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After the Veep debate Trump is now the favourite – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Meanwhile Apple has come with a wet sail and its top three viewed series are Slow Horses (excellent), Ted Lasso (excellent), and Bad Monkey (very good indeed).

    They seem to be leading the pack atm.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,231
    edited October 2

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    I did feel like apologising to random tourists on the streets as they were cowering in their pac-a-macs in the gloom walking around the West End.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 92
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi on Today at the moment. She’s already getting cross with Mishal for the impertinence of asking her for policy proposals.

    She's kind of right though. Now is not the time for detailed policy, which will only invite the question of why they did not try it when they ran the country less than six months ago. Now is the time for philosophy and broad direction of travel, for strategy and tactics, for aspiration and vision.

    But not getting cross is a key political skill that Kemi needs to work on. It is useful in real life too, especially for night time posting on PB.
    Is she ?
    If you raise a political topic, as a politician, you ought at least to have a rough idea of how you might go about addressing it.

    Of course no one expects detailed policy from her, but the odd clue might be good.
    Until a few months ago, she was a cabinet minister, so she's had more opportunity than most opposition MPs - indeed has been required to have considered views on all manner of policy.
    The problem is indeed the contradiction. She’s repeatedly pointed out specific problems as examples of what needs fixing, then refused to say whether she would fix them.

    This morning it was all about small businesses having too much regulation and red tape. Then and got shirty when asked what regulations she would tackle.
    Any politician talking about excessive regulation should be asked if they've read the long detailed section in the Grenfell Tower Fire Report on the consequences of "deregulation" for building fire safety or the section dealing with the consequences of fire safety assessors (often operating as small, very small in some cases, businesses) not having to comply with any minimum regulations on training, qualifications or competence.

    Then they can turn to the evidence of Lord Pickles who, in a vain attempt to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of the policies he loudly espoused, tried to claim that he didn't really mean them and civil servants should have ignored what he said because campaigning was not the same as governing.

    Badenoch like so many politicians seems incapable of thinking anything through properly.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,032
    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile Apple has come with a wet sail and its top three viewed series are Slow Horses (excellent), Ted Lasso (excellent), and Bad Monkey (very good indeed).

    They seem to be leading the pack atm.

    There were previously rumours that Apple were shopping for a major studio but didn't want Paramount, I wouldn't be surprised if they buy WB/HBO from Discovery within the next 2-3 years, it would match their prestige image and give them huge cultural significance. It would also be a way for Tim Cook to troll Bezos who spent way too much money on MGM.
  • Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    USA?

    USSR surely?
    No, the Taliban was born out of factions within the Mujahideen. They in turn were effectively created (or at least turned into a force to be reckoned with) by the USA to fight against the Russians. The USA provided the vast majority of the money and much of the equipment to turn the Mujahideen into an effective opposition. The Taliban elements won the subsequent civil war after the Russians withdrew. Sadly much of that equipment then got used against the Western allies after 2001.
    The Taliban were largely a creation of Pakistani Intelligence.
    In their later form. But their birth out of the Mujahideen could not have come about without the support of the USA. Indeed there is a question of how much the Pakistani intelligence agencies were doing the USAs work for them.
    Their birth came out of the USSRs invasion and they were a backlash to that, not the USA.

    The USA funded them to encourage and support that backlash (my enemies enemy logic) and Pakistan funded them too, but it was the USSR which they were a backlash to which created them, not the USA.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It’s nothing to do with Woke, it’s all to do with “it’s shit”
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,898

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    Can he beat Jenrick in the member's vote?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,522
    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I don’t think orc families are a bad idea. Orcs are “human”, that is incarnate beings capable of reason. There’s no reason why they should not care for their mates, and offspring.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes. Not to see who he was - but she didn't trust him on instinct (same as Feanor) and pointed out that no-one recognised him, who'd lived in Valinor.

    So you have an unknown angel (fallen in this case) rocking up - with fake ID.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    I did feel like apologising to random tourists on the streets as they were cowering in their pac-a-macs in the gloom walking around the West End.
    Yep, warmer air has a higher capacity for moisture and warmer seas have higher evaporation...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    USA?

    USSR surely?
    No, the Taliban was born out of factions within the Mujahideen. They in turn were effectively created (or at least turned into a force to be reckoned with) by the USA to fight against the Russians. The USA provided the vast majority of the money and much of the equipment to turn the Mujahideen into an effective opposition. The Taliban elements won the subsequent civil war after the Russians withdrew. Sadly much of that equipment then got used against the Western allies after 2001.
    The Taliban were largely a creation of Pakistani Intelligence.
    In their later form. But their birth out of the Mujahideen could not have come about without the support of the USA. Indeed there is a question of how much the Pakistani intelligence agencies were doing the USAs work for them.
    Nope - they were always anti-western. Indeed, that was a big part of the reason for their existence.

    Note that the murder of the leader of the Northern Alliance was part of 9/11 attacks - a job done by Bin Liner for his friends and hosts.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Dopermean said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    I did feel like apologising to random tourists on the streets as they were cowering in their pac-a-macs in the gloom walking around the West End.
    Yep, warmer air has a higher capacity for moisture and warmer seas have higher evaporation...
    Are you saying I should tell them it's their own stupid fault for flying here in the first place.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,522

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    edited October 2
    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    So last round Jenrick led Badenoch by 4, Stride had 12 but likely to lean Cleverly / Tugendhat.
    Where's Jenrick"s surplus coming from?
    Unless you think he's already used surplus support to manipulate the vote...
  • TOPPING said:

    Dopermean said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    I did feel like apologising to random tourists on the streets as they were cowering in their pac-a-macs in the gloom walking around the West End.
    Yep, warmer air has a higher capacity for moisture and warmer seas have higher evaporation...
    Are you saying I should tell them it's their own stupid fault for flying here in the first place.
    Anyone who flies to England and is shocked by rainfall is deserving of as much sympathy as those who fly to the Dubai are are shocked that it's a bit hot.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    AnthonyT said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi on Today at the moment. She’s already getting cross with Mishal for the impertinence of asking her for policy proposals.

    She's kind of right though. Now is not the time for detailed policy, which will only invite the question of why they did not try it when they ran the country less than six months ago. Now is the time for philosophy and broad direction of travel, for strategy and tactics, for aspiration and vision.

    But not getting cross is a key political skill that Kemi needs to work on. It is useful in real life too, especially for night time posting on PB.
    Is she ?
    If you raise a political topic, as a politician, you ought at least to have a rough idea of how you might go about addressing it.

    Of course no one expects detailed policy from her, but the odd clue might be good.
    Until a few months ago, she was a cabinet minister, so she's had more opportunity than most opposition MPs - indeed has been required to have considered views on all manner of policy.
    The problem is indeed the contradiction. She’s repeatedly pointed out specific problems as examples of what needs fixing, then refused to say whether she would fix them.

    This morning it was all about small businesses having too much regulation and red tape. Then and got shirty when asked what regulations she would tackle.
    Any politician talking about excessive regulation should be asked if they've read the long detailed section in the Grenfell Tower Fire Report on the consequences of "deregulation" for building fire safety or the section dealing with the consequences of fire safety assessors (often operating as small, very small in some cases, businesses) not having to comply with any minimum regulations on training, qualifications or competence.

    Then they can turn to the evidence of Lord Pickles who, in a vain attempt to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of the policies he loudly espoused, tried to claim that he didn't really mean them and civil servants should have ignored what he said because campaigning was not the same as governing.

    Badenoch like so many politicians seems incapable of thinking anything through properly.
    The question is - what does the actual regulation do?

    A friend, on the management committee for his block, discovered that it was structurally deficient, in addition to the cladding fun. The building company had *rooms* of paperwork on the project. They'd managed to not include any info on testing the concrete, though. Or the flammability of the cladding. Funny that.

    The cladding testing reminds me of the testing of British heavy shells for the Royal Navy pre WWI - the tests were elaborate bullshit.

    Process and regulation is often used to *hide* defects and problems.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I don’t think orc families are a bad idea. Orcs are “human”, that is incarnate beings capable of reason. There’s no reason why they should not care for their mates, and offspring.
    Not only are they not a bad idea, they are actually something written about by Tolkein. He changed the origin lore for orcs several times over his lifetime but he did state that after their initial creation they bred like men.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it


    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    Demonstrates just how lucky we've had it in the West Highlands. Some of the best mountain conditions we've had in September for years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    I'd say that was about right. Making Faramir an arse and Meat Loaf Denethor....

    The Hobbit films started well and then rapidly became bizarre dreck, incidentally.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it

    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    For the first time in recent history the Conservative Party has a majority of Wets !
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
    Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role wasn't especially bad - he has that one scene, really. Given who she is the daughter of, not terribly surprising if she has power in the Unseen.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    Leon said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It’s nothing to do with Woke, it’s all to do with “it’s shit”
    I will also posit that (at risk of angering Tolkien fans) it suffers from source material being rather lacking.

    LOTR is a great epic yarn and The Hobbit a fun children’s fantasy book, but while Tolkien’s legend and history building is very impressive, it’s rather scholarly in tone, and not very immediate for the reader.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    History is full of this - you can't conduct foreign policy solely on the basis of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It has a place but in moderation. We propped up some odious regimes during the Cold War because the alternative, as we saw it, was to have that country run by Communists reporting to Moscow.

    The other basis on which geopolitical policy should never be conducted is "two wrongs make a right".

    We need to move away from the mistakes of the past and embrace the mistakes of the future (too cynical?). All I can see is another old adage which goes something like people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble. The notion capitalism and prosperity can temper conflicts has been tested with some success though it has to be said it's less effective in religious conflicts when fanaticism trumps reason.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the aim of making Lebanon or Yemen a better place for their inhabitants.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Leon said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It’s nothing to do with Woke, it’s all to do with “it’s shit”
    I will also posit that (at risk of angering Tolkien fans) it suffers from source material being rather lacking.

    LOTR is a great epic yarn and The Hobbit a fun children’s fantasy book, but while Tolkien’s legend and history building is very impressive, it’s rather scholarly in tone, and not very immediate for the reader.
    On the other hand, he produced a detailed history for the writers to flesh out. They chose to do this.

    The real problem is that it was written like a low quality, soap opera series. With a Shock! Plot! Twist! round every corner. And lots of the inconsistency in the world building.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    edited October 2
    Blistering argument on my Facebook feed about the council tax banding of new two-bed flats. People comparing mansions in Morningside with Granton/Leith. Stunning townhouses in the New Town with detached shit boxes in Musselburgh.

    Would take some care, but definitely an opening for Labour to deal with this*. It's probably one of the more regressive taxes and one of the few that apply to people on the very lowest incomes.

    *Devolved in Scotland but the same applies if Labour are looking to form the next government in Holyrood.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,033
    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    You’re not imagining it

    “Another scale busting map!

    September rainfall for the UK.

    Huge variation but parts of southern England seeing over three & a half times their average rainfall.

    Incredibly Bedfordshire & Oxfordshire saw their wettest month (of any month) in at least 188 years.”

    https://x.com/davethroup/status/1841152300011683959?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Welcome to the New British Climate™️

    For the first time in recent history the Conservative Party has a majority of Wets !
    In September?

    In June maybe, but I'm pretty sure Labour had a majority of Wets by September.

    A majority of Conservatives may have been Wet in September, but they were not a majority of Wets.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    He's played it very Cleverly.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    She'd only mangle the point and end up saying that 5-10% of immigrants should be euthanised.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    He's played it very Cleverly.
    Maybe Jenrick will have another daughter and name her Beverly Cleverly...
  • stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    History is full of this - you can't conduct foreign policy solely on the basis of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It has a place but in moderation. We propped up some odious regimes during the Cold War because the alternative, as we saw it, was to have that country run by Communists reporting to Moscow.

    The other basis on which geopolitical policy should never be conducted is "two wrongs make a right".

    We need to move away from the mistakes of the past and embrace the mistakes of the future (too cynical?). All I can see is another old adage which goes something like people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble. The notion capitalism and prosperity can temper conflicts has been tested with some success though it has to be said it's less effective in religious conflicts when fanaticism trumps reason.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the aim of making Lebanon or Yemen a better place for their inhabitants.
    While I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of encouraging capitalism and democracy and think that prosperity is the best avenue to peace, I must admit that China is testing to destruction the notion that people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    Selebian said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    He's played it very Cleverly.
    Maybe Jenrick will have another daughter and name her Beverly Cleverly...
    I'm sorry for that poor girl. Her second name is going to be a talking point all her life.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632
    TimS said:

    Kemi is an interesting contrast with Jenrick. She’s very clear about what she thinks the problem is, but vague on solutions.

    He’s very clear the solution to everything is to leave the ECHR, but he can’t explain with honesty what problems he thinks that actually fixes.

    There's a longish list of problems the UK needs to address and most of them are in the too-hard basket for the sort of politics we have. Very tempting therefore for an aspiring young politician like Robert Jenrick to look beyond the list and create a 'problem' that he likes talking about and that he can 'solve'.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,231
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,981

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,981

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    You could say the same for "some" of the Star Trek franchises too although the last one, Picard, seems to have been a triumph.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 620
    Are there any markets on the vote share for the next 2 MP rounds?
    Thinking Cleverly could be value to top the final round, assuming Tugendhat is eliminated next.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
    Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role wasn't especially bad - he has that one scene, really. Given who she is the daughter of, not terribly surprising if she has power in the Unseen.
    It removed one of the most powerful elf figures in the whole Canon.

    But my real point is the films made massive changes to lore, far more so than RoP. There are dozens of examples. And most of the 'lore' criticisms directed at RoP are clearly based on the crtics not actually knowing the lore in the first place.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    edited October 2
    Eabhal said:

    Blistering argument on my Facebook feed about the council tax banding of new two-bed flats. People comparing mansions in Morningside with Granton/Leith. Stunning townhouses in the New Town with detached shit boxes in Musselburgh.

    Would take some care, but definitely an opening for Labour to deal with this*. It's probably one of the more regressive taxes and one of the few that apply to people on the very lowest incomes.

    *Devolved in Scotland but the same applies if Labour are looking to form the next government in Holyrood.

    Don’t think the banding has anything to do with government of any stripe? Non statutory Scottish Assessors Association I believe.

    Of course SLab could with their customary bravery and flair offer a revamp of the whole council tax system in Scotland.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379
    As somebody more used to the Star Wars/Star Trek[1]/Dr Who fan arguments, I have to say this LOTR argument on here is far more refined. Nobody here has threatened anybody yet. Well done.

    [1] the pylons on the USS Enterprise in the Discovery era should not be that shape and if you think otherwise you are against God and should die.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
    As a general rule I don't watch films made (I use the term loosely) from books I've enjoyed. I've found I ended up irritated, disappointed, or both.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Watch out for the policy on establishing more private airfields.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
    Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role wasn't especially bad - he has that one scene, really. Given who she is the daughter of, not terribly surprising if she has power in the Unseen.
    It removed one of the most powerful elf figures in the whole Canon.

    But my real point is the films made massive changes to lore, far more so than RoP. There are dozens of examples. And most of the 'lore' criticisms directed at RoP are clearly based on the crtics not actually knowing the lore in the first place.
    As someone who has read pretty much all of the source material. Including The Annotated Shopping Lists of JRR Tolkien, by Christopher Tolkien*, 2,564 pages.

    I can agree. A bit.

    But the soap opera plotting and setting just feels like the Warcraft film (had to sit through part of that one, when some friends of my youngest daughter were having a sleep over. The horror. The horror.)

    *Which includes a forward by Christopher Tolkien decrying the crass commercialisation of his father's work.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
    Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role wasn't especially bad - he has that one scene, really. Given who she is the daughter of, not terribly surprising if she has power in the Unseen.
    It removed one of the most powerful elf figures in the whole Canon.

    But my real point is the films made massive changes to lore, far more so than RoP. There are dozens of examples. And most of the 'lore' criticisms directed at RoP are clearly based on the crtics not actually knowing the lore in the first place.
    RoP may be one of the only three I have never read (along with Adventures of the Green Knight, and the one with background about Tom Bombadil).

    Is it tenable as an audiobook?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
    As a general rule I don't watch films made (I use the term loosely) from books I've enjoyed. I've found I ended up irritated, disappointed, or both.
    Clint Eastwood was told, to his face, that he was a bad film maker. Because the film Firefox followed the book *too* closely.

    Some rather fun stuff came out about how the writers and execs on the Harry Potter films *hated* being forced to keep reasonably close to the books.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,585
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    History is full of this - you can't conduct foreign policy solely on the basis of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It has a place but in moderation. We propped up some odious regimes during the Cold War because the alternative, as we saw it, was to have that country run by Communists reporting to Moscow.

    The other basis on which geopolitical policy should never be conducted is "two wrongs make a right".

    We need to move away from the mistakes of the past and embrace the mistakes of the future (too cynical?). All I can see is another old adage which goes something like people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble. The notion capitalism and prosperity can temper conflicts has been tested with some success though it has to be said it's less effective in religious conflicts when fanaticism trumps reason.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the aim of making Lebanon or Yemen a better place for their inhabitants.
    When there are no "good guys" to choose from, my preference would be to choose "bad guys with a local agenda" than "bad guys with an international/global agenda".
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited October 2

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    This is a known, flawed process with big budget movies and drama. Because they spend so much money they panic about the script. They hire five great writers. Then they panic again and they hire a great script doctor. Then they get an old veteran to do a rewrite again. Then they panic again and get two new writers in and then it gets another redraft and then of course every producer must have his say - and the result is a terrible mess of a script with no coherent story or character lines. But at least no one individual can be blamed any more as so many were involved

    One might see parallels elsewhere…
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    viewcode said:

    As somebody more used to the Star Wars/Star Trek[1]/Dr Who fan arguments, I have to say this LOTR argument on here is far more refined. Nobody here has threatened anybody yet. Well done.

    [1] the pylons on the USS Enterprise in the Discovery era should not be that shape and if you think otherwise you are against God and should die.

    {Sir Thomas Moore mode}

    Heretic! Burn him! For the good of his soul.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,437

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    I am not an uber-fan of Tolkien, though I enjoyed the main books when I was a kid. I quite enjoyed S1 of Rings of Power, but the problem is simple: if you spend that much on a show, it should be more that 'quite enjoyed'. Some of the writing was poor; the plot ponderous in a couple of places; and the special effects just okay. It was not terrible, just not what it could have been. A missed oppotunity.

    The same's true for many of these blockbuster shows and films: they spend a fortune, but get the basic plotting and characterisations wrong. Perhaps that's because they don't spend enough on those parts of the production, or alternatively, they have too many cooks spoiling the broth.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,885
    edited October 2
    FPT:

    Well worth a read, and another example of why I am glad I didn't become an MP.

    Shhh! My dad was a Tory MP: why I didn’t tell my friends

    Growing up, Adam Hart was proud that his father, Simon, had a job that other people were interested in. Then the internet abuse started. At university having the Conservative secretary of state for Wales as a parent was social death


    ...In June 2016, when I was revising for my GCSEs, the MP Jo Cox was murdered after leaving her constituency surgery. Like everyone else, I had read many news articles about murders, but this one, with its pictures of a fortysomething MP with two kids, felt odd.

    At home, the powers-that-be reviewed our “home security”. We failed on account of the public footpath that runs past our front door. Some men fitted a panic button in my parents’ wardrobe as well as a motion-triggered alarm outside the door. The first night the alarm was in operation a badger walked past and set it off, summoning Dyfed-Powys police to our house at 3am. As my sister and I were away, my parents saw the policemen at the door and assumed one of us had died.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/b5a924ff-7014-4a6f-9bf8-5585687d8454

    This is a really good article about personal experience. I'd disagree with a couple of his background assertions around when MPs became subject to the internet, and his stats on mobile phone usage are off, but that's peripheral.

    And the text quoted about "public footpath" and a security risk is interesting - that's basically the situation of every MP with a house in Inner London who have a public footpath next to the road in front of their £1m - £5m terraced house. Blair, Gove, Hunt, Johnson spring to mind for four in teh first second.

    The piece is well worth a read.

    Looking at the tendency-to-extremes in current politics, I'm not sure the situation will improve.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,986

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    History is full of this - you can't conduct foreign policy solely on the basis of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It has a place but in moderation. We propped up some odious regimes during the Cold War because the alternative, as we saw it, was to have that country run by Communists reporting to Moscow.

    The other basis on which geopolitical policy should never be conducted is "two wrongs make a right".

    We need to move away from the mistakes of the past and embrace the mistakes of the future (too cynical?). All I can see is another old adage which goes something like people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble. The notion capitalism and prosperity can temper conflicts has been tested with some success though it has to be said it's less effective in religious conflicts when fanaticism trumps reason.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the aim of making Lebanon or Yemen a better place for their inhabitants.
    While I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of encouraging capitalism and democracy and think that prosperity is the best avenue to peace, I must admit that China is testing to destruction the notion that people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble.
    The problem is bringing capitalism and its benefits into a system and culture which has never experienced it is that it opens up all sorts of cans of worms. The main one is corruption - let's be fair, even long-established capitalist democracies still suffer from the notion influence and decisions can be "bought" with the right bribe, gift or concert ticket.

    Russia and to an extent China are examples of capitalism leading to corruption and whether that's private corruption in the former or State-sponsored corruption in the latter doesn't make a lot of difference. The problem is spreading the benefits and the opportunities of a freer society down to the poorest gets stopped when the elite and officials take as much as they can for themselves.

    Even western societies are still doing with corruption in the political process - what chance do nascent capitalist sosiceties have? That doesn't mean it's not preferrable to the alternative, simply it's not a panacea and can create new problems very quickly.
  • stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Credit where credit is due, I've attacked the new Labour government a few times for its footing on the Middle East, but this from Starmer is 100% correct: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2krlgekpxo

    Calling on Iran to stop its attacks, he added: "Together with its proxies like Hezbollah, Iran has menaced the Middle East for far too long, chaos and destruction brought not just to Israel, but to the people they live amongst in Lebanon and beyond.

    "Make no mistake, Britain stands full square against such violence. We support Israel's reasonable demand for the security of its people."


    Iran has menaced the Middle East for far, far too long. Dubya Bush made a mistake prioritising Iraq for regime change in 2003 when Iran is the real puppet master.

    Its long past time for regime change in Iran. After sending a barrage of missiles against Israel last night I would 100% support all-out conflict with Iran to bring in regime change and the elimination of the Ayatollahs.

    That it would rid the world of not just the people behind such terrorists as Hamas and Hezbollah, but also one of the major arms dealers to Putin too is an added bonus.

    Morning.

    I don't disagree with a lot of your comment - the destabilising inpact of Hamas, Hezbollah and the pro-Iranian Houthis goes far beyond what they do or try to do to Israel. They have weakened or radicalised the incumbent Governments in their own areas and prevented said Governments from being able to adopt a more realistic relationship with Israel.

    Unfortunately, one of the more predictable impacts of the events of October 2023 (nearly a year, would you believe?) was the marginalising of moderate Arab opinion.

    However, if we have a plan to reduce Iranian influcence, we'd better have a good idea how to a) stop it returning and b) fill the vacuum removing said influence would create.

    Lebanon and Yemen need proper time and effort to return them to functioning states and that's a commitment I don't see. The greatest enemies to radicalism and populism are stability and prosperity and that's what's needed in those countries and elsewhere in the region.

    Even Gaza, and you may disagree, would benefit hugely from some proper capitalism, some proper investment, the kind which doesn't end up in the hands of terrorists but ends up helping the people. Can Abbas provide that guarantee for a post-Hamas Gaza or will we have to go elsewhere?
    Hezbolla was created by Israel destabilising the existing Lebanese state with its 1978 invasion. It only came into existence then.

    You might well argue that destabilising Lebanon to get rid of the PLO was necessary, but that is what led to the Islamisation of resistance to Israel from what had been a fairly secular nationalist movement.

    It's blowback in the same way that the USA created the Taliban.
    History is full of this - you can't conduct foreign policy solely on the basis of "my enemy's enemy is my friend". It has a place but in moderation. We propped up some odious regimes during the Cold War because the alternative, as we saw it, was to have that country run by Communists reporting to Moscow.

    The other basis on which geopolitical policy should never be conducted is "two wrongs make a right".

    We need to move away from the mistakes of the past and embrace the mistakes of the future (too cynical?). All I can see is another old adage which goes something like people who are too busy making money are usually too busy to make trouble. The notion capitalism and prosperity can temper conflicts has been tested with some success though it has to be said it's less effective in religious conflicts when fanaticism trumps reason.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the aim of making Lebanon or Yemen a better place for their inhabitants.
    When there are no "good guys" to choose from, my preference would be to choose "bad guys with a local agenda" than "bad guys with an international/global agenda".
    Also when there are no "good guys" to choose from, my preference is change over stability of a bad established guy that we know.

    I am a big believer in evolution and I completely despise the "better the devil we know" mentality.

    Its the same when voting. If the current government is definitely awful, and the opposition is probably going to be awful, then vote for the opposition.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,682

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
    As a general rule I don't watch films made (I use the term loosely) from books I've enjoyed. I've found I ended up irritated, disappointed, or both.
    Clint Eastwood was told, to his face, that he was a bad film maker. Because the film Firefox followed the book *too* closely.

    Some rather fun stuff came out about how the writers and execs on the Harry Potter films *hated* being forced to keep reasonably close to the books.
    Zac Snyder's Watchmen suffered a similar problem. He followed much of the original Alan Moore Comic book almost frame for frame (although he did make some major changes to the nature of the threat) but it was just too close and made it rather sterile.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,350

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    There are some things that may have a basis in truth that are still crass to say, particularly if it is known to stoke tensions. Nigel Farage is true, in the sense that sadly he is a real human being. He is very crass indeed.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited October 2
    On topic I watched it and it had a very civilized tone and the favourables of both candidates went up:



    I don't know whether that's good for Trump because it normalizes all his insanity or good for Harris because there are still moderate voters who are undecided about her ticket, whereas there's no way you can normalize a ticket with Trump on it.

    I'd be a little bit suspicious that JD's wealthy backers might be dumping some money on the markets to make him look better.
  • TimS said:

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
    Not enough people, which is the main reason why its on the rise again, as with other STIs.
  • TimS said:

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
    Not enough people, which is the main reason why its on the rise again, as with other STIs.
    HIV in the UK was very focused in certain groups, promiscuous homosexuals who didnt practice safe sex, those who either engaged with prostitutes or were prostitutes, and once again who didnt engage in safe sex, intravenous drug users who shared needles, and those infected with donated blood.

    Immigrant derived HIV was very different because it was been transmitted by sexually active heterosexual men, and we started getting clusters of heterosexual women getting HIV.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Tugendhat now making his speech to the Tory conference
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
    Not enough people, which is the main reason why its on the rise again, as with other STIs.
    HIV in the UK was very focused in certain groups, promiscuous homosexuals who didnt practice safe sex, those who either engaged with prostitutes or were prostitutes, and once again who didnt engage in safe sex, intravenous drug users who shared needles, and those infected with donated blood.

    Immigrant derived HIV was very different because it was been transmitted by sexually active heterosexual men, and we started getting clusters of heterosexual women getting HIV.
    I was absolutely terrified of it in the late 80s and early 90s, and viewed it as a death sentence. Which, in many respects, it was.

    Definitely led to slightly more caution when I was a teenager.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    On topic I watched it and it had a very civilized tone and the favourables of both candidates went up:



    I don't know whether that's good for Trump because it normalizes all his insanity or good for Harris because there are still moderate voters who are undecided about her ticket, whereas there's no way you can normalize a ticket with Trump on it.

    I'd be a little bit suspicious that JD's wealthy backers might be dumping some money on the markets to make him look better.

    I think the biggest impact of the debate was to make JD Vance frontrunner for the GOP nomination for 2028 at this point whether Trump wins or loses
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 726
    HYUFD said:

    Tugendhat now making his speech to the Tory conference

    I thought the pantomime call and response was a bit cringey.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
    As a general rule I don't watch films made (I use the term loosely) from books I've enjoyed. I've found I ended up irritated, disappointed, or both.
    Clint Eastwood was told, to his face, that he was a bad film maker. Because the film Firefox followed the book *too* closely.

    Some rather fun stuff came out about how the writers and execs on the Harry Potter films *hated* being forced to keep reasonably close to the books.
    Zac Snyder's Watchmen suffered a similar problem. He followed much of the original Alan Moore Comic book almost frame for frame (although he did make some major changes to the nature of the threat) but it was just too close and made it rather sterile.
    More that the studio didn't quite know what to do with a dark, anti-superhero story.

    Then came The Boys
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Tugendhat speaking well so far, articulate and clear. His odds should shorten
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    I hardly ever watch box sets and/or serials, but I watched "Star Wars: Andor" last month, and was pleasantly surprised how good it was!
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 726
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Tugendhat speaking well so far, articulate and clear. His odds should shorten
    He is but personally I find his tone grating. It's like a slightly weedy headmaster trying to lighten a school assembly with a few feeble jokes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    edited October 2
    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders: September 2024 Yougov

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    HYUFD said:

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284

    Popular with whom?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    I hardly ever watch box sets and/or serials, but I watched "Star Wars: Andor" last month, and was pleasantly surprised how good it was!
    They went back to the old fashioned thing of (1) create some characters, (2) think what those characters would do, when encountering various situations....

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,632

    On topic I watched it and it had a very civilized tone and the favourables of both candidates went up:



    I don't know whether that's good for Trump because it normalizes all his insanity or good for Harris because there are still moderate voters who are undecided about her ticket, whereas there's no way you can normalize a ticket with Trump on it.

    I'd be a little bit suspicious that JD's wealthy backers might be dumping some money on the markets to make him look better.

    I'd say Vance would be of greater concern for hesitating voters (since Trump is old and a vacancy could arise), therefore his good performance will count for more.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284

    Popular with whom?
    Yougov poll of UK voters
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954

    In their later form. But their birth out of the Mujahideen could not have come about without the support of the USA. Indeed there is a question of how much the Pakistani intelligence agencies were doing the USAs work for them.

    From what I've read on the topic the Americans and Saudis paid the bills, but Pakistan was working for its own ends.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,610
    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Tugendhat speaking well so far, articulate and clear. His odds should shorten
    Good morning

    He is but not inspiring nor motivational
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
    Not enough people, which is the main reason why its on the rise again, as with other STIs.
    HIV in the UK was very focused in certain groups, promiscuous homosexuals who didnt practice safe sex, those who either engaged with prostitutes or were prostitutes, and once again who didnt engage in safe sex, intravenous drug users who shared needles, and those infected with donated blood.

    Immigrant derived HIV was very different because it was been transmitted by sexually active heterosexual men, and we started getting clusters of heterosexual women getting HIV.
    I was absolutely terrified of it in the late 80s and early 90s, and viewed it as a death sentence. Which, in many respects, it was.

    Definitely led to slightly more caution when I was a teenager.
    "DON'T DIE OF IGNORANCE!"
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    'Where are they all flocking from?'

    You should let Kemi know, I'm sure the issue would fit in well with her leadership campaign so far.
    Do you remember the leadership debates in the General Election one year where Farage led with Immigrants coming here with HIV.

    What an idiot. It was crass then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32176826#:~:text=UKIP Leader Nigel Farage has defended comments made in the
    Apparently it was true. Why is it crass to talk about it when it wasn’t for, say, covid?
    Because one was a highly infectious novel airborne infection killing thousands of people per day in its source countries and threatening to overwhelm an under-prepared health system, and the other is a treatable chronic condition that’s been around for decades?

    It also seems a rather feeble dogwhistle (for dogwhistle it is, of course). Who’s actually scared of randomly contracting HIV from strangers these days?
    I don't know about you, but if I was still single, I'd have a strong preference for not contracting HIV.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,694
    edited October 2
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284

    Popular with whom?
    Yougov poll of UK voters
    Can't believe that almost 40% of UK voters think highly of Farage! 40% might have heard of him, of course.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,316
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    This is a known, flawed process with big budget movies and drama. Because they spend so much money they panic about the script. They hire five great writers. Then they panic again and they hire a great script doctor. Then they get an old veteran to do a rewrite again. Then they panic again and get two new writers in and then it gets another redraft and then of course every producer must have his say - and the result is a terrible mess of a script with no coherent story or character lines. But at least no one individual can be blamed any more as so many were involved

    One might see parallels elsewhere…
    The best work to emerge from this process was The Loved One which Waugh wrote to banish the tedium of California, having been lured there by a Hollywood studio as a script writer, only to be sidelined for reasons which in retrospect should have been obvious before the start.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,981
    viewcode said:

    As somebody more used to the Star Wars/Star Trek[1]/Dr Who fan arguments, I have to say this LOTR argument on here is far more refined. Nobody here has threatened anybody yet. Well done.

    [1] the pylons on the USS Enterprise in the Discovery era should not be that shape and if you think otherwise you are against God and should die.

    Yeah, imagine how a debate like this would play out on Twitter or Gallifreybase ?

    Imagine Ian Levine with a firm view one way or the other involving himself in the debate :cold_sweat:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    NEW POLL ~ Popularity of party leaders:

    🟪 Nigel Farage: 39%
    🟦 Rishi Sunak: 28%
    🟥 Keir Starmer: 26%
    ⬜️ Jeremy Corbyn: 25%
    🟧 Ed Davey: 19%
    https://x.com/LeftieStats/status/1841151478104289284

    Popular with whom?
    Yougov poll of UK voters
    Can't believe that almost 40% of UK voters think highly of Farage! 40% might have heard of him, of course.
    43% voted for Boris
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,112

    MaxPB said:

    Morning folks

    amusing to see people slagging off Rings of Power on the previous thread on the basis that it is 'woke'.

    This is of course utter bollocks. There is nothing woke about it at all. Moreover most of those criticising its accuracy clearly don't know their Tolkein beyond the Peter Jackson films - which contained huge numbers of inaccuracies themselves.

    Rings of Power has just been renewed for its third season and is going from strength to strength. For most Tolkein fans who move beyond just Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit it is a great series filling in a lot of detail on Tolkein's lore. The 'go woke, go broke' crowd are just bitter because they weren't able to bring it down with their whining about non-white characters.

    It hasn't been "renewed" Amazon are contractually obliged to deliver 50 hours of content or they face a huge break fee with the Tolkein estate. It also isn't going from strength to strength, it opened with around half of the viewers that the first season opener did and it has the same downwards viewing trend the first season did which indicates that by the end only around 20% of people who started the first episode of the first season will make it to the end of the second season. It's a disaster but Amazon have no choice but to continue, if they could cancel it and not end up paying the Tolkein estate hundreds of millions in break up fees I'm certain they would do so.

    I think the only saving grace for it is that the next season isn't already written like season 2 was before filming so they can start to take fan feedback into account and sack the terrible writers and bring in actual lore experts that won't give us stupid concepts like Orc wives and babies or Galadriel thirsting after Sauron even after she fucking knows it's Sauron. I think there's been an admission within Amazon studios that they need to change direction on the story and lore so I expect season 3 will be much closer to what people expected from the beginning.
    I actually agree with most of this (I think the writing is terrible and on a par with the final season of Game of Thrones - Bret Devereaux has a good write-up of all the issues here and elsewhere), but the Orc babies thing isn't a stupid concept. It's how Orcs reproduced canonically (the "growing from the mud" thing was a Peter Jackson invention). It's how you could have "Bolg, son of Azog" in The Hobbit. Orcs reproduce "after the manner of Elves and Men," and Tolkien stated in a letter that "there must have been orc-women"
    The terrible writing simply matches that for Game Of Thrones, Foundation and the Star Wars films.

    They keep riding billion dollar properties into the ground. Because reasons. And having some good bits in there, somewhere, isn't an excuse.
    Modern writing to me suffers a bit too much from indulging in audience fantasies/wants rather than focussing on telling a story.

    A lot of franchises have gone the way of reading like bad fan fiction and I think that’s a product of the lack of restraint. Sometimes you don’t need to write to cater for the “wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “let’s come up with 100 theories for why this happened” crowd. Let people fill in the gaps themselves - that makes the stories more engaging and enjoyable.
    As a general rule I don't watch films made (I use the term loosely) from books I've enjoyed. I've found I ended up irritated, disappointed, or both.
    Clint Eastwood was told, to his face, that he was a bad film maker. Because the film Firefox followed the book *too* closely.

    Some rather fun stuff came out about how the writers and execs on the Harry Potter films *hated* being forced to keep reasonably close to the books.
    Zac Snyder's Watchmen suffered a similar problem. He followed much of the original Alan Moore Comic book almost frame for frame (although he did make some major changes to the nature of the threat) but it was just too close and made it rather sterile.
    I heard a joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Life seems harsh, and cruel. Says he feels all alone in threatening world. Doctor says: "Treatment is simple. The great clown - Pagliacci - is in town. Go see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. "But doctor..." he says "I am Pagliacci." Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Tugendhat speaking well so far, articulate and clear. His odds should shorten
    Good morning

    He is but not inspiring nor motivational
    I thought he was inspiring too by the end
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,033

    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Tyndall, wasn't Galadriel (along with Elrond) one who immediately saw through Sauron's disguise?

    Yes and although they have played a bit with the time scales on that, it is also what is portrayed in RoP. This is all minor stuff. I do laugh when people ignore the massive changes made by Peter Jackson (whose films I really like) to Tolkein lore but get upset about minor changes and gap filling in Rings of Power.
    IMHO, the two worst parts of the LOTR films were the butchery of Denethor’s character, and turning the Dead into the green soap bubbles of death. The first two films were great, I thought. The third, more mixed.
    Changing Arwen for Glorfindel and changing the whole end of the book were rather grating at the time.
    Arwen taking over Glorfindel's role wasn't especially bad - he has that one scene, really. Given who she is the daughter of, not terribly surprising if she has power in the Unseen.
    It removed one of the most powerful elf figures in the whole Canon.

    But my real point is the films made massive changes to lore, far more so than RoP. There are dozens of examples. And most of the 'lore' criticisms directed at RoP are clearly based on the crtics not actually knowing the lore in the first place.
    As someone who has read pretty much all of the source material. Including The Annotated Shopping Lists of JRR Tolkien, by Christopher Tolkien*, 2,564 pages.

    I can agree. A bit.

    But the soap opera plotting and setting just feels like the Warcraft film (had to sit through part of that one, when some friends of my youngest daughter were having a sleep over. The horror. The horror.)

    *Which includes a forward by Christopher Tolkien decrying the crass commercialisation of his father's work.
    ^^^ Pretty much this.

    I fully agree that the films made huge changes to lore. Detracting massively from my enjoyment in them (and had stupid choices as well, such as making Gimli a buffoon and Treebeard an idiot).

    I also agree that the "Woke!!!" argument against RoP is a pile of crap. Tolkien would have had no problems with black Elves (the first version of Maeglin, the villain of the Gondolin story, was jet black, until Tolkien decided to make him unnaturally pale instead). Elves were "biologically the same race as Men," in Tolkien's own words. I've seen "scientific" arguments against black Dwarves as well, which seem to omit the fact that in the legends, the Sun at this time was a big glowing fruit in a transparent vessel in the skies, piloted by an angelic being. Its ultraviolet emissions don't seem to be noted anywhere (otherwise the Elves still in Valinor would have to always wear Factor 1,000,000 sunscreen).

    The lore issues - as Tolkien chopped and changed all the time (the Blue Wizards were Alatar and Pallando in the Third Age. No, they were Morinehtar and Romestamo in the Second Age. Galadriel joined the Rebellion and crossed the Ice with the Noldor and met Celeborn, a Sinda of Doriath, in Middle-Earth. She also fled Valinor in her own boat separately from the Rebellion, with her lover, Teleporno of the Teleri who (quite sensibly, IMO, changed his name to "Celeborn" in Middle-Earth). Etc. Etc.) aren't that big for me.

    No, it's the actual writing with which I have a problem and throw me out of the story, and Devereaux summarise big chunks of that very well.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    viewcode said:

    As somebody more used to the Star Wars/Star Trek[1]/Dr Who fan arguments, I have to say this LOTR argument on here is far more refined. Nobody here has threatened anybody yet. Well done.

    [1] the pylons on the USS Enterprise in the Discovery era should not be that shape and if you think otherwise you are against God and should die.

    Why do they even need pylons when they have direct energy transmission ... ?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,610
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    The leadership election is going more and more Cleverly’s way.

    It is as long a Jenrick chooses him rather than Tugendhat as the repository of 'surplus' vote to knock Badenoch out.
    I think Jenrick would prefer to face Tugendhat than Cleverly as Cleverly could run him close.

    So it is not impossible he could 'lend' Tugendhat some votes in the next round. Personally though I think Tugendhat is a better bet than Cleverly so that could be a risk for Jenrick.
    Cleverly has got Shapps working for him, who will be up to all sorts I don't doubt. My best guess is a few Tugendhat's will vote for Cleverly. Tudendhat is knocked out.

    From there it is very difficult to predict but there is no doubt that a campaign, both inside and outside of the party, is being run against Badenoch so I'm guessing manipulation if necessary will ensure a Cleverly Jenrick members' vote.
    Tugendhat speaking well so far, articulate and clear. His odds should shorten
    Good morning

    He is but not inspiring nor motivational
    I thought he was inspiring too by the end
    He seems honest and decent enough but not inspiring for me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Cleverly now on
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,400

    AnthonyT said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi on Today at the moment. She’s already getting cross with Mishal for the impertinence of asking her for policy proposals.

    She's kind of right though. Now is not the time for detailed policy, which will only invite the question of why they did not try it when they ran the country less than six months ago. Now is the time for philosophy and broad direction of travel, for strategy and tactics, for aspiration and vision.

    But not getting cross is a key political skill that Kemi needs to work on. It is useful in real life too, especially for night time posting on PB.
    Is she ?
    If you raise a political topic, as a politician, you ought at least to have a rough idea of how you might go about addressing it.

    Of course no one expects detailed policy from her, but the odd clue might be good.
    Until a few months ago, she was a cabinet minister, so she's had more opportunity than most opposition MPs - indeed has been required to have considered views on all manner of policy.
    The problem is indeed the contradiction. She’s repeatedly pointed out specific problems as examples of what needs fixing, then refused to say whether she would fix them.

    This morning it was all about small businesses having too much regulation and red tape. Then and got shirty when asked what regulations she would tackle.
    Any politician talking about excessive regulation should be asked if they've read the long detailed section in the Grenfell Tower Fire Report on the consequences of "deregulation" for building fire safety or the section dealing with the consequences of fire safety assessors (often operating as small, very small in some cases, businesses) not having to comply with any minimum regulations on training, qualifications or competence.

    Then they can turn to the evidence of Lord Pickles who, in a vain attempt to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of the policies he loudly espoused, tried to claim that he didn't really mean them and civil servants should have ignored what he said because campaigning was not the same as governing.

    Badenoch like so many politicians seems incapable of thinking anything through properly.
    The question is - what does the actual regulation do?

    A friend, on the management committee for his block, discovered that it was structurally deficient, in addition to the cladding fun. The building company had *rooms* of paperwork on the project. They'd managed to not include any info on testing the concrete, though. Or the flammability of the cladding. Funny that.

    The cladding testing reminds me of the testing of British heavy shells for the Royal Navy pre WWI - the tests were elaborate bullshit.

    Process and regulation is often used to *hide* defects and problems.
    That hammering sound you can hear behind me on the pb webcam is builders bringing us up to scratch after a fire assessment. New fire doors, alarms, and even illuminated signs to guide us down the stairs and out the front door as if it were physically possible to take any other route: no corridors off t-junctions here.

    In recent times I was connected with a leading ecommerce website that underwent regular performance tests. The problem was not that the tests were unrealistic but that the pass/fail thresholds were. 10 seconds' delay might be just about acceptable during payment, but not 30 seconds, and not 10 seconds for product search.
This discussion has been closed.