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Just one in sixteen have a favourable opinion on Welby – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,179
edited November 20 in General
Just one in sixteen have a favourable opinion on Welby – politicalbetting.com

Pre-scandal data on attitudes to Justin Welby are here: https://t.co/uCoPJC7t5s

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,059
    My breakfast meeting has now been cancelled.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966
    TimS said:

    My breakfast meeting has now been cancelled.

    Sorry to hear that, Justin.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    TSE bashing the bishop again... :(
  • Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.
  • I did ask the question on the last thread if Welby had to resign from the HOL and appears not

    Time to get unelected bishops removed as suggested
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,059

    TimS said:

    My breakfast meeting has now been cancelled.

    Sorry to hear that, Justin.
    Funny thing is it was only cancelled at about 5pm today, so he was obviously keeping his options open.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,607
    Net rating of -25. A good illustration of why gross positives might be a more important score than net.
  • GIN1138 said:

    At least we no longer have to look at Trumps arse anymore though 🙏

    I plan to use that photo regularly now that Don is back in the White House.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966
    On top of all the other scandals where the “great and the good” have been protected, excused and supported by their peers, it is time that we reached a tipping point where ordinary people were believed, supported and, if appropriate, compensated without delays caused by said “great and the good”. I hope it will happen soon, but I’m not holding my breath.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,541
    The CoE rarely gets negative publicity, so carries on officiating at various ceremonies to general mild approval - unifying force and all that. I doubt if they have any real power at all, but I agree that the membership of the Lords of some bishops is an odd feature which is best dropped.

    Will we ever cease to be an officially religious society? I'm not religious in any way, but I can't see it being a priority unless scandals become commonplace.
  • GIN1138 said:

    TSE bashing the bishop again... :(

    Bashing the archbishop!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966

    GIN1138 said:

    At least we no longer have to look at Trumps arse anymore though 🙏

    I plan to use that photo regularly now that Don is back in the White House.
    Please, no! There are enough arses on here already.
  • #BoycottBoots


  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,055
    Bishops up and down the country having phone lines installed as we speak.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300

    GIN1138 said:

    At least we no longer have to look at Trumps arse anymore though 🙏

    I plan to use that photo regularly now that Don is back in the White House.
    Nooooooo....
  • '...Hopefully Sir Gavin Williamson is successful in removing the unelected clergy from the Lords.'

    It would be an extaordinary irony if such a disreputable MP were to succeed with such a progressive act.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,607

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    From 2012, but has some interesting contradictions.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/2949-britain-christian-country

    "76% Britons say they are 'not religious', but 56% say Britain is Christian.."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    edited November 12
    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,670

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
  • GIN1138 said:

    At least we no longer have to look at Trumps arse anymore though 🙏

    "He is in my behind!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE-sSRrHt_8&t=179s
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,055
    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.
  • I did ask the question on the last thread if Welby had to resign from the HOL and appears not

    Time to get unelected bishops removed as suggested

    The serving Archbishops are Lords Spiritual (but +Justin isn't that any more) and retired Archbishops normally get a life peerage in their own right. I think it's a separate step, though others might know more.

    Whether that's appropriate in this case is a question for another day.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Welby does not have a place in the house of Lords for life.

    He had a place as Archbishop.

    It is common practice to give the retiring Archbishop a life peerage, whether he would get one now is questionable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474
    The irony is, Welby has never been especially popular. He's always been too closely associated with both Holy Trinity Brompton and with the corporate managerialism strands within the church.

    With hindsight, despite his rather trenchant views on sensitive subjects Christopher Cocksworth would have been a rather better choice.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    a

    On top of all the other scandals where the “great and the good” have been protected, excused and supported by their peers, it is time that we reached a tipping point where ordinary people were believed, supported and, if appropriate, compensated without delays caused by said “great and the good”. I hope it will happen soon, but I’m not holding my breath.

    Basic NU10K theory - the system is working as it should.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,670

    The CoE rarely gets negative publicity, so carries on officiating at various ceremonies to general mild approval - unifying force and all that. I doubt if they have any real power at all, but I agree that the membership of the Lords of some bishops is an odd feature which is best dropped.

    Will we ever cease to be an officially religious society? I'm not religious in any way, but I can't see it being a priority unless scandals become commonplace.

    As Richard Dawkins has recently described himself as 'culturally Christian' the cause is lost.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Welby is weak not evil then?

    A classic problem.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    edited November 12
    I don't think the eradication of the Bishops from HoL will ever happen as the C of E are all lefties these days, so why would a Labour government ever remove them? And a Tory government would never remove them as, well, the Conservatives will never change HoL.

    The only way the Bishops get defrocked from the legislature is if we get a REFORM majority government, IMO. And that's not happening.

    Sooooo... 🙏
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    edited November 12

    Bishops up and down the country having phone lines installed as we speak.

    Much more likely seeing if they can arrange a protracted sequence of dental work.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513
    TimS said:

    My breakfast meeting has now been cancelled.

    As has Welby…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    TSE, those data before the scandal seem to sayt that 49% had not heard of the Archbish by name. So he's improved of late.

    He's merely the leader of one sect. As much expect people to remember offhand who the Moderator of the Free Church of Scotland (Continuing) is?

    OTOH, like the various Presbyterian Moderators, perhaps people think of him by his position rather than his name. Compare one Charles Philip Arthur George Mountbatten-Windsor, for instance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    The CoE rarely gets negative publicity, so carries on officiating at various ceremonies to general mild approval - unifying force and all that. I doubt if they have any real power at all, but I agree that the membership of the Lords of some bishops is an odd feature which is best dropped.

    Will we ever cease to be an officially religious society? I'm not religious in any way, but I can't see it being a priority unless scandals become commonplace.

    'Rarely'? The BBC (despite its own in house sex abusers in times past) specialises in Bishop bashing and the Mail also often runs such stories
  • HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
  • kle4 said:

    Welby is weak not evil then?

    A classic problem.

    Diet cloak of E-Vil.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,228
    edited November 12
    HYUFD said:

    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think

    You miss out 42% have not even hear of him which hardly applies to Starmer or Farage

    I am a conservative, though not maybe as pure and certainly as right wing as you would like, but the bishops in the HOL is as much an anachronism as the Lord's itself

    We need a democratically elected 2nd house
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    edited November 12
    GIN1138 said:

    I don't think the eradication of the Bishops from HoL will ever happen as the C of E are all lefties these days, so why would a Labour government ever remove them? And a Tory government would never remove them as, well, the Conservatives will never change HoL.

    The only way the Bishops get defrocked from the legislature is if we get a REFORM majority government, IMO. And that's not happening.

    Sooooo... 🙏

    No they aren't, some C of E members like me and Reverend Marcus Walker are even Tory party members.

    Reform voters aren't that anti Bishops in the Lords either relative to other parties. According to Yougov Green voters are the biggest Bishop bashers, then Labour voters then LDs and only then Reform with Tory voters least wanting to remove the Bishops from the Lords
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_HouseofLords_240909.pdf
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300

    Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".

    Kerching :D
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,078

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.

    And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.

    At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    From 2012, but has some interesting contradictions.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/2949-britain-christian-country

    "76% Britons say they are 'not religious', but 56% say Britain is Christian.."
    That’s not really a contradiction. As a society we have very much been shaped by the church. Much of what we consider to be the right way to behave devolves from the churches teaching. And many people still like the theatre and calendar of the church, even if not actually believing. The seasonal festivals of Easter an Christmas match pretty well with mid winter pagan festivals and the spring rebirth.
  • algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    Generally agree although you are out by about 200 years. St Augustine arrived to start converting the English in 595AD. There had been some Roman and Celtic Christianity prior to this but really the main development of Christianity in the British Isles is from the late 6th century onwards. If you are counting the Roman and Celtic Christianity then that would date from the early 300s or even earlier.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,055
    algarkirk said:

    The CoE rarely gets negative publicity, so carries on officiating at various ceremonies to general mild approval - unifying force and all that. I doubt if they have any real power at all, but I agree that the membership of the Lords of some bishops is an odd feature which is best dropped.

    Will we ever cease to be an officially religious society? I'm not religious in any way, but I can't see it being a priority unless scandals become commonplace.

    As Richard Dawkins has recently described himself as 'culturally Christian' the cause is lost.
    Echos of Dara Ó Briain referring to himself as a Catholic Atheist.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    I am a Muslim two days a year.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.

    Bit difficult. The Hitlerjugend membership was for aet: 14-18. So you'd need to be born in 1931 at the latest to have a chance of qualifying - i.e. 93 at a minimum.

    Bit easier if you were in the Jungfolk, but that only gives 4 years more to play with.
  • algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.

    Can’t be that many left alive, can there?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    From 2012, but has some interesting contradictions.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/2949-britain-christian-country

    "76% Britons say they are 'not religious', but 56% say Britain is Christian.."
    That’s not really a contradiction. As a society we have very much been shaped by the church. Much of what we consider to be the right way to behave devolves from the churches teaching. And many people still like the theatre and calendar of the church, even if not actually believing. The seasonal festivals of Easter an Christmas match pretty well with mid winter pagan festivals and the spring rebirth.
    Bealtaine and Yule wave hello.
  • HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    So Christians are a minority, by your own data.

    Absurd to call a country by what it has a plurality of. This is not a Labour country, even if a plurality voted that way last time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    If someone were, say, a non practising Muslim who basically just acted in a stereotypically 'traditional' English way - getting drink at the footy, getting bored at the Christmas panto, whatever - would they still be culturally Muslim? It might be indistinguishable from people describe themselves as culturally Christian.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    edited November 12
    algarkirk said:

    The CoE rarely gets negative publicity, so carries on officiating at various ceremonies to general mild approval - unifying force and all that. I doubt if they have any real power at all, but I agree that the membership of the Lords of some bishops is an odd feature which is best dropped.

    Will we ever cease to be an officially religious society? I'm not religious in any way, but I can't see it being a priority unless scandals become commonplace.

    As Richard Dawkins has recently described himself as 'culturally Christian' the cause is lost.
    I've noticed as Richard Dawkins is getting older he's becoming less and less strident in his atheism. Almost as though, as he nears his natural end, he is psychologically beginning to hedge his bets with the hereafter.

    It's quite interesting to observe...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,845
    Very off-topic (sorry), but I recently grabbed a copy of this old series (100% legitimately of course).

    The View from Daniel Pike

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_View_from_Daniel_Pike
    The View from Daniel Pike was a Scottish television drama series in the early 1970s, which starred Roddy McMillan as the eponymous title character, a hard-boiled private detective based in Glasgow
    It's really quite enjoyable, if you enjoy that period and the quite radical shifting in values that were going on. I could accidentally make it available to interested parties as I'm quite clumsy like that.

  • algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.

    We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    Carnyx said:

    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.

    Bit difficult. The Hitlerjugend membership was for aet: 14-18. So you'd need to be born in 1931 at the latest to have a chance of qualifying - i.e. 93 at a minimum.

    Bit easier if you were in the Jungfolk, but that only gives 4 years more to play with.
    Get some out of freezer?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fl11v
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    Just have a look at the "Public Schools". Teaching great slabs of pagan culture. Polytheism. Greeks doing what the Romans didn't approve of. Ovid's Ars amatoria.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513
    Carnyx said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    From 2012, but has some interesting contradictions.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/2949-britain-christian-country

    "76% Britons say they are 'not religious', but 56% say Britain is Christian.."
    That’s not really a contradiction. As a society we have very much been shaped by the church. Much of what we consider to be the right way to behave devolves from the churches teaching. And many people still like the theatre and calendar of the church, even if not actually believing. The seasonal festivals of Easter an Christmas match pretty well with mid winter pagan festivals and the spring rebirth.
    Bealtaine and Yule wave hello.
    Indeed. Instinctively we need a festival in the depths of winter. And spring, with the new growth just beginning is a joy.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,845

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.

    We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
    I blame the Beaker People. They have a lot to answer for.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    Carnyx said:

    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.

    Bit difficult. The Hitlerjugend membership was for aet: 14-18. So you'd need to be born in 1931 at the latest to have a chance of qualifying - i.e. 93 at a minimum.

    Bit easier if you were in the Jungfolk, but that only gives 4 years more to play with.
    Get some out of freezer?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fl11v
    Nah, too young for the Pimpfe.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966

    a

    On top of all the other scandals where the “great and the good” have been protected, excused and supported by their peers, it is time that we reached a tipping point where ordinary people were believed, supported and, if appropriate, compensated without delays caused by said “great and the good”. I hope it will happen soon, but I’m not holding my breath.

    Basic NU10K theory - the system is working as it should.

    Time to smash the system.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,422
    You've gotta be a CofE regular or seriously weird to have an opinion.
    I don't. I know next to nowt about the man or his doings.
    Not my team even when I was nominally a Christian.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966

    Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".

    I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,300
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I don't think the eradication of the Bishops from HoL will ever happen as the C of E are all lefties these days, so why would a Labour government ever remove them? And a Tory government would never remove them as, well, the Conservatives will never change HoL.

    The only way the Bishops get defrocked from the legislature is if we get a REFORM majority government, IMO. And that's not happening.

    Sooooo... 🙏

    No they aren't, some C of E members like me and Reverend Marcus Walker are even Tory party members.

    Reform voters aren't that anti Bishops in the Lords either relative to other parties. According to Yougov Green voters are the biggest Bishop bashers, then Labour voters then LDs and only then Reform with Tory voters least wanting to remove the Bishops from the Lords
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_HouseofLords_240909.pdf
    I think Nigel Farage would get rid of the Bishops. And Corbyn too, probably.

    Just a hunch.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007
    dixiedean said:

    You've gotta be a CofE regular or seriously weird to have an opinion.
    I don't. I know next to nowt about the man or his doings.
    Not my team even when I was nominally a Christian.

    Oh, were you Partick Thistle then?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    I am a Muslim two days a year.
    I thought you visited your mother more frequently than that!
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 542
    HYUFD said:

    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think

    Genuinely curious to know whether you think that you think that hereditary peers should rule over you by birthright or whether you're just being nakedly partisan because you think they're mostly Tories?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".

    I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
    Excellent excuse to recall the little Norfolk parish of Stiffkey. Famous for only two things: a 40mm Bofors gunsight attachment, the Stiffkey Stick, and a defrocked padre.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/extra/series-1/vicar_lion.shtml
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.

    We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
    Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
  • kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,754
    edited November 12

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    I am a Muslim two days a year.
    I thought you visited your mother more frequently than that!
    I live under the same roof as her.

    She accepts me that I am a good Muslim because I follow a halal diet and do not drink the devil's buttermilk.

    I don't pray five times a day, I am averaging praying twice a year.

    I suppose if you ignore my gambling and constant whoring I am a good Muslim.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    If someone were, say, a non practising Muslim who basically just acted in a stereotypically 'traditional' English way - getting drink at the footy, getting bored at the Christmas panto, whatever - would they still be culturally Muslim? It might be indistinguishable from people describe themselves as culturally Christian.
    Is that muruna?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    It does, you are culturally Muslim
    I am a Muslim two days a year.
    I thought you visited your mother more frequently than that!
    I assume he’s adding the minutes up and gets to 60 x 24 x 2…
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,007

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...

    Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    I hope the C of E don't make the same mistake as the Papists by appointing a member of the Hitler Youth.

    Pope Benedict just did what all German youth were forced to do at that time, he was never a Nazi.

    He had a great intellect though and a traditional conservative approach to theology which left liberals obviously despised
  • algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    The Enlightenment though in fact blended Christian concepts of individual dignity with Classical concepts.

    We are a mix of a lot of things, really.
    Go back to the pre-reformation days, when England was still Catholic. The daily life and calendar were intimately connected to the church. Much of English culture devolves from this. Of course there are plenty of other influences, but take the enlightenment. All those involved would have been religious.
    Yes pre Reformation was dominated by the Church.

    But the progress in our society in recent centuries happened post Reformation. Which reverted back to building upon pre Dark Ages ideas.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,474

    Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".

    That would be skirting the issue.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    Even Roman culture was latterly largely Christian, of course the Christian faith is part of our heritage even if like most of Northern Europe, Oceania and East Asia we now form the most atheist part of the world. While southern Africa, Latin America, the US, the Philippines and parts of southern Europe and Poland are where Christianity is strongest now
  • kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
    A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.

    But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?

    Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
  • I consider myself to be a Christian in the Anglican communion - albeit a rather lapsed one. The machinations of the CofE is one of the things that encouraged me to drift away - the hypocrisy of the thing.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,966
    Carnyx said:

    Anyhow, a C of E story is not complete if it does not involve the use of the word "defrocked".

    I thought the problem was with people being detrousered, not defrocked.
    Excellent excuse to recall the little Norfolk parish of Stiffkey. Famous for only two things: a 40mm Bofors gunsight attachment, the Stiffkey Stick, and a defrocked padre.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/extra/series-1/vicar_lion.shtml
    Three things. Stiffkey blue cockles. Four things if you include the Farrow & Ball paint colour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    edited November 12
    Ratters said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.

    And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.

    At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
    Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:

    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think

    You miss out 42% have not even hear of him which hardly applies to Starmer or Farage

    I am a conservative, though not maybe as pure and certainly as right wing as you would like, but the bishops in the HOL is as much an anachronism as the Lord's itself

    We need a democratically elected 2nd house
    No we don't need to become even more American
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,670

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    Generally agree although you are out by about 200 years. St Augustine arrived to start converting the English in 595AD. There had been some Roman and Celtic Christianity prior to this but really the main development of Christianity in the British Isles is from the late 6th century onwards. If you are counting the Roman and Celtic Christianity then that would date from the early 300s or even earlier.
    There is a north and west v south and east divide here! Augustine arrived to discover a British/Irish church well established. See Bede for a start. Recent treatment: Chapter 5 of Robin Fleming 'Britain after Rome' (Penguin) - fascinating, and Charles Thomas for older treatments of Christian Britain pre 500.

    Yes I picked on 400 'roughly' to take in life before Patrick. I should have pointed out that there was a Bishop in York in 314, nearly 300 years before there was an ABofC.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
    A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.

    But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?

    Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
    Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513
    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.

    And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.

    At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
    Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
    I doubt it. Just as the natives have become less religious, so will the Muslim incomers over time. The seduction of the western lifestyle is too strong in the end. Take apps leading good Muslim as the template.
  • kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
    A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.

    But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?

    Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
    Huge changes. Don’t fall into the dark ages trap.
    Some changes. Some science and philosophy absolutely, some cultural progress.

    But utterly insignificant compared to post enlightenment and Graeco Roman contributions.

    We are an enlightened country far more than a Christian one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...

    Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
    Isaac Newton was Anglican
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think

    Must we? Really?
    Yes we must
  • HYUFD said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the UK called themselves Christian on the last census, 37% no religion, 6.5% Muslim and 1.7% Hindu.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/religion/bulletins/religionenglandandwales/census2021

    So we are still a plurality even if not a majority Christian nation

    I declared myself as a Muslim on the census.

    It doesn't mean much.
    Bah, I declare myself as an atheist on the census.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,078
    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.

    And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.

    At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
    Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
    Nah Muslims will follow the same trend towards being non religious as Christians.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    So even despite everything that has happened Welby with a -25% rating with Yougov still has a higher net favourable rating than Starmer on -33% and Farage on -30%.

    We must also continue to oppose that twerp Williamson and his un Tory failure to back our Bishops in the Lords as hard as we oppose Starmer and his class war attempt to remove the hereditaries from the Lords whatever a Radical Liberal like TSE might think

    You miss out 42% have not even hear of him which hardly applies to Starmer or Farage

    I am a conservative, though not maybe as pure and certainly as right wing as you would like, but the bishops in the HOL is as much an anachronism as the Lord's itself

    We need a democratically elected 2nd house
    No we don't need to become even more American
    Racist!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    Cyclefree said:

    @BatteryCorrectHorse

    You asked a very valid polite question about gender on the previous thread.

    Can I suggest that you wait until the outcome of the FWS appeal to the Supreme Court later this month because that judgment, whatever it is, will set out what the law currently means and may or may not solve the issues or make them worse.

    There is plenty of detailed legal analysis of the legal issues the court will have to determine, much of it quite dry and complex. The proper approach to statutory interpretation is not exactly a topic to set the pulse racing. If you want links to that analysis and indeed the published legal arguments by some of the parties let me know.

    I also think it unwise to rely on US statistics about child gender surgery for what is happening here because the approach there is very different to the approach taken here and the statistics and medical information / approach need to be carefully analysed. The Cass Report is probably the best starting point for anyone interested in the U.K. position. There is also a recent Family Court decision which is illuminating in this regard.

    The position in relation to women's rights is best approached by reading the now significant number of judgments by Employment Tribunals on cases brought by women. Again the judgments are long and often very technical but well worth reading if you want to understand the legal issues and why so many women have been winning such cases.

    The interesting question is why, pace the CoE, so many institutions are making the same mistakes and not learning any lessons.

    As to which see about a million previous posts from me ...... 😀

    The C of E could do worse than appoint a woman as next Archbishop, maybe even the Bishop of Newcastle
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    A great deal of progress was down to the Nonconformists and the Scottish Presbyterians. Surprising how many SI units are named after Britons and Irish people of those denominations. Joule, Kelvin, Watt, Faraday ...

    Not sure what Ikey Newton was.
    Isaac Newton was Anglican
    And a right evil bugger, by all accounts.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,670
    edited November 12

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    The answer to your question is going to depend on what is meant by it. At one end of the scale: Does the population as a whole attend Christian worship and believe a version of the Christian faith? 100% No

    At the other end: Is the UK a collection of nations formed by Christian faith and culture from roughly 400CE onwards in which Christian self-identification forms the largest coherent group to this day? 100% Yes.
    No, it's not.

    We are not formed by either the Christian faith nor Christian culture.

    We are formed by European culture which has evolved from the Graeco-Romans onwards predating Christ and with vast jumps in cultural improvement postdating religion too.
    I think that probably understates the impact of 1500 years of a very strong religious cultural impact, specifically of Christian variants.

    I don't go the whole hog of thinking that defines almost all aspects our present day culture and mores, even ones as a reaction against Christian cultures, as in effect because of them, but I think we can discuss it a bit too easily as well.

    I've called the country culturally christian, in historical terms, without being a christian myself. Depends what one means by it.
    Not really as culturally our society was stifled for those 1500 years with very little significant progress in that time.

    Progress happened in the Graeco Roman era and from the Enlightenment onwards. The millenia plus between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of the Roman Empire may have been dominated by religion but not much progress occurred then.
    Your understanding o& history is someone basic if you genuinely believe that.
    A lot of history happened, yes, as far as one monarch fighting another and borders shifting in Europe and that kind of stuff.

    But as for culture, philosophy, science, technology etc?

    Pre Dark Ages and post Enlightenment is where the real strides were made.
    Head in hands. Where would one start? Abbasids? Aquinas? The Lateran Councils? Chaucer? Messe de Tournai? Dante? Alfred? Chartres? Hildebrand?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ratters said:

    Who still believe this is a Christian country in the 21st century?

    Besides HYUFD and the anachronism of our constitution.

    46% in the latest census described themselves as Christian vs. 37% with no religion. But they were -13% and +12% on the previous census, meaning on a linear trend 'no religion' will overtake any year now and become a majority of the population before long too.

    And let's face it, most of those who answer Christian on a form don't actively participate in religious events.

    At some point the constitution can be cleaned up, but I see no harm in letting the importance of religion fade away naturally.
    Until given our awful below replacement birth rate in about a century we become majority Muslim under Sharia Law given Muslims in the UK have a much higher birthrate now than native white Brits?
    Nah Muslims will follow the same trend towards being non religious as Christians.
    Far from it, globally there are more Muslims than ever (and indeed there are in raw numbers terms globally more Christians than ever) and the more they immigrate here and the higher their birthrate the more likely they are to eventually be the majority
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