Yep, its got Leftie Londoner (who wasn't born there) written all over it.. who cares about the community whose Grandparents lived there.. theyre probably all racist anyway #liberalbigotry
"Profile: An east London seat covering Waltamstow and Higham Hill. This is a multicultural working class suburb, largely built as a affordable housing for the working class at the beginning of the last century. In the past the white working class vote (and in 1987 a huge tax hike from a Labour council) made this a marginal seat, but demographic changes and a growing ethnic minority population mean this is now safely Labour.
The Labour selection has attracted some controversy from Labour activists. Neil Gerrard is to stand down and his replacement will be selected through an all women shortlist, which some have criticised as missing an opportunity to select a male black or asian candidate for a seat that has both large asian and afro-carribean communities."
I can't believe there's a discussion of E17 and Walthamstow and no one has mentioned that one of the finest bands this country has ever produced came from there.
As someone with knowledge of airlines, any thoughts on flight 570? Does the idea of a plane load of asphixiated passengers and crew flying on autopilot have any possibility?
With the plane seemingly deep under the Southern Ocean we may never know.
Morning Dr Fox
Frankly no. Radio 4 had a talking head on yesterday espousing this theory or something similar. He was talking about one of the crew on a suicide mission, locking his co-pilot out then climbing to over FL400 then turning off the air con blah blah blah... If a pilot was going to take a plane down surely he would just put a boot on the column and dive it to the ocean? Quick, easy and no chance of being stopped.
The hypoxia theory doesn't explain loss of transponder etc., Also, the a/c wouldn't change course/alter altitude. It would just continue on its merry way cf Helios 522.
My gut instinct is hijack. The SeanT part of my brain says the a/c is sitting on an island somewhere with the valuable (if there was any) cargo gone, along with the complicit crew. The rational part though suspects a hostile takeover (hence the transponder being switched off so the crew couldn't transmit 7500), with an attempt made to fly to Oz for asylum reasons. Sadly the attempt was botched somewhere off Perth.
Isn't conjecture a wonderful thing....
M
Was there enough fuel to reach Australia by such circuitous route?
It is true enough. I have only been in Leicester 20 years so I do not miss what I do not know of the old Leicester.
But what is true of the professional class is much less true of others. A few weeks ago I was talking to one of our receptionists about visiting my brother in London. I could have been talking of outer Monglolia. She had never been there despite it being a little over an hour by train. Those of us who flit around the world do not recognise that most peoples horizons are much closer. The flipside is that they tend to be much more attached to a place than we rootless cosmopolitans.
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
Exactly, well said.
I have lived in many different parts of England, and Europe, but still have the ability to empathise with those who haven't been able to do so.
That a prospective/former MP cannot do this is astonishing, but sadly typical
@Stuart_Dickson - I am certainly not arguing against Scottish independence. I am merely pointing out that the monetary, economic and fiscal policies for an independent Scotland outlined by the SNP's leadership bear no relation to reality. I also accept that for a dyed-in-the-wool Scottish nationalist such as yourself that really does not matter.
I do agree that post-independence Scotland will have to choose between the high tax, strong welfare systems favoured by the Nordic countries, or the smaller state, low tax regime favoured by Ireland. I think it is a shame that the SNP leadership will not address these fundamental issues, but I understand why they don't want to.
Minorly pleasurable Indy Yougov last night, all grist to the trend mill.
John Curtice scathing about the Dambusters:
Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon 2 hrs John Curtice in the Times - 'the no campaign...at risk of becoming an irritating background noise to which nobody listens anymore'
I see SEANT is panicking , arguing with James Kelly and WOS on twitter about NO lead in polls. Unionists are getting ever more desperate.
I would like to see Alex Salmond included in the best PM numbers even if there's no chance of him becoming PM.
Why would anybody non-Scottish think he would be a good British PM ? Presumably he would be biased to Scotland and therefore be a rubbish PM for anybody English ,Welsh or Irish. So I don't agree he should be put in
I would like to see Alex Salmond included in the best PM numbers even if there's no chance of him becoming PM.
Well we include Clegg and Farage (I think?). For all the bluster on here sometimes there is a 99%+ chance either Dave will have a second term or Ed Miliband will be PM.
It is true enough. I have only been in Leicester 20 years so I do not miss what I do not know of the old Leicester.
But what is true of the professional class is much less true of others. A few weeks ago I was talking to one of our receptionists about visiting my brother in London. I could have been talking of outer Monglolia. She had never been there despite it being a little over an hour by train. Those of us who flit around the world do not recognise that most peoples horizons are much closer. The flipside is that they tend to be much more attached to a place than we rootless cosmopolitans.
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
Exactly, well said.
I have lived in many different parts of England, and Europe, but still have the ability to empathise with those who haven't been able to do so.
That a prospective/former MP cannot do this is astonishing, but sadly typical
But your argument is that huge numbers of white working class people have been displaced in Walthamstow by immigrants, so haven't they done exactly what Nick said and moved?
In 1979, I voted Labour with a heavy heart knowing the Tories led by Pol Pot would still have won.
This is what I just find utterly extraordinary. How could any rational person in 1979 possibly contemplate voting Labour? What reasons other than being tribal could there have been?
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
Nothing to do with what I prefer, I have lived in many different parts of England and abroad.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
In 1979, I voted Labour with a heavy heart knowing the Tories led by Pol Pot would still have won.
This is what I just find utterly extraordinary. How could any rational person in 1979 possibly contemplate voting Labour? What reasons other than being tribal could there have been?
My father voted Labour in 1979 and 1983. By 1987 he was voting Tory, and has done so ever since.
I think he's the only man in the country that voted Lab in 1983 and Tory in 1997
I would like to see Alex Salmond included in the best PM numbers even if there's no chance of him becoming PM.
Why would anybody non-Scottish think he would be a good British PM ? Presumably he would be biased to Scotland and therefore be a rubbish PM for anybody English ,Welsh or Irish. So I don't agree he should be put in
I think a fair few in the North would prefer an Edinburgh based PM. Perhaps Wales too. Salmond's campaign against the Westminster establishment has resonance.
I am interested to know if what Nick Palmer claimed about people who stay in the same area as they are born/brought up in are in a minority is true? Is there any stats or is it based on personal experience?
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It is true enough. I have only been in Leicester 20 years so I do not miss what I do not know of the old Leicester.
But what is true of the professional class is much less true of others. A few weeks ago I was talking to one of our receptionists about visiting my brother in London. I could have been talking of outer Monglolia. She had never been there despite it being a little over an hour by train. Those of us who flit around the world do not recognise that most peoples horizons are much closer. The flipside is that they tend to be much more attached to a place than we rootless cosmopolitans.
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
Today, Cameron probably still retains an edge in terms of likeability (notwithstanding the oafish attempts from certain parts of the media to stir up the issue of his background); but more importantly it is the competency question in which he and his administration undoubtedly have the edge in opinion.
Exactly. The choice is surely between a Cameron-led administration which is generally amiable, broad-minded, and efficient; and a repeat of Brown's administration, with essentially the same cast, which was spiteful, vicious, and inept. And is happy to say it has learned nothing and has nothing to apologise for.
This is what I just find utterly extraordinary. How could any rational person in 1979 possibly contemplate voting Labour? What reasons other than being tribal could there have been?
Because at the time it was widely felt that the battle against the unions could not be won, and that therefore the best of a bad job was to try to bribe them into being marginally less destructive. 'Managing decline' had been the gloomy Establishment policy for years, and who better to manage decline than Labour?
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
my school mate (now a copper) only went for the first time 3 years ago (when 41) and then only because his wife was getting an award . I also count him as being among the more enlightened of the 'Mansfield' set!
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
Exactly, well said.
I have lived in many different parts of England, and Europe, but still have the ability to empathise with those who haven't been able to do so.
That a prospective/former MP cannot do this is astonishing, but sadly typical
But your argument is that huge numbers of white working class people have been displaced in Walthamstow by immigrants, so haven't they done exactly what Nick said and moved?
They may have moved two stops down on the tube to a place that resembles where they used to live, only with less immigrants, as many people from Barking, Becontree, Dagenham, Elm Park have
But also many are left behind, too poor to move or too old to be bothered in a place they don't recognise. I am not saying there aren't benefits to immigration for some, usually people that move into an area that has been subject to mass immigration because they are fans of that policy and its affects. I just acknowledge that there are big disadvantages too, usually affecting the poor and the old whose families have lived there for generations.
Yet anyone who acknowledges this, is pounced on for being racist, even when race isn't mentioned.
I would go as far as to say that I would have the same sympathy for the Asian communities in Whitechapel, West Ham, Tower Hamlets if the place they have called home for three generations is changed into a yuppie area by gentrification, and the high street that at the moment might as well be in Asia, is turned uinto a luvvie coffee/sushi bar area for City workers
And, I'm sure it's not PC to say so - but people's faces count. They say politics is showbiz for ugly people. Well...Ed's face. It IS a problem.
The big problem with Ted Miliband's face is not that looks ugly but that he looks Jewish. Labour mobilised this factor against Michael Howard in 2005, to energise a particular demographic element of their core to go out and vote against him. It would be surprising if some of that demographic did not remember and reapply the message in 2015.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
my school mate (now a copper) only went for the first time 3 years ago (when 41) and then only because his wife was getting an award . I also count him as being among the more enlightened of the 'Mansfield' set!
One thing I've never got on pb is what people think they're gaining by making up implausible theories about other posters' mental states. (Panicking, desperate, rattled, etc etc etc.)
Today, Cameron probably still retains an edge in terms of likeability (notwithstanding the oafish attempts from certain parts of the media to stir up the issue of his background); but more importantly it is the competency question in which he and his administration undoubtedly have the edge in opinion.
Exactly. The choice is surely between a Cameron-led administration which is generally amiable, broad-minded, and efficient; and a repeat of Brown's administration, with essentially the same cast, which was spiteful, vicious, and inept. And is happy to say it has learned nothing and has nothing to apologise for.
You'd think this wouldn't be a tough call.
It isn't.
But we have to keep the Mark Senior happy by pretending to take the polls seriously.
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
"a honeypot for middle class young families" I'm getting a mental image of 'yummy mummies' heading to the gym with strollers and stopping off for a latte afterwards. I think I've thrown up a little in my mouth.
"How could any rational person in 1979 possibly contemplate voting Labour?"
Hope over experience. There's still a chance that mild mannered Ed will undress in a phone booth and re-emerge as Super-Ed, the hero of the hour. But somehow I doubt it. He's a career politician, and not a very good one. Ruthlessness isn't the same as courage.
It is the sheer confidence of the Tories that I find interesting. You see it on here daily - if the polls tighten, it's crossover in x days. When they widen again, it's panic, blame the electorate for its stupidity and start murmuring among yourself about how to protect your assets from a Marxist government.
Minorly pleasurable Indy Yougov last night, all grist to the trend mill.
John Curtice scathing about the Dambusters:
Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon 2 hrs John Curtice in the Times - 'the no campaign...at risk of becoming an irritating background noise to which nobody listens anymore'
I see SEANT is panicking , arguing with James Kelly and WOS on twitter about NO lead in polls. Unionists are getting ever more desperate.
Panicking? He said that 'yes' we're doing well under the circumstances, and that was last night.
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
Nothing to do with what I prefer, I have lived in many different parts of England and abroad.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
As someone with knowledge of airlines, any thoughts on flight 570? Does the idea of a plane load of asphixiated passengers and crew flying on autopilot have any possibility?
With the plane seemingly deep under the Southern Ocean we may never know.
Morning Dr Fox
Frankly no. Radio 4 had a talking head on yesterday espousing this theory or something similar. He was talking about one of the crew on a suicide mission, locking his co-pilot out then climbing to over FL400 then turning off the air con blah blah blah... If a pilot was going to take a plane down surely he would just put a boot on the column and dive it to the ocean? Quick, easy and no chance of being stopped.
The hypoxia theory doesn't explain loss of transponder etc., Also, the a/c wouldn't change course/alter altitude. It would just continue on its merry way cf Helios 522.
My gut instinct is hijack. The SeanT part of my brain says the a/c is sitting on an island somewhere with the valuable (if there was any) cargo gone, along with the complicit crew. The rational part though suspects a hostile takeover (hence the transponder being switched off so the crew couldn't transmit 7500), with an attempt made to fly to Oz for asylum reasons. Sadly the attempt was botched somewhere off Perth.
Isn't conjecture a wonderful thing....
M
Was there enough fuel to reach Australia by such circuitous route?
And why Perth, not Darwin?
KL to Perth is 2595 miles (according to Google, at least). But the plane went down over a thousand miles west of Perth. KL to Darwin is 2272 miles, although this would mean it flying over Indonesia.
*None* of the possible scenarios makes sense to me. Despite this, I'm still favouring some combination of technical failures.
One thing I've never got on pb is what people think they're gaining by making up implausible theories about other posters' mental states. (Panicking, desperate, rattled, etc etc etc.)
Clearly you're insane* if you don't realise the value of making up implausible theories about other posters' mental states.
*For the avoidance of doubt, Edmund you're not insane, your're brilliantly perceptive.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
You are out of touch, Southam! Lots of people have never visited London.
Many years ago we owned a weekend cottage in Gloucestershire. One of our neighbours, probably in his fifties, had never visited London - a couple of hours away by car. Eventually he decided that he'd give it a go, so he drove on the M4 towards London. By Heston he decided that he'd seen enough, so he turned round at the next junction and came home.
Today, Cameron probably still retains an edge in terms of likeability (notwithstanding the oafish attempts from certain parts of the media to stir up the issue of his background)
It's not the media, it is: a) political opponents b) Tory backbenchers who think it unfair they were passed over for Minister for Paperclips in favour of yet another bloody Etonian c) Tory backbenchers who think it is only Dave's school preventing 30 per cent poll leads d) Michael Gove putting the boot into Boris
One thing I've never got on pb is what people think they're gaining by making up implausible theories about other posters' mental states. (Panicking, desperate, rattled, etc etc etc.)
and if you read his tweets they are hardly arguing, SeanT was even agreeing that Yes was doing well and was in with a shot.
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
"a honeypot for middle class young families" I'm getting a mental image of 'yummy mummies' heading to the gym with strollers and stopping off for a latte afterwards. I think I've thrown up a little in my mouth.
That's Labour for you.. that's why I don't vote for them anymore
I'll say it again, The Indy ref is going to be close, only the heir to Kingdom of Idiots thinks No is nailed on to win.
Yes is closing the gender gap, the childcare policy is proving popular, and the gap between those who think an Independent Scotland will be worse off is narrowing.
I will say it again , Yes is toast and has been from the start . There has been no closing of the gap , views are entrenched and the only movements you see are MofE and methodology changes from poll to poll and this will remain the case for the next 6 months . I know you do not like that there is no exciting story to tell about a close race hence the almost complete ignoring of yesterday's TNS-BMRB poll which had the Yes % down 1 , in reality no change other than MofE .
Yawn, get ready for egg on face. Another dyed in the wool unionist baffled trying to get Yougov weighting for GE to match a one off referendum.
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
Nothing to do with what I prefer, I have lived in many different parts of England and abroad.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
my school mate (now a copper) only went for the first time 3 years ago (when 41) and then only because his wife was getting an award . I also count him as being among the more enlightened of the 'Mansfield' set!
Now that Coalville may be losing its shining gem of the Snibston Discovery Centre they may have to travel more afar for their cultural fix (or their lifting up a mini manually fix)
On topic - the timescale of that graph is to be noted - just three weeks. I'm not sure, therefore, that it tells us anything comparable to Ed Miliband's long-term poor ratings.
I find it somewhat hard to believe that people really had changed their views of the relative merits of Callaghan and Thatcher so much in such a short time (especially as they went on to elect Thatcher in the ballot box). It's impossible now to know, but I wonder if the significance of the change was perhaps a sort of valedictory thank you to Callaghan for trying? He was quite a popular figure, and even his political opponents didn't doubt his decency and the sincerity of his attempts to sort out the mess, feeble though they were.
There is also the wording of the question, which is rather ambiguous. "Would make the better PM"...
i) the incumbent PM is always in the race, so perhaps there is a response bias. Of course the PM would make a better PM than someone who is not... er, the PM?
ii) better in what sense? Better for me or the country? Or just looks more like a PM?
iii) "Would" make the better PM (if only he could get his act together/wasn't lumbered with the loony Labour party/leading a cabinet of machiavellian ferrets/etc., etc.)
Lebo & Norpoth focus on the unambigous question. "Are you satisfied with the way X is doing his job as PM?"
On that measure Callaghan had just 36% (Gallup), which their model accurately calibrated as a losing score...
If you put Gordon Brown and King bleedin' Solomon up against each other in a "who'd make the bets PM" poll I reckon 29% would say Solomon was less suited to the role than Gordon Brown.
King Solomon, he's the bloke who believes in open-cast mines, innit? Not having having him.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?
Well, I said "many" and I stick to that. I know plenty of working-class people and poor people who weren't born where they are now, and in my patch at least I'd say it was a majority. It'd be interesting to see you produce some data (does the census cover it?) instead of slinging random insults around.
Obviously that doesn't mean that they've been following SeanT to luxury hotels round the world: they may have just moved fro Manchester to Nottingham. But communities where most people have always lived there are, I believe, becoming rare, not because of immigration but simply because people move around for work and relationship reasons.
Fox's point is true too, though - a lot of people see London as a big step to take: intimidatingly big, complex and notoriously expensive. I don't think his secretary would have responded in the same way if he'd said he was going to, say, Leeds.
Lots of people in Mansfield have never been to London but then again how many Londoners have been to Mansfield (Some Barnet and Leyton Orient fans will have maybe)
It is true enough. I have only been in Leicester 20 years so I do not miss what I do not know of the old Leicester.
But what is true of the professional class is much less true of others. A few weeks ago I was talking to one of our receptionists about visiting my brother in London. I could have been talking of outer Monglolia. She had never been there despite it being a little over an hour by train. Those of us who flit around the world do not recognise that most peoples horizons are much closer. The flipside is that they tend to be much more attached to a place than we rootless cosmopolitans.
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
I think that's a major problem with PB: there are very few 'ordinary' posters on here. The site veers towards the highly intelligent, better-off and highly-mobile type of person, whatever their political persuasion.
There are exceptions to all of the above, of course. ;-)
Thus we talk about the best restaurants in Nice, ancient wars, the law and all sorts of other highfalutin things.
One idiot even witters endlessly on about HS2 and engineering.
Few of us are the 'common man', if such a thing even exists.
"self praise is no praise at all", you typify the over bloated opinion some people on here have of themselves perfectly.
@isam - I have to say I find it hard to shed tears for people taking advantage of rising house prices to move two stops down the tube to bigger houses and nicer parts of the world. The people left behind certainly do deserve sympathy. But they have only been left behind because others have gone. Are you saying that people are wrong to move out of areas and to aspire to better things because others are not able to take advantage of change in the way that they can?
Stella Creasy is a perfect example of a leftie in London.
Brought up in Manchester, then Colchester, now buzzes about at the "vibrant diverse " community of Walthamstow, in the way that only someone who wasn't brought up in Walthamstow, hasn't seen friends and family move away to be replaced by waves of immigrants, and doesn't think of it as "home" can.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Show us a post saying "it's crossover in x days". The only people who go on about crossover are wannabe leftie comics, as far as I can see.
There have been quite a few on this site predicting/hoping for crossover in the imminent future, none of which materialised. I'm familiar with the "election campaign will sort it out" theory. Been there, got the T-shirt. It doesn't usually work.
Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?
Interesting point. I live in a large village with a history of mining which has moved upmarket in the last 40 years, and as a result attracted lots of mobile middle class families - still 99% white british I guess. I am clearly of this ilk. The people squeezed are the traditional WWC of the village, who still expect to spend their whole life living here, as their parents often did, despite there being few jobs in the village, and increasingly few council or affordable homes. Should such people have an expectation that they can spend their whole lives in the village of their birth, when local economics militate otherwise? Or should they be more open to movement, as the aspirational middle classes did back in the 60s and onwards?
2 yougov polls in a row where the Lib Dems have managed the psychologically important double figures. The debate with Farage could still help them take votes from Labour and the Greens (who shouldn't be underestimated in the Euros).
Lots of people in Mansfield have never been to London but then again how many Londoners have been to Mansfield (Some Barnet and Leyton Orient fans will have maybe)
I have. But I don't suppose I count as a Londoner these days.
I am still surprised that people have not been down to London - not even on a day trip, a school trip, or on the way to somewhere else.
As someone with knowledge of airlines, any thoughts on flight 570? Does the idea of a plane load of asphixiated passengers and crew flying on autopilot have any possibility?
With the plane seemingly deep under the Southern Ocean we may never know.
Morning Dr Fox
Frankly no. Radio 4 had a talking head on yesterday espousing this theory or something similar. He was talking about one of the crew on a suicide mission, locking his co-pilot out then climbing to over FL400 then turning off the air con blah blah blah... If a pilot was going to take a plane down surely he would just put a boot on the column and dive it to the ocean? Quick, easy and no chance of being stopped.
The hypoxia theory doesn't explain loss of transponder etc., Also, the a/c wouldn't change course/alter altitude. It would just continue on its merry way cf Helios 522.
My gut instinct is hijack. The SeanT part of my brain says the a/c is sitting on an island somewhere with the valuable (if there was any) cargo gone, along with the complicit crew. The rational part though suspects a hostile takeover (hence the transponder being switched off so the crew couldn't transmit 7500), with an attempt made to fly to Oz for asylum reasons. Sadly the attempt was botched somewhere off Perth.
Isn't conjecture a wonderful thing....
M
Was there enough fuel to reach Australia by such circuitous route?
And why Perth, not Darwin?
KL to Perth is 2595 miles (according to Google, at least). But the plane went down over a thousand miles west of Perth. KL to Darwin is 2272 miles, although this would mean it flying over Indonesia.
*None* of the possible scenarios makes sense to me. Despite this, I'm still favouring some combination of technical failures.
It was an early theory with East Africa (Somalia) being mooted as the most likely destination.
There followed much discussion about fuel capacity. Apparently the Kuala Lumpur to Beijing route would only have required the wing tanks of the B777-200 to be filled leaving the centre tanks available for discretionary use.
Apparently some airlines carry additional fuel for return journeys where the differential cost of refueling at destination airports justifies the added outbound load. Also, according to PPRuNe, some pilots have a secondary business going on where they buy addtional fuel on their Amex cards and resell it at high cost destinations.
All these rumours were however scotched when Malaysian Airlines belatedly confirmed that MH370 was only carrying sufficient fuel to reach Beijing plus the minimum mandatory overload required for safety reasons.
If you put Gordon Brown and King bleedin' Solomon up against each other in a "who'd make the bets PM" poll I reckon 29% would say Solomon was less suited to the role than Gordon Brown.
King Solomon, he's the bloke who believes in open-cast mines, innit? Not having having him.
It's actually an example of quite a typical Brit nowadays. People who grow up in one place and stay there throughout their lives are a minority.
Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?
Well, I said "many" and I stick to that. I know plenty of working-class people and poor people who weren't born where they are now, and in my patch at least I'd say it was a majority. It'd be interesting to see you produce some data (does the census cover it?) instead of slinging random insults around.
Obviously that doesn't mean that they've been following SeanT to luxury hotels round the world: they may have just moved fro Manchester to Nottingham. But communities where most people have always lived there are, I believe, becoming rare, not because of immigration but simply because people move around for work and relationship reasons.
Fox's point is true too, though - a lot of people see London as a big step to take: intimidatingly big, complex and notoriously expensive. I don't think his secretary would have responded in the same way if he'd said he was going to, say, Leeds.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It's not at all unusual in my experience. My parents were relatively well off, yet I never went abroad before I was in my twenties, and first visited London when I went to uni at eighteen. And we lived near Derby.
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
Strange world we live in when its the right who are not saying 'get on your bike' and the left ,if not quite sneering , then not understanding anybody who does 'not get on their bike'
Lots of people in Mansfield have never been to London but then again how many Londoners have been to Mansfield (Some Barnet and Leyton Orient fans will have maybe)
Minorly pleasurable Indy Yougov last night, all grist to the trend mill.
John Curtice scathing about the Dambusters:
Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon 2 hrs John Curtice in the Times - 'the no campaign...at risk of becoming an irritating background noise to which nobody listens anymore'
I see SEANT is panicking , arguing with James Kelly and WOS on twitter about NO lead in polls. Unionists are getting ever more desperate.
Panicking? He said that 'yes' we're doing well under the circumstances, and that was last night.
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
Nothing to do with what I prefer, I have lived in many different parts of England and abroad.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
Some real people clearly feel like that. Others do not.
4/5 of the people from Barking who spoke about immigration on QT felt that way.
20% agreed with you
I have no doubt that for some people immigration is a huge issue that matters above all else. But then I look at the IPSOS-MORI poll to find out how many people see it as a vital issue affecting them and their families and I see a relatively low percentage.
Out of interest, I wonder what percentage of the population of England has never been to London. I do not think I have ever met someone with a British passport who has not visited the capital. I have met a fair few who have not been outside of the UK (most of my wife's family, for example), but never having been to London - that does strike me as being very unusual.
It's not at all unusual in my experience. My parents were relatively well off, yet I never went abroad before I was in my twenties, and first visited London when I went to uni at eighteen. And we lived near Derby.
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
I've known people from Dagenham (a London suburb) who'd never been to the West End.
People on here often make confident predictions of what the consequences of various actions will be, and it's always worth revisiting this when the consequences start to become clear. This is beginning to happen with Miliband's energy price freeze pledge.
Firstly, SSE has pledged to freeze energy prices until after the election. This is contrary to the confident assertion of many of Miliband's critics that the energy companies would increase their prices prior to the election in anticipation of the price freeze.
I think you will find that SSE did in fact raise their prices after Ed's announcement of his brilliant fool-proof plan to cut our bills.
Miliband announced his idea in September 2013.
SSE announced in October 2013 that they would raise their prices by 8.2% from 15 November.
SSE has now generously announced that they will keep these new higher prices until at least January 2016.
If you want Miliband to take credit for that you are welcome to it.
Lots of people in Mansfield have never been to London but then again how many Londoners have been to Mansfield (Some Barnet and Leyton Orient fans will have maybe)
Why would you go to Mansfield?
League 2 football nowadays - (not so much diving and stupid goal celebrations there!!)
Used to be the old centre of Sherwood Forest (if you walk out in a straight line from Mansfield town centre you will be guaranteed to come across a Robin Hood or Maid Marion named pub within a mile)
Wheelgate adventure Park - which used to feature a highly dangerous real fishing boat (complete with sharp edges ,big drops and rotting wood) when it was called Wonderland until presumably a health and safety inspection gated it up. Its improved since then a lot but if you go on a midweek in school term it can resemble Neverland in its visitor to rides ratio
@isam - I have to say I find it hard to shed tears for people taking advantage of rising house prices to move two stops down the tube to bigger houses and nicer parts of the world. The people left behind certainly do deserve sympathy. But they have only been left behind because others have gone. Are you saying that people are wrong to move out of areas and to aspire to better things because others are not able to take advantage of change in the way that they can?
I think that people don't like it where the place that they were brought up in, where their family has lived for generations, is changed in less than one generation into a place they don't recognise. It hasn't happened in my area yet, but I know plenty of people who have moved to Hornchurch from Dagenham, Becontree etc because they hate what has become of their old hometown. My original point was that only people that aren't from the area tend to have a rosy view of the new community,
I know you are a fan of the Jam, I would say "Saturdays Kids" springs to mind.
"These are the real creatures that time has forgot. Not given a thought"
@Isam doesn't realise that E17 is a honeypot for middle class young families of all colours and has among the fastest growing house prices in London and a rapidly growing cultural and gastronomic scene. He prefers Hornchurch.
Nothing to do with what I prefer, I have lived in many different parts of England and abroad.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
Some real people clearly feel like that. Others do not.
4/5 of the people from Barking who spoke about immigration on QT felt that way.
20% agreed with you
I have no doubt that for some people immigration is a huge issue that matters above all else. But then I look at the IPSOS-MORI poll to find out how many people see it as a vital issue affecting them and their families and I see a relatively low percentage.
It is an issue that affects all others. Someone may be struggling to get a house, or for a job, and would rank that higher than immigration because it is more pressing to their lives, but mass immigration is the driving force behind it.
You could look at where UKIP are polling well now as an indicator of how people feel about the issue if you like. Or wonder why they were on 1% two years ago and are sometimes in the high teens now.
I'll say it again, The Indy ref is going to be close, only the heir to Kingdom of Idiots thinks No is nailed on to win.
Yes is closing the gender gap, the childcare policy is proving popular, and the gap between those who think an Independent Scotland will be worse off is narrowing.
I so hope you're right. Fingers crossed for a Yes here.
On the energy price freeze, the difference between the Conservatives and Labour is the difference between persuasion and compulsion - between anti-smoking adverts and criminalising smoking. It's a pretty clear difference, but from PMQs it seems Cameron doesn't want to fight on that ground.
Lefties not holding the line apart from ever reliable George...
George Eaton@georgeeaton·1 min That terrible bingo joke aside, strong session for Miliband that will settle some Labour nerves. #PMQs
Nigel Morris@NigelpMorris·2 mins Felt like a Cameron win today in #pmqs
Rafael Behr@rafaelbehr·3 mins Ed M not winning an argument there on the big issue that was supposed to prove he is winning the argument. Not great. #PMQs
"Its not true of many working class and poor people, but those aren't important to Labour politicians anymore are they?"
And that's what passes as an insult is it? Jesus
The difficulty for Lab politicians, Sam, is that in their minds you are an anomaly and awkward to boot. It is a convenient myth to state that all Kippers are golf club colonels but the reality forces Lab to look in upon themselves and acknowledge that there are a number of people such as yourselves, ex-Lab, young (-ish!) who support the Lab bogeyman. In Lab terms (NPXMP pls correct me) there is not much of a distinction between UKIP and BNP and hence the vitriol.
At least we (Cons) only think you are all bonkers, but not actively evil.
I'm guessing that the company has done deals on long-term energy prices with its suppliers, and has set the long-term price to its customers (us plebs) accordingly. The company has long-term security.
That is very different from Miliband's plan, where the price would be frozen at a level he decides regardless of the price obtainable by the energy companies, where the companies have long-term insecurity.
I daresay someone'll be along to tell me I'm wrong ...
@isam - I have to say I find it hard to shed tears for people taking advantage of rising house prices to move two stops down the tube to bigger houses and nicer parts of the world. The people left behind certainly do deserve sympathy. But they have only been left behind because others have gone. Are you saying that people are wrong to move out of areas and to aspire to better things because others are not able to take advantage of change in the way that they can?
I think that people don't like it where the place that they were brought up in, where their family has lived for generations, is changed in less than one generation into a place they don't recognise. It hasn't happened in my area yet, but I know plenty of people who have moved to Hornchurch from Dagenham, Becontree etc because they hate what has become of their old hometown. My original point was that only people that aren't from the area tend to have a rosy view of the new community,
I know you are a fan of the Jam, I would say "Saturdays Kids" springs to mind.
"These are the real creatures that time has forgot. Not given a thought"
Your point seemed to be that Stella Creasey was a liberal, metropolitan leftie from outside London who had absolutely no interest in the white working class of Walthamstow. I know plenty of people who have moved out of Camden and Islington, me included. As we were discussing yesterday they are both areas that have changed hugely in the space of a generation. No-one I know has moved out because of the changes. They have moved out because the places in which they lived suddenly became much more valuable and they were able to take advantage of that. My house, an hour fro London is worth around £500,000. In North London it would be worth around £3 million.
I would like to see Alex Salmond included in the best PM numbers even if there's no chance of him becoming PM.
Why would anybody non-Scottish think he would be a good British PM ? Presumably he would be biased to Scotland and therefore be a rubbish PM for anybody English ,Welsh or Irish. So I don't agree he should be put in
I think a fair few in the North would prefer an Edinburgh based PM. Perhaps Wales too. Salmond's campaign against the Westminster establishment has resonance.
A lot of the people who post on here just don't understand the concept of life beyond home counties.
I've recently mostly given up on Radio Scotland* GMS, Newsdrive and RS News, plus I'm having very serious thoughts about continuing buying the Scotsman and Herald every morning.
There is so much drivel coming from both sides of the debate, neither side is prepared to debate honestly and are only prepared to give stock answers which are mostly smears on the opposite side. Boring!
* No, I do not listen to the Sainted Robbie Shepherd, but, I would recommend "Out of Doors" 06:30 every Saturday, from outside in the car park of BBC Aberdeen in all weathers, Yep! Nuts, but normally very interesting and quite often, thought provoking. Listen from the comfort of a nice warm bed.
Comments
"Profile: An east London seat covering Waltamstow and Higham Hill. This is a multicultural working class suburb, largely built as a affordable housing for the working class at the beginning of the last century. In the past the white working class vote (and in 1987 a huge tax hike from a Labour council) made this a marginal seat, but demographic changes and a growing ethnic minority population mean this is now safely Labour.
The Labour selection has attracted some controversy from Labour activists. Neil Gerrard is to stand down and his replacement will be selected through an all women shortlist, which some have criticised as missing an opportunity to select a male black or asian candidate for a seat that has both large asian and afro-carribean communities."
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/walthamstow/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIOeM0IgG0
Was there enough fuel to reach Australia by such circuitous route?
I have lived in many different parts of England, and Europe, but still have the ability to empathise with those who haven't been able to do so.
That a prospective/former MP cannot do this is astonishing, but sadly typical
I do agree that post-independence Scotland will have to choose between the high tax, strong welfare systems favoured by the Nordic countries, or the smaller state, low tax regime favoured by Ireland. I think it is a shame that the SNP leadership will not address these fundamental issues, but I understand why they don't want to.
Unionists are getting ever more desperate.
But what was once a place where families lived for generations has been changed around them buy mass immigration, and you praise that as a good thing with no thought for the people who are left behind in a place they dont recognise anymore.
Typical imported fake Londoner
Whereas real people from areas affected feel like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKf8d4Y-NlM
I think he's the only man in the country that voted Lab in 1983 and Tory in 1997
If they are against you, then you will never prosper, and life will be a misery. It is much like working with the Cosa Nostra!
You'd think this wouldn't be a tough call.
Mr. Observer, I've never been to London. Been to Cardiff, though. And Beijing.
But also many are left behind, too poor to move or too old to be bothered in a place they don't recognise. I am not saying there aren't benefits to immigration for some, usually people that move into an area that has been subject to mass immigration because they are fans of that policy and its affects. I just acknowledge that there are big disadvantages too, usually affecting the poor and the old whose families have lived there for generations.
Yet anyone who acknowledges this, is pounced on for being racist, even when race isn't mentioned.
I would go as far as to say that I would have the same sympathy for the Asian communities in Whitechapel, West Ham, Tower Hamlets if the place they have called home for three generations is changed into a yuppie area by gentrification, and the high street that at the moment might as well be in Asia, is turned uinto a luvvie coffee/sushi bar area for City workers
But we have to keep the Mark Senior happy by pretending to take the polls seriously.
"How could any rational person in 1979 possibly contemplate voting Labour?"
Hope over experience. There's still a chance that mild mannered Ed will undress in a phone booth and re-emerge as Super-Ed, the hero of the hour. But somehow I doubt it. He's a career politician, and not a very good one. Ruthlessness isn't the same as courage.
Are you looking at the right feed?
https://mobile.twitter.com/thomasknox/tweets
KL to Perth is 2595 miles (according to Google, at least). But the plane went down over a thousand miles west of Perth.
KL to Darwin is 2272 miles, although this would mean it flying over Indonesia.
*None* of the possible scenarios makes sense to me. Despite this, I'm still favouring some combination of technical failures.
*For the avoidance of doubt, Edmund you're not insane, your're brilliantly perceptive.
Many years ago we owned a weekend cottage in Gloucestershire. One of our neighbours, probably in his fifties, had never visited London - a couple of hours away by car. Eventually he decided that he'd give it a go, so he drove on the M4 towards London. By Heston he decided that he'd seen enough, so he turned round at the next junction and came home.
a) political opponents
b) Tory backbenchers who think it unfair they were passed over for Minister for Paperclips in favour of yet another bloody Etonian
c) Tory backbenchers who think it is only Dave's school preventing 30 per cent poll leads
d) Michael Gove putting the boot into Boris
In other words, most of this is blue on blue.
20% agreed with you
i) the incumbent PM is always in the race, so perhaps there is a response bias. Of course the PM would make a better PM than someone who is not... er, the PM?
ii) better in what sense? Better for me or the country? Or just looks more like a PM?
iii) "Would" make the better PM (if only he could get his act together/wasn't lumbered with the loony Labour party/leading a cabinet of machiavellian ferrets/etc., etc.)
Lebo & Norpoth focus on the unambigous question. "Are you satisfied with the way X is doing his job as PM?"
On that measure Callaghan had just 36% (Gallup), which their model accurately calibrated as a losing score...
Obviously that doesn't mean that they've been following SeanT to luxury hotels round the world: they may have just moved fro Manchester to Nottingham. But communities where most people have always lived there are, I believe, becoming rare, not because of immigration but simply because people move around for work and relationship reasons.
Fox's point is true too, though - a lot of people see London as a big step to take: intimidatingly big, complex and notoriously expensive. I don't think his secretary would have responded in the same way if he'd said he was going to, say, Leeds.
M
Was there enough fuel to reach Australia by such circuitous route?
Morning Mr LP
I suspect that is not a factor in the reasoning of some of these people;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_961
If it did in fact go down west of Perth a direct routing would have just seen them make it?
Edit:
Or, as Mr Jessop postulates, Darwin
Can feel it in the waters :E
I am still surprised that people have not been down to London - not even on a day trip, a school trip, or on the way to somewhere else.
There followed much discussion about fuel capacity. Apparently the Kuala Lumpur to Beijing route would only have required the wing tanks of the B777-200 to be filled leaving the centre tanks available for discretionary use.
Apparently some airlines carry additional fuel for return journeys where the differential cost of refueling at destination airports justifies the added outbound load. Also, according to PPRuNe, some pilots have a secondary business going on where they buy addtional fuel on their Amex cards and resell it at high cost destinations.
All these rumours were however scotched when Malaysian Airlines belatedly confirmed that MH370 was only carrying sufficient fuel to reach Beijing plus the minimum mandatory overload required for safety reasons.
So that ruled out the Somalia theory!
Care to quote them? or are you making it up?
Many of my friends from that time - some living in traditional Labour heartlands - had never been. A couple had only been because they worked for the railway and had to work down there occasionally. Their only experience of the capital were the stations and the hostels.
Ladbrokes - Next UK GE - SNP seats
6.5+ 4/6
6.5- 6/5
Miliband announced his idea in September 2013.
SSE announced in October 2013 that they would raise their prices by 8.2% from 15 November.
SSE has now generously announced that they will keep these new higher prices until at least January 2016.
If you want Miliband to take credit for that you are welcome to it.
And for some reason he believes that reprising it now will be equally effective.
Nope.
"The Prime Minister is the champion of the price freeze"
Every week it always looks like a bird has shit on his hair.
By some Grecian 2000 man.
Used to be the old centre of Sherwood Forest (if you walk out in a straight line from Mansfield town centre you will be guaranteed to come across a Robin Hood or Maid Marion named pub within a mile)
Wheelgate adventure Park - which used to feature a highly dangerous real fishing boat (complete with sharp edges ,big drops and rotting wood) when it was called Wonderland until presumably a health and safety inspection gated it up. Its improved since then a lot but if you go on a midweek in school term it can resemble Neverland in its visitor to rides ratio
I know you are a fan of the Jam, I would say "Saturdays Kids" springs to mind.
"These are the real creatures that time has forgot.
Not given a thought"
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SATURDAY'S-KIDS-lyrics-The-Jam/19502181A21C5D4B482569760025E735
You could look at where UKIP are polling well now as an indicator of how people feel about the issue if you like. Or wonder why they were on 1% two years ago and are sometimes in the high teens now.
(Edit: the "that's [EdM playing bingo is] the closest he'll get to No.10" from Cam)
Repeat no matter what happens.
George Eaton@georgeeaton·1 min
That terrible bingo joke aside, strong session for Miliband that will settle some Labour nerves. #PMQs
Nigel Morris@NigelpMorris·2 mins
Felt like a Cameron win today in #pmqs
Rafael Behr@rafaelbehr·3 mins
Ed M not winning an argument there on the big issue that was supposed to prove he is winning the argument. Not great. #PMQs
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk 1m
Cameron's bingo joke far better than Miliband's by some distance #pmqs
Cameron - He (Miliband) only likes bingo because it's the only time he'll get close to number 10
Ouch and double ouch !!
At least we (Cons) only think you are all bonkers, but not actively evil.
(joke...!)
I'm guessing that the company has done deals on long-term energy prices with its suppliers, and has set the long-term price to its customers (us plebs) accordingly. The company has long-term security.
That is very different from Miliband's plan, where the price would be frozen at a level he decides regardless of the price obtainable by the energy companies, where the companies have long-term insecurity.
I daresay someone'll be along to tell me I'm wrong ...
There is so much drivel coming from both sides of the debate, neither side is prepared to debate honestly and are only prepared to give stock answers which are mostly smears on the opposite side. Boring!
* No, I do not listen to the Sainted Robbie Shepherd, but, I would recommend "Out of Doors" 06:30 every Saturday, from outside in the car park of BBC Aberdeen in all weathers, Yep! Nuts, but normally very interesting and quite often, thought provoking. Listen from the comfort of a nice warm bed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074hjr