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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    You mean like Thatcher with Pinochet?

    I don't recall Mao helping us in a war against his neighbour or murdering millions?

    Oh, he was right wing - evil bastard!
    Millions or thousands, I wouldn't thought it made a difference, but obvioulsy it does for you.
    Neither were good men - but you equated a right wing murderer of thousands (1,200-3,200) with a left wing murderer of (around forty) millions....

    Do you admire Churchill?

    Can Churchill be blamed for the deaths of roughly 3 million Indians during the Bengal famine of 1943?
    Churchill's role in the Bengal famine is disputed - Provincial Indian governments also had a role. However, like Pinochet, Churchill was voted out of office.....unlike Mao.....

    Bengal bore the brunt of the gathering disaster. At least 1.5 million died as a direct result of the famine which began at the end of 1942 and last all through the following year. A similar number again are estimated to have perished through disease - cholera, malaria and smallpox - because they were so malnourished that they had no resistance. Churchill, already furious with India, refused to interfere with the shipping programme to bring relief. Only when Field .

    - Antony Beevor, "The Second World War", Phoenix Books (2013).
    Sunil, How dare you try to traduce one of Carlotta's hero's. stop telling the truth.
    God, you're boring. Where did I write 'Churchill was my hero'?

    Change the record, Malcolm.....

    Or would you prefer to discuss the views of some Scot Nats during WWII?

    one supposed dodgy SNP supporter
    You mean Arthur Donaldson, leader of the SNP for 9 years?

    I see you chose to avoid the truth once again , millions upon millions killed by your people and the best you can do is come up with one person who murdered no-one. Dear Dear, bet you are sitting wrapped in your butchers apron singing land of hope and glory.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    AndyJS said:



    I read the other day there are circuit breakers for all the electronic systems, which can be disabled in the event of a fire for example.

    But that wasn't my point actually: the point was the cockpit and data recording devices only record the last two hours' worth of data, so if the plane flew for more than 2 hours after 1:30am that data would be recorded on top of.

    Very good point, I hadn't appreciated that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    AndyJS said:



    I read the other day there are circuit breakers for all the electronic systems, which can be disabled in the event of a fire for example.

    But that wasn't my point actually: the point was the cockpit and data recording devices only record the last two hours' worth of data, so if the plane flew for more than 2 hours after 1:30am that data would be recorded on top of.


    And seriously, I can store 8GB of data on a tiny thumb drive, why can't you store more than 8 hours of data? (I realise that this kind of situation is very unusual, but still!)
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    "Venice votes in referendum on splitting from Rome"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26604044

    If the Venice referendum leads to the establishment of the Autonomous Republic of Veneto, like Scotland, it may have problems of becoming a member of the EU.

    Venice's unique problem is that EU Directive 1999/59/ec requires the roads in all capital cities to be surfaced with asphalt standard EN-12273.

    Scotland's problem is that EU Directive 2004/69/en requires all male citizens to wear trousers complying with EN-123456.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    i24news_EN ‏@i24news_EN 18s
    #BREAKING - Russian President Vladimir Putin signs decree that recognizes #Crimea as a sovereign state.

    First step to incorporating Crimea into Russia proper.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    MikeK said:

    i24news_EN ‏@i24news_EN 18s
    #BREAKING - Russian President Vladimir Putin signs decree that recognizes #Crimea as a sovereign state.

    First step to incorporating Crimea into Russia proper.

    Living history.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2014
    malcolmg said:



    I see you chose to avoid the truth once again , millions upon millions killed by your people and the best you can do is come up with one person who murdered no-one. Dear Dear, bet you are sitting wrapped in your butchers apron singing land of hope and glory.

    Of course, no Scots served for the crown "murdering millions" did they?

    Unlike you and the Union, I do not associate the current SNP leadership with the sins of their fathers, but since you bring it up:

    THE former SNP leader Arthur Donaldson plotted to set up a puppet Nazi government in Scotland, according to a recently released wartime spy report.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    MikeK said:

    i24news_EN ‏@i24news_EN 18s
    #BREAKING - Russian President Vladimir Putin signs decree that recognizes #Crimea as a sovereign state.

    First step to incorporating Crimea into Russia proper.

    If that's what the Crimeans want, who are we to stop them?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    When is the referendum for Scottish PB Independence ?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited March 2014
    On the aircraft this fellow seems to have come up with a very plausible explanation, one that doesn't require any conspiracy or crime but does cover all the facts as known

    https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    For me, there was something rather magical about the idea of being able to board a train in darkest Manchester or Birmingham and find yourself in Paris or Brussels a few hours later.

    Absolute devastated that they've scrapped that plan in order to please SeanT and Boris Johnson's dad (amongst other Camden residents).
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    All this talk of the next Tory leader is fascinating.If Osborne is pulling Gove's strings then why is Osborne 16-1 and Gove 8-1?Shouldn't be the other way round which makes the 16-1 look value because you have a certain runner to trade.
    I'm wondering if Teresa May is engineering this as she has the necessary qualities so sadly lacking in others.She is not a Bullingdon Boy,not a boy at all and therefore not eligible for Eton.She is sitting pretty.
    Johnson might enter the race but why? Leading a Tory party in opposition-he will never serve under Cameron as he is an older boy-isn't very appealing and another spell as Mayor,where at least he has some power and does not do very much,could be more attractive.
    It could be a straight May-Osborne contest.The 5-1 and 16-1 respectively make a nice dutching opportunity.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Boris Johnson has penned a piece on the missing jet:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10701682/In-this-agonising-mystery-of-Flight-370-there-is-also-hope.html

    "This is a world in which we thought that they could see everything: whether through CCTV or looking at your internet account or tracking your movements by the signal of your mobile phone. Now we learn that it is still a world so vast that an object as unmistakeable as a Boeing 777 – 200ft long, 200ft broad and six storeys high – can vanish into the wide blue yonder."
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    MikeK said:

    i24news_EN ‏@i24news_EN 18s
    #BREAKING - Russian President Vladimir Putin signs decree that recognizes #Crimea as a sovereign state.

    First step to incorporating Crimea into Russia proper.

    If that's what the Crimeans want, who are we to stop them?
    Because it's breaking the terms of numerous treaties that Russia has signed?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    AveryLP said:

    MrJones said:

    AveryLP said:

    Intereesting news release by ITAR-TASS:

    And, no, it is not about Crimea.

    BISHKEK, March 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak asked Kyrgyz President Almazbek Atambayev by telephone on Monday for assistance in searching for the missing Malaysian Airlines Boeing-777 plane, the Kyrgyz presidential press service reports. The Malaysian premier asked Kyrgyzstan to provide any information which could help in reconstructing the plane’s possible route, which could pass through Kyrgyzstan’s airspace.
    Atambayev promised that the Civil Aviation Agency set up under the Kyrgyz Ministry of Transport and Communications as well as the republic’s air defence forces would provide all the necessary information to Malaysia.


    Just routine or something more?

    There is no other announcement of Kyrgyzstan's neighbours being asked for similar co-operation.

    Looking at the map I wonder what big symbolic targets might be in flying range of Kyrgyzstan?

    edit: Urumqi would be the obvious one i guess
    The known Uighur on board was an oil painter from Kashgar.

    It is possible he didn't want to waste time with a stop-over and flight change at Beijing.

    There's some interesting multilingual analysis of the MH370 situation at a blog I follow:

    http://aviationtroubleshooting.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/data-trail-from-malaysia-mh370-after.html
    http://aviationtroubleshooting.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-re-route.html
    "The people said the transmissions included detailed information about the plane's location, speed and bearing. The transmissions, one person said, were comparable to the plane “saying I'm here, I'm ready to send data.” Unknown so far to investigators is what happened to the plane following the final satellite ping, these people said. "

    So far we were told the ping's do not give information regarding location. If it did, we would have known more by now surely !
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    edited March 2014
    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    edited March 2014
    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Cheer up BaF the south east will have the benefits and the rest of us can vote to raise your taxes accordingly.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    malcolmg said:



    I see you chose to avoid the truth once again , millions upon millions killed by your people and the best you can do is come up with one person who murdered no-one. Dear Dear, bet you are sitting wrapped in your butchers apron singing land of hope and glory.

    Of course, no Scots served for the crown "murdering millions" did they?

    Unlike you and the Union, I do not associate the current SNP leadership with the sins of their fathers, but since you bring it up:

    THE former SNP leader Arthur Donaldson plotted to set up a puppet Nazi government in Scotland, according to a recently released wartime spy report.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305
    Sadly @malcolmg is moving from the denial stage to anger. His spleen venting against Scots past and present who reject his YES orthodoxy is classic of its type.

    As we know the five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. My analysis of the @malcolmg case is that this anger phase is likely to last many months probably through to August.

    The bargaining timeframe will be short as he and his fellow YES delusionists become disorientated and reached out from their absolutism. However as this fudge is rejected the final few weeks will see depression set in until final acceptance of the NO victory moments after the exit poll on 18th September is released.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Cheer up BaF the south east will have the benefits and the rest of us can vote to raise your taxes accorgingly.
    Mr. Brooke

    Please stop being so sarcastic.

    I have had a quiet word on your behalf with our mutual friend.

    He tells me you have been reserved a three bedroomed neo-Georgian semi-detached house in a quiet cul-de-sac in the new Ebbsfleet Garden City.

    Once you move in you will be within 1.5 hours of central Paris.

    No need to buy those smelly Warwickshire cheeses any more. You'll have easy access to Fromagerie Laurent Dubois.

    See here and lick your lips: http://www.fromageslaurentdubois.fr/
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Evening all and on thread, at first this seemed worrying until I remembered that the size of the public sector has been substantially reduced over the past 4 years.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    AndyJS said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    For me, there was something rather magical about the idea of being able to board a train in darkest Manchester or Birmingham and find yourself in Paris or Brussels a few hours later.

    Absolute devastated that they've scrapped that plan in order to please SeanT and Boris Johnson's dad (amongst other Camden residents).
    It's now a half baked scheme and has lost my support for that reason. The current situation is bad enough - the interchange between Euston and StP is awful by Tube - it is actually quicker to walk along Euston Rd (although few tourists know that because no one tells them). Any sort of interchange won't be a great deal better.

    Ed Balls would be forgiven for scrappng this now-perforated project and spend the money on a new link between the Northern Cities.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Cheer up BaF the south east will have the benefits and the rest of us can vote to raise your taxes accordingly.
    Well sadly you would be well within your rights to do so @Alanbrooke
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Cheer up BaF the south east will have the benefits and the rest of us can vote to raise your taxes accorgingly.
    Mr. Brooke

    Please stop being so sarcastic.

    I have had a quiet word on your behalf with our mutual friend.

    He tells me you have been reserved a three bedroomed neo-Georgian semi-detached house in a quiet cul-de-sac in the new Ebbsfleet Garden City.

    Once you move in you will be within 1.5 hours of central Paris.

    No need to buy those smelly Warwickshire cheeses any more. You'll have easy access to Fromagerie Laurent Dubois.

    See here and lick your lips: http://www.fromageslaurentdubois.fr/
    tut tut Mr Pole I can't really see anyone up here trading their palatial acres for an Osborne rabbit hutch. I'm currently about 1.5 hrs from central Paris and would pay to be further away.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    BLUE ON BLUE INCOMING:

    Is there anyone left not tearing a new arse out of other Tories....in the Tory Party?

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/ken-clarke-we-dont-need-treaty-change-to-reform-europe-and-my-eurosceptic-colleagues-are-eccentric/
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    "Clarke and other members of the group also attacked their eurosceptic colleagues, with the Minister Without Portfolio describing them as ‘some of my more strident, and dare I say, even occasionally eccentric colleagues who I’ve seen over the years become household names for a year or two, whilst they last an then others take over and succeed them’." All good fun.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    Doesn't matter which way you cut it geographically Londons in the way
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Evening all and on thread, at first this seemed worrying until I remembered that the size of the public sector has been substantially reduced over the past 4 years.

    There's an article on The Spectator's website about the recent scottish tory conference that you might like.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/ruth-davidson-gives-the-scottish-tories-grounds-for-hope-at-last/
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Apart from plotting around their next leader,the Tories do love banging on about Europe so much they simply cannot stop.
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/ken-clarke-we-dont-need-treaty-change-to-reform-europe-and-my-eurosceptic-colleagues-are-eccentric/
  • EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 354
    In today's Cosmology news I see that scientists have discovered that inflation was imprinted on the early Universe from the first trillionth of a second.



    So Gordon Brown not to blame after all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    CNN/ORC GOP nomination 2016
    •Rand Paul 16% {13%} [13%] (13%)
    •Paul Ryan 15% {9%} [11%] (16%)
    •Rick Perry 11% {8%} [7%] (6%)
    •Mike Huckabee 10% {14%}
    •Jeb Bush 9% {10%} [6%] (10%)
    •Chris Christie 8% {10%} [24%] (17%)
    •Ted Cruz 8% {8%} [10%] (7%)
    •Marco Rubio 5% {9%} [9%] (9%)
    •Rick Santorum 3% {4%} [6%] (5%)
    •Someone else (vol.) 6% {8%} [6%] (6%)
    •None/No one (vol.) 4% {3%} [2%] (4%)
    •No opinion 5% {4%} [6%] (6%)
    http://www.argojournal.com/2014/03/poll-watch-cnnorc-2016-republican.html

    Could we also have a survey of private sector workers?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    On the aircraft this fellow seems to have come up with a very plausible explanation, one that doesn't require any conspiracy or crime but does cover all the facts as known

    https://plus.google.com/106271056358366282907/posts/GoeVjHJaGBz

    Most plausible theory so far...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.. Just how many people per day would want to travel by train rather than fly from Manchester or Leeds or Birmingham? Enough to justify spending £700m on the link plus running immigration and security and each of the HS2 stations?

    The justification for spending tens of billions on HS2 is that we need the capacity, how does the link to HS1 fit with that.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    Now this would take Blue on Blue to another level, as this is a man who takes no prisoners:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/melanie-mcdonagh/2014/03/david-davis-should-be-in-cabinet-or-at-least-in-government/

    "Lately it was Michael Gove stating the obvious, that the Prime Minister mixes mostly with people with backgrounds like his own…a perfectly human impulse, but not a good look, the Old Etonian coterie."
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2014

    Now this would take Blue on Blue to another level, as this is a man who takes no prisoners:



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/melanie-mcdonagh/2014/03/david-davis-should-be-in-cabinet-or-at-least-in-government/

    "Lately it was Michael Gove stating the obvious, that the Prime Minister mixes mostly with people with backgrounds like his own…a perfectly human impulse, but not a good look, the Old Etonian coterie."


    "***" you are getting a tad repetitive.

    GOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL !
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.. Just how many people per day would want to travel by train rather than fly from Manchester or Leeds or Birmingham? Enough to justify spending £700m on the link plus running immigration and security and each of the HS2 stations?

    The justification for spending tens of billions on HS2 is that we need the capacity, how does the link to HS1 fit with that.

    The great thing about the scheme was that it linked the UK network seemlessly with the European network. It will no longer do this.

    To answer your specific question, I suspect Birmingham to Paris would have been time-competitive with the flight, with much less inconvenience and faffing around.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    edited March 2014

    Now this would take Blue on Blue to another level, as this is a man who takes no prisoners:



    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/melanie-mcdonagh/2014/03/david-davis-should-be-in-cabinet-or-at-least-in-government/

    "Lately it was Michael Gove stating the obvious, that the Prime Minister mixes mostly with people with backgrounds like his own…a perfectly human impulse, but not a good look, the Old Etonian coterie."


    "***" you are getting a tad repetitive.

    GOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL !
    So is the Blue on Blue action, incoming on a daily basis.

    BOJOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2014

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    I completely agree that it wouldn't make sense in purely economic terms. But sometimes you just have to do something because it's the right thing to do, and connecting the rest of the UK up to the continent would just be the right thing to do, in historical terms.

    Another point: if it turned out that there was a demand for such as service in 20 to 30 years' time, the cost of re-doing the whole thing would probably be at least 10 times what it would be if it was done now. It's a bit like the M5 originally being built with just two lanes because no-one envisaged there would ever be enough traffic to warrant three lanes. When they eventually had to widen it, the costs were gigantic. Countless bridges had to be knocked down and built again, etc.
  • CopperSulphateCopperSulphate Posts: 1,119
    Tony Benn loathed the privileges of the likes of the Tories. He battled nepotism, entitlement and the formation of the political elite during his time in the commons.

    As did his father, both his grandfathers and his son as a MP today.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2014
    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    But HS2 will have nothing to do with an independent Scotland.

    Unlike @malcolmg who has moved to the anger phase you remain in blissful denial. Independence is what is says on the tin. You get zero say in UK matters.

    UK decisions that effect Scotland will be at the complete discretion of the Westminster government but clearly that will not worry Eck as he forges ahead with his "Arc of Prosperity"

    Ribaldry all round.


  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    You forget his grand daughter, Emily Benn PPC: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Benn

    Perhaps it was a AWS.



    Tony Benn loathed the privileges of the likes of the Tories. He battled nepotism, entitlement and the formation of the political elite during his time in the commons.

    As did his father, both his grandfathers and his son as a MP today.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    AndyJS said:

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    I completely agree that it wouldn't make sense in purely economic terms. But sometimes you just have to do something because it's the right thing to do, and connecting the rest of the UK up to the continent would just be the right thing to do, in historical terms.

    Another point: if it turned out that there was a demand for such as service in 20 to 30 years' time, the cost of re-doing the whole thing would probably be at least 10 times what it would be if it was done now. It's a bit like the M5 originally being built with just two lanes because no-one envisaged there would ever be enough traffic to warrant three lanes. When they eventually had to widen it, the costs were gigantic. Countless bridges had to be knocked down and built again, etc.
    Borrowing the thick end of a billion, plus annual revenue costs, which will probably be into seven figures, to provide a service that will be slower and more expensive than flying and so will be used by very few people seems utterly daft to me.

    The right thing to do might be not to load our children with more debt than we really have to.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    edited March 2014
    I think of myself as a Nottingham politician, but can't really get worked up over whether I need to stroll down the road at St Pancras to Euston or not. I probably go to the Continent more than 98% of the popularion, but that's still only going to be about an hour of my life every year. If the tradeoff is getting HS2 faster, I could live with that (said he, smiling seductively at JJ).
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    AndyJS said:

    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern alone link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    But HS2 will have nothing to do with an independent Scotland.

    Unlike @malcolmg who has moved to the anger phase you remain in blissful denial. Independence is what is says on the tin. You get zero say in UK matters.

    UK decisions that effect Scotland will be at the complete discretion of the Westminster government but clearly that will not worry Eck as he forges ahead with his "Arc of Prosperity"

    Ribaldry all round.


    I'd like to see you apply that argument to most of the EWNI population at the other end of HS2.

    And, until independence, my taxes are being wasted on this nonsense.

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    AndyJS said:
    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern Line link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel. The latter is certainly no longer the case and the former need not be - mobile technology should enable on-board checks.

    As an aside, for those who say it's quicker by air from, say, W Yorkshire or Manchester to Paris or Brussels than by rail, I'm not sure that's necessarily true now if you look at the door-to-door times, never mind what it would be with HS2.

    As for the terminus issue, I don't know what the costs are (probably prohibitive) but a new station between Kings Cross and St Pancras, making a Grand London International, would be the most integrated solution.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    The Midlands boom in manufacturing does have its downsides, Tyke.

    We so rarely have the pleasure of reading Mr. Brooke's posts.

    And another_richard is but a ghost of PB's past.

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    I completely agree that it wouldn't make sense in purely economic terms. But sometimes you just have to do something because it's the right thing to do, and connecting the rest of the UK up to the continent would just be the right thing to do, in historical terms.

    Another point: if it turned out that there was a demand for such as service in 20 to 30 years' time, the cost of re-doing the whole thing would probably be at least 10 times what it would be if it was done now. It's a bit like the M5 originally being built with just two lanes because no-one envisaged there would ever be enough traffic to warrant three lanes. When they eventually had to widen it, the costs were gigantic. Countless bridges had to be knocked down and built again, etc.
    Borrowing the thick end of a billion, plus annual revenue costs, which will probably be into seven figures, to provide a service that will be slower and more expensive than flying and so will be used by very few people seems utterly daft to me.

    The right thing to do might be not to load our children with more debt than we really have to.
    Show me how you calculate that Birmingham to Paris would be quicker by air, centre to centre.

    Also have you factored in environmental externalities?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    AndyJS said:

    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    Evening all and on thread, at first this seemed worrying until I remembered that the size of the public sector has been substantially reduced over the past 4 years.

    There's an article on The Spectator's website about the recent scottish tory conference that you might like.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/ruth-davidson-gives-the-scottish-tories-grounds-for-hope-at-last/

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    Doesn't matter which way you cut it geographically Londons in the way
    Well, of course it is if you run all the main line railways into it and then stop short. Even being able to go through it without having to get off the train would be something.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    BobaFett said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern alone link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.
    £700 million is a lot for a 7 minute walk of 640metres.....and Higgins said they should look at improving the access between the two as part of the Euston redevelopment.....

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel.
    And (3) they could not make London to Paris profitable, let alone regional routes.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    BobaFett said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern alone link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.
    £700 million is a lot for a 7 minute walk of 640metres.....and Higgins said they should look at improving the access between the two as part of the Euston redevelopment.....

    You will still have to change trains and walk that, or else faff about with some form of travelator, or - God help us - a monorail/shuttle. It will add lots of time to the journey because of the stopping and starting and will be a pain. The marginal cost won't be £700m either - as the linkage or whatever it is to be called will cost a few bob.

    Better it suck it up and do it properly.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    But HS2 will have nothing to do with an independent Scotland.

    Unlike @malcolmg who has moved to the anger phase you remain in blissful denial. Independence is what is says on the tin. You get zero say in UK matters.

    UK decisions that effect Scotland will be at the complete discretion of the Westminster government but clearly that will not worry Eck as he forges ahead with his "Arc of Prosperity"

    Ribaldry all round.


    I'd like to see you apply that argument to most of the EWNI population at the other end of HS2.

    And, until independence, my taxes are being wasted on this nonsense.

    It's difficult to reason with you because you're still in the denial phase.

    Sadly for you it'll get worse before it get better and the light at the end of the HS2 tunnel is far, far away.

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel. The latter is certainly no longer the case and the former need not be - mobile technology should enable on-board checks.

    As an aside, for those who say it's quicker by air from, say, W Yorkshire or Manchester to Paris or Brussels than by rail, I'm not sure that's necessarily true now if you look at the door-to-door times, never mind what it would be with HS2.

    As for the terminus issue, I don't know what the costs are (probably prohibitive) but a new station between Kings Cross and St Pancras, making a Grand London International, would be the most integrated solution.
    Good post David.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel.
    And (3) they could not make London to Paris profitable, let alone regional routes.
    That's because running a railway is a cost of running an economy. Very few railways are profitable - hence the gigantic subsidy to the UK network ;-)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    But HS2 will have nothing to do with an independent Scotland.

    Unlike @malcolmg who has moved to the anger phase you remain in blissful denial. Independence is what is says on the tin. You get zero say in UK matters.

    UK decisions that effect Scotland will be at the complete discretion of the Westminster government but clearly that will not worry Eck as he forges ahead with his "Arc of Prosperity"

    Ribaldry all round.


    I'd like to see you apply that argument to most of the EWNI population at the other end of HS2.

    And, until independence, my taxes are being wasted on this nonsense.

    It's difficult to reason with you because you're still in the denial phase.

    Sadly for you it'll get worse before it get better and the light at the end of the HS2 tunnel is far, far away.

    I have just given you a coherent argument that it affects a lot more people than just those in Scotland. If you think it is just a matter of Scottish politics then you are in denial.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest McARSE Referendum Projection Countdown :

    12 hours 12 minutes 12 seconds
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    BobaFett said:

    BobaFett said:

    AndyJS said:

    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern alone link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.
    £700 million is a lot for a 7 minute walk of 640metres.....and Higgins said they should look at improving the access between the two as part of the Euston redevelopment.....

    The marginal cost won't be £700m either
    You're right - it will be more for the dedicated immigration control platforms at the en-route stations....
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel.
    And (3) they could not make London to Paris profitable, let alone regional routes.
    The problem with Northerners navigating the journey between Euston and St. Pancras is that they frequently get lost.

    Fitting each with unconfigurable transponders may well exceed the cost of converging the railway lines.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    SeanT said:

    BobaFett said:

    AndyJS said:
    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern Line link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.

    The HS2 link would have destroyed Camden Town, turning it into a horrific building site (9 bridges entirely rebuilt etc) for a decade or more. Camden Markets are a precious asset for London and the UK - generation hundreds of million annually, with all kinds of positive spin offs (and they suck in young tourists by the trillion). And all this would be threatened with irreversible damage just so that 3 trains an hour - 3 - could run directly into St Pancras.

    Instead, people will now have to, um, go one stop on the Tube, taking 3 minutes, never even seeing the streets of London (if they don't want). which is less hassle, as Higgins says, than changing terminals at Heathrow.

    The right choice was made.

    Wrong. Dead wrong.

    You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. I am it aware of the exact plans re the market, but things can be done.

    And you won't make that transfer in three minutes in a million years. Not possible.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    SeanT said:
    » show previous quotes
    The HS2 link would have destroyed Camden Town, turning it into a horrific building site (9 bridges entirely rebuilt etc) for a decade or more. Camden Markets are a precious asset for London and the UK - generation hundreds of million annually, with all kinds of positive spin offs (and they suck in young tourists by the trillion). And all this would be threatened with irreversible damage just so that 3 trains an hour - 3 - could run directly into St Pancras.

    Instead, people will now have to, um, go one stop on the Tube, taking 3 minutes, never even seeing the streets of London (if they don't want). which is less hassle, as Higgins says, than changing terminals at Heathrow.

    The right choice was made.

    Wrong. Dead wrong.

    You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. I am not aware of the exact plans re the market, but things can be done.

    And you won't make that transfer in three minutes in a million years. Not possible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2014
    AveryLP said:

    I wonder what sort of demand there would be for direct train journeys between the Northern Cities and Paris, Brussels etc.

    Quite. Regional Eurostar never got off the ground for that reason. Higgins made the point today that Euston and St Pancras are close (a lot closer than the Paris TGV termini, for example) and that the Euston redevelopment should look at improving transfer between the two.....

    Regional Eurostar never got off the ground (1) because of the passport issue and (2) because (I think) there was no decent link from north London to the Channel.
    And (3) they could not make London to Paris profitable, let alone regional routes.
    The problem with Northerners navigating the journey between Euston and St. Pancras is that they frequently get lost.
    How difficult is "out the front, turn left"? God help them if they try to change termini in Paris!

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Carnyx said:



    Evening all and on thread, at first this seemed worrying until I remembered that the size of the public sector has been substantially reduced over the past 4 years.

    There's an article on The Spectator's website about the recent scottish tory conference that you might like.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/ruth-davidson-gives-the-scottish-tories-grounds-for-hope-at-last/

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    This is a mistake, regardless of SeanT's raptures over his house price.

    Agreed. It s absolutely disgraceful. Just like John Major and his privatization plans that anyone from the Stockton and Darlington Railway could have told him through a Ouija board wouldn't work, the modern Tories are bent on repeating the mistakes of the early 19th century. I know the UK invented railways (well, more or less) but they don't have to reinvent the concept of a disconnected network!!

    It sends a very strong message also to everyone north of Watford that only London matters - that the provincials don't need to go anywhere else.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    Doesn't matter which way you cut it geographically Londons in the way
    Well, of course it is if you run all the main line railways into it and then stop short. Even being able to go through it without having to get off the train would be something.

    No passenger service to the continent from anywhere north or west of London is going to bypass it. One of the great advantages of trains is that you can get on and off at intermediate stations. Just because a service runs from, say, Edinburgh to Paris (on present lines), it shouldn't mean that people can't use it from Newcastle to York, from Edinburgh to London, or from Peterborough to Lille.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    BobaFett said:

    SeanT said:

    BobaFett said:

    AndyJS said:
    Another thing: it would have been nice for people in provincial cities to have been able to go directly by train to continental cities without even having to think about London. You could have just ignored it completely - closed your eyes for that part of the journey, or whatever.

    Now, once again, people doing the journey will have no choice but to have London pushed in their faces in the shape of either a walk between Euston and St Pancras, a tube journey where it takes longer going up and down the escalators and steps than the train journey itself, or a taxi costing £10 for a half a mile trip.

    It basically increases the faff factor from almost zero to lots. There are fewer places in London, perhaps the world, more inhospitable than the Euston Road, which is a traffic choked corridor of hell. One of the few places that is worse is the Northern Line link between the two stations

    £700m isn't much to make the line seamless.

    The HS2 link would have destroyed Camden Town, turning it into a horrific building site (9 bridges entirely rebuilt etc) for a decade or more. Camden Markets are a precious asset for London and the UK - generation hundreds of million annually, with all kinds of positive spin offs (and they suck in young tourists by the trillion). And all this would be threatened with irreversible damage just so that 3 trains an hour - 3 - could run directly into St Pancras.

    Instead, people will now have to, um, go one stop on the Tube, taking 3 minutes, never even seeing the streets of London (if they don't want). which is less hassle, as Higgins says, than changing terminals at Heathrow.

    The right choice was made.


    And you won't make that transfer in three minutes in a million years. Not possible.
    Quite right. The TFL journey planner times it at 4 minutes, the walk at 8.....

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    EXCLUSIVE - "old man Petomane" Latest Referendum Projection Countdown :

    12 hours 13minutes 13seconds.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    New thread
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2014
    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    JackW said:

    Carnyx said:

    BobaFett said:

    Just catching up with the news on HS2. So AndyJS is right and now the bloody thing is going to be entirely separate from HS1 and there will be no through trains? Yet again London is to be the beginning and end of all routes, just as it was in Victorian times, and remains.

    And how exactly will this will concern your fantasy independent Scotland ?

    Because my taxes are already being wasted on this nonsense. And because we need proper integrated transport systems to the rest of Europe, bypassing London (as does most of the UK, for that matter).


    But HS2 will have nothing to do with an independent Scotland.

    Unlike @malcolmg who has moved to the anger phase you remain in blissful denial. Independence is what is says on the tin. You get zero say in UK matters.

    UK decisions that effect Scotland will be at the complete discretion of the Westminster government but clearly that will not worry Eck as he forges ahead with his "Arc of Prosperity"

    Ribaldry all round.


    I'd like to see you apply that argument to most of the EWNI population at the other end of HS2.

    And, until independence, my taxes are being wasted on this nonsense.

    It's difficult to reason with you because you're still in the denial phase.

    Sadly for you it'll get worse before it get better and the light at the end of the HS2 tunnel is far, far away.

    I have just given you a coherent argument that it affects a lot more people than just those in Scotland. If you think it is just a matter of Scottish politics then you are in denial.

    .....................................................................

    JackW replies :

    Far from being "coherent" it's simply the delusion dribble of a YES denialist.

    HS2 is NOT a matter for an independent Scotland. You seem to believe that you get any say whatsoever in matters of no sovereign concern to you. You don't.

    You get no say on the £ or any official use thereof. No say on interest rates or any economic policy that the UK takes and that may will have implications on an independent Scotland.

    I'm not too sure when the penny will finally drop for some in the YES camp but an independent Scotland means that it becomes a foreign nation to the UK and all that will mean.

    It's not a wee prentendy country with the whirling mists of the glens as a backdrop to the sound of the pipes that beckons but the harsh economic and social reality of divorce from the rest of the UK and all that situation brings with it.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    EXCLUSIVE - Sneak preview of a 'flavour' the blanket coverage that will be given to the "old man Petomane" Referendum Projection.

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  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Would flying from Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham be quicker than HS2. I think so, even taking into account the faffing around one has to do at airports these days London to Paris is about two and a quarter hours add an hour on from Manchester a bit more from Leeds and a bit less from Birmingham so the journey time is around three and a quarter to three and a half hours at best. Flight time from Manchester is one hour 20 at best, flights from Leeds and Birmingham will be about the same. The door to door journey time depends on individuals where they are coming from and where they are going to and cannot really be used as a comparator.

    However, I come back to what is the demand? The business case, such as it is, for HS2 rests on the need for more rail capacity between London and the Northern cities. How does the link with HS1 fit with that? It might be a nice thing to be able to travel in a comfortable train from Manchester to Paris without having to faff around in London but is there a business case for it? How many passengers per day would use the service?
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