Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

By-election betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,358
edited March 8 in General
By-election betting – politicalbetting.com

The dynamics of the now inevitable by-election: low turn out, national government unpopular, disgraced former MP and Reform already 2nd mean – despite the big Labour majority – Reform i think would be disappointed not to win given their current polling and becomes a test for them too.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    edited February 24
    Well.

    How does this affect the predictions competition ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,197
    Also second.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,816
    But not third.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,902
    Runcorn & Helsby is the 49th safest Labour seat out of 411.

    https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/defence/labour
  • Labour hold. Peak Reform is this year.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    On Amiable Amesbury, the Judge could be a relation of Miss Snuffy:

    The sentence was met with apparent shock in the courtroom. Richard Derby, representing Amesbury, asked the judge: “Is that an immediate sentence?” The judge nodded, replied “yes” and left the courtroom.

    Derby then requested the judge come back into court as he wished to make an application for bail for Amesbury, pending an appeal against his sentence. Ikram returned to court, sat down, paused briefly and said: “Application refused.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/24/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-sentenced-assault
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    edited February 24
    Shark-Infested Custard news:

    The trial of Jason Zadrozny, leader of Ashfield District Council, has been delayed until 2026. No reason given.

    The trial was scheduled to take around four to six weeks and was moved from Nottingham to Northampton following a request from his solicitor.

    However the court confirmed on Thursday, February 20, the trial date has been pushed back to August 24, 2026.

    No reason was given for the 18-month delay.


    https://www.chad.co.uk/news/people/ashfield-district-council-leader-jason-zadroznys-trial-delayed-until-2026-4999844
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    edited February 24
    theakes said:

    The MP for Runcorn is apparently going to Appeal the sentence. If it becomes non custodial and a Community sentence then the Recall procedure will not immediately apply.
    Over to the Parliamentary Commissioner/Watchdog and the result of their investigation could take a few weeks before any Recall process started.
    In this sort of scenario it could be June even July before a by election.

    Reform may struggle a bit at the Locals in May, they may not have the resources to make widespread gains, their recent local by election performance suggests this would be the case.
    Quite likely Lib Dems will make the most gains and seize some temporary headlines. That could boost their Runcorn performance.
    Equally the Conservatives will not want Reform charging forward and can be expected to campaign hard.
    Reform may be disappointed.

    There are two other potential by elections of course Gorton and Burnley. The latter has a heavy University electorate which should boost the Greens whilst Burnley is a major Lib Dem target seat and we all know what happens to most of those, they win them.

    Reform's recent by-election performance suggests national polling is pretty much ballpark right. They're not doing badly, particularly when you consider that they'll have minimal campaign data and other parties place a higher priority on local by-elections: there will be a structural bias in the results coming from factors like that.

    Overall, Reform have made 12 gains out of 281 seats contested since the last May round, which isn't very many. However, there's been an acceleration in their performance (unsurprisingly given the polls). Between May-Aug, they gained 1 seat out of the 91 contested. In Sept-Nov, they won 5 out of 153. Since the beginning of December, they've won 6 out of 37 (presumably the much lower number of contests is a consequence of them not being triggered over Christmas / New Year at anything like the same rate).

    In a normal May election round, parties won't (can't) throw the same energy, money or paper at each seat as in a by-election, so results will trend more back to national polling and underlying party resource. In many seats, there'll be precious little campaigning at all. That will suit Reform. I'd expect them to make a proportionately large number of gains but this won't produce dramatic figures because so few seats are up
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    MattW said:

    Shark-Infested Custard news:

    The trial of Jason Zadrozny, leader of Ashfield District Council, has been delayed until 2026. No reason given.

    The trial was scheduled to take around four to six weeks and was moved from Nottingham to Northampton following a request from his solicitor.

    However the court confirmed on Thursday, February 20, the trial date has been pushed back to August 24, 2026.

    No reason was given for the 18-month delay.


    https://www.chad.co.uk/news/people/ashfield-district-council-leader-jason-zadroznys-trial-delayed-until-2026-4999844

    The reason will be the usual one - court isn’t available at the moment and the next available court for a trial of the expected length is August 2026.

    Anyone surprised about this hasn’t paid attention to the complete lack of money spent on our criminal justice system since 2010.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,632
    Labour is massive value here.
    I said earlier: Reform will have been chomping at the bit for a seat *like* this to come up – but just not specifically this seat. The Runcorn bit is too Scouse to swing too far from Labour; the rest of the seat is too genteel to swing too far towards Reform.
    And the current news cycle isn’t massively favourable to Reform. Reform do well when immigration is in the spotlight, but not when Ukraine is in the spotlight. Of course, the news cycle might be quite different when the BE comes around.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,738
    edited February 24
    MattW said:

    On Amiable Amesbury, the Judge could be a relation of Miss Snuffy:

    The sentence was met with apparent shock in the courtroom. Richard Derby, representing Amesbury, asked the judge: “Is that an immediate sentence?” The judge nodded, replied “yes” and left the courtroom.

    Derby then requested the judge come back into court as he wished to make an application for bail for Amesbury, pending an appeal against his sentence. Ikram returned to court, sat down, paused briefly and said: “Application refused.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/24/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-sentenced-assault

    It does seem extraordinary, particularly compared with my narrow experience of sentencing of traffic offending in Scotland. I can think of numerous cases where, to my mind, the behaviour was much worse than this and they basically got away with it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    Shark-Infested Custard news:

    The trial of Jason Zadrozny, leader of Ashfield District Council, has been delayed until 2026. No reason given.

    The trial was scheduled to take around four to six weeks and was moved from Nottingham to Northampton following a request from his solicitor.

    However the court confirmed on Thursday, February 20, the trial date has been pushed back to August 24, 2026.

    No reason was given for the 18-month delay.


    https://www.chad.co.uk/news/people/ashfield-district-council-leader-jason-zadroznys-trial-delayed-until-2026-4999844

    The reason will be the usual one - court isn’t available at the moment and the next available court for a trial of the expected length is August 2026.

    Anyone surprised about this hasn’t paid attention to the complete lack of money spent on our criminal justice system since 2010.
    It's already been delayed once - it was scheduled for before the General Election.

    TBF it is estimated at 4-6 weeks of Crown Court time.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054
    FPT...
    MattW said:

    theakes said:

    The MP for Runcorn is apparently going to Appeal the sentence. If it becomes non custodial and a Community sentence then the Recall procedure will not immediately apply.
    Over to the Parliamentary Commissioner/Watchdog and the result of their investigation could take a few weeks before any Recall process started.
    In this sort of scenario it could be June even July before a by election.

    Reform may struggle a bit at the Locals in May, they may not have the resources to make widespread gains, their recent local by election performance suggests this would be the case.
    Quite likely Lib Dems will make the most gains and seize some temporary headlines. That could boost their Runcorn performance.
    Equally the Conservatives will not want Reform charging forward and can be expected to campaign hard.
    Reform may be disappointed.

    There are two other potential by elections of course Gorton and Burnley. The latter has a heavy University electorate which should boost the Greens whilst Burnley is a major Lib Dem target seat and we all know what happens to most of those, they win them.

    That's actually quite an exemplary sentence it seems to me. Assault by Beating - rather than say Assault Occasioning ABH - is a low level charge for multiple punches to the head imo. Perhaps ir was "I'll plead guilty to the lesser charge".

    If I understand my recall procedures correctly, if he gets it down to suspended or a fine, then the only way a recall petition could happen is if there was also an enquiry by the Commons Committee on Standards, followed by a 14 day or more suspension,

    https://erskinemay.parliament.uk/section/4912/recall-of-mps/

    No. A suspended sentence still counts as a custodial sentence and triggers a petition.

    I think it unlikely he'll get the sentence reduced to less than a suspended sentence.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,835
    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,835
    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    As an aside, was Runcorn and Helsby the only constituency in the UK where both the Liberal Party* and the SDP both stood?

    * Yes, the Liberal Party. It still exists.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,188
    edited February 24
    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    I wish the trial of Nathan Gill would take place during the by-election.

    I am going to ask the Attorney General to allow the trial to be televised.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c241n65qz9do
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    Except i can see Labour voters coming out to avoid Reform winning - so I don’t see the Labour vote cratering that much,

    I would be tempted by Labour at anything above 3/2
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,257
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    As an aside, was Runcorn and Helsby the only constituency in the UK where both the Liberal Party* and the SDP both stood?

    * Yes, the Liberal Party. It still exists.
    There are some Liberal, as such, councillors about. Primarily in Yorkshire IIRC.
  • rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    I don't think 1/2 is good odds. They are probably favourites, but not heavy ones.

    Reasons:
    1. Just under 35% is not an easy majority to overturn.
    2. Badenoch's Tories need to fight hard as a RefUK win is, if anything, worse news for her than for Starmer.
    3. There is a non-trivial chance of the RefUK candidate being a dud or worse.

    Evens is good odds. 1/2 isn't.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    As an aside, was Runcorn and Helsby the only constituency in the UK where both the Liberal Party* and the SDP both stood?

    * Yes, the Liberal Party. It still exists.
    It would be nice if they displaced the LDs.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,111
    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    While I can certainly see that happening, I think there's too much uncertainty around when the election might be and what the news narrative might be at the time. Personally, I think the bookies are pretty much on the mark here.
  • rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    If you take the evidence of the locals Labour have experienced some very bad results and this is an opportunity for Reform

    I think you are correct in your assumptions and though I would vote conservative I do expect some tactical voting to defeat the Labour candidate
  • FYI - Something has come up at work and I am going to be rather busy for most of the week.

    Guest threads will be even more appreciated, hint hint, otherwise I may have to do threads on AV and Scottish independence.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,047

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    While I can certainly see that happening, I think there's too much uncertainty around when the election might be and what the news narrative might be at the time. Personally, I think the bookies are pretty much on the mark here.
    Yes, I'm not convinced by it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,835

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    I don't think 1/2 is good odds. They are probably favourites, but not heavy ones.

    Reasons:
    1. Just under 35% is not an easy majority to overturn.
    2. Badenoch's Tories need to fight hard as a RefUK win is, if anything, worse news for her than for Starmer.
    3. There is a non-trivial chance of the RefUK candidate being a dud or worse.

    Evens is good odds. 1/2 isn't.
    Keir Starmer is as popular as Liz Truss was at her nadir. In those scenarios, your voters don't turn up.

    And while I appreciate that Kemi wants a win, the Conservatives have never had a particularly impressive byelection machine.

    Your third point is a good one, mind: there's a fair chance that they nominate a nutter.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 550
    edited February 24
    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    Having worked in the area, albeit a few years ago, it's a solid 'working class' area. League rather than Union. Quite a community spirit especially if they feel they are being taken advantage of. Not sure Labour reflects their views anymore and if a metropolitan Labour candidate is parachuted in, the vote collapse will happen.

    Too early for me to take a position but it would be Reform IMHO.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    Black Belt Barrister exploring whether the Amesbury sentence is ... two tier justice.

    (I'm not listening to this one.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2LVaEkUgxM
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,902
    edited February 24
    FPT
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Amesbury gets 10 week jail sentence, so as it is less than a year he can still technically remain an MP for now but a recall petition is likely as he received a custodial sentence

    The recall petition would be pretty sure to pass so depends if he does the decent thing and resigns
    Reform will certainly hope so, Reform were second to Labour in his Runcorn seat last year and got 18% of the vote ie more than they did nationally. So a probable by election there now will likely be heavily targeted by Farage

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2024/uk/constituencies/E14001455
    The Electoral Calculus prediction based on current polls would be Lab 37%, Ref 30%, Con 15%, LD 10%, Green 9% so Ref need to throw the kitchen sink at it
    With some Tory tactical votes to beat Labour Reform could win it
    I think with this seat Reform simply have to win if they want to be a credible force in British Politics rather than shouting from the sidelines.

    If they fail then I would think it highly likely that we hit peak Reform.
    Indeed, certainly if they want to be getting the kind of swing they need to win most seats or a majority
    10 weeks seems a lot for a minor ruckus, based on the in-depth knowledge of sentencing I have gleaned from Police Interceptors. Can't help feeling a little sorry for him there - I don't know for sure but I strongly suspect he was goaded into what he did. And now his career is over.

    Anyway, I'd say Reform have been chomping at the bit for a seat *like* this - but probably not *this* seat. The Labour bit is too Scouse, the Tory bit too Cheshire. Neither, I would say, are subect to much more squeezing.

    And immigration, where Reform score well, has fallen down the agenda; and Ukraine, where they score badly, has risen up it. Of course, we don't yet have a date for a BE, so that may have flipped again by the time the election comes around.
    It seems like a very lenient sentence to me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,663
    edited February 24
    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    Mike Amesbury sentencing remarks.

    Short and quite interesting.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-v-michael-amesbury/
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,245
    edited February 24
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    I don't think 1/2 is good odds. They are probably favourites, but not heavy ones.

    Reasons:
    1. Just under 35% is not an easy majority to overturn.
    2. Badenoch's Tories need to fight hard as a RefUK win is, if anything, worse news for her than for Starmer.
    3. There is a non-trivial chance of the RefUK candidate being a dud or worse.

    Evens is good odds. 1/2 isn't.
    Keir Starmer is as popular as Liz Truss was at her nadir. In those scenarios, your voters don't turn up.

    And while I appreciate that Kemi wants a win, the Conservatives have never had a particularly impressive byelection machine.

    Your third point is a good one, mind: there's a fair chance that they nominate a nutter.
    On Starmer v Truss approval ratings, that just isn't true. Truss reached -77% net at her nadir and Starmer is in a poor position but not there. Clearly, Labour aren't doing well and Starmer will feature on opposition leaflets to good effect. But you don't need to claim he's Truss to make that point - he really isn't.

    On the Tory by-election machine, they won't win it. But the point is they will gun hard against RefUK, and will split the anti-Labour vote. This isn't like one of the Lib Dem wins in the last Parliament where Labour put in a fairly token effort (or indeed Labour wins where the Lib Dems didn't show up).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,141

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
  • I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,835

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    It wasn't that long ago that certain posters were of the view that Trump becoming President would change nothing for Ukraine.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    On topic, Dehenna Davison's father was killed by a punch to the head.

    It's only blind luck than means he's got 10 weeks rather than 10 years.

    If you speed or drive under the influence, it's only blind luck that you don't hit someone, but we still give out lighter sentences.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    edited February 24

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Clearly you didn’t read the sentencing remarks .

    And as was pointed out above - if he had hit the victim in a different part of his head the charge could easily have been murder
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295
    Touch of Batley & Spen here for me. Labour hold on, Starmer cheers up, the tide turns and as we walk away from the beach we turn to see peak Reform, trough Labour.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,003
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    On Amiable Amesbury, the Judge could be a relation of Miss Snuffy:

    The sentence was met with apparent shock in the courtroom. Richard Derby, representing Amesbury, asked the judge: “Is that an immediate sentence?” The judge nodded, replied “yes” and left the courtroom.

    Derby then requested the judge come back into court as he wished to make an application for bail for Amesbury, pending an appeal against his sentence. Ikram returned to court, sat down, paused briefly and said: “Application refused.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/24/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-sentenced-assault

    It does seem extraordinary, particularly compared with my narrow experience of sentencing of traffic offending in Scotland. I can think of numerous cases where, to my mind, the behaviour was much worse than this and they basically got away with it.
    What's your experience of traffic offences ?

    They're strict liability, so you're almost always guilty unlike more serious offences where you need motive...- up to 12 points guidance seems to be followed but past 12 points magistrates are too soft in stopping people driving, I'd agree 'extraordinary hardship' is very overused
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295

    On topic, Dehenna Davison's father was killed by a punch to the head.

    It's only blind luck than means he's got 10 weeks rather than 10 years.

    If you speed or drive under the influence, it's only blind luck that you don't hit someone, but we still give out lighter sentences.
    Or usually no sentences since few DUIs are caught.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    edited February 24
    Does anyone know of a full translation of Herr Merz' speech into English (ideally spoken)?

    I'm interested particularly in the section where he says (ish) that Europe should declare UDI from Trumptopolis.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    Cookie said:

    Labour is massive value here.
    I said earlier: Reform will have been chomping at the bit for a seat *like* this to come up – but just not specifically this seat. The Runcorn bit is too Scouse to swing too far from Labour; the rest of the seat is too genteel to swing too far towards Reform.
    And the current news cycle isn’t massively favourable to Reform. Reform do well when immigration is in the spotlight, but not when Ukraine is in the spotlight. Of course, the news cycle might be quite different when the BE comes around.

    I don't really see this. But I do respect your far better experience of the constituency - I can't recall ever being there.

    Reform have been working the seat for a long time in anticipation for this. I don't see the Tories doing anything - indeed Kemi would be well advised to play down their chances and offer close to zero support to their selected candidate. Enough votes to keep their deposit will do nicely.

    Labour's vote will surely be depressed, not just by the national picture but by the manner of the by-election. So do we think that the appalled Zelensky fans of Runcorn will pass up the opportunity to give the Government a kicking? I will say I don't.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,406
    It's a bit early to punt on it, but Reform look too short to me, perhaps even a smidgeon of value on Labour if they pick a good local candidate who can mobilise the campaign rather than try and parachute in a gormless SPAD.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,001

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    There is something quite funny that we have an actual king who couldn’t do anything like Trump has done and Americans think monarchy is bad, yet they have a President - they don’t do tyrants like those degenerate Europeans - who is embodying pre revolutionary kings, truly “l’etat, c’est moi “
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,141

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 849

    On topic, Dehenna Davison's father was killed by a punch to the head.

    It's only blind luck than means he's got 10 weeks rather than 10 years.

    If you speed or drive under the influence, it's only blind luck that you don't hit someone, but we still give out lighter sentences.
    If you speed, drive under the influence, carelessly or dangerously in a car and hit someone causing injury, serious injury or death then courts give out lighter sentences than for an equivalent non-driving action.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,767
    edited February 24
    The US voting with Russia, urging everyone else to do as they have done, and getting no support for that position is, perhaps, an early indicator of how the world views Trump's administration.

    Ukraine diplomacy live: UN assembly condemns Russia’s Ukraine invasion despite US opposition - https://on.ft.com/4ig9Zgl via @FT
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,902

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Harsh? I think it's too lenient.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,054

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    There have been 5 previous election petitions that were completed. The threshold is 10%. 4 of them reached that, and the other one (the first ever) got to 9.4%. The only prior one to involve a custodial sentence (rather than Parliament stuff) got 27.6%. I think it's very likely that a petition will be successful.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295
    rcs1000 said:

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    It wasn't that long ago that certain posters were of the view that Trump becoming President would change nothing for Ukraine.
    His "madman" persona and lurid threats were going to scare Putin into calling the whole thing off.

    Or if not that just the sheer respect of one strongman for another would bring a fair and lasting peace.

    We await with bated breath.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,604

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,777
    edited February 24
    mwadams said:

    The US voting with Russia, urging everyone else to do as they have done, and getting no support for that position is, perhaps, an early indicator of how the world views Trump's administration.

    Ukraine diplomacy live: UN assembly condemns Russia’s Ukraine invasion despite US opposition - https://on.ft.com/4ig9Zgl via @FT

    Trump has tweeted immediately before he meets Macron that he has just had discussions with Putin

    Also it seems China supports the Trump - Putin peace talks

    A new world order is happening before our very eyes and I have no idea where Europe or the UK will feature in it

    Anyway the press conference between Trump and Macron will be very interesting
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,245
    edited February 24

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    I'm sure a recall petition would get sufficient signatures if it came to that (although I think he'd resign if the recall petition actually launched).

    That's not to say nobody supports him - they probably do. But there's no counter-petition - once triggered, it's just a question of whether 10% of the electorate sign and, with Labour being unpopular, they would.

    I'm reminded a bit of the Brecon by-election where some people sympathised with the removed Tory over what was a relatively minor matter, and he actually stood in the by-election and didn't do appallingly. But the actual recall petition passed quite easily with about 20% signing in a rural area where the practicalities of doing so were trickier. This was summer 2019 before the Johnson bounce, the Tories were fairly unpopular, and people signed on that basis.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    mwadams said:

    The US voting with Russia, urging everyone else to do as they have done, and getting no support for that position is, perhaps, an early indicator of how the world views Trump's administration.

    Ukraine diplomacy live: UN assembly condemns Russia’s Ukraine invasion despite US opposition - https://on.ft.com/4ig9Zgl via @FT

    Yes, I do wonder if Trump's very public declaration that he is Putin's bitch will change anything. This might be an early straw in the wind
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    On Amiable Amesbury, the Judge could be a relation of Miss Snuffy:

    The sentence was met with apparent shock in the courtroom. Richard Derby, representing Amesbury, asked the judge: “Is that an immediate sentence?” The judge nodded, replied “yes” and left the courtroom.

    Derby then requested the judge come back into court as he wished to make an application for bail for Amesbury, pending an appeal against his sentence. Ikram returned to court, sat down, paused briefly and said: “Application refused.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/feb/24/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-sentenced-assault

    It does seem extraordinary, particularly compared with my narrow experience of sentencing of traffic offending in Scotland. I can think of numerous cases where, to my mind, the behaviour was much worse than this and they basically got away with it.
    It's about the level of charging. Once you are charged for a particular offence, the sentencing guidelines really, really reduce the ability of the Magistrate/Judge to do other than follow them.

    Jeremy Meneses-Chalarca was held down by two teenagers, and stabbed by a third. The two who held him down were charged, not with murder, but assault. So they got sentences measured in months.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,767

    mwadams said:

    The US voting with Russia, urging everyone else to do as they have done, and getting no support for that position is, perhaps, an early indicator of how the world views Trump's administration.

    Ukraine diplomacy live: UN assembly condemns Russia’s Ukraine invasion despite US opposition - https://on.ft.com/4ig9Zgl via @FT

    Trump has tweeted immediately before he meets Macron that he has just had discussions with Putin

    Also it seems China supports the Trump - Putin peace talks

    A new world order is happening before our very eyes and I have no idea where Europe or the UK will feature in it

    Anyway the press conference between Trump and Macron will be very interesting
    China's triangulation is going to be thing to watch.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,822
    The US sides with Russia at the UN .

    Shameful and despicable.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,871

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    There are rumours of an imminent signing for days. But I find that hard to square with the USA's pro-Russian resolution at the UN.
  • nico67 said:

    The US sides with Russia at the UN .

    Shameful and despicable.

    And China sides with both

    These are extraordinary times with real problems for Europe and UK
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,988

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    Define "on the brink"...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,141

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    There are rumours of an imminent signing for days. But I find that hard to square with the USA's pro-Russian resolution at the UN.
    It's not a pro-Russia resolution, just the absence of a virtue-signalling motion that was brought with the express intention of embarrassing Trump. Voting against it just signalled that he's not impressed by such games.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,822
    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,655
    Fabulously interesting by-election potentially. In particular because no-one in politics apart from anoraks/PB types will want it to be held. If you are Labour but want to get rid of the erring MP (harshly treated IMHO) you take a great risk of disaster; SFAICS LDs and Greens can forget it; Tories need to do really well and won't; suddenly Reform are tainted goods, and a loud simple populist case can be made against them - they link with Trumpist fascists and Russians and so far dare not denounce them. There remains no love of Russia's fellow travellers among the voters.

    If there is value, it's with Labour.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,555
    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    As opposed to.....?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    There are rumours of an imminent signing for days. But I find that hard to square with the USA's pro-Russian resolution at the UN.
    Wonder how clever Mitch McConnell thinks his actions were now.
  • This is surely unique

    US - Russia - China line up together v UK and France as permanent members of the UN security council !!!!
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397

    Cookie said:

    Labour is massive value here.
    I said earlier: Reform will have been chomping at the bit for a seat *like* this to come up – but just not specifically this seat. The Runcorn bit is too Scouse to swing too far from Labour; the rest of the seat is too genteel to swing too far towards Reform.
    And the current news cycle isn’t massively favourable to Reform. Reform do well when immigration is in the spotlight, but not when Ukraine is in the spotlight. Of course, the news cycle might be quite different when the BE comes around.

    I don't really see this. But I do respect your far better experience of the constituency - I can't recall ever being there.

    Reform have been working the seat for a long time in anticipation for this. I don't see the Tories doing anything - indeed Kemi would be well advised to play down their chances and offer close to zero support to their selected candidate. Enough votes to keep their deposit will do nicely.

    Labour's vote will surely be depressed, not just by the national picture but by the manner of the by-election. So do we think that the appalled Zelensky fans of Runcorn will pass up the opportunity to give the Government a kicking? I will say I don't.
    We are talking Scouse and their general dislike of anything right wing. I can see their desire for not having a Reform MP as reason enough for a lot of people to go out and vote for the Labour candidate
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    edited February 24

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    There are rumours of an imminent signing for days. But I find that hard to square with the USA's pro-Russian resolution at the UN.
    I'm not very convinced of the rumours.

    I don't see Z going in for "I will step down in return for NATO membership". That's a one shot, and I'm not sure NATO membership is worth that much any more on its own - Trump could just turn the USA's coat tomorrow.

    It gets nothing from the USA except a bit of paper. And those are exactly the sorts of bits of paper that Trump has been wiping his bottom with every day, and on which he places no value.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,632
    Carnyx said:

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
    The only video I've seen was immediately after the incident, with Mike Amesbury saying something like "You won't have a go at me again, will ya?"
    I find it hard to imagine it would be an unprovoked attack.
  • Sky reporting

    Trump will meet Zelensky to sign minerals deal
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,245
    edited February 24
    Carnyx said:

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
    From the sentencing remarks, the victim, "who himself had been drinking, embarked on a discussion about a bridge closure in Frodsham". It seems that didn't rise to the level of provocation, and the response was entirely disproportionate. But, realistically, I think it's hard to see this as a wholly polite enquiry from a concerned constituent.

    I'm not in any way justifying it, and think the sentence is about right. But I think most people picturing the circumstances would see a drunken argument where the MP wrongly failed to keep his cool but nobody comes out entirely smelling of roses. And they'd probably be broadly right.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,397
    edited February 24

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    Did he miss the election in which the candidate who said he was going to do this won?
    Which election had a candidate who said he was going to switch sides to support Russia against Ukraine when he won?
    Has anyone told Zelensky who is on the brink of signing a deal with Trump?
    There are rumours of an imminent signing for days. But I find that hard to square with the USA's pro-Russian resolution at the UN.
    It's not a pro-Russia resolution, just the absence of a virtue-signalling motion that was brought with the express intention of embarrassing Trump. Voting against it just signalled that he's not impressed by such games.
    Once again where are those rumours coming from - I suspect the only source of them is Washington (and Moscow) both trying to force a point.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    rcs1000 said:

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    It wasn't that long ago that certain posters were of the view that Trump becoming President would change nothing for Ukraine.
    They will quickly reconcile themselves with this actually being good for Ukrainians. Owning the Libs is the main goal and that makes Trump a permanent ally.
  • This is surely unique

    US - Russia - China line up together v UK and France as permanent members of the UN security council !!!!

    Though in the actual vote, China abstained.

    https://bsky.app/profile/pippacrerar.bsky.social/post/3liwufp4hxk27
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935

    This is surely unique

    US - Russia - China line up together v UK and France as permanent members of the UN security council !!!!

    How about we resolve it over a game of football or rugby?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,003

    This is surely unique

    US - Russia - China line up together v UK and France as permanent members of the UN security council !!!!

    China abstained. North Korea and Israel voted with the US. Surely a first for North Korea 😂
  • Trump Macron news conference at 7.00pm
  • Pulpstar said:

    This is surely unique

    US - Russia - China line up together v UK and France as permanent members of the UN security council !!!!

    China abstained. North Korea and Israel voted with the US. Surely a first for North Korea 😂
    Yes on today's vote but going forward China supports the US - Russia peace talks
  • nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    AUKUS ?????
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    His cover is blown...

    @kaitlancollins

    "I don't want to explain it now, but it's sort of self evident I think," President Trump says in the Oval Office when asked about why the U.S. joined Russia to vote in voting against a UN resolution condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
    The only video I've seen was immediately after the incident, with Mike Amesbury saying something like "You won't have a go at me again, will ya?"
    I find it hard to imagine it would be an unprovoked attack.
    I think he was having a go verbally about something political or constituency, and Amesbury went physical, both having drink taken.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,831
    Radio 4 has lost the six o’clock news - has the bomb dropped?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,822

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    AUKUS ?????
    Trump doesn’t honour agreements so why would anyone have faith in that .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,109
    It ought to be bigger news, I think, that a senior Reform and ex-Brexit MP has been charged with effectively being an agent of Russia’s.
  • topovtopov Posts: 16
    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    1/2 are good odds on Reform: I'd take that.

    My gut is that the Labour vote craters (from 22k to 7k), the Tory vote drops a little (7k to 5k) and Reform is up but not massively (7k to 9-10k).

    This gives Reform a fairly comfortable win on low turnout.

    Having worked in the area, albeit a few years ago, it's a solid 'working class' area. League rather than Union. Quite a community spirit especially if they feel they are being taken advantage of. Not sure Labour reflects their views anymore and if a metropolitan Labour candidate is parachuted in, the vote collapse will happen.

    Too early for me to take a position but it would be Reform IMHO.
    Runcorn/ Frodsham is nothing to write home about I agree, but that area from Mickle Trafford through the Barrows/ Guilden Sutton and up to Mouldsworth / Manley isn't working class at all - in fact its pretty well to do from memory (I grew up in South West Cheshire). Quite a big agricultural area too I think - might help get a few votes out in any recall petition?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,975
    IanB2 said:

    Radio 4 has lost the six o’clock news - has the bomb dropped?

    What do you.mean?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,555

    rcs1000 said:

    Robert Kagan:

    Switching sides to support Russia against Ukraine is "a real indication of what it means to have a King [not a president], the whims of the king become policy immediately and then have to be defended by all the courtiers...they have to sound like what the king wants."

    It wasn't that long ago that certain posters were of the view that Trump becoming President would change nothing for Ukraine.
    They will quickly reconcile themselves with this actually being good for Ukrainians. Owning the Libs is the main goal and that makes Trump a permanent ally.
    Owning the libs is just a pleasant by product.

    People on here are commenting with their hearts not their heads. Similar to the days of "Ukraine will win because they have to win".

    Look at the voting blocs that we are seeing right now. That's the reality, not what we want or don't want.

    I would very much like to be a part of a Europe which is self-sufficient in any number of ways and we will have to wait to see if that will transpire. More likely is we will relapse back into our reliance on other states (ie the United ones) but we shall see.

    What is disappointing on PB, that said, is that precious few people are bringing cold, hard analysis to the situation. Why, upthread there was someone bemoaning our presumed (ie 100% certain) lack of action if China invades Taiwan ffs.

    Too many people on PB are living in, perhaps hark fondly back to the times when the map was coloured pink.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,831
    edited February 24

    IanB2 said:

    Radio 4 has lost the six o’clock news - has the bomb dropped?

    What do you.mean?
    There was silence, then they said they were looking for the news and played a trailer, then they said they’d found the news but there was an even longer silence. Now lots more trailers. Now they’re apologising for having completely lost the news.

    Breaking - the news is found!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    Going to be an increasingly important question

    @BeingJWood

    Is the United States military loyal to the Constitution or are they loyal to Trump?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,245
    edited February 24
    algarkirk said:

    Fabulously interesting by-election potentially. In particular because no-one in politics apart from anoraks/PB types will want it to be held. If you are Labour but want to get rid of the erring MP (harshly treated IMHO) you take a great risk of disaster; SFAICS LDs and Greens can forget it; Tories need to do really well and won't; suddenly Reform are tainted goods, and a loud simple populist case can be made against them - they link with Trumpist fascists and Russians and so far dare not denounce them. There remains no love of Russia's fellow travellers among the voters.

    If there is value, it's with Labour.

    Surely RefUK want this by-election? I get it that there is a downside risk if they lose. But they need to progress the narrative of replacing the Tories and sidelining the Lib Dems as the principal opposition to Labour, and this is a good prospect for them. They can't just rely on saying they are for four years - they do need to have the chances to back it up, and take them. Yes, they may not win and that would be embarrassing. But they have more to gain than to lose.

  • nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    If China invades Taiwan we should take the US attitude , thousands of miles away , not our war …..

    AUKUS ?????
    Trump doesn’t honour agreements so why would anyone have faith in that .
    His focus is on the Pacific and China so what he says about AUKUS will be interesting and important for our defence industry
  • It ought to be bigger news, I think, that a senior Reform and ex-Brexit MP has been charged with effectively being an agent of Russia’s.

    With a hat-tip to its originator;

    R is for Reform.
    R is for Russia.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    Scott_xP said:

    His cover is blown...

    @kaitlancollins

    "I don't want to explain it now, but it's sort of self evident I think," President Trump says in the Oval Office when asked about why the U.S. joined Russia to vote in voting against a UN resolution condemning Russia’s war against Ukraine.

    It really comes down to Europe needing a version of the Monroe Doctrine.

    We owe it, therefore, to candor and to the amicable relations existing between the United States and those powers to declare that we should consider any attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this hemisphere as dangerous to our peace and safety. With the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power, we have not interfered and shall not interfere. But with the Governments who have declared their independence and maintained it, and whose independence we have, on great consideration and on just principles, acknowledged, we could not view any interposition for the purpose of oppressing them, or controlling in any other manner their destiny, by any European power in any other light than as the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition toward the United States.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,283
    eek said:

    Cookie said:

    Labour is massive value here.
    I said earlier: Reform will have been chomping at the bit for a seat *like* this to come up – but just not specifically this seat. The Runcorn bit is too Scouse to swing too far from Labour; the rest of the seat is too genteel to swing too far towards Reform.
    And the current news cycle isn’t massively favourable to Reform. Reform do well when immigration is in the spotlight, but not when Ukraine is in the spotlight. Of course, the news cycle might be quite different when the BE comes around.

    I don't really see this. But I do respect your far better experience of the constituency - I can't recall ever being there.

    Reform have been working the seat for a long time in anticipation for this. I don't see the Tories doing anything - indeed Kemi would be well advised to play down their chances and offer close to zero support to their selected candidate. Enough votes to keep their deposit will do nicely.

    Labour's vote will surely be depressed, not just by the national picture but by the manner of the by-election. So do we think that the appalled Zelensky fans of Runcorn will pass up the opportunity to give the Government a kicking? I will say I don't.
    We are talking Scouse and their general dislike of anything right wing. I can see their desire for not having a Reform MP as reason enough for a lot of people to go out and vote for the Labour candidate
    AFAICS there is no reason in that by-election for former Labour voters to turn against Labour. The offence was one of personal responsibility not a party issue. And it seems unlikely that Labour voters will have turned against the party to the extent of voting against them.
  • It ought to be bigger news, I think, that a senior Reform and ex-Brexit MP has been charged with effectively being an agent of Russia’s.

    Here's the report

    Ex-Reform UK leader in Wales accused of taking Russian bribes

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/ex-reform-uk-leader-wales-31069958#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,961

    Carnyx said:

    I wonder if the Recall Petiton will get enough votes? OK, he shouldn't have lamped the constituent, but the sentence seems a bit harsh and I wonder if quite a few voters might have a bit of support for him. There's a bit of a rising swell of opinion against people having a go at authority figures, be they police, NHS workers, even MPs.

    Er, there was no suggestion in the report that the constituent "had a go". Or am I missing something?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jan/16/suspended-labour-mp-mike-amesbury-pleads-guilty-to-assault
    From the sentencing remarks, the victim, "who himself had been drinking, embarked on a discussion about a bridge closure in Frodsham". It seems that didn't rise to the level of provocation, and the response was entirely disproportionate. But, realistically, I think it's hard to see this as a wholly polite enquiry from a concerned constituent.

    I'm not in any way justifying it, and think the sentence is about right. But I think most people picturing the circumstances would see a drunken argument where the MP wrongly failed to keep his cool but nobody comes out entirely smelling of roses. And they'd probably be broadly right.
    Let anyone who has not felt the red mist rise at the mention of a bridge closure in Frodsham throw the first punch.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,370

    It ought to be bigger news, I think, that a senior Reform and ex-Brexit MP has been charged with effectively being an agent of Russia’s.

    Bit hard to get traction if no-one's heard his name before, even if he was technically "senior".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,080
    A few people have commented that Zelensky is wasting his time dealing with Trump, he should deal directly with Putin instead.

    Deal with the organ grinder, not the monkey...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,109
    carnforth said:

    It ought to be bigger news, I think, that a senior Reform and ex-Brexit MP has been charged with effectively being an agent of Russia’s.

    Bit hard to get traction if no-one's heard his name before, even if he was technically "senior".
    Have they heard of him in Wales?
    Aren’t Reform now ahead in Welsh polling?

    Maybe not any more.
This discussion has been closed.