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Challenges – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,222
edited December 26 in General
imageChallenges – politicalbetting.com

“They slipped the surly bonds of earth to touch the face of God.”

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,184
    edited December 26
    First for Boxing Day!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,145
    edited December 26
    Of course inquiries are long, expensive and pointless.

    Politicians need a way to dodge questions so there's a whole industry to support. Cynical, parasitical lawyers and consultants have to eat somehow and useless judges need some form of retirement income - God forbid they should rely on their gold-plated pensions.

    The inquiry industry also explains why building new infrastructure costs four times what it should and gives us ridiculous bat tunnels.
  • The Rogers Commission into the Space Shuttle disaster is best remembered for American celebrity physicist Richard Feynman demonstrating the O-rings' loss of elasticity when cold (and notice he uses degrees Fahrenheit!):-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raMmRKGkGD4

    Feynman also discovered, however, that Nasa managers did not properly understand the concept of safety factors, leading to fatal miscalculations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,794
    Some kid in the village asked me to modify his Xmas e-scooter to make it illegally fast and a danger to himself and all around him. Naturally, I said yes.

    No sooner had I fired up my St Petersburg seedbox and got on the dark web to look for firmware images when I found a slip of paper in the box that told the new owner what code to put in to unlock full power. It's that easy. Fucking LOL. It's a Xmas Miracle!
  • Fishing said:

    Of course inquiries are long, expensive and pointless.

    Politicians need a way to dodge questions so there's a whole industry to support. Cynical, parasitical lawyers and consultants have to eat somehow and useless judges need some form of retirement income - God forbid they should rely on their gold-plated pensions.

    The inquiry industry also explains why building new infrastructure costs four times what it should and gives us ridiculous bat tunnels.

    Look at the praise this very PB garlanded on barristers at the inquiries into Covid and the Post Office, but also the complaints they seemed concerned mainly with process and tittle-tattle rather than lessons for next time. Discovering which minister dropped the ball (which turns out to be most of them) is of little real use because they won't be in office when the next crisis hits.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Some kid in the village asked me to modify his Xmas e-scooter to make it illegally fast and a danger to himself and all around him. Naturally, I said yes.

    No sooner had I fired up my St Petersburg seedbox and got on the dark web to look for firmware images when I found a slip of paper in the box that told the new owner what code to put in to unlock full power. It's that easy. Fucking LOL. It's a Xmas Miracle!

    You are Jimmy Carr AICMFP (20-second video)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/k6WO6PmpuUg
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,983
    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    Vengeance Most Fowl was the only TV I watched all day and the first non-news BBC content I've seen for a very long time. It was rather good.

    Oh, and if you haven't yet do give the Undercutters F1 podcast, by me, a look. Hoping to get the third episode, Most Memorable Moments of 2024, done between now and New Year, but we'll see.

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/
  • FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    Vengeance Most Fowl was the only TV I watched all day and the first non-news BBC content I've seen for a very long time. It was rather good.

    Oh, and if you haven't yet do give the Undercutters F1 podcast, by me, a look. Hoping to get the third episode, Most Memorable Moments of 2024, done between now and New Year, but we'll see.

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/

    I found your podcast delivery a bit slow and played it back at 1.25x speed.
  • We are far too risk averse unlike the US who like to live a little more dangerously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkoY477b-FI
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,102
    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,983

    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    Vengeance Most Fowl was the only TV I watched all day and the first non-news BBC content I've seen for a very long time. It was rather good.

    Oh, and if you haven't yet do give the Undercutters F1 podcast, by me, a look. Hoping to get the third episode, Most Memorable Moments of 2024, done between now and New Year, but we'll see.

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/

    I found your podcast delivery a bit slow and played it back at 1.25x speed.
    I was wondering if the first in particular was a bit too deliberate (may've gone overboard avoiding the stereotypical mistake of rushing too much). Did you find the second better or the same? That was largely unscripted and, I think, more natural/faster.

    And cheers for the constructive criticism, I appreciate it.
  • FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    Vengeance Most Fowl was the only TV I watched all day and the first non-news BBC content I've seen for a very long time. It was rather good.

    Oh, and if you haven't yet do give the Undercutters F1 podcast, by me, a look. Hoping to get the third episode, Most Memorable Moments of 2024, done between now and New Year, but we'll see.

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/

    I found your podcast delivery a bit slow and played it back at 1.25x speed.
    I was wondering if the first in particular was a bit too deliberate (may've gone overboard avoiding the stereotypical mistake of rushing too much). Did you find the second better or the same? That was largely unscripted and, I think, more natural/faster.

    And cheers for the constructive criticism, I appreciate it.
    Even if you agree with me, you do not need to speak more quickly, you can either speed up the recording before uploading or just leave it for listeners to adjust.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    edited December 26
    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,184

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
    Fantasy tends to appeal when reality is perceived to have failed. It was ever thus.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    The disaster of R101, an airship that took off without a certificate of airworthiness despite significant losses of gas, major structural changes and repeated failures of the outer cover because nobody dared to tell the Secretary of State for Air to his face to stop being a twat springs to mind.

    In that case, karma did have a modest walk on part - the SoS for Air was among the dead.

    Bit hard on the other 47 victims though.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    An excellent threader. Thanks, Ms Free.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,184
    edited December 26
    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    Dura_Ace said:

    Some kid in the village asked me to modify his Xmas e-scooter to make it illegally fast and a danger to himself and all around him. Naturally, I said yes.

    No sooner had I fired up my St Petersburg seedbox and got on the dark web to look for firmware images when I found a slip of paper in the box that told the new owner what code to put in to unlock full power. It's that easy. Fucking LOL. It's a Xmas Miracle!

    The thing about Challenger was that people making the decisions believed they were doing the right thing, even if they had doubts. In doing so, they kidded themselves. No-one wanted the mission to fail with loss of crew. "Go fever" utterly captured them.

    Then there are the other side of the equation: people who are willing to do wrong just for the shits and giggles. Those with no societal mores, who do not care one bit about the consequences of their actions. If people die, so what? And they even post to brag about their actions.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564
    A piece about the continuing crisis in Venezuela, which we tend to overlook given the problems closer to home in Ukraine and the Middle East: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/12/venezuela-opposition-machado-optimism/681148/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844

    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...

    Morning Mr Spielberg, hope you're well. Any news on a new Indiana Jones film yet?
  • Thanks for the excellent piece, again. You should write a book on the subject! (No, I haven't forgotten about it - just been distracted by some Life issues.)

    Have a brilliant 2025. You deserve it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    ydoethur said:

    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...

    Morning Mr Spielberg, hope you're well. Any news on a new Indiana Jones film yet?
    After the loss I made on the last one? Dream on....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,794

    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...

    I reckon you could track down any regular on here with a modicum of effort. Two PBers have found me on Facebook...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,700
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    The disaster of R101, an airship that took off without a certificate of airworthiness despite significant losses of gas, major structural changes and repeated failures of the outer cover because nobody dared to tell the Secretary of State for Air to his face to stop being a twat springs to mind.

    In that case, karma did have a modest walk on part - the SoS for Air was among the dead.

    Bit hard on the other 47 victims though.
    See also those poor victims on the Imperial Death Star after Grand Moff Tarkin ignored the safety warnings.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,174
    edited December 26
    Dura_Ace said:

    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...

    I reckon you could track down any regular on here with a modicum of effort. Two PBers have found me on Facebook...
    Would it be too meta to enquire as to the identities of those PB snoops?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
  • Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    Why? What's he done in the four years since the Horizon inquiry was set up besides establishing beyond reasonable doubt that a succession of junior ministers were a complete waste of IPSA expenses?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    See also Presidents Reagan and Biden; possibly GW Bush too. White House marble lossage is routinely covered up.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,225
    I am toying with triumph or disaster this morning too. It’s a grey overcast day, but my hunch is this only goes about 800 metres up. Above which will be blue sky and big views towards the Alps. So I plan on dragging the family out for a walk up in the hills. But if I get it wrong it’s going to be a misty high altitude catastrophe.
  • Morning all! Great header as we would expect from @Cyclefree

    I want to broaden the focus on it. We all know how private industry gets into this kind of mess. This is our truth because we all say it. But this is endemic in government as well - especially local government.

    Industry usually hires the best people for the job and often promotes the worst people - who then hire people just like them. National and local government? Too often we elect the worst people - those crazy enough to actually want to be politicians in this 24/7 social media scrutiny environment. That's not everyone, but increasingly the good people (regardless of party) aren't the people who end up running things.

    Combine the worst people with systems and structures designed to stifle creativity and dampen expectations? Its no wonder that we are so deep into the mess we are in. At least with private industry there is the potential to hire someone from the outside who takes an axe to the terrible and turns things around. How do we turn around the Treasury? Or the local planning department?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    The experience of the past four years suggests that they’ll absolutely keep him in place and cover for him, while the politicians and bureaucrats behind the scenes continue to make the decisions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    The experience of the past four years suggests that they’ll absolutely keep him in place and cover for him, while the politicians and bureaucrats behind the scenes continue to make the decisions.
    If sane people filled those roles, that would be a good outcome.

    Unfortunately Trump has declared his intention to fire the sane people and promote lunatics.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,234
    edited December 26
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    I don't like Vance or his politics, but he is both intelligent and sane.

    Vance is the ultimate political chameleon, changing colour to fit the ambiance. A Hillbilly when it suits, a Harvard Lawyer when it suits, a Never-Trumper when it suits and a Trumper when that suits. It's only when he reaches the ultimate position that we will see him become his own person.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,456
    edited December 26
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    What's he done that "deserves" a bauble?
  • A great header, Cyclefree, about a superb book.
    "Midnight In Chernobyl" by the same author is equally as superb.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    I don't like Vance or his politics, but he is both intelligent and sane.

    Vance is the ultimate political chameleon, changing colour to fit the ambiance. A Hillbilly when it suits, a Harvard Lawyer when it suits, a Never-Trumper when it suits and a Trumper when that suits. It's only when he reaches the ultimate position that we will see him become his own person.
    He helped write project 2025 and you think he's sane?

    Well, you're the one with the medical degree.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,234

    Morning all! Great header as we would expect from @Cyclefree

    I want to broaden the focus on it. We all know how private industry gets into this kind of mess. This is our truth because we all say it. But this is endemic in government as well - especially local government.

    Industry usually hires the best people for the job and often promotes the worst people - who then hire people just like them. National and local government? Too often we elect the worst people - those crazy enough to actually want to be politicians in this 24/7 social media scrutiny environment. That's not everyone, but increasingly the good people (regardless of party) aren't the people who end up running things.

    Combine the worst people with systems and structures designed to stifle creativity and dampen expectations? Its no wonder that we are so deep into the mess we are in. At least with private industry there is the potential to hire someone from the outside who takes an axe to the terrible and turns things around. How do we turn around the Treasury? Or the local planning department?

    I am not sure that I agree, and I wouldn't take such a cynical view of politicians. I disagree on many things with our leading politicians, but in the main they are not motivated by either greed or malice.

    I think the turgid beaurocracy that we have created is in large part down to excessive zeal in trying to prevent future mistakes by policy, legalese and regulation. While that works to a degree, it stifles initiative and innovation. It may well be that we need to be more tolerant of mistakes and less judgemental if we want to escape the red tape.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,234
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    I don't like Vance or his politics, but he is both intelligent and sane.

    Vance is the ultimate political chameleon, changing colour to fit the ambiance. A Hillbilly when it suits, a Harvard Lawyer when it suits, a Never-Trumper when it suits and a Trumper when that suits. It's only when he reaches the ultimate position that we will see him become his own person.
    He helped write project 2025 and you think he's sane?

    Well, you're the one with the medical degree.
    I don't agree with Project 2025, but it is not evidence of insanity.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533

    Morning all! Great header as we would expect from @Cyclefree

    I want to broaden the focus on it. We all know how private industry gets into this kind of mess. This is our truth because we all say it. But this is endemic in government as well - especially local government.

    Industry usually hires the best people for the job and often promotes the worst people - who then hire people just like them. National and local government? Too often we elect the worst people - those crazy enough to actually want to be politicians in this 24/7 social media scrutiny environment. That's not everyone, but increasingly the good people (regardless of party) aren't the people who end up running things.

    Combine the worst people with systems and structures designed to stifle creativity and dampen expectations? Its no wonder that we are so deep into the mess we are in. At least with private industry there is the potential to hire someone from the outside who takes an axe to the terrible and turns things around. How do we turn around the Treasury? Or the local planning department?

    Get some decent people in and shake the place up, cull the useless and incompetent. Only way, passengers , incompetents and clowns first pass.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    What's he done that "deserves" a bauble?
    who the feck is he
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    Why? What's he done in the four years since the Horizon inquiry was set up besides establishing beyond reasonable doubt that a succession of junior ministers were a complete waste of IPSA expenses?
    I’d say that establishing beyond reasonable doubt that a succession of government ministers and PO managers were a waste of their expense accounts was very much a laudable activity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    Anyway, in important news, Pakistan collapsing in an embarrassing heap. From 35/0 to 64/4, although Rizwan and Ghulam putting on a counter-attack.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,952
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,794

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    The 25th is a very high bar. They can get JDV in with a simple majority in Cabinet but to make it stick they need 2/3rds super-majorities in both houses.

    It's probably easier and simpler to impeach DJT if they want to get rid as more Dems will vote for that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
  • Foxy said:

    Morning all! Great header as we would expect from @Cyclefree

    I want to broaden the focus on it. We all know how private industry gets into this kind of mess. This is our truth because we all say it. But this is endemic in government as well - especially local government.

    Industry usually hires the best people for the job and often promotes the worst people - who then hire people just like them. National and local government? Too often we elect the worst people - those crazy enough to actually want to be politicians in this 24/7 social media scrutiny environment. That's not everyone, but increasingly the good people (regardless of party) aren't the people who end up running things.

    Combine the worst people with systems and structures designed to stifle creativity and dampen expectations? Its no wonder that we are so deep into the mess we are in. At least with private industry there is the potential to hire someone from the outside who takes an axe to the terrible and turns things around. How do we turn around the Treasury? Or the local planning department?

    I am not sure that I agree, and I wouldn't take such a cynical view of politicians. I disagree on many things with our leading politicians, but in the main they are not motivated by either greed or malice.

    I think the turgid beaurocracy that we have created is in large part down to excessive zeal in trying to prevent future mistakes by policy, legalese and regulation. While that works to a degree, it stifles initiative and innovation. It may well be that we need to be more tolerant of mistakes and less judgemental if we want to escape the red tape.
    I'm not suggesting that people are "motivated by greed and malice". I'm suggesting that many of them are crap at actually running things. They want to do good, but find themselves not actually capable despite being propelled / propelling themselves into higher office.

    Party politics dictates that our team are great and the other team are crap. So we end up with idiot savants sat in notional charge of major services thinking they must be good because their side is right. It's no wonder that we end up trapped by a turgid bureaucracy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    I don't like Vance or his politics, but he is both intelligent and sane.

    Vance is the ultimate political chameleon, changing colour to fit the ambiance. A Hillbilly when it suits, a Harvard Lawyer when it suits, a Never-Trumper when it suits and a Trumper when that suits. It's only when he reaches the ultimate position that we will see him become his own person.
    Whatever that might be. His past offers few clues.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    Why? What's he done in the four years since the Horizon inquiry was set up besides establishing beyond reasonable doubt that a succession of junior ministers were a complete waste of IPSA expenses?
    I’d say that establishing beyond reasonable doubt that a succession of government ministers and PO managers were a waste of their expense accounts was very much a laudable activity.
    But it is a backwards-looking activity. Everyone has moved on. What does it tell us? Not to let Kemi or Ed Davey run their political parties?
  • ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Here is the problem with the progressive's sneer at the populist right - they know enough about our problems to actually *try* to get stuff done. Pop-right government's don't just crash and burn because they target the obvious stuff we all know is wrong and get on with targeting them.

    I heard an interview with the Polish foreign minister who talked about how they had defeated the pop-right - he said you have to go do stuff. Starmer is at least trying to go after the migration crisis - he's deported an awful lot of people in a relatively small amount of time.

    His problem? They aren't shouting it from the rafters. Had Farage become PM and started deporting people it would be *everywhere*. But that is the only thing Starmer is doing. There's an obvious list of stuff to target and Labour are in denial about chunks of them...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,102

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Here is the problem with the progressive's sneer at the populist right - they know enough about our problems to actually *try* to get stuff done. Pop-right government's don't just crash and burn because they target the obvious stuff we all know is wrong and get on with targeting them.

    I heard an interview with the Polish foreign minister who talked about how they had defeated the pop-right - he said you have to go do stuff. Starmer is at least trying to go after the migration crisis - he's deported an awful lot of people in a relatively small amount of time.

    His problem? They aren't shouting it from the rafters. Had Farage become PM and started deporting people it would be *everywhere*. But that is the only thing Starmer is doing. There's an obvious list of stuff to target and Labour are in denial about chunks of them...
    And yet the Lib Dems are famous for doing reasonably well electorally for getting local stuff done like filling potholes. Wouldn't they be doing even better if that premise is good?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,538
    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The thing about aviation is that the NTSB et al run investigations to find out why the accident occurred so the causes can be fixed or mitigated rather than so that someone can be blamed. This has led to every accident being a learning experience which contributed to the incremental safety of air travel.

    There are a few exceptions to this but not many
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,361

    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    Vengeance Most Fowl was the only TV I watched all day and the first non-news BBC content I've seen for a very long time. It was rather good.

    Oh, and if you haven't yet do give the Undercutters F1 podcast, by me, a look. Hoping to get the third episode, Most Memorable Moments of 2024, done between now and New Year, but we'll see.

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/

    I found your podcast delivery a bit slow and played it back at 1.25x speed.
    I was wondering if the first in particular was a bit too deliberate (may've gone overboard avoiding the stereotypical mistake of rushing too much). Did you find the second better or the same? That was largely unscripted and, I think, more natural/faster.

    And cheers for the constructive criticism, I appreciate it.
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    Trump's supporters assure us it's just a clever negotiating tactic.
    For some, he can literally do no wrong. They just reinterpret.
  • I'm pretty sure that it's an insight I've got from one of the smart cookies here, but when a system gives outputs you don't like, it's more than likely that the system is doing what it was asked to do. The problem is the aims and the plumbing, rather than human incompetence or malignancy.

    The notorious example in schools was when we used to pour absurd amounts of resource- the most experienced staff, books and website subscriptions, motivational away days- into the small slice of year 11 who were on track for 4 GCSE passes. Because the success criterion was the proportion who got 5.

    My suspicion is that, if we don't like the current setup, part of the answer is to make organisations that do stuff- whether business or government- smaller and less centralised than they currently are. Partly to allow smaller, lower risk experiments, but also to improve the chances that those giving the orders know what they're talking about.

    But there must be non-malign reasons why we ended up here.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    The Rogers Commission into the Space Shuttle disaster is best remembered for American celebrity physicist Richard Feynman demonstrating the O-rings' loss of elasticity when cold (and notice he uses degrees Fahrenheit!):-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raMmRKGkGD4

    Feynman also discovered, however, that Nasa managers did not properly understand the concept of safety factors, leading to fatal miscalculations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report

    Yes - his work on this is one of the most fascinating aspects of the book.

    Understanding risks properly is key to managing them effectively. True in lots of sectors: the financial world has given us a masterclass over decades on how poorly it understands the risks it is taking. I was surprised by NASA's failures on this, though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    spudgfsh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The thing about aviation is that the NTSB et al run investigations to find out why the accident occurred so the causes can be fixed or mitigated rather than so that someone can be blamed. This has led to every accident being a learning experience which contributed to the incremental safety of air travel.

    There are a few exceptions to this but not many
    Absolutely.

    Transport accidents pretty much stopped happening because the NTSB (in the UK the AAIB and RIAB) investigates every incident and accident, and makes recommendations aimed at preventing the next one.

    We can all learn from that approach, of looking at causes of incidents rather than rushing to apportion blame. No-blame culture works, ask the Mercedes F1 team who won seven championships in a row using just that approach.
  • AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Here is the problem with the progressive's sneer at the populist right - they know enough about our problems to actually *try* to get stuff done. Pop-right government's don't just crash and burn because they target the obvious stuff we all know is wrong and get on with targeting them.

    I heard an interview with the Polish foreign minister who talked about how they had defeated the pop-right - he said you have to go do stuff. Starmer is at least trying to go after the migration crisis - he's deported an awful lot of people in a relatively small amount of time.

    His problem? They aren't shouting it from the rafters. Had Farage become PM and started deporting people it would be *everywhere*. But that is the only thing Starmer is doing. There's an obvious list of stuff to target and Labour are in denial about chunks of them...
    And yet the Lib Dems are famous for doing reasonably well electorally for getting local stuff done like filling potholes. Wouldn't they be doing even better if that premise is good?
    People expect potholes to be filled, grass verges to be maintained etc etc. We focus on the basic stuff and do it brilliantly. That gives us platforms to build on. Great!

    We're (broadly) progressive. That means we care and we know it. My diagnosis isn't specific to my party or my previous party, it's a criticism of "the left". We're too nice.
  • Foxy said:

    Morning all! Great header as we would expect from @Cyclefree

    I want to broaden the focus on it. We all know how private industry gets into this kind of mess. This is our truth because we all say it. But this is endemic in government as well - especially local government.

    Industry usually hires the best people for the job and often promotes the worst people - who then hire people just like them. National and local government? Too often we elect the worst people - those crazy enough to actually want to be politicians in this 24/7 social media scrutiny environment. That's not everyone, but increasingly the good people (regardless of party) aren't the people who end up running things.

    Combine the worst people with systems and structures designed to stifle creativity and dampen expectations? Its no wonder that we are so deep into the mess we are in. At least with private industry there is the potential to hire someone from the outside who takes an axe to the terrible and turns things around. How do we turn around the Treasury? Or the local planning department?

    I am not sure that I agree, and I wouldn't take such a cynical view of politicians. I disagree on many things with our leading politicians, but in the main they are not motivated by either greed or malice.

    I think the turgid beaurocracy that we have created is in large part down to excessive zeal in trying to prevent future mistakes by policy, legalese and regulation. While that works to a degree, it stifles initiative and innovation. It may well be that we need to be more tolerant of mistakes and less judgemental if we want to escape the red tape.
    I'm not suggesting that people are "motivated by greed and malice". I'm suggesting that many of them are crap at actually running things. They want to do good, but find themselves not actually capable despite being propelled / propelling themselves into higher office.

    Party politics dictates that our team are great and the other team are crap. So we end up with idiot savants sat in notional charge of major services thinking they must be good because their side is right. It's no wonder that we end up trapped by a turgid bureaucracy.
    I do not think that is quite right. What we have ended up with is well-meaning bureaucrats, by which I include most politicians, trained on Oxford PPE, trapped by legalistic thinking and bounded by unsound economic models based on inadequate statistics.

    What is our most recent innovation in economic policy? The OBR marking the Treasury's and Bank of England's homework, all based on the same thinking and the same models and the same dodgy statistics. Devised by George Osborne as an anti-Labour trap, it stopped Conservatives too. Most infrastructure spending is deemed too expensive, especially outside the M25.

    At least idiot savants occasionally build something, whether it be Amazon or Tesla or the Sinclair ZX80.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,538
    Cyclefree said:

    Good early investigation is the key to stopping a problem turning into a crisis.

    sadly there's not the money to do it.

    good article though
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,464
    spudgfsh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The thing about aviation is that the NTSB et al run investigations to find out why the accident occurred so the causes can be fixed or mitigated rather than so that someone can be blamed. This has led to every accident being a learning experience which contributed to the incremental safety of air travel.

    There are a few exceptions to this but not many
    Railways as well, to some extent.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    spudgfsh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The thing about aviation is that the NTSB et al run investigations to find out why the accident occurred so the causes can be fixed or mitigated rather than so that someone can be blamed. This has led to every accident being a learning experience which contributed to the incremental safety of air travel.

    There are a few exceptions to this but not many
    And to bang my drum once again: a good early investigation should always be about understanding what happened and why not about apportioning blame. If someone has messed up then find out why they messed up - it is not usually malice and try to address that.

    But the longer you wait the greater the desire to find someone to blame and the greater the risk that you ignore what really needs fixing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,464
    Many thanks, Cyclefree. I knew the story but a fresh take will evidently be educational. The Higginbotham book is coming out in paperback in June - duly noted down.
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    What's he done that "deserves" a bauble?
    who the feck is he
    Jason Beer KC is the top lawyer on the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry into how they screwed the subpostmasters.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,061
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I hope everyone had a lovely Xmas.

    I am now going to indulge in shameless self-promotion. I have spent much of the past few months writing a book on scandals and investigations: why the former happens, why they reasons they happen are the same - no matter what the sector - and why the inquiries and their usually sensible recommendations are ignored so that we can repeat the mistakes and tragedies over and over again.

    Would you believe there was a sensible inquiry into and report on public inquiries some 4 years which made a lot of useful recommendations to stop them being so long and expensive? It has been ignored and so another report has just come out saying the same things again and Please Do them THIS TIME.

    The book is probably rubbish, certainly needs considerable pruning and editing and may be of no commercial interest to anyone. But it has clarified my thoughts and so I will answer some of your questions.

    THE reason why inquiries are so long is that we allow scandals to go on for far too long. If we only investigated things properly right at the first signs of trouble they could be done and dusted in weeks or months. And there'd be no need for the whole panoply of inquiries etc. But this failure to investigate is endemic and is the one thing we get wrong over and over again.

    The PO disaster for instance could have been resolved in 2001 when concerns were first raised by Alan Bates or again in 2003. And it would not have needed a public inquiry to do so. Just bloody good fearless investigators and the will to do find out. It's the latter which is lacking.

    The same could be said of blood contamination, pretty much every financial scandal, Grenfell, many NHS ones, the BBC and Savile and the Panorama programme on Diana, the British Museum, and on and on and on.

    Good early investigation is the key to stopping a problem turning into a crisis.

    Good early investigation sadly can only happen if people stand up in senior ranks and say something is going wrong, their impulse is to believe they are so competent that nothing can be going wrong.

    Watching the same happen in my company right now...we at the less rarefied heights have told them why what they are asking for won't work, forecast the raft of things that will go wrong. Month by month we are ticking off all the things we predicted would happen as they occur in the project yet every month they tell the whole company how well the project is going.
  • AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
    Of course the reverse can be equally argued..electric cars can't be sold with high costs/lack of infrastructure..vaccines can't be promoted honestly when they don't stop transmission..🧐🥴
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,925
    Reading Cyclefree's piece about people who are prepared to take risks with other people's lives and think only of their own prestige, I found myself thinking....Musk,,, Musk,,, Musk.....

    I don't know why I thought that.....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,910

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
    The departure from reality about climate change is not really about the new breed of populists. The serious minded global conferences, political action and agreements have now being going on for a few decades. The net result thus far is that the continuing net output of CO2 is not falling but rising and very non populist China is still building coal fired power stations.

    Is it surprising that many voters have decided that the serious centrists as well as the oligarchs don't actually mean what they say?

    This is what happens when you stop pretending: If the science is right, then what it forsees is going to happen because there is no global will to stop it.

    The only chances: Mitigation; preparedness; tech solutions; hope for and look for the upside to be greater than the downside; hope the science is wrong.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I hope everyone had a lovely Xmas.

    I am now going to indulge in shameless self-promotion. I have spent much of the past few months writing a book on scandals and investigations: why the former happens, why they reasons they happen are the same - no matter what the sector - and why the inquiries and their usually sensible recommendations are ignored so that we can repeat the mistakes and tragedies over and over again.

    Would you believe there was a sensible inquiry into and report on public inquiries some 4 years which made a lot of useful recommendations to stop them being so long and expensive? It has been ignored and so another report has just come out saying the same things again and Please Do them THIS TIME.

    The book is probably rubbish, certainly needs considerable pruning and editing and may be of no commercial interest to anyone. But it has clarified my thoughts and so I will answer some of your questions.

    THE reason why inquiries are so long is that we allow scandals to go on for far too long. If we only investigated things properly right at the first signs of trouble they could be done and dusted in weeks or months. And there'd be no need for the whole panoply of inquiries etc. But this failure to investigate is endemic and is the one thing we get wrong over and over again.

    The PO disaster for instance could have been resolved in 2001 when concerns were first raised by Alan Bates or again in 2003. And it would not have needed a public inquiry to do so. Just bloody good fearless investigators and the will to do find out. It's the latter which is lacking.

    The same could be said of blood contamination, pretty much every financial scandal, Grenfell, many NHS ones, the BBC and Savile and the Panorama programme on Diana, the British Museum, and on and on and on.

    Good early investigation is the key to stopping a problem turning into a crisis.

    Good luck with the book!

    Here’s a graph of commercial aviation fatalities, which has now basically trended to zero even as the number of flights has risen exponentially. If you want a model of an industry utterly dedicated to eliminating accidents, this is it.



    Source: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/2023-10/statsum_summary_2022.pdf
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, in important news, Pakistan collapsing in an embarrassing heap. From 35/0 to 64/4, although Rizwan and Ghulam putting on a counter-attack.

    rounders on boxing day
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,464
    edited December 26
    Cyclefree said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The thing about aviation is that the NTSB et al run investigations to find out why the accident occurred so the causes can be fixed or mitigated rather than so that someone can be blamed. This has led to every accident being a learning experience which contributed to the incremental safety of air travel.

    There are a few exceptions to this but not many
    And to bang my drum once again: a good early investigation should always be about understanding what happened and why not about apportioning blame. If someone has messed up then find out why they messed up - it is not usually malice and try to address that.

    But the longer you wait the greater the desire to find someone to blame and the greater the risk that you ignore what really needs fixing.
    There does seem to be a problem in railways between thje 'what went wrong?' and the 'who do we blame?' elements - but then there always has been a clash between the two. Very evident from the start in the mid-C19.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,538
    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I hope everyone had a lovely Xmas.

    I am now going to indulge in shameless self-promotion. I have spent much of the past few months writing a book on scandals and investigations: why the former happens, why they reasons they happen are the same - no matter what the sector - and why the inquiries and their usually sensible recommendations are ignored so that we can repeat the mistakes and tragedies over and over again.

    Would you believe there was a sensible inquiry into and report on public inquiries some 4 years which made a lot of useful recommendations to stop them being so long and expensive? It has been ignored and so another report has just come out saying the same things again and Please Do them THIS TIME.

    The book is probably rubbish, certainly needs considerable pruning and editing and may be of no commercial interest to anyone. But it has clarified my thoughts and so I will answer some of your questions.

    THE reason why inquiries are so long is that we allow scandals to go on for far too long. If we only investigated things properly right at the first signs of trouble they could be done and dusted in weeks or months. And there'd be no need for the whole panoply of inquiries etc. But this failure to investigate is endemic and is the one thing we get wrong over and over again.

    The PO disaster for instance could have been resolved in 2001 when concerns were first raised by Alan Bates or again in 2003. And it would not have needed a public inquiry to do so. Just bloody good fearless investigators and the will to do find out. It's the latter which is lacking.

    The same could be said of blood contamination, pretty much every financial scandal, Grenfell, many NHS ones, the BBC and Savile and the Panorama programme on Diana, the British Museum, and on and on and on.

    Good early investigation is the key to stopping a problem turning into a crisis.

    Good early investigation sadly can only happen if people stand up in senior ranks and say something is going wrong, their impulse is to believe they are so competent that nothing can be going wrong.

    Watching the same happen in my company right now...we at the less rarefied heights have told them why what they are asking for won't work, forecast the raft of things that will go wrong. Month by month we are ticking off all the things we predicted would happen as they occur in the project yet every month they tell the whole company how well the project is going.
    Been there, done that. as a software and systems tester my four favourite words are generally 'I told you so'. The other common phrase I use is 'If I can't prove it, it's not right, if it's not right it doesn't go in the system'
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Welcome to the one day in the year where we unscrupulously try to work out the identities of posters - against their wishes.

    Happy Doxing Day...

    I reckon you could track down any regular on here with a modicum of effort. Two PBers have found me on Facebook...
    Unlike most PBers, I cannot recognise regular posters by their style or even their politics, but could probably dox most of us, given the number of clues we give as to what we do and who we work for, whether it be lawyers, IT workers, film makers, teachers and academics, even the odd politician. Jigsaw identification, iirc.
  • Cyclefree said:

    The Rogers Commission into the Space Shuttle disaster is best remembered for American celebrity physicist Richard Feynman demonstrating the O-rings' loss of elasticity when cold (and notice he uses degrees Fahrenheit!):-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raMmRKGkGD4

    Feynman also discovered, however, that Nasa managers did not properly understand the concept of safety factors, leading to fatal miscalculations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report

    Yes - his work on this is one of the most fascinating aspects of the book.

    Understanding risks properly is key to managing them effectively. True in lots of sectors: the financial world has given us a masterclass over decades on how poorly it understands the risks it is taking. I was surprised by NASA's failures on this, though.
    Get past the ego the size of the planet Jupiter stuff, and Feynman's account of the whole thing in "What do you care what other people think?" is fascinating.

    Basically, the people on the shop floor sniffed the air and came out with something like "it will blow up about 1 time in 100", whereas management had a reassuringly complex calculation that put the risk of failure much lower. Unfortunately, that calculation was based on numbers that must have been essentially made up.

    As for why this happens, I suspect that bureaucratic layers and "what do you want the answer to be?" culture don't help.

    The harder question is whether that is still preferable to the "whimsical despot" model of someone like Musk.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533
    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
    The departure from reality about climate change is not really about the new breed of populists. The serious minded global conferences, political action and agreements have now being going on for a few decades. The net result thus far is that the continuing net output of CO2 is not falling but rising and very non populist China is still building coal fired power stations.

    Is it surprising that many voters have decided that the serious centrists as well as the oligarchs don't actually mean what they say?

    This is what happens when you stop pretending: If the science is right, then what it forsees is going to happen because there is no global will to stop it.

    The only chances: Mitigation; preparedness; tech solutions; hope for and look for the upside to be greater than the downside; hope the science is wrong.
    the global conferences are a joke, thousands of arses flying round the world spending a fortune , emitting untold CO2 etc and only result is them living high on the hog for a week or two. Like the UN a bunch of parasites pretending they actually do something other than grift.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    See also Presidents Reagan and Biden; possibly GW Bush too. White House marble lossage is routinely covered up.
    Or the Republican congresswoman who has been in a dementia care home for the last 6 months and this only just came to light: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dc-age-biden-kay-granger-b2668696.html
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    What's he done that "deserves" a bauble?
    who the feck is he
    Jason Beer KC is the top lawyer on the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry into how they screwed the subpostmasters.
    Thank you DJL
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    See also Presidents Reagan and Biden; possibly GW Bush too. White House marble lossage is routinely covered up.
    Or the Republican congresswoman who has been in a dementia care home for the last 6 months and this only just came to light: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dc-age-biden-kay-granger-b2668696.html
    That was totally nuts, yet another shameful episode for the US political media.

    But when they can cover for the President being totally doolally, is it any surprise that they can cover for a Congresswoman?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,464
    O/T but potentially very important bit of news affecting almost all of us (well, some of us on holiday!):

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/26/defra-scraps-england-deadline-to-register-thousands-of-miles-of-rights-of-way
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Here is the problem with the progressive's sneer at the populist right - they know enough about our problems to actually *try* to get stuff done. Pop-right government's don't just crash and burn because they target the obvious stuff we all know is wrong and get on with targeting them.

    I heard an interview with the Polish foreign minister who talked about how they had defeated the pop-right - he said you have to go do stuff. Starmer is at least trying to go after the migration crisis - he's deported an awful lot of people in a relatively small amount of time.

    His problem? They aren't shouting it from the rafters. Had Farage become PM and started deporting people it would be *everywhere*. But that is the only thing Starmer is doing. There's an obvious list of stuff to target and Labour are in denial about chunks of them...
    he is not shouting because it is mainly Albanians, that was setup by the tories so not much to do with Labour.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Winning a UK election in 2029 may involve blaming foreigners, but the foreigners to blame may be Donald Trump and Elon Musk!

    Populist anger can point at different targets: e.g., the reaction to Luigi Mangione shooting Brian Thompson in the US. Johnsonian populism got kicked out by the UK electorate.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    At least as the World hurtles into recession, sorry depression, the Labour Government will crash and burn and we here in Brexitland will be delivered a shiny Nigel Farage (who has all the answers) premiership. I suspect right wing populism will become the new normal across the planet, even if Trump does crash Earth. He can always blame foreigners.

    Every cloud etc.
    Here is the problem with the progressive's sneer at the populist right - they know enough about our problems to actually *try* to get stuff done. Pop-right government's don't just crash and burn because they target the obvious stuff we all know is wrong and get on with targeting them.

    I heard an interview with the Polish foreign minister who talked about how they had defeated the pop-right - he said you have to go do stuff. Starmer is at least trying to go after the migration crisis - he's deported an awful lot of people in a relatively small amount of time.

    His problem? They aren't shouting it from the rafters. Had Farage become PM and started deporting people it would be *everywhere*. But that is the only thing Starmer is doing. There's an obvious list of stuff to target and Labour are in denial about chunks of them...
    And yet the Lib Dems are famous for doing reasonably well electorally for getting local stuff done like filling potholes. Wouldn't they be doing even better if that premise is good?
    They have a record number of MPs. That's pretty good going.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,228
    edited December 26
    Sandpit said:

    Battlebus said:

    As someone who ran an engineering company making safety critical parts for nuclear power and aircraft engines, the engineers were allowed to get on with the necessary testing and verification of parts/assemblies due to the customer. Your local nuclear plant has remained safe, and the planes you have flown on have arrived at their destination not only due to engineers but due to realistic customers paying what was necessary.

    Many of the issues regarding engineering failures comes down to penny pinching. Engineers know what they are doing.

    Indeed so. Ask Boeing how the last couple of decades of replacing engineers with MBAs in the management grades has gone.

    That said, the graph of commercial aviation accidents over time is utterly astonishing. Modern planes just don’t crash any more, unless they’re shot down.
    The problem is that we've tended to do this to extremes. The rail industry is a case in point - changing anything, no matter how trivial, has become so expensive it can't be done.

    I'm involved in such a saga at the moment. There is a wear plate on a vehicle bogie designed in the 1950s and still used in a substantial infrastructure maintenance fleet. It's a rectangular plate held in place by five fixings, with four arranged as a square and one in the middle at the end. There have been consistent problems with them coming lose in use, starting at the end with the single fixing. At some point, someone has obviously done the logical thing to fix this, so there are a few sets around with a bonus pair of fixing holes.
    We're doing a pile of rebuild and renewal work. We've had meetings and demos costing thousands just about these stupid wear plates. Can we upgrade to use 6/7 holes on these wear plates? No. The original drawings say five holes. Thou shalt not change from thy original drawings.
    Is there anything else we can do to stop them dropping to bits? Not really.

    Everybody is agreed that the extra fixings will fix the problem, but no one is willing to pay for the whole bogie design review required - not least as I think most of us think the whole bogie probably won't conform to modern safety factors, so probably won't pass a review anyway.

    Repeat this sort of thing thousands and thousands of times, and one begins to see why the railway network is so expensive.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    Speaking of 'nature cannot be fooled,' I assumed that Trump tweet @williamglenn regaled is with on the last thread was a parody.

    I now find it wasn't.

    Plus he had another one ranting about evil left wing judges.

    With any other person we'd be talking not just about the 25th but about him being sectioned. Trump is clearly off his head.

    In his last administration he was malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, displayed truly shocking judgement and a very thin skin and was totally incompetent but he was not actually insane. Nor did he have untrammelled power as he now does.

    The big worry, and this is why he should never have been nominated, is that he's surrounded by sycophants who won't do what is necessary to either constrain or remove him.

    When America lurches from crisis to crisis over the next four years Republicans (and the Supreme Court) have only themselves to blame, but I'm willing to bet that like NASA they will blame everyone else first.
    The even bigger worry is that Trump was put forward and financed by malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt bastards displaying truly shocking judgement - who intend to move him on using the 25th and install sombody who is so malign, lazy, dishonest, corrupt, and displaying truly shocking judgement that he would never have got elected in his own right.

    Step forward in 2025 President Vance.
    That's possible, but if so it was a rather silly strategy. The reason I say that is because under the procedure for invoking the 25th two thirds of Congress would be required to vote through a contested declaration of inability and that will happen when BJO declares for Starmer or Leon admits he's wrong about something.

    They could of course just get rid of Trump. Unexplained heart attack, maybe?
    If Trump is demonstrably bonkers, what are Congress going to do? Keep the mad bastard in place? With the nuclear codes?

    Vance was on the ticket. America knew who would step up if Trump fell down.
    They did with Nixon until Agnew was replaced by Ford.

    Thing is, there's not much evidence Vance is any saner.
    See also Presidents Reagan and Biden; possibly GW Bush too. White House marble lossage is routinely covered up.
    Or the Republican congresswoman who has been in a dementia care home for the last 6 months and this only just came to light: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dc-age-biden-kay-granger-b2668696.html
    That was totally nuts, yet another shameful episode for the US political media.

    But when they can cover for the President being totally doolally, is it any surprise that they can cover for a Congresswoman?
    Lot more in there are doolally for sure
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    Not much football in Uktraine's no man's land yesterday - another 1,540 Russian/North Korean casualties on Christmas Day.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,564
    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Good morning, everybody.

    @Cyclefree, thanks for another hard-hitting article. This was the stand-out sentence for me:

    ''For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.”

    Not only applicable for successful technologies.

    A(nother) great article from Cyclefree.

    It is the departure from reality that is most worrying about the recent surge of populist politics. Pretending climate change isn’t real won’t stop its effects. Pretending vaccines are dangerous will kill. And so on.
    The departure from reality about climate change is not really about the new breed of populists. The serious minded global conferences, political action and agreements have now being going on for a few decades. The net result thus far is that the continuing net output of CO2 is not falling but rising and very non populist China is still building coal fired power stations.

    Is it surprising that many voters have decided that the serious centrists as well as the oligarchs don't actually mean what they say?

    This is what happens when you stop pretending: If the science is right, then what it forsees is going to happen because there is no global will to stop it.

    The only chances: Mitigation; preparedness; tech solutions; hope for and look for the upside to be greater than the downside; hope the science is wrong.
    One can make a case that the approach to tackling climate change is wrong, and that a better one would involve mitigation, preparedness, tech solutions etc. But that's not what, say, the Republican Party in the US is doing. No, they just deny that anything is happening (and ban it being mentioned in schools, and ban data being collected on it). For example: https://climate.law.columbia.edu/content/arizona-senate-republicans-pass-bill-prevent-climate-action
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    Cyclefree said:

    Fishing said:

    Of course inquiries are long, expensive and pointless.

    Politicians need a way to dodge questions so there's a whole industry to support. Cynical, parasitical lawyers and consultants have to eat somehow and useless judges need some form of retirement income - God forbid they should rely on their gold-plated pensions.

    The inquiry industry also explains why building new infrastructure costs four times what it should and gives us ridiculous bat tunnels.

    Look at the praise this very PB garlanded on barristers at the inquiries into Covid and the Post Office, but also the complaints they seemed concerned mainly with process and tittle-tattle rather than lessons for next time. Discovering which minister dropped the ball (which turns out to be most of them) is of little real use because they won't be in office when the next crisis hits.
    The Covid inquiry has seemed to me to be pointless.

    But what the PO Inquiry has done - very well to my mind, though it shames my profession to have to say this but it needs saying, indeed shouting from the rooftops - is show that it is not in reality an IT scandal at all but a legal one. That was not clear until the inquiry and was one reason why the story took so long to gain traction.

    What happened was created by lawyers, perpetrated by lawyers and covered up by lawyers. The IT system was merely the mechanism. Every part of the legal profession has been shown wanting. It is like the GFC for the legal profession in every part of the U.K., from the Ministry of Justice and Attorney-General down. The fact that there have been heroic lawyers working to put it right does not change this depressing fact. Even now I don't think that the legal profession as a whole has understood the very great harm this scandal has done it. Nor the amount of hard work which is needed to put it right.

    The Inquiry has shed a harsh light on the legal profession's dirty little secrets: that fact too many of those working in it are second and third rate, too many focus on clever tactics or clever answers to limited questions, too many ignore the essential ethical underpinnings of their work, too many forget that there is a difference between what the client wants and what the client needs and that a good lawyer needs to understand that difference especially when working in-house and too many are unwilling to call out bad behaviour. There are too many well remunerated cowards in the upper reaches of the profession and we saw some of them on show in the Inquiry.

    It has also focused very much on the human impact of the tragedy and has put the subpostmasters and their stories at the heart of the evidence. That was a deliberate decision by the judge and inquiry counsel and very much to their credit. It happened too long before the ITV drama.

    What it has also shown - though less obviously- is how the state abandoned its responsibilities for the criminal justice system. I have written a whole chapter on this re the PO and how it has happened elsewhere too. It is a theme - the same retreat from essential state obligations leads to great harm to citizens (Grenfell/ blood contamination) and the state then does everything it can to wash its hands of any responsibility for putting matters right or helping those affected.

    This political retreat from essential state responsibilities is so corrosive of trust in the state and in politics. It is to my mind the most important political issue to put right and no-one in politics seems to have the first idea how to do this or even how big a problem it is. If anything their actions make it worse. Destroy trust and society starts failing (and politics becomes unworkable).
    This is not recent either. Look at Aberfan - how the state behaved there both before, during and after is the template for how it has behaved in many tragedies / scandals since then.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    Not much football in Uktraine's no man's land yesterday - another 1,540 Russian/North Korean casualties on Christmas Day.

    There’s suggestions online that the NorKs are actually their good soldiers, rather than the idiot conscripts many of us had thought they’d sent. If the good soldiers are getting killed at a rate of over a thousand a day, then their army isn’t going to last too long in an actual war.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,015
    edited December 26
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a brilliant header, well done Mrs @Cyclefree

    As someone for whom the Challenger disaster was one of his earliest news memories, aged eight at the time, the inquiry and reporting on the incident have always struck a nerve. It only took a couple of days before the playground jokes started about NASA being an acronym for Need Another Seven Astronauts, but only later when reading the material on the disaster (incuding Adam Higginbotham’s excellent book) did it dawn on me just how much it was a human failure rather than a technological one, on that cold January day.

    Almost everyone involved in the project knew that it wasn’t safe to launch the Shuttle in freezing ambient temperatures, yet somehow they all convinced each other it was going to be fine, because it was more important to keep going than to be the one who called stop when it needed to be stopped. The O-rings in the boosters had almost failed before, and a disaster had been averted more by luck than by judgement. They’d delayed STS-51-L several times already, and the senior management at NASA were very keen to avoid further delays to the mission.

    Making things worse on the day, was that one of the mission tasks was an outreach programme to American schoolchildren about spaceflight, called the Teacher In Space project. Astronaut Christa McAucliffe was to be the first teacher in space, having won a national competition, and would be giving lessons from orbit. For this reason millions of American kids watched the disaster unfold live, on televisions brought into classrooms and assembly halls across the country. Thousands of teachers had to explain to the children what had just happened, minutes after the event.

    Reagan’s address to the Nation that evening was a masterclass in communication, something from which today’s politicians can learn a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7icmqgsow

    I’m sure that, like the rest of us, he was absolutely furious when he discovered what had actually happened in the lead up to the decision to fly. Nixon had pre-recorded several addresses to be broadcast in the event of the Apollo 11 mission failing, because he said that he couldn’t have coped with having to do it live. Reagan’s words that day, incuding the extract from John Magee’s poem that’s been read at the funerals of many aviators over the decades, perfectly captured the mood of the public at the time.

    There’s obviously so much that can be learned from the disaster, from the treatment of whistleblowers to the need for timely investigations into incidents, but sadly NASA needed yet another seven astronauts only a few years later, after Shuttle Columbia succumbed to yet another well-known issue that the system failed to properly address before a disaster occurred.

    Right, now back to the LEGO.

    An interesting book I am reading currently, by Dan Davies, titled the Unaccountability Machine, draws on the history of cybernetics to argue that large organisations can be considered a form of artificial intelligence, with the people working within largely applying preset policies to each situation as it comes along with no-one exercising real accountability or discretion. It’s a thought provoking read with lots of examples of organisations doing counter-productive things for which no-one turns out to be personally accountable, usually when a general policy meets an unanticipated circumstance.

    Clearly his thesis is pertinent to a range of topical scandals including many covered in leads by our own Sig.ra Ciclolibero. Despite our thirst for holding individuals involved in such scandals to account afterwards, the reality is that you could swap out all the people and run the simulation again, and get exactly the same outcome, because it’s the system design that drives how the people within it are behaving.
    Depressing thought for sub-postmasters...
    Fingers crossed for a knighthood for Jason Beer in the New Year’s Honours list.
    My prediction for next year, Jason Beer is going to be very unpopular.

    He's lead counsel for Greater Manchester Police in the Malkinson Inquiry and he's going to look like an utter shit for trying to defend the utterly indefensible
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, I hope everyone had a lovely Xmas.

    I am now going to indulge in shameless self-promotion. I have spent much of the past few months writing a book on scandals and investigations: why the former happens, why they reasons they happen are the same - no matter what the sector - and why the inquiries and their usually sensible recommendations are ignored so that we can repeat the mistakes and tragedies over and over again.

    Would you believe there was a sensible inquiry into and report on public inquiries some 4 years which made a lot of useful recommendations to stop them being so long and expensive? It has been ignored and so another report has just come out saying the same things again and Please Do them THIS TIME.

    The book is probably rubbish, certainly needs considerable pruning and editing and may be of no commercial interest to anyone. But it has clarified my thoughts and so I will answer some of your questions.

    THE reason why inquiries are so long is that we allow scandals to go on for far too long. If we only investigated things properly right at the first signs of trouble they could be done and dusted in weeks or months. And there'd be no need for the whole panoply of inquiries etc. But this failure to investigate is endemic and is the one thing we get wrong over and over again.

    The PO disaster for instance could have been resolved in 2001 when concerns were first raised by Alan Bates or again in 2003. And it would not have needed a public inquiry to do so. Just bloody good fearless investigators and the will to do find out. It's the latter which is lacking.

    The same could be said of blood contamination, pretty much every financial scandal, Grenfell, many NHS ones, the BBC and Savile and the Panorama programme on Diana, the British Museum, and on and on and on.

    Good early investigation is the key to stopping a problem turning into a crisis.

    Good luck with the book!

    Here’s a graph of commercial aviation fatalities, which has now basically trended to zero even as the number of flights has risen exponentially. If you want a model of an industry utterly dedicated to eliminating accidents, this is it.



    Source: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/2023-10/statsum_summary_2022.pdf
    The fatalaties happening in civil aviation are now largely down to (mostly Russian) missiles bringing them down. As looks to be the case with yesterday's Azeri plane.
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