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Ten years on – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited September 29 in General
imageTen years on – politicalbetting.com

Today is the tenth anniversary of the Scottish independence referendum and if we look at how things are now compared to September 2014 not much has changed. Labour’s red rose is the dominant flower of Scotland, the SNP have single digit number of MPs, whilst support for independence generally hovering around the mid to high 40s (when don’t knows are removed) but all of that belies what has happened in those ten years.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,409

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Very good, but David Cameron did come up - he made a short speech to an invited audience (afaicr they were bank employees?) and then left. Which was fine, and as you rightly suggest, to do more had the potential to damage the cause.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Quite a few typos and errors, however

    Even tho I agree with your central thesis. Sindy isn’t happening for 20 years and by the time those 20 years roll around the world will have changed so much the question will be bizarrely irrelevant and trivial

    The same applies to Brexit FWIW
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited September 18
    Leon said:

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Quite a few typos and errors, however

    Even tho I agree with your central thesis. Sindy isn’t happening for 20 years and by the time those 20 years roll around the world will have changed so much the question will be bizarrely irrelevant and trivial

    The same applies to Brexit FWIW
    Yes: you might want to re-read the last paragraph at bit more carefully.

    ETA And by “you” I mean TSE.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 692

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    I'm baffled that you've denied yourself the pleasure of cackling inwardly that no-one noticed your genius. Then you could have swooped in and smugly pointed it out and hour or so later.
  • Stereodog said:

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    I'm baffled that you've denied yourself the pleasure of cackling inwardly that no-one noticed your genius. Then you could have swooped in and smugly pointed it out and hour or so later.
    I was worried it was too subtle for most PBers that they would miss it.
  • I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Very good, but David Cameron did come up - he made a short speech to an invited audience (afaicr they were bank employees?) and then left. Which was fine, and as you rightly suggest, to do more had the potential to damage the cause.
    That was a one off, I was thinking about repeated visits/interventions.

    Boris Johnson would have insisted on a televised debate with Alex Salmond.
  • DayTripperDayTripper Posts: 137
    edited September 18
    What is the current independence polling anyway? Mid to high 40s covers a lot of sins.
  • Leon said:

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Quite a few typos and errors, however

    Even tho I agree with your central thesis. Sindy isn’t happening for 20 years and by the time those 20 years roll around the world will have changed so much the question will be bizarrely irrelevant and trivial

    The same applies to Brexit FWIW
    Yes: you might want to re-read the last paragraph at bit more carefully.

    ETA And by “you” I mean TSE.
    Much better.

    Sorry, I might have gone into teacher mode there…
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Very good, but David Cameron did come up - he made a short speech to an invited audience (afaicr they were bank employees?) and then left. Which was fine, and as you rightly suggest, to do more had the potential to damage the cause.
    That was a one off, I was thinking about repeated visits/interventions.

    Boris Johnson would have insisted on a televised debate with Alex Salmond.
    Did you enjoy the Sir Graham Brady vignettes of life with Cameron ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,228
    Much improved. Ta
  • I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Very good, but David Cameron did come up - he made a short speech to an invited audience (afaicr they were bank employees?) and then left. Which was fine, and as you rightly suggest, to do more had the potential to damage the cause.
    That was a one off, I was thinking about repeated visits/interventions.

    Boris Johnson would have insisted on a televised debate with Alex Salmond.
    Did you enjoy the Sir Graham Brady vignettes of life with Cameron ?
    Sir Graham showed once again why he has terrible judgment, his lockdown observations read like the rantings of a Karen on Facebook.
  • What is the current independence polling anyway? Mid to high 40s covers a lot of sins.

    YouGov is clearly the Gold Standard.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    FPT…

    A deep dive into the UFO conspiracy theorists/grifters who created all the fuss in recent years and convinced some gullible people, including US politicians, that there was something going on: https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/p82r0FsKqf

    Or a shorter article: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/07/how-believers-paranormal-birthed-pentagons-new-hunt-ufos.html
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    If I were the SNP I would now be teeing up think tanks of ferociously clever economists to spend three years writing papers on the economic options for independence to buy high ground in a debate which pretty much degenerated into Will London cabbies still take Scotch tenners last time.

    Dunno if Scotland has any sort of history of the study of political economics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    FPT…

    A deep dive into the UFO conspiracy theorists/grifters who created all the fuss in recent years and convinced some gullible people, including US politicians, that there was something going on: https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/p82r0FsKqf

    Or a shorter article: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/07/how-believers-paranormal-birthed-pentagons-new-hunt-ufos.html

    You mean Leon is gullible ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    edited September 18

    What is the current independence polling anyway? Mid to high 40s covers a lot of sins.

    I think this Opinium poll is the latest.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24587438.poll-50-scots-want-second-independence-referendum/

    There's a majority for a further Sindyref, and a 2% lead for No over Yes, so as close as Pennsylvania etc.

    There must be a lot of Indy supporters who didn't vote SNP in the Westminster Election.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    Bollocks. It is not sleaze, as we have been told here repeatedly, when it is the side someone supports doing it. Only the side they oppose.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    What is the current independence polling anyway? Mid to high 40s covers a lot of sins.

    No is consistently 48% or so. Yes goes up to about 45% depending on Don't Knows who seem to tend more to Yes. There's a sharp divide at about 35. Those younger than that age are strongly pro independence. It's possible there will be a majority for independence in say twenty years time. That cohort doesn't seem likely to change it's mind.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    Wow. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Lot of work must have gone into this.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,707
    mercator said:

    If I were the SNP I would now be teeing up think tanks of ferociously clever economists to spend three years writing papers on the economic options for independence to buy high ground in a debate which pretty much degenerated into Will London cabbies still take Scotch tenners last time.

    Dunno if Scotland has any sort of history of the study of political economics.

    Last time the high ground was occupied by Glasgow's Adam Smith Professor of Political Economy (my old student Ronald MacDonald) - on the other side, natch

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    Wow. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Lot of work must have gone into this.
    A couple of decades in the making, I think.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,032
    Foxy said:

    What is the current independence polling anyway? Mid to high 40s covers a lot of sins.

    I think this Opinium poll is the latest.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24587438.poll-50-scots-want-second-independence-referendum/

    There's a majority for a further Sindyref, and a 2% lead for No over Yes, so as close as Pennsylvania etc.

    There must be a lot of Indy supporters who didn't vote SNP in the Westminster Election.
    Either that, or people virtue-signal in opinion polls and change their minds when it actually matters.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    mercator said:

    If I were the SNP I would now be teeing up think tanks of ferociously clever economists to spend three years writing papers on the economic options for independence to buy high ground in a debate which pretty much degenerated into Will London cabbies still take Scotch tenners last time.

    Dunno if Scotland has any sort of history of the study of political economics.

    I would guess that it's eminently doable, but would likely require some years of significant fiscal restraint post independence.

    But that would also need an independence party which didn't pretend it would be easy.
  • Taz said:

    Bollocks. It is not sleaze, as we have been told here repeatedly, when it is the side someone supports doing it. Only the side they oppose.
    It is not sleaze but is perhaps symptomatic of Keir Starmer's background as a barrister and DPP rather than his later, second career as politician. The law says he can accept gifts provided he declares them so lawyer Keir accepts gifts and declares them (often on time) but politics is about optics as well as rules.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



  • I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    “If you'd seen these roads before they were made
    You'd lift up your hands and bless General Wade”
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    FPT…

    A deep dive into the UFO conspiracy theorists/grifters who created all the fuss in recent years and convinced some gullible people, including US politicians, that there was something going on: https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/p82r0FsKqf

    Or a shorter article: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/07/how-believers-paranormal-birthed-pentagons-new-hunt-ufos.html

    I don't think that was worth carrying over. Skinwalker was always a joke, this is like saying Godzilla never existed so that clears up the dinosaur hoax.

    'A group known as "the invisible college" have been pushing for UFO disclosure for decades." (Your Reddit link). What type of theory is being advanced by this sentence? Have you ever in your life seen anything so beautifully circular?

    If you want to attack a theory and you find yourself calling its proponents grifters in your first line you are not the best person to attack it, not even if they are in fact grifters. On many contested issues Yeats is spot on:

    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Have a read of the pentagon report of March this year. It manages to conclude that there's no evidence of UFOs without calling anyone a grifter.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    geoffw said:

    mercator said:

    If I were the SNP I would now be teeing up think tanks of ferociously clever economists to spend three years writing papers on the economic options for independence to buy high ground in a debate which pretty much degenerated into Will London cabbies still take Scotch tenners last time.

    Dunno if Scotland has any sort of history of the study of political economics.

    Last time the high ground was occupied by Glasgow's Adam Smith Professor of Political Economy (my old student Ronald MacDonald) - on the other side, natch

    My second paragraph was of course pure trolling. The name of the professorship gives the game away, though.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,707
    mercator said:

    geoffw said:

    mercator said:

    If I were the SNP I would now be teeing up think tanks of ferociously clever economists to spend three years writing papers on the economic options for independence to buy high ground in a debate which pretty much degenerated into Will London cabbies still take Scotch tenners last time.

    Dunno if Scotland has any sort of history of the study of political economics.

    Last time the high ground was occupied by Glasgow's Adam Smith Professor of Political Economy (my old student Ronald MacDonald) - on the other side, natch

    My second paragraph was of course pure trolling. The name of the professorship gives the game away, though.
    You don't say!

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited September 18
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    Wow. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Lot of work must have gone into this.
    A couple of decades in the making, I think.
    Or five centuries. Or even a millennium and a half, depending on how you look at it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,032
    A friend's father, honest and apolitical as far as I could tell, once told me a story about dealing with Starmer. I'll call my friend's father Ted. Ted was a Para in Northern Ireland in 1969 during Bloody Sunday, though he wasn't present at the events. Anyway, when Starmer was in Northern Ireland twenty years ago, he tried to get Ted to alter his testimony to discredit his fellow Paras and thereby facilitate shafting the soldiers and pleasing Sinn Fein. Ted refused and Starmer indirectly threatened him with various dire consequences, none of which happened.

    One can believe Ted or not as one chooses, though as I say he seemed perfectly straightforward to me and his opinion of politicians seemed to be that they are all liars. But I found his opinion of Starmer of a piece with others I've heard from people who have dealt with him professionally and his behaviour during the aftermath of the referendum. And this is a man who now poses with a Union Jack behind him at every opportunity. I can only guess Ted's feelings every time he sees that.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    Ten years ago I was arriving on Barra. Would have been quite the party if Scotland had followed Barra and voted for independence.

    Instead, just a week of curmudgeonly Hebrideans.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    Wow. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Lot of work must have gone into this.
    A couple of decades in the making, I think.
    Good to see they are still using the word 'Anglo-Saxon'.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    Mostly agree. All politics is relative. It is perfectly feasible to think that either or both (or of course neither - not many votes for that) of the 2 great USA parties are in a seriously wrong direction, that one or other of them has to provide the next POTUS and that therefore whatever the flaws you vote for whichever isn't the bad or worse one.

    It has parallels with voting Brexit or Scottish independence. You have no idea what the outcome will really be like, but you sufficiently dislike the status quo to vote for the other option.

    The final pro-Trump point is that the enemies of the USA have no idea what he will do, which is always a risk. Just like the USA's allies don't either.

    What is exaggerated is the thought that Darkage will be deluged by PBers saying that the arguments are all rubbish.
  • mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
  • A hundred grand in freebies.
    Starmer doesn't appear to have broken any rules and it looks like he is meticulous in recording it all, but it looks fecking awful.
    He wants to go and watch the footie, get comped because he's Swifty, dress nicely and have designer specs, so he'll take a hundred grand in freebies from whoever wants to curry his favour.
    It stinks, and he needs to have a word with himself.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    This is the most inspiring news all week. Thanks. BTW one of the few merits of not being young is that in the far off days when I read English at university it was compulsory to learn Anglo Saxon. I didn't care for it much at the time but have never regretted it.

    The resurgence of interest in pre-conquest British Isles is extraordinary and wonderful. The most ignored field in Britain (not Ireland of course) is first millennium Irish studies, where the sources are early and extensive - and totally bonkers - and of course untouched by the Roman empire. Every university should have an Irish studies department, and every English degree should require Anglo Saxon.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,543

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Why does that mean he has to? Is it the law?

    If so, as a matter of interest, what other sorts of cases does the DPP have to announce at a press conference?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    algarkirk said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    Mostly agree. All politics is relative. It is perfectly feasible to think that either or both (or of course neither - not many votes for that) of the 2 great USA parties are in a seriously wrong direction, that one or other of them has to provide the next POTUS and that therefore whatever the flaws you vote for whichever isn't the bad or worse one.

    It has parallels with voting Brexit or Scottish independence. You have no idea what the outcome will really be like, but you sufficiently dislike the status quo to vote for the other option.

    The final pro-Trump point is that the enemies of the USA have no idea what he will do, which is always a risk. Just like the USA's allies don't either.

    What is exaggerated is the thought that Darkage will be deluged by PBers saying that the arguments are all rubbish.
    Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent, is my opinion of most UK commentary (especially my own) on US politics. Common history and language should not mislead us into thinking it's a big UK with states sort of corresponding to our counties. it's a profoundly foreign land (or rather 50 of them) where guns kill more people than car crashes and the commonest cause of bankruptcy is medical bills. I don't really know much more about how it ticks than I know how China does.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,100

    I put the words 'Marshal' and 'Wade' in the same sentence on a thread about Scotland/seditious Scots.

    My genius is unparalleled

    Thanks for the header, @TSE , but you sound like Darth Putin.
  • algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    This is the most inspiring news all week. Thanks. BTW one of the few merits of not being young is that in the far off days when I read English at university it was compulsory to learn Anglo Saxon. I didn't care for it much at the time but have never regretted it.

    The resurgence of interest in pre-conquest British Isles is extraordinary and wonderful. The most ignored field in Britain (not Ireland of course) is first millennium Irish studies, where the sources are early and extensive - and totally bonkers - and of course untouched by the Roman empire. Every university should have an Irish studies department, and every English degree should require Anglo Saxon.
    How is Anglo-Saxon related to Old English?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Under what statute, rule of common law, constitutional convention or international treaty?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687

    A hundred grand in freebies.
    Starmer doesn't appear to have broken any rules and it looks like he is meticulous in recording it all, but it looks fecking awful.
    He wants to go and watch the footie, get comped because he's Swifty, dress nicely and have designer specs, so he'll take a hundred grand in freebies from whoever wants to curry his favour.
    It stinks, and he needs to have a word with himself.
    My flabber has been ghasted by all this. What is he thinking?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,714
    It's not a good look, for sure. Just a massive unforced error on the face of it.

    Skimming down the article, there's one thing that tickled me - Truss apparently, pre-PM, accepted "a Norwich City football match attendance worth £2,000". Unless that's a typo and should be attendances, I'm left bemused by the idea that a single Norwich City attendance could be worth £2000. In Starmer's list, for comparison, there's: "The most pricey football match was four box tickets to watch Arsenal v Watford provided by the Premier League worth £2,160".
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    This is the most inspiring news all week. Thanks. BTW one of the few merits of not being young is that in the far off days when I read English at university it was compulsory to learn Anglo Saxon. I didn't care for it much at the time but have never regretted it.

    The resurgence of interest in pre-conquest British Isles is extraordinary and wonderful. The most ignored field in Britain (not Ireland of course) is first millennium Irish studies, where the sources are early and extensive - and totally bonkers - and of course untouched by the Roman empire. Every university should have an Irish studies department, and every English degree should require Anglo Saxon.
    How is Anglo-Saxon related to Old English?
    Same thing. Different name.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,759
    I agree, until there is a honest debate about the economic costs of independence and the mechanics of how issues like the currency would be resolved then Yes won't win, and nor would it deserve to. I remain very mildly pro-independence as I think it would deliver long term benefits to the Scottish people, but there are big up-front costs that the pro-independence camp need to be honest about.
    Equally, Unionists might want to think about doing more to demonstrate the benefits of the Union to Scotland. I can think of two practical steps: make it easier to trade with the EU, and build HS2 to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
  • mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Why does that mean he has to? Is it the law?

    If so, as a matter of interest, what other sorts of cases does the DPP have to announce at a press conference?
    People forget it was nearly two years from the start of the police investigation to the charging decision.

    There was plenty of comment on here and elsewhere that it was an establishment cover up (not realising there were other issues, Constance Briscoe and Isabel Oakeshott at first refusing to reveal her sources).

    Had it been left to a court listing it would have embolden those siren voices.
  • mercator said:

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Under what statute, rule of common law, constitutional convention or international treaty?
    CPS charging decision handbook.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.

    No, I think it's rubbish because you're simultaneously assuming that the next generation isn't producing anyone competent (without evidence), and that smashing the system will improve things - an idea which has been tested to destruction numerous times.

    "People like Elon Musk" have no idea of how to run a government.
    He's good at running engineering companies - but as he's demonstrated at Twitter (which has lost something like three quarters of its revenue), step outside his area of competence, and he's no better than the average idiot in the street.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    mercator said:

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Under what statute, rule of common law, constitutional convention or international treaty?
    CPS charging decision handbook.
    Link?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,100
    edited September 18
    Nigelb said:

    This is an amazing resource.

    The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE) is a database which aims to provide structured information relating to all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century. It is based on a systematic examination of the available written sources for the period, including chronicles, saints’ Lives, charters, libri vitae, inscriptions, Domesday Book and coins; and is intended to serve as a research tool suitable for a wide range of users with an interest in this period.

    PASE was created by the Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, and the Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic, at the University of Cambridge...

    https://pase.ac.uk/

    Thank-you for this. It looks very valuable - kind of in the same category as the archive of legal actions going back hundreds of year, and tells us things about our society and ourselves that we had forgotten or never known.

    I learnt a new word. I like "prosopography" - it sounds like a medical condition that might need a proctologist *, but is defined as:

    prosopography: a description of a person's social and family connections, career, etc., or a collection of such descriptions.

    * Imagine your Doctor. "I'm sorry, Mr Eagles - your scan has revealed a prosopography in your nether regions."
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180
    mercator said:

    mercator said:

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Under what statute, rule of common law, constitutional convention or international treaty?
    CPS charging decision handbook.
    Link?
    Is it this - https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/directors-guidance-charging-sixth-edition-december-2020-incorporating-national-file
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,484

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    On topic, thankfully the right decision. Well done Scotland.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,765
    On thread: I'm no Scot, but I'm never convinced Gordon Brown's interventions are terribly long term helpful for the purpose of unionism. They seem to amount to a) I'm brilliant, everyone else is an arse, and b) Scotland, if you vote unionist, we'll give you more money and power. It's not really advancing a long-term philosophy for a union or for prosperity within that union, and nor is it criticising the case for independence. Brown - and indeed Darling - bear responsibility for the architecture of devolution, so have to maintain a facade that it's all working brilliantly, which doesn't make for an effective critique of independence.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,484
    boulay said:

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
    I’m literally, coincidentally, sitting a few feet away from someone who has just started a call with a business contact about them moving here. This is happening in loads of jurisdictions.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.

    No, I think it's rubbish because you're simultaneously assuming that the next generation isn't producing anyone competent (without evidence), and that smashing the system will improve things - an idea which has been tested to destruction numerous times.

    "People like Elon Musk" have no idea of how to run a government.
    He's good at running engineering companies - but as he's demonstrated at Twitter (which has lost something like three quarters of its revenue), step outside his area of competence, and he's no better than the average idiot in the street.
    On questions such as these, (eg loss of expertise) assembling really hard evidence about what is the case is hard to impossible. assembling evidence about what people think is fairly easy. The two need to be carefully distinguished. What may be rubbish about facts (usually contested) may well not be rubbish about what is swilling around in the heads of voters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,392
    edited September 18

    A hundred grand in freebies.
    Starmer doesn't appear to have broken any rules and it looks like he is meticulous in recording it all, but it looks fecking awful.
    He wants to go and watch the footie, get comped because he's Swifty, dress nicely and have designer specs, so he'll take a hundred grand in freebies from whoever wants to curry his favour.
    It stinks, and he needs to have a word with himself.
    Much like when he got tanked up on curry night. Its all in the rules.

    Question is does he have to declare these "gifts" for tax purposes ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,543

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Why does that mean he has to? Is it the law?

    If so, as a matter of interest, what other sorts of cases does the DPP have to announce at a press conference?
    People forget it was nearly two years from the start of the police investigation to the charging decision.

    There was plenty of comment on here and elsewhere that it was an establishment cover up (not realising there were other issues, Constance Briscoe and Isabel Oakeshott at first refusing to reveal her sources).

    Had it been left to a court listing it would have embolden those siren voices.
    A big problem with that is that SKS would have known he wanted to become an MP - it was not a decision he would have suddenly made in 2015. What better way of increasing your prominence with your side than announcing one of the 'enemy' is being prosecuted?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    .

    A hundred grand in freebies.
    Starmer doesn't appear to have broken any rules and it looks like he is meticulous in recording it all, but it looks fecking awful.
    He wants to go and watch the footie, get comped because he's Swifty, dress nicely and have designer specs, so he'll take a hundred grand in freebies from whoever wants to curry his favour.
    It stinks, and he needs to have a word with himself.
    It's not a good look at all.
    The accommodation might be related to political activity - campaigning needs rooms - but the rest of it is straightforward freebies.

    For a government which was elected having campaigned on probity, it's not a good look at all.
    Still, now he can carry on going to the football, under the radar:
    ...ministers are not forced to declare hospitality on their MP register that they receive in their official roles..
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,539
    boulay said:

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
    Labour's hatred of wealth is going to come up against its love of the NHS.

    Wealthy people pay for the NHS.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    mercator said:

    FPT…

    A deep dive into the UFO conspiracy theorists/grifters who created all the fuss in recent years and convinced some gullible people, including US politicians, that there was something going on: https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/s/p82r0FsKqf

    Or a shorter article: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/03/07/how-believers-paranormal-birthed-pentagons-new-hunt-ufos.html

    I don't think that was worth carrying over. Skinwalker was always a joke, this is like saying Godzilla never existed so that clears up the dinosaur hoax.

    'A group known as "the invisible college" have been pushing for UFO disclosure for decades." (Your Reddit link). What type of theory is being advanced by this sentence? Have you ever in your life seen anything so beautifully circular?

    If you want to attack a theory and you find yourself calling its proponents grifters in your first line you are not the best person to attack it, not even if they are in fact grifters. On many contested issues Yeats is spot on:

    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Have a read of the pentagon report of March this year. It manages to conclude that there's no evidence of UFOs without calling anyone a grifter.
    If you’re going to spend time reading anything on this topic, skip the Reddit threads, Mick West posts, books or AARO reports. And instead read the initial draft of the 2023 ‘UAP Disclosure Act’, an adjunct to the National Defense Authorisation Act. It was passed by the senate but half gutted by Mike Turner in the committee stage in the House. The unpassed elements are likely to return to the floor this autumn.

    The bipartisan bill was drafted by the office of the Democrat Senate Majority Leadership, and passionately argued for on the floor by Schumer. It’s unthinkable its content was not cleared first by the Democrat White House and deemed a legislative priority at a moment of almost total congressional gridlock.

    And then ask yourself why the US government felt it important to define in law the meaning of “technology of non human intelligence origin”, to attempt to assert eminent domain over such technology held by the private sector, and to seek a presidential appointed review board (to include amongst others an economist and psychologist) to recommend public data releases thereof.

    The answer is that there have been a reported forty plus highly cleared people testifying under oath to Congress the veracity of such claims.

    Whichever way you cut it, it’s by far the most intriguing political story in decades. Because either true or false, it implies a grotesque undermining of US democracy, easily surpassing Iran Contra or Watergate. It’s amazed me that so many on here still don’t seem to recognise that.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    edited September 18

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    The majority of Trump voters are Republican voters. Most of the 46.1% who voted Trump in 2016 are going to be made up of the 47.2% who voted Romney in 2012. So in the first place for most of them the reasons they vote Trump are going to be similar to the reasons they vote(d) for other Republicans, aren't they?

    Clearly he has managed to put some Republican voters off, while on the other hand attracting some other voters who wouldn't otherwise vote Republican. But while these naturally attract attention and analysis, and are important because they are by definition swing voters, they must be quite a small minority of those voting. Edit: or at least small-ish - has anyone got any figures on this?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,543

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    FF43 said:

    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


    "On your team" - that's a pretty vile lie.
    Vance is a thoroughgoing arsehole.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,211

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    That's an interesting and surprising post.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    Dura_Ace said:



    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    I doubt DJT has the attention span and organisational capability to alter, in any material sense beyond messaging, US policy on Ukraine.
    Of course he does.
    All it would require is the cessation of US aid. A GOP majority in Congress would probably sort that out for him.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,543
    Dura_Ace said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
    Thank you for your contribution.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


    "On your team" - that's a pretty vile lie.
    Vance is a thoroughgoing arsehole.
    In the Elegy book, towards the end, he writes about what might be called anger management type issues if I recall correctly. His upbring was in an environment where screaming at people rather than a quiet chiding and defending your own family with force, sometimes violence was ingrained. One relative attacks a man with a chainsaw for example iirc. This is the hillbilly way.

    His wife has to calm him down sometimes and remind him he is behaving inappropriately as he is no longer in the mountains of Kentucky. I think there is an example where he is about to get out of the car and paste someone who cut him up driving but she talks him out of it.

    Perhaps she is not around during this campaign?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180

    boulay said:

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
    Labour's hatred of wealth is going to come up against its love of the NHS.

    Wealthy people pay for the NHS.
    There is also a further interesting point. I work in IT in bank. Of my team, I am the only one born in the UK. There is one, who is long term settled (married to local, house etc). The others are 1st generation immigrants who have been in the country 3-5 years.

    The other day, when we were discussing tax, someone was saying that if CGT was put up substantially, then exiting the country and living abroad for a period of time was in his financial interest. Which led people to accuse that person of being "transactional" and that, if he had that attitude, then leave and good riddance.

    The recent immigrant members of the team have started discussing moving (in the bank) to another country or leaving for another country. The reason - concern over future tax rates. Is this transactional? Is it just to be expected? After all, they have lived nearly their entire lives in China, India etc. etc. While they are currently putting down roots - even studying for the citizenship test and spending money on the naturalisation process - they are very shallow roots.

    In short - a portion of the highly skilled workforce has very little social and emotional connection to this country. Their "personal cost of changing countries" is quite low. In the case of the bank, they have been told that they can move to any other bank office in the world - we have partial WFH and the team is already split between countries...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    I doubt DJT has the attention span and organisational capability to alter, in any material sense beyond messaging, US policy on Ukraine.
    Of course he does.
    All it would require is the cessation of US aid. A GOP majority in Congress would probably sort that out for him.
    It's cessed anyway. They aren't going to get another $60bn pinata through Congress any time soon.

    It's the EU glory hole that Big Z needs to be working.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930
    Cookie said:

    On thread: I'm no Scot, but I'm never convinced Gordon Brown's interventions are terribly long term helpful for the purpose of unionism. They seem to amount to a) I'm brilliant, everyone else is an arse, and b) Scotland, if you vote unionist, we'll give you more money and power. It's not really advancing a long-term philosophy for a union or for prosperity within that union, and nor is it criticising the case for independence. Brown - and indeed Darling - bear responsibility for the architecture of devolution, so have to maintain a facade that it's all working brilliantly, which doesn't make for an effective critique of independence.

    No doubt he will emerge from his coffin in the crypt in the BBC Scotland studio again today to tell us where we’re all going wrong.

  • mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Why does that mean he has to? Is it the law?

    If so, as a matter of interest, what other sorts of cases does the DPP have to announce at a press conference?
    People forget it was nearly two years from the start of the police investigation to the charging decision.

    There was plenty of comment on here and elsewhere that it was an establishment cover up (not realising there were other issues, Constance Briscoe and Isabel Oakeshott at first refusing to reveal her sources).

    Had it been left to a court listing it would have embolden those siren voices.
    A big problem with that is that SKS would have known he wanted to become an MP - it was not a decision he would have suddenly made in 2015. What better way of increasing your prominence with your side than announcing one of the 'enemy' is being prosecuted?
    Nah, it was a late decision, circa November 2014, because DPPs normally do not become MPs.

    It required special dispensation from Ed Miliband because you have be a Labour member for x years and he wasn’t.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


    "On your team" - that's a pretty vile lie.
    Vance is a thoroughgoing arsehole.
    In the Elegy book, towards the end, he writes about what might be called anger management type issues if I recall correctly. His upbring was in an environment where screaming at people rather than a quiet chiding and defending your own family with force, sometimes violence was ingrained. One relative attacks a man with a chainsaw for example iirc. This is the hillbilly way.

    His wife has to calm him down sometimes and remind him he is behaving inappropriately as he is no longer in the mountains of Kentucky. I think there is an example where he is about to get out of the car and paste someone who cut him up driving but she talks him out of it.

    Perhaps she is not around during this campaign?
    Have you ever seen the series "Justified"? It is somewhat exaggerated, but portrays someone who has come from that background and has responded by acquiring a veneer of extreme calm and reasonableness. As he takes his revenge on his upbringing. Literally.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.

    No, I think it's rubbish because you're simultaneously assuming that the next generation isn't producing anyone competent (without evidence), and that smashing the system will improve things - an idea which has been tested to destruction numerous times.

    "People like Elon Musk" have no idea of how to run a government.
    He's good at running engineering companies - but as he's demonstrated at Twitter (which has lost something like three quarters of its revenue), step outside his area of competence, and he's no better than the average idiot in the street.
    I think that is a reasonable comeback, particularly the point that Musk -politics is a different game to engineering, he would in my view achieve more by stepping back a bit from the propoganda war.

    The one caveat though, is that this isn't 'my view' - I am trying to explain why there is a cohort of centrist voters who end up supporting Trump. Sometimes radical disruption is necessary, although Trump adopts a strategy of performatively breaking fundamental rules, which is dangerous, and is why I would ultimately not vote for him - were I to have a vote.

    Regarding the universities, this is a view I have which formed by reading 'the coddling of the american mind' about 6 years ago. But it is not a total condemnation of academia. The point I might add is that public service/government work tends to increasingly attract activists due to the poor levels of pay compared with tech.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,687

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


    "On your team" - that's a pretty vile lie.
    Vance is a thoroughgoing arsehole.
    In the Elegy book, towards the end, he writes about what might be called anger management type issues if I recall correctly. His upbring was in an environment where screaming at people rather than a quiet chiding and defending your own family with force, sometimes violence was ingrained. One relative attacks a man with a chainsaw for example iirc. This is the hillbilly way.

    His wife has to calm him down sometimes and remind him he is behaving inappropriately as he is no longer in the mountains of Kentucky. I think there is an example where he is about to get out of the car and paste someone who cut him up driving but she talks him out of it.

    Perhaps she is not around during this campaign?
    Have you ever seen the series "Justified"? It is somewhat exaggerated, but portrays someone who has come from that background and has responded by acquiring a veneer of extreme calm and reasonableness. As he takes his revenge on his upbringing. Literally.
    Not seen it. Thanks. I'll have a look.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,100
    edited September 18

    boulay said:

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
    Labour's hatred of wealth is going to come up against its love of the NHS.

    Wealthy people pay for the NHS.
    There is also a further interesting point. I work in IT in bank. Of my team, I am the only one born in the UK. There is one, who is long term settled (married to local, house etc). The others are 1st generation immigrants who have been in the country 3-5 years.

    The other day, when we were discussing tax, someone was saying that if CGT was put up substantially, then exiting the country and living abroad for a period of time was in his financial interest. Which led people to accuse that person of being "transactional" and that, if he had that attitude, then leave and good riddance.

    The recent immigrant members of the team have started discussing moving (in the bank) to another country or leaving for another country. The reason - concern over future tax rates. Is this transactional? Is it just to be expected? After all, they have lived nearly their entire lives in China, India etc. etc. While they are currently putting down roots - even studying for the citizenship test and spending money on the naturalisation process - they are very shallow roots.

    In short - a portion of the highly skilled workforce has very little social and emotional connection to this country. Their "personal cost of changing countries" is quite low. In the case of the bank, they have been told that they can move to any other bank office in the world - we have partial WFH and the team is already split between countries...
    I wonder how much this stuff will be defused when tax rates aren't raised anything like as much as suggested by the spleen-venting in the Mail and the Telegraph (if that turns out to be the case)?

    (Edited to be polite)

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180
    Dura_Ace said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
    I think we should trade land for peace.

    Russia should get North Wales. Ukraine should get Palestine. The Palestinians should get the Sakhalin. The Japanese should get Lichtenstein. The Northern Irish should get Swaziland.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.

    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    I don't think the western position is not as you describe; rather it's that it isn't for us to trade Ukrainian territory with Putin in exchange for a ceasefire, and only Ukraine can make that call.

    And there is absolutely nobody of any influence (apologies to you for the implied insult) arguing both that Ukraine should give up its eastern territories, and citizens, and be admitted to NATO - Putin has also rejected that idea.

    I'd agree with you that any peace settlement can really only be guaranteed by something along the lines of NATO membership for Ukraine. Previous agreements with Putin haven't been worth the paper they were written on, since they had no credible security guarantees backing them up.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,759

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    The Trump campaign building a narrative.

    "People on your team tried to kill Donald Trump twice"


    "On your team" - that's a pretty vile lie.
    Vance is a thoroughgoing arsehole.
    In the Elegy book, towards the end, he writes about what might be called anger management type issues if I recall correctly. His upbring was in an environment where screaming at people rather than a quiet chiding and defending your own family with force, sometimes violence was ingrained. One relative attacks a man with a chainsaw for example iirc. This is the hillbilly way.

    His wife has to calm him down sometimes and remind him he is behaving inappropriately as he is no longer in the mountains of Kentucky. I think there is an example where he is about to get out of the car and paste someone who cut him up driving but she talks him out of it.

    Perhaps she is not around during this campaign?
    Yeah he looks like an angry man, one late-arriving main course away from losing his shit completely. I used to work in a restaurant and I could recognise his type on arrival.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,484

    mercator said:

    Starmer held a press conference to announce the prosecution of Chris Huhne. It's the absolute foundation of the criminal justice system that you do nothing which might create prejudice against the Defendant without a bloody good reason to do so. There was no need to announce the prosecution except by listing R v Huhne in the relevant court, and let the local press pick it up. Starmer's charade created maximum prejudice - ooh look, the highest prosecutor in the land on national telly says there's a Case To Answer - for no benefit other than to raise Starmer's fishlike profile. I have despised him ever since.

    He had to, it was the prosecution of a sitting cabinet minister.
    Why does that mean he has to? Is it the law?

    If so, as a matter of interest, what other sorts of cases does the DPP have to announce at a press conference?
    People forget it was nearly two years from the start of the police investigation to the charging decision.

    There was plenty of comment on here and elsewhere that it was an establishment cover up (not realising there were other issues, Constance Briscoe and Isabel Oakeshott at first refusing to reveal her sources).

    Had it been left to a court listing it would have embolden those siren voices.
    A big problem with that is that SKS would have known he wanted to become an MP - it was not a decision he would have suddenly made in 2015. What better way of increasing your prominence with your side than announcing one of the 'enemy' is being prosecuted?
    Nah, it was a late decision, circa November 2014, because DPPs normally do not become MPs.

    It required special dispensation from Ed Miliband because you have be a Labour member for x years and he wasn’t.
    And if there is one thing we have learned about SKS, apart from his dad being a toolmaker, is that he never ever ever would make a mistake and not know the deadlines for things and when bodies should be notified about important matters.

    If he wasn’t this perfect paragon of Legal brilliance then he could trip up with something silly like declaring clothes donations late.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,100
    edited September 18
    FPT:

    The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the company’s AP924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included in the shipment.

    The explosive material, as little as one to two ounces, was implanted next to the battery in each pager, two of the officials said. A switch was also embedded that could be triggered remotely to detonate the explosives.

    At 3:30 p.m. in Lebanon, the pagers received a message that appeared as though it was coming from Hezbollah’s leadership, two of the officials said. Instead, the message activated the explosives. Lebanon’s health minister told state media at least nine people were killed and more than 2,800 injured.

    The devices were programmed to beep for several seconds before exploding, according to three of the officials.

    Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from the Gold Apollo company in Taiwan, said several of the officials. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to their members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching Hezbollah allies in Iran and Syria. Israel’s attack affected the pagers that were switched on and receiving messages.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html

    Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon was among 2,800 other people who were wounded by the simultaneous blasts in Beirut and several other regions.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7xnelvpepo

    Seems Hezbollah operatives are very good
    at keeping their beepers charged up, unlike most teenagers with their cellphones.

    So why does the Iranian ambassador have a communications device provided by a prescribed terrorist organisation?
    Isn't he the Management? :smile:
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,759

    Dura_Ace said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
    I think we should trade land for peace.

    Russia should get North Wales. Ukraine should get Palestine. The Palestinians should get the Sakhalin. The Japanese should get Lichtenstein. The Northern Irish should get Swaziland.
    Big G won't be happy!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180
    MattW said:

    boulay said:

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    I had a meeting yesterday with someone in that business who confirmed to me that enquiries pre election to the local gov arm who handle SHNW relocatirs were about 3 per month. They are currently 12 new per week.

    I was also told of a number of Financial companies relocating key parts from London to here and it’s all down to the fear and feeling that Labour are going to screw them.

    I’ve said it before - I’m not happy about this, doesn’t improve my life but diminishes the UK which I love.

    This is corporate tax, spending with the VAT and jobs associated, stamp duties, staff etc etc going.
    Labour's hatred of wealth is going to come up against its love of the NHS.

    Wealthy people pay for the NHS.
    There is also a further interesting point. I work in IT in bank. Of my team, I am the only one born in the UK. There is one, who is long term settled (married to local, house etc). The others are 1st generation immigrants who have been in the country 3-5 years.

    The other day, when we were discussing tax, someone was saying that if CGT was put up substantially, then exiting the country and living abroad for a period of time was in his financial interest. Which led people to accuse that person of being "transactional" and that, if he had that attitude, then leave and good riddance.

    The recent immigrant members of the team have started discussing moving (in the bank) to another country or leaving for another country. The reason - concern over future tax rates. Is this transactional? Is it just to be expected? After all, they have lived nearly their entire lives in China, India etc. etc. While they are currently putting down roots - even studying for the citizenship test and spending money on the naturalisation process - they are very shallow roots.

    In short - a portion of the highly skilled workforce has very little social and emotional connection to this country. Their "personal cost of changing countries" is quite low. In the case of the bank, they have been told that they can move to any other bank office in the world - we have partial WFH and the team is already split between countries...
    I wonder how much this stuff will be defused when tax rates aren't raised anything like as much as suggested by the spleen-venting in the Mail and the Telegraph (if that turns out to be the case)?

    (Edited to be polite)

    Who knows.

    But it is interesting, a new constraint (possibly) on the actions of government. If a chunk of the middle class tax base is willing and able to leave at short notice and low cost (in the style that one the really rich could do, until recently)......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180

    Dura_Ace said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
    I think we should trade land for peace.

    Russia should get North Wales. Ukraine should get Palestine. The Palestinians should get the Sakhalin. The Japanese should get Lichtenstein. The Northern Irish should get Swaziland.
    Big G won't be happy!
    Hey, "It's For Peace"

    How does it go - "Justice requires sacrifices. Are you prepared to be one of them?"
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,930

    Dura_Ace said:

    darkage said:

    I have been thinking carefully about 'why would someone sane vote for Trump'. I think the argument is as follows. The democrats are trading on familiarity, ie they represent the continuation of an existing, stable order. But the order they are presiding over is failing. It trades on a kind of 'familiarity bias'. But they have very weak answers to existential problems: AI, the rise of china, foreign wars. All this may be just about tolerable, if you think that business as usual can be maintained and that the alternative is worse. But actually, there are many signs that the institutional order that prevails within the 'liberal establishment' and perpetuates the current system is itself deeply unstable. The most obvious structural problem is the gradual replacement of competent and experienced people who are retiring and replaced by those leaving university who are on the left and are becoming more and more radical in outlook, reflecting the last 10 years of change in higher education. Under this influence, the next democrat administration and the state institutions are likely to struggle severely and existentially with questions like Israel/ Palestine, border control, controlling illegal immigration, the arms race with China, and so on - whilst also dealing with massive internal domestic opposition - and to such a degree that there is a risk of rapid collapse, in a similar way to that which occurred in the soviet union 40 years ago.

    Most people posting on this website will respond to the above by saying it is rubbish, there is no problem in the universities, it is based on generational anxieties and fears about change etc. In the end that just represents a different analysis and there are some persuasive arguments in favour of this perspective. But I would just say that it doesn't help your cause by resorting to insults towards people who have a different view.

    People like Elon Musk have clearly thought very carefully about their position, and I think it is based on something like the analysis above. The system is collapsing, the collapse has to be disrupted, and Trump - for all the many dangers and flaws - is the only option going.



    It's a persuasive analysis. But in addition, some people mainly care about one issue, on which Trump may be closer to their viewpoint, whether it's abortion, Ukraine, the Supreme Court, or whatever.

    Personally I feel our pro-Ukraine position rejecting an inch of boundary change is exagerrated and dangerous, and we should be encouraging peace talks involving the east being merged into Russia and the West merged into the west, including NATO. I have no influence over the outcome, so it doesn't matter what I think, but if I actually had a vote I'd be tempted to vote for Trump - except that he's clearly bonkers on almost every other issue, so I suppose I'd vote Democrat.

    This position is in at least some parts shared by roughly nobody, so I'm tempted not even to express it in the relatively friendly confines of PB. My point, though, is that everyone has their own priorities which opinion polls struggle to represent. My betting position is strongly pro-Democrat as it seems to me that Harris should be clear favourite at this point. But I'm uneasily aware that there are cross-currents under the surface which few of us fully understand.
    Why do you think eastern Ukraine should go to Russia?
    And how do you define the 'east' ?
    And why do you trust Putin?
    𝑻𝑯𝑬 𝑲𝑹𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑵 𝑨𝑾𝑨𝑲𝑬𝑺
    I think we should trade land for peace.

    Russia should get North Wales. Ukraine should get Palestine. The Palestinians should get the Sakhalin. The Japanese should get Lichtenstein. The Northern Irish should get Swaziland.
    What’s Swaziland done to deserve such a fate? If they’ve been naughty, just send them Allanbrooke as a punishment.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,774
    Good morning, everyone.

    Labour being vague and only speaking of tax hikes rather than growth having the consequence of driving out the wealthy is not exactly a shocker. Still a month or more until the Budget, right? Plenty of time to chase away more high-earning tax payers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,180
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the company’s AP924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included in the shipment.

    The explosive material, as little as one to two ounces, was implanted next to the battery in each pager, two of the officials said. A switch was also embedded that could be triggered remotely to detonate the explosives.

    At 3:30 p.m. in Lebanon, the pagers received a message that appeared as though it was coming from Hezbollah’s leadership, two of the officials said. Instead, the message activated the explosives. Lebanon’s health minister told state media at least nine people were killed and more than 2,800 injured.

    The devices were programmed to beep for several seconds before exploding, according to three of the officials.

    Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from the Gold Apollo company in Taiwan, said several of the officials. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to their members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching Hezbollah allies in Iran and Syria. Israel’s attack affected the pagers that were switched on and receiving messages.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html

    Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon was among 2,800 other people who were wounded by the simultaneous blasts in Beirut and several other regions.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7xnelvpepo

    Seems Hezbollah operatives are very good
    at keeping their beepers charged up, unlike most teenagers with their cellphones.

    So why does the Iranian ambassador have a communications device provided by a prescribed terrorist organisation?
    Isn't he the Management? :smile:
    The relationship between Hezbollah and Iran is very deep. Iran finances them to a very large extent and even dictates (to a considerable extent) their actions. You could say that Hezbollah is a subsidiary with a majority shareholding by Iran.

    It is the very reverse of surprising that the Iranian ambassador was on their C&C network.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    edited September 18

    Iain Martin reposted

    Christian May
    @ChristianJMay

    Marcelo Goulart, of the Zurich-based wealth advisor First Alliance, has been so busy helping clients leave the UK that he’s had no summer holiday. He tells @CityAM
    that 80 per cent of his “UK exposed” clients have either left the country or are in the final stages of doing so.

    https://cityam.com/its-becoming-clear-that-the-governments-efforts-are-focused-on-short-term-revenue-raising-rather-than-long-term-pro-growth-reform/

    https://x.com/ChristianJMay/status/1836298488478601333

    This is definitely happening, especially among ‘non-doms’ such as people in Mrs Sunak’s position, who are moving their primary residence to places like the sandpit in anticipation of a tightening of the rules.

    UAE is offering 10-year ‘golden visa’ opportunities to anyone with a salary of $100k or making an investment of $500k.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 929
    See the FBI is warning about US polling being hacked. Can we believe the figures the organisations are giving us?
This discussion has been closed.