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Another Boris Johnson failure, Brexit isn’t done – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,158
edited September 29 in General
Another Boris Johnson failure, Brexit isn’t done – politicalbetting.com

Is Brexit 'done'?(% of party voters)It is done: Con (42), Lab (27), Lib (25), Reform (27)It is not: Con (40), Lab (49), Lib (55), Reform (61)https://t.co/n9OZzTTB1T pic.twitter.com/q9unB8kgEU

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,600
    edited August 29
    Listening to the Seldon/Truss audiobook.

    All I can say is

    👀😱👀😱👀😱👀😱
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,104
    1st of the official competitors.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Is there a Pulitzer for subtitles?



    https://x.com/marklewismd/status/1829008513772990504/photo/1

    He looks quite surprised anyone is.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,983
    edited August 29
    FPT

    kinabalu said:
    » show previous quotes

    That's true the polls underestimated Trump's vote last time (and I am in truth concerned they might be again) however the pollsters have made adjustments to their MO to try and prevent a recurrence. Perhaps it hasn't worked but hopefully it has. And you never know they might have overdone it and be erring the other way now.

    TimS said:

    Didn’t happen in the UK. Despite all the adjustments after 2019 they still massively overestimated Labour and underestimated Conservative.

    However, polls in multiple countries are also routinely overestimating the far right, as they did here in July too.

    Which makes the US difficult. Are they underestimating the main right wing candidate (Trump) or overestimating the far right candidate (Trump)?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,104
    Nigelb said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Is there a Pulitzer for subtitles?



    https://x.com/marklewismd/status/1829008513772990504/photo/1

    He looks quite surprised anyone is.
    Is this an audience of one clapping, or one person in an audience clapping, or is his cat the only one who turned up?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,396
    "Done" will, of course, have a completely different meaning for each respondent.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited August 29
    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    TimS said:

    FPT

    kinabalu said:
    » show previous quotes

    That's true the polls underestimated Trump's vote last time (and I am in truth concerned they might be again) however the pollsters have made adjustments to their MO to try and prevent a recurrence. Perhaps it hasn't worked but hopefully it has. And you never know they might have overdone it and be erring the other way now.

    TimS said:

    Didn’t happen in the UK. Despite all the adjustments after 2019 they still massively overestimated Labour and underestimated Conservative.

    However, polls in multiple countries are also routinely overestimating the far right, as they did here in July too.

    Which makes the US difficult. Are they underestimating the main right wing candidate (Trump) or overestimating the far right candidate (Trump)?

    Trump is a unique candidate in the western world as both being the figurehead of the far right in his nation but also the candidate of the main establishment right of centre party
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,545
    FPT, because it is worth it:

    Way off-topic:

    An interesting video about a civil-war floating whorehouse and licensed prostitution :
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRj1GbyK0rg

    Seriously; it's worth watching. If you can't, then read this:
    https://www.history.com/news/civil-war-prostitution-nashville
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,678
    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    Is the 'hard border in Northern Ireland' a concept that even enters the imagination of the average Reform voter?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    edited August 29
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Is there a Pulitzer for subtitles?



    https://x.com/marklewismd/status/1829008513772990504/photo/1

    He looks quite surprised anyone is.
    Is this an audience of one clapping, or one person in an audience clapping, or is his cat the only one who turned up?
    Or has he been given the clap by a single person?

    (Link to @JosiasJessop 's post on Nashville...)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    edited August 29
    kinabalu said:

    I don't see how anybody can say that Brexit isn't done. Brexit is shorthand for the UK leaving the European Union. That has happened. We did leave. It's done.

    I think perhaps "Brexit as a political issue" is the unspoken, longhand version of your shorthand.
    And as with Brexit itself, how people interpret what that issue comprises will vary rather a lot.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,344
    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,015
    Right wing journalist clearly never had to do a summer job when he was a kid.

    NEW: Kamala Harris’s missing “summer job” at McDonald’s job. Her resume and job application a year after graduating college — @FreeBeacon obtained through FOIA — don’t mention it...
    https://x.com/peterjhasson/status/1829105024393252971

    Deservedly ridiculed in the comments.
    They are desperate, and clueless.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,094
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    I don't see how anybody can say that Brexit isn't done. Brexit is shorthand for the UK leaving the European Union. That has happened. We did leave. It's done.

    I think perhaps "Brexit as a political issue" is the unspoken, longhand version of your shorthand.
    And as with Brexit itself, how people interpret what that issue comprises will vary rather a lot.
    Ah ok - well in that case I doubt that 'it' will ever be done.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Makes you fear for democracy. Of course Brexit is done - the UK is no longer a member of the EU. That doesn't mean that the two sides never have anything to talk about in future...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,344
    Stark_Dawning said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    Is the 'hard border in Northern Ireland' a concept that even enters the imagination of the average Reform voter?
    Farage tells them that the Tories fumbled it and, since we self-evidently are not in the land of milk and honey promised, it's easy for them to believe him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited August 29
    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Does that include imported electricity?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    LostPassword said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    Is the 'hard border in Northern Ireland' a concept that even enters the imagination of the average Reform voter?
    Farage tells them that the Tories fumbled it and, since we self-evidently are not in the land of milk and honey promised, it's easy for them to believe him.
    When you look at the economic data out of France and Germany in the last couple of weeks, the UK is doing bloody damn well at the moment. These things are of course all relative, and we all have a limited scope of personal experience which can differ wildly from the official statistics - especially when pay rises lag a period of high inflation and relatively high interest rates, as we might have seen recently.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,344
    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    They were the voters who gave Johnson his majority, and they think they were failed on the central issue of the 2019 GE campaign. That's the main point.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    They were the voters who gave Johnson his majority, and they think they were failed on the central issue of the 2019 GE campaign. That's the main point.
    Free movement has ended and there is a tighter salary requirement for Visas, at least until Starmer starts to relax that.

    Some of those who went to Reform want not only tighter immigration controls but deportations too
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,866
    Afternoon all :)

    As you travel up the East Midlands Railway line to Nottingham or Sheffield you pass Ratcliffe-on-Soar public station which I believe is the last coal burning power station. The vast site could be redeveloped as a significant residential redevelopment (I don't know).

    It's worth mentioning to @HYUFD that having told us from 2019 onwards the only opinions that mattered were those of LEAVE-voting Conservatives, it's worth noting eight weeks ago today there was a reset and presumably for the new Government the opinions of the rump of Conservative voters are immaterial - it's the Labour vote which will matter most to them and Government policies may or may not reflect that but that's how politics works.

    Interesting to note @TOPPING's comments this morning. I don't "get" Trump, Farage or Johnson in that I struggle to understand how anyone with a functioning brain cell could support any of them but the fact is they do. Like most snake oil salesmen they say what they believe their audience wants to hear and as long as they don't face a 100% hostile crowd they can get away with that. That's the power of the echo chamber.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,344
    WSJ is reporting that pilot error led to the loss of one of Ukraine's ten F-16 jets.

    That would be unfortunate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    Verulamius said:

    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Does that include imported electricity?
    Does 'coal burning for mass power in the UK' include imported electricity?

    Gee, well...

    More seriously I think most of our imports are from Norway (hydro) and France (wind and nuclear) when they have a surplus, so I'm guessing very little of our imports are coal fired anyway.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    FPT...
    Cookie said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    Are non-smokers happier, when controlled for other relevant factors like wealth?
    Most smokers want to be non-smokers, suggesting so.
    That's a reasonable logical leap, I think. I guess I just don't understand why it's difficult. Which is not to say that it isn't - just that I don't have anything to compare it to.
    Nicotine is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very addictive. When I was doing my PhD, my officemate was studying polydrug users, and they told him that nicotine was harder to quit than the various illegal things they were doing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,545
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As you travel up the East Midlands Railway line to Nottingham or Sheffield you pass Ratcliffe-on-Soar public station which I believe is the last coal burning power station. The vast site could be redeveloped as a significant residential redevelopment (I don't know).

    (Snip)

    Personally, I'd avoid buying a house built on a power station site unless they spend a humongous fortune on cleaning/replacing the soil (as I believe they did with the Olympics site).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    A metaphor for a properly policed channel with regard to irregular migrants, as opposed to actually calling for the tunnel to be bricked up or ferries banned from crossing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,545
    LostPassword said:

    WSJ is reporting that pilot error led to the loss of one of Ukraine's ten F-16 jets.

    That would be unfortunate.

    If it's the one reported yesterday, then the pilot died as well. RIP.

    Apparently a non-combat loss.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    JosiasJessop said:

    LostPassword said:

    WSJ is reporting that pilot error led to the loss of one of Ukraine's ten F-16 jets.

    That would be unfortunate.

    If it's the one reported yesterday, then the pilot died as well. RIP.

    Apparently a non-combat loss.
    Crap. War sucks, but the solution is more F-16s heading to Ukraine.

    How many Spitfire pilots did we lose in WWII to non-combat incidents?

    RIP.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited August 29
    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.

    This is a good point. All the polls which breakdown the answers by voter status have just had a big reset after the GE.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,866
    JosiasJessop said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As you travel up the East Midlands Railway line to Nottingham or Sheffield you pass Ratcliffe-on-Soar public station which I believe is the last coal burning power station. The vast site could be redeveloped as a significant residential redevelopment (I don't know).

    (Snip)

    Personally, I'd avoid buying a house built on a power station site unless they spend a humongous fortune on cleaning/replacing the soil (as I believe they did with the Olympics site).
    I'm not disputing there would be significant decontamination costs but I would assume the existing infrastructure for such a site in terms of power, water and sewerage would be in place, it's right next to a railway station and the A453 and presumably some access could be provided to the Trent and the Soar for water-based leisure activities such as a marina.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Now we just need to get the rest of the world to follow suit.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    FPT...
    Cookie said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    Are non-smokers happier, when controlled for other relevant factors like wealth?
    Most smokers want to be non-smokers, suggesting so.
    That's a reasonable logical leap, I think. I guess I just don't understand why it's difficult. Which is not to say that it isn't - just that I don't have anything to compare it to.
    BartholomewRoberts said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    In all honesty, I thought the gradually-increasing-age-of-legality was quite clever, as it doesn't take away anyone's existing rights.
    I still thought it fundamentally wrong, though - in general, it shouldn't be the business of the state from stopping people making stupid decisions.
    [Disclaimer: I have smoked, what, 5 cigarettes in my life, all as a teenager. From memory, I don't think it's true that there is no upside - they do induce a pleasant buzz. Which is presumably why people disregard the downsides and do it. Didn't seem worth the money to me, but not entirely without upside. I refrained from any further experimentation after finding an unopened pack of B&H in the street, aged about 16, trying one, and finding the thought of ploughing sufficiently discouraging to never bother again. With, I think, some relief.]
    We ban cannabis, cocaine, LSD, MDMA etc. Nicotine is more addictive than those. If you're going to ban any drugs, there's a strong argument that you ban smoking.
    You're right.

    The problem is prohibition doesn't work and causes more problems than it solves.

    Smoking is bad and I'd like to see it eliminated, but I'd rather cannabis, cocaine, LSD, MDMA etc were legalised and sold alongside nicotine behind a counter at ASDA etc, than see nicotine criminalised.
    Prohibition does work. Prohibition is a very effective method of stopping people doing something. It's not perfect. It depends on what and how, but, broadly speaking, prohibition works for lots of things.

    There are examples of prohibition not working well (alcohol in the US in 1920), but there are plenty of examples of prohibition working well (commercial cultivation of blackcurrants in the US in 1911; Kinder eggs in the US under a 1938 law; pepper spray in the UK).

    Whether prohibition for cannabis is the right strategy, I don't know. Maybe not. But I'm certain usage would be higher with prohibition (decriminalisation has led to increased use wherever it's been tried), so prohibition is having some effect.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    They were the voters who gave Johnson his majority, and they think they were failed on the central issue of the 2019 GE campaign. That's the main point.
    Free movement has ended and there is a tighter salary requirement for Visas, at least until Starmer starts to relax that.

    Some of those who went to Reform want not only tighter immigration controls but deportations too
    Stamer has already done so. They cancelled the programmed increase. They have frozen it at £29k and said probably won't increase in the future.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,575
    Starmer justifies his smoking ban in terms of “the burden on the NHS”.

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1829112194484633806
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Now we just need to get the rest of the world to follow suit.
    If only Germany hadn’t shut down all those nuclear power stations, they could be making bank on energy exports like France at the moment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    A metaphor for a properly policed channel with regard to irregular migrants, as opposed to actually calling for the tunnel to be bricked up or ferries banned from crossing.
    Have Labour even hired they smashing the gangs Tsar yet? They seem to have gone very very quiet on stopping the boats which with the summer weather are arriving in high numbers.
  • A_View_From_Cumbria5A_View_From_Cumbria5 Posts: 406
    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Yes, @rcs1000 said he was logging a support ticket with Vanilla. It was their update overnight that caused the change.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
    Utter madness. You have to scroll through all the new comments to find where you were, only to start reading upwards once again.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,808
    bondegezou said:

    FPT...

    Cookie said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    Are non-smokers happier, when controlled for other relevant factors like wealth?
    Most smokers want to be non-smokers, suggesting so.
    That's a reasonable logical leap, I think. I guess I just don't understand why it's difficult. Which is not to say that it isn't - just that I don't have anything to compare it to.
    Nicotine is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very addictive. When I was doing my PhD, my officemate was studying polydrug users, and they told him that nicotine was harder to quit than the various illegal things they were doing.
    Is it more or less addictive than typing very?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    williamglenn said:

    Starmer justifies his smoking ban in terms of “the burden on the NHS”.

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1829112194484633806

    Aren't we all on the Zyn these days? Saves your lungs but gives you gum cancer instead and due to the large efficient nicotine hit even harder to give up.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,043
    noneoftheabove said:

    bondegezou said:

    FPT...

    Cookie said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    Are non-smokers happier, when controlled for other relevant factors like wealth?
    Most smokers want to be non-smokers, suggesting so.
    That's a reasonable logical leap, I think. I guess I just don't understand why it's difficult. Which is not to say that it isn't - just that I don't have anything to compare it to.
    Nicotine is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very addictive. When I was doing my PhD, my officemate was studying polydrug users, and they told him that nicotine was harder to quit than the various illegal things they were doing.
    Is it more or less addictive than typing very?
    It's more addictive than posting to PB, certainly.

    That said, I do also support an ever increasing age limit for being allowed to post to PB.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    RobD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
    Utter madness. You have to scroll through all the new comments to find where you were, only to start reading upwards once again.
    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/ is your friend :)
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,678
    bondegezou said:

    FPT...

    Cookie said:

    bondegezou said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Smoking income (from tax) exceeds the costs of treatment. If everyone stops smoking then it creates a shortfall in funding. At least, that was the case when I was at school, but I find it hard to believe the situation has changed since.

    That's a classic economics fallacy. It would be much better if those smokers were spending money, paying tax and reaping the positive effects of some other item (running shoes or bicycles, for example).
    I also don't think it's true any more.

    It used to be the case that taxes on smoking paid for the entire NHS, in the 1980s when more people smoked and costs were lower, but not now.

    Tax receipts from smoking last year: £8.8 billion.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284329/tobacco-duty-united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts/

    NHS Budget for England alone last year: £168.8 billion

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/our-2023-24-business-plan/

    I very much doubt if smoking related cancers and other illnesses only cost 5% of NHS budget.
    On the basis that people will all eventually die of something, and that something will often cost lots of NHS money, I suspect that the lifetime costs of smokers to the NHS/social care is probably lower than non-smokers - they are mostly just bringing forward their expensive death by 10-20 years, rather than avoiding it forever.
    Every potential dementia sufferer who instead dies at 65 from lung cancer must cost vastly less, even accounting for the cancer treatment.

    I'm not sure this is a strong argument for permitting smoking, but trying to justify banning it because of the cost to the NHS doesn't really pass the smell test.
    Yes the real and stronger argument (for a ban) is that the end of cigarette smoking will foster a happier healthier population. Politicians shy away from that because it sounds a bit nanny state and opt instead for the more bloodless lowfalutin 'it will reduce pressure on the NHS'.
    Are non-smokers happier, when controlled for other relevant factors like wealth?
    Most smokers want to be non-smokers, suggesting so.
    That's a reasonable logical leap, I think. I guess I just don't understand why it's difficult. Which is not to say that it isn't - just that I don't have anything to compare it to.
    Nicotine is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very addictive. When I was doing my PhD, my officemate was studying polydrug users, and they told him that nicotine was harder to quit than the various illegal things they were doing.
    Yes, the 'capture rate' as they call it - that is the likelihood that you will become addicted after your initial usage - is apparently higher than heroin.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,840
    On topic (sort of) is the question of which Brexit was done, giving a handy excuse to quote Dominic Cummings:-

    It wasn’t until 25 September 2020 that [Boris] finally understood even vaguely what leaving the Customs Union meant. I will never forget the look on his face when, after listening to Frost in a meeting on the final stage of the negotiation, he said, ‘No no no Frosty, fuck this, what happens with a deal?’ And Frost looked up from his paper and said, ‘PM, this is what happens with a deal, that’s what leaving the Customs Union means.’ The PM’s face was priceless. He sat back in his chair and looked around the room with appalled disbelief and shook his head. Horrified officials’ phones pinged around the Cabinet table. One very senior official texted me, ‘Now I realise how you managed to get Brexit done 😂’
    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/risk-aggression-brexit-and-article
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    Now we have the video, and it looks like the “Safety” car had a brake failure at 180mph! :open_mouth:

    https://imgur.com/EZ8GUMh

    Larry Stroll is going to be in a bad mood this weekend.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    RobD said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
    Utter madness. You have to scroll through all the new comments to find where you were, only to start reading upwards once again.
    Believe it or not, this was the way the site was for quite a long time. I can't remember when it changed. Maybe around 2014.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,186
    Sandpit said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    LostPassword said:

    WSJ is reporting that pilot error led to the loss of one of Ukraine's ten F-16 jets.

    That would be unfortunate.

    If it's the one reported yesterday, then the pilot died as well. RIP.

    Apparently a non-combat loss.
    Crap. War sucks, but the solution is more F-16s heading to Ukraine.

    How many Spitfire pilots did we lose in WWII to non-combat incidents?

    RIP.
    Seafires (the navalised Spitfires) crashed at a rate that only occasionally allowed the enemy a chance of shooting them down.

    https://amzn.eu/d/9Q7aM2k is an interesting read.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,866
    edited August 29
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
    As usual, I'm going to be in a minority of one on here and disagree. It's quite enlightening to move through a long thread and see how the various discussions and topics have played out rather than just jumping in, reading the last half dozen and barging into the argument like a demented rhino.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    stodge said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As you travel up the East Midlands Railway line to Nottingham or Sheffield you pass Ratcliffe-on-Soar public station which I believe is the last coal burning power station. The vast site could be redeveloped as a significant residential redevelopment (I don't know).

    (Snip)

    Personally, I'd avoid buying a house built on a power station site unless they spend a humongous fortune on cleaning/replacing the soil (as I believe they did with the Olympics site).
    I'm not disputing there would be significant decontamination costs but I would assume the existing infrastructure for such a site in terms of power, water and sewerage would be in place, it's right next to a railway station and the A453 and presumably some access could be provided to the Trent and the Soar for water-based leisure activities such as a marina.
    It's probably better off used as a site for more warehouses and data centres and the like.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    DecrepiterJohnL said:

    On topic (sort of) is the question of which Brexit was done, giving a handy excuse to quote Dominic Cummings:-

    It wasn’t until 25 September 2020 that [Boris] finally understood even vaguely what leaving the Customs Union meant. I will never forget the look on his face when, after listening to Frost in a meeting on the final stage of the negotiation, he said, ‘No no no Frosty, fuck this, what happens with a deal?’ And Frost looked up from his paper and said, ‘PM, this is what happens with a deal, that’s what leaving the Customs Union means.’ The PM’s face was priceless. He sat back in his chair and looked around the room with appalled disbelief and shook his head. Horrified officials’ phones pinged around the Cabinet table. One very senior official texted me, ‘Now I realise how you managed to get Brexit done 😂’
    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/risk-aggression-brexit-and-article

    The Big Dom interview with Chris Williamson had some very interest nuggets. Obviously some things you have to take a pinch of salt, but some genuine crazy stuff about how backward government was / is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    stodge said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

    Is it the intention to revert to the normal newest first order or not ?

    Its rather annoying in oldest first when threads get long.
    As usual, I'm going to be in a minority of one on here and disagree. It's quite enlightening to move through a long thread and see how the various discussions and topics have played out rather than just jumping in, reading the last half dozen and barging into the argument like a demented rhino.
    Off to Conservative Home for you....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,575
    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    We should bring back transporation as an alternative to prison.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,569
    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    So deport him back to Albania then. These things shouldn’t be difficult.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Don't forget Cook. But yes, for me Root is the best of the best at test cricket. He is also able to score very quickly in all forms of the game when he wants.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    Didn't Alan Clark want to put a self-destruct mechanism in the Channel Tunnel, in case of invasion?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    So deport him back to Albania then. These things shouldn’t be difficult.
    That is what the government where doing with Albanians at least until the GE. I believe they were paying Albania to take them and lock them up on their return.

    After the big fanfare of hiring Timpson as prison minster, has anybody heard from him? He seemed invisible during the riots.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    So deport him back to Albania then. These things shouldn’t be difficult.
    Article 8 says hi.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,808
    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    Why isn't there an option to send someone to prison at a later date if prisons are currently full? I suppose because we have not previously had such a shambolic government as the last one, but we should look to give judges that power asap.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    noneoftheabove said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    Why isn't there an option to send someone to prison at a later date if prisons are currently full? I suppose because we have not previously had such a shambolic government as the last one, but we should look to give judges that power asap.
    Its quite common in other countries. Particularly for shorter sentences.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,344
    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Since Cook retired in 2018 it has often felt like he's carried the team's batting single-handed.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Oct+2018;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,186
    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    Didn't Alan Clark want to put a self-destruct mechanism in the Channel Tunnel, in case of invasion?
    The UK military wanted such, designed in, for each and every attempt at a Channel Tunnel, up to the present one.

    The 1960s examination of the issues were interesting. Since explosions are lazy, a bomb detonated in the tunnel would not destroy it, but turn in into a giant cannon. Even with large nuclear weapons. There were jokes about the first Russian tank into the tunnel would end up back in Poland....

    The design they came up with was a chamber off to one side of the tunnel, in the middle, that would blow out to the sea bed and flood the entire tunnel, IIRC.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    LostPassword said:

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Since Cook retired in 2018 it has often felt like he's carried the team's batting single-handed.
    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Oct+2018;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=batting
    Before that, given Cook's tendency in his post-captaincy career to produce occasional large scores interspersed with numerous failures.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited August 29
    ....
    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all great England batsmen wear Brylcreem!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,186
    Malmesbury said:

    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    Didn't Alan Clark want to put a self-destruct mechanism in the Channel Tunnel, in case of invasion?
    The UK military wanted such, designed in, for each and every attempt at a Channel Tunnel, up to the present one.

    The 1960s examination of the issues were interesting. Since explosions are lazy, a bomb detonated in the tunnel would not destroy it, but turn in into a giant cannon. Even with large nuclear weapons. There were jokes about the first Russian tank into the tunnel would end up back in Poland....

    The design they came up with was a chamber off to one side of the tunnel, in the middle, that would blow out to the sea bed and flood the entire tunnel, IIRC.
    Further - such demolition chambers were common in bridges built in Germany during the cold war. And also Switzerland's tunnels.

    In the case the bridges in Germany, IIRC there was a standard, conventional explosive charge that could be placed in the chamber, which was designed to maximise the effect and destroy the bridge reliably.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    So Starmer has taken down portrait of Thatcher from the Thatcher room (that Gordon Brown put up). Do you think he might having lying about his huge respect for Maggie?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    Rather surprisingly, he has a higher test average than Flintoff and only a tiny bit lower than Stokes, playing in a time with worse pitches and the likes of the legendary West Indies and Australian attack.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    Didn't Alan Clark want to put a self-destruct mechanism in the Channel Tunnel, in case of invasion?
    Is that the Channel Tunnel from Folkestone to "Bongo- Bongo" land? Clark was both a swordsman and a fool!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    Rather surprisingly, he has a higher test average than Flintoff and only a tiny bit lower than Stokes, playing in a time with worse pitches and the likes of the legendary West Indies and Australian attack.
    Hardly disproves my point....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    "Lucy Letby: Questions grow in debate on killer's convictions"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39k44n8j1mo
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    Rather surprisingly, he has a higher test average than Flintoff and only a tiny bit lower than Stokes, playing in a time with worse pitches and the likes of the legendary West Indies and Australian attack.
    Hardly disproves my point....
    Not saying he was greatest ever batter, I was just pointing out he has surprisingly good numbers. He clearly found a way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    Rather surprisingly, he has a higher test average than Flintoff and only a tiny bit lower than Stokes, playing in a time with worse pitches and the likes of the legendary West Indies and Australian attack.
    Hardly disproves my point....
    No, I was just pointing out he has surprisingly good numbers. He clearly found a way.
    His numbers are actually dragged down somewhat by the second half of his career, where he was picked on reputation rather than performance. I haven't got the figures but if memory serves up to the end of 1981 he averaged around 42 with the bat and 18 with the ball. Now *those* are world class figures even if they'd been for separate players.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 660
    The information that I find most interesting is that Reform is now no more pro Brexit than the Conservative party. My observation is that the Reform party is morphing in the same way that the right wing parties have done in EC. Control of immigration is now seen as key and the single market is no longer a big issue. In the new Reform party Nigel Farage is looking more and more dated and a new generation will come to the fore.

    The party most threatened by Reform is now Labour and not the Tories. It is hard to know why Keir Starmer approval rating is dropping so fast but my gut feeling is that young white working class men are the biggest movers.





  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    I remember sitting down with my dad as a youngster to watch the Tests with commentary from Benauld and Laker and both our hearts sank when Geoff bedded in for two days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited August 29
    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    Rather surprisingly, he has a higher test average than Flintoff and only a tiny bit lower than Stokes, playing in a time with worse pitches and the likes of the legendary West Indies and Australian attack.
    Hardly disproves my point....
    No, I was just pointing out he has surprisingly good numbers. He clearly found a way.
    His numbers are actually dragged down somewhat by the second half of his career, where he was picked on reputation rather than performance. I haven't got the figures but if memory serves up to the end of 1981 he averaged around 42 with the bat and 18 with the ball. Now *those* are world class figures even if they'd been for separate players.
    I am sure all those extracurricular activities didn't help that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    A Boris Johnson failure. Surely not !!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    So Starmer has taken down portrait of Thatcher from the Thatcher room (that Gordon Brown put up). Do you think he might having lying about his huge respect for Maggie?

    Well a spot has to be found for Liz's picture.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,808
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    So Starmer has taken down portrait of Thatcher from the Thatcher room (that Gordon Brown put up). Do you think he might having lying about his huge respect for Maggie?

    The Truss portrait has to fit somewhere after all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    Jacques Kallis, now he was a crazy good allrounder.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,420
    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Living in and around Loughborough all my life, Ratcliffe has been a constant presence on the horizon. Been up there a couple of times for incidents. Even had drivers on the M1 call in the red lights on it in as " fire visible in the fog!"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited August 29
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lucy Letby: Questions grow in debate on killer's convictions"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39k44n8j1mo

    Are we batting for Lucy because she was a pretty, middle class, white girl next door or because the evidence was circumstantial, the statistics didn't imply her guilt and she was a handy scapegoat for the incompetent managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,094
    edited August 29
    Sandpit said:

    LostPassword said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    Is the 'hard border in Northern Ireland' a concept that even enters the imagination of the average Reform voter?
    Farage tells them that the Tories fumbled it and, since we self-evidently are not in the land of milk and honey promised, it's easy for them to believe him.
    When you look at the economic data out of France and Germany in the last couple of weeks, the UK is doing bloody damn well at the moment. These things are of course all relative, and we all have a limited scope of personal experience which can differ wildly from the official statistics - especially when pay rises lag a period of high inflation and relatively high interest rates, as we might have seen recently.
    That's why Biden's strong economy isn't sealing it for the Dems this year. They're needing the extra factor of running against Donald Trump.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    edited August 29
    Verulamius said:

    ydoethur said:

    Currently 1% of electricity is from coal.

    A reminder that thirty days from now, that figure will reset to zero and stay there for good, bringing an end to coal burning for mass power in the UK.

    Genuinely landmark moment.

    Does that include imported electricity?
    We will - very occasionally - import coal fired electricity from Ireland. Usually, however, we export to them, and it's mostly when they have surplus wind power than it heads our way.

    Other than that, no.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,600
    This is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

    Round-the-world cruise delay keeps passengers in Belfast for three months

    https://www.theguardian.com/travel/article/2024/aug/29/round-the-world-cruise-delay-keeps-passengers-in-belfast-for-three-months?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,104
    Stuartinromford said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    LostPassword said:

    HYUFD said:

    Brexit is done on that poll for most Tory voters and that was who Boris focused on as he was elected PM of a Conservative majority government.

    It isn't done for most Labour and LD voters as they want Starmer to start to restore free movement and dilute Brexit.

    It isn't done for most Reform voters as they want an even harder Brexit than Boris had with the RN stopping the boats and a hard border in Northern Ireland

    I assume that Tory voters in that poll is the 20-something percent who voted Tory in 2024, so it's unlikely that a majority of 2019 Tory voters would agree that Brexit was done.
    Those that don't want an even harder Brexit as I said, blocking up the channel tunnel, razor wire on Kent beaches, naval ships in the channel, checkpoints at the Irish border and tariffs on EU imports etc but they are mainly Reform voters now not Tories
    Does anyone really want to block up the Channel Tunnel? Anyone?
    Rees Mogg wanted to build a wall in the English Channel

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/02/rees-mogg-tories-build-wall-english-channel-donald-trump-biden
    Didn't Alan Clark want to put a self-destruct mechanism in the Channel Tunnel, in case of invasion?
    To be fair to the bigoted old hypochondriac, he did live 3 miles from the tunnel entrance.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,094
    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    I remember sitting down with my dad as a youngster to watch the Tests with commentary from Benauld and Laker and both our hearts sank when Geoff bedded in for two days.
    Boycsball. That was proper cricket.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,104
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    noneoftheabove said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Judge says Albanian driving test fraudster can't be jailed as he deserves because 'His Majesty's prisons are full to bursting'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13792709/Judge-says-Albanian-fraudster-jailed-deserves-prisons-bursting.html

    Why isn't there an option to send someone to prison at a later date if prisons are currently full? I suppose because we have not previously had such a shambolic government as the last one, but we should look to give judges that power asap.
    Its quite common in other countries. Particularly for shorter sentences.
    They could delay the sentencing hearing now, I think.

    But yes - should be an options. As should much longer suspended sentence periods, so the perp gets a long-term Sword of Damocles.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,104
    kinabalu said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    ....

    ydoethur said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    What would England do without Joe Root constantly digging the dodgy batting lineup out the shit.

    Lose even more frequently.
    I was thinking just now actually does Joe have a good case to be England's greatest batsmen since the Second World War era? You could maybe make a case for Ken Barrington, and cases have been made for Kevin Pietersen, Peter May and Geoffrey Boycott, but in terms of his adaptability, flexibility, and sheer longevity I see Root as the pinnacle of them all since Compton and Hutton.
    Boycs and no Beefy?

    Peter May was a very dreary selector, but a great batsman.

    Compare and contrast the swashbuckling Petersen to paint-drying King Geoff. I don't watch cricket like I used to, but Boycs was never a Joe Root.

    Anyway all real batsmen wear Brylcreem!
    Botham was not a great batsman, although for the first ten years of his career he was definitely a Test-standard batsman even though he never passed the great exam of his era - a century against the Windies (highest score of 81).
    I remember sitting down with my dad as a youngster to watch the Tests with commentary from Benauld and Laker and both our hearts sank when Geoff bedded in for two days.
    Boycsball. That was proper cricket.
    The Tavare Tests.
This discussion has been closed.