Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It's not at all unusual in my experience. My parents were relatively well off, yet I never went abroad before I was in my twenties, and first visited London when I went to uni at eighteen. And we lived near Derby.
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
I've known people from Dagenham (a London suburb) who'd never been to the West End.
Some 35 or so years ago I employed, on Canvey Island, a 20 year olf who, when we started talking about trainig courses, asked if she'd have to go off "The Island". Apparently she'd never even been to Southend!
@isam - I have to say I find it hard to shed tears for people taking advantage of rising house prices to move two stops down the tube to bigger houses and nicer parts of the world. The people left behind certainly do deserve sympathy. But they have only been left behind because others have gone. Are you saying that people are wrong to move out of areas and to aspire to better things because others are not able to take advantage of change in the way that they can?
I think that people don't like it where the place that they were brought up in, where their family has lived for generations, is changed in less than one generation into a place they don't recognise. It hasn't happened in my area yet, but I know plenty of people who have moved to Hornchurch from Dagenham, Becontree etc because they hate what has become of their old hometown. My original point was that only people that aren't from the area tend to have a rosy view of the new community,
I know you are a fan of the Jam, I would say "Saturdays Kids" springs to mind.
"These are the real creatures that time has forgot. Not given a thought"
Your point seemed to be that Stella Creasey was a liberal, metropolitan leftie from outside London who had absolutely no interest in the white working class of Walthamstow. I know plenty of people who have moved out of Camden and Islington, me included. As we were discussing yesterday they are both areas that have changed hugely in the space of a generation. No-one I know has moved out because of the changes. They have moved out because the places in which they lived suddenly became much more valuable and they were able to take advantage of that. My house, an hour fro London is worth around £500,000. In North London it would be worth around £3 million.
That was my point, and you have just shown that you are not the type of person who I am talking about.
Do you think house prices in Barking and Dagenham are equivalent to those in Camden and Islington?
Here we are, three bedroom houses within 1/2 a mile of Heathway Station, sorted from most expensive
Apologies for coming in so late to the discussion, but the pension revolution budget has re-energised my interest in politics. It will make a HUGE difference to us. We are your hard-working family that has always tried to do the right and responsible thing and up til now has felt rather left out. So cheers George!
In Lab terms (NPXMP pls correct me) there is not much of a distinction between UKIP and BNP and hence the vitriol.
No, you're not speaking for me there. I know and like lot of UKIP supporters, starting with my uncle (former local executive member), plus the late UKIP candidate in Broxtowe and the chap who seems likely to be the next one, and what I know of several UKIP people here like Richard Tyndall and Sean Fear. I had a job-related stand at the UKIP conference and got on happily with the people there. Obviously they have some nutters but they are not alone in that.
By contrast, I've met a number of BNP supporters too and they ranged from barely tolerable to appalling - really it's a party that lives down to its image, and I did try to keep an open mind.
I have no doubt that for some people immigration is a huge issue that matters above all else. But then I look at the IPSOS-MORI poll to find out how many people see it as a vital issue affecting them and their families and I see a relatively low percentage.
Probably that's because immigration mainly affects London and one or two other places. Proportionately therefore it would not appear significant if you don't live there.
I am always astounded, however, when I drive from London to Tetbury and fill up the car at the Tesco, to be served by a white cashier. The last time this happened to me in London was when I was served by a Hasidic Jewish cashier at Esso Highgate. Before that I can't remember when it happened.
"Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?"
That's not an insult, Nick. That's a defensible characterisation of your party's perceived attitude. You might disagree with it, but it's a discreditable debating tactic to try to close down a discussion by claiming that even to express it constitutes an insult.
Minorly pleasurable Indy Yougov last night, all grist to the trend mill.
John Curtice scathing about the Dambusters:
Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon 2 hrs John Curtice in the Times - 'the no campaign...at risk of becoming an irritating background noise to which nobody listens anymore'
I see SEANT is panicking , arguing with James Kelly and WOS on twitter about NO lead in polls. Unionists are getting ever more desperate.
I have said it before and will say it again. I would not be at all surprised to find Yes winning. The No campaign has been negative and dull and uninspiring, even if what it has said may be correct.
Sometimes ruling yourself is more important than whether you will be richer as part of another country. Self-respect matters and if the Scots vote for independence I wish them luck and hope that we can agree an amicable divorce and a good working relationship for the future.
Beyond that I simply don't care. I hope never to hear another Scots politician talking to English voters since all the ones I've been aware of have been largely either ghastly or atrocious in what they've done. I expect the Scots feel the same way about English politicians.
In Lab terms (NPXMP pls correct me) there is not much of a distinction between UKIP and BNP and hence the vitriol.
No, you're not speaking for me there. I know and like lot of UKIP supporters, starting with my uncle (former local executive member), plus the late UKIP candidate in Broxtowe and the chap who seems likely to be the next one, and what I know of several UKIP people here like Richard Tyndall and Sean Fear. I had a job-related stand at the UKIP conference and got on happily with the people there. Obviously they have some nutters but they are not alone in that.
By contrast, I've met a number of BNP supporters too and they ranged from barely tolerable to appalling - really it's a party that lives down to its image, and I did try to keep an open mind.
Appreciate the clarification.
So to my main thrust of Lab not being able to handle ex-Lab Kippers. I believe this stems more from the disassociation of all parties from the WWC. In Lab's case this seems to me on account of a disinclination to appear prejudiced hence ignoring Sam's perfectly understandable views and indeed demonising them.
Why do you think erstwhile Lab supporters, with all the values that Lab once espoused, have migrated to UKIP?
(edited to correct a syntactical and spelling horror show)
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
Apologies for coming in so late to the discussion, but the pension revolution budget has re-energised my interest in politics. It will make a HUGE difference to us. We are your hard-working family that has always tried to do the right and responsible thing and up til now has felt rather left out. So cheers George!
Sabretooth
Also cheers to the Pensions Minister, Steve Webb (Lib Dem), who is the architect of the policy.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It's not at all unusual in my experience. My parents were relatively well off, yet I never went abroad before I was in my twenties, and first visited London when I went to uni at eighteen. And we lived near Derby.
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
Interesting. I wonder if this aversion to/ignorance of London is behind some of the shouting we have seen over the possible cancellation of the HS2/HS1 link. If someone regards London as a big scary place then walking a few hundred yards down the Euston Road might seem an impossible imposition (though how anyone with such an attitude is going to get on crossing Paris I dread to think).
Some Londoners carry a mental mental map of the Country where North of the Watford Gap is marked, "Here be whippets, cloth caps and tripe" . By the same token there would seem to be those who have a map on which there is a line below which is an area marked, "Here be bankers and spivs". Its nice to see that nobody is worried about dragons any more but in terms of understanding some people don't seem to have progressed too far.
To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen.
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
I live five stops along the tube from Heathway, in a two bedroom house that cost £335,000 a year ago. So how would a family from Dagenham, who require a three bed, get on in Upminster?
"Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?"
That's not an insult, Nick. That's a defensible characterisation of your party's perceived attitude. You might disagree with it, but it's a discreditable debating tactic to try to close down a discussion by claiming that even to express it constitutes an insult.
So what do you think Labour should be doing for the WWC then? Most of the things I guess they might like to do would be the sorts of thing that would instantly rattle the bond markets etc. That's why they don't go there, and instead deliver tory-lite flim flam.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It's not at all unusual in my experience. My parents were relatively well off, yet I never went abroad before I was in my twenties, and first visited London when I went to uni at eighteen. And we lived near Derby.
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
Interesting. I wonder if this aversion to/ignorance of London is behind some of the shouting we have seen over the possible cancellation of the HS2/HS1 link. If someone regards London as a big scary place then walking a few hundred yards down the Euston Road might seem an impossible imposition (though how anyone with such an attitude is going to get on crossing Paris I dread to think).
Some Londoners carry a mental mental map of the Country where North of the Watford Gap is marked, "Here be whippets, cloth caps and tripe" . By the same token there would seem to be those who have a map on which there is a line below which is an area marked, "Here be bankers and spivs". Its nice to see that nobody is worried about dragons any more but in terms of understanding some people don't seem to have progressed too far.
To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen.
My Cumbrian father-in-law after the war spent all his life in and around Kendal with regular trips to the Duddon valley. He last went to London in 1946 when he was demobbed and refused ever again to go near the place. He was not unusual amongst his peers and, frankly, if you live somewhere as lovely as the Lake District why would you leave, unless you had to?
Returning to the question of telegenic Labour women, I'd never heard of Liz Kendall so I googled her.
I'd have to say it's not going to help her that she resembles Liz Jones. Every time she is on TV and the host says ":Liz, what would you say to that?" more viewers are likely to say "who gives a flying ʞɔnɟ what Liz Jones thinks about anything?" than to say "yes, that Liz Kendall - she's definitely a woman, so I guess she gets my vote."
Caroline Flint was quite foxy too but it became quite clear in office that she owed her position to that, to being mixed race and to having that all-important second X chromosome. All of these qualified her to be given something important to do in a Labour government, but none of them, as we saw, equipped her to carry out it noticeably effectively.
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
They are all ex-council places. They would originally have been bought for an absolute song. In the last year house prices in Dagenham have gone up close to 8%. They are up close to 15% compared to five years ago. I imagine that compared to 10 years ago they are up by much more than that.
"Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?"
That's not an insult, Nick. That's a defensible characterisation of your party's perceived attitude. You might disagree with it, but it's a discreditable debating tactic to try to close down a discussion by claiming that even to express it constitutes an insult.
So what do you think Labour should be doing for the WWC then? Most of the things I guess they might like to do would be the sorts of thing that would instantly rattle the bond markets etc. That's why they don't go there, and instead deliver tory-lite flim flam.
That's probably for another thread, although they could start with restricting unskilled immigration that lowers their wages and with removing the perverse benefit incentives that keep them poor.
My point was simply that to say Labour doesn't give a stuff about them cannot be described as an insult.
In Lab terms (NPXMP pls correct me) there is not much of a distinction between UKIP and BNP and hence the vitriol.
No, you're not speaking for me there. I know and like lot of UKIP supporters, starting with my uncle (former local executive member), plus the late UKIP candidate in Broxtowe and the chap who seems likely to be the next one, and what I know of several UKIP people here like Richard Tyndall and Sean Fear. I had a job-related stand at the UKIP conference and got on happily with the people there. Obviously they have some nutters but they are not alone in that.
By contrast, I've met a number of BNP supporters too and they ranged from barely tolerable to appalling - really it's a party that lives down to its image, and I did try to keep an open mind.
Appreciate the clarification.
So to my main thrust of Lab not being able to handle ex-Lab Kippers. I believe this stems more from the disassociation of all parties from the WWC. In Lab's case this seems to me on account of a disinclination to appear prejudiced hence ignoring Sam's perfectly understandable views and indeed demonising them.
Why do you think erstwhile Lab supporters, with all the values that Lab once espoused, have migrated to UKIP?
(edited to correct a syntactical and spelling horror show)
Indeed, and in his responses to me, Nick has proved my point about Labours handling, and lack of understanding, of their old voters.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Interesting. I wonder if this aversion to/ignorance of London is behind some of the shouting we have seen over the possible cancellation of the HS2/HS1 link. If someone regards London as a big scary place then walking a few hundred yards down the Euston Road might seem an impossible imposition (though how anyone with such an attitude is going to get on crossing Paris I dread to think).
Some Londoners carry a mental mental map of the Country where North of the Watford Gap is marked, "Here be whippets, cloth caps and tripe" . By the same token there would seem to be those who have a map on which there is a line below which is an area marked, "Here be bankers and spivs". Its nice to see that nobody is worried about dragons any more but in terms of understanding some people don't seem to have progressed too far.
To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen.
My Cumbrian father-in-law after the war spent all his life in and around Kendal with regular trips to the Duddon valley. He last went to London in 1946 when he was demobbed and refused ever again to go near the place. He was not unusual amongst his peers and, frankly, if you live somewhere as lovely as the Lake District why would you leave, unless you had to?
I think I may have said this story before: when I lived in London in the early 1990s, there was an item on the early evening news about a woman in her ?eighties? who had never been off the Isle of Dogs.
Then there was my Londoner graduate friend who mistook a cow for a badger ... ;-)
I think it's a mistake for us to believe that everyone - or indeed most people - are as widely travelled or as knowledgeable about places as we are.
Caroline Flint was quite foxy too but it became quite clear in office that she owed her position to that, to being mixed race and to having that all-important second X chromosome. All of these qualified her to be given something important to do in a Labour government, but none of them, as we saw, equipped her to carry out it noticeably effectively.
Mixed race? What are you on about? Bit early in the day to have hit the gin.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
I filled out a YouGov poll on perceptions of London a couple of weeks ago. It would be good to see the results at some point.
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
They are all ex-council places. They would originally have been bought for an absolute song. In the last year house prices in Dagenham have gone up close to 8%. They are up close to 15% compared to five years ago. I imagine that compared to 10 years ago they are up by much more than that.
Yes and the house prices have also gone up, probably by a bigger %, in Hornchurch, and Upnster.. so that's no good for people leaving Dagenham is it? You said they would be moving to bigger homes in nicer areas.. well they wouldn't be would they?
So what do you think Labour should be doing for the WWC then? Most of the things I guess they might like to do would be the sorts of thing that would instantly rattle the bond markets etc. That's why they don't go there, and instead deliver tory-lite flim flam.
Labour claim repeatedly to represent working people. However, they have a poor track record on keeping and increasing the very essence of what defines working people - jobs. Every Labour Govt. has left office with unemployment higher than it inherited.
This Coalition has already delivered what Labour could only dream of having done. The job creation since 2010 has been far ahead of what many of us might have hoped they could provide, notwithstanding the Coalition's determination to increase apprenticeships. It is certainly in stark contrast to Labour and its journeymen's hand-wringing and talk of 5 million unemployed.
The best thing the WWC can do is leave the Government to get on with creating jobs. They might also want to quiz Labour on why the party of the workers has so much difficulty getting them work.
I've been doing a few sums this morning, by April 2015 average national I come will be slightly higher in real terms than April 2010. Not by a lot though. I'll have a look at the sums properly in the evening, but looking at a range of indicators and the slowing of employment growth I think wage growth will outstrip inflation by enough to overhaul the real terms losses from 2010 to 2013.
Could be a real key factor going into the election, and as I said back in October, Labour would do well to move on from this cost of living crap. Back then I said that in February real terms wages would begin to grow in the private sector (that has happened) now again the equation is going to change and Labour will be left behind.
Part of the reason Labour are struggling in the polls is because people have become responsive to the Governments central theme that the economy is recovering and less responsive to Labour's cost of living crisis theme. The budget just galvanised this position. If Labour don't move on from this theme then they will be left behind on polling day. The reason people are responding to the government argument where they weren't before is because wage growth in the private sector (25m out of 30.5m people who work) has begun to grow in real terms. As the growth rate increases Labour will find it tougher and tougher to get through.
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
They are all ex-council places. They would originally have been bought for an absolute song. In the last year house prices in Dagenham have gone up close to 8%. They are up close to 15% compared to five years ago. I imagine that compared to 10 years ago they are up by much more than that.
Yes and the house prices have also gone up, probably by a bigger %, in Hornchurch, and Upnster.. so that's no good for people leaving Dagenham is it? You said they would be moving to bigger homes in nicer areas.. well they wouldn't be would they?
It depends on how much equity they have and what they are after.
So what do you think Labour should be doing for the WWC then? Most of the things I guess they might like to do would be the sorts of thing that would instantly rattle the bond markets etc. That's why they don't go there, and instead deliver tory-lite flim flam.
Labour claim repeatedly to represent working people. However, they have a poor track record on keeping and increasing the very essence of what defines working people - jobs. Every Labour Govt. has left office with unemployment higher than it inherited.
This Coalition has already delivered what Labour could only dream of having done. The job creation since 2010 has been far ahead of what many of us might have hoped they could provide, notwithstanding the Coalition's determination to increase apprenticeships. It is certainly in stark contrast to Labour and its journeymen's hand-wringing and talk of 5 million unemployed.
The best thing the WWC can do is leave the Government to get on with creating jobs. They might also want to quiz Labour on why the party of the workers has so much difficulty getting them work.
Why is it then that more working people support Labour than any other party?
Went to Chippeneham on business a few years ago. Grabbed a cab at the stations. Taxi drvier says... "You come down from London?" "Yes, just for the day..."(interuppted) "I went to London once.....................did'nt like it"
and that was it for 20 minutes.
His delivery was comedic perfection, has to be my most memorable cabbie conversation ever and ordinarily I am very locquacious with cabbie's.
Interesting. I wonder if this aversion to/ignorance of London is behind some of the shouting we have seen over the possible cancellation of the HS2/HS1 link. If someone regards London as a big scary place then walking a few hundred yards down the Euston Road might seem an impossible imposition (though how anyone with such an attitude is going to get on crossing Paris I dread to think).
Some Londoners carry a mental mental map of the Country where North of the Watford Gap is marked, "Here be whippets, cloth caps and tripe" . By the same token there would seem to be those who have a map on which there is a line below which is an area marked, "Here be bankers and spivs". Its nice to see that nobody is worried about dragons any more but in terms of understanding some people don't seem to have progressed too far.
To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen.
My Cumbrian father-in-law after the war spent all his life in and around Kendal with regular trips to the Duddon valley. He last went to London in 1946 when he was demobbed and refused ever again to go near the place. He was not unusual amongst his peers and, frankly, if you live somewhere as lovely as the Lake District why would you leave, unless you had to?
I think I may have said this story before: when I lived in London in the early 1990s, there was an item on the early evening news about a woman in her ?eighties? who had never been off the Isle of Dogs.
Then there was my Londoner graduate friend who mistook a cow for a badger ... ;-)
I think it's a mistake for us to believe that everyone - or indeed most people - are as widely travelled or as knowledgeable about places as we are.
I made my father in law almost wet himself laughing when he found out that I thought a hare was a male rabbit. I confirmed everything he had ever thought about Londoners.
Caroline Flint was quite foxy too but it became quite clear in office that she owed her position to that, to being mixed race and to having that all-important second X chromosome. All of these qualified her to be given something important to do in a Labour government, but none of them, as we saw, equipped her to carry out it noticeably effectively.
Mixed race? What are you on about? Bit early in the day to have hit the gin.
I'm fairly sure I read an interview with her some years ago in which she indicated that her father, whom she didn't know, was Hispanic / South American.
Whatever - the tokenism points were what got her ahead, which was also her own opinion. She described herself as window dressing.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
Apologies for coming in so late to the discussion, but the pension revolution budget has re-energised my interest in politics. It will make a HUGE difference to us. We are your hard-working family that has always tried to do the right and responsible thing and up til now has felt rather left out. So cheers George!
Sabretooth
Also cheers to the Pensions Minister, Steve Webb (Lib Dem), who is the architect of the policy.
My Cumbrian father-in-law after the war spent all his life in and around Kendal with regular trips to the Duddon valley. He last went to London in 1946 when he was demobbed and refused ever again to go near the place. He was not unusual amongst his peers and, frankly, if you live somewhere as lovely as the Lake District why would you leave, unless you had to?
Quite right Mrs. Free, but by the same token if you were born into a shit hole why would you not leave unless you couldn't? People will always, always make the best decisions for themselves depending the information and understanding they have available. Unfortunately, that just brings us back to education and perhaps the same people who are telling us that they don't believe people are limited to their home area are the same people who tell us that the English education system is basically doing a good job.
In the 1980s my aunt had a cleaner at her holiday home on the Isle of Wight. Gladys. The subject of travel came up one day and Gladys said she’d been ‘all over’. ‘All over’ it transpired meant Ventnor, Shanklin, Freshwater and Cowes! She had never been to the mainland. Gladys, on the back of the chat with my aunt, persuaded herself (and her poor husband) to go on a holiday and, unimaginably, chose to go on a coach tour from the Isle of Wight to Glasgow! She decided that the IoW was better and never left again. I’ll never forget Gladys.
So to my main thrust of Lab not being able to handle ex-Lab Kippers. I believe this stems more from the disassociation of all parties from the WWC. In Lab's case this seems to me on account of a disinclination to appear prejudiced hence ignoring Sam's perfectly understandable views and indeed demonising them.
Why do you think erstwhile Lab supporters, with all the values that Lab once espoused, have migrated to UKIP?
(edited to correct a syntactical and spelling horror show)
I think that lots of voters don't think in left-right spectrums (spectri?). There have always been a proportion who are just fed up and will grab any new offer, and that's more true now than usual ("They're all crap"). Labour is losing a much smaller proportion to UKIP than Tories, perhaps reflecting the fact that although UKIP presents itself as on the side of the WWC, many of their people starting with Farage don't really look either working-class or Labour (can you possibly imagine Farage as a Labour MP?). In that way, horrible though they are, the BNP look more the part, and I'd guess that's why their vote held up in Wythenshawe.
Clearly there are some voters who'd describe themselves as traditionally Labour but voting UKIP over immigration and/or Europe. But it's not in my experience usually that distinct (and I do talk to an awful lot of voters) - it's more a nebulous protest vote with immigration being just part of the alienated mix.
I've not demonised Sam's views, by the way. I just don't think they're as widespread as he believes.
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
They are all ex-council places. They would originally have been bought for an absolute song. In the last year house prices in Dagenham have gone up close to 8%. They are up close to 15% compared to five years ago. I imagine that compared to 10 years ago they are up by much more than that.
Yes and the house prices have also gone up, probably by a bigger %, in Hornchurch, and Upnster.. so that's no good for people leaving Dagenham is it? You said they would be moving to bigger homes in nicer areas.. well they wouldn't be would they?
It depends on how much equity they have and what they are after.
You aren't arguing sensibly here. You started by trying to compare Barking and Dagenham to Islington and Camden, which is like comparing penny sweets with caviar
The best three bed house in Dagenham is on offer for £275k.. you then slipped in a made up figure of £60,000 as an example of what they might have paid for it, when the facts are that 3 bed Houses that were bought in the 21st Century for £75k go for no more than £150k
Why not just admit that mass immigration has been very bad for a lot of working class English people in East London, and you think the positives for people who move into London outweigh the damage to working class communities? That's Labours policy
As a twitcher, I have probably seen more of Britain than 99.99% of its occupants. I have been within at least 10 miles of any point in England and probably Wales - although oddly I have not yet been to the rare bird-magnet that is Lundy.
I have also been over big chunks of mainland Scotland, although the Uists still need to be visited (hope to do that from Barra this autumn - visa requirements permitting!).
So to my main thrust of Lab not being able to handle ex-Lab Kippers. I believe this stems more from the disassociation of all parties from the WWC. In Lab's case this seems to me on account of a disinclination to appear prejudiced hence ignoring Sam's perfectly understandable views and indeed demonising them.
Why do you think erstwhile Lab supporters, with all the values that Lab once espoused, have migrated to UKIP?
(edited to correct a syntactical and spelling horror show)
I think that lots of voters don't think in left-right spectrums (spectri?). There have always been a proportion who are just fed up and will grab any new offer, and that's more true now than usual ("They're all crap"). Labour is losing a much smaller proportion to UKIP than Tories, perhaps reflecting the fact that although UKIP presents itself as on the side of the WWC, many of their people starting with Farage don't really look either working-class or Labour (can you possibly imagine Farage as a Labour MP?). In that way, horrible though they are, the BNP look more the part, and I'd guess that's why their vote held up in Wythenshawe.
Clearly there are some voters who'd describe themselves as traditionally Labour but voting UKIP over immigration and/or Europe. But it's not in my experience usually that distinct (and I do talk to an awful lot of voters) - it's more a nebulous protest vote with immigration being just part of the alienated mix.
I've not demonised Sam's views, by the way. I just don't think they're as widespread as he believes.
I feel you have demonised my views, but we will have to agree to disagree.
But look, time will tell, truth will out. I predict the UKIP vote will absolutely soar in the suburbs on the East of London (lets say Barking to Basildon) in the elections this year and next years GE...
I live here and I know lots of people who are going to vote UKIP, who arent racist, but who feel exactly, literally exactly, how the people speaking out against immigration in that Question Time audience felt.
If it doesn't soar, I am wrong, if it does, you are wrong? Fair enough?
London already has an automated railway, the Docklands Light Railway. Even though almost all of the stations are above ground, there is still a member of staff aboard the train at all times.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
As a twitcher, I have probably seen more of Britain than 99.99% of its occupants. I have been within at least 10 miles of any point in England and probably Wales - although oddly I have not yet been to the rare bird-magnet that is Lundy.
I have also been over big chunks of mainland Scotland, although the Uists still need to be visited (hope to do that from Barra this autumn - visa requirements permitting!).
Autumn? That's interesting, as I'd like to go in late spring for the machair flowers behind the Atlantic beaches. What will you be hoping to see?
As a twitcher, I have probably seen more of Britain than 99.99% of its occupants. I have been within at least 10 miles of any point in England and probably Wales - although oddly I have not yet been to the rare bird-magnet that is Lundy.
I have also been over big chunks of mainland Scotland, although the Uists still need to be visited (hope to do that from Barra this autumn - visa requirements permitting!).
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Leeds I've only been for a couple of weekends as a child, Sheffield I've basically only been to to go to a Rolling Stone concert with my dad when I was about 18, and Bradford I've not been to either..
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
Careful. Quoting that working people stat is the equivalent of a cluster bomb on PB. Isam will soon be in touch telling you you have to deduct all the pensioners from Ukip and Tory support and do your sums again.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Leeds I've only been for a couple of weekends as a child, Sheffield I've basically only been to to go to a Rolling Stone concert with my dad when I was about 18, and Bradford I've not been to either..
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
I'd love it to be an announcement that they have identified an extra-solar-system object that is decelerating. And on a trajectory towards Earth.
I think I'd come close to sh1tting myself if that was the case. There's a better-than-evens chance that Earth would end up being part of a new asteroid belt.
Just 'cos we'd be nice to aliens on their planet doesn't mean they're likely to act the same way. Think Independence Day rather than Cocoon.
@MarqueMark – odd question, - why does a twitcher have a Privet hawk moth for an avatar?
Simon, I have largely twitched as many birds as I can expect to see in the UK - down to maybe one or two new birds a year.
However, there are records of over 2,400 species of moths in the UK, so I have branched out! It turns out the place in South Devon I have moved to is a moth "hot spot" - last autumn I discovered a mass of rare migrant moths, which came up from southern Europe or even north Africa. As well as the privet, I also had elephant, many hummingbird and three convolvulus hawk moths.
I can just about get my head round bird migration - but insect migration I find just remarkable.
I'll cycle the avatar round to show a few more different species over time....
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Leeds I've only been for a couple of weekends as a child, Sheffield I've basically only been to to go to a Rolling Stone concert with my dad when I was about 18, and Bradford I've not been to either..
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
Wouldn't worry about visiting Bradford
As I got my window egged last week in a racist attack,the love for my city is at a low point.
The biggest town I haven't visited is probably Northampton, although I don't think there's much to see there apart from housing estates - (apologies to Northampton residents).
The biggest town I haven't visited is probably Northampton, although I don't think there's much to see there apart from housing estates - (apologies to Northampton residents).
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Had job interviews at both Leeds and Sheffield. Apart from doing all railway lines (apart from a few preserved railways) within a 50 mile radius of London (2011/2012), I've been to Bristol, Birmingham, Coventry (where I'm based during weekdays), Nuneaton, Leamington, Leicester, Leeds, Sheffield, Alderley Edge and the longest rail journey I've had so far London to St Andrews via Leuchars. Currently working my way round the West Midlands by rail. Already done Birmingham to Coventry, Nuneaton to Coventry, Leamington to Coventry, Leamington to Birmingham, Leamington to Bicester, Banbury to Oxford, Nuneaton to Stafford (WCML), and Birmingham to Stafford.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Leeds I've only been for a couple of weekends as a child, Sheffield I've basically only been to to go to a Rolling Stone concert with my dad when I was about 18, and Bradford I've not been to either..
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
Wouldn't worry about visiting Bradford
As I got my window egged last week in a racist attack,the love for my city is at a low point.
Sorry to hear that. What was their gripe? Or was just general discontent, anger and an aversion to people with a different skin tone?
I've recently mostly given up on Radio Scotland* GMS, Newsdrive and RS News, plus I'm having very serious thoughts about continuing buying the Scotsman and Herald every morning.
There is so much drivel coming from both sides of the debate, neither side is prepared to debate honestly and are only prepared to give stock answers which are mostly smears on the opposite side. Boring!
* No, I do not listen to the Sainted Robbie Shepherd, but, I would recommend "Out of Doors" 06:30 every Saturday, from outside in the car park of BBC Aberdeen in all weathers, Yep! Nuts, but normally very interesting and quite often, thought provoking. Listen from the comfort of a nice warm bed.
Scotsman is dire and its comments even worse. Herald is a bit better. Headlines on sunday morning at 9am is quite good but due to this they are going to axe it.
@HurstLlama - "To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen. "
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Having said that I consider myself pretty widely travelled in this country, and I've never been to the following places: Manchester Liverpool Newcastle Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit) Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
What are your thoughts on Leeds, Sheffield and Bradford ?
Leeds I've only been for a couple of weekends as a child, Sheffield I've basically only been to to go to a Rolling Stone concert with my dad when I was about 18, and Bradford I've not been to either..
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
Wouldn't worry about visiting Bradford
As I got my window egged last week in a racist attack,the love for my city is at a low point.
Sorry to hear that. What was their gripe? Or was just general discontent, anger and an aversion to people with a different skin tone?
Well if we are one of the last white family in the street and we found out that the people we have been having trouble with using racist remarks about us,then I would go on skin tone.
@MarqueMark – cheers, I knew there had to be a sensible explanation – here in south wilts, we regularly get poplar, lime and elephant hawkmoth caterpillars in the garden, with the occasional hummingbird adult feeding on the buddleia during a good summer. Nothing as exotic as a convolvulus mores the pitty.
Just LOLing at the price freeze news. It would be hilarious to reprint the threads at the time in which our Conservative friends assured us that the energy firms would put their prices up following Ed's policy.
Just LOLing at the price freeze news. It would be hilarious to reprint the threads at the time in which our Conservative friends assured us that the energy firms would put their prices up following Ed's policy.
LOL.
It was said that the effect of an external freeze could have a negative consequence for investment. SEE's freeze will be paid for by sacking 500 staff and the cancellation of two power generation projects. Not a laughing matter.
Just LOLing at the price freeze news. It would be hilarious to reprint the threads at the time in which our Conservative friends assured us that the energy firms would put their prices up following Ed's policy.
Comments
I have 63% of the voters in my camp. You? 19%....
Do you think house prices in Barking and Dagenham are equivalent to those in Camden and Islington?
Here we are, three bedroom houses within 1/2 a mile of Heathway Station, sorted from most expensive
Top of the range... £275,000
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=STATION^2576&insId=1&radius=0.5&displayPropertyType=houses&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=3&minPrice=&maxPrice=&retirement=&partBuyPartRent=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&_includeSSTC=on&sortByPriceDescending=&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&newHome=&auction=false
By contrast, I've met a number of BNP supporters too and they ranged from barely tolerable to appalling - really it's a party that lives down to its image, and I did try to keep an open mind.
I am always astounded, however, when I drive from London to Tetbury and fill up the car at the Tesco, to be served by a white cashier. The last time this happened to me in London was when I was served by a Hasidic Jewish cashier at Esso Highgate. Before that I can't remember when it happened.
Sometimes ruling yourself is more important than whether you will be richer as part of another country. Self-respect matters and if the Scots vote for independence I wish them luck and hope that we can agree an amicable divorce and a good working relationship for the future.
Beyond that I simply don't care. I hope never to hear another Scots politician talking to English voters since all the ones I've been aware of have been largely either ghastly or atrocious in what they've done. I expect the Scots feel the same way about English politicians.
So to my main thrust of Lab not being able to handle ex-Lab Kippers. I believe this stems more from the disassociation of all parties from the WWC. In Lab's case this seems to me on account of a disinclination to appear prejudiced hence ignoring Sam's perfectly understandable views and indeed demonising them.
Why do you think erstwhile Lab supporters, with all the values that Lab once espoused, have migrated to UKIP?
(edited to correct a syntactical and spelling horror show)
Here we are, three bedroom houses within 1/2 a mile of Heathway Station, sorted from most expensive
Top of the range... £275,000
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?searchType=SALE&locationIdentifier=STATION^2576&insId=1&radius=0.5&displayPropertyType=houses&minBedrooms=&maxBedrooms=3&minPrice=&maxPrice=&retirement=&partBuyPartRent=&maxDaysSinceAdded=&_includeSSTC=on&sortByPriceDescending=&primaryDisplayPropertyType=&secondaryDisplayPropertyType=&oldDisplayPropertyType=&oldPrimaryDisplayPropertyType=&newHome=&auction=false
But if you bought it for £60,000 a few years back you are in a position to make an absolute killing. We sold our last place in London, a three bedroomed terrace house in Archway, for £285,000, having bought it four years earlier for £125,000. The place we moved to in Southam - four bedrooms, big garden - cost us £215,000.
Also cheers to the Pensions Minister, Steve Webb (Lib Dem), who is the architect of the policy.
Fortunately for the Coalition the nation is stuck with Ed.
Some Londoners carry a mental mental map of the Country where North of the Watford Gap is marked, "Here be whippets, cloth caps and tripe" . By the same token there would seem to be those who have a map on which there is a line below which is an area marked, "Here be bankers and spivs". Its nice to see that nobody is worried about dragons any more but in terms of understanding some people don't seem to have progressed too far.
To pick up on Mr. Observer's point, that he thinks it unusual for a Brit not to have visited London, I might respectfully suggest he gets out of his nice middle class cocoon a bit more. There are many, many people (especially those who are not at all well off) who never travel more than a few miles in their entire lives. Go to any big "council" housing estate and you'll find them by the dozen.
£60,0000? How long back?! Please, be credible
I live five stops along the tube from Heathway, in a two bedroom house that cost £335,000 a year ago. So how would a family from Dagenham, who require a three bed, get on in Upminster?
I'd have to say it's not going to help her that she resembles Liz Jones. Every time she is on TV and the host says ":Liz, what would you say to that?" more viewers are likely to say "who gives a flying ʞɔnɟ what Liz Jones thinks about anything?" than to say "yes, that Liz Kendall - she's definitely a woman, so I guess she gets my vote."
Caroline Flint was quite foxy too but it became quite clear in office that she owed her position to that, to being mixed race and to having that all-important second X chromosome. All of these qualified her to be given something important to do in a Labour government, but none of them, as we saw, equipped her to carry out it noticeably effectively.
They are all ex-council places. They would originally have been bought for an absolute song. In the last year house prices in Dagenham have gone up close to 8%. They are up close to 15% compared to five years ago. I imagine that compared to 10 years ago they are up by much more than that.
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/dagenham/
My point was simply that to say Labour doesn't give a stuff about them cannot be described as an insult.
I said an English person. Coming form London myself, I can only really gauge it from the non-Londoners I know. Many of those are members of my wife's family, which is very rural and very working class. The idea that they are in a middle class cocoon is laughable. They have all been to London for one reason or another. But it looks like a lot of English people have not. I still find such lack of interest and/or opportunity strange.
Then there was my Londoner graduate friend who mistook a cow for a badger ... ;-)
I think it's a mistake for us to believe that everyone - or indeed most people - are as widely travelled or as knowledgeable about places as we are.
I filled out a YouGov poll on perceptions of London a couple of weeks ago. It would be good to see the results at some point.
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/dagenham/
Yes and the house prices have also gone up, probably by a bigger %, in Hornchurch, and Upnster.. so that's no good for people leaving Dagenham is it? You said they would be moving to bigger homes in nicer areas.. well they wouldn't be would they?
This Coalition has already delivered what Labour could only dream of having done. The job creation since 2010 has been far ahead of what many of us might have hoped they could provide, notwithstanding the Coalition's determination to increase apprenticeships. It is certainly in stark contrast to Labour and its journeymen's hand-wringing and talk of 5 million unemployed.
The best thing the WWC can do is leave the Government to get on with creating jobs. They might also want to quiz Labour on why the party of the workers has so much difficulty getting them work.
http://www.eso.org/public/announcements/ann14021/
Literally.
Could be a real key factor going into the election, and as I said back in October, Labour would do well to move on from this cost of living crap. Back then I said that in February real terms wages would begin to grow in the private sector (that has happened) now again the equation is going to change and Labour will be left behind.
Part of the reason Labour are struggling in the polls is because people have become responsive to the Governments central theme that the economy is recovering and less responsive to Labour's cost of living crisis theme. The budget just galvanised this position. If Labour don't move on from this theme then they will be left behind on polling day. The reason people are responding to the government argument where they weren't before is because wage growth in the private sector (25m out of 30.5m people who work) has begun to grow in real terms. As the growth rate increases Labour will find it tougher and tougher to get through.
It depends on how much equity they have and what they are after.
"You come down from London?"
"Yes, just for the day..."(interuppted)
"I went to London once.....................did'nt like it"
and that was it for 20 minutes.
His delivery was comedic perfection, has to be my most memorable cabbie conversation ever and ordinarily I am very locquacious with cabbie's.
Whatever - the tokenism points were what got her ahead, which was also her own opinion. She described herself as window dressing.
Manchester
Liverpool
Newcastle
Glasgow (only to airport, and driving through it, never to visit)
Edinburgh
I think that's pretty much it in terms of sizable cities. Birmingham I've only been to briefly for a few times (including a couple of job interviews when I was a graduate)
Clearly there are some voters who'd describe themselves as traditionally Labour but voting UKIP over immigration and/or Europe. But it's not in my experience usually that distinct (and I do talk to an awful lot of voters) - it's more a nebulous protest vote with immigration being just part of the alienated mix.
I've not demonised Sam's views, by the way. I just don't think they're as widespread as he believes.
I'd love it to be an announcement that they have identified an extra-solar-system object that is decelerating. And on a trajectory towards Earth.
But it won't happen.
If it is aliens - poll boost for UKIP?
You aren't arguing sensibly here. You started by trying to compare Barking and Dagenham to Islington and Camden, which is like comparing penny sweets with caviar
The best three bed house in Dagenham is on offer for £275k.. you then slipped in a made up figure of £60,000 as an example of what they might have paid for it, when the facts are that 3 bed Houses that were bought in the 21st Century for £75k go for no more than £150k
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detail.html?country=england&locationIdentifier=STATION^2576&searchLocation=Dagenham+Heathway+Station&columnToSort=PRICE_ASC&propertyType=4&radius=0.5&year=7&referrer=listChangeCriteria&index=25
Why not just admit that mass immigration has been very bad for a lot of working class English people in East London, and you think the positives for people who move into London outweigh the damage to working class communities? That's Labours policy
I have also been over big chunks of mainland Scotland, although the Uists still need to be visited (hope to do that from Barra this autumn - visa requirements permitting!).
But look, time will tell, truth will out. I predict the UKIP vote will absolutely soar in the suburbs on the East of London (lets say Barking to Basildon) in the elections this year and next years GE...
I live here and I know lots of people who are going to vote UKIP, who arent racist, but who feel exactly, literally exactly, how the people speaking out against immigration in that Question Time audience felt.
If it doesn't soar, I am wrong, if it does, you are wrong? Fair enough?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/mar/26/cameron-and-miliband-at-pmqs-politics-live-blog
I was 'lucky' as a child that we did go for a lot of weekends away to a lot of places (my dad liked chess competitions), and like Mark both my mum and dad liked bird watching, so I've been to a lot of nature places. But then we were a nice middle class family which could afford to do those kind of things.
Didn't go abroad though until I was 19 and went to France with my GF at the time...
Careful. Quoting that working people stat is the equivalent of a cluster bomb on PB. Isam will soon be in touch telling you you have to deduct all the pensioners from Ukip and Tory support and do your sums again.
It won't make any difference.
Your lucky.
http://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/local/2015-will-be-defining-election-battle-says-green-party-hopeful-1-5938099?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Labour MP Nic Dakin reselected in Scunthorpe:
http://www.scunthorpetelegraph.co.uk/Labour-picks-candidate/story-20838963-detail/story.html
Just 'cos we'd be nice to aliens on their planet doesn't mean they're likely to act the same way. Think Independence Day rather than Cocoon.
However, there are records of over 2,400 species of moths in the UK, so I have branched out! It turns out the place in South Devon I have moved to is a moth "hot spot" - last autumn I discovered a mass of rare migrant moths, which came up from southern Europe or even north Africa. As well as the privet, I also had elephant, many hummingbird and three convolvulus hawk moths.
I can just about get my head round bird migration - but insect migration I find just remarkable.
I'll cycle the avatar round to show a few more different species over time....
http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/news/2014/03/moore-reselected-borders-0
It would be hilarious to reprint the threads at the time in which our Conservative friends assured us that the energy firms would put their prices up following Ed's policy.
LOL.
Not a laughing matter.