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The Tories are a rounding error from being fourth and behind the Lib Dems with YouGov

SystemSystem Posts: 12,459
edited May 7 in General
The Tories are a rounding error from being fourth and behind the Lib Dems with YouGovn– politicalbetting.com

Reform UK record their highest ever poll rating in YouGov's latest Westminster voting intention, while the Tories and Labour are at their lowest since 2019Ref: 29% (+3 from 27-28 Apr)Lab: 22% (-1)Con: 17% (-3)Lib Dem: 16% (+1)Green: 10% (+1)SNP: 3% (=)yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,773
    First, unlike Tories, Labour, Lib Dems anytime soon
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,496
    Anne Applebaum and the Most Corrupt Presidency in American History | The David Frum Show

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpU26qBcBuw&t=480s
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,496
    When Con hit 20%, I know I said Kemi should aim for 15% as a stretch goal, but I really didn't think she'd make so much progress... :(
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,376
    @SamCoatesSky
    Ex MP Jill Mortimer has just posted this in the 2019-2024 Conservative MPs WhatsApp chat about Kemi in relation to the announcement of the Deportation Bill:

    “She’s spent 6 months thinking of something to say then comes up with this after we’ve had a pasting - she is so out of her depth”
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,181
    Looking at the detail of the unfiltered results, if you add DK, Would not vote and refused, they come top at 26%, while Reform are second at 22%.

    https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/VotingIntention_MRP_250506_w.pdf
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722
    What's fascinating about these poll results is that LLG and CR are (as seems always to be the case) very similar.

    When the two parties were at similar polling levels, that worked to the advantage of LLG, because tactical voting is so much more common on the centre-left. With the Reform potentially pushing into the 30s, that starts to change.

    What's also fascinating is that these poll moves are clearly much worse for Labour than for the LibDems. Simply: Conservatives moving to Reform generally benefits the LibDems (in how many LibDem seats are Reform the challenger?), but is clearly a major issue for Labour - especially as Reform is so much better at appealing to (historic) Labour supporters.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434
    rcs1000 said:

    What's fascinating about these poll results is that LLG and CR are (as seems always to be the case) very similar.

    When the two parties were at similar polling levels, that worked to the advantage of LLG, because tactical voting is so much more common on the centre-left. With the Reform potentially pushing into the 30s, that starts to change.

    What's also fascinating is that these poll moves are clearly much worse for Labour than for the LibDems. Simply: Conservatives moving to Reform generally benefits the LibDems (in how many LibDem seats are Reform the challenger?), but is clearly a major issue for Labour - especially as Reform is so much better at appealing to (historic) Labour supporters.

    This poll is shocking but not surprising

    Look at the response to the Indian NIC furore. Badenoch can’t even mention it at PMQs because Starmer will - correctly - note that the Tories planned all this and of course the Tories gave us the Boriswave, who are they to talk about migration

    The Tories are completely crippled on the issue of the day. Meanwhile Farage is on every tv show with a completely free line of fire at Labour and he can say “This is exactly what I predicted, Two Tier Kier and his Two Tier Taxes, British jobs for Indian workers….”

    And so on. The dynamic is very bad for Labour and appalling for the Tories. I don’t know what will shift it
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167
    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,424
    I wonder if we'll hear the same comments about Find Out Now going forward.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,496

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    Do you have a link please?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,024
    edited May 7
    I laid Badexit25 at 2.7 for a decent amount and it remains a standout sell at these prices. In fact I struggle to see a better political bet right now. She's probably toast but not this year. It should be triple the price.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,857
    RobD said:

    I wonder if we'll hear the same comments about Find Out Now going forward.

    It’s interesting that Find Out Now are caveating their own polls.

    This poll was initiated solely by Find Out Now and not funded by any third party
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,593
    slade said:

    After the monster bunch last week we have just 2 local by-elections tomorrow. There is a Lab defence in Calderdale and a LD defence in Eastleigh. Anything could happen these days but Eastleigh should be a LD hold but Calderdale is a free for all.

    I'll stick my neck out for Skircoat ward on Calderdale, which is a really rather nice towny bit on the whole, as being a Labour hold.

    Also follows my developing theory that council by-elections are a little less protesty than the main May round (because they don't reverberate noticeably on government), which is, of course, the opposite way round to parliamentary elections.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,810
    rcs1000 said:

    What's fascinating about these poll results is that LLG and CR are (as seems always to be the case) very similar.

    When the two parties were at similar polling levels, that worked to the advantage of LLG, because tactical voting is so much more common on the centre-left. With the Reform potentially pushing into the 30s, that starts to change.

    What's also fascinating is that these poll moves are clearly much worse for Labour than for the LibDems. Simply: Conservatives moving to Reform generally benefits the LibDems (in how many LibDem seats are Reform the challenger?), but is clearly a major issue for Labour - especially as Reform is so much better at appealing to (historic) Labour supporters.

    The point about LLG and CR being very similar appears to suggest movement within those blocks, rather than between them. I need to analyse this more as it seems to go against my perception of Reforms recent gains coming from historic Labour voters (see Doncaster for recent real-life examples), and the Lib Dems coming from historic Tories (see Shropshire / Oxfordshire for recent examples) - it would seem odd for those movements to offset equally to give the polling stability in LLG / CR blocks that we've seen - but if not then there is some work to be done investigating what's really going on with real-life voting.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,797
    edited May 7
    Cons are out of power.

    Labour are doing stuff many people hate.

    The Conservatives can't stop Labour doing stuff many people hate - they don't have the seats.

    The logical way to stop Labour doing stuff many people hate is to have a bloc of votes that demonstrate they will be out on their ear at the next election - unless they stop doing stuff many people hate. So far, no evidence that Labour is stopping doing the stuff people hate. So the Reform bloc gets bigger - until Labour actually stop doing stuff many people hate.

    The rise of Reform is not so much an anti-Tory vote, as a pro-Reform vote to kick Labour as the governing party.

    Whether that survives until 2028/9 is kinda up to Labour.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118
    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1920104772054495733

    The Tories faffed about for eight years but never delivered a trade deal with India — my Labour government got it done in 10 months.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,926

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1920104772054495733

    The Tories faffed about for eight years but never delivered a trade deal with India — my Labour government got it done in 10 months.

    Porkies from Two Teir. We couldn't even legally start the negotiations until out of the EU.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,024
    Crossover klaxon:

    GE29* Most Seats, REF 2.62, LAB 2.64

    * 3rd May
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533
    Lennon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What's fascinating about these poll results is that LLG and CR are (as seems always to be the case) very similar.

    When the two parties were at similar polling levels, that worked to the advantage of LLG, because tactical voting is so much more common on the centre-left. With the Reform potentially pushing into the 30s, that starts to change.

    What's also fascinating is that these poll moves are clearly much worse for Labour than for the LibDems. Simply: Conservatives moving to Reform generally benefits the LibDems (in how many LibDem seats are Reform the challenger?), but is clearly a major issue for Labour - especially as Reform is so much better at appealing to (historic) Labour supporters.

    The point about LLG and CR being very similar appears to suggest movement within those blocks, rather than between them. I need to analyse this more as it seems to go against my perception of Reforms recent gains coming from historic Labour voters (see Doncaster for recent real-life examples), and the Lib Dems coming from historic Tories (see Shropshire / Oxfordshire for recent examples) - it would seem odd for those movements to offset equally to give the polling stability in LLG / CR blocks that we've seen - but if not then there is some work to be done investigating what's really going on with real-life voting.
    The 3rd block is important and more or less equal in size to the LLG and CR blocks. I mean of course the DK and WNV block.

    Falling motivation to vote is as big a problem for Labour as leakage to LDs and Greens. A fair bit of the Reform vote comes from this block too.

    GOTV is critical. Reform do seem to be able to do it with little in the way of local campaigning , such as the invisible man elected in North Lake on the IoW last week.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167
    viewcode said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    Do you have a link please?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8piwfzbM5WA&t=1150s
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434
    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?
  • Cons are out of power.

    Labour are doing stuff many people hate.

    The Conservatives can't stop Labour doing stuff many people hate - they don't have the seats.

    The logical way to stop Labour doing stuff many people hate is to have a bloc of votes that demonstrate they will be out on their ear at the next election - unless they stop doing stuff many people hate. So far, no evidence that Labour is stopping doing the stuff people hate. So the Reform bloc gets bigger - until Labour actually stop doing stuff many people hate.

    The rise of Reform is not so much an anti-Tory vote, as a pro-Reform vote to kick Labour as the governing party.

    Whether that survives until 2028/9 is kinda up to Labour.

    It is also those of us on the Right deciding who the enemy is. This is a repeat of what happened on the Right in France ten years ago and still ongoing.

    Farage is making Harold Wilson's mistake. When he comes on telly I just go ugh! and I doubt I am alone. And yet I support what he claims are his ends even if I think his means are hare-brained.

    One of the first commentators I ever read / heard maybe 50 years ago said something very challenging and interesting re the resignation of Harold Wilson and Farage would do well to heed his words.

    He said Wilson barely won the 64 election by barely being on TV. He won the landslide in 66 by being on the TV all the time. He lost the 70 election by being on the TV all the time and he just and so won Feb 74 by keeping off the TV as much as he could, and likewise Oct 74.

    We are seeing too much of Farage and not enough of his "colleagues".
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,041

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,188
    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    Many many times - never liked it, always seemed grey when I was there. The city is really quite ok in that old European centre way. The Grund is pretty in that “old architecture” way with ok bars. I’m prob being harsh on it but never enjoyed going there.

    Had some very nice piglet chops there, soft as butter.

    True story, was in a Chinese with a Colleague from Helsinki and the manageress came over and said in faltering English “you finnish?” and my chap, with a look of great surprise said “yes I am, how did you know”. How we laughed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722
    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I have.

    It's like one of the rather less interesting parts of Switzerland. It's expensive, and boring, and pleasant, and safe, and clean.

    I wouldn't want to spend more than 48 hours there. On the other hand, if the sun is shining, you will - I'm sure - have a perfectly pleasant time.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
    So your first reaction is to.... talk about what is going on in America. How big of you.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118

    Cons are out of power.

    Labour are doing stuff many people hate.

    The Conservatives can't stop Labour doing stuff many people hate - they don't have the seats.

    The logical way to stop Labour doing stuff many people hate is to have a bloc of votes that demonstrate they will be out on their ear at the next election - unless they stop doing stuff many people hate. So far, no evidence that Labour is stopping doing the stuff people hate. So the Reform bloc gets bigger - until Labour actually stop doing stuff many people hate.

    The rise of Reform is not so much an anti-Tory vote, as a pro-Reform vote to kick Labour as the governing party.

    Whether that survives until 2028/9 is kinda up to Labour.

    It is also those of us on the Right deciding who the enemy is. This is a repeat of what happened on the Right in France ten years ago and still ongoing.

    Farage is making Harold Wilson's mistake. When he comes on telly I just go ugh! and I doubt I am alone. And yet I support what he claims are his ends even if I think his means are hare-brained.

    One of the first commentators I ever read / heard maybe 50 years ago said something very challenging and interesting re the resignation of Harold Wilson and Farage would do well to heed his words.

    He said Wilson barely won the 64 election by barely being on TV. He won the landslide in 66 by being on the TV all the time. He lost the 70 election by being on the TV all the time and he just and so won Feb 74 by keeping off the TV as much as he could, and likewise Oct 74.

    We are seeing too much of Farage and not enough of his "colleagues".
    On the other hand, TV is nowhere near as central to the media landscape as it was in the 1960s and 1970s. Farage could be constantly on TV and many people would barely know it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434

    Cons are out of power.

    Labour are doing stuff many people hate.

    The Conservatives can't stop Labour doing stuff many people hate - they don't have the seats.

    The logical way to stop Labour doing stuff many people hate is to have a bloc of votes that demonstrate they will be out on their ear at the next election - unless they stop doing stuff many people hate. So far, no evidence that Labour is stopping doing the stuff people hate. So the Reform bloc gets bigger - until Labour actually stop doing stuff many people hate.

    The rise of Reform is not so much an anti-Tory vote, as a pro-Reform vote to kick Labour as the governing party.

    Whether that survives until 2028/9 is kinda up to Labour.

    It is also those of us on the Right deciding who the enemy is. This is a repeat of what happened on the Right in France ten years ago and still ongoing.

    Farage is making Harold Wilson's mistake. When he comes on telly I just go ugh! and I doubt I am alone. And yet I support what he claims are his ends even if I think his means are hare-brained.

    One of the first commentators I ever read / heard maybe 50 years ago said something very challenging and interesting re the resignation of Harold Wilson and Farage would do well to heed his words.

    He said Wilson barely won the 64 election by barely being on TV. He won the landslide in 66 by being on the TV all the time. He lost the 70 election by being on the TV all the time and he just and so won Feb 74 by keeping off the TV as much as he could, and likewise Oct 74.

    We are seeing too much of Farage and not enough of his "colleagues".
    The polls say you are wrong. The recent leader poll had him the most liked - or rather, least disliked - of the four major leaders. Ahead of Davey and FAR ahead of Badenoch and Starmer, who is so disliked even his cat won't sit with him
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,341
    carnforth said:

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1920104772054495733

    The Tories faffed about for eight years but never delivered a trade deal with India — my Labour government got it done in 10 months.

    Porkies from Two Teir. We couldn't even legally start the negotiations until out of the EU.
    We could start the negotiations but couldn’t activate any deal until we left after the transition period . Theoretically they could have started negotiations the day after the EU ref result . So it’s not really a lie and given what spews out of Farages mouth the standards have been lowered .

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,945
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I have.

    It's like one of the rather less interesting parts of Switzerland. It's expensive, and boring, and pleasant, and safe, and clean.

    I wouldn't want to spend more than 48 hours there. On the other hand, if the sun is shining, you will - I'm sure - have a perfectly pleasant time.
    You're thinking of Lichtenstein, though I imagine the vibes are very similar to Luxembourg.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,025
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    Many many times - never liked it, always seemed grey when I was there. The city is really quite ok in that old European centre way. The Grund is pretty in that “old architecture” way with ok bars. I’m prob being harsh on it but never enjoyed going there.

    Had some very nice piglet chops there, soft as butter.

    True story, was in a Chinese with a Colleague from Helsinki and the manageress came over and said in faltering English “you finnish?” and my chap, with a look of great surprise said “yes I am, how did you know”. How we laughed.
    A friend of mine recently went on a European road trip with his wife and two sons. He stayed at a Eurocamp in Luxembourg for three days. He remains uncharacteristically furious at the place for how little it entertained them all.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,376
    @GeorgeWParker

    New - Indian officials say Badenoch talking "rubbish" over "two tier tax" attack on UK/India FTA. Say she agreed principle of exempting Indian workers from NICs when she was trade sec. Team Badenoch: "The Indians put it on the table and Kemi said No."

    https://x.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1920127480943223074
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,751
    Interesting fact about Luxembourg: public transport is free for everyone, including tourists.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
    Do you really think it's comparable?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I have.

    It's like one of the rather less interesting parts of Switzerland. It's expensive, and boring, and pleasant, and safe, and clean.

    I wouldn't want to spend more than 48 hours there. On the other hand, if the sun is shining, you will - I'm sure - have a perfectly pleasant time.
    You're thinking of Lichtenstein, though I imagine the vibes are very similar to Luxembourg.
    No, I'm thinking of Luxembourg. I was IPOing a company based in Saarbrucken, and my MD didn't want to stay in Saarbrucken, and so we stayed in Luxembourg and commuted. Which was stupid, but what Goldman MD asks for... Goldman MD gets.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,926
    edited May 7
    nico67 said:

    carnforth said:

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1920104772054495733

    The Tories faffed about for eight years but never delivered a trade deal with India — my Labour government got it done in 10 months.

    Porkies from Two Teir. We couldn't even legally start the negotiations until out of the EU.
    We could start the negotiations but couldn’t activate any deal until we left after the transition period . Theoretically they could have started negotiations the day after the EU ref result . So it’s not really a lie and given what spews out of Farages mouth the standards have been lowered .

    No, it literally was illegal under EU law to do so, and we respected that. The ability to do began during the so-called transition period.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
    Do you really think it's comparable?
    People are afraid to say things, because of the fear of consequences.

    Sounds pretty similar to me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533
    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I went on a motorcycle holiday there in the late eighties for a fortnight with my brother. I was on an RD200 and my brother on an MZ 250, so we didn't want to go too far into Europe.

    Some of the Flemish towns were interesting, the roads less so, but south of the Meuse in Belgium and Luxemboug was lovely biking country with uncrowded good quality roads, rolling countryside, interesting small towns and shady camping. In Luxembourg we camped in a lovely town in the north called Wilz, but Luxembourg city itself was a bit dull.

    At that time it wasn't unusual to see wrecked tanks left behind from the Battle of the Bulge in farmers fields. I don't know why the Ardennes was considered such an obstacle in 1940, it was hardly impenetrable jungle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,024
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I have.

    It's like one of the rather less interesting parts of Switzerland. It's expensive, and boring, and pleasant, and safe, and clean.

    I wouldn't want to spend more than 48 hours there. On the other hand, if the sun is shining, you will - I'm sure - have a perfectly pleasant time.
    Clearstream is there. It might be possible for him to get a guided tour of that. Watch some securities being settled.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting fact about Luxembourg: public transport is free for everyone, including tourists.

    I'd go so far as to say it may be the most interesting fact about Luxembourg.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    The taxis are outrageously expensive, but I'm afraid Davos has them beat.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118
    If the weather is good then the wine region on the banks of the Moselle in Luxembourg is worth visiting.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Lots of feminists have been driven offline, doxxed and stalked by far right male harassment. It isn't an unusual event, sadly.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,041

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
    So your first reaction is to.... talk about what is going on in America. How big of you.
    You asked, "if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them?" I was responding to that bit. My apologies if that was not clear.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    People in the US are afraid to criticise Trump. Even people in the UK who will be travelling to the US are afraid to criticise Trump.
    Do you really think it's comparable?
    People are afraid to say things, because of the fear of consequences.

    Sounds pretty similar to me.
    There's a difference between imaginary consequences and specific acts of violence and intimidation.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,025
    kinabalu said:

    Crossover klaxon:

    GE29* Most Seats, REF 2.62, LAB 2.64

    * 3rd May

    I'm surprised both figures are so high above 2. It seems remarkably unlikely at this point to be anyone else.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    The taxis are outrageously expensive, but I'm afraid Davos has them beat.

    Never been to Davos. But last time I was there my taxi from the airport in Luxembourg to the hotel was €92 for a 15 minute journey! The tram is free, though. I did that for the return.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,025
    edited May 7
    This should ruffle a few feathers. Personally, I instinctively bridle at unnecessary name changes - and this one is more unnecessary than many:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/07/heinz-renames-tartare-dip-fish-and-chips-sauce/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,041

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    Lizzie Dearden took an axe
    And gave the Nazis forty whacks
    When she saw what she had done
    She gave the Fascists forty one
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    edited May 7
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice

    Yep, there is that. And if you go out of Luxembourg town you'll get to hear people speaking Luxembourgish. I would not base a holiday on it, though!

  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434
    Ok so the consensus is I need maximum 4 nights in Lux
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,926
    edited May 7
    Cookie said:

    This should ruffle a few feathers. Personally, I instinctively bridle at unnecessary name changes - and this one is more unnecessary than many:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/07/heinz-renames-tartare-dip-fish-and-chips-sauce/

    Could be a genius move, if by doing so they can establish it as required eating in the minds of the public. I would have gone with something shorter though like "Chippy sauce".
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Leon said:

    Ok so the consensus is I need maximum 4 nights in Lux

    There is the province of Luxembourg in Belgium, which adjoins the country and may be bigger than it. Throw that in and you can probably justify four nights!

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,482
    Scott_xP said:

    @GeorgeWParker

    New - Indian officials say Badenoch talking "rubbish" over "two tier tax" attack on UK/India FTA. Say she agreed principle of exempting Indian workers from NICs when she was trade sec. Team Badenoch: "The Indians put it on the table and Kemi said No."

    https://x.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1920127480943223074

    As I predicted yesterday....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice

    Yep, there is that. And if you go out of Luxembourg town you'll get to hear people speaking Luxembourgish. I would not base a holiday on it, though!

    Yeah it’s not a holiday. It’s the gazette. Wanting to send me somewhere quirky. And it’s free and I get paid. And all I gotta do is wander around noticing nice things

    And I can probably wangle a five star hotel and Michelin meals. There are worse jobs
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 758
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Go see Schengen - Luxembourg, France and Germany all in one place.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,024
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover klaxon:

    GE29* Most Seats, REF 2.62, LAB 2.64

    * 3rd May

    I'm surprised both figures are so high above 2. It seems remarkably unlikely at this point to be anyone else.
    Cons swap KB for transformational new leader, Con/Ref merger, Fresh party entirely emerges, LD breakout ... all unlikely in themselves but in aggregate probably account for it.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,926
    Leon said:

    Ok so the consensus is I need maximum 4 nights in Lux

    Google informs me Patton's grave is there, in the American Cemetery.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,751

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    Never heard of this channel before but I think it might be this one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKD2j_L57XE
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533
    carnforth said:

    Cookie said:

    This should ruffle a few feathers. Personally, I instinctively bridle at unnecessary name changes - and this one is more unnecessary than many:
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/07/heinz-renames-tartare-dip-fish-and-chips-sauce/

    Could be a genius move, if by doing so they can establish it as required eating in the minds of the public. I would have gone with something shorter though like "Chippy sauce".
    They have co opted "Chip Shop Diva" into their advertising campaign, so savvy with the Zeitgeist.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yr282v2x2o
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,025
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,383
    I went to Luxembourg in the early eighties. Unfortunately, it was on a rugby tour hence my memories are very vague. I do remember being sent up with the front five to sort out a slight incident at a night club we visited. One of our players was being detained by the one of the ladies of the night. No real problems but his credit card wasn't being accepted. They were realtively new then but she managed to sort it out for him.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice

    Yep, there is that. And if you go out of Luxembourg town you'll get to hear people speaking Luxembourgish. I would not base a holiday on it, though!

    Yeah it’s not a holiday. It’s the gazette. Wanting to send me somewhere quirky. And it’s free and I get paid. And all I gotta do is wander around noticing nice things

    And I can probably wangle a five star hotel and Michelin meals. There are worse jobs

    I'll be genuinely interested to see if you turn anything up. I have to go there a couple of times a year for a week and it's not been hugely entertaining so far.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,926
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.
    Derby might not be the best example, given Rolls Royce's income...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.

    My company is there for tax reasons. It may not be the only one.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,041
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover klaxon:

    GE29* Most Seats, REF 2.62, LAB 2.64

    * 3rd May

    I'm surprised both figures are so high above 2. It seems remarkably unlikely at this point to be anyone else.
    It implies something like a 24% chance that another party will win most seats.

    I think there is a possibility that the Tories will return. Right now, that seems less likely than RefUK or Lab coming top, but it's far from being unbelievable. I could see that having a 20% chance.

    Another possibility is that Reform UK splits or collapses or merges with someone else, so that a party with Farage as leader wins the most seats, but it's not Reform UK. I could see that having a 4% chance.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,368
    edited May 7
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I have.

    It's like one of the rather less interesting parts of Switzerland. It's expensive, and boring, and pleasant, and safe, and clean.

    I wouldn't want to spend more than 48 hours there. On the other hand, if the sun is shining, you will - I'm sure - have a perfectly pleasant time.
    You're thinking of Lichtenstein, though I imagine the vibes are very similar to Luxembourg.
    No, I'm thinking of Luxembourg. I was IPOing a company based in Saarbrucken, and my MD didn't want to stay in Saarbrucken, and so we stayed in Luxembourg and commuted. Which was stupid, but what Goldman MD asks for... Goldman MD gets.
    I have stayed in Saarbrucken; it’s OK. You can take your dog to the zoo there.

    Lux has very cheap fuel, and very large filling stations, to cater for the zillions of people living within short driving distance and zillions more passing through, who all go fill up there.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,482
    CD13 said:

    I went to Luxembourg in the early eighties. Unfortunately, it was on a rugby tour hence my memories are very vague. I do remember being sent up with the front five to sort out a slight incident at a night club we visited. One of our players was being detained by the one of the ladies of the night. No real problems but his credit card wasn't being accepted. They were realtively new then but she managed to sort it out for him.

    And the credit card?
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,025

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.

    My company is there for tax reasons. It may not be the only one.

    Well quite, but why is this option not available for, say, the UK?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,041
    edited May 7
    Andy_JS said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    Never heard of this channel before but I think it might be this one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKD2j_L57XE
    Ah! So the channel is https://www.youtube.com/@Lubna.Candid

    EDIT: And the original video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8piwfzbM5WA
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,048
    IanB2 said:

    Seven days in Scotland and still not a drop of rain!


    Dog for scale in the Model Village'?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,751
    The LDs might already be ahead of the Tories in most of the country because of the way their support is concentrated in the home counties.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,482
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice

    Yep, there is that. And if you go out of Luxembourg town you'll get to hear people speaking Luxembourgish. I would not base a holiday on it, though!

    Yeah it’s not a holiday. It’s the gazette. Wanting to send me somewhere quirky. And it’s free and I get paid. And all I gotta do is wander around noticing nice things

    And I can probably wangle a five star hotel and Michelin meals. There are worse jobs
    Luxembourg isn't quirky. Just a typical nice, boring, French town. Nice without even being Surrey mum naice. Nothing wrong with it, nothing right with it.
  • Frank_BoothFrank_Booth Posts: 167
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,450

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Sadiq Khan gets death threats from islamists and the far right at the same time.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,383
    And the credit card?

    You used to have put them in a card reader and push the contraption across. I think it took the lady's more feminine movements to work it for him eventually.

    I, of course, being happily married didn't avail myself. It might have changed since then.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,040
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.

    My company is there for tax reasons. It may not be the only one.

    Well quite, but why is this option not available for, say, the UK?

    Demographics and history, I guess. I think by European standards Luxembourg has a very young population, for example, so does not have the social care and pension issues we have. Its defence budget is also not huge, etc etc.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,188
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.
    I used to manage the money for a large chunk of Belgium’s wealthiest families - there were vast amounts, billions and billions, in Luxembourg in the banks and so the banks were big and all the associated high wage jobs for accountants, trustees etc.

    I used to get coded invites to meeting and they wouldn’t take any paperwork from meetings but some did used to ask for bags of cash to be prepared which they would drive home.

    Every so often the Belgians would offer an amnesty on Lux money but hiding it there had become a habit and tradition.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,037
    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    I'm tempted to say that Luxembourg is to Europe as Rutland is to England, but that's a bit cruel.

    You get to spend a lot of money. I don't think there is anything hugely unique there - elements of nearby Belgium, Germany and France ! I recall a dramatic entry through a tunnel to a traditional pattern village around a castle on a river bend as found in Belgium, then a little beyond the most enormous dam.

    Good for cycle touring, but that's perhaps not you.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 758

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    Has anyone done a study of the relationship between ad-hominem comments and the use of CAPS LOCK. Seems to be quite a strong correlation but I've never tested it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    I'm not afraid to speak out against Islamism. I don't think Nigel Farage is either. I see no shortage of criticism of Islam online.

    You clearly aren't afraid to address this on this board, despite living in the UK.

    Where there clearly are issues are: (1) the violent response to things like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, and (2) in the Muslim community itself, where people are afraid to speak out, because of the consequences on their position in the community.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,533
    edited May 7

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    I don't support anyone beng harassed offline, but if you think it only an Islamist problem then you are clearly not open to serious discussion on the subject.

    Even the briefest stroll through X or YouTube comments runs very quickly into a sewer of invective. If you can't see that then you are part of the problem.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,482

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    Without being all centrist I can see both sides here. There is a real problem with Islamic fundamentalism and censorship which the vast majority would like to tackle and reduce, but the reason you are getting pushback is because of the language you yourself are using. Calling people fake liberals is rarely a great persuader any more than deplorables was.

    Your choice of words is fine if you want an argument, but rubbish if you want to change peoples minds or build a consensus.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,722
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.

    My company is there for tax reasons. It may not be the only one.

    Well quite, but why is this option not available for, say, the UK?
    The richest places on earth are all city states - of which I'd count Luxembourg as one.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,118
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    I don't support anyone beng harassed offline, but if you think it only an Islamist problem then you are clearly not open to serious discussion on the subject.

    Even the briefest stroll through X or YouTube comments runs very quickly into a sewer of invective. If you can't see that then you are part of the problem.
    There is a big difference between “a sewer of invective” and having your windows smashed for speaking out of line. If you can't see that then you are part of the problem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 60,434

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice

    Yep, there is that. And if you go out of Luxembourg town you'll get to hear people speaking Luxembourgish. I would not base a holiday on it, though!

    Yeah it’s not a holiday. It’s the gazette. Wanting to send me somewhere quirky. And it’s free and I get paid. And all I gotta do is wander around noticing nice things

    And I can probably wangle a five star hotel and Michelin meals. There are worse jobs
    Luxembourg isn't quirky. Just a typical nice, boring, French town. Nice without even being Surrey mum naice. Nothing wrong with it, nothing right with it.
    Maybe I'll just do one night, and pocket the fee. Unless I can get a spiffing 5 star
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,450
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Er, has anyone ever been to Luxembourg?!

    I've just been commissioned to go and see if it is nice. Is it?

    We have an office there. Luxembourg is nice and clean. The public transport is free, the taxis are probably the most expensive in the world. Get the tram from the airport. It's right by the terminal and takes you into the centre of town, which is about as interesting as a well kept French provincial town with a population of about 100,000. It's good for one night if your expectations are not too high. No-one who works in our Luxembourg office lives in Luxembourg. They commute in from France and Germany. That tells you all you need to know.

    lol. You’re all being very mean about Luxembourg

    I heard that the countryside is really rather nice
    Interesting question: why is Luxembourg so rich? Its economy was heavy industry. It has no coastline. Imagine if by some accident of history Derby and its immediate hinterland was a separate country - it would seem surprising for it to become much richer than the surrounding areas. I know microstates work differently, but it's not immediately obvious why, or why a greater-Derby could or would grow faster than rUK.

    My company is there for tax reasons. It may not be the only one.

    Well quite, but why is this option not available for, say, the UK?
    The richest places on earth are all city states - of which I'd count Luxembourg as one.
    Smaller states have the option to adopt essentially parasitic economic strategies that aren't available to larger economies.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,482
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT - re posting this as it only just made the end of the thread and I feel strongly about it

    Sad news to report.

    I have been following a youtube channel over the last few months by a British pakistani lady who has been talking about some of the issues within her community - generally things like religion, tolerance etc. However she has now posted a tearful video after being threatened and taken down her channel. When people ask why more British pakistanis do not speak out this is probably a good explanation. All very sad and fits a pattern. Salman Rushdie living in the US (but coming to Hay this month). Children expected to apologise for damaging a religious book, people in hiding, antisemitism rife. Many other things.

    Lots of people worry about the far right. But has anyone considered, if the far right are so dangerous why is no-one afraid to criticise them? Tomorrow we will honour the sacrifice of our parents' and grandparents' generation to preserve this country's freedom and heritage. Yet we are completely passive over a thuggery that has been allowed to run amok. I've tried to educate this site till I am blue in the face but it's clear now that many of you are fake liberals more concerned with your stock portfolio than the maintenance of free expression.

    There is clearly an Islamist threat to free speech, just as there is clearly a right wing (and in the US a particularly nutjub Christian) one too.

    Both need to be fought and resisted.

    If you aren't trying to protect speech you don't agree with, then you clearly don't really believe in free speech. You just believe in your speech being free.
    Where is the comparable threat to free speech from the right in the UK? There isn't one. As I pointed out, who is afraid of criticising the far right in the UK? Almost no-one. They don't believe there will be repercussions for doing so.
    Tell that to Lizzie Dearden.
    You think one individual being threatened and harassed amounts to a crisis of free speech? You are a joke.
    She is far from the only one.
    I'm sorry but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It's perfectly clear day after day that most people are perfectly happy criticising the far right without fear for their safety. When it comes to Islam people are treading on their toes for obvious reasons. Of course in any society you cannot guarantee against the occasional nutter.
    Clearly you don't listen to women on Social Media. They nearly all get abusive and threatening comments.

    Harassing people online ocurrs right across the spectrum of political belief.
    We all know that. The point about Islam is that the thugs are WINNING. People are afraid to speak out in a way they are not when it comes to almost anything else. How can an otherwise intelligent person like yourself be so blind to this? You are the definition of one of Lenin's useful idiots.
    Has anyone done a study of the relationship between ad-hominem comments and the use of CAPS LOCK. Seems to be quite a strong correlation but I've never tested it.
    Yes, the person that uses CAPS LOCK first wins 88% of arguments. However than can be INCREASED by using CAPS LOCK both first and most often to a BIGLY 272% of arguments!!!!
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