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Betfair unmoved by the latest Trump assassination attempt – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited September 29 in General
imageBetfair unmoved by the latest Trump assassination attempt – politicalbetting.com

One of the biggest overreactions in this market was in the immeediate aftermath after the first assassination attempt. The reason I felt this was a massive overreaction was that Gerald Ford was on the receiving end of two attempted assassination attempts and still lost the 1976 election. It appears punters have understood precedent.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 435
    edited September 16
    UN Gaza aid chief: World is failing innocent civilians

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gg9k76w9o
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html
  • Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    I mean it is nearly sixty one years since the Secret Service lost a POTUS.

    For soccer fans, that is close to the last time Spurs won the title.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    edited September 16
    Betfair might be unmoved - but it hasn't dtopped Trump sending out a fundraiser on the back of it.

    Maybe he thinks the next assassin will succeed - and end his grifting opportunities.

    Shows that Trump has taken the dangerous option though - playing golf rather than meeting his adoring supporters.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    edited September 16

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    According to the US actuarial life tables, a 78 year old man has a 5.3% chance of death (presumably over a year), and you'd guess there would also be a chance of a debilitating deterioration in his health that would lead to Trump's withdrawal from the race (stroke, major heart attack, etc).

    So logically there's a not negligible chance that the Republicans have a different nominee by November, but the market would suggest that they would be very likely to lose in that event.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    According to the US actuarial life tables, a 78 year old man has a 5.3% chance of death (presumably over a year), and you'd guess there would also be a chance of a debilitating deterioration in his health that would lead to Trump's withdrawal from the race (stroke, major heart attack, etc).

    So logically there's a not negligible chance that the Republicans have a different nominee by November, but the market would suggest that they would be very likely to lose in that event.
    So a ball park figure of around 20% that Vance becomes POTUS if Trump wins.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    Betfair might be unmoved - but it hasn't dtopped Trump sending out a fundraiser on the back of it.

    Maybe he thinks the next assassin will succeed - and end his grifting opportunities.

    Shows that Trump has taken the dangerous option though - playing golf rather than meeting his adoring supporters.

    It must play on one's mental health this.

    If the worst did happen Vance would fly in, and Harris would significantly shorten, even if Betfair and other suspended the markets for a while so a £5 on him might be an idea.

    Also covers a complete breakdown by Trump and a belated withdrawal due to a "conspiracy" or a "rigged race" which, although unlikely, isn't impossible.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    Maybe it would be sensible to ban such people from having guns in the future.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    Foxy said:

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    According to the US actuarial life tables, a 78 year old man has a 5.3% chance of death (presumably over a year), and you'd guess there would also be a chance of a debilitating deterioration in his health that would lead to Trump's withdrawal from the race (stroke, major heart attack, etc).

    So logically there's a not negligible chance that the Republicans have a different nominee by November, but the market would suggest that they would be very likely to lose in that event.
    So a ball park figure of around 20% that Vance becomes POTUS if Trump wins.
    Yes.

    Old Presidents are great for VPs - ask Harris.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    Another day, another Telegraph story about tax increases in the budget

    This time IHT on family homes.

    I wonder what it will be tomorrow.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/reeves-urged-to-launch-2bn-inheritance-tax-raid-on-family-homes/ar-AA1qDGdK?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=aedb49599803465aa3cad1c80b3c20dd&ei=12
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    #StagedAssassinationAttempt

    has 15K posts already.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934

    Foxy said:

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    According to the US actuarial life tables, a 78 year old man has a 5.3% chance of death (presumably over a year), and you'd guess there would also be a chance of a debilitating deterioration in his health that would lead to Trump's withdrawal from the race (stroke, major heart attack, etc).

    So logically there's a not negligible chance that the Republicans have a different nominee by November, but the market would suggest that they would be very likely to lose in that event.
    So a ball park figure of around 20% that Vance becomes POTUS if Trump wins.
    Yes.

    Old Presidents are great for VPs - ask Harris.
    The big money behind Project 2025 might prefer Vance, should Trump get elected. Perhaps the "25" in the title refers not the year but to the 25th Amendment - time for everyone to admit that Trump is unfit to govern and move in his malleable Veep?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    Taz said:

    Another day, another Telegraph story about tax increases in the budget

    This time IHT on family homes.

    I wonder what it will be tomorrow.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/reeves-urged-to-launch-2bn-inheritance-tax-raid-on-family-homes/ar-AA1qDGdK?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=aedb49599803465aa3cad1c80b3c20dd&ei=12

    If every tax rise predicted by the Telegraph comes to pass, the Government will be rolling in money. We’ll have paid off the national debt by 2027.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Do we know if the "assassin" actually got any shots away - or the shots fired were by the security detail?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    Taz said:

    Another day, another Telegraph story about tax increases in the budget

    This time IHT on family homes.

    I wonder what it will be tomorrow.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/reeves-urged-to-launch-2bn-inheritance-tax-raid-on-family-homes/ar-AA1qDGdK?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=aedb49599803465aa3cad1c80b3c20dd&ei=12

    If every tax rise predicted by the Telegraph comes to pass, the Government will be rolling in money. We’ll have paid off the national debt by 2027.
    Still weeks to go. Budget speculation usually lasts about a week. This year it’s gone crazy.

    It’ll almost be disappointing if the budget isn’t an apocalypic tax hiking event. (Almost).
  • kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    Yes but was he a Democrat or Republican unlicensed driver with a machine gun?
  • Taz said:

    Another day, another Telegraph story about tax increases in the budget

    This time IHT on family homes.

    I wonder what it will be tomorrow.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/reeves-urged-to-launch-2bn-inheritance-tax-raid-on-family-homes/ar-AA1qDGdK?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=aedb49599803465aa3cad1c80b3c20dd&ei=12

    It's like people pulling faces at the Buckingham Palace guards. The guards can't respond, so it becomes a game.

    Nobody expects the government to confirm or deny the contents of the Budget, so the Telegraph can speculate away. Or shit-stir, as it's commonly known.

    See also Vance's latest antics. It's why the taboo on outright lying is so important, and people breaking that taboo are so dangerous.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    edited September 16

    Do we know if the "assassin" actually got any shots away - or the shots fired were by the security detail?

    Shots were fired by secret service, then the would be assassin ran away.

    Had a known history of dodginess. Exactly the sort of person who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a high powered rifle.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    Do we know if the "assassin" actually got any shots away - or the shots fired were by the security detail?

    Shots were fired by the USSS. It doesn’t appear as if the gunman actually fired any shots, although that hasn’t been 100% confirmed,
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420

    kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    Yes but was he a Democrat or Republican unlicensed driver with a machine gun?
    Voted Trump in 2016. Registered as a Democrat more recently.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 16

    Do we know if the "assassin" actually got any shots away - or the shots fired were by the security detail?

    As far as I can tell from my (brilliant) Bluesky feed the armed person didn't get anywhere near Trump and didn't manage to do any shooting. The Secret Service saw their gun poking out of the bushes and thinking this may indicate hostile intent, shot at them, and missed. At which point they tried to escape, and got as far as driving off in their car, but then subsequently had their collar felt.

    So it seems like the Secret Service did their job OK, it wasn't a near miss like the thing with the kid at the airport.

    Early information often turns out to be wrong, we should know more later.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433

    Do we know if the "assassin" actually got any shots away - or the shots fired were by the security detail?

    From what I've read, that's unclear.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    edited September 16

    kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    Yes but was he a Democrat or Republican unlicensed driver with a machine gun?
    Unaffiliated it seems.

    He chose the Dem primary ballot as Hayley and Rameswamy had both dropped out of the Republican one in NC by the time the ballot happened, or so it's reported.

    He's politically a bit all over the place, more a generalised conspiracies and fantasist.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236

    #StagedAssassinationAttempt

    has 15K posts already.

    It may not matter if the assassination attempt was staged. What is sure, the Trump uses them to further his campaign. The timing of this one is ideal given his recent polling setback.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    Foxy said:

    kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    Yes but was he a Democrat or Republican unlicensed driver with a machine gun?
    Unaffiliated it seems.

    He chose the Dem primary ballot as Hayley and Rameswamy had both dropped out of the Republican one in NC by the time the ballot happened, or so it's reported.

    He's politically a bit all over the place, more a generalised conspiracies and fantasist.
    Reported as a “pro-Ukraine activist”, so that’ll send MAGA a bit further down the Putin rabbit hole, won’t it.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,554
    I wonder how many times people have to try and kill you before you realise you aren’t overly popular and maybe being president again isn’t worth being killed for?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    edited September 16
    Of course the obvious question as to how he had an AK47 will be missed. You’d think his previous run in with the law might bar someone from owning any gun.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112
    boulay said:

    I wonder how many times people have to try and kill you before you realise you aren’t overly popular and maybe being president again isn’t worth being killed for?

    It's only his grudges that keep him going. He would rather be golfing than governing otherwise.

    Indeed if elected, I think he will spend a lot of time on the links and just let his imps get on with it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 16
    TimS said:

    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.

    They fucked it when they started boosting the replies of people who paid. This wrecks everything because making a feed good is all about trimming out the people who are desperate for attention, and the most desperate for attention are the people who pay. Even following people who aren't doing that doesn't work, because the replies were always an essential part of the experience, and now they're immediately overwhelmed by the fee-paying drama queens.

    Use BlueSky, it's fabulous.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.
  • nico679 said:

    Of course the obvious question as to how he had an AK47 will be missed. You’d think his previous run in with the law might bar someone from owning any gun.

    In Murica the crazier you are the more it is constitutionally imperative that you own a gun to deter the gubbermint or something.

    I know that the blessed 2nd refers to a “well-regulated militia”, but I’m sure individual crazies paranoid about the feds armed with automatic weapons is exactly what they were thinking when they wrote it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 16
    On the subject of former Trump supporters who switched to Haley or Ramaswamy and may be open to voting for Kamala Harris, this podcast is really great:

    https://www.thebulwark.com/s/thefocusgroup

    The latest one is a bit dull because they're interviewing some journalist instead of concentrating on the focus group clips but it's still worth listening to.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    edited September 16
    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    I wonder how many times people have to try and kill you before you realise you aren’t overly popular and maybe being president again isn’t worth being killed for?

    It's only his grudges that keep him going. He would rather be golfing than governing otherwise.

    Indeed if elected, I think he will spend a lot of time on the links and just let his imps get on with it.
    In fact why was the lazy, fat **** cheating his way round his own golf course in the run up to the titanic political struggle of his life? Perhaps Trump really believes all the polling shows he won the debate and is on his way to victory.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,934
    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Alternatively, Springfield is overrun by Haitian childless cat ladies?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,112

    TimS said:

    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.

    They fucked it when they started boosting the replies of people who paid. This wrecks everything because making a feed good is all about trimming out the people who are desperate for attention. Even following people who aren't doing that doesn't work, because the replies were always an essential part of the experience, and now they're immediately overwhelmed by the fee-paying drama queens.

    Use BlueSky, it's fabulous.
    Twitter still works if you set up lists. I have one for UK Medicine and another for PB and Polling. This function has not yet been ruined, and is quite good for focused areas that you want to follow without being spammed by conspiracy loons and trolls.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213
    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Well Vance’s disinformation managed to convince PB en masse (and I didn’t think to check the numbers myself), so doubtless it’s worked a treat stateside.

    Those stats above make the lie so blatant and so weak that the Dems really should go hard on it. If you’re going to fight the opposition on their strongest ground, you need to choose a story where they’re unusually weak.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: interesting result. Not impossible either Leclerc or Piastri could surpass Norris, or that Norris could yet claim the title.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    nico679 said:

    Of course the obvious question as to how he had an AK47 will be missed. You’d think his previous run in with the law might bar someone from owning any gun.

    In Murica the crazier you are the more it is constitutionally imperative that you own a gun to deter the gubbermint or something.

    I know that the blessed 2nd refers to a “well-regulated militia”, but I’m sure individual crazies paranoid about the feds armed with automatic weapons is exactly what they were thinking when they wrote it.
    A future liberal Supreme Court will re-interpret "well-regulated" to refer to air rifles, and deem all other weapons illegal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    I wonder how many times people have to try and kill you before you realise you aren’t overly popular and maybe being president again isn’t worth being killed for?

    It's only his grudges that keep him going. He would rather be golfing than governing otherwise.

    Indeed if elected, I think he will spend a lot of time on the links and just let his imps get on with it.
    And his need to stay out of prison.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    I wonder how many times people have to try and kill you before you realise you aren’t overly popular and maybe being president again isn’t worth being killed for?

    It's only his grudges that keep him going. He would rather be golfing than governing otherwise.

    Indeed if elected, I think he will spend a lot of time on the links and just let his imps get on with it.
    And his need to stay out of prison.
    That was certainly the main motivation for Berlusconi (=John the Baptist to Trump's Christ) to start his personal political party. Berlusconi at least used his own cash.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    If the US national press really was "liberal", then you'd see this sort of headline in the NYT or WaPo, rather than the Philadelphia Enquirer.
    You don't.

    Kristi Noem, who shot her dog, is stumping for Trump in Pa. after he claimed that immigrants are eating pets
    https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/kristi-noem-berks-county-donald-trump-20240912.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    I doubt the latest assassination attempt on Trump makes much difference to polling. The shooter didn't get to actually have a shot at Trump unlike the earlier one.

    However if Trump's elected the shooter's links to pro Ukraine groups is unlikely to make Trump look favourably on helping Zelensky
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. HYUFD, Trump was already a useful idiot for Putin, I suspect.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited September 16
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.

    They fucked it when they started boosting the replies of people who paid. This wrecks everything because making a feed good is all about trimming out the people who are desperate for attention. Even following people who aren't doing that doesn't work, because the replies were always an essential part of the experience, and now they're immediately overwhelmed by the fee-paying drama queens.

    Use BlueSky, it's fabulous.
    Twitter still works if you set up lists. I have one for UK Medicine and another for PB and Polling. This function has not yet been ruined, and is quite good for focused areas that you want to follow without being spammed by conspiracy loons and trolls.
    I was doing that for a while but I think the value of lists is also in decline, firstly because replies don't work for the reason I gave, and secondly because the non-drama-queens you put on the list are gradually leaving.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 238
    "someone could shoot me on 5th Avenue and I wouldn't gain any votes'!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,420
    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Alternatively, Springfield is overrun by Haitian childless cat ladies?
    … who are all billionaire rock stars…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172

    nico679 said:

    Of course the obvious question as to how he had an AK47 will be missed. You’d think his previous run in with the law might bar someone from owning any gun.

    In Murica the crazier you are the more it is constitutionally imperative that you own a gun to deter the gubbermint or something.

    I know that the blessed 2nd refers to a “well-regulated militia”, but I’m sure individual crazies paranoid about the feds armed with automatic weapons is exactly what they were thinking when they wrote it.
    Note that as president, Trump got rid of the rule which blocked the mentally ill from acquiring guns.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857

    UN Gaza aid chief: World is failing innocent civilians

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gg9k76w9o

    Perhaps he should campaign to set up an international organisation every state belongs to to address exactly these failings. You could call it 'Nations United' or 'United Nations' or something like that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    nico679 said:

    Of course the obvious question as to how he had an AK47 will be missed. You’d think his previous run in with the law might bar someone from owning any gun.

    It sounds, from the charges, that he doesn’t have an FFL (Federal Firearms License).

    To own a fully automatic weapon in the US, you need one.

    To get one, requires a process about as strict as a firearms license in the U.K. - includes background checks etc.

    It is notable that basically no crimes are committed with legal fully automatic weapons in the US. Gun control, in the case of fully automatic weapons, works.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    edited September 16

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
    I'm sure they are (which was why I wrote "probably").

    But the 20,000 number has been uncritically accepted since it was promulgated. Given the national media attention, it's dismal that there's been almost no serious analysis of the figures.

    It ought to be pretty easy to check those school roll numbers, for example.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Might this achieve some sort of national consensus ?
    If so, this government won't have been a total failure.

    ‘The moment has come’: pro-building Labour yimbys are set to raise the roof
    Proponents of more homes, turbines and infrastructure – even on the green belt – prepare for rally at party conference
    Fewer than one in five UK voters are ‘hard nimbys’, finds survey
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/15/the-moment-has-come-pro-building-labour-yimbys-are-set-to-raise-the-roof
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,172
    Vance continues to demonstrate that he can't be trusted on facts.

    On @MeetThePress, Vance claimed Trump helped more people get health insurance coverage, and specifically Obamacare marketplace coverage.
    This is false. The uninsured rate *rose* under Trump; it has fallen to its lowest level on record under Biden.

    https://x.com/crampell/status/1835376195870892448
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Alternatively, Springfield is overrun by Haitian childless cat ladies?
    … who are all billionaire rock stars…
    Fun fact, this is the Springfield of Buffalo Springfield, the steamroller manufacturer from which the band name was taken.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    edited September 16
    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Good morning everyone.

    I think there are several things here:

    1 - Trump and Vance lie, and when exposed they change their lies to the next version. That is absolutely routine and their followers believe it, some passionately - through hero worship, lack of awareness or the stuff matching their actual opinions.

    We see some waking up and publishing how they regret p*ssing their life savings away on a con artist.

    I think one question here is how far do Trump and Vance believe their own lies?

    Does Tump actually believe the stuff about the Jan 2020 rioters being "hostages" and 'victime'?


    2 - The Usonian MSM is as lazy, and in some places as deliberately political, as the MSM here. Though they have a better theoretical commitment to a fair process than exists here - for example in separation of reporting and opinion. Not reporting some important things leading to distortion by changing the mix is imo a common problem.

    Whether failing to stick to a better process (USA) is better than failing to stick to a worse process (UK) is a somewhat moot point.

    But that's why many of us go on the personal brand of the writer far more these days than we do on the brand of the media outlet.

    3 - Last time all the Courts across scores of legal (~60) actions by Trump's Team attempting to undermine the 2020 Election were firmly thrown out for the nonsense they were.

    This time? I'm not so sure. And I'm not sure how the now thoroughly poisoned GOP, their fellow travellers, and Trump's useful idiots will react.

    4 - The implications for USA allies and other countries are one that has not been worked through in detail afaics. I hope that the UK Govt and Civil Service back office staff are on this one, especially in the Defence / Security area.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972

    Taz said:

    Another day, another Telegraph story about tax increases in the budget

    This time IHT on family homes.

    I wonder what it will be tomorrow.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/reeves-urged-to-launch-2bn-inheritance-tax-raid-on-family-homes/ar-AA1qDGdK?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=aedb49599803465aa3cad1c80b3c20dd&ei=12

    If every tax rise predicted by the Telegraph comes to pass, the Government will be rolling in money. We’ll have paid off the national debt by 2027.
    Indeed, and here's another !!!!

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/how-to-stop-labour-from-taking-your-pension-tax-free-lump-sum/ar-AA1qyK3a?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=1d066e1a50b64529b9297402cfcbe4dc&ei=14
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,972
    algarkirk said:

    UN Gaza aid chief: World is failing innocent civilians

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0gg9k76w9o

    Perhaps he should campaign to set up an international organisation every state belongs to to address exactly these failings. You could call it 'Nations United' or 'United Nations' or something like that.
    League of Nations ?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
    One theory is 20,000 is right for all immigrants not just Haitians (though I don't see how this is not reflected in school stats)
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Are we getting a State of the Union post today?

    Harris has crept up to 60% chance of winning on 538:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/

    Not sure what Silver has now - it's paywalled - but must be over 40%

    Still, the race is now officially back in toss-up range, which we define as each candidate having at least a 40 percent chance of winning.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/nate-silver-2024-president-election-polls-model
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    I mean it is nearly sixty one years since the Secret Service lost a POTUS.

    For soccer fans, that is close to the last time Spurs won the title.
    Although Spurs let’s Chelsea get away with murder

  • Good morning for LD Conference! I can reassure Casino that much drinking was done last night at the mass Kareoke party
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Foxy said:

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    According to the US actuarial life tables, a 78 year old man has a 5.3% chance of death (presumably over a year), and you'd guess there would also be a chance of a debilitating deterioration in his health that would lead to Trump's withdrawal from the race (stroke, major heart attack, etc).

    So logically there's a not negligible chance that the Republicans have a different nominee by November, but the market would suggest that they would be very likely to lose in that event.
    So a ball park figure of around 20% that Vance becomes POTUS if Trump wins.
    You don’t know the plan then…

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,760
    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    They can urge what they want but it's up to Biden and the gang at Foggy Bottom, not SKS.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,549
    I see that Thierry Breton the French Commissioner in the EU commission has resigned. He had been renominated by Macron for a second term.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXk806iWAAAO-ch?format=jpg&name=large

    It is interesting that his resignation letter is in English.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    Pity for Trump that the perps of the 2 hit attempts look ideal types for MAGA....

    This latest one comes across as a really likeable wackjob that would provide Oscar bait for an ageing actor like Dennis Quaid in a Clint Eastwood biopic....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    HYUFD said:

    I doubt the latest assassination attempt on Trump makes much difference to polling. The shooter didn't get to actually have a shot at Trump unlike the earlier one.

    However if Trump's elected the shooter's links to pro Ukraine groups is unlikely to make Trump look favourably on helping Zelensky

    Paragraph 2. Have you just woken up having nodded off in March 2022?
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 238

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
    let's say each child has just one parent, thats already 15,000 Haitians........most will have two parents. I mean that pretty close to 20,000.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    kamski said:

    I haven't heard if the gun Routh used was legal or not but this from 2002 might be relevant:

    An armed man was arrested Monday morning after barricading himself in a business during a three-hour standoff, police said.

    Ryan Routh, 36, was arrested without incident at 1 a.m. Monday at United Roofing, 1735 W. Lee St., Greensboro police said.Routh was pulled over about 10 p.m. Sunday during a traffic stop, police said. But he put his hand on a firearm and drove to United Roofing, where he remained barricaded inside, police said.

    Routh was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a weapon of mass destruction, referring to a fully automatic machine gun. He was also charged with resisting, delaying and obstructing a law enforcement officer and driving while license revoked.


    https://greensboro.com/man-with-gun-barricades-self-inside-business/article_3006b4f9-9370-5b08-a54e-46c87faf6cbe.html

    If that's the US definition of WMDs then I guess they did have Saddam Hussein bang to rights after all!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Harris and Trump still 99% between the two of them so the markets clearly don't have a lot of confidence in the skills of whichever faction of the Republican party is going to have a go next.

    Or to put it more positively, a great deal of confidence in the skills of the two candidates’ personal protection staff.
    I mean it is nearly sixty one years since the Secret Service lost a POTUS.

    For soccer fans, that is close to the last time Spurs won the title.
    There have been some close calls since though, where the outcome was the result of the assassin's incompetence rather than Secret Service skill.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    Brave Sir Boris hoping for a return to Number 10?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Nigelb said:

    Vance continues to demonstrate that he can't be trusted on facts.

    On @MeetThePress, Vance claimed Trump helped more people get health insurance coverage, and specifically Obamacare marketplace coverage.
    This is false. The uninsured rate *rose* under Trump; it has fallen to its lowest level on record under Biden.

    https://x.com/crampell/status/1835376195870892448

    In absolute numbers? It may be misleading but not necessarily wrong (I don’t know).

    The tweeter is accusing him of lying based on irrelevant data
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    Nigelb said:

    Might this achieve some sort of national consensus ?
    If so, this government won't have been a total failure.

    ‘The moment has come’: pro-building Labour yimbys are set to raise the roof
    Proponents of more homes, turbines and infrastructure – even on the green belt – prepare for rally at party conference
    Fewer than one in five UK voters are ‘hard nimbys’, finds survey
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/15/the-moment-has-come-pro-building-labour-yimbys-are-set-to-raise-the-roof

    The problem is that the minority are very vocal and determined. And rapidly discover ways to slow things down in The Process.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832

    #StagedAssassinationAttempt

    has 15K posts already.

    Nah, that would have been a shot taken, trump batting the bullet away with a nine iron* and then taking out the assailant with a wedge* before the secret service reacted. Americans love an action hero, after all :smiley:

    *I know nothing of golf, which might be obvious from my use of these terms

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    mercator said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    Alternatively, Springfield is overrun by Haitian childless cat ladies?
    … who are all billionaire rock stars…
    Fun fact, this is the Springfield of Buffalo Springfield, the steamroller manufacturer from which the band name was taken.
    You mean it’s not Dusty Springfield?

  • kamski said:

    Are we getting a State of the Union post today?

    Harris has crept up to 60% chance of winning on 538:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/

    Not sure what Silver has now - it's paywalled - but must be over 40%

    Still, the race is now officially back in toss-up range, which we define as each candidate having at least a 40 percent chance of winning.

    https://www.natesilver.net/p/nate-silver-2024-president-election-polls-model

    Not listened to this o don’t know if it sheds any light.

    https://x.com/campbellclaret/status/1835583769761202212?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,877
    edited September 16
    FPT, for @mercator
    mercator said:

    MattW said:

    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    ‘I’m selling 35 of my 65 rental homes – this is only the beginning under Labour’

    For many fed-up landlords, the Renters’ Rights Bill is the final straw


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/selling-35-rental-homes-labour-not-only-one/

    Sounds like a nice CGT windfall for Reeves. Winners all round!
    Nah, he will buy the First Lady some fancy knickers and an exemption applying to his case will coincidentally crop up in the budget. You have a lot to learn about life in a banana republic.
    Appearance of corruption was Robert Jenrick I think.

    In personal communication with Richard Desmond re: a planning decision, then used his Housing Minister position to approve the Planning Permission on Westferry, which would have helped Desmond avoid £45m in tax - payable to Tower Hamlets if it had been approved one day later.

    Then 2 weeks later accepted a donation from Desmond of £12k.

    I'd be interested to know the outcome re whether the action was lawful given the communication.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

    It was unlawful. Essentially Jenrick abused his authority and displayed "apparent bias".

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/18/westferry-property-scheme-ditched-after-minister-rejects-appeal-robert-jenrick-richard-desmond

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/25/tory-donor-richard-desmond-revives-controversial-east-london-housing-development

    If they elect him, they deserve everything they get.
    For sure Jenrick is horrific. But "less corrupt than Robert Jenrick" doesn't sell a PM to me any more than "less paedophilic than Jimmy Savile" sells a babysitter.
    That comparison seems to me only to have meaning if you can show in some way that the current PM is in some way corrupt, so that is the choice to be made. Otherwise it is rhetoric.

    Can you demonstrate that?

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Nunu3 said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
    let's say each child has just one parent, thats already 15,000 Haitians........most will have two parents. I mean that pretty close to 20,000.
    I believe those are all children, immigrant or local
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: interesting result. Not impossible either Leclerc or Piastri could surpass Norris, or that Norris could yet claim the title.

    Piastri couldn't have got the win without the help of Norris and I suspect that will be rather important going forward - Norris is owed a favour which may well be called in.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972
    mercator said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm astonished to learn that Vance was probably lying about something else. And that the MSM has yet to check his numbers.

    Thread:

    Far-right movements have been using Springfield, Ohio as a propaganda tool since early 2023.

    There aren’t 20,000 Haitian immigrants there
    in fact, there are barely 5,000 in the entire state.


    The level of cognitive dissonance required for this narrative is staggering...

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808909452001532

    As for those 'swamped' (why is that always the verb of choice ?) local services.

    Annual head count for Springfield City School District on those files -

    2024: 7,415
    2023: 7,227
    2022: 7,107
    2021: 7,099
    2020: 7,716
    2019: 7,551
    2018: 7,661
    2017: 7,759..

    https://x.com/ellim992/status/1834808913696637126

    National media has been broadcasting Trump and Vance's shit for days, and not bothered to do some simple journalism.

    AFAIK, Vance has never visited Springfield.

    These lower numbers are disputed.
    One theory is 20,000 is right for all immigrants not just Haitians (though I don't see how this is not reflected in school stats)
    The 15,000-20,000 number came from a letter sent from the city manager of Springfield to the two Ohio Senators, asking for federal assistance in housing.

    https://x.com/milalovesjoe/status/1833972318923583761

    He says that the numbers have risen to 15-20k in the last three years, but doesn’t necessarily specify what they were before.

    I suspect the truth is in the middle somewhere.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,405

    Betfair might be unmoved - but it hasn't dtopped Trump sending out a fundraiser on the back of it.

    Maybe he thinks the next assassin will succeed - and end his grifting opportunities.

    Shows that Trump has taken the dangerous option though - playing golf rather than meeting his adoring supporters.

    It must play on one's mental health this.

    If the worst did happen Vance would fly in, and Harris would significantly shorten, even if Betfair and other suspended the markets for a while so a £5 on him might be an idea.

    Also covers a complete breakdown by Trump and a belated withdrawal due to a "conspiracy" or a "rigged race" which, although unlikely, isn't impossible.
    Vance at 210, Walz at 530 are both results any punter should be on the right side of.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    MattW said:

    FPT, for @mercator

    mercator said:

    MattW said:

    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    ‘I’m selling 35 of my 65 rental homes – this is only the beginning under Labour’

    For many fed-up landlords, the Renters’ Rights Bill is the final straw


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/selling-35-rental-homes-labour-not-only-one/

    Sounds like a nice CGT windfall for Reeves. Winners all round!
    Nah, he will buy the First Lady some fancy knickers and an exemption applying to his case will coincidentally crop up in the budget. You have a lot to learn about life in a banana republic.
    Appearance of corruption was Robert Jenrick I think.

    In personal communication with Richard Desmond re: a planning decision, then used his Housing Minister position to approve the Planning Permission on Westferry, which would have helped Desmond avoid £45m in tax - payable to Tower Hamlets if it had been approved one day later.

    Then 2 weeks later accepted a donation from Desmond of £12k.

    I'd be interested to know the outcome re whether the action was lawful given the communication.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

    It was unlawful. Essentially Jenrick abused his authority and displayed "apparent bias".

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/18/westferry-property-scheme-ditched-after-minister-rejects-appeal-robert-jenrick-richard-desmond

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/25/tory-donor-richard-desmond-revives-controversial-east-london-housing-development

    If they elect him, they deserve everything they get.
    For sure Jenrick is horrific. But "less corrupt than Robert Jenrick" doesn't sell a PM to me any more than "less paedophilic than Jimmy Savile" sells a babysitter.
    That comparison seems to me only to have meaning if you can show in some way that the current PM is in some way corrupt, so that is the choice to be made. Otherwise it is rhetoric.

    Can you demonstrate that?

    I regard gifts to politicians, of clothes or wallpaper, as corruption. If this were a local businessman bunging a local councillor I would hope and expect the pair would go to prison.
  • mercator said:

    MattW said:

    FPT, for @mercator

    mercator said:

    MattW said:

    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    ‘I’m selling 35 of my 65 rental homes – this is only the beginning under Labour’

    For many fed-up landlords, the Renters’ Rights Bill is the final straw


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/selling-35-rental-homes-labour-not-only-one/

    Sounds like a nice CGT windfall for Reeves. Winners all round!
    Nah, he will buy the First Lady some fancy knickers and an exemption applying to his case will coincidentally crop up in the budget. You have a lot to learn about life in a banana republic.
    Appearance of corruption was Robert Jenrick I think.

    In personal communication with Richard Desmond re: a planning decision, then used his Housing Minister position to approve the Planning Permission on Westferry, which would have helped Desmond avoid £45m in tax - payable to Tower Hamlets if it had been approved one day later.

    Then 2 weeks later accepted a donation from Desmond of £12k.

    I'd be interested to know the outcome re whether the action was lawful given the communication.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

    It was unlawful. Essentially Jenrick abused his authority and displayed "apparent bias".

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/18/westferry-property-scheme-ditched-after-minister-rejects-appeal-robert-jenrick-richard-desmond

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/25/tory-donor-richard-desmond-revives-controversial-east-london-housing-development

    If they elect him, they deserve everything they get.
    For sure Jenrick is horrific. But "less corrupt than Robert Jenrick" doesn't sell a PM to me any more than "less paedophilic than Jimmy Savile" sells a babysitter.
    That comparison seems to me only to have meaning if you can show in some way that the current PM is in some way corrupt, so that is the choice to be made. Otherwise it is rhetoric.

    Can you demonstrate that?

    I regard gifts to politicians, of clothes or wallpaper, as corruption. If this were a local businessman bunging a local councillor I would hope and expect the pair would go to prison.
    There is a condescending arrogance from Labour that beggars belief. Yes, we know the Tories are openly corrupt. But that doesn’t give Labour license to do the same. Yet they say “we aren’t the Tories” as if that is good enough. It isn’t. Not if they’re also grifting.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    They can urge what they want but it's up to Biden and the gang at Foggy Bottom, not SKS.
    European (including UK) reliance on US infrastructure for essential national security is something that should be concentrating minds across the continent - and indeed, should have been for the last decade, at least.

    It should be clear that Europe cannot rely even on Democrat administrations to hold the line, never mind Republican ones. And with the US understandably increasingly concerned about Eastern Asia and the Pacific, that's not entirely unreasonable. Europe would need to up its self-reliance even without the outbreak of Trumpite insanity within the Republicans.

    But the extent of European reliance on US satellite and intelligence data, and military hardware (the two often being interlinked) should be unacceptable. It's an obvious Trump power lever, for one thing; one he will be willing to pull for his own ends if he actually understands its effectiveness (which is merely a matter of his own and his team's curiosity).

    Obviously, the remedy to that will be extremely expensive and means replicating many of the US systems, including manufacturing. It also means the diplomatic difficulty of telling the US that Europe doesn't trust it. It also means military and political co-operation across Europe that will be difficult in current circumstances. None of those are reasons for not doing it, other than to craven politicians who prefer burying their heads in the sand to protecting their countries. I hope, behind the scenes, it's already happening.
    To replicate Starshield/starlink looks like lots of tens of billions of quid. The control Musk and Trump are going to have over the world if things go wrong in November is frightening even if you consider both of them sane.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    They can urge what they want but it's up to Biden and the gang at Foggy Bottom, not SKS.
    European (including UK) reliance on US infrastructure for essential national security is something that should be concentrating minds across the continent - and indeed, should have been for the last decade, at least.

    It should be clear that Europe cannot rely even on Democrat administrations to hold the line, never mind Republican ones. And with the US understandably increasingly concerned about Eastern Asia and the Pacific, that's not entirely unreasonable. Europe would need to up its self-reliance even without the outbreak of Trumpite insanity within the Republicans.

    But the extent of European reliance on US satellite and intelligence data, and military hardware (the two often being interlinked) should be unacceptable. It's an obvious Trump power lever, for one thing; one he will be willing to pull for his own ends if he actually understands its effectiveness (which is merely a matter of his own and his team's curiosity).

    Obviously, the remedy to that will be extremely expensive and means replicating many of the US systems, including manufacturing. It also means the diplomatic difficulty of telling the US that Europe doesn't trust it. It also means military and political co-operation across Europe that will be difficult in current circumstances. None
    of those are reasons for not doing it, other than to craven politicians who prefer burying
    their heads in the sand to protecting their
    countries. I hope, behind the scenes, it's
    already happening.
    That’s the whole point of Galelio.

    Unfortunately the stupid fuckwits in the EU Commission decided to make a political point by excluding the UK rather than actually think about security holistically

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,945
    Mr. eek, that was certainly an ironic twist. For this season, I think Piastri may play the team game provided it's not excessive (lap 1, give up a place type stuff). But he'll probably be not doing the same next year when they both start from zero. Winning so well was indicative of his ability, and I think Webber (his manager) is acutely aware of the risk of becoming a de facto number two driver.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    mercator said:

    MattW said:

    FPT, for @mercator

    mercator said:

    MattW said:

    mercator said:

    Foxy said:

    ‘I’m selling 35 of my 65 rental homes – this is only the beginning under Labour’

    For many fed-up landlords, the Renters’ Rights Bill is the final straw


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/selling-35-rental-homes-labour-not-only-one/

    Sounds like a nice CGT windfall for Reeves. Winners all round!
    Nah, he will buy the First Lady some fancy knickers and an exemption applying to his case will coincidentally crop up in the budget. You have a lot to learn about life in a banana republic.
    Appearance of corruption was Robert Jenrick I think.

    In personal communication with Richard Desmond re: a planning decision, then used his Housing Minister position to approve the Planning Permission on Westferry, which would have helped Desmond avoid £45m in tax - payable to Tower Hamlets if it had been approved one day later.

    Then 2 weeks later accepted a donation from Desmond of £12k.

    I'd be interested to know the outcome re whether the action was lawful given the communication.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

    It was unlawful. Essentially Jenrick abused his authority and displayed "apparent bias".

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/18/westferry-property-scheme-ditched-after-minister-rejects-appeal-robert-jenrick-richard-desmond

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/nov/25/tory-donor-richard-desmond-revives-controversial-east-london-housing-development

    If they elect him, they deserve everything they get.
    For sure Jenrick is horrific. But "less corrupt than Robert Jenrick" doesn't sell a PM to me any more than "less paedophilic than Jimmy Savile" sells a babysitter.
    That comparison seems to me only to have meaning if you can show in some way that the current PM is in some way corrupt, so that is the choice to be made. Otherwise it is rhetoric.

    Can you demonstrate that?

    I regard gifts to politicians, of clothes or wallpaper, as corruption. If this were a local businessman bunging a local councillor I
    would hope and expect the pair would go to prison.
    It’s a donation, not a “gift” and should be treated as such. There’s an argument that personal donations shouldn’t be permitted, of course
  • Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.

    They fucked it when they started boosting the replies of people who paid. This wrecks everything because making a feed good is all about trimming out the people who are desperate for attention. Even following people who aren't doing that doesn't work, because the replies were always an essential part of the experience, and now they're immediately overwhelmed by the fee-paying drama queens.

    Use BlueSky, it's fabulous.
    Twitter still works if you set up lists. I have one for UK Medicine and another for PB and Polling. This function has not yet been ruined, and is quite good for focused areas that you want to follow without being spammed by conspiracy loons and trolls.
    First I've heard of TwiX lists and now I have two, so thanks.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,433
    mercator said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    They can urge what they want but it's up to Biden and the gang at Foggy Bottom, not SKS.
    European (including UK) reliance on US infrastructure for essential national security is something that should be concentrating minds across the continent - and indeed, should have been for the last decade, at least.

    It should be clear that Europe cannot rely even on Democrat administrations to hold the line, never mind Republican ones. And with the US understandably increasingly concerned about Eastern Asia and the Pacific, that's not entirely unreasonable. Europe would need to up its self-reliance even without the outbreak of Trumpite insanity within the Republicans.

    But the extent of European reliance on US satellite and intelligence data, and military hardware (the two often being interlinked) should be unacceptable. It's an obvious Trump power lever, for one thing; one he will be willing to pull for his own ends if he actually understands its effectiveness (which is merely a matter of his own and his team's curiosity).

    Obviously, the remedy to that will be extremely expensive and means replicating many of the US systems, including manufacturing. It also means the diplomatic difficulty of telling the US that Europe doesn't trust it. It also means military and political co-operation across Europe that will be difficult in current circumstances. None of those are reasons for not doing it, other than to craven politicians who prefer burying their heads in the sand to protecting their countries. I hope, behind the scenes, it's already happening.
    To replicate Starshield/starlink looks like lots of tens of billions of quid. The control Musk and Trump are going to have over the world if things go wrong in November is frightening even if you consider both of them sane.
    I have been a massive space fan for decades. I loved SpaceX before many of the 'fans' had ever heard of them.

    Now, I don't care for them. Not because they've made what they do 'boring' - which is genuinely a brilliantly tremendous achievement, but because supporting SpaceX under Musk's leadership is like supporting Drax Industries under Hugo Drax.

    Musk is a bigger threat to democracy and the US than even Trump.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,972

    Mr. eek, that was certainly an ironic twist. For this season, I think Piastri may play the team game provided it's not excessive (lap 1, give up a place type stuff). But he'll probably be not doing the same next year when they both start from zero. Winning so well was indicative of his ability, and I think Webber (his manager) is acutely aware of the risk of becoming a de facto number two driver.

    Oscar marked himself out as a future world champion with that drive yesterday. Brilliant both in attacking and defending for the whole race. Very well deserved win.

    This season he might end up facing team orders, but only if they’re on the same piece of track. Lando won’t be getting the benefit of them if he keeps going out in Q1.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited September 16

    Mr. eek, that was certainly an ironic twist. For this season, I think Piastri may play the team game provided it's not excessive (lap 1, give up a place type stuff). But he'll probably be not doing the same next year when they both start from zero. Winning so well was indicative of his ability, and I think Webber (his manager) is acutely aware of the risk of becoming a de facto number two driver.

    Oh I was talking about this season where I think Norris is only favoured because McLaren really want to ensure Max doesn't win the world championship.

    What is remarkable about this weekend is that on Friday I thought Norris had screwed up, on Saturday it looked like he had really screwed up yet by Sunday night I thought Norris is now in a better position than he was on Thursday when the orders were announced.

    Next season you will have 2 drivers in a team very likely to win the 2025 construction championship that puts a different prospective on it - they will be racing for every point even if it means neither wins the driver's championship.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,720
    edited September 16
    Selebian said:

    #StagedAssassinationAttempt

    has 15K posts already.

    Nah, that would have been a shot taken, trump batting the bullet away with a nine iron* and then taking out the assailant with a wedge* before the secret service reacted. Americans love an action hero, after all :smiley:

    *I know nothing of golf, which might be obvious from my use of these terms

    If you are going to take a swing at someone a wedge is indeed what you want. A long iron lacks maneuverability and the leading edge is blunt. A sand wedge usually has a round base and may not do as much damage although some have a bit more weight which may be advantageous.

    I think the rumour was that Elin Nordegren used a 9-iron on Tiger Woods' car, which is the next best choice.


    Trump being a cheat at golf was the first sign that he was a seriously wrong 'un. See: Goldfinger.
  • Nigelb said:

    Might this achieve some sort of national consensus ?
    If so, this government won't have been a total failure.

    ‘The moment has come’: pro-building Labour yimbys are set to raise the roof
    Proponents of more homes, turbines and infrastructure – even on the green belt – prepare for rally at party conference
    Fewer than one in five UK voters are ‘hard nimbys’, finds survey
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/15/the-moment-has-come-pro-building-labour-yimbys-are-set-to-raise-the-roof

    The problem is that the minority are very vocal and determined. And rapidly discover ways to slow things down in The Process.
    The question is whether The Process was the real problem, or a convenient scapegoat.

    One change that the 2024 Geneal Election made manifest was a generational shift in who is in charge. For a very very long time, the (broadly defined) baby boomers have been the electorate that mattered- as they went, so went the nation. July was roughly the first time that they haven't got their (collective) way. Hence some of the howling as a bit of the austerity that they have supported for others (roughly speaking, their parents and their children) has landed on them.

    One other consequence of that is that political power has shifted from a generation who oppose further development and further change in society to a generation who support them. Even if the written rules and Process don't change, there's a decent opportunity for their operation to change. I think we've seen a bit of that already with renewable energy projects fairly quickly liberated from the bottom of Ed M's intray.

    (In the wisdom of Yes, Minister, you don't find a judge who will sucumb to pressure, you find one who doesn't need any pressure applied at all.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,268
    Sounds like Thierry Breton has basically been sacked by Ursula von der Leyen.

    https://x.com/thierrybreton/status/1835565206639972734
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    Sometimes TwiX is better than the news websites for new stories. Not today: there’s nothing on the Trump assassination attempt that isn’t conspiracist and/or partisan drivel. BBC website doing best on this story.

    They fucked it when they started boosting the replies of people who paid. This wrecks everything because making a feed good is all about trimming out the people who are desperate for attention. Even following people who aren't doing that doesn't work, because the replies were always an essential part of the experience, and now they're immediately overwhelmed by the fee-paying drama queens.

    Use BlueSky, it's fabulous.
    Twitter still works if you set up lists. I have one for UK Medicine and another for PB and Polling. This function has not yet been ruined, and is quite good for focused areas that you want to follow without being spammed by conspiracy loons and trolls.
    First I've heard of TwiX lists and now I have two, so thanks.
    You can also see what lists you have been put on by others. This is how far-right trolls orchestrate mass abuse/death threats. I was on one followed by a few thousand of them.
  • mercator said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    Meanwhile LD leader Sir Ed Davey joins former Conservative PM Boris Johnson and Defence Secretaries Ben Wallace and Grant Shapps in urging Starmer, Biden and other NATO leaders to allow Ukraine to send Storm Shadow missiles into Russia

    "Ed Davey joins calls to let Ukraine use Storm Shadow missiles in Russia | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-storm-shadow-b2613244.html

    They can urge what they want but it's up to Biden and the gang at Foggy Bottom, not SKS.
    European (including UK) reliance on US infrastructure for essential national security is something that should be concentrating minds across the continent - and indeed, should have been for the last decade, at least.

    It should be clear that Europe cannot rely even on Democrat administrations to hold the line, never mind Republican ones. And with the US understandably increasingly concerned about Eastern Asia and the Pacific, that's not entirely unreasonable. Europe would need to up its self-reliance even without the outbreak of Trumpite insanity within the Republicans.

    But the extent of European reliance on US satellite and intelligence data, and military hardware (the two often being interlinked) should be unacceptable. It's an obvious Trump power lever, for one thing; one he will be willing to pull for his own ends if he actually understands its effectiveness (which is merely a matter of his own and his team's curiosity).

    Obviously, the remedy to that will be extremely expensive and means replicating many of the US systems, including manufacturing. It also means the diplomatic difficulty of telling the US that Europe doesn't trust it. It also means military and political co-operation across Europe that will be difficult in current circumstances. None of those are reasons for not doing it, other than to craven politicians who prefer burying their heads in the sand to protecting their countries. I hope, behind the scenes, it's already happening.
    To replicate Starshield/starlink looks like lots of tens of billions of quid. The control Musk and Trump are going to have over the world if things go wrong in November is frightening even if you consider both of them sane.
    I have been a massive space fan for decades. I loved SpaceX before many of the 'fans' had ever heard of them.

    Now, I don't care for them. Not because they've made what they do 'boring' - which is genuinely a brilliantly tremendous achievement, but because supporting SpaceX under Musk's leadership is like supporting Drax Industries under Hugo Drax.

    Musk is a bigger threat to democracy and the US than even Trump.
    Oh that’s brilliant. Musk as Hugo Drax. Sending out his constellation of satellites with his private space launching business to bring death / the internet to the globe.

    Musk is an anus. Increasingly. But I love Tesla. Love Space X. Love Starlink. Making it all about him is absolutely what he would like. Let’s not do so.
This discussion has been closed.