden stands his ground. The president has so far refused direct pleas from Volodymyr Zelensky, and mounting political pressure from retired generals and soon to retire Congressmen, to "control the skies".
    Your whatabouterism is almost as sad and pathetic as your idol Donald is.

    Can you answer a straight question with a straight answer: Do you genuinely not believe that there is a difference between supplying aid and intelligence, albeit with conditions, and cutting off the flow of aid and intelligence?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,930

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking forward to catching the speech later but why was King Charles wearing a suit?

    Bit wet. If you're a monarch, do it properly.

    That's the point.

    Canada's attitude to the monarchy for a long time has seemed to be even more low key than in Australia, because they just barely talked about it I guess, perhaps they are just getting back into the habit and didn't have any good robes to hand.
    The King and Canada will have worked out every detail with care. At the moment King and Canadian government have a huge stake in quiet boring continuation of that relationship and want to affirm it without drawing too much attention or appearing to be harking back to another and more imperial age. So neither full regalia nor jeans and trainers. Just right. KCIII and Carney are men of the moment and today will do no harm to either - nor to the interests of the UK.
    I mean, jeans, trainers and a baseball cap would certainly have been different.
    Could have an interesting half-orb baseball cap....
    Respec’, my Lords, Ladies, and peeps of da Realm.

    Today I is sittin’ on dis big ol’ golden chair to drop some realness 'bout what me gov’ment is gonna be chattin' 'bout dis year. Big tings is comin', and trust me, it ain’t just more corgis and cucumber sandwiches, ya get me?
    Respec, innit?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291

    "If you see something that doien't look right, tell a member of staff."

    Just told the ticket collector that the guy two seats in front has the most diabolical mullet....

    I tried that once, for genuine reasons, and they asked me 20 questions.

    By the time I'd answered them all the bloke was long gone.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,291
    stodge said:

    Raising the personal allowance to £20k would apparently "cost" in terms of missed tax receipts somewhere between £50 billion and £80 billion or 2-3 Chagos if you prefer in modern money.

    Proponents will presumably take the Lafferite line all the extra money we will suddenly get via this tax "cut" will lead to consumption and economic growth which will, in terms of bringing in VAT and corporation tax receipts, somewhat offset the original "cost".

    If I've got Starmernomics right this should be fine because the Seychelles will pay us that to reestablish colonial rule over them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,863

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1927390982061842822

    What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Russia, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire!

    That strikes me as a confession. He’s been protecting Russia. Why?
    It's a threat, not a confession.

    It's like Putin saying, "What Keir Starmer doesn't realize is that if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would have already happened to Britain, and I mean REALLY BAD. He's playing with fire."
    It’s a confession.
    As US president he will have options on the table to escalate any number of conflicts. It's not 'protecting' an adversary to turn down the most agressive course of action.
    Putinist proxy war thinking, that. Implying the only nation able to harm Russia is the USA.

    Russia acts with no restraint in Ukraine. Ukraine has the restraining hand of America placed on it. That’s Trump’s confession. He is holding back Ukraine from symmetrical warfare.
    That's been publicly stated by the US from the beginning with various excuses given, from the need to maintain unity to the need to avoid escalation.

    One of the reasons the US has tried to control the response is precisely so they can keep a lid on it and avoid it becoming a wider war.
    So what's your reason for the US keeping a lid on Ukraine stopping the murder of its civilians ?

    Reporter: You said Russia is pounding Ukraine. Why not provide Ukraine with air defenses?

    Trump: Because I have to know that they want to settle. I don’t know that they want to settle. If they don’t want to settle, we’re out of there. (March 2025)
    "Why Biden is opposed to a ‘no-fly zone’ over Ukraine"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-no-fly-zone-ukraine-nato-b2026302.html

    The United States has enforced three no-fly zones in the brief history of the military tactic; in Libya, Iraq and Bosnia.

    Ukraine won’t be the fourth if Joe Biden stands his ground. The president has so far refused direct pleas from Volodymyr Zelensky, and mounting political pressure from retired generals and soon to retire Congressmen, to "control the skies".
    Your whatabouterism is almost as sad and pathetic as your idol Donald is.

    Can you answer a straight question with a straight answer: Do you genuinely not believe that there is a difference between supplying aid and intelligence, albeit with conditions, and cutting off the flow of aid and intelligence?
    Precisely. I get trolling can be a fun activity, but even if someone likes Trump they wouldn't argue the two have been acting the same way.
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