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What’s this betting market going to look like on Wednesday evening? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,212
edited September 29 in General
imageWhat’s this betting market going to look like on Wednesday evening? – politicalbetting.com

MPs start voting in round one on Wednesday, my expectation is that Mel Stride will be the first to be knocked out then followed by Dame Priti Patel. Then voting is paused until after the last four hold a beauty parade at conference.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,978
    Patel and Stride out. Tugenhat and Jenrick up. Badenoch and cleverly down.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,882
    edited September 2
    2nd.

    Like Donald Trump, the adjudicated sex pest, who is ... going down.

    Bloody dethreaded, twice - I knew it.

    On topic, it's fun that the Tories model their leadership contest on a Balloon Debate.
  • Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.
  • The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,114

    I have no idea frankly who is going to win this.

    I think they would be better going for Cleverly who strikes me would make a solid LOTO who could steady the tory ship and implement party reforms.

    I think Tugenhadt makes the final 2, then loses to Jenrick or Badenoch in the members vote.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,421

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Yes, the protests in Israel are significant. Bibi is not popular and is stretching out the war to stay in power and avoid trial.

    However, I would point out that you can join a trade union in Lebanon.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    Fpt

    FF43 said:

    It appears that in the present turbulent times the Monarchy is about the only thing that is guaranteed to survive.

    Chatting with my son who lives in Berlin. The rise of the so called far right is staggering. The AFD make Reform seem like a centrist party. The BSW would be banned in the UK but are seen as the reasonable right. As with France the biggest shift is the young white men. As with France the Government will try to continue to govern but without real authority. Crack downs such as in the UK will just make martyrs and accelerate the trend. The curtain is truly coming down across Europe.

    AFD are undisguised fascists, not the "sensible right" as provocatively posited on the previous thread.

    Mild Republican here but take your point, now's not the time to mess with this stuff
    Historically Fascists have not being averse to co-opting monarchies into their new world orders. Eddy Windsor would have been well up for it.
    Which is why he was exited stage left when the opportunity arose
    Stage right.
    I think his Hitler saluting days were mostly after his abdication weren’t they? I believe being in thrall to the Singapore Grip was the main reason for him beings exited.
    His relationship with Wallis Simpson was the excuse not the motivating force. His Nazi tendencies were only public after he abdicated but were well known by the government.
  • Foxy said:

    I have no idea frankly who is going to win this.

    I think they would be better going for Cleverly who strikes me would make a solid LOTO who could steady the tory ship and implement party reforms.

    I think Tugenhadt makes the final 2, then loses to Jenrick or Badenoch in the members vote.
    No fun! We need JENRICK (for it is he, the makes-kids-cry amoeba) vs BadEnoch.

    We get to witness an array of degenerate inadequates prostrate themselves before the Tory membership (or is that the other way round?), and then hopefully the least electable two make it to the membership ballot, where they then go out offering more and more unelectable policies to win the vote.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    edited September 2

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    Fpt

    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Wasn't the issue that schools rated good or outstanding had reduced inspection schedules, so a drop from Outstanding to Inadequate was possible in one jump? Hiring more inspectors and going back to regular inspections would result in smoother, less embarassing downgrades?

    That was an issue but not the important one. The important one was that any school rated ‘inadequate’ on safeguarding had to, by law, be placed in an academy chain.

    So at Caversham some errors in the paperwork - which should not have been there but were not serious and would have taken maybe a day to correct - gave an excuse for the school to be merged into a local academy chain which would have meant the SLT were all sacked. This is something they had been resisting for a while and this was intended to be used an excuse to get past their resistance. (It also happened at a school in Leeds about a year before.)

    Interestingly from what I hear, although he shouldn’t be doing inspections for other reasons I can’t discuss Alan Derry does *not* appear to have recommended a 4 at Caversham. He was overruled by the centre.

    Ruth Perry’s suicide meant this plan was hurriedly abandoned and the school - having made almost no changes - was reinspected and graded ‘good.’

    That tells me all I need to know about what happened and why, and is pretty disgusting, particularly when compounded by the perjury of senior Ofsted figures at the inquest, after which the DfE finally admitted despite earlier denials that it has been controlling and using Ofsted for years.

    That may be eliminated with this new system, but the damage done to Ofsted’s reputation is probably irreversible.
    Something seems to have gone wrong at Caversham so it probably isn't a good example to use, but I find it strange that Ofsted reports seem to come as a surprise. Shouldn't the HT already know they are running a failing school, and be doing something about it?
    To find out how a (small) school is doing you need something to compare yourself against and with the introduction of more chains that’s got far harder.

    A single form primary school may look lovely but it’s hard to gauge how it’s doing when you have nothing to compare against
  • The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    Cleverley strikes me as the only one of the 6 with a prayer of making any progress against Labour. He doesn't make normal's skin crawl as badly as say JENRICK does, he seems to have a brain on him which connects with reality somewhere. Even his "cos it's a SHITHOLE" retort was quite funny albeit unwise politically.

    Going off the 6 declared candidates he (gut political instinct) is the best weapon the Tories could deploy at this stage in the electoral cycle. So he'll almost certainly lose.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236

    I have no idea frankly who is going to win this.

    I think they would be better going for Cleverly who strikes me would make a solid LOTO who could steady the tory ship and implement party reforms.

    All the candidates are deeply flawed but the Conservatives go for Jenrick it will be because they have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,946
    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    F1; got to love Stroll getting 1s behind Ocon, ahead of Gasly, Tsunoda out, the Canadian's much faster, and then he pits. ...

    And, just for this thread: I've shifted my view. Reckon Norris is now title favourite due to Red Bull struggling so much. Still very close.

    Also going to consider if it's worth backing Ferrari for the title (probably not, but worth checking).
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited September 2

    FPT: Good morning, everyone.

    F1; got to love Stroll getting 1s behind Ocon, ahead of Gasly, Tsunoda out, the Canadian's much faster, and then he pits. ...

    And, just for this thread: I've shifted my view. Reckon Norris is now title favourite due to Red Bull struggling so much. Still very close.

    Also going to consider if it's worth backing Ferrari for the title (probably not, but worth checking).

    I’m not so sure - Pistori screwed things up yesterday by over taking Norris - if he hadn’t and focused on protecting Norris it would have been a Mclaren 1/2 with LeClerc 3rd

    Unless McLaren bring in team orders it’s going to be McLaren for the constructors but Max for the drivers title
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,882

    The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    Cleverley strikes me as the only one of the 6 with a prayer of making any progress against Labour. He doesn't make normal's skin crawl as badly as say JENRICK does, he seems to have a brain on him which connects with reality somewhere. Even his "cos it's a SHITHOLE" retort was quite funny albeit unwise politically.

    Going off the 6 declared candidates he (gut political instinct) is the best weapon the Tories could deploy at this stage in the electoral cycle. So he'll almost certainly lose.
    normal's / normals' ? :smile:
  • Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,946
    Mr. eek, currently writing something on the race, with the following:

    "However, this ended up costing the team points overall and Norris in particular. With the title so close, most teams would be laying down the law to maximise the chances of their lead driver."

    I think if the pass had been more efficient it might still have worked out, but he lost Norris 2nd to Leclerc as well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government
  • The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    Cleverley strikes me as the only one of the 6 with a prayer of making any progress against Labour. He doesn't make normal's skin crawl as badly as say JENRICK does, he seems to have a brain on him which connects with reality somewhere. Even his "cos it's a SHITHOLE" retort was quite funny albeit unwise politically.

    Going off the 6 declared candidates he (gut political instinct) is the best weapon the Tories could deploy at this stage in the electoral cycle. So he'll almost certainly lose.
    The position of LotO is so different to being a minister (you can talk but that's all you can do, you don't make the news- the news makes you, you have to fight and grovel for attention) that it's hard to tell at this point who will succeed in the role.

    Cleverly seems to have the right temperament to cope with the absurdity, but who knows? Maybe Jenrick is hollow enough to reinvent himself for whoever is is audience of the moment. Worked for Boris, after all.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,125
    edited September 2
    FPT
    Foxy said:

    On topic, the time we become a Republic is when a truly useless heir to the throne takes over. It's a lottery, and only a matter of time before another Prince Andrew is first born. It isn't 1688 where we import a distant relative from the Netherlands.

    A Monarchy kept in power via apathy and doing nothing remotely interesting is inherently an unstable genetic losing bet.

    Rubbish. Our "unstable" Monarchy has lasted for more than 350 years without interruption while the "stable" French have had, just since 1789, 16 constitutions including five republics, four monarchies and a dictatorship. It has survived mad kings, lost wars, political crises, domestic scandals and even Megan Markle and is still about the most popular national institution we have.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    I would have thought it’s best for Hamas to keep hostages alive . It doesn’t make much sense to kill them when they’re being used for leverage in any deal .
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,882
    edited September 2
    FPT because I want to know from @BlancheLivermore .

    carnforth said:

    Am I the only, actual working class person who posts here?

    With parents who summer at Sandbanks?
    I work 55-60 hours a week 46 weeks a year to get somewhere near average wage

    My Dad gives me wine for walking his dog on my days off

    My mum aways wants to feed me, I let her do it on Sundays

    They do go to Sandbanks, but that doesn't stop me being a fucking-hard-working class postie

    Does Sandbanks still have it's self-service dogwash machine in place? IIRC it was the original.

    I don't think it does blow-dry, or your dog could come out looking like a pompom.

    https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/14385922.dog-owners-joy-at-new-dog-washing-machine-in-sandbanks/

    (Update: apparently it does, or did, have a blow-dry setting.)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,236

    The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    Cleverley strikes me as the only one of the 6 with a prayer of making any progress against Labour. He doesn't make normal's skin crawl as badly as say JENRICK does, he seems to have a brain on him which connects with reality somewhere. Even his "cos it's a SHITHOLE" retort was quite funny albeit unwise politically.

    Going off the 6 declared candidates he (gut political instinct) is the best weapon the Tories could deploy at this stage in the electoral cycle. So he'll almost certainly lose.
    The position of LotO is so different to being a minister (you can talk but that's all you can do, you don't make the news- the news makes you, you have to fight and grovel for attention) that it's hard to tell at this point who will succeed in the role.

    Cleverly seems to have the right temperament to cope with the absurdity, but who knows? Maybe Jenrick is hollow enough to reinvent himself for whoever is is audience of the moment. Worked for Boris, after all.
    Cleverly would be the keep calm and carry on candidate. He doesn't appear to have a single original idea, nor to be interested in stealing other people's. But simply waiting for events to take their course isn't maybe the worst strategy for the Conservatives, in which case Cleverly's your man.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    To show how bad the Tory candidates are for thinking Cleverly wishes to abolish Stamp Duty to help first time buyers.

    That's First time buyers who 99% of the time are not subject to Stamp Duty due to the first time buyer allowance....

    The secondary question of where does the money come from doesn't matter as he's just made this election enough one where the race is to reduce tax as much as possible...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Is there no subject on which our resident neo-nazi-lover is unwilling to ignorantly rant about?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Is there no subject on which our resident neo-nazi-lover is unwilling to ignorantly rant about?
    Apparently after catgate he’ll be moving on to eviscerating gerbil owners !
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,974
    eek said:

    To show how bad the Tory candidates are for thinking Cleverly wishes to abolish Stamp Duty to help first time buyers.

    That's First time buyers who 99% of the time are not subject to Stamp Duty due to the first time buyer allowance....

    The secondary question of where does the money come from doesn't matter as he's just made this election enough one where the race is to reduce tax as much as possible...

    First time buyers have to buy from someone, and usually that someone is buying elsewhere for a non-first time...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,888
    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    And Leon is a bad parody of a right wing poster.

    Stick a fork in me, I'm done!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    @MrHarryCole

    Punchy start to the new school term: Jenrick offering Pol Eds Buck’s Fizz or a Bloody Mary for breakfast.

    Long way from David Cameron’s smoothies in 2005.

    Could be a long old day. 😂
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,767

    The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    The Tory electorate divides between 'Wets' and 'Drys', to use a time-honoured classification.
    The Wets support Cleverly and/or Tugendhat who must both get through to the members' vote for either to stand a chance. The market puts the probability of that at ~ ⅓ .
    The Drys support Badenoch and/or Jenrick. The market gives a ⅔ probability that at least one of them gets through to the members' vote.

    To prevail, the Wets must comprise more than ⅔ of Tory MPs, and their support for the weaker of Cleverly or Tugendhat must exceed that of the Drys for the stronger of Badenoch or Jenrick.

    Tory MPs will have to do dynamic coalition building throughout the electoral process. They used to be called the world's most sophisticated electorate, but that is a mischaracterisation. Rather their chosen electoral process requires them to play a multistage game before the members, whose preferences are well known, get to have a say.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,942
    eek said:

    To show how bad the Tory candidates are for thinking Cleverly wishes to abolish Stamp Duty to help first time buyers.

    That's First time buyers who 99% of the time are not subject to Stamp Duty due to the first time buyer allowance....

    The secondary question of where does the money come from doesn't matter as he's just made this election enough one where the race is to reduce tax as much as possible...

    No, that's a good idea. We need to make it easier for people to move house and use the stock more efficiently.

    Replace stamp duty (and equivalent in Scotland) and replace with higher council tax on larger properties. Downsizing bonanza, opening up those spare bedrooms for young families.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.



  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    MattW said:

    FPT: Good morning everyone.

    An acquaintance made the Telegraph this morning, with what is actually a decent story of how supermarkets (M&S here) don't think or consult before doing their interventions to make life greener.

    M&S threatened with legal action over eco-fridges
    Supermarket aims to reduce energy bills by up to a third with new doors that wheelchair user claims are too high for her to reach

    https://archive.ph/fYdg0

    M&S putting doors on food cabinets and low shelves in front that prevent wheelchair users doing their shopping. Here's Flick's twitter thread from June, which M&S have so far not listened to, and my photo quota. Staff can't help when there are no floor staff. She is now going legal, which I admire as it is a tough process on your own.

    Disabled by @marksandspencer yet again ‼️ Now I can no longer shop independently because the chiller cabinet doors pull toward you & these ridiculous racks at the base get caught on wheels & prevent you getting close enough to reach handles let alone food inside
    https://x.com/flickhwilliams/status/1797533326271775015

    Others get it right; so can M&S. 30 years after this stuff became a legal requirement, this is not good enough. There's this thing called the Purple Pound they need to remember.

    From my skeptical view I think the Telegrunt is perhaps interested in trying to feed a "green practices" vs "disabled people" narrative. In reality it's about M&S not consulting properly, and only taking notice once a legal action comes in - just like many organisations still stuck in the stone age. As always, it's really simple, easy stuff to get right.


    The reason they are not responsive is that a whole team of people in M&S management will have been responsible for commissioning the new design.

    Its failure - possibly legally as well - is a disaster for the career of The Glorious Leader of The Team.

    Obviously, sticking your head in the sand and hoping that if you can’t see the problem, the problem can’t see you, is the correct approach.

    As to why it happened - Energy Efficiency is fashionable. Disability access less so. Expecting a generalist manager to understand two domains of specific knowledge at once would be a human rights violation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Is there no subject on which our resident neo-nazi-lover is unwilling to ignorantly rant about?
    “Is there no beginning to his knowledge, on anything?”
  • FF43 said:

    The Conservative leadership race is too complicated for me but I'm wary that in the absence of genuine information, the betting and polling might be leading each other a merry dance.

    Cleverley strikes me as the only one of the 6 with a prayer of making any progress against Labour. He doesn't make normal's skin crawl as badly as say JENRICK does, he seems to have a brain on him which connects with reality somewhere. Even his "cos it's a SHITHOLE" retort was quite funny albeit unwise politically.

    Going off the 6 declared candidates he (gut political instinct) is the best weapon the Tories could deploy at this stage in the electoral cycle. So he'll almost certainly lose.
    The position of LotO is so different to being a minister (you can talk but that's all you can do, you don't make the news- the news makes you, you have to fight and grovel for attention) that it's hard to tell at this point who will succeed in the role.

    Cleverly seems to have the right temperament to cope with the absurdity, but who knows? Maybe Jenrick is hollow enough to reinvent himself for whoever is is audience of the moment. Worked for Boris, after all.
    Cleverly would be the keep calm and carry on candidate. He doesn't appear to have a single original idea, nor to be interested in stealing other people's. But simply waiting for events to take their course isn't maybe the worst strategy for the Conservatives, in which case Cleverly's your man.
    At this point in the cycle, political ideas don't really matter- the best case scenario is that Conservatives won't be enacting any political ideas until 2029. (Except in Tees Valley.)

    What probably does matter is the shape of the party in the country. In many places, it's a fairly mouldy husk, which is why a smallish number of Lib Dems can beat them on the ground.

    I know what needs to be done- attract younger, less strange, active activists. People who can get to doorsteps independently and not put voters off when they do. But I haven't got the faintest idea how. Only one of the reasons I'm not running for Conservative leader.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,082
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
    I can’t see how planned inspections, at a single point in time, show anything other than a very posed portrait of a school.

    Any real measure would surely require spending more time at the school, sitting in lessons etc, Shirley?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,974
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
    The previous government decided (and I doubt the current one actually disagrees) that failing in safeguarding should mean failing overall. But on the other hand, the union seems to think that schools should never be marked as failing (and, quite possible, not inspected at all).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443
    nico679 said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    I would have thought it’s best for Hamas to keep hostages alive . It doesn’t make much sense to kill them when they’re being used
    for leverage in any deal .
    If they are on the point of being rescued and they can’t be moved (as I understand was the case here) then the calculus changes.

    I don’t know if it was Hamas or another group (they have parcelled out the hostages) but you are dealing with individuals who are happy to deliberate rape, torture, desecrate and murder innocent civilians.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited September 2
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Is there no subject on which our resident neo-nazi-lover is unwilling to ignorantly rant about?
    I’m not the one that’s just elected neo Nazis. It’s you. The Germans. You. @kamski

    You just elected neo Nazis
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,974

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
    This slightly misses the point that if Hamas had never kidnapped them in the first place, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
  • Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
  • Driver said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
    This slightly misses the point that if Hamas had never kidnapped them in the first place, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
    Yes but they were, and what many Israelis are now questioning is what happened after that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    The Tara River Canyon is one of the most beautiful places in Europe. And I’ve been all over Europe. Astonishingly lovely

    And profoundly spectacular. Third deepest in the world

    How many of us on here have even heard of it??! Not me, and I’ve been all over the world AND I do this for a half of my living

    Wonderful that you can still find places like this. In Europe!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,857
    eek said:

    To show how bad the Tory candidates are for thinking Cleverly wishes to abolish Stamp Duty to help first time buyers.

    That's First time buyers who 99% of the time are not subject to Stamp Duty due to the first time buyer allowance....

    The secondary question of where does the money come from doesn't matter as he's just made this election enough one where the race is to reduce tax as much as possible...

    You are overlooking the fact that the Tories can have opposition policies for quite a time - mayb e the next 8+ years. So stopping the boats, net zero inward migration, balancing the books, a policeman in every street and village, 500,000 cheap houses a year, cakeist policy on the EU, free owls for pensioners and abolishing tax is all fine and easily doable for the moment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    I don't think Cleverly is up to it, much as he might be my first pick. Kemi as first black woman party leader would be fantastic but she's a bit young imo. Tugendhat from immigrant Jewish stock also I don't think quite up to it. That leaves Priti and, finally, straight white bloke Jenrick who has dead eyes.

    So put that all in a pot and stir it and who do I think will be best? I'm going Tugendhat because he has that Cameroon self-awareness and is sufficiently posh and English to not need to assuage the extremes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    But not safe, it should be noted, to be a Palestinian in the occupied territories.

    No country is solely a beacon of light.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,141
    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Is there no subject on which our resident neo-nazi-lover is unwilling to ignorantly rant about?
    I’m not the one that’s just elected neo Nazis. It’s you. The Germans. You. @kamski

    You just elected neo Nazis
    You just elected Labour who are as bad as the Nazis if you believe the more extreme outpourings of some PBers. You. @Leon.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    edited September 2

    MattW said:

    FPT: Good morning everyone.

    An acquaintance made the Telegraph this morning, with what is actually a decent story of how supermarkets (M&S here) don't think or consult before doing their interventions to make life greener.

    M&S threatened with legal action over eco-fridges
    Supermarket aims to reduce energy bills by up to a third with new doors that wheelchair user claims are too high for her to reach

    https://archive.ph/fYdg0

    M&S putting doors on food cabinets and low shelves in front that prevent wheelchair users doing their shopping. Here's Flick's twitter thread from June, which M&S have so far not listened to, and my photo quota. Staff can't help when there are no floor staff. She is now going legal, which I admire as it is a tough process on your own.

    Disabled by @marksandspencer yet again ‼️ Now I can no longer shop independently because the chiller cabinet doors pull toward you & these ridiculous racks at the base get caught on wheels & prevent you getting close enough to reach handles let alone food inside
    https://x.com/flickhwilliams/status/1797533326271775015

    Others get it right; so can M&S. 30 years after this stuff became a legal requirement, this is not good enough. There's this thing called the Purple Pound they need to remember.

    From my skeptical view I think the Telegrunt is perhaps interested in trying to feed a "green practices" vs "disabled people" narrative. In reality it's about M&S not consulting properly, and only taking notice once a legal action comes in - just like many organisations still stuck in the stone age. As always, it's really simple, easy stuff to get right.
    The reason they are not responsive is that a whole team of people in M&S management will have been responsible for commissioning the new design.

    Its failure - possibly legally as well - is a disaster for the career of The Glorious Leader of The Team.

    Obviously, sticking your head in the sand and hoping that if you can’t see the problem, the problem can’t see you, is the correct approach.

    As to why it happened - Energy Efficiency is fashionable. Disability access less so. Expecting a generalist manager to understand two domains of specific knowledge at once would be a human rights violation.

    As a full-time wheelchair user I see this sort of thing all the time (see: the near ubiquity of pedal bins in disabled loos for a semi-amusing example.) I am sure it's lack of awareness rather than a deliberate two-fingers to the disabled.

    The answer of course is to employ a group of actual disabled people to try out the new designs before rolling them out widely. I am available for such hard graft on a daily rate equvalent to 50% that of the responsible M&S Exec Director.

    (Awaits pm from M&S's CEO...)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    edited September 2
    I have no knowledge of the English Education system other than just having put my eldest daughter through it. We made sure she went to an OUTSTANDING primary and an OUTSTANDING secondary and then an OUTSTANDING sixth form

    Result? She’s just 3 got A starred A levels and now has her pick of universities

    Outstanding. The one thing the Tories did well was education. And now Labour are gonna fuck it up to please the unions
  • Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
    The previous government decided (and I doubt the current one actually disagrees) that failing in safeguarding should mean failing overall. But on the other hand, the union seems to think that schools should never be marked as failing (and, quite possible, not inspected at all).
    There's failing and failing, though. It's the difference between "this school isn't safe" and "this school is safe but not all the forms are filled in". Sort of like the Yes, Minister episode.

    Your standard Ofsted inspection is one day in a school, preceded by inspectors looking at publicly-available forms. (To the extent that some schools used to track unusual activity on their website to guess if an inspection was imminent.) Because of that, it's all more superficial than you might think, and there is a definite sense that inspectors come in with a hypothesis that they seek to confirm rather than test.

    You could do the whole thing better- inspectors starting with observations on the ground, visiting schools more often and for longer. But that would cost, and nobody has ever wanted to spend the money.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    Why are you threatened by people replying to Leon?

    He must enjoy it otherwise he wouldn't post things like his support for neo-nazi Björn Höcke.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,807
    kamski said:

    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    Why are you threatened by people replying to Leon?

    He must enjoy it otherwise he wouldn't post things like his support for neo-nazi Björn Höcke.
    Two umlouts feels excessively German.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,496
    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    You’ve very kind but to be fair I do like to provoke. Not least to liven shit up

    As I said the other day while I was away I had a few PBers privately implore me to come back “as it so boring now”

    No joke. So I see it as my job to spice things up of a morning, like a triple espresso of opinion. And if that means some more vulnerable souls get a bit triggered and caffeinated, so be it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Jenrick is likely to come top on Wednesday. I expect Tugendhat to do better than expected though and maybe Patel as well
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Er no. The school inspection system was already completely fucked up - by the school inspection system.

    Unlike some on here I do believe in having an effective inspection system that grades schools and gives parents what the information they ned to make choices. But the current OFSTED regime is not it. One word judgements belong in the Colosseum or the firing squad, not school standards.
    At the end of this Labour government English education will be considerably worse and we will likely have followed Scotland down the PISA rankings. This is all about producer interest; pleasing the teacher unions (the same guys that insisted on closing the schools for two years for covid, so they could all lie on the sofa, and now belatedly we realise this has crocked all the kids). We’re fucked
    The fruits of an expensive private education.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMIKzUAY8n4
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    kamski said:

    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    Why are you threatened by people replying to Leon?

    He must enjoy it otherwise he wouldn't post things like his support for neo-nazi Björn Höcke.
    I'm interested in peoples' reactions to him. I'm sure he enjoys triggering the simple folk on here and they duly oblige. So carry on pls.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,443

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
    You can only make peace when both sides are willing to settle.

    Hamas are not (Bibi - or at least his extreme right flank - doesn’t want to, but can probably be strong armed into a settlement).

    Do you really believe that withdrawing from Gaza and giving them self-government, for example, would result in a peaceful democratic society there?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    You’ve very kind but to be fair I do like to provoke. Not least to liven shit up

    As I said the other day while I was away I had a few PBers privately implore me to come back “as it so boring now”

    No joke. So I see it as my job to spice things up of a morning, like a triple espresso of opinion. And if that means some more vulnerable souls get a bit triggered and caffeinated, so be it
    I discussed this at length with my nephew and he said that on balance he would prefer it if you returned. Now on the topic of education and schools...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    I find Leon very entertaining. I’m glad he’s back even though we tend to disagree on almost everything.

    #JeSuisGerbil
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    HYUFD said:

    Jenrick is likely to come top on Wednesday. I expect Tugendhat to do better than expected though and maybe Patel as well

    Where's your vote going?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,442
    edited September 2
    For anyone actually interested in the background, rather than just artificially raising their blood pressure (is it some strange kink thing?), PT had @ydoethur explaining with his customary knowledge and elegance.
    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Wasn't the issue that schools rated good or outstanding had reduced inspection schedules, so a drop from Outstanding to Inadequate was possible in one jump? Hiring more inspectors and going back to regular inspections would result in smoother, less embarassing downgrades?

    That was an issue but not the important one. The important one was that any school rated ‘inadequate’ on safeguarding had to, by law, be placed in an academy chain.

    So at Caversham some errors in the paperwork - which should not have been there but were not serious and would have taken maybe a day to correct - gave an excuse for the school to be merged into a local academy chain which would have meant the SLT were all sacked. This is something they had been resisting for a while and this was intended to be used an excuse to get past their resistance. (It also happened at a school in Leeds about a year before.)

    Interestingly from what I hear, although he shouldn’t be doing inspections for other reasons I can’t discuss Alan Derry does *not* appear to have recommended a 4 at Caversham. He was overruled by the centre.

    Ruth Perry’s suicide meant this plan was hurriedly abandoned and the school - having made almost no changes - was reinspected and graded ‘good.’

    That tells me all I need to know about what happened and why, and is pretty disgusting, particularly when compounded by the perjury of senior Ofsted figures at the inquest, after which the DfE finally admitted despite earlier denials that it has been controlling and using Ofsted for years.

    That may be eliminated with this new system, but the damage done to Ofsted’s reputation is probably irreversible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    Leon said:

    I have no knowledge of the English Education system other than just having put my eldest daughter through it. We made sure she went to an OUTSTANDING primary and an OUTSTANDING secondary and then an OUTSTANDING sixth form

    Result? She’s just 3 got A starred A levels and now has her pick of universities

    Outstanding. The one thing the Tories did well was education. And now Labour are gonna fuck it up to please the unions

    Indeed, ambitious parents aren't stupid. They aren't going to send their children to a previously Inadequate or Requires Improvement rated school over a Good or Outstanding rated school just because the new Labour government has scrapped the school rating
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,974
    edited September 2

    Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
    The previous government decided (and I doubt the current one actually disagrees) that failing in safeguarding should mean failing overall. But on the other hand, the union seems to think that schools should never be marked as failing (and, quite possible, not inspected at all).
    There's failing and failing, though. It's the difference between "this school isn't safe" and "this school is safe but not all the forms are filled in". Sort of like the Yes, Minister episode.

    Your standard Ofsted inspection is one day in a school, preceded by inspectors looking at publicly-available forms. (To the extent that some schools used to track unusual activity on their website to guess if an inspection was imminent.) Because of that, it's all more superficial than you might think, and there is a definite sense that inspectors come in with a hypothesis that they seek to confirm rather than test.

    You could do the whole thing better- inspectors starting with observations on the ground, visiting schools more often and for longer. But that would cost, and nobody has ever wanted to spend the money.
    Yeah, food safety inspections are the same. Any caff owner knows that you can't get above a 2 if you don't have your forms filled in.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173
    I think that Texas Senate seat might be in play.
    "Lose Cruz"
    https://x.com/ColinAllredTX/status/1830083242386411532
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,864
    TOPPING said:

    I don't think Cleverly is up to it, much as he might be my first pick. Kemi as first black woman party leader would be fantastic but she's a bit young imo. Tugendhat from immigrant Jewish stock also I don't think quite up to it. That leaves Priti and, finally, straight white bloke Jenrick who has dead eyes.

    So put that all in a pot and stir it and who do I think will be best? I'm going Tugendhat because he has that Cameroon self-awareness and is sufficiently posh and English to not need to assuage the extremes.

    Really depends which voters the Tories want to regain. Voters lost to the LDs? Tugendhat your man. Voters lost to Labour? Probably Cleverly or Stride.

    Voters lost to Reform? Patel, Badenoch or Jenrick.

    Not yet a candidate though who can rebuild all the 2019 winning Conservative coalition Boris built
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990
    FPT
    Cookie said:

    carnforth said:

    Am I the only, actual working class person who posts here?

    With parents who summer at Sandbanks?
    I work 55-60 hours a week 46 weeks a year to get somewhere near average wage

    My Dad gives me wine for walking his dog on my days off

    My mum aways wants to feed me, I let her do it on Sundays

    They do go to Sandbanks, but that doesn't stop me being a fucking-hard-working class postie

    Not many working class people on here. Not least because posting on the site is considerably easier for those who work in offices. ISTR @twistedfirestopper3 is a firefighter - perhaps he qualifies, if that is the case?

    A postie is a working class job, but from what you've said of your background I don't think your upbringing was typically working class? But who among us is genuinely typical of our class, whatever that is? Feeling a bit of an outsider is the human condition, I think.
    Being working class isn't about working in an office in my view at least. Many working class people do. I would say working class these days is more a) I work for a living, b) If I lost my job I would struggle within a month to feed myself and family, c) I can't afford to save a deposit and buy a house because at the end of the month there is little to no money left

    Taz said:

    Am I the only, actual working class person who posts here?

    No, there are a few of us. Not many I think but certainly a few.

    I’ll never write have much in life but I’m quite happy.
    The obsession with beingʻ working class and comingbfrom a poor background to prove yourself is getting very boring. So many in the media trying to do a poor Yorkshireman to prove their worth.
    While I agree with you about the media I do think it is relevant here. The simple reason being that so many here aren't in the just about managing section of the population and they need pushing back on when they suggest things because they really don't understand how little slack those people's budgets have.

    When putting 2% on the basic rate of tax for example probably most won't feel that here, for a "jam" that could well be another meal they will be skipping at the end of the month yet its airly thrown out as a suggestion like it won't actually affect anyone

    I would suggest the definition of working class these days should be probably
    a) You rent or have a mortgage because bank of mum and dad
    b) you have little in the way of savings as you struggle to make the money last to the end of the month
    c) If you lose your job you are going to be in financial trouble within weeks
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    The current system is too blunt . Effectively a school can be good in a number of areas but then any good is lost as the school is classed as not up to scratch because of failings in one area. It’s better to give an overview and let the parents decide from that or are we saying parents can’t cope with that can only deal with a one word judgement .
    The previous government decided (and I doubt the current one actually disagrees) that failing in safeguarding should mean failing overall. But on the other hand, the union seems to think that schools should never be marked as failing (and, quite possible, not inspected at all).
    There's failing and failing, though. It's the difference between "this school isn't safe" and "this school is safe but not all the forms are filled in". Sort of like the Yes, Minister episode.

    Your standard Ofsted inspection is one day in a school, preceded by inspectors looking at publicly-available forms. (To the extent that some schools used to track unusual activity on their website to guess if an inspection was imminent.) Because of that, it's all more superficial than you might think, and there is a definite sense that inspectors come in with a hypothesis that they seek to confirm rather than test.

    You could do the whole thing better- inspectors starting with observations on the ground, visiting schools more often and for longer. But that would cost, and nobody has ever wanted to spend the money.
    Yeah, food safety inspections are the same. Any caff owner knows that you can't get above a 2 if you don't have your forms filled in.
    But that's not the same, is it? FSA grade 2 Is "Improvements necessary". The situation in schools was more paperwork fails = automatic closure and takeover.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    I find Tugendhat very whiny and his new found zeal to dump the ECHR looks desperate and needy . Cleverly would seem the best candidate to appeal to more of the public.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,990

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would not have been shot or blown up.
    Which slightly misses the point that if Hamas hadn't take hostages they would not have been there to be shot or blown up
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think Cleverly is up to it, much as he might be my first pick. Kemi as first black woman party leader would be fantastic but she's a bit young imo. Tugendhat from immigrant Jewish stock also I don't think quite up to it. That leaves Priti and, finally, straight white bloke Jenrick who has dead eyes.

    So put that all in a pot and stir it and who do I think will be best? I'm going Tugendhat because he has that Cameroon self-awareness and is sufficiently posh and English to not need to assuage the extremes.

    Really depends which voters the Tories want to regain. Voters lost to the LDs? Tugendhat your man. Voters lost to Labour? Probably Cleverly or Stride.

    Voters lost to Reform? Patel, Badenoch or Jenrick.

    Not yet a candidate though who can rebuild all the 2019 winning Conservative coalition Boris built
    No true. Cameron and Boris (and Blair) were similar in their strongly positive would like to go and have a drink with themness. There is no one who is similarly broad church and sufficiently nimble of intellect and outlook to be able to accommodate any point of view, understand it, and either dismiss or endorse it, all the while assuring you that they get the absurdities.

    But yes also - depends who they want to win back. Elections are always won from the centre, we are told, which also suggests Tugendhat. As we see time and again, the only consequence of trying to pander to the extreme is that the extreme shifts further out and you are back where you started trying to appeal to them.
  • Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
    You can only make peace when both sides are willing to settle.

    Hamas are not (Bibi - or at least his extreme right flank - doesn’t want to, but can probably be strong armed into a settlement).

    Do you really believe that withdrawing from Gaza and giving them self-government, for example, would result in a peaceful democratic society there?
    I've really no idea how to bring peace to the Middle East, and earlier in this thread I have already praised Israel as the only functioning liberal democracy in the region.

    The tragedy you hint at is that even if the principals were willing to settle, there'd be others on both extremes ready to provoke their opponents and prevent peace.
  • nico679 said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    I would have thought it’s best for Hamas to keep hostages alive . It doesn’t make much sense to kill them when they’re being used for leverage in any deal .
    Sadly, and horribly, it would make sense for Hamas to execute their hostages if they thought that they were about to be found by the Israeli forces. But it could also have been an air strike. Both sides lie.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Cookie said:

    carnforth said:

    Am I the only, actual working class person who posts here?

    With parents who summer at Sandbanks?
    I work 55-60 hours a week 46 weeks a year to get somewhere near average wage

    My Dad gives me wine for walking his dog on my days off

    My mum aways wants to feed me, I let her do it on Sundays

    They do go to Sandbanks, but that doesn't stop me being a fucking-hard-working class postie

    Not many working class people on here. Not least because posting on the site is considerably easier for those who work in offices. ISTR @twistedfirestopper3 is a firefighter - perhaps he qualifies, if that is the case?

    A postie is a working class job, but from what you've said of your background I don't think your upbringing was typically working class? But who among us is genuinely typical of our class, whatever that is? Feeling a bit of an outsider is the human condition, I think.
    Being working class isn't about working in an office in my view at least. Many working class people do. I would say working class these days is more a) I work for a living, b) If I lost my job I would struggle within a month to feed myself and family, c) I can't afford to save a deposit and buy a house because at the end of the month there is little to no money left

    Taz said:

    Am I the only, actual working class person who posts here?

    No, there are a few of us. Not many I think but certainly a few.

    I’ll never write have much in life but I’m quite happy.
    The obsession with beingʻ working class and comingbfrom a poor background to prove yourself is getting very boring. So many in the media trying to do a poor Yorkshireman to prove their worth.
    While I agree with you about the media I do think it is relevant here. The simple reason being that so many here aren't in the just about managing section of the population and they need pushing back on when they suggest things because they really don't understand how little slack those people's budgets have.

    When putting 2% on the basic rate of tax for example probably most won't feel that here, for a "jam" that could well be another meal they will be skipping at the end of the month yet its airly thrown out as a suggestion like it won't actually affect anyone

    I would suggest the definition of working class these days should be probably
    a) You rent or have a mortgage because bank of mum and dad
    b) you have little in the way of savings as you struggle to make the money last to the end of the month
    c) If you lose your job you are going to be in financial trouble within weeks
    The problem with this definition is that it ignores the socio part of socio-economic. You can be all those things a-c and be the second (or first) son of an earl and you would hence not be working class. Not in the UK at least.

    That's why it probably makes more sense to see things in purely economic terms and ditch the working, middle, upper class nomenclature when looking at economic circumstances.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,173

    For anyone actually interested in the background, rather than just artificially raising their blood pressure (is it some strange kink thing?), PT had @ydoethur explaining with his customary knowledge and elegance.

    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Wasn't the issue that schools rated good or outstanding had reduced inspection schedules, so a drop from Outstanding to Inadequate was possible in one jump? Hiring more inspectors and going back to regular inspections would result in smoother, less embarassing downgrades?

    That was an issue but not the important one. The important one was that any school rated ‘inadequate’ on safeguarding had to, by law, be placed in an academy chain.

    So at Caversham some errors in the paperwork - which should not have been there but were not serious and would have taken maybe a day to correct - gave an excuse for the school to be merged into a local academy chain which would have meant the SLT were all sacked. This is something they had been resisting for a while and this was intended to be used an excuse to get past their resistance. (It also happened at a school in Leeds about a year before.)

    Interestingly from what I hear, although he shouldn’t be doing inspections for other reasons I can’t discuss Alan Derry does *not* appear to have recommended a 4 at Caversham. He was overruled by the centre.

    Ruth Perry’s suicide meant this plan was hurriedly abandoned and the school - having made almost no changes - was reinspected and graded ‘good.’

    That tells me all I need to know about what happened and why, and is pretty disgusting, particularly when compounded by the perjury of senior Ofsted figures at the inquest, after which the DfE finally admitted despite earlier denials that it has been controlling and using Ofsted for years.

    That may be eliminated with this new system, but the damage done to Ofsted’s reputation is probably irreversible.
    But now he has a flint knapping spot in the Telegraph to keep warm, Leon knows better. The clueless loudmouth.

    The only immediate changes are the scrapping of the headline grade - which was imbecilic in lumping together otherwise good schools which failed in a single category along with those seriously inadequate - and the automatic acadamisation rule (equally imbecilic).

    Labour may well fail to improve education - certainly the previous government did - but it won't be because of this.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,495
    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Foxy said:

    On topic, the time we become a Republic is when a truly useless heir to the throne takes over. It's a lottery, and only a matter of time before another Prince Andrew is first born. It isn't 1688 where we import a distant relative from the Netherlands.

    A Monarchy kept in power via apathy and doing nothing remotely interesting is inherently an unstable genetic losing bet.

    Rubbish. Our "unstable" Monarchy has lasted for more than 350 years without interruption while the "stable" French have had, just since 1789, 16 constitutions including five republics, four monarchies and a dictatorship. It has survived mad kings, lost wars, political crises, domestic scandals and even Megan Markle and is still about the most popular national institution we have.
    Bunch of parasites , sooner they are binned the better. A bigger bunch of grasping troughers you will not find.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    nico679 said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    I would have thought it’s best for Hamas to keep hostages alive . It doesn’t make much sense to kill them when they’re being used for leverage in any deal .
    Sadly, and horribly, it would make sense for Hamas to execute their hostages if they thought that they were about to be found by the Israeli forces. But it could also have been an air strike. Both sides lie.
    Good point. Hostages are of no further use if they are about to become ex-hostages so it is logical to kill them.

    Of course Hamas could just release all the hostages which, given current global public opinion, would be overwhelmingly likely to bring an instant ceasefire but I suppose they have their reasons not to do so.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Er no. The school inspection system was already completely fucked up - by the school inspection system.

    Unlike some on here I do believe in having an effective inspection system that grades schools and gives parents what the information they ned to make choices. But the current OFSTED regime is not it. One word judgements belong in the Colosseum or the firing squad, not school standards.
    If they said schools were really good, average, or needed improvement, using more words, summarised or weighted across more areas, would that be ok?

    You see, I want it to be fair, humane and reasonable and my real concern here is that there are plenty that just don't think it's appropriate for schools to be rated at all. Firstly, because of pressure that puts on the school and the staff, and, secondly, because it might help contribute to creating a market in education, to which there is ideological opposition.

    If that is the case, then I strongly disagree.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
    You can only make peace when both sides are willing to settle.

    Hamas are not (Bibi - or at least his extreme right flank - doesn’t want to, but can probably be strong armed into a settlement).

    Do you really believe that withdrawing from Gaza and giving them self-government, for example, would result in a peaceful democratic society there?
    I've really no idea how to bring peace to the Middle East, and earlier in this thread I have already praised Israel as the only functioning liberal democracy in the region.

    The tragedy you hint at is that even if the principals were willing to settle, there'd be others on both extremes ready to provoke their opponents and prevent peace.
    A very learned, intelligent, and sensible friend of mine said that the only way was to return to 1967 borders and saturate the area with UN peacekeepers.

    Then again, he thought that the original sin was the creation of Israel in the first place (assuaging Europe's guilt as he saw it) and there are some who would take issue with that premise.
  • TOPPING said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
    You can only make peace when both sides are willing to settle.

    Hamas are not (Bibi - or at least his extreme right flank - doesn’t want to, but can probably be strong armed into a settlement).

    Do you really believe that withdrawing from Gaza and giving them self-government, for example, would result in a peaceful democratic society there?
    I've really no idea how to bring peace to the Middle East, and earlier in this thread I have already praised Israel as the only functioning liberal democracy in the region.

    The tragedy you hint at is that even if the principals were willing to settle, there'd be others on both extremes ready to provoke their opponents and prevent peace.
    A very learned, intelligent, and sensible friend of mine said that the only way was to return to 1967 borders and saturate the area with UN peacekeepers.

    Then again, he thought that the original sin was the creation of Israel in the first place (assuaging Europe's guilt as he saw it) and there are some who would take issue with that premise.
    Time's arrow.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,897
    eek said:

    Fpt

    ydoethur said:

    carnforth said:

    Wasn't the issue that schools rated good or outstanding had reduced inspection schedules, so a drop from Outstanding to Inadequate was possible in one jump? Hiring more inspectors and going back to regular inspections would result in smoother, less embarassing downgrades?

    That was an issue but not the important one. The important one was that any school rated ‘inadequate’ on safeguarding had to, by law, be placed in an academy chain.

    So at Caversham some errors in the paperwork - which should not have been there but were not serious and would have taken maybe a day to correct - gave an excuse for the school to be merged into a local academy chain which would have meant the SLT were all sacked. This is something they had been resisting for a while and this was intended to be used an excuse to get past their resistance. (It also happened at a school in Leeds about a year before.)

    Interestingly from what I hear, although he shouldn’t be doing inspections for other reasons I can’t discuss Alan Derry does *not* appear to have recommended a 4 at Caversham. He was overruled by the centre.

    Ruth Perry’s suicide meant this plan was hurriedly abandoned and the school - having made almost no changes - was reinspected and graded ‘good.’

    That tells me all I need to know about what happened and why, and is pretty disgusting, particularly when compounded by the perjury of senior Ofsted figures at the inquest, after which the DfE finally admitted despite earlier denials that it has been controlling and using Ofsted for years.

    That may be eliminated with this new system, but the damage done to Ofsted’s reputation is probably irreversible.
    Something seems to have gone wrong at Caversham so it probably isn't a good example to use, but I find it strange that Ofsted reports seem to come as a surprise. Shouldn't the HT already know they are running a failing school, and be doing something about it?
    To find out how a (small) school is doing you need something to compare yourself against and with the introduction of more chains that’s got far harder.

    A single form primary school may look lovely but it’s hard to gauge how it’s doing when you have nothing to compare against
    Our eldest daughter's primary school was rated "Good" and we were not always wowed by it, but this year she and her former classmates turned 18 and about a quarter of her former primary class got into Oxbridge so I guess they must have been doing something right.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,895
    TOPPING said:

    nico679 said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    I would have thought it’s best for Hamas to keep hostages alive . It doesn’t make much sense to kill them when they’re being used for leverage in any deal .
    Sadly, and horribly, it would make sense for Hamas to execute their hostages if they thought that they were about to be found by the Israeli forces. But it could also have been an air strike. Both sides lie.
    Good point. Hostages are of no further use if they are about to become ex-hostages so it is logical to kill them.

    Of course Hamas could just release all the hostages which, given current global public opinion, would be overwhelmingly likely to bring an instant ceasefire but I suppose they have their reasons not to do so.
    If Hamas had wanted a ceasefire they wouldn't have taken the hostages in the first place.

    Maybe it makes sense for them to realise that they have played a poor hand badly, and releasing the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire would be a good deal today, but they are clearly either not ready to let go of what they hoped to achieve last October, or the current state of open-ended fighting is what they were looking for.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good morning from Tara Canyon

    So now they fuck up the school inspection system. To please the unions

    This government is like a bad parody of a bad lefty government

    Er no. The school inspection system was already completely fucked up - by the school inspection system.

    Unlike some on here I do believe in having an effective inspection system that grades schools and gives parents what the information they ned to make choices. But the current OFSTED regime is not it. One word judgements belong in the Colosseum or the firing squad, not school standards.
    At the end of this Labour government English education will be considerably worse and we will likely have followed Scotland down the PISA rankings. This is all about producer interest; pleasing the teacher unions (the same guys that insisted on closing the schools for two years for covid, so they could all lie on the sofa, and now belatedly we realise this has crocked all the kids). We’re fucked
    The consistent pattern of behaviour by this Government so far is worship of the State: policy to serve producer interests, increasing producer pay, creating more producers (nationalisation) and more regulation (banning vapes and fags, restricting speech, adding on laws)

    Note it's inputs and not the outputs they're focused on.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,760
    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    Now I've seen fucking everything. The Topster doing heterosexual white-knighting for the resident gryovague and shit flouncer.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    TOPPING said:

    kamski said:

    TOPPING said:

    On the second most important thread topic, I see Leon only has to pop up and provide some kind of opinion on news of the day for at least three triggered posters to jump on him with a combination of ad hom and meaningless retorts. Only Richard T actually engaged with the point.

    People should calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened.

    Why are you threatened by people replying to Leon?

    He must enjoy it otherwise he wouldn't post things like his support for neo-nazi Björn Höcke.
    I'm interested in peoples' reactions to him. I'm sure he enjoys triggering the simple folk on here and they duly oblige. So carry on pls.
    Wait, what? A minute ago your advice was to 'calm down about Leon and not feel so threatened', now its 'carry on pls'

    You seem confused. Which would be enjoyable if it wasn't so repetitive.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,668
    TOPPING said:

    I don't think Cleverly is up to it, much as he might be my first pick. Kemi as first black woman party leader would be fantastic but she's a bit young imo. Tugendhat from immigrant Jewish stock also I don't think quite up to it. That leaves Priti and, finally, straight white bloke Jenrick who has dead eyes.

    So put that all in a pot and stir it and who do I think will be best? I'm going Tugendhat because he has that Cameroon self-awareness and is sufficiently posh and English to not need to assuage the extremes.

    Priti Patel is bottom of my list. She massively overrates herself, isn't hugely intellectual (sorry) and she's not got a great record of team leadership either.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited September 2
    I think a critical attribute of a politician is whether they are or are not what I would call "brittle". Or are they flexible.

    A brittle politician could be intelligent, ideological, driven, and sound. But does not have the capacity to ingest information, understand the issues around it, and accommodate in their response the opposing view if only to dismiss it. They would likely continue to make their own point regardless of any differing opinions.

    A flexible politician, conversely, is able to accommodate in their response the possibility that people might disagree with them and understand and acknowledge the counter argument and thereby be able to dismiss it more sincerely.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,897
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole

    Punchy start to the new school term: Jenrick offering Pol Eds Buck’s Fizz or a Bloody Mary for breakfast.

    Long way from David Cameron’s smoothies in 2005.

    Could be a long old day. 😂

    Jenrick clearly thinks that political hacks deserve to enjoy themselves more than small children flying persecution do.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,946
    Mr. Royale, the Budget in October will be telling. So far, mood music and announcements indicate it'll be about shovelling money towards public sector pay, cutting actual infrastructure investment, and hiking taxes on the wicked public sector.

    The chatter about 'growth' before the election seems to have rather diminished.

    While this helped Labour win on a tidal wave of apathy, that also means there isn't the public support for what they might do, given how quiet and vague they were. This is in rather stark contrast to Cameron and Osborne being open about significant cuts (Labour's likely equivalent, of course, being hiking taxes).
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,916
    In an ideal world, surely the inspection system for schools would work best as a continuous feedback system - schools in contact with a regular Ofsted caseworker, regular visits, target-setting and reporting against a number of metrics. The reason that doesn’t happen is because the money isn’t there, but in an ideal world you’d make the relationship between Ofsted and the schools one of closer co-operation rather than an adversarial one, it seems to me.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,213

    nico679 said:

    I find Tugendhat very whiny and his new found zeal to dump the ECHR looks desperate and needy . Cleverly would seem the best candidate to appeal to more of the public.

    The risk with Tugendhat is that he tries to cosplay hard-as-nails, because he worries people think he's not, when he's really Mark Darcy.

    He should own the Mark Darcy and be himself. FWIW, I don't think he is wet/soft (and has been consistently tough on China) but he can't help the fact he looks wet/soft.

    Could he cope with the bullpit of frontline politics as the leader?
    The Conservatives are going to need someone who looks and sounds angry this time round. The membership will be seething at Starmer and affronted that there's a Labour government, against the natural order of things, thus really wanting someone to stick the knife in. We see it on here already and we've not even started the first parliamentary term yet.

    That might not be a bad idea. May well not be enough to win the next election but I sense the party does need someone who can rally the troops and hit back. Keep up morale in the ranks. It's a bit too early for the next PM to emerge - they tend to be more inclusive, more willing to triangulate with the other side of politics, less of a rabble rouser - that's probably for the next but one leader.

    So I struggle to see a way through for anyone who looks or sounds moderate and accommodating. It seems almost certain it's going to be interior-decorator Jenrick.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,760
    TOPPING said:

    Israeli protesters demand ceasefire after six more hostages die in Gaza
    https://www.itv.com/news/2024-09-01/israel-says-bodies-of-six-hostages-recovered-in-gaza

    Britons who fly into an apoplectic rage that ‘anti-semites’ blame Israel as well as Hamas would do well to look at events in Israel and reflect that is the one country in the Middle East where it is safe to join a trade union, to be gay, to follow any religion or none, and even to tell the Prime Minister he is a murderous knob.

    Once again the BBC being utterly evenhanded between a terrorist organisation and (however much you dislike them) an elected democratic government

    The Israeli government says the hostages were shot at close range in the last 48-72 hours. Hamas “disputes this and says they were killed in an Israeli air strike”

    That’s going to be a simple question of fact.
    Yes, although whether a BBC news crew is best placed to conduct post-mortems is questionable. In any case, it slightly misses the point which is that if there had been a negotiated settlement, the hostages would
    not have been shot or blown up.
    Bluntly speaking the word of a terrorist organisation should be discounted.

    A negotiated settlement would be good. Except that Hamas is unwilling to negotiate or step back from their genocidal intent.

    You make peace with your enemies, not your friends.
    You can only make peace when both sides are willing to settle.

    Hamas are not (Bibi - or at least his extreme right flank - doesn’t want to, but can probably be strong armed into a settlement).

    Do you really believe that withdrawing from Gaza and giving them self-government, for example, would result in a peaceful democratic society there?
    I've really no idea how to bring peace to the Middle East, and earlier in this thread I have already praised Israel as the only functioning liberal democracy in the region.

    The tragedy you hint at is that even if the principals were willing to settle, there'd be others on both extremes ready to provoke their opponents and prevent peace.
    A very learned, intelligent, and sensible friend of mine said that the only way was to return to 1967 borders and saturate the area with UN peacekeepers.
    Who's going to kick the settlers out of the West Bank under this scheme? Because no Israeli government would and the settlers are going to shoot anybody who tries.
This discussion has been closed.