Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Punters think Lab’s chances of winning most seats at the GE have improved – politicalbetting.com

2456711

Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,694

    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon banned?

    Can I propose that, each time Leon is banned, it's for twice as long as the previous ban?
    Why?
    Because he would find it educational?
    What's it got to do with you, though?
    Can't we let the site operators deal with how they run it, rather than us demand bans on other posters?
    @TwistedFireStopper . I think you are missing the point. @IanB2 was cracking a rather good joke. You need to see the previous thread. It made me laugh out loud.
    Ahhh, I'm just an occasional lurker, so miss lots.
    In that case, I withdraw my pompous rebuttal to Ian!
    It was actually quite a good joke
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481
    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    You're a military historian. How do you see the endgame.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,725

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    This feels like people in Europe trying to predict the US election; we do not have insight into the views of the majority of the Russian population, nor into those people at the heart of the Kremlin.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    That's not true.

    I've been suggesting the eventual collapse of Russia for years and I always said it was a long-term project that might take years.

    I said from the start that if the war was over rapidly it would be in Russia's favour but it was a longer-term conflict that would be favouring Ukraine.

    We're still in the "gradual at first" stage and I've never said imminent, however the signs are starting to mount that culmination is coming and I don't think they could last now another year or two.

    Getting honest data out of Russia is hard but from what it seems the fundamentals now are all starting to show the strains.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,083
    Tres said:

    kamski said:

    What about the stories that Republican members of Congress, with very few exceptions, are unwilling to criticise or vote against Trump because of fears for their/their families' personal safety?

    eg

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/27/republicans-trump-threats
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/trump-congress-political-violence?srsltid=AfmBOor7zKM0TOWhlUENK0X_bzDfzpKWrl7KfZWHZy7aAXITdICB0Vs6

    Romney already reported Republican Senators voting not to convict Trump 4 years ago out of this kind of fear.

    https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/romney-gop-members-feared-far-right-violence-ahead-key-votes-rcna105272

    same old GOP, always someone elses fault
    Here's a bit of that Vanity Fair article:

    "According to one source with direct knowledge of the events, North Carolina senator Thom Tillis told people that the FBI warned him about “credible death threats” when he was considering voting against Pete Hegseth’s nomination for defense secretary. Tillis ultimately provided the crucial 50th vote to confirm the former Fox & Friends host to lead the Pentagon. According to the source, Tillis has said that if people want to understand Trump, they should read the 2006 book Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work. (When asked for comment for this story, a spokesperson for Tillis said it was false that the senator had recommended the book in that capacity. The FBI said it had no comment.)"
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071

    I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

    Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

    • Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    • Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
    • Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
    What else is there, realistically?
    Rope a dope.

    Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".
    Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

    If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.
    I don't see why.

    Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

    The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,725
    MattW said:

    Man stabs police dog, and is hit by police car.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cevxd8dgmkjo

    (I'm interested to know why he wasn't tasered, which seems appropriate. This is Police Scotland, and I do not know their practice.)

    They may have tried tasers.

    From memory, Ben Ando's excellent book on police bravery has two stories where tasers failed: one was when they tackled a man high on drugs in a tower block corridor; either due to lack of space or the drugs the man had taken, the taser had no effect. In another, the man was wearing such thick clothing the tasers did not work.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,524

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,284
    Leon said:

    The champagne in Shanghai Airlines Business Class is exceptional

    I thought you’d developed an allergy to good champagne after too many freebies in the Maldives. Or was that some other bloke I read in the Speccie?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,158
    edited March 2
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    You're a military historian. How do you see the endgame.
    I don't see Russia being able to sustain the losses of men and material that it was suffering in the last four months of last year (40-50,000 casualties per month). The attacks have certainly slackened since the start of the year.

    Russia's economy is clearly deteriorating, but Putin has a vast apparatus of repression, to prevent revolt.

    We've also seen that Ukraine does not have the means to recapture the lost territories. So, I think at some stage, the war will peter out into a cold war/cold peace. Technically, the war will continue, but in reality, it will grind to a halt. To my mind, the European side of NATO has to ensure that Ukraine is in as strong a position as possible at that point, in order to hold onto the remaining 80% of the country, and assist in rebuilding the Ukrainian economy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    That's not true.

    I've been suggesting the eventual collapse of Russia for years and I always said it was a long-term project that might take years.

    I said from the start that if the war was over rapidly it would be in Russia's favour but it was a longer-term conflict that would be favouring Ukraine.

    We're still in the "gradual at first" stage and I've never said imminent, however the signs are starting to mount that culmination is coming and I don't think they could last now another year or two.

    Getting honest data out of Russia is hard but from what it seems the fundamentals now are all starting to show the strains.
    Okey dokey.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,196
    edited March 2

    Badenoch also did well on BBC.

    The Tories now need to put themselves firmly on the side of British interests and national and European defence. To Badenoch’s credit, she seems to have signposted that in her messaging since Friday.

    There will be debates along the way on how to achieve that goal and the policies for doing so. That is where the Tories should take the fight to Labour, not in the direction of travel. It also distinguishes them from Reform and they should go after Farage on this.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,999
    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    What is the minimum that could be sold to Putin as a win for Russia?

    Because without some sort of victory, Vlad seems likely to be taking a long walk through a high window pretty soon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,253
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    You're a military historian. How do you see the endgame.
    I don't see Russia being able to sustain the losses of men and material that it was suffering in the last four months of last year (40-50,000 casualties per month). The attacks have certainly slackened since the start of the year.

    Russia's economy is clearly deteriorating, but Putin has a vast apparatus of repression, to prevent revolt.

    We've also seen that Ukraine does not have the means to recapture the lost territories. So, I think at some stage, the war will peter out into a cold war/cold peace. To my mind, the European side of NATO has to ensure that Ukraine is in as strong a position as possible at that point, and assist in rebuilding the Ukrainian economy.
    Might the problem for Putin be not military defeat but conspiracy?

    He's old. Nobody lives forever. He saw off the Wagner revolt but it was a close run thing.

    The question then becomes if New Supreme Leader would be able, or willing, to end the war without territorial gains. What of Crimea?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,158

    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    What is the minimum that could be sold to Putin as a win for Russia?

    Because without some sort of victory, Vlad seems likely to be taking a long walk through a high window pretty soon.
    I'm sure he can sell capturing the land corridor as a victory, but it is far short of his actual war aims.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,284

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    I’m tending towards this more pessimistic view over time. But then I’m often wrong.

    Russia’s strategy for centuries has been to use its conquered territories to fight wars for it. They’re not alone there, after all we made much use of empire soldiers in the world wars. But they go further and as others have commented seem able to avoid any impact on Muscovites.

    This is the danger with a bigger land grab in Ukraine and an eventual annexation of Belarus. They’ll use Ukrainians and Belarusians to prosecute the next war, against Lithuania, say, for land access to Kaliningrad. Then they’ll have some Lithuanians they can throw into the fight with Latvia and Estonia as they prepare the ground for Poland, and so on.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    You're a military historian. How do you see the endgame.
    I don't see Russia being able to sustain the losses of men and material that it was suffering in the last four months of last year (40-50,000 casualties per month). The attacks have certainly slackened since the start of the year.

    Russia's economy is clearly deteriorating, but Putin has a vast apparatus of repression, to prevent revolt.

    We've also seen that Ukraine does not have the means to recapture the lost territories. So, I think at some stage, the war will peter out into a cold war/cold peace. Technically, the war will continue, but in reality, it will grind to a halt. To my mind, the European side of NATO has to ensure that Ukraine is in as strong a position as possible at that point, in order to hold onto the remaining 80% of the country, and assist in rebuilding the Ukrainian economy.
    Thanks. What does "grind to a halt" look like in terms of day by day, the nitty gritty to bring about the halt.
  • Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    What is the minimum that could be sold to Putin as a win for Russia?

    Because without some sort of victory, Vlad seems likely to be taking a long walk through a high window pretty soon.
    My point exactly. This war will end when there’s an agreement. It isn’t going to end without that and however unpopular it is, Ukraine is not going back to how it was before 2014. It just isn’t.

    I agree that I don’t want Trump negotiating it nor do I support anything he says. But I do also accept reality. I await the usual “you support Putin” replies.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,284

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,634

    I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

    Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

    • Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    • Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
    • Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
    What else is there, realistically?
    Rope a dope.

    Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".
    Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

    If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.
    I don't see why.

    Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

    The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.
    Giving them kit, and training, is the easier bit. Ukraine is being trained up on the German RCH-155s and will be getting them within weeks, before even the German army, where they're made. The problem is the US command and control, the software, the spy satellites, all the US infrastructure we rely upon to make our stuff work and to use it effectively. I have no idea how long and how much it would cost to set up a parallel European capability.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,643

    MattW said:

    Man stabs police dog, and is hit by police car.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cevxd8dgmkjo

    (I'm interested to know why he wasn't tasered, which seems appropriate. This is Police Scotland, and I do not know their practice.)

    They may have tried tasers.

    From memory, Ben Ando's excellent book on police bravery has two stories where tasers failed: one was when they tackled a man high on drugs in a tower block corridor; either due to lack of space or the drugs the man had taken, the taser had no effect. In another, the man was wearing such thick clothing the tasers did not work.
    Much easier to hit someone with a car than a taser.

    (I'm curious if this incident will pop up in the STATS19 data as a driver: pedestrian pavement collision...)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,524
    edited March 2

    Sean_F said:

    To my mind, Russia's biggest problems, in the war, are:

    (a) They have to keep attacking. Their opponents are defending, and constantly bleeding them.

    (b) They have a choice whether or not to fight. Ukraine does not.

    What is the minimum that could be sold to Putin as a win for Russia?

    Because without some sort of victory, Vlad seems likely to be taking a long walk through a high window pretty soon.
    20 per cent of Ukraine is a big prize, and that is what Putin has won if the conflict is frozen on current borders.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,634

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    Isn't it more likely that internal forces remove Putin before they get to the point of economic collapse?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,854
    edited March 2

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    The US could lift their sanctions any day and the Kremlin coffers start to refill. At that point, it falls on Europe to decide what it wants to do.
  • Graham Linehan is now reposting commentary on Ukraine from RFK.

    What on Earth has happened to this man.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,072

    People shouldn't be banned for being boring. It sets a terrible precedent.

    In advertising it's one of the few things you guarantee getting fired for
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,196

    I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

    Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

    • Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    • Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
    • Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
    What else is there, realistically?
    Rope a dope.

    Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".
    Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

    If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.
    I don't see why.

    Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

    The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.
    Russia is very good at projecting strength from a position of weakness. It has learned that trick from history. The Soviet Union’s power and strength became a mirage during the Brezhnev decline, but they were able to keep the house of cards standing for another decade.

    It will all look fine in Russia, until one day it isn’t.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    Isn't it more likely that internal forces remove Putin before they get to the point of economic collapse?
    Indeed, that's what I expect to happen, when they get close to but not quite at the point of collapse.

    The regime is so dictatorial they need to be close to that point though before people will be brave enough to wield the knife. Or, this being Russia, open the window.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071

    I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

    Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

    • Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    • Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
    • Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
    What else is there, realistically?
    Rope a dope.

    Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".
    Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

    If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.
    I don't see why.

    Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

    The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.
    Russia is very good at projecting strength from a position of weakness. It has learned that trick from history. The Soviet Union’s power and strength became a mirage during the Brezhnev decline, but they were able to keep the house of cards standing for another decade.

    It will all look fine in Russia, until one day it isn’t.
    Indeed. Going back to my original comment - gradually at first, then suddenly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,524

    Graham Linehan is now reposting commentary on Ukraine from RFK.

    What on Earth has happened to this man.

    Linehan was discombobulated by the whole trans/terf kerfuffle.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,284

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    Isn't it more likely that internal forces remove Putin before they get to the point of economic collapse?
    Indeed, that's what I expect to happen, when they get close to but not quite at the point of collapse.

    The regime is so dictatorial they need to be close to that point though before people will be brave enough to wield the knife. Or, this being Russia, open the window.
    I wonder how many assassination attempts or plots there have been against Putin since he came to power. There’s not been so much as a hint of anything getting close to success. There are presumably at least 1 or 2 Ukrainian moles in inner circle.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,643

    Graham Linehan is now reposting commentary on Ukraine from RFK.

    What on Earth has happened to this man.

    Twitter.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,284

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    The US could lift their sanctions any day and the Kremlin coffers start to refill. At that point, it falls on Europe to decide what it wants to do.
    US lifting sanctions would be an interesting thing to model. It would allow the fleet to sail again and free up banking and supply chain financing. It wouldn’t bring back European gas demand (or of it did, that would collapse demand for US LNG). And it would probably also lead to a fall in hydrocarbons prices.

    Quite a complex impact I think
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,233
    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
    The war will only end with the deposing or death of Putin, assuming the Russian soldiers can't be thrown out before.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,102
    edited March 2

    Graham Linehan is now reposting commentary on Ukraine from RFK.

    What on Earth has happened to this man.

    Linehan was discombobulated by the whole trans/terf kerfuffle.
    Yes the anti-trans rabbit hole is connected to a warren of alt-right nonsense. He's probably got lost in there.
  • https://x.com/oflynnsocial/status/1895836853980332115

    Another thing: I absolutely believe Putin is a threat to eastern Europe and maybe central Europe too. I back an increase in defence spending to help fend him off/deter him.
    But here's what infuriates me: we've been getting actually invaded by Islamists every day for the past six years. 150k+ unverified, bad-faith Channel gatecrashers so far, mainly fighting-age males.
    And no government has bothered to stop it despite it being a bigger threat to our security in Britain.

    The Reform fans find it so hard to actually criticise the dictator Putin. This is turning into a big problem for them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,801
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    The US could lift their sanctions any day and the Kremlin coffers start to refill. At that point, it falls on Europe to decide what it wants to do.
    US lifting sanctions would be an interesting thing to model. It would allow the fleet to sail again and free up banking and supply chain financing. It wouldn’t bring back European gas demand (or of it did, that would collapse demand for US LNG). And it would probably also lead to a fall in hydrocarbons prices.

    Quite a complex impact I think
    Whilst the fleet might sale, I'm not sure where it is sailing to. I am on a project that puts me on the inside loop on Chinese reactions to sanctions. If the US lifts sanctions but Europe doesn't, I am far from convinced the Chinese will resume purchases of Russian oil. India - harder to read.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,748
    kamski said:

    Tres said:

    kamski said:

    What about the stories that Republican members of Congress, with very few exceptions, are unwilling to criticise or vote against Trump because of fears for their/their families' personal safety?

    eg

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/27/republicans-trump-threats
    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/trump-congress-political-violence?srsltid=AfmBOor7zKM0TOWhlUENK0X_bzDfzpKWrl7KfZWHZy7aAXITdICB0Vs6

    Romney already reported Republican Senators voting not to convict Trump 4 years ago out of this kind of fear.

    https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/romney-gop-members-feared-far-right-violence-ahead-key-votes-rcna105272

    same old GOP, always someone elses fault
    Here's a bit of that Vanity Fair article:

    "According to one source with direct knowledge of the events, North Carolina senator Thom Tillis told people that the FBI warned him about “credible death threats” when he was considering voting against Pete Hegseth’s nomination for defense secretary. Tillis ultimately provided the crucial 50th vote to confirm the former Fox & Friends host to lead the Pentagon. According to the source, Tillis has said that if people want to understand Trump, they should read the 2006 book Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work. (When asked for comment for this story, a spokesperson for Tillis said it was false that the senator had recommended the book in that capacity. The FBI said it had no comment.)"
    Buck passing. Far too much to expect GOP senators to show some responsibility for their actions, 'a big boy told me to do it or he'll take my lunch money.'
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,503
    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
    The war will only end with the deposing or death of Putin, assuming the Russian soldiers can't be thrown out before.
    That's your call on this, is it. Death of Putin or it continues.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,968
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
    Be a good chappie and stop with the dog food jokes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
    Our poster from legendary Camelot keeps claiming genealogy winalot.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,233
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
    Just leaving your Markie?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon banned?

    The Vanilla AI add on has detected Leon repeatedly talking about AI in violation of the rules.

    AI has recommended a ban of 66 days.
    666 would be most appropriate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,503
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
    Be a good chappie and stop with the dog food jokes.
    Wilko.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    The collapse stopped on January 20th.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,853
    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    What actually seems to be happening is a two track process.

    Starmer is attempting to pursue continuation of the peace negotiations, but on a more realistic level by starting from the pov of Ukraine’s future security, rather than a carve up fait accompli agreed with Putin.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/mar/02/ukraine-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy-keir-starmer-donald-trump-us-europe-eu-russia-defence-latest-live-news
    … Starmer says he thinks Trump wants to see a lasting peace in Ukraine despite his rhetoric and attitude towards Zelenskyy. “Everybody agrees with that apart from Putin,” he told the BBC. By “lasting peace”, Starmer means a “US backstop”, along with “security guarantees” provided by European countries and a “strong Ukraine” armed with defensive capabilities to resist the Russian invasion.

    The security guarantee from the Americans is the subject of “intense” discussion, Starmer said.

    He explained:

    For me, the components of a lasting peace are a strong Ukraine to fight on, if necessary, to be in a position of strength; to negotiate a European element to security guarantees, and that’s why I’ve been forward-leaning on this about what we would do; and a US backstop.
    That’s the package, all three parts need to be in place, and that’s what I’m working hard to bring together.
    As the Guardian’s defence and security editor, Dan Sabbagh, notes, Starmer acknowledges that Trump has not committed to a US backstop security guarantee for a European force in Ukraine but says the US and UK are having continuing talks over it...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    Meanwhile Macron is arranging a meeting Thursday to try to set up a European defence alliance.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,266

    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.

    Except it wasn't Thursday - it was Friday when Zelenskyy was at the White House.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    Has anyone heard from our Nige ( not @Nigelb )?

    Due on Ferrari tomorrow morning, will he call in sick?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,266

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    The US could lift their sanctions any day and the Kremlin coffers start to refill. At that point, it falls on Europe to decide what it wants to do.
    US lifting sanctions would be an interesting thing to model. It would allow the fleet to sail again and free up banking and supply chain financing. It wouldn’t bring back European gas demand (or of it did, that would collapse demand for US LNG). And it would probably also lead to a fall in hydrocarbons prices.

    Quite a complex impact I think
    Whilst the fleet might sale, I'm not sure where it is sailing to. I am on a project that puts me on the inside loop on Chinese reactions to sanctions. If the US lifts sanctions but Europe doesn't, I am far from convinced the Chinese will resume purchases of Russian oil. India - harder to read.
    Siberia has an awful lot of natural resources - and China is the only country in a position to be able to extract them. But they also have no need to do so today so the longer Russia is weakened the better China's final end result.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    Trump says a lot of shit.
    Rarely does it correspond with what’s true.

    Meanwhile his VP shouts down the Ukrainian president, and accuses him of peddling propaganda when he talks of Russia atrocities.

    Minsk II didn’t “stop the killing”. This will be no different without a credible defence strategy for Ukraine, which Trump has already declared he wants no part of.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    eek said:

    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.

    Except it wasn't Thursday - it was Friday when Zelenskyy was at the White House.
    Some utter plum was round the Whitehouse offering Trump free holidays on Thursday!
  • Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,831
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon banned?

    Can I propose that, each time Leon is banned, it's for twice as long as the previous ban?
    That made me laugh out loud. Maybe the maths will then sink in.
    I have a chess board knee-deep in rice to prove that.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile Macron is arranging a meeting Thursday to try to set up a European defence alliance.

    Macron really is seeing himself as the titular leader of the Free World. Vive La France!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,634

    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon banned?

    Can I propose that, each time Leon is banned, it's for twice as long as the previous ban?
    That made me laugh out loud. Maybe the maths will then sink in.
    I have a chess board knee-deep in rice to prove that.
    You have very long legs
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,266
    edited March 2

    eek said:

    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.

    Except it wasn't Thursday - it was Friday when Zelenskyy was at the White House.
    Some utter plum was round the Whitehouse offering Trump free holidays on Thursday!
    Charles wrote the letter - he seems happy to suffer 2 days of painful company for the team..
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,196
    edited March 2

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    I pray we will never have to fight a war against Russia. And I don’t think we will have to, if we play our cards right:

    The way to stop that from happening is through unity and strength on the European continent. Equivocation suits Putin. It gives him the chance to gamble.

    We are putting ourselves in the strongest position if we use the next few years to rearm, and to put in place a strong European deterrent. If we spend the next few years equivocating, then a miscalculation leading to a wider conflagration becomes sadly more likely. But I am hopeful. And I don’t see that in our future.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,634

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
    The demographic deficit of fighting age men will take some time to recover, as well.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    But isn't that what Chamberlain thought he was doing at Munich? Hitler's assurance was not worth the paper it was written on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,801
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Jonathan said:

    Evolution teaches us if you back far enough you share a common ancestor with your dog. Fido’s great, great,…, great grandmother is your great, great,…, great grandmother.

    Food for thought.

    We all have the same pedigree, chum.
    That's right, pal.
    Be a good chappie and stop with the dog food jokes.
    So there's a dog food puns thread? I'll have a Butchers....
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,741
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Like people who endlessly call a stock market crash he may be right one day.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,634
    Without wishing to re-open the maths, there's some interesting stuff in that paper linked by kjh earlier, and another I was reading about Australian aboriginal genetics. In particular, it is striking how few incomers are needed to maintain the "we all share the same ancestors from three thousand years back" conclusion. In both North America and Australia, even a rate less than one incomer every century (over the Baring Straight to America, or down through Papua NG into Australia) is sufficient to maintain the admixing, such that if you go back 3,000 years, we all share the same ancestors as all native Americans.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    .
    IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Leon banned?

    Can I propose that, each time Leon is banned, it's for twice as long as the previous ban?
    That made me laugh out loud. Maybe the maths will then sink in.
    I have a chess board knee-deep in rice to prove that.
    You have very long legs
    Or a very big chessboard.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    edited March 2
    Taz said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Like people who endlessly call a stock market crash he may be right one day.
    I've never put a timescale on Russia's culmination.

    Indeed I've said all along we should prepare for this to take many years. Wars can take many, many years.

    Which makes mockery of "you've been saying that for years" rather absurd - yes, I've been consistent for years and so far the facts have borne out what I'm saying. It is pure dishonesty to suggest anyone has been saying Russia is going to collapse imminently, that was never said.

    There's a world of difference between imminently and eventually. Don't be so impatient. We need to be in this for the long haul.

    And if that is "one day" right, then it was always right. Since it was always saying this would eventually happen, so long as we stay the course.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481
    edited March 2
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    Trump says a lot of shit.
    Rarely does it correspond with what’s true.

    Meanwhile his VP shouts down the Ukrainian president, and accuses him of peddling propaganda when he talks of Russia atrocities.

    Minsk II didn’t “stop the killing”. This will be no different without a credible defence strategy for Ukraine, which Trump has already declared he wants no part of.
    So Trump has said he wants the war to end. You, presumably, don't. Talk me through the next 12-18 months with your plan.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,801
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I don’t.

    According to Russian relatives, there is zero sign of war weariness expressed as even vaguely anti-war sentiment. Even anti-Putinists still think the war must carry on until Russia “wins”.

    There’s no sign of the morale collapse that would be required for defeat.

    If Putin can keep supplying the troops from outside the Greater Russian population, and give them some kind of equipment, it will continue.
    Morale collapses much faster when the money stops flowing. When people can't afford bread or eggs, then morale can change rapidly.

    It isn't based on morale that I'm making my judgment. Russia is running out of men, materials and money. Those three determine the outcome of a long-term war far more than morale ever does.
    Ironically more Russians can now afford bread and eggs because of soldiers' wages and bonuses being sent back home to the poorer parts of the country.

    And in Moscow the city as opposed to the government, the only differences sanctions made is that some foreign shops closed. Muscovites are not called to the front line.

    As an aside, this is what led to so many intellectuals falling in love with Communism during the 1930s. Capitalism had failed at home; Europe was falling to fascism; but in Moscow, life was good thanks to communism and the fact that Western visitors were not allowed to visit the rest of Russia where people were starving.

    The Russian economy is not about to implode. Thanks to sanctions, there is not much need for foreign exchange, and once there is a ceasefire and sanctions are lifted, oil and gas sales will quickly refill the Kremlin's coffers.

    America will eventually broker a peace deal that leaves Russia with what it wants, and that will be sold as Putin's victory. Tragic but true.
    Russia is like Wile E Coyote having run off the cliff but still hanging in the air, the realisation that there's no ground underneath hasn't come yet until he looks down and then the inevitable happens.

    Yes soldiers are getting wages, and morale stays high as long as they can, however Russia has used up most of its liquid reserves that it has access to, in order to pay for those wages and is running a very hefty deficit. Even with that hefty deficit and liquid reserves that are running out, its still not being able to replace the materials it is losing, hence its desperate to raid reserves and get stuff from the North Koreans etc

    Eventually money and materials are going to run out - and what then?

    Giving in to a peace deal before that happens just lets them off the hook.
    The US could lift their sanctions any day and the Kremlin coffers start to refill. At that point, it falls on Europe to decide what it wants to do.
    US lifting sanctions would be an interesting thing to model. It would allow the fleet to sail again and free up banking and supply chain financing. It wouldn’t bring back European gas demand (or of it did, that would collapse demand for US LNG). And it would probably also lead to a fall in hydrocarbons prices.

    Quite a complex impact I think
    Whilst the fleet might sale, I'm not sure where it is sailing to. I am on a project that puts me on the inside loop on Chinese reactions to sanctions. If the US lifts sanctions but Europe doesn't, I am far from convinced the Chinese will resume purchases of Russian oil. India - harder to read.
    Siberia has an awful lot of natural resources - and China is the only country in a position to be able to extract them. But they also have no need to do so today so the longer Russia is weakened the better China's final end result.
    Agree with that.

    China plays the long game. When the Russian economy goes down the pan, they can bail them out - by buying Russian Manchuria off them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,889

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile Macron is arranging a meeting Thursday to try to set up a European defence alliance.

    Macron really is seeing himself as the titular leader of the Free World. Vive La France!
    You will shortly be receiving an invitation to a duel from Paul Mason’s seconds.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
    Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
    Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.
    Eventually, yes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    ...

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    But isn't that what Chamberlain thought he was doing at Munich? Hitler's assurance was not worth the paper it was written on.
    Chamberlain sought peace, but simultaneously prepared for war.

    Trump isn't fit to lick Chamberlain's boots.
    I suspect Trump is also planning for war. An Abrams tanks and Lightening IIs for Russian oil contra deal would be so "beautiful".
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,259
    edited March 2

    Nigelb said:

    Meanwhile Macron is arranging a meeting Thursday to try to set up a European defence alliance.

    Macron really is seeing himself as the titular leader of the Free World. Vive La France!
    You will shortly be receiving an invitation to a duel from Paul Mason’s seconds.
    Has Boris been invited to the events of the day?A big beast for the big calls.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,853
    eek said:

    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.

    Except it wasn't Thursday - it was Friday when Zelenskyy was at the White House.
    Seems like it was longer ago already
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,621
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    Trump says a lot of shit.
    Rarely does it correspond with what’s true.

    Meanwhile his VP shouts down the Ukrainian president, and accuses him of peddling propaganda when he talks of Russia atrocities.

    Minsk II didn’t “stop the killing”. This will be no different without a credible defence strategy for Ukraine, which Trump has already declared he wants no part of.
    So Trump has said he wants the war to end. You, presumably, don't. Talk me through the next 12-18 months with your plan.
    Have you not read my post upthread ?
    I've already answered that - and rather more importantly, it's what our government, and possibly the majority of Europe, are now pursuing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,699

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    He said that the expense was a long way behind stopping the killing. Great farmland though Ukraine no doubt has, it is bodies, said Trump, that are stopping the bullets.

    He says he wants to stop the killing as a primary aim. I have no doubt he also wants to go down in history as the Peacemaker President who touched the world with his hands and, lo, the world reacted. But he said he wanted to stop the killing.
    He has no interest in stopping the killing. It doesn't even enter into his mind that it matters if lots of Ukranians, Russians and anyone else dies. He wouldn't even care if lots of Americans died as long as it didn't affect his own prospects, wealth and ego.

    This is the lesson that some on here have not yet learnt. Maybe because they don't want to face it. Trump has no interest in helping or protecting Ukraine or Europe. His interests are purely transactional and we don't matter. All these questions about how or whether we will be able to defend against Russia or help Uraine are based on the erroneous assumption that there is a choice, that Trump will be persuaded to change his mind and help in our defence. He won't.

    Once you accept that you realise that it is not a quastion of whether we want to rearm and challenge Putin. It is simple fact that we have to. And the best way to ensure my son and daughter don't end up having to fight in Europe is to make sure Putin loses - or at least fails to succeed - in Ukraine.
    How could a thought enter something that doesn't exist?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,481
    edited March 2

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
    Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.
    Eventually, yes.
    And that is a legitimate view, if misguided in my mind. It means thousands more deaths of people that are not you or your family but so be it. Trump's is that he wants the killing to stop. With all the compromises that involves. Why is that view so reprehensible.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,233
    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
    The war will only end with the deposing or death of Putin, assuming the Russian soldiers can't be thrown out before.
    That's your call on this, is it. Death of Putin or it continues.
    Yes, he's a dictator.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,699

    eek said:

    This is by far the best analysis I have seen of Thursday’s utter horror show in the White House.

    Snyder identifies five specific failures - hospitality, decency, democracy, strategy and independence

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-failures-in-the-oval-office?publication_id=310897&post_id=158132584&isFreemail=true&r=8fn4q&triedRedirect=true

    This is all about Trump and the anti-democratic right. There is nothing for America in its current course.

    Except it wasn't Thursday - it was Friday when Zelenskyy was at the White House.
    Seems like it was longer ago already
    Back in the days when there were still people other than Leon and WillaimGlenn willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt.

    Since, TBF, nobody should have done that for four years and two months (less four days) that *should* have been quite some time ago.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,233

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
    The war will only end with the deposing or death of Putin, assuming the Russian soldiers can't be thrown out before.
    That's your call on this, is it. Death of Putin or it continues.
    Yes, he's a dictator.
    If the rumour from the states on three terms is correct, Trump is the same.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 23,071
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    I mean I've only seen the highlights but surely Trump is simply taking a side in one of the oldest and most difficult dilemmas. What is worth giving up to stop the killing.

    Why is dealing with that impossible question so reprehensible.

    We see it in aid all the time (enable/support the tyrants to get food to the citizens..)

    Yes, he’s decided that giving up Ukraine is worth it to stem the expense to the US.
    The democratically elected government of Ukraine - along with the opposition, judging by their public comments yesterday, disagree.

    Chuck into the mix Europe’s future security, which the US has apparently decided is no longer a matter for them, then a polite no thanks is in order.
    No skin in the game, no say.

    All that, of course, is predicated on Europe getting its shit together over the next few days and weeks.
    I would like to see Europe get its shit together in the next 24 hours.

    The billions the UK promised yesterday are a good start.

    Lets show the Americans we can help defeat Russia with or without them - but if its without them, they don't get a say in what happens afterwards.
    What jobs will guarantee exemption from being called up to fight in this proposed EU war against Russia?
    I'll get my lads writing their job applications out ASAP.
    Who said anything about the EU? Or war with Russia?

    Russia is a small country, it is smaller than Italy economically. It is not some mighty bear that we should be afraid of.

    Ukraine is able to defeat Russia with our backing, we have no reason or need to go to war, just continue to support Ukraine.
    Do you think what is happening now (what you want to continue with) is going to allow Ukraine to defeat Russia.
    Eventually, yes.
    And that is a legitimate view, if misguided in my mind. It means thousands more deaths of people that are not you or your family but so be it. Trump's is that he wants the killing to stop. With all the compromises that involves. Why is that view so reprehensible.
    Because sacrificing millions to live under an authoritarian dictatorship to stop thousands of willing people who want to fight that dictatorship (or are fighting on behalf of it) from dying is not an acceptable price worth paying.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,713
    IanB2 said:

    I don't understand the European Ukraine play. It seems that Russia will only end the war if they can claim a victory (the Donbas at a minimum, presumably) and that Ukraine will only end the war if they are defeated (or, a negotiated peace with cast iron Western-backed security guarantees - boots on the ground presumably via NATO or another structure).

    Therefore what are we playing at? It seems like the options are simple:

    • Let Russia defeat Ukraine.
    • Help Ukraine push Russia out of their borders.
    • Tell Russia that if they don't accept a negotiated settlement (probably less than the whole Donbas with western bases in Ukraine) then Europe/UK will use all their military might to achieve the above.
    What else is there, realistically?
    Rope a dope.

    Help Ukraine absorb Russia's attacks until Russia is tired and exhausted and collapses. Which looks like coming soon, which is why Russia's shills are getting increasingly shrill about the need for "peace".
    Yes but that relies upon American support and American sanctions.

    If Europe wants to do this alone, then I can't see any alternative to the above.
    I don't see why.

    Russia has an economy smaller than Italy's.

    The UK with Poland, Germany, other European allies, Canada and others absolutely can help Ukraine defeat Russia - even without America if need be. Rather with, but if need be without.
    Giving them kit, and training, is the easier bit. Ukraine is being trained up on the German RCH-155s and will be getting them within weeks, before even the German army, where they're made. The problem is the US command and control, the software, the spy satellites, all the US infrastructure we rely upon to make our stuff work and to use it effectively. I have no idea how long and how much it would cost to set up a parallel European capability.
    This guy who claims to be a somewhat independent Ukrainian military analyst has this to say on the effects of America removing its technical assistance

    https://bsky.app/profile/tatarigami.bsky.social/post/3limxuvthlc2h
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,699

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    The nature of warfare is changing very fast. Last year Ukraine produced more than 1.3m drones for its military to use, comfortably more than anyone else in the world. This year there will be considerably more. How much longer will the Russian manpower advantage even be relevant?

    The Russians, in contrast, have largely been dependent upon running down huge stocks of artillery and tanks together with imports paid for by capital reserves which are now exhausted.

    This war is not developing to Russia’s advantage, not at all. The balance is swinging in Ukraine’s favour but they still need financial help to keep their government running, the economy moving and the Russians at bay until the swing becomes more decisive. Hopefully they will get it today.

    It’s weird how much Trump has misjudged this. It’s almost as if they were getting their information from Russia.

    Well said.

    There is a reason Putin's shills are desperate for "peace" soon and it is because Russia is getting close to culmination.

    Europe needs to stand firm and back Ukraine.

    Trump was completely wrong to say Ukraine doesn't "hold any cards", it is Russia that is failing more than Ukraine. Russia's already raided its prisons and sent North Koreans in meatwaves to the front, they're running out of money and meat to send to the grinder.

    If Europe backs Ukraine fully, then even if Trump cuts America's support, Ukraine still should win this war. If Europe stands firm, I doubt Putin will make it to the end of Trump's term, which would be quite an irony and what a legacy for Trump to be the US POTUS who upended America's relationships and backed the wrong horse.
    There won’t be any sudden collapse. I expect the broken back nature of the Russian war effort to become even more pronounced.
    I expect Russia to collapse in two ways. Gradually at first, then suddenly.
    I misread that as you expect Russia to collapse in two days. Which I wouldn't not have expected from you.

    Still wishing the world did what you wanted it to do while ignoring facts on the ground.
    It isn't about wishes, the facts on the ground are the Russia is going bankrupt in men, materials and money.

    Hence the Hemingway reference that seems to have gone over your head.
    I am aware of the reference.

    You have been calling for the imminent collapse of Russia for three years and, then as now, I just don't see it.

    Russia is not collapsing in my view, any time soon. This war will go on and on.
    It might not go on and on if the US follows through with the Trump rhetoric.
    I take that point.

    What I was alluding to was if the current situation was maintained, I think the war would go on and on.

    I don’t really know what Harris planned to do beyond that?
    See it through the "on and on" stage until Russia runs out of men, money and materials to send into the meat grinder.

    When that happens, the war ends rapidly.
    I don’t think that is any time soon. I don’t think the war ends without a settlement.
    The war doesn’t end with a settlement either. It just goes into a pause before phase 3, like it did last time in 2014.
    The war will only end with the deposing or death of Putin, assuming the Russian soldiers can't be thrown out before.
    That's your call on this, is it. Death of Putin or it continues.
    Yes, he's a dictator.
    If the rumour from the states on three terms is correct, Trump is the same.
    More an obnoxious, giant Dickensian.
Sign In or Register to comment.