Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Was into alchemy and poisoning himself with it, too.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
That requires one to have a very romanticised view of the Roman Empire. Which Gibbon had, but then he imagined that the Roman upper crust were all enlightened sceptics like he was.
In reality, the Roman elite were superstitious, back-stabbing, semi-literate, slave holders who took real pleasure in cruelty.
If you were a woman, a peasant, an artisan, you would far rather be alive in the Western Europe of 1400 than that of 200. The standard of living was far higher, the society was freer, literacy was more widespread, and the rulers less rapacious.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Were we rating progress? I was rating impact - 1500 years of little progress strikes me as having an enduring and lingering effect we probably don't even take on board very consciously, even if some major changes after the breaking of the cultural hegemon are more obvious.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".
I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
Excellent excuse to recall the little Norfolk parish of Stiffkey. Famous for only two things: a 40mm Bofors gunsight attachment, the Stiffkey Stick, and a defrocked padre.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
On top of all the other scandals where the “great and the good” have been protected, excused and supported by their peers, it is time that we reached a tipping point where ordinary people were believed, supported and, if appropriate, compensated without delays caused by said “great and the good”. I hope it will happen soon, but I’m not holding my breath.
Basic NU10K theory - the system is working as it should.
Time to smash the system.
They did smash the system. That was the Old10K.
Did you know about the different levels of hospitals, under Communism? They even have them, still, in Cuba.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".
I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
Excellent excuse to recall the little Norfolk parish of Stiffkey. Famous for only two things: a 40mm Bofors gunsight attachment, the Stiffkey Stick, and a defrocked padre.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
You asked a very valid polite question about gender on the previous thread.
Can I suggest that you wait until the outcome of the FWS appeal to the Supreme Court later this month because that judgment, whatever it is, will set out what the law currently means and may or may not solve the issues or make them worse.
There is plenty of detailed legal analysis of the legal issues the court will have to determine, much of it quite dry and complex. The proper approach to statutory interpretation is not exactly a topic to set the pulse racing. If you want links to that analysis and indeed the published legal arguments by some of the parties let me know.
I also think it unwise to rely on US statistics about child gender surgery for what is happening here because the approach there is very different to the approach taken here and the statistics and medical information / approach need to be carefully analysed. The Cass Report is probably the best starting point for anyone interested in the U.K. position. There is also a recent Family Court decision which is illuminating in this regard.
The position in relation to women's rights is best approached by reading the now significant number of judgments by Employment Tribunals on cases brought by women. Again the judgments are long and often very technical but well worth reading if you want to understand the legal issues and why so many women have been winning such cases.
The interesting question is why, pace the CoE, so many institutions are making the same mistakes and not learning any lessons.
As to which see about a million previous posts from me ...... 😀
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
I don't go to church but I still regard this as a country based on Christian ideas and we ought to respect that heritage.
I could broadly agree with the former, and even the latter, but there's a lot interpretation as to what 'based' and 'respect' might mean in these contexts.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
Eh? I didn't know the C of E was that broad. Anti-trinitarian, Arian and deist plus alchemist stoned out of his brain.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Was into alchemy and poisoning himself with it, too.
Yes, I was thinking more about his enthusiastic persecution of Catholics, but that too.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
I thought they were very much approved of as allowing chances for martyrdom (aka witnessing and testifying to God).
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Burning at the stake was of course very enlightened.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Cut them some slack, Hyufd. Football had yet to be invented.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
One of the earliest heretical doctrines was Pelagianism which arose from the teachings of Pelagius a British Christian from the 4th century.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Burning at the stake was of course very enlightened.
Indeed, there's a marker in the street marking one such auto-da-fe outside Balliol College at Oxford. Which is of course famous for demonstrating to a circumscribed studentship the sanctity and truth of the revelation of the Graeco-Romans.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Was into alchemy and poisoning himself with it, too.
Yes, I was thinking more about his enthusiastic persecution of Catholics, but that too.
Talking of religion, one bizarre anachronism we need to end is the requirements in the 1944 Education Act (as amended) for religious brainwa ... er ... education and school prayer.
The two hours a week or whatever could be much better spent on maths or foreign languages. Or maybe basic carpentry and plumbing.
Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".
I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
Excellent excuse to recall the little Norfolk parish of Stiffkey. Famous for only two things: a 40mm Bofors gunsight attachment, the Stiffkey Stick, and a defrocked padre.
Three things. Stiffkey blue cockles. Four things if you include the Farrow & Ball paint colour.
Five if you include the weird way they pronounce the name of the place - Stooky.
You tell me why.
It was probably pronounced "Stiffy" before some Victorians took exception to its raunchy meaning. In much the way that the bird the white arse became the wheatear....
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Cut them some slack, Hyufd. Football had yet to be invented.
Er ... wiki quotes a chap called Athenaeus:
Harpastum, which used to be called phaininda, is the game I like most of all. Great are the exertion and fatigue attendant upon contests of ball-playing, and violent twisting and turning of the neck. Hence Antiphanes, 'Damn it, what a pain in the neck I've got.' He describes the game thus: 'He seized the ball and passed it to a team-mate while dodging another and laughing. He pushed it out of the way of another. Another fellow player he raised to his feet. All the while the crowd resounded with shouts of Out of bounds, Too far, Right beside him, Over his head, On the ground, Up in the air, Too short, Pass it back in the scrum.'
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
I was always taught that Dark Ages implied not much known about them rather than somehow backward.
Talking of religion, one bizarre anachronism we need to end is the requirements in the 1944 Education Act (as amended) for religious brainwa ... er ... education and school prayer.
The two hours a week or whatever could be much better spent on maths or foreign languages.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Cut them some slack, Hyufd. Football had yet to be invented.
Er ... wiki quotes a chap called Athenaeus:
Harpastum, which used to be called phaininda, is the game I like most of all. Great are the exertion and fatigue attendant upon contests of ball-playing, and violent twisting and turning of the neck. Hence Antiphanes, 'Damn it, what a pain in the neck I've got.' He describes the game thus: 'He seized the ball and passed it to a team-mate while dodging another and laughing. He pushed it out of the way of another. Another fellow player he raised to his feet. All the while the crowd resounded with shouts of Out of bounds, Too far, Right beside him, Over his head, On the ground, Up in the air, Too short, Pass it back in the scrum.'
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
Talking of religion, one bizarre anachronism we need to end is the requirements in the 1944 Education Act (as amended) for religious brainwa ... er ... education and school prayer.
The two hours a week or whatever could be much better spent on maths or foreign languages.
Rubbish, we need proper traditional prayers and hymns. It also wouldn't be replaced by extra Maths or foreign languages but some woke assembly no doubt
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
Generally agree although you are out by about 200 years. St Augustine arrived to start converting the English in 595AD. There had been some Roman and Celtic Christianity prior to this but really the main development of Christianity in the British Isles is from the late 6th century onwards. If you are counting the Roman and Celtic Christianity then that would date from the early 300s or even earlier.
There is a north and west v south and east divide here! Augustine arrived to discover a British/Irish church well established. See Bede for a start. Recent treatment: Chapter 5 of Robin Fleming 'Britain after Rome' (Penguin) - fascinating, and Charles Thomas for older treatments of Christian Britain pre 500.
Yes I picked on 400 'roughly' to take in life before Patrick. I should have pointed out that there was a Bishop in York in 314, nearly 300 years before there was an ABofC.
Indeed but it is debatable how much of that Christianity had infiltrated into the general population. Certainly in the late Roman period there were quite extensive Roman Christian cemeteries (I am sitting about 200 yards from one right now) but there is clear evidence of paganisim becoming dominant again shortly after the 400s. For much of the British Isles Christianity was only very scattered for the next 2 centuries or more. To say that the nations were formed by Christian faith from 400AD seems quite a difficult claim to support.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
I was in Stratford today and astonished by the number of young Muslim women in full burqas covering most of the face
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
I was always taught that Dark Ages implied not much known about them rather than somehow backward.
But then I was taught way back in the dark ages.
Bit of both. The end of Roman Britain and the gradual abandonment of the towns and cities, combined with a lot fewer written documents giving the impression of a society regressing away from the ‘ideal’ of civilised (civitas) life and back to the agrarian past. Add in the perceived greater lawlessness of first Saxon et all and later Norse invaders and you build an idea of a darker world, with reduced culture, harsher times. And yet much of our landscape and civic origins are from that period. All of Alrfreds fortified burghs for instance. And the origins of a Navy.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. Gunpowder and firearms.
11. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
Jesus saves, but Best scores on the rebound.
The original joke is better.
It dates from the early 60s and relates to the appearance of a sign outside a Liverpool Church asking 'What would happen if Jesus came to Liverpool?' Some wag wrote underneath 'Play him centre forward and move St John to the left wing.'
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Burning at the stake was of course very enlightened.
Indeed, there's a marker in the street marking one such auto-da-fe outside Balliol College at Oxford. Which is of course famous for demonstrating to a circumscribed studentship the sanctity and truth of the revelation of the Graeco-Romans.
Two such, I think. Latimer and Ridley, and five months later Cranmer.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
I was in Stratford today and astonished by the number of young Muslim women in full burqas covering most of the face
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
I was always taught that Dark Ages implied not much known about them rather than somehow backward.
But then I was taught way back in the dark ages.
Bit of both. The end of Roman Britain and the gradual abandonment of the towns and cities, combined with a lot fewer written documents giving the impression of a society regressing away from the ‘ideal’ of civilised (civitas) life and back to the agrarian past. Add in the perceived greater lawlessness of first Saxon et all and later Norse invaders and you build an idea of a darker world, with reduced culture, harsher times. And yet much of our landscape and civic origins are from that period. All of Alrfreds fortified burghs for instance. And the origins of a Navy.
To be fair there was a navy in Britain well before the Saxons. The classis Britannica. I am actually just finishing of a talk on it for presentation tomorrow night. So stop distracting me
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
On the subject of diets did anyone else grow up thinking Martin Luther was famous for being forced to eat worms by some archaic version of Ant and Dec?
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
And I'm not sure that making banking possible was a plus.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
HEY! Don't you go saying things like that about Father Christmas!
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
Trebuchets
The ability to hit exactly the same spot on a wall with repeated 1/4 ton boulders was the beginning of the end for local castle and its (war)lord.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
I was in Stratford today and astonished by the number of young Muslim women in full burqas covering most of the face
How do you know they were women?
Last time I was in Stratford there were lots of men dressed as women. I was at the RSC watching As You Like It.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
Christ is the saviour of all mankind, as you will discover on the day of judgement
I think I'm pretty representative of about 75% of British people.
I was baptized C of E but I don't regularly go to church except for life's biggest events (birth, marriage and death) and I've always said I'm agnostic...
But... but... but...
At my absolute pit of despair and at the worst time of my life, which was in 2022 while I myself was being treated for cancer and my mother, who I was longtime carer for, was dying from metastatic breast cancer, I found myself calling out to a higher power and asking Him for the strength to get through the trials that I knew were ahead. And I did feel some comfort. Was that just my mind trying to ease itself? Or did a higher power hear me?
I personally would describe myself as "spiritual" in that I do believe our energy goes on beyond death and I hope that one day when my time comes, I'll see those I loved and lost. Where "religion" fits into that, I don't know, but that's my own personal belief. 🙏
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Burning at the stake was of course very enlightened.
Indeed, there's a marker in the street marking one such auto-da-fe outside Balliol College at Oxford. Which is of course famous for demonstrating to a circumscribed studentship the sanctity and truth of the revelation of the Graeco-Romans.
Two such, I think. Latimer and Ridley, and five months later Cranmer.
They got through them much more quickly than the clunky old manual da fes.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
Trebuchets
The ability to hit exactly the same spot on a wall with repeated 1/4 ton boulders was the beginning of the end for local castle and its (war)lord.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
And I'm not sure that making banking possible was a plus.
Jokingly yes, but in reality the invention of banking and hence finance was crucial. Borrow money, buy a ship, trade to far off places, make sheds of cash, re-invest etc and in two generations you are a new man, someone whose family started poor but now forms the new elite, much to the disdain of the old families.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
Trebuchets
The ability to hit exactly the same spot on a wall with repeated 1/4 ton boulders was the beginning of the end for local castle and its (war)lord.
And a boon for glaziers, as castles started becoming more like homes than forts.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Cut them some slack, Hyufd. Football had yet to be invented.
Er ... wiki quotes a chap called Athenaeus:
Harpastum, which used to be called phaininda, is the game I like most of all. Great are the exertion and fatigue attendant upon contests of ball-playing, and violent twisting and turning of the neck. Hence Antiphanes, 'Damn it, what a pain in the neck I've got.' He describes the game thus: 'He seized the ball and passed it to a team-mate while dodging another and laughing. He pushed it out of the way of another. Another fellow player he raised to his feet. All the while the crowd resounded with shouts of Out of bounds, Too far, Right beside him, Over his head, On the ground, Up in the air, Too short, Pass it back in the scrum.'
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
Burning at the stake was of course very enlightened.
Indeed, there's a marker in the street marking one such auto-da-fe outside Balliol College at Oxford. Which is of course famous for demonstrating to a circumscribed studentship the sanctity and truth of the revelation of the Graeco-Romans.
Two such, I think. Latimer and Ridley, and five months later Cranmer.
If you time it right you'll find a line of Japanese schoolgirls standing on the cross taking turns to be photographed.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
The crucifixions and killing by lions were of course very enlightened
I thought they were very much approved of as allowing chances for martyrdom (aka witnessing and testifying to God).
The vast majority of those who died in that manner had nothing to do with religion. They were rebellious smallfolk who had to be put in their place.
Sex and violence could be most entertainingly combined in the arena. Martial wrote an epigram about how the story of Pasihaphae and the Bull must be true, because he'd witnessed condemned women being so treated in the Colisseum. Sporus, a boy who had the misfortune to be very pretty, attracted the attention of Nero, who had him castrated, dressed as a woman, and married him. Following Nero's death, he was handed on as a mistress to Otho. Vitellius intended that he be publicly be raped to death by guardsmen, but he committed suicide before the sentence could be carried out.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
I was always taught that Dark Ages implied not much known about them rather than somehow backward.
But then I was taught way back in the dark ages.
Bit of both. The end of Roman Britain and the gradual abandonment of the towns and cities, combined with a lot fewer written documents giving the impression of a society regressing away from the ‘ideal’ of civilised (civitas) life and back to the agrarian past. Add in the perceived greater lawlessness of first Saxon et all and later Norse invaders and you build an idea of a darker world, with reduced culture, harsher times. And yet much of our landscape and civic origins are from that period. All of Alrfreds fortified burghs for instance. And the origins of a Navy.
To be fair there was a navy in Britain well before the Saxons. The classis Britannica. I am actually just finishing of a talk on it for presentation tomorrow night. So stop distracting me
True, Richard, although there wasn't much rum, or bum, and the concertina had yet to be invented.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.
We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.
But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
The term Dark Ages more or less vanished as a useful or meaningful term since the 1970s, and rightly so.
I was always taught that Dark Ages implied not much known about them rather than somehow backward.
But then I was taught way back in the dark ages.
Bit of both. The end of Roman Britain and the gradual abandonment of the towns and cities, combined with a lot fewer written documents giving the impression of a society regressing away from the ‘ideal’ of civilised (civitas) life and back to the agrarian past. Add in the perceived greater lawlessness of first Saxon et all and later Norse invaders and you build an idea of a darker world, with reduced culture, harsher times. And yet much of our landscape and civic origins are from that period. All of Alrfreds fortified burghs for instance. And the origins of a Navy.
To be fair there was a navy in Britain well before the Saxons. The classis Britannica. I am actually just finishing of a talk on it for presentation tomorrow night. So stop distracting me
True, Richard, although there wasn't much rum, or bum, and the concertina had yet to be invented.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Was into alchemy and poisoning himself with it, too.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
I know the potential for Halloween fancy dress faux pas is always there but....
Two senior soldiers from one of the Army’s most prestigious regiments face investigation after wearing Nazi uniforms to a party days before Remembrance Sunday.....Remarkably, their Regimental Sergeant Major had approved the SS outfits.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Alright but apart from that…
The ancient world did, of course, experiment with forms of democracy. But, all were finally replaced by oligarchy or autocracy, and democracy came to be synonmyous with mob rule (and in practice, it often was mob rule, eg the Athenian Assembly condemning naval commanders en masse, over the objections of Socrates, who insisted they were entitled to a trial).
Sixteenth and Seventeenth century absolutists relied upon Roman, not medieval, arguments that the will of the Prince has the force of law.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
The version practised in Syria is pretty liberal. Their President prays in a Church at Easter. Sadly our foreign policy is to replace that with a salafist theocracy.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
I know the potential for Halloween fancy dress faux pas is always there but....
Two senior soldiers from one of the Army’s most prestigious regiments face investigation after wearing Nazi uniforms to a party days before Remembrance Sunday.....Remarkably, their Regimental Sergeant Major had approved the SS outfits.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
I do not know but it is telling when Starmer is only a few feet away from the leader of Belarus and the Taliban and most of the important leaders stayed away
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
I do not know but it is telling when Starmer is only a few feet away from the leader of Belarus and the Taliban and most of the important leaders stayed away
If we aren't careful, Starmer will end up agreeing to discussing compensation to the Taliban for war in Afghanistan.....
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
I do not know but it is telling when Starmer is only a few feet away from the leader of Belarus and the Taliban and most of the important leaders stayed away
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
Its also one of those things if it isn't clamped down it just becomes endemic. There are bus routes in NYC where basically nobody pays now, because the authorities just waved it away and it grew and grew and of course the people paying went well f##k this if nobody else is paying and nobody does anything about it, we aren't going to either.
We have of course seen similar with shop lifting. The last government went really weak on it and now there is both casual I will take what I want and also organised crime has moved in on it.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
Trump's US won't give a shit, then neither will China or India, so why should the EU bother either given they have other spending priorities now like defence
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
Give Khan a break. He's too busy lecturing Donald Trump and whacking up taxes to pay for e.g. £10 million on a training course featuring tests to determine the “colour” of Met Police officers’ personalities, a six figure salary for a "night czar" or £500,000 of free ads for a vaginal moisturiser company (that one is just bizarre).
You really can't expect him to pay attention to trivialities like public safety.
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
Trump's US won't give a shit, then neither will China or India, so why should the EU bother either given they have other spending priorities now like defence
As I said earlier it has been reported the EU may consider buying oil and gas from the US to mitigate sanctions
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression. I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
Pity then the world's leaders stayed away including US, China, India, Indonesia and the EU
I thought that was rather interesting. Normally world leaders want to be seen at these things showing they are taking climate change seriously. Do we know why they the likes of the US and the EU have given it a miss?
Selling your country out to globalists is a vote loser and there's a lot of tight elections coming up in Europe at least so no surprise they've all declined to attend. I'm surprised we did but I guess Starmer is a sucker for being treated like a cash piñata by countries that want reparations.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...
Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
Isaac Newton was Anglican
And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
Was into alchemy and poisoning himself with it, too.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.
And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.
At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
I'd be surprised by that, younger Muslims tend to be more conservative than their parents. It's why most terrorists are in the 20s and 30s not their 50s and 60s.
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
The version practised in Syria is pretty liberal. Their President prays in a Church at Easter. Sadly our foreign policy is to replace that with a salafist theocracy.
Is it? Even Ed Miliband to be fair to him opposed strikes on Assad a decade ago
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
My daughter went to a CofE school. I remember she had a falling out with one of her friends once over a stuffed toy. Said friend claimed that the toy had been made for her by God. My daughter read the label which said it was made in China.
Course, my daughter is now a weekly churchgoer, so it does something for her even if she doesn't believe in the omnipotent creator bit.
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
Its also one of those things if it isn't clamped down it just becomes endemic. There are bus routes in NYC where basically nobody pays now, because the authorities just waved it away and it grew and grew and of course the people paying went well f##k this if nobody else is paying and nobody does anything about it, we aren't going to either.
We have of course seen similar with shop lifting. The last government went really weak on it and now there is both casual I will take what I want and also organised crime has moved in on it.
Indeed and to argue as @Fishing has it's all Sadiq's fault and have a pop at him is mistaken as I suspect this is a problem in most towns and cities and on most transport systems.
Shop lifting is another big issue in East Ham High Street - the big stores all have security though how effective that is I'm not sure.
As you say, it's a problem which didn't begin on July 5th. There may be some technological answer in time but the current "gate" system at most tube stations is useless as (and it's primarily young men) they can be pushed through without too much effort or the weaker simply tailgate through the luggage gates and avoid paying.
I've seen different figures as to the cost of fare evasion but TfL must know where the problems are - to be fair (sorry), when the revenue protection squad turns up at East Ham, they get a fine catch of fare dodgers and evaders so it can be done.
Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?
Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No
At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
No, it's not.
We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.
We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.
I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.
I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.
Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.
But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?
Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.
But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.
We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
Graeco-Roman contributions? The Romans were a slavery based society. What were their great achievements? Arguably an empire based on a unique way of funding an army and selling the idea of Rome to conquered nations (well strictly speaking conquered elites). Be just like us, live with villas with underfloor heating, pay your taxes and all will be well. Roman science was stifled by the ever present slave. In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
What did the medievals ever do for us?
...
One of the contradictions of the medieval period is that, although there were a lot of changes, the cultural ideal was very set against change. So changes were almost always justified in a very conservative way, by appealing to an imagined past. It's why it's very easy to think of the medieval period as very static, because the people at the time explicitly set themselves against the very idea of change. And yet, despite that, lots of change happened.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
Its also one of those things if it isn't clamped down it just becomes endemic. There are bus routes in NYC where basically nobody pays now, because the authorities just waved it away and it grew and grew and of course the people paying went well f##k this if nobody else is paying and nobody does anything about it, we aren't going to either.
We have of course seen similar with shop lifting. The last government went really weak on it and now there is both casual I will take what I want and also organised crime has moved in on it.
Indeed and to argue as @Fishing has it's all Sadiq's fault and have a pop at him is mistaken as I suspect this is a problem in most towns and cities and on most transport systems.
Shop lifting is another big issue in East Ham High Street - the big stores all have security though how effective that is I'm not sure.
As you say, it's a problem which didn't begin on July 5th. There may be some technological answer in time but the current "gate" system at most tube stations is useless as (and it's primarily young men) they can be pushed through without too much effort or the weaker simply tailgate through the luggage gates and avoid paying.
I've seen different figures as to the cost of fare evasion but TfL must know where the problems are - to be fair (sorry), when the revenue protection squad turns up at East Ham, they get a fine catch of fare dodgers and evaders so it can be done.
Although lots of debate about how effective the broken window approach was to reducing crime. I do believe letting all these minor things slide just leads to escalation. And in terms of retail, things are bad enough already (and worse with NI and business rates rises).
I was quite shocked that I went into my local town (a rather posh one) a couple of weeks ago and just called into a Tesco express to grab a drink and it had gone full 1980s Glasgow off-licence. Security guard, barriers and checkout staff all behind big glass enclosure. Anybody would think Trump was about to give a speech there!!!
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
What did you learn about Santa?
Never trust old men who want you to sit on their knee and ask you if you have been naughty, and if you would like a present. Which they will deliver to your bed after sneaking into your house.
Comments
In reality, the Roman elite were superstitious, back-stabbing, semi-literate, slave holders who took real pleasure in cruelty.
If you were a woman, a peasant, an artisan, you would far rather be alive in the Western Europe of 1400 than that of 200. The standard of living was far higher, the society was freer, literacy was more widespread, and the rulers less rapacious.
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html#:~:text=More than half of British,the Britain's largest religious minority.
You tell me why.
Did you know about the different levels of hospitals, under Communism? They even have them, still, in Cuba.
In the times from 1066 on huge cathedrals were raised across Europe, Military tactics and weapons evolved. Nations arose and trade flourished. It’s too simplistic to look at the Enlightenment and regard the centuries before as moribund.
https://www.fondazioneslowfood.com/en/ark-of-taste-slow-food/stiffkey-blue-cockles/
Yes: 54%
No: 30%
Leger / Nov 3, 2024 / n=1044 / Online
https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1856368890940432749
It's interesting to me because the older generations are the ones that are more likely to have lived under some kind of Islamic rule and they're less likely to be hardline or conservative than the generations below who haven't experienced it.
Islam is the one religion that seems reformation-proof. Others have all gone through something like that or just generally diluted over time as younger generations realise that drinking, eating pork/beef and sex before marriage are all great life experiences but people have been saying British Muslims will become more liberal for decades and it hasn't happened, it's gone the other way sadly.
The two hours a week or whatever could be much better spent on maths or foreign languages. Or maybe basic carpentry and plumbing.
Harpastum, which used to be called phaininda, is the game I like most of all. Great are the exertion and fatigue attendant upon contests of ball-playing, and violent twisting and turning of the neck. Hence Antiphanes, 'Damn it, what a pain in the neck I've got.' He describes the game thus: 'He seized the ball and passed it to a team-mate while dodging another and laughing. He pushed it out of the way of another. Another fellow player he raised to his feet. All the while the crowd resounded with shouts of Out of bounds, Too far, Right beside him, Over his head, On the ground, Up in the air, Too short, Pass it back in the scrum.'
But then I was taught way back in the dark ages.
But surely you have to be something of a numpty to believe in supernatural events whichever background you come from.
I think I was aged about 3 when I realised that religion was complete bollocks...about the same time when I learnt about Santa Claus. It amazes me that anyone older than the age of 3 still believes in any of this nonsense.....
1. The invention of Just War theory. An idea that would have seemed outlandish to Caesar.
2. The abolition of domestic slavery. Propose that to an ancient, and it would have seemed like you were suggesting he walk on the ceiling.
3. Musical notation.
4. Double-entry book-keeping. That made banking possible.
5. The creation of borough councils, diets, parliaments. The idea that rulers were subject to the will of God, and could be deposed for misconduct.
6. Cathedrals and castles. Masterpieces of beauty, and military technology.
7. The heavy plough and windmills. They transformed agricultural productivity.
8. Spectacles. They could add a decade to the working life of an artisan.
9. An enduring body of great literature, art, and music.
10. Gunpowder and firearms.
11. A culture of debate, of questioning authority, and logic.
Allison Pearson reveals how police officers called at her home on Remembrance Sunday to tell her of inquiry into year-old social media post
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/11/12/telegraph-journalist-allison-pearson-hate-crime-alleged/
It dates from the early 60s and relates to the appearance of a sign outside a Liverpool Church asking 'What would happen if Jesus came to Liverpool?' Some wag wrote underneath 'Play him centre forward and move St John to the left wing.'
The ability to hit exactly the same spot on a wall with repeated 1/4 ton boulders was the beginning of the end for local castle and its (war)lord.
So many options.
I was baptized C of E but I don't regularly go to church except for life's biggest events (birth, marriage and death) and I've always said I'm agnostic...
But... but... but...
At my absolute pit of despair and at the worst time of my life, which was in 2022 while I myself was being treated for cancer and my mother, who I was longtime carer for, was dying from metastatic breast cancer, I found myself calling out to a higher power and asking Him for the strength to get through the trials that I knew were ahead. And I did feel some comfort. Was that just my mind trying to ease itself? Or did a higher power hear me?
I personally would describe myself as "spiritual" in that I do believe our energy goes on beyond death and I hope that one day when my time comes, I'll see those I loved and lost. Where "religion" fits into that, I don't know, but that's my own personal belief. 🙏
(Not watched Wolf Hall part deux yet…)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C._8–2_Arsenal_F.C.?wprov=sfla1
Julius Caesar is a Manc, is a Manc, is a Manc,
Took the piss when Arsenal sank,
8-2, Brutus
Cockney Brutus took offence, took offence, took offence,
Ended up in violence,
Et tu Brutus
Maybe that's no longer a requirement?
Sex and violence could be most entertainingly combined in the arena. Martial wrote an epigram about how the story of Pasihaphae and the Bull must be true, because he'd witnessed condemned women being so treated in the Colisseum. Sporus, a boy who had the misfortune to be very pretty, attracted the attention of Nero, who had him castrated, dressed as a woman, and married him. Following Nero's death, he was handed on as a mistress to Otho. Vitellius intended that he be publicly be raped to death by guardsmen, but he committed suicide before the sentence could be carried out.
Zac Goldsmith
@ZacGoldsmith
In Baku today it is as if there are five @DavidLammy
clones. He is everywhere at COP & making a huge & hugely positive impression.
I can’t exaggerate how great it is to have such a senior figure drag the focus away from the technocratic one-dimensional focus on carbon counting towards championing the actual natural world we all depend on and without which we haven’t a hope of stabilising the climate.
It is wonderful to see & so good to have the UK back & leading on this, the most important cause of all 👏🌎👏
https://x.com/ZacGoldsmith/status/1856273118056034351
Two senior soldiers from one of the Army’s most prestigious regiments face investigation after wearing Nazi uniforms to a party days before Remembrance Sunday.....Remarkably, their Regimental Sergeant Major had approved the SS outfits.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14074579/Fury-senior-soldiers-prestigious-British-Army-regiment-wore-Nazi-uniforms-barracks-party-just-days-Remembrance-Sunday.html
People want competence, seemingly over everything else
All elections are about state capacity
https://www.strangeloopcanon.com/p/people-want-competence-seemingly
Sixteenth and Seventeenth century absolutists relied upon Roman, not medieval, arguments that the will of the Prince has the force of law.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/commuter-train-firm-c2c-faredodging-crackdown-fenchurch-street-station-b1193325.html
This is one of my personal irritations - fare dodging is endemic at East Ham but unfortunately Sadiq Khan and Transport for London seem happy to go running to the Government for extra money rather than trying to recoup the lost fares. C2C and I have to say the Elizabeth Line seem a lot more proactive about dealing with fare dodgers and anti-social behaviour on trains such as begging.
I know it's tiny in the cosmic scheme of things but it's this low-level criminality which degrades the quality of life in, I suspect, not just London but other towns and cities.
We have of course seen similar with shop lifting. The last government went really weak on it and now there is both casual I will take what I want and also organised crime has moved in on it.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-14072297/Three-major-banks-hike-fixed-rate-mortgages-costs-RISING-Bank-England-cut.html
You really can't expect him to pay attention to trivialities like public safety.
Course, my daughter is now a weekly churchgoer, so it does something for her even if she doesn't believe in the omnipotent creator bit.
Shop lifting is another big issue in East Ham High Street - the big stores all have security though how effective that is I'm not sure.
As you say, it's a problem which didn't begin on July 5th. There may be some technological answer in time but the current "gate" system at most tube stations is useless as (and it's primarily young men) they can be pushed through without too much effort or the weaker simply tailgate through the luggage gates and avoid paying.
I've seen different figures as to the cost of fare evasion but TfL must know where the problems are - to be fair (sorry), when the revenue protection squad turns up at East Ham, they get a fine catch of fare dodgers and evaders so it can be done.
I was quite shocked that I went into my local town (a rather posh one) a couple of weeks ago and just called into a Tesco express to grab a drink and it had gone full 1980s Glasgow off-licence. Security guard, barriers and checkout staff all behind big glass enclosure. Anybody would think Trump was about to give a speech there!!!