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By-election betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,738
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    We should look to Canada for an object lesson in how to tell Trump where to go. He caved on tariffs within hours.
    We should have backed our ally when we had the chance.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,254
    Imagine hopping in a time machine and telling Khrushchev that one day Russia will simply buy US support.

    You don't need Soviet allies. You don't need to win an ideological battle. You don't need to fight never mind win a war with the US. You simply need to offer them the spoils and carve up the World between the two of you. The US is that greedy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663

    Michael McFaul
    @McFaul
    ·
    3h
    Just shocking. Trump has switched sides. He now backs Putin. The American people do not. 80% don't trust Putin. I hope our elected representatives will represent the vast majority of the American people and stop this pro-dictatorship pivot.

    https://x.com/McFaul/status/1894063029517459621
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313
    Fishing said:



    I was just at the Ukrainian demonstration in Trafalgar Square that I posted about last night. A very nice atmosphere, simultaneously maudlin and festive, if that is possible. Everybody seemed very friendly. The Square was about three quarters full. No sense of hatred or bloodlust or anything, just sadness and disbelief that it's still going on after three dreadful years.

    At least enough people in this city still care to make a decent show of a demonstration, even on a dark night in February.

    I really hope we're not still here in another year, let alone three.

    In the meantime, as ever, Glory to Ukraine, a real nation of heroes if ever there was one.

    "At least enough people in this city still care to make a decent show"

    I'm sure I'm not alone in hating demonstrations. I'm pretty sure that the bulk of the London population supports Ukraine.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,328
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic, Dehenna Davison's father was killed by a punch to the head.

    It's only blind luck than means he's got 10 weeks rather than 10 years.

    If you speed or drive under the influence, it's only blind luck that you don't hit someone, but we still give out lighter sentences.
    Or usually no sentences since few DUIs are caught.
    Be grateful you don't live in the US. Drinking and driving is still (sadly) considered completely acceptable here.
    Surely that increases the value of data driven auto insurance companies?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,822
    Trump still lying ! Poor Macron having to stand there and listen to this garbage .
  • nico67 said:

    Trump still lying ! Poor Macron having to stand there and listen to this garbage .

    Earlier Trump dominated everything and Macron looked as if he wished he was somewhere else

    Indeed it was embarrassing for Macron
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,927
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663
    glw said:

    Imagine hopping in a time machine and telling Khrushchev that one day Russia will simply buy US support.

    You don't need Soviet allies. You don't need to win an ideological battle. You don't need to fight never mind win a war with the US. You simply need to offer them the spoils and carve up the World between the two of you. The US is that greedy.

    Didn't Khrushchev once say that he would not need to defeat the US because it would rot from within or something along those lines.

    Exactly what is happening unless the fight back starts now and gets real and that means the GOP.

    Just months away from becoming a total Putin-loving Trump monarchy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    On Taiwan Trump's US is moving towards formally recognising their independence, infuriating Beijing.

    So I suggest we leave the US to fight it out with China economically via tariffs and potentially over Taiwan while we focus on containing Russia and supporting Ukraine who Trump does not care about supporting now

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-support-for-taiwan-has-infuriated-beijing/
    Bravo Donny.
    Stopped clock and that but nonetheless.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I dont think @Big_G_NorthWales that europe is as weak as you think.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,604
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
    The only video I've seen was immediately after the incident, with Mike Amesbury saying something like "You won't have a go at me again, will ya?"
    I find it hard to imagine it would be an unprovoked attack.
    I'd read this report - pretty much what the BBC say, too. And the defence didn't offer any provocation in mitigation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/24/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-sentenced-assault
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406
    glw said:

    Imagine hopping in a time machine and telling Khrushchev that one day Russia will simply buy US support.

    You don't need Soviet allies. You don't need to win an ideological battle. You don't need to fight never mind win a war with the US. You simply need to offer them the spoils and carve up the World between the two of you. The US is that greedy.

    The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.
    Vladimir Ilich Lenin
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Demand that AP be at the press conference for a start
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    Macron at press conference says 'nobody wants to live in a world where the rule is of the strongest and borders mean nothing.'

    Trump looks like he thinks 'I do!'
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663
    Anton Gerashchenko
    @Gerashchenko_en
    Alexander Stubb
    @alexstubb
    speaking in Kyiv today:

    ▪️ It is not Russia who decides on EU membership, it is the European Union who does that.
    ▪️ It is not Russia that decides on NATO membership, it is the alliance itself.
    ▪️ It is not Russia that decides on what Ukraine has by its border, when, where and how.
    ▪️ It's not Russia that decides on European security arrangements. We already have a European security order and should stick to it.

    https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1894015032125514049
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,672
    edited February 24
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    On topic, Dehenna Davison's father was killed by a punch to the head.

    It's only blind luck than means he's got 10 weeks rather than 10 years.

    If you speed or drive under the influence, it's only blind luck that you don't hit someone, but we still give out lighter sentences.
    Or usually no sentences since few DUIs are caught.
    Be grateful you don't live in the US. Drinking and driving is still (sadly) considered completely acceptable here.
    Justin Timberlake got busted for DOI? :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234

    nico67 said:

    Trump still lying ! Poor Macron having to stand there and listen to this garbage .

    Earlier Trump dominated everything and Macron looked as if he wished he was somewhere else

    Indeed it was embarrassing for Macron
    Trump just dominated everything as he is a fat orange blob, Macron was as usual far more articulate
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234

    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    On Taiwan Trump's US is moving towards formally recognising their independence, infuriating Beijing.

    So I suggest we leave the US to fight it out with China economically via tariffs and potentially over Taiwan while we focus on containing Russia and supporting Ukraine who Trump does not care about supporting now

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-support-for-taiwan-has-infuriated-beijing/
    Trump is about to welcome Putin in from the cold and do a deal for Ukraine's minerals

    I expect to see Putin attending the G7 this year
    Not while the other 5 refuse
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    They put one of ours in hospital we put one of theirs in the morgue.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,328
    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    Agree with fighting back. With the caveat that the best way to do that may be to create our own structures and just cut the US out
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    Of all the leaders Macron always surprises me as seeming the least cowed by Trump. Right from 2016 onwards. He looks like the senior person in the room.

    Today’s press conference was an arresting example. Trump started lying about European aid to Ukraine. Macron grabbed Trump’s forearm, fact checked him like an exasperated school teacher, and Trump sat there looking lost.

    There’s no way I can imagine Starmer doing that.
    Yes Macron is the strongest French President of my lifetime internationally, Starmer however comes well behind Thatcher and Blair and even Cameron, Boris and Rishi in terms of strength on the international stage
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,098

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    Totally bizarre take.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    Of all the leaders Macron always surprises me as seeming the least cowed by Trump. Right from 2016 onwards. He looks like the senior person in the room.

    Today’s press conference was an arresting example. Trump started lying about European aid to Ukraine. Macron grabbed Trump’s forearm, fact checked him like an exasperated school teacher, and Trump sat there looking lost.

    There’s no way I can imagine Starmer doing that.
    Yes Macron is the strongest French President of my lifetime internationally, Starmer however comes well behind Thatcher and Blair and even Cameron, Boris and Rishi in terms of strength on the international stage
    To be fair we don't know that yet. Cometh the hour cometh the man.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,328

    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    On Taiwan Trump's US is moving towards formally recognising their independence, infuriating Beijing.

    So I suggest we leave the US to fight it out with China economically via tariffs and potentially over Taiwan while we focus on containing Russia and supporting Ukraine who Trump does not care about supporting now

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-support-for-taiwan-has-infuriated-beijing/
    Trump is about to welcome Putin in from the cold and do a deal for Ukraine's minerals

    I expect to see Putin attending the G7 this year
    Do you think Canada is going to invite him?

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,742

    nico67 said:

    Trump still lying ! Poor Macron having to stand there and listen to this garbage .

    Earlier Trump dominated everything and Macron looked as if he wished he was somewhere else

    Indeed it was embarrassing for Macron
    Next up Starmer. No doubt he will put Trump in his place and call out his lies, eh?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    Of all the leaders Macron always surprises me as seeming the least cowed by Trump. Right from 2016 onwards. He looks like the senior person in the room.

    Today’s press conference was an arresting example. Trump started lying about European aid to Ukraine. Macron grabbed Trump’s forearm, fact checked him like an exasperated school teacher, and Trump sat there looking lost.

    There’s no way I can imagine Starmer doing that.
    Yes Macron is the strongest French President of my lifetime internationally, Starmer however comes well behind Thatcher and Blair and even Cameron, Boris and Rishi in terms of strength on the international stage
    Hang on. The first two were in power for 10 years.
    Who judges this anyway
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    Thanks Tories and Brexit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663

    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406

    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    On Taiwan Trump's US is moving towards formally recognising their independence, infuriating Beijing.

    So I suggest we leave the US to fight it out with China economically via tariffs and potentially over Taiwan while we focus on containing Russia and supporting Ukraine who Trump does not care about supporting now

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-support-for-taiwan-has-infuriated-beijing/
    Trump is about to welcome Putin in from the cold and do a deal for Ukraine's minerals

    I expect to see Putin attending the G7 this year
    Do you think Canada is going to invite him?

    If I were them I wouldn't invite either Putin or Trump!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    edited February 24
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    Thanks Tories and Brexit.
    Only in part, Boris was still a big global player whatever you think of him and led early support for Ukraine.

    Starmer is just a wet blanket
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,211
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,328
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    On Taiwan Trump's US is moving towards formally recognising their independence, infuriating Beijing.

    So I suggest we leave the US to fight it out with China economically via tariffs and potentially over Taiwan while we focus on containing Russia and supporting Ukraine who Trump does not care about supporting now

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/trumps-support-for-taiwan-has-infuriated-beijing/
    Trump is about to welcome Putin in from the cold and do a deal for Ukraine's minerals

    I expect to see Putin attending the G7 this year
    Do you think Canada is going to invite him?

    If I were them I wouldn't invite either Putin or
    Trump!
    What tariff could you charge on the Beast?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Was that during the Miners Strike in the Eighties?

    Perhaps he is nostalgic for the 3 day week of the Seventies?

    The CND and Vietnam protests of the Sixties?

    Perhaps further back to the Battle of Cable Street or the General Strike?

    What an idiot he is!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    ...

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    Totally bizarre take.
    What do we even have national security for except to protect our right to govern ourselves?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,439
    Foxy said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Was that during the Miners Strike in the Eighties?

    Perhaps he is nostalgic for the 3 day week of the Seventies?

    The CND and Vietnam protests of the Sixties?

    Perhaps further back to the Battle of Cable Street or the General Strike?

    What an idiot he is!
    How old is he anyway?

    31 apparently. So he was growing up in the late 90s and noughties.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    In his lifetime - either he is 60 years old or he is a lying .....

    hint he isn't 60 years old and the his income sources are rather dubious..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    rcs1000 said:

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    It wasn't that long ago that certain posters were of the view that Trump becoming President would change nothing for Ukraine.
    We've moved on to alternative justifications.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,822
    Good grief ! Why is Starmer even bothering to turn up .
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    So you want Britain to join the very exclusive club of non ECHR countries in Europe. A list that consists of just Russia and Belarus?

  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,439

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Because Putin's been funding the likes of you.
    Twat!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Was that during the Miners Strike in the Eighties?

    Perhaps he is nostalgic for the 3 day week of the Seventies?

    The CND and Vietnam protests of the Sixties?

    Perhaps further back to the Battle of Cable Street or the General Strike?

    What an idiot he is!
    How old is he anyway?

    31 apparently. So he was growing up in the late 90s and noughties.
    Nostalgic for the halcyon days of New Labour then.
    Aren't we all?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    So you want Britain to join the very exclusive club of non ECHR countries in Europe. A list that consists of just Russia and Belarus?

    Yes.

    And I certainly don't want our ability to govern ourselves decided by anything so grotesquely unserious as a consideration of which 'club' we'll be in, or who might look askance over their horn-rimmed spectacles at the British PM next time he goes to a conference. We have been governed that way for far too long - as a consequence we sign up to every bit of ludicrous shit that ballsier countries wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and we have the most expensive energy in the known world, amongst plenty of other real world consequences.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406
    dixiedean said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Was that during the Miners Strike in the Eighties?

    Perhaps he is nostalgic for the 3 day week of the Seventies?

    The CND and Vietnam protests of the Sixties?

    Perhaps further back to the Battle of Cable Street or the General Strike?

    What an idiot he is!
    How old is he anyway?

    31 apparently. So he was growing up in the late 90s and noughties.
    Nostalgic for the halcyon days of New Labour then.
    Aren't we all?
    So it's the Iraq war protestshe is nostalgic for?
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,243
    Right now I feel like the UK, France, Germany, Poland Canada are led by people who will ultimately stand up for democracy and against the direction Trump is going.

    That is a good thing. We don't need to compare who is better amongst us, but be united against Putin and Trump.
  • TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    And let's remember. One of the reasons Starmer is in Downing Street is because he calmly, boringly took down a charismatic liar.

    "I'm not angry so much as disappointed" is what Starmer is, even when it's not the right tone to use. Here, it really is. What matters is whether SKS uses his superpower, and what concrete actions follow.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,927
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,283
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Whatever he does, however he responds, will have to be in line with his innate character. This may be the first time we (the general public) will be seeing what he's made of.
  • HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron doesn't have any more elections to fight.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron doesn't have any more elections to fight.
    Macron also leads a semi-independent country with its own independent nuclear deterrent. Starmer leads the 51st state but with less democratic rights.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    edited February 24
    Trumpski in his press conference says Putin is ready to do a deal

    Putin issues a statement "WTF is he talking about?"

    https://x.com/AndrewFeinberg/status/1894121977713189062
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,655
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron and Starmer are the leaders of the two remaining democratic and liberal nations with nuclear weapons. This matters more than charisma. Both appear committed to being part of an alliance of the willing, and Germany appears the same. All would go along with the USA if they can, and they should give the USA time to recover. Non USA NATO is a considerable force, and the Ukraine mess indicates that Russia may not be as capable in a military way as people had thought.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Lots of people are saying this, but Scholz is still Chancellor, and will be for a few weeks still.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    edited February 24

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill and Blair were A+
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    Rather off-topic, but this chat between Bill Gates and one of the Collison brothers (founders of Stripe) is really quite enjoyable :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eXyFokrfzY

    (On the back of Bill flogging his autobiography, but it's quite charming and interesting).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,141
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Lots of people are saying this, but Scholz is still Chancellor, and will be for a few weeks still.
    More than a few weeks if Wagenknecht can string out the legal challenge about overseas voters.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,257
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    Was that during the Miners Strike in the Eighties?

    Perhaps he is nostalgic for the 3 day week of the Seventies?

    The CND and Vietnam protests of the Sixties?

    Perhaps further back to the Battle of Cable Street or the General Strike?

    What an idiot he is!
    How old is he anyway?

    31 apparently. So he was growing up in the late 90s and noughties.
    Nostalgic for the halcyon days of New Labour then.
    Aren't we all?
    So it's the Iraq war protestshe is nostalgic for?
    Blair’s government was OK until he fell for that rubbish. Maybe if he’d handed over to Brown instead of Bush we’d all be in a better place.
    Although everyone would have had to find some way of getting rid of Saddam Hussain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron and Starmer are the leaders of the two remaining democratic and liberal nations with nuclear weapons. This matters more than charisma. Both appear committed to being part of an alliance of the willing, and Germany appears the same. All would go along with the USA if they can, and they should give the USA time to recover. Non USA NATO is a considerable force, and the Ukraine mess indicates that Russia may not be as capable in a military way as people had thought.
    In our own backyard of European security yes, focus on that not the wider world which is largely turning into a US v China contest
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    Two in the past century. What about Liz? She can, after a few attempts, hold a book up the right way to camera. Her own book that is. Not sure how she'd fare with one she wasn't so familiar with.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 770

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    So you want Britain to join the very exclusive club of non ECHR countries in Europe. A list that consists of just Russia and Belarus?

    Yes.

    And I certainly don't want our ability to govern ourselves decided by anything so grotesquely unserious as a consideration of which 'club' we'll be in, or who might look askance over their horn-rimmed spectacles at the British PM next time he goes to a conference. We have been governed that way for far too long - as a consequence we sign up to every bit of ludicrous shit that ballsier countries wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and we have the most expensive energy in the known world, amongst plenty of other real world consequences.
    In what sense is the ECHR undemocratic or hampers our ability to govern? It's an institution that every democratically elected government has chosen to retain membership of.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,655
    Returning to the by-election and the betting, where I don't know if Reform will win, but I think Labour not Reform are the possible value.

    A huge group of voters in July 2024 GE basically voted for whoever would beat the Tories. Job done, and the Tories have not yet recovered in the polls.

    There are now reasons for arguing that, though Reform are popular and have crept into thje lead, two issues don't help them in a by-election now. Firstly there have always been about 50% of voters who want them to lose; and in recent days the Reform/Farage connection with Trumpism has become potentially toxic.

    So it is not impossible, though way short of sure, that in any by-election there will be enough voters at the moment willing to vote for whoever can beat Reform. Just like GE 2024, but Reform instead of Tory. In Runcorn that is Labour.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    Why is it that the Right insists the UK is weak all of a sudden?
    I thought we'd taken back control?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    The UK was also a very different country when Churchill and even Thatcher were in power.

    You know, who 'respects us' and how big our 'clout' is is all such a pile of bollocks. When we realise all we need to do is be prosperous and successful and look after our own security, and people will see that and gravitate toward us in a way that they never did toward tits like Boris and Starmer pontificating on world issues when neither of them could Govern their way out of a paper bag.

    It's a big lesson we have to learn. The important bit in the making of a great country wasn't the Empire and its trappings, it was what came before.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,604


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    I checked when Mr Grimes was born. 1993.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,655
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron and Starmer are the leaders of the two remaining democratic and liberal nations with nuclear weapons. This matters more than charisma. Both appear committed to being part of an alliance of the willing, and Germany appears the same. All would go along with the USA if they can, and they should give the USA time to recover. Non USA NATO is a considerable force, and the Ukraine mess indicates that Russia may not be as capable in a military way as people had thought.
    In our own backyard of European security yes, focus on that not the wider world which is largely turning into a US v China contest
    Maybe true. But I don't think we ever thought NATO as such had a dog in that fight, or any Pacific issue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    A very weird take, and one I don’t think is true.
    No it’s not true. Starmer being a wet blanket may be. Let’s see how he does with Trump this week.

    He doesn’t need to go all Hugh Grant in Love Actually. But he can’t stand there and take Trump lies unchallenged. Macron has shown the way.

    Macron is far more articulate and charismatic than Starmer though
    Macron and Starmer are the leaders of the two remaining democratic and liberal nations with nuclear weapons. This matters more than charisma. Both appear committed to being part of an alliance of the willing, and Germany appears the same. All would go along with the USA if they can, and they should give the USA time to recover. Non USA NATO is a considerable force, and the Ukraine mess indicates that Russia may not be as capable in a military way as people had thought.
    In our own backyard of European security yes, focus on that not the wider world which is largely turning into a US v China contest
    Maybe true. But I don't think we ever thought NATO as such had a dog in that fight, or any Pacific issue.
    NATO was formed when the USSR was at its height and Moscow also controlled most of Eastern Europe, then it really was the main rival to the US. However after the Soviet Union broke up China overtook the USSR as the main US rival long ago and that is what the US, even Biden or Obama's US, cares about more than Europe although neither were pro Russian like Trump is
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    dixiedean said:

    Why is it that the Right insists the UK is weak all of a sudden?
    I thought we'd taken back control?

    No, Starmer is weak more than the UK
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,655
    Carnyx said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    I checked when Mr Grimes was born. 1993.
    1993? We was poor but we was 'appy. Three miles walk uphill to school, with no shoes; three miles uphill back. Mam would send us out for fish and a penn'oth and we ate like kings but only once a year because dad drank it all t'other days. We 'ad to make out own entertainment, and sang hymns round the harmonium.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,234
    edited February 24
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    Two in the past century. What about Liz? She can, after a few attempts, hold a book up the right way to camera. Her own book that is. Not sure how she'd fare with one she wasn't so familiar with.
    Truss is about the only UK PM on the world stage weaker than Starmer this century, who at best about ties with Theresa May
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155
    G

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Lots of people are saying this, but Scholz is still Chancellor, and will be for a few weeks still.
    More than a few weeks if Wagenknecht can string out the legal challenge about overseas voters.
    Wrong again. Life will carry on even if there is a legal challenge.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    Stereodog said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    So you want Britain to join the very exclusive club of non ECHR countries in Europe. A list that consists of just Russia and Belarus?

    Yes.

    And I certainly don't want our ability to govern ourselves decided by anything so grotesquely unserious as a consideration of which 'club' we'll be in, or who might look askance over their horn-rimmed spectacles at the British PM next time he goes to a conference. We have been governed that way for far too long - as a consequence we sign up to every bit of ludicrous shit that ballsier countries wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and we have the most expensive energy in the known world, amongst plenty of other real world consequences.
    In what sense is the ECHR undemocratic or hampers our ability to govern? It's an institution that every democratically elected government has chosen to retain membership of.
    It is undemocratic because it strikes down the decisions of elected governments with a public mandate without being democratically accountable itself. It is undemocratic because its living instrument doctrine enables the court to rule on any issue regardless of whether that issue is covered by the Convention. It hampers our ability to govern by providing a basis (not the basis, but a basis) for legal judgements that stray far into the province of Government policy. People have killed, raped and maimed having been allowed to remain in the UK because their deportations were blocked on the basis of the ECHR.

    Like Brexit, I'm not under any illusion that leaving it will flick a switch and suddenly truth and justice will rush in like a flood, but it is a key prerequisite for recovering our democracy.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155
    DavidL said:

    Honestly, there is abject ignorance and then there is GB News: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-german-leader-heralds-new-era-in-europe-as-merkel-s-party-suffers-historic-defeat/ar-AA1zEnM4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=4a5d93b90ae3472fbbb5e711462b0893&ei=29

    Merkel's party apparently suffered an historic defeat in the election won by CDU/CSU. Be interesting to know which party they thought she was in. This is embarrassing stuff.

    Oh God you made me go and look at their website. It is really incredibly bad, full of simple factual errors, and everything reads as if it was written by primary school children (and not very bright ones).
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    edited February 24
    Carnyx said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    I checked when Mr Grimes was born. 1993.
    He's even younger than actual 'Grimes' (aka ex-Mrs-Musk) who was born in 1988 :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimes

    "She is of French Canadian (including Québécois), Ukrainian, and Italian descent. Her grandmother was from Ukraine and immigrated to Canada."

    Now that I read her bio - I'm viewing the current US Trump/Musk tantrums in a slightly different light.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,766
    edited February 24
    I would never have expected the United States of America to line up with North Korea to vote against essentially every liberal democracy

    This is not business as usual, despite claims on here that it is.


  • Carnyx said:


    Darren Grimes

    @darrengrimes_
    ·
    8h
    Back then we didn’t have much. Life was hard, work was dangerous and times were tough. But my God at least we had each other — the country was united. In my lifetime that has been thoroughly lost.

    https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1893989526697111668



    Utterly deluded nostalgia.

    Reform in a nutshell.

    I checked when Mr Grimes was born. 1993.
    He looks about 12 years old :lol:
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    kamski said:

    DavidL said:

    Honestly, there is abject ignorance and then there is GB News: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-german-leader-heralds-new-era-in-europe-as-merkel-s-party-suffers-historic-defeat/ar-AA1zEnM4?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=4a5d93b90ae3472fbbb5e711462b0893&ei=29

    Merkel's party apparently suffered an historic defeat in the election won by CDU/CSU. Be interesting to know which party they thought she was in. This is embarrassing stuff.

    Oh God you made me go and look at their website. It is really incredibly bad, full of simple factual errors, and everything reads as if it was written by primary school children (and not very bright ones).
    "Hi ChatGPT! Can you write me an article about how Russia is amazing and everything that's wrong with the UK is the fault of the new 'Leftist' government? Thanks!"
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    HYUFD said:

    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    Two in the past century. What about Liz? She can, after a few attempts, hold a book up the right way to camera. Her own book that is. Not sure how she'd fare with one she wasn't so familiar with.
    Truss is about the only UK PM on the world stage weaker than Starmer this century, who at best about ties with Theresa May
    She was pretty bad. Who could forget that awful trip to Moscow with the Thatcher hat?

    Shame she never grew into the role - as everyone here knows, I think her reforms would have worked, and with that recovery, more respect would have accrued.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    HYUFD said:

    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.
    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    Two in the past century. What about Liz? She can, after a few attempts, hold a book up the right way to camera. Her own book that is. Not sure how she'd fare with one she wasn't so familiar with.
    Truss is about the only UK PM on the world stage weaker than Starmer this century, who at best about ties with Theresa May
    Based on that, I'm putting you down as thinking of Starmer as an uptick then?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    @aterkel

    NEW — DOGE will use AI to assess the responses from federal workers who were told to justify their jobs via email

    https://x.com/aterkel/status/1894128905339928916
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    .
    FF43 said:

    I would never have expected the United States of America to line up with North Korea to vote against essentially every liberal democracy

    This is not business as usual, despite claims on here that it is.


    Vlad owns me ?

    "I don't want to explain it now, but it's sort of self evident I think," President Trump says in the Oval Office when asked about why the U.S. joined Russia to vote in voting against a UN resolution condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine.
    https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1894084455427432642


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,318
    As an aside to the Trump fest, it seems the tide might just be turning on how the authorities talk about terrorism/not terrorism events in future. And the comments of many on here about how saying ‘it’s not terrorism’ as a default and refusing to say anything more is fuelling the rumour mill about such events. Of course they have to take care not to jeopardise trials but sometimes information needs to come out.
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg1w29n0l7o
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,482
    Scott_xP said:

    @aterkel

    NEW — DOGE will use AI to assess the responses from federal workers who were told to justify their jobs via email

    https://x.com/aterkel/status/1894128905339928916

    I wonder who's sub-par 'AI' they'll use, and I wonder what the markup will be.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,897

    Stereodog said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    At Reform conference Farage confirms Reform will withdraw the UK from the ECHR if it wins the next GE, in contrast to Labour, the LDs and Badenoch's Tories.

    Reform will also bring a private prosecution against Reynolds over his CV 'lies'

    I think there are far more important issues at present
    There are few more important issues than the ECHR. It is a key pillar in a system that undermines democratic Government. That is far more important, I'm sorry to say, than what happens in Ukraine, just as for Ukraine there are far more important issues than what happens in the UK.
    So you want Britain to join the very exclusive club of non ECHR countries in Europe. A list that consists of just Russia and Belarus?

    Yes.

    And I certainly don't want our ability to govern ourselves decided by anything so grotesquely unserious as a consideration of which 'club' we'll be in, or who might look askance over their horn-rimmed spectacles at the British PM next time he goes to a conference. We have been governed that way for far too long - as a consequence we sign up to every bit of ludicrous shit that ballsier countries wouldn't touch with a barge pole, and we have the most expensive energy in the known world, amongst plenty of other real world consequences.
    In what sense is the ECHR undemocratic or hampers our ability to govern? It's an institution that every democratically elected government has chosen to retain membership of.
    It is undemocratic because it strikes down the decisions of elected governments with a public mandate without being democratically accountable itself. It is undemocratic because its living instrument doctrine enables the court to rule on any issue regardless of whether that issue is covered by the Convention. It hampers our ability to govern by providing a basis (not the basis, but a basis) for legal judgements that stray far into the province of Government policy. People have killed, raped and maimed having been allowed to remain in the UK because their deportations were blocked on the basis of the ECHR.

    Like Brexit, I'm not under any illusion that leaving it will flick a switch and suddenly truth and justice will rush in like a flood, but it is a key prerequisite for recovering our democracy.
    As usual you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

    The Human Rights Act (an act of Parliament) was passed by a sovereign Parliament and can be repealed by a sovereign Parliament. That Act is the primary thing that gives the ECHR force of law in the United Kingdom and can be repealed by a simple majority in Parliament. Your obsession with the ECHR being the cause of all our ills is just delusion.

    The only immutable quality of our constitution is that Parliament is sovereign and no Parliament can bind its successors. That hasn't been changed by Blair or Brown or any of your bogeymen. Read a book rather than Twitter.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,328
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    James Matthews of Sky reporting on Trump Macron meeting says it is all about change, radical change, change that is happening too quickly for Macron inside that meeting and Starmer when he comes here on Thursday, Europe and the world more broadly

    Matthews addresses the reality that so many are really struggling to comprehend

    When faced with rapid change that is bad - and Trump pulling support from Ukraine, threatening to annex Greenland and Panama and throwing around the threat of blanket tariffs are indeed bad - you can either go with it, or you can resist and fight back. Or you stand like a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quite a lot of people seem to think that the only option is to get with the programme. If they don’t, they are either in denial or have TDS. No. Standing like a rabbit in the headlights isn’t a good idea, but fighting back absolutely is.
    You can only fight back if you have strength and at present Europe has never looked weaker and that is worrying

    Indeed Trump affirmed his so called reciprocal tariffs on Europe with Macron beside him

    A lot of hard thinking is needed across Europe and the ROW, but it really does look as if Trump is welcoming Putin back into the world through the lens of his business interests and not geo political stability with untold consequences

    We are in a very scary place and it is not going to become less scary anytime soon
    Merz actually looked strong with his win last night, certainly more so than Scholz has, as does Macron who rang rings around Trump at their interview today. Both focused on developing European military forces and continuing to fund Ukraine. Starmer is a wet blanket but then Trump just treats the UK as a pet now, his main rivals are the EU and China, his main allies Israel, Russia and Argentina.

    Trump's US is therefore heading for a tariff war with China as well as the EU, it might be able to win a trade war against one of the other top 3 global economies but both?
    I think Starmer has a big call to make. Whether, in the face of Trump's perfidy, to continue to try to be a "bridge" or try another approach.

    I can't help feeling that a tough, even bloody-minded, united stance by UK, France, Germany and Canada might be a better option. The Canadians hate him anyway. We now have a new more decisive German chancellor. Macron is no pushover and the French, anyhow, don't do fealty to the Americans. Escalate. Swagger. Face up to him. Trump is a bully - return the favour.
    Whatever he decides, Starmer will be trailing along behind Trump or Macron, Merz and even Trudeau or Carney.

    We are now largely also rans in the top tier of global politics
    No. The UK remains a respected player, if it wants to. Some, for sure, is to do with history and culture, but also military heft (even now), G7 economy, and, of course, London remains a truly world city. Plus an appealing tendency to understatement. All adds up to prestige and influence.

    The UK does but Starmer is a B- at best leader of it, whereas in the past a few PMs like Thatcher and Churchill were A+
    Two in the past century. What about Liz? She can, after a few attempts, hold a book up the right way to camera. Her own book that is. Not sure how she'd fare with one she wasn't so familiar with.
    About 15% of that century lopping off Churchill’s do over and the last couple of years of thatcher’s regime when she went batshit
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155
    Nigelb said:

    .

    FF43 said:

    I would never have expected the United States of America to line up with North Korea to vote against essentially every liberal democracy

    This is not business as usual, despite claims on here that it is.


    Vlad owns me ?

    "I don't want to explain it now, but it's sort of self evident I think," President Trump says in the Oval Office when asked about why the U.S. joined Russia to vote in voting against a UN resolution condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine.
    https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1894084455427432642


    Actually what did he mean? Or he just didn't know so had to bullshit?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    FF43 said:

    I would never have expected the United States of America to line up with North Korea to vote against essentially every liberal democracy

    This is not business as usual, despite claims on here that it is.


    Vlad owns me ?

    "I don't want to explain it now, but it's sort of self evident I think," President Trump says in the Oval Office when asked about why the U.S. joined Russia to vote in voting against a UN resolution condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine.
    https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1894084455427432642

    Actually what did he mean? Or he just didn't know so had to bullshit?
    I'm not even going to try to guess.

    But notable that he's now talking about "tens of billions", rather than $350bn.

    Also, this:
    British Prime Minister Starmer:

    🇬🇧 Britain to send $5.6 billion in military aid to Ukraine.

    🔹 “We are prepared to deploy forces in Ukraine alongside our European allies. Trump has created an opportunity.”

    https://x.com/PolymarketIntel/status/1893996910584778771

    Make of that what you will.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    Probably the biggest hope for Ukraine is that Putin overplays his hand, and thus ends up pissing Trump off.

    If he does, I could see a shameless volte-face.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,155
    FF43 said:

    I would never have expected the United States of America to line up with North Korea to vote against essentially every liberal democracy

    This is not business as usual, despite claims on here that it is.


    tbf the USA has a long history of being almost on its own on various issues, and not caring about the company it finds itself keeping there.

    It also has a long history of flakiness with treaties it has actually signed. The US signed hundreds of treaties with Native American nations in the first hundred years of its existence. Many of them weren't honoured. And many of the ones that were, were only signed under coercion or blackmail by the US.
This discussion has been closed.