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How tomorrow’s vote is shaping up – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    biggles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Polish PM Donald Tusk said he wants to launch a “navy policing” program to secure the Baltic Sea against Russian threats. "If Europe is united, then Russia is a technological, financial & economic dwarf in relation to Europe.” This follows cutting of several data cables in the Baltic Sea.
    https://x.com/GlasnostGone/status/1861801948850094358

    Now there is an operational requirement for the RN around our islands.
    Doesn't require carriers, obvs.

    Actually, for sea control, carriers are vital. Flying from land involves longer distances, which means shorter times actually on station and huge resources to get aircraft there.
    And to reinforce Norway, absent US support, carrier aviation in the North Sea is vital.

    As is the ability to land the Royal Marines in force. Ah….
    There was some fascinating stuff, back in the 80s, about the Invincibles hiding in Norwegian fjords for exercises and hammering the opposition with unexpected airstrikes.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,316

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    Even St Andrew's?
    Actually, probably not St Andrew’s - and that’s not because my eldest is there

    I reckon a few elite universities around the world WILL likely survive as posh finishing schools/academies for the very bright. Generally those with great history or intrinsic charm or a fabulous reputation. So in the UK maybe Oxbridge, St Andrews, UCL, Imperial… after that I start to struggle. And even those will shrink

    It’s going to be devastating for lots of towns and lots of careers, but I see no way around it. The financial maths is about to collapse as technology renders teachers and teaching obsolete and absurdly expensive
    Okay I could let it slide the first time, I thought it might be an autocorrect fail. But St Andrews does not have an apostrophe!
    Pure Scottish affectation. In England there is no reason why it should not.
    Cough St Albans Cough.
    An invitation to dine at Queen's could leave one racing breathlessly from Liverpool Street to Paddington after noticing the position of the apostrophe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited November 28
    Someone should note that Australia has just banned virtually ALL social media for under-16s

    https://x.com/nytimes/status/1862110750656917897?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    Fortunately I reckon the average age of PBers is some way north of that so we shouldn’t lose any valued antipodean commenters
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Scott_xP said:

    You'd think that Assisted Dying would be the ultimate culture wars issue. Nasty wokeys trying to kill your gran.

    But no - it would seem that the real issue is the globalist conspiracy against cash.

    We truly are adrift as a country...

    Do Dignitas take cash or are they solely card only ?
    Be like Bond - keep a few gold sovs about you to get out of tricky spots...
    You can still buy the original model of that briefcase

    https://swaine.london/products/bond-attache-3-5
    Nah - no use without the throwing knives....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    Nigelb said:

    Polish PM Donald Tusk said he wants to launch a “navy policing” program to secure the Baltic Sea against Russian threats. "If Europe is united, then Russia is a technological, financial & economic dwarf in relation to Europe.” This follows cutting of several data cables in the Baltic Sea.
    https://x.com/GlasnostGone/status/1861801948850094358

    Now there is an operational requirement for the RN around our islands.
    Doesn't require carriers, obvs.

    Actually, for sea control, carriers are vital. Flying from land involves longer distances, which means shorter times actually on station and huge resources to get aircraft there.
    That is to misunderstand the point.

    We're not going to be fighting any naval battles against Russia around our coastal waters (which don't involve subs). Apart from anything else, they don't have much of an operationally capable navy either.
    But we do need to be able to do something, possibly on a regular basis, about the kind of thing which just happened in the Baltic Sea. And we don't have the vessels for that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,880
    edited November 28
    This is a heads up for Active Travel, and perhaps public transport, and driving, people.

    The APPG on Walking and Cycling are doing an enquiry into Active Travel and Social Justice. Evidence can be submitted until Dec 16th.

    It's quite important as this will be a major input into the current Road Safety Review, which will set the direction for maybe a decade.

    I'll be arguing on a range of points - some obvious such as Tactile Paving (road signs for blind people), to be in regulations (like road signs) not guidelines (which can be ignored by Councils at will), mobility aid storage to be a requirement in Residents Parking Schemes, and cycles of all types to be recognised officially as mobility aids where used by disabled people. Plus all barriers to removed from footpaths (obvs).

    The individual and societal benefits of active travel are both very large and well-evidenced. More people travelling actively is an effective response to a host of major challenges, from our public health crisis to climate change, and it is widely accepted that major growth in active travel is essential to the UK’s response to all of these.

    It is therefore of great concern that many people in the UK do not enjoy access to (all) the benefits of active travel.

    https://appgcw.org/2024/11/12/active-travel-and-social-justice-inquiry/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012
    Nigelb said:

    Here's another extrapolation of the future.

    The Invisible Man
    We see right through the unshowered soul living in a car by the beach, or by the Walmart, or by the side of the road. But he’s there, and he used to be somebody. He still is. A firsthand account of homelessness in America.

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a62875397/homelessness-in-america/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBESQ&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook
    ...I’m parked in the public lot across from the beach, sitting in the front passenger seat, working on a novel. An SUV police cruiser pulls in front of me, parks close, at an angle, as if to block me from a would-be escape. This officer is a young blond woman in a bulletproof vest with a pistol strapped to her abdomen. She says, “We received some calls. People are concerned.”

    “Yes?”

    “They see you out here and are concerned.”

    She doesn’t say who these “concerned” people are, but the only ones who can see me are the owners of large beachfront houses. Maybe they’re looking out their $3 million windows and seeing the consequences of their avarice.

    “What are your plans for the day?” she says.

    She’s trying to get me to move along, but the lot is open to the public from dawn to dusk. I have every right to be here.

    “Write,” I say.

    “What do you write?”

    “Literary fiction. I was a reporter.”

    “Anywhere I know?”

    “The Boston Globe.”

    Her eyes open wide and she tosses her head back in recognition. She realizes I’m not dissolute and not a threat. She asks for my license and calls it in. Dispatch lets her know I have no criminal record or outstanding warrants.

    “Do you need anything?” she says.

    “Do you know if the homeless shelter will let me take a shower?”

    She asks dispatch to call the shelter. Dispatch comes back. She says, “Yes.”

    “Good,” I say. “Thanks.”

    “You can’t stay here at night,” she says. “You can stay at Walmart, in the back parking lot.”

    “Okay.”

    She gives me her card. She leaves. I stay. I have every right to be here.

    I go to Walmart that night and will sleep there every night. But the police will continue to come as if I’m some kind of one-man crime wave. Before I’m chased out of Westerly, I will meet, stand my ground, and lose ground to a dozen different officers, often at night, banging on my window and waking me just to ask, “Are you all right?” The question begins to sound like a pretense.

    The officers are civil, but every encounter causes me apprehension and stress. I’m innocent of any wrongdoing, but the interaction between a citizen and law enforcement is unbalanced by nature. They are part of an apparatus that can take away a person’s freedom. I know it, and they certainly know it...

    Hmm...It is an offence to be drunk or indeed high on drugs in charge of a car, even if they can't prove any intention to drive it. A person apparently sleeping in a car is going to alert law enforcement about that possible offence. A medical emergency is another possibility. As is someone kerb crawling. I am not sure I see a lot wrong with what the officers are doing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    I have achieved escape velocity - I have left Scotland....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Leon said:

    Someone should note that Australia has just banned virtually ALL social media for under-16s

    https://x.com/nytimes/status/1862110750656917897?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    From the land that gave us -

    “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia”
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,012

    I have achieved escape velocity - I have left Scotland....

    We are undoubtedly the poorer for your absence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Why do you think the current model of teaching is doomed? I'm intrigued. What do you think the time at Uni is adding to students? It certainly isn't just 3/4 years of facts (facts can be googled). What do Pharmacy students learn over 4 years? Arguably they learn to be a pharmacist and thats a lot more than most people realise.
    I'd say Pharmacy ought to be one of the relatively few things to survive. But come on, four years? It shouldn't really take four years and, what, £60k of debt to get into pharmacy.
    A friend of mine's son has just come back from Aberystwyth, where he did geography; he is now an apprentice pharmacist - which he will be for a year, before becoming a pharmacist. I would argue that this is a much more effective way of learning to become a pharmacist, and that it also shows that his geography degree was largely pointless (though no doubt there is some stuff in there of general relevance).
    I very much doubt this "he is now an apprentice pharmacist - which he will be for a year, before becoming a pharmacist". As far as I know you need to have a GPHC registered pharmacy degree and then pass the pre-reg to be a pharmacist. Are you sure he is not training as a dispenser?
    In all honesty I was rather taken aback by this. I'd assumed to get to this position he'd have taken a pharmacy degree, but, no, geography. So if you're telling me this is likely bollocks I'm not massively surprised.

    On your other point: I don't want to be rude about your career, which is clearly one you need a lot of technical knowledge for - but I would have thought if a doctor could be one after 5 years of studenting, a pharmacist would need - what - half that? And that is still more than most professions: accountants, lawyers, town planners: the three years of whatever undergraduate degree they do before training in their particular profession is almost entirely superfluous. I would argue that, for example, the lawyer who does a three year history degree before doing a two year law conversion course could just as well have skipped the history degree. The expectation of some sort of generic degree is an expensive hangover from another era. Sadly it's not one I expect to see rectified before my daughters get to 18.
    There does need to be some sort of replacement for the training in independent thinking allied with collaborative study which university is at least supposed to provide, though.
    Granted, that might well not be a three year residential course.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,897
    Just noting that 10 year gilt yields have fallen below their pre-Budget level. I know PB Tories like to keep a close eye on market developments but for some reason have been somewhat silent on recent moves.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Polish PM Donald Tusk said he wants to launch a “navy policing” program to secure the Baltic Sea against Russian threats. "If Europe is united, then Russia is a technological, financial & economic dwarf in relation to Europe.” This follows cutting of several data cables in the Baltic Sea.
    https://x.com/GlasnostGone/status/1861801948850094358

    Now there is an operational requirement for the RN around our islands.
    Doesn't require carriers, obvs.

    Actually, for sea control, carriers are vital. Flying from land involves longer distances, which means shorter times actually on station and huge resources to get aircraft there.
    That is to misunderstand the point.

    We're not going to be fighting any naval battles against Russia around our coastal waters (which don't involve subs). Apart from anything else, they don't have much of an operationally capable navy either.
    But we do need to be able to do something, possibly on a regular basis, about the kind of thing which just happened in the Baltic Sea. And we don't have the vessels for that.
    We have some of them. We need more. Carriers in and around the Baltic make a lot of sense. Which is why they have been a regular part of NATO exercises in that region since the Cold War began.
  • The cash killers clearly condone cancellation of my Christmas tips

    You can all fuck right off
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,880
    edited November 28
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Why do you think the current model of teaching is doomed? I'm intrigued. What do you think the time at Uni is adding to students? It certainly isn't just 3/4 years of facts (facts can be googled). What do Pharmacy students learn over 4 years? Arguably they learn to be a pharmacist and thats a lot more than most people realise.
    I'd say Pharmacy ought to be one of the relatively few things to survive. But come on, four years? It shouldn't really take four years and, what, £60k of debt to get into pharmacy.
    A friend of mine's son has just come back from Aberystwyth, where he did geography; he is now an apprentice pharmacist - which he will be for a year, before becoming a pharmacist. I would argue that this is a much more effective way of learning to become a pharmacist, and that it also shows that his geography degree was largely pointless (though no doubt there is some stuff in there of general relevance).
    I very much doubt this "he is now an apprentice pharmacist - which he will be for a year, before becoming a pharmacist". As far as I know you need to have a GPHC registered pharmacy degree and then pass the pre-reg to be a pharmacist. Are you sure he is not training as a dispenser?
    In all honesty I was rather taken aback by this. I'd assumed to get to this position he'd have taken a pharmacy degree, but, no, geography. So if you're telling me this is likely bollocks I'm not massively surprised.

    On your other point: I don't want to be rude about your career, which is clearly one you need a lot of technical knowledge for - but I would have thought if a doctor could be one after 5 years of studenting, a pharmacist would need - what - half that? And that is still more than most professions: accountants, lawyers, town planners: the three years of whatever undergraduate degree they do before training in their particular profession is almost entirely superfluous. I would argue that, for example, the lawyer who does a three year history degree before doing a two year law conversion course could just as well have skipped the history degree. The expectation of some sort of generic degree is an expensive hangover from another era. Sadly it's not one I expect to see rectified before my daughters get to 18.
    Pharmacy is aiui a pharmacy degree, plus a foundation year in role, then a test by the professional body, and THEN you can register with the General Pharmacy Council as a pharmacist.

    Back when I was at Uni back in the 1980s I shared house with Pharmacists who were on a 4 year sandwich course which gave more direct entry on leaving University.

    I just don't see it from a different degree, due to the wide range of knowledge needed, unless maybe there is a taught Masters Degree for conversion.

    https://www.kingseducation.com/kings-life/how-to-become-a-pharmacist
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Andrea Jenkyns is the MTG of British politics. Reform seems a good home for her!

    If anyone ever mentions the fact I helped her get elected in 2015 is getting exiled to ConHome.
    Regrets? I've had a few....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835

    The cash killers clearly condone cancellation of my Christmas tips

    You can all fuck right off

    Time to change career. £100 a week for sitting on your arse:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14131441/immigrants-posing-female-uber-drivers-eats.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
    I think it might end up nearer 1% than 10%. Either way unis are heading for collapse
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835

    The cash killers clearly condone cancellation of my Christmas tips

    You can all fuck right off

    Do you have to report these for tax?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    Even St Andrew's?
    Actually, probably not St Andrew’s - and that’s not because my eldest is there

    I reckon a few elite universities around the world WILL likely survive as posh finishing schools/academies for the very bright. Generally those with great history or intrinsic charm or a fabulous reputation. So in the UK maybe Oxbridge, St Andrews, UCL, Imperial… after that I start to struggle. And even those will shrink

    It’s going to be devastating for lots of towns and lots of careers, but I see no way around it. The financial maths is about to collapse as technology renders teachers and teaching obsolete and absurdly expensive
    If technology renders even teachers obsolete, a job less easily automated, then most permanent jobs will be doomed.

    In which case most of us won't be working full time and will largely live off a UBI funded by a robot tax on the big corporations
    Why is teaching not easily automated?! It’s just a face talking - these days over a screen, quite often. A robot teacher who is available 24/7 with endless empathy and an IQ of 350 and who is specifically bespoke-made, to your individual learning needs and desires, will be vastly superior to a flesh-and-blood teacher who takes maternity leave
    The knowledge bit can be automated, and (with effort) the "you made this mistake which reveals this misunderstanding" bit can be.

    But there's a bit of teaching, the ghost in the machine, that is about one person interacting with another. Or, more commonly, twenty others at once. Keeping them thinking about the matter in hand. Knowing when to kick and when to cosset. Take that away, and you get the suckiness of lockdown learning, or the limited brilliance of something like the Open University.

    Someone once said that the last careers would be priests and prostitutes. Pedagogues have a lot in common with both of them.
    If I’m allowed to discuss this without being banned, I could show you stuff that would blow your mind it you really believe what you say. You are completely 100% wrong, and wrong in ways you probably don’t even imagine

    But I don’t think I am allowed, so I’ll give up and talk about UFOs instead

    The flap is ongoing and it gets weirder and weirder. There ARE now multiple videos but they are all hugely unimpressive. So WTF is going on? What’s got the RAF and USAF so freaked they are scrambling fighters and choppers? Mass hysteria?
    I've no idea about defence capabilities or any military stuff, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that Russia might be scouting out possible opportunities to stage some sort of "incident" in the UK, just to show that they can, in retaliation for the use of British missiles on Russia. Something that is plausibly deniable but still obvious in its origin.
  • Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    Even St Andrew's?
    Actually, probably not St Andrew’s - and that’s not because my eldest is there

    I reckon a few elite universities around the world WILL likely survive as posh finishing schools/academies for the very bright. Generally those with great history or intrinsic charm or a fabulous reputation. So in the UK maybe Oxbridge, St Andrews, UCL, Imperial… after that I start to struggle. And even those will shrink

    It’s going to be devastating for lots of towns and lots of careers, but I see no way around it. The financial maths is about to collapse as technology renders teachers and teaching obsolete and absurdly expensive
    If technology renders even teachers obsolete, a job less easily automated, then most permanent jobs will be doomed.

    In which case most of us won't be working full time and will largely live off a UBI funded by a robot tax on the big corporations
    Why is teaching not easily automated?! It’s just a face talking - these days over a screen, quite often. A robot teacher who is available 24/7 with endless empathy and an IQ of 350 and who is specifically bespoke-made, to your individual learning needs and desires, will be vastly superior to a flesh-and-blood teacher who takes maternity leave
    When robots can control a class of rowdy 14 year olds as well you may have a point
    ED-209 can do that.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    Ouch….
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Polish PM Donald Tusk said he wants to launch a “navy policing” program to secure the Baltic Sea against Russian threats. "If Europe is united, then Russia is a technological, financial & economic dwarf in relation to Europe.” This follows cutting of several data cables in the Baltic Sea.
    https://x.com/GlasnostGone/status/1861801948850094358

    Now there is an operational requirement for the RN around our islands.
    Doesn't require carriers, obvs.

    Actually, for sea control, carriers are vital. Flying from land involves longer distances, which means shorter times actually on station and huge resources to get aircraft there.
    That is to misunderstand the point.

    We're not going to be fighting any naval battles against Russia around our coastal waters (which don't involve subs). Apart from anything else, they don't have much of an operationally capable navy either.
    But we do need to be able to do something, possibly on a regular basis, about the kind of thing which just happened in the Baltic Sea. And we don't have the vessels for that.
    We have some of them. We need more. Carriers in and around the Baltic make a lot of sense. Which is why they have been a regular part of NATO exercises in that region since the Cold War began.
    And Trump renders them more necessary, not less. In the Cold War we could always assume a U.S. carrier battle group or two would be well placed so we could focus on our roles. Together with the French (and to a lesser extent the Spanish and Italians) we now have to be ready to replace them as best we can.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    https://x.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1862127644222832894

    Happy Thanksgiving to all, including to the Radical Left Lunatics who have worked so hard to destroy our Country, but who have miserably failed, and will always fail, because their ideas and policies are so hopelessly bad that the great people of our Nation just gave a landslide victory to those who want to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! Don’t worry, our Country will soon be respected, productive, fair, and strong, and you will be, more than ever before, proud to be an American!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    Nigelb said:

    I see Trump is claiming to have already solved the Mexico border and drug crisis.

    Is that a sign that he doesn't intend to go ahead with tariffs "on day one" ?
    It's really impossible at this stage to work out how exactly he's going to govern. Other than erratically.

    Which has been demonstrated to hurt investment in the US economy, but that's a pain that voters won't notice in the short term.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Just noting that 10 year gilt yields have fallen below their pre-Budget level. I know PB Tories like to keep a close eye on market developments but for some reason have been somewhat silent on recent moves.

    LOL :D
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    Even St Andrew's?
    Actually, probably not St Andrew’s - and that’s not because my eldest is there

    I reckon a few elite universities around the world WILL likely survive as posh finishing schools/academies for the very bright. Generally those with great history or intrinsic charm or a fabulous reputation. So in the UK maybe Oxbridge, St Andrews, UCL, Imperial… after that I start to struggle. And even those will shrink

    It’s going to be devastating for lots of towns and lots of careers, but I see no way around it. The financial maths is about to collapse as technology renders teachers and teaching obsolete and absurdly expensive
    If technology renders even teachers obsolete, a job less easily automated, then most permanent jobs will be doomed.

    In which case most of us won't be working full time and will largely live off a UBI funded by a robot tax on the big corporations
    Why is teaching not easily automated?! It’s just a face talking - these days over a screen, quite often. A robot teacher who is available 24/7 with endless empathy and an IQ of 350 and who is specifically bespoke-made, to your individual learning needs and desires, will be vastly superior to a flesh-and-blood teacher who takes maternity leave
    When robots can control a class of rowdy 14 year olds as well you may have a point
    ED-209 can do that.
    Some paperwork required afterwards though….
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    Ouch….
    25/25/25/10/10/5 at the next GE could deliver anything.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    No one will see the supposed “fall” - so both parties should be terrified

    They will just be stunned by the absurdly high number. This is net migration of more than 1% of the entire UK population in just one year

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1862067605378359614?s=46

    🚨 BREAKING: Net migration fell by 20% to 728,000 from 906,000 in the year from June 2023 to June 2024

    That's politically interesting.

    That's all pre-election, so the Conservatives can claim some credit, even aside from the X hundred million thrown at Rwanda.

    Three months more of bunfight before Sir Keir's feet can be held to the fire.

    Bookmark my other post for a review in late February :smile: .
    Don't forget the earlier official figure for the twelve months to June 2023 was 680,000 so Labour have added a whopping extra 25% to the figure by modified counting.

    Anyway a buoyant Chris Philp was celebrating a victorious Conservative reduction for the year to June '24 from 680,000 to 728,000. Well done Chris!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    DavidL said:

    I have achieved escape velocity - I have left Scotland....

    We are undoubtedly the poorer for your absence.
    What’s he stolen now?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888

    Sky chart on immigration

    Boats 30,000

    Other Asylum 70,000

    Safe and legal routes [Ukraine, etc ] 73,000

    Family 87,000

    Study 444,000

    Work 453,000

    The vast majority is for work and study, but for Starmer stopping the boats will remain key even though it is 30,000 as Farage goes full on Trump over the gross numbers as he has just done in a news conference

    Well the study route has been flushed down the toilet at the expense of the highly lucrative foreign earning higher education sector.
  • Just noting that 10 year gilt yields have fallen below their pre-Budget level. I know PB Tories like to keep a close eye on market developments but for some reason have been somewhat silent on recent moves.

    I'm sure even the most simple minded of us will remember that the 10 year gilt yields rose dramatically in the weeks leading up to the budget. Come back to us when they are below that point, or mid September, or even GE date, or even at the start of the year. And how much extra the borrowing in this self-inflicted period will have cost us.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    A squeeze might be the wrong way to think of it. Labour will face a pincer movement with Reform as the bigger immediate threat.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
    A top education is always the preserve of the top by definition.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited November 28

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited November 28

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited November 28

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    Incredible plunge for Labour. They’re heading for the teens*

    *stop sniggering
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    edited November 28

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    A squeeze might be the wrong way to think of it. Labour will face a pincer movement with Reform as the bigger immediate threat.
    There may be a bit of that - but FPTP means a squeeze is inevitable.

    Pretty depressing poll for this of the liberal persuasion, but Labour have messed the bed so far, in government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Just noting that 10 year gilt yields have fallen below their pre-Budget level. I know PB Tories like to keep a close eye on market developments but for some reason have been somewhat silent on recent moves.

    I'm sure even the most simple minded of us will remember that the 10 year gilt yields rose dramatically in the weeks leading up to the budget. Come back to us when they are below that point, or mid September, or even GE date, or even at the start of the year. And how much extra the borrowing in this self-inflicted period will have cost us.
    Laughable. Clearly you weren't here on Budget Day to witness the unedifying spectacle of the PB Tories breathlessly posting hourly updates to gilt yields, talking the economy down. Embarrassing stuff.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    A squeeze might be the wrong way to think of it. Labour will face a pincer movement with Reform as the bigger immediate threat.
    There may be a bit of that - but FPTP means a squeeze is inevitable.

    Pretty depressing poll for this of the liberal persuasion, but Labour have messed the bed so far.
    Leondamus has been telling you for some time that Britain is not immune to the hard right wards shift of the whole western world. We’re just delayed by Brexit
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?
    If you're thinking of Mayor of the North East, that one is what it says on the tin. It's all of County Durham, Northumberland and the Tyne / Wear urban authorities.

    Agree about Bristol and Birmingham though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    That would doom the Tories forever. Not gonna happen
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    This should be put on Reform election leaflets. A vote for the Tories is a vote for the uniparty that's given us mass immigration for 25 years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    HYUFD said:
    Was this pre-arranged some time ago or is it some kind of signalling about assisted dying bill from Rayner?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    The next election is too far off for now.

    For now, there's no great love for either of the two "parties of government", but none of their possible replacements are getting much, either.
    And the next result might be even less representative of how the electorate voted than was the last. FPTP makes casting an effective vote a huge lottery on those numbers.
  • By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
    I think it might end up nearer 1% than 10%. Either way unis are heading for collapse
    You are the perfect example of a humanities grad who has no understanding of how science or engineering is taught or done.

    But then your limited understanding of LLMs

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?
    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    HYUFD said:
    Was this pre-arranged some time ago or is it some kind of signalling about assisted dying bill from Rayner?
    I don't think anyone gets to just drop in on the Pope without extensive pre-planning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    A squeeze might be the wrong way to think of it. Labour will face a pincer movement with Reform as the bigger immediate threat.
    There may be a bit of that - but FPTP means a squeeze is inevitable.

    Pretty depressing poll for this of the liberal persuasion, but Labour have messed the bed so far.
    Leondamus has been telling you for some time that Britain is not immune to the hard right wards shift of the whole western world. We’re just delayed by Brexit
    I do at least have that call as grounds for hope.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    "What idiot put you in charge ?"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
    I think it might end up nearer 1% than 10%. Either way unis are heading for collapse
    You are the perfect example of a humanities grad who has no understanding of how science or engineering is taught or done.

    But then your limited understanding of LLMs

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?
    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Mate. You can’t even do BLOCKQUOTES
  • Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    a

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A friend, who did a PhD in art history, argued for a version of the Grand Tour. Spend 8 months, each, in 6 different major cultural cities. Work as a barista or similar, spend your spare time sketching in the museums. At the end of the 4 years, you would have a chunk of the language, friends, a knowledge of the culture and how to navigate it.
    Yes, exactly, as time passes something like that will be seen as vastly preferable to the university model - for 90% of kids
    Reserving a top education exclusively for the elite 10%. HYUFD will be pleased.
    I think it might end up nearer 1% than 10%. Either way unis are heading for collapse
    You are the perfect example of a humanities grad who has no understanding of how science or engineering is taught or done.

    But then your limited understanding of LLMs

    Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire Poacher news,

    NEW: Former Conservative MP Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform, saying she has "joined the party of the brave"

    https://bsky.app/profile/josh-self.bsky.social/post/3lbyz52rwmc2m

    BREAKING: It will probably come as no surprise to anyone to hear former Tory Minister Dame Andrea Jenkyns has defected to Reform and will stand to be Greater Lincolnshire Mayor

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3lbyzjcmpt225

    Not good for Kemi.
    I would say that is a massive win for Kemi.
    It's not. It's an ex-Conservative MP joining Reform for career advancement. That says a lot.

    Mayoral votes on that scale are not a triviality. No party other than the Tories or Labour has won any (Livingstone won London as an independent, though that was an exceptional circumstance). If Reform manages it, it boosts their profile and their electoral credibility (same with the Greens in the laughably-named 'West of England').
    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?
    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Mate. You can’t even do BLOCKQUOTES
    Maaaaaaaate :lol:
  • By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Last line of the film (Argyle, the driver): "If this is their idea of Christmas, I gotta be here for New Year!"
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    There is a sort of reflection of some of the history of RoI politics. Most of Labour and central non-loony Tories are much closer to each other than they are to the left or to Reform. As with FF and FG their historic ties makes seeing this hard.

    In truth both groups (Lab and Con) are committed social democrats with not very important frills. Neither has a clue what to do about the same intractable problems. Sociology much more than actual policy is what keeps them apart.

    If the SPLORG thing carries on up to 50+ and stays there, I suggest it will cause great upheaval in the conditions we are used to.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    HYUFD said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
    -9?
    Is this a reputable pollster? I don't think I've heard of them.
    I think the government has been rubbish so far, but I just don't find this plausible. People rarely change their minds that quickly.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Is Die Hard a film? What's it about?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    The next election is too far off for now.

    For now, there's no great love for either of the two "parties of government", but none of their possible replacements are getting much, either.
    And the next result might be even less representative of how the electorate voted than was the last. FPTP makes casting an effective vote a huge lottery on those numbers.
    Indeed, if we had PR a grand coalition between Tories and Labour would be a real possibility.

    Under FPTP at the moment looks like a Labour minority government propped up by the LDs
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    There is a sort of reflection of some of the history of RoI politics. Most of Labour and central non-loony Tories are much closer to each other than they are to the left or to Reform. As with FF and FG their historic ties makes seeing this hard.

    In truth both groups (Lab and Con) are committed social democrats with not very important frills. Neither has a clue what to do about the same intractable problems. Sociology much more than actual policy is what keeps them apart.

    If the SPLORG thing carries on up to 50+ and stays there, I suggest it will cause great upheaval in the conditions we are used to.
    The post-cold-war consensus is even more pernicious than the post-war consensus and it will take another Thatcher (in style rather than policy) to break it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    He's so running for President in 2028.

    Since I took office, we’ve cut the time it takes to get a...
    ➡️ business permit from 8 weeks to 2 days
    ➡️ new teacher certification by 10 weeks
    ➡️ cosmetology or barbershop license from almost 2 weeks to the same day
    ➡️ new doctor license from 43 days to 2 days

    We’re laser focused on making government work efficiently and effectively so more Pennsylvanians can get to work and pursue their dreams...

    https://x.com/GovernorShapiro/status/1861416112711446897
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Your seasonal Die Hard threads alone make it a Christmas movie!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,434
    algarkirk said:

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Is Die Hard a film? What's it about?
    It's about an ancient search for a mordant that is not pee. In it, John McLane goes through a wizard's tower, tearing bits off his shirt to test the various fixatives on.

    Oh sorry, Die Hard, not the superior Dye Hard.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    algarkirk said:

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Is Die Hard a film? What's it about?
    Christmas I’m told.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
    -9?
    Is this a reputable pollster? I don't think I've heard of them.
    I think the government has been rubbish so far, but I just don't find this plausible. People rarely change their minds that quickly.
    Incoming governments elected by landslides rarely have made as unpopular decisions as this one has
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Couldn't we just discuss how we are going to get silver threepenny pieces/sixpences/5p coins in the Christmas pudding once cash is abolished?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Except that Con+RefUK is just shy of 50% - and come a GE, the Cons are more likely to squeeze REF than vice versa.
    There is a sort of reflection of some of the history of RoI politics. Most of Labour and central non-loony Tories are much closer to each other than they are to the left or to Reform. As with FF and FG their historic ties makes seeing this hard.

    In truth both groups (Lab and Con) are committed social democrats with not very important frills. Neither has a clue what to do about the same intractable problems. Sociology much more than actual policy is what keeps them apart.

    If the SPLORG thing carries on up to 50+ and stays there, I suggest it will cause great upheaval in the conditions we are used to.
    Yes if we had PR you would have a Tory and Labour and LD centrist consensus with some minor disagreements opposed by a significant number of Reform and DUP/TUV MPs to the Right and a significant number of Corbynite, Green, PC and non establishment SNP MPs to the left
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,488
    edited November 28
    biggles said:


    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?

    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Most of the residents of Sutton Coldfield still don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, greater or otherwise.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    algarkirk said:

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    Couldn't we just discuss how we are going to get silver threepenny pieces/sixpences/5p coins in the Christmas pudding once cash is abolished?
    You can buy 'hardware' loaded with bitcoin. it's cash, but not as we know it, Jim...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    The next election is too far off for now.

    For now, there's no great love for either of the two "parties of government", but none of their possible replacements are getting much, either.
    And the next result might be even less representative of how the electorate voted than was the last. FPTP makes casting an effective vote a huge lottery on those numbers.
    Indeed, if we had PR a grand coalition between Tories and Labour would be a real possibility.

    Under FPTP at the moment looks like a Labour minority government propped up by the LDs
    It seems to me that the effects of voting patterns are like (putatively) climate change. You get a long period of incremental alteration, all neatly regulated by Baxtering/the people who measure temperature at the north pole, and then suddenly something switches off, and something else switches on and Greenland grows bananas and Avignon develops an ice sheet, and Reform go from 5 seats to 507 seats with a 7 point shift in their vote.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    algarkirk said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    SPLORG 48%. Lab/Con 52%. That is, by two or three points I think, a record low. Heading for parity? At which point the rest of the world may begin to notice the possibility of epoch making change.
    Tories and Ref have a good chance of getting 50% at the next election, but can they transfer that into a majority of seats?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,609
    edited November 28
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
    -9?
    Is this a reputable pollster? I don't think I've heard of them.
    I think the government has been rubbish so far, but I just don't find this plausible. People rarely change their minds that quickly.
    Seems so and I am not surprised at labour at 25%

    Certainly the polls and locals have all been trending this way

    https://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/officers-members/
  • Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
    -9?
    Is this a reputable pollster? I don't think I've heard of them.
    I think the government has been rubbish so far, but I just don't find this plausible. People rarely change their minds that quickly.
    Previous 6 polls for Labour:
    BMG 28%
    Delta 29%
    Teche 29%
    Moreincommon 25%
    JL 27%
    Opin 30%

    All these polls are within reach of that 25% (one even reaches it). Seeing is believing. And yes, they are reputable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    France to develop new medium range ballistic missile.
    EXCLUSIF La France envisage le développement d’un nouveau missile balistique conventionnel, portée supérieure à 1.000km. Russie, Ukraine, Iran, Israël, Houthis : depuis 2022, l’usage des armements balistiques a explosé
    https://x.com/VincentLamigeon/status/1861663442643378306
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807

    Nigelb said:

    Boris Johnson on the Spectator podcast was utter vacuous nonsense.

    “We had a massive agenda” - you had two slogans.

    I can’t believe Johnson actually believes any of this stuff.

    He was a massive arse.
    It was all muscle.
    :D
  • Just noting that 10 year gilt yields have fallen below their pre-Budget level. I know PB Tories like to keep a close eye on market developments but for some reason have been somewhat silent on recent moves.

    I'm sure even the most simple minded of us will remember that the 10 year gilt yields rose dramatically in the weeks leading up to the budget. Come back to us when they are below that point, or mid September, or even GE date, or even at the start of the year. And how much extra the borrowing in this self-inflicted period will have cost us.
    Laughable. Clearly you weren't here on Budget Day to witness the unedifying spectacle of the PB Tories breathlessly posting hourly updates to gilt yields, talking the economy down. Embarrassing stuff.
    STILL HERE.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Leon said:

    PJH said:

    I wonder how many of the people who like to see immigration reduced to roughly zero would be happy with the consequences of that change? Are they happy to pay increased process for food and care, as those sectors are forced to pay the going rate for staff rather than just import cheap workers? Ditto bar staff, restaurant and retail workers. Or much worse waiting lists for NHS treatment because there is a shortage of medical staff for the next 5-10 years while we train more up.

    I suspect the same people would be screaming out against paying more personally or in tax for goods and services, or the inability to get NHS treatment.

    Which explains why the previous government did nothing about immigration as setting a level involves quite a hard balancing act, you can't simply cut it without significant consequences.

    FWIW I think foreign students is the obvious place to look, there were almost none when I was at Uni but that will mean a complete change to the current broken University funding model. Another one in the 'too hard' pile left behind by the outgoing government. There is no easy answer, whatever level you think is the 'right' one, including the status quo.

    Universities are doomed, and, for the same reason, immigration will soon be entirely unnecessary
    I thought you might jump in with that. On the whole I agree. There must be a role for them in the future for research but for teaching I'm coming to the conclusion you're right, or at least the model needs to be very different.
    Unis perform another function - a way for large cohorts of teenagers to leave home, make new friends, expand and mature a bit, generally transition into young adults. If they didn't exist we'd have to invent something similar.
    A great place to meet a life partner too, as we keep reminding our eldest daughter (7 weeks into her first term)!
    Of university hopefully!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379

    biggles said:


    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?

    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Most of the residents of Sutton Coldfield still don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, greater or otherwise.
    "Birmingham and the lands beyond"
    "Birmingham and all parishes, raions, voivoidships and thanes beyond"
    "Birmingham and the outer darkness"
    "Birmingham and all townships with enough gravity to force it into a spherical shape"
    "Birmingham and all those in fellowship"
    "The Birmingham Pact"
    "The Birmingham Alliance"
    "Imperial Birmingham"
    "Brum"
  • Scottish government reinstates WFP from 2025 - 26
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    Three parties in the 20s.

    Lib Dems moribund.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    viewcode said:

    biggles said:


    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?

    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Most of the residents of Sutton Coldfield still don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, greater or otherwise.
    "Birmingham and the lands beyond"
    "Birmingham and all parishes, raions, voivoidships and thanes beyond"
    "Birmingham and the outer darkness"
    "Birmingham and all townships with enough gravity to force it into a spherical shape"
    "Birmingham and all those in fellowship"
    "The Birmingham Pact"
    "The Birmingham Alliance"
    "Imperial Birmingham"
    "Brum"
    "Big Brum"
  • algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    A parliament with the Tories in power and Reform as the Opposition is not impossible. Cue hilarity

    If that was the case you could even see a future Tory and Labour grand coalition German style to keep out Farage.

    Jenrick might have done a deal with Farage to form a government, not sure Kemi would
    The next election is too far off for now.

    For now, there's no great love for either of the two "parties of government", but none of their possible replacements are getting much, either.
    And the next result might be even less representative of how the electorate voted than was the last. FPTP makes casting an effective vote a huge lottery on those numbers.
    Indeed, if we had PR a grand coalition between Tories and Labour would be a real possibility.

    Under FPTP at the moment looks like a Labour minority government propped up by the LDs
    It seems to me that the effects of voting patterns are like (putatively) climate change. You get a long period of incremental alteration, all neatly regulated by Baxtering/the people who measure temperature at the north pole, and then suddenly something switches off, and something else switches on and Greenland grows bananas and Avignon develops an ice sheet, and Reform go from 5 seats to 507 seats with a 7 point shift in their vote.
    Tipping points are everywhere.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,835

    biggles said:


    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?

    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Most of the residents of Sutton Coldfield still don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, greater or otherwise.
    Likewise Solihull. Course, for Sandwell it's rather the upgrade.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    I think we’re going to see Reform leading a poll in 2025.

    The danger for the Tories is already well documented - Reform holds them back in the seats they need to win back. The danger for Labour has been less publicised but it is just as bad - Reform are the main opposition to Labour in a number of seats and a possible repository for the “2019 Tory” contingent who delivered the Red Wall.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    edited November 28

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    Three parties in the 20s.

    Lib Dems moribund.
    Well, 12% delivered them 72 seats at the GE. Fair play to them for that achievement. So to still be on 12% now isn't necessarily a bad position for them to be in.
  • carnforth said:

    biggles said:


    Any reason why these mayoralties have such moronic names? West of England should be Greater Bristol. West Midlands, greater Birmingham. I think there is a Greater Newcastle one too which has a daft name?

    Can I watch the reaction when you tell people they live in “greater Birmingham”?
    Most of the residents of Sutton Coldfield still don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, greater or otherwise.
    Likewise Solihull. Course, for Sandwell it's rather the upgrade.
    More reasonably for the Silhillians given that they don't actually live in Birmingham, unlike the Suttonians.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379

    By the way, I see I missed the annual Die Hard thread.

    It is a Christmas film and those who say otherwise are just wrong. Here's why, via Beethoven:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SKt6cfH44&t=1228s

    I have another Die Hard thread scheduled for Christmas Eve.
    "I will count to three articles about AV. There will not be a four"

    "The blue wall that cannot be cut are cut automatically in response to a Curtice incident. You asked for miracles, Theo, I give you the S.N.P"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour heading for a deserved third place:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 27% (+2)
    LAB: 25% (-9)
    REF: 22% (+8)
    LDM: 12% (-)
    GRN: 9% (+2)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    Via
    @FindoutnowUK
    , On 27th November,
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    25% would be the lowest Labour score at a GE since 1918, even if 27% would be the second lowest Tory GE voteshare ever too
    -9?
    Is this a reputable pollster? I don't think I've heard of them.
    I think the government has been rubbish so far, but I just don't find this plausible. People rarely change their minds that quickly.
    Changes From GE rather than recent movements, I think.

    The percentages are not out of line with other pollsters for what that is worth.
This discussion has been closed.