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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ed Miliband’s “No EU Referendum” move might be less of a g

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I agree with Benedict Brogan's take on this:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100263341/ed-miliband-goes-from-uncertainty-to-confusion-on-eu-referendum/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    One thing that I haven't thought enough about yet is how the rest of the EU is likely to approach this development.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    That's what pees me off. Both Labour and the Tories are only concerned with the politics of it, never what's best for the country.
    To say that "no one gives a stuff about it" is also a little naive. Sure, it's not the sort of thing that will drive the majority of people's vote, but everyone I know has an opinion on it, and it is important. You just don't want the hassle of it.

    Indeed. It's like saying "nobody gives a stuff" about Scottish independence.

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335

    Oh, and the slavery legal action is completely bloody insane. It goes back literally 200 years. This is the same as if the British and French sued one another over damages in the Napoleonic Wars.

    It'd be despicable if the legal action won.

    It has no prospect of success. It's a negotiating ploy, by governments holding out the begging bowl.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

    What major inroads ? Today's Yougov has UKIP taking just 4% of 2010 Labour voters compared to 17% of 2010 Conservative voters .
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    @DavidL

    What the Telegraph does not say but the Mail does (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578724/Try-numeracy-test-experts-say-poor-maths-costing-economy-20bn-year.html) is that the Gold Level is equivalent to GCSE A*-C.

    This shows the ghastly grade inflation that has happened and you are even invited to use a calculator for what is just simple mental arithmetic. This test shows that 50% of the adult population has the numeracy ability of a primary school child.
    I would suspect that - even without grade inflation - that numeracy would decline post school these days, simply because everyone has a mobile or smartphone on them at all times. There is simply no reason to use your head for mental arithmitic, post primary education, any more.

    And like any other skill, lack of use will cause waning ability.

    What we can do about this is another matter altogether.

    The other day I was comparing an A Level maths paper from the early 1970s (http://www.mel-lambert.com/Ruskin/Artwork/Images/Neil_Graham/GCE_Exams/June-1970-Pure-Maths-2-3.jpg) and one from 2013 (http://www.mrbartonmaths.com/resources/A Level Past Papers/Core 1/2013 - Jan/AQA-MPC1-QP-JAN13.PDF) and what is remarkable is how little has changed. It's pretty much the same set of differential and integral calculus questions. That said, the more modern paper spells out much more exactly *how* the questions are to be answered (i.e. "use the remainder theorem") .
    I find it far quicker to do simple arithmetic in my head. And, with more complex sums, it's important to know roughly what answer to expect, if using a calculator.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Not sure if it has been publishd on here , ICM have done a Welsh VI poll for BBC Wales , tables are up on ICM website

    Westminster VI Lab 42 Con 24 Plaid 14 LD 9 UKIP 7
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's noise. In and Out are basically the same. Miliband seems to be trying Brown's 'five tests to join the euro' line (the first being the Archangel Gabriel descending to earth and telling Brown it was ok).

    We do need a referendum. Nobody has ever been asked if we wanted to cede so much sovereignty or join a political organisation that dreams of statehood. Decades ago some people were asked (after we joined) about remaining in a trade agreement. If you agree to be a roommate and then your landlord tries to shag you, you've got the right to rethink the arrangement.

    Yougov have put Out an average of 6% ahead, since the start of 2013. But it's been a volatile series of polls, ranging from a lead of 6% for out, to 17% for In.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    @DavidL

    What the Telegraph does not say but the Mail does (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578724/Try-numeracy-test-experts-say-poor-maths-costing-economy-20bn-year.html) is that the Gold Level is equivalent to GCSE A*-C.

    This shows the ghastly grade inflation that has happened and you are even invited to use a calculator for what is just simple mental arithmetic. This test shows that 50% of the adult population has the numeracy ability of a primary school child.
    I would suspect that - even without grade inflation - that numeracy would decline post school these days, simply because everyone has a mobile or smartphone on them at all times. There is simply no reason to use your head for mental arithmitic, post primary education, any more.

    And like any other skill, lack of use will cause waning ability.

    What we can do about this is another matter altogether.

    The other day I was comparing an A Level maths paper from the early 1970s (http://www.mel-lambert.com/Ruskin/Artwork/Images/Neil_Graham/GCE_Exams/June-1970-Pure-Maths-2-3.jpg) and one from 2013 (http://www.mrbartonmaths.com/resources/A Level Past Papers/Core 1/2013 - Jan/AQA-MPC1-QP-JAN13.PDF) and what is remarkable is how little has changed. It's pretty much the same set of differential and integral calculus questions. That said, the more modern paper spells out much more exactly *how* the questions are to be answered (i.e. "use the remainder theorem") .
    I find it far quicker to do simple arithmetic in my head. And, with more complex sums, it's important to know roughly what answer to expect, if using a calculator.
    I teach first years basic estimation techniques in week one or week two of the course. You've got some multiple term, scientific notation calculation with 10^23 and 10^-34 popping up all over the place, you probably want to know where you're aiming first.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

    What major inroads ? Today's Yougov has UKIP taking just 4% of 2010 Labour voters compared to 17% of 2010 Conservative voters .
    It depends what part of the country you're looking at. UKIP aren't featuring in Clydeside, or South Wales, and they aren't doing anything more than win some decent second places in English urban Labour strongholds.

    They are mopping up the traditional Labour vote in small working class towns in The South and East Anglia, and in London overspill estates.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

    What major inroads ? Today's Yougov has UKIP taking just 4% of 2010 Labour voters compared to 17% of 2010 Conservative voters .
    Rotherham, Middlesbrough, South Shields, and Wythenshawe and Sale East.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    @DavidL

    What the Telegraph does not say but the Mail does (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578724/Try-numeracy-test-experts-say-poor-maths-costing-economy-20bn-year.html) is that the Gold Level is equivalent to GCSE A*-C.

    This shows the ghastly grade inflation that has happened and you are even invited to use a calculator for what is just simple mental arithmetic. This test shows that 50% of the adult population has the numeracy ability of a primary school child.
    There is simply no reason to use your head for mental arithmitic, post primary education, any more.

    what is remarkable is how little has changed. It's pretty much the same set of differential and integral calculus questions. That said, the more modern paper spells out much more exactly *how* the questions are to be answered (i.e. "use the remainder theorem") .

    I agree with you about the decline in the need for mental arithmetic competence but exam questions that spell out how to answer the question are a huge simplification. As my Higher Maths teacher always used to say, Maths is a toolbox that you need to pick the right tools from. In real life, you will be faced with a problem that will require you to know the best Maths tools and if children aren't being trained in how to do that then its no wonder they think Maths is useless and has no real life application.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    I teach physical science to undergraduate students and I am/have been involved with supervising research students, I will happily state the levels of numeracy and literacy in our students at supposedly decent universities is shocking.

    The level of written English from my students in my year in a Grande Ecole in Paris was better than some of the students I've dealt with in the UK.

    I guess what depresses me more us the sense that they don't understand why its incorrect or what they're writing doesn't make sense. Well-used but formally 'incorrect' writing would be fine. This is typewriters and monkeys stuff.

    Numeracy though? They're scared of maths.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

    What major inroads ? Today's Yougov has UKIP taking just 4% of 2010 Labour voters compared to 17% of 2010 Conservative voters .
    Rotherham, Middlesbrough, South Shields, and Wythenshawe and Sale East.
    The Labour vote increased in Wythenshawe , you are indulging in wishful thinking fantasies .
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,753
    edited March 2014

    Not sure if it has been publishd on here , ICM have done a Welsh VI poll for BBC Wales , tables are up on ICM website

    Westminster VI Lab 42 Con 24 Plaid 14 LD 9 UKIP 7

    For comparison what was the Wales GE 2010 result?

    Having just looked myself:

    GE2010 Wales: Lab 36; Con 26; Plaid 11; LD 20; UKIP 2.4

    So the changes are Lab +6; Con -2; Plaid +3; LD - 11; UKIP +4.5
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Lennon said:

    Not sure if it has been publishd on here , ICM have done a Welsh VI poll for BBC Wales , tables are up on ICM website

    Westminster VI Lab 42 Con 24 Plaid 14 LD 9 UKIP 7

    For comparison what was the Wales GE 2010 result?
    2010: Lab: 36.2; Con. 26.1; LD20.1; PC. 11.3; UKIP. 2.4
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    It must be a shock to some but Europe as an issue has a low salience with the electorate, but for the Tory party it is an obsession,made all the worse because Cameron is a pro-European,leading a party of outers.
    The referendum proposal for 2017 exists as the failed attempt to resolve this and also failed miserably in shooting Ukip's fox.There is no reason Labour should play any part in this battle between the Tories and Ukip-let them bang on about Europe,no-one else is really interested.
    Let them cut each others' throats.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,991
    Financier said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    @DavidL

    What the Telegraph does not say but the Mail does (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578724/Try-numeracy-test-experts-say-poor-maths-costing-economy-20bn-year.html) is that the Gold Level is equivalent to GCSE A*-C.

    This shows the ghastly grade inflation that has happened and you are even invited to use a calculator for what is just simple mental arithmetic. This test shows that 50% of the adult population has the numeracy ability of a primary school child.

    In fact the Gold Level questions are far below the standard of my poor village school when we prepared for the 11+ , at a time when mental arithmetic was separated from written arithmetic.

    I have a workbook written by a girl of 8 dated 1843 who completed far harder questions than the Gold Level.

    No wonder we are bringing over maths teachers from Shanghai to show us what we had forgotten from the 1950s-1960s. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26533428) and the UK is split between the readers and non-readers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26515836).

    How much longer must we continue to fund teachers who cannot teach, schools that are not competent and teaching methods advocated by academic educationalists which are proven failures.

    Yet we expect our children to compete in a global economy when they finish their education!! At this rate the world will export its rubbish to the UK (instead of India and Africa) for recycling as that is all our descendants will be able to do.
    I must say I assumed it was a mental arithmetic test and did not consider using a calculator. It would be a bit sad if anyone with a reasonable education did.

    I intend to try it on my 10 year old tonight. I expect he would manage the silver questions but probably not the gold.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,753
    O/T but still in Wales - what do people think about LD Gain Montgomeryshire? Superficially it looks as though a number of Labour voters went Tory to get rid of Lembit in 2010, but I don't see them staying Tory.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Financier said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    @DavidL

    What the Telegraph does not say but the Mail does (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578724/Try-numeracy-test-experts-say-poor-maths-costing-economy-20bn-year.html) is that the Gold Level is equivalent to GCSE A*-C.

    This shows the ghastly grade inflation that has happened and you are even invited to use a calculator for what is just simple mental arithmetic. This test shows that 50% of the adult population has the numeracy ability of a primary school child.
    There is simply no reason to use your head for mental arithmitic, post primary education, any more.

    what is remarkable is how little has changed. It's pretty much the same set of differential and integral calculus questions. That said, the more modern paper spells out much more exactly *how* the questions are to be answered (i.e. "use the remainder theorem") .

    I agree with you about the decline in the need for mental arithmetic competence but exam questions that spell out how to answer the question are a huge simplification. As my Higher Maths teacher always used to say, Maths is a toolbox that you need to pick the right tools from. In real life, you will be faced with a problem that will require you to know the best Maths tools and if children aren't being trained in how to do that then its no wonder they think Maths is useless and has no real life application.
    I'm not sure that's true: you either know your calculus, or you don't. If you know what the remainder theorem is you would almost certainly have known it was relevent. If you did not, then you're stuffed both ways.

    There may be a small number of people who have memorised the theorem, and can use if and only if it is told to them that they need to use it, but I can't imagine there are that many of them.

    As a further aside, as someone who took A Level maths 22 years ago (roughly half way between the 1970 paper and the 2013 one), one thing that makes it easier is that the student knows exactly how many points are available for every question and every part of a question.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Breaking: sounds like we might see Charles' letters to ministers after all: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26544124
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,536
    edited March 2014
    If Labour are the Government in waiting, then really, they should demonstrate that in the Euro elections. But I am now more confident than ever that Labour will under-perform their Euro-election expectations (based on polling around the day) by at least 3-4%. Perhaps more. Which will put May 2015 up in the air.

    Truth is, there is no love out there for the Coalition, but equally, little enthusiasm for Labour to replace them. If this spring, England (in particular) could have a Primrose Revolution whose sole aim is sweeping away the established parties, they would storm in. Instead, we have a Primrose Hill junta. It will be UKIP's lot to never quite get critical mass to lead such a Primrose Revolution. Probably because they are an unstable amalgam of the new anti-politics and the worst of the old order.

    But Ed's return to Labour's typical "nanny-knows-best" about everything in your lives - negating the need for little things like asking people - now gives those who do want to kick all the parties in the knackers the perfect opportunity at the Euros. Just a pity there won't be hundreds of Buss-Pass Elvis candidates to shake things up.

    Quite what the consequences would be for Ed getting place-kicked in the plums, who knows? Maybe he will change his mind again and have to offer In-Out. Maybe Labour will realise that most seats (if not most votes) is the best it can hope for in 2015 - and alter its campaign accordingly. Maybe the mutterings about the "wrong Miliband" will surface again into a drone, playing underneath everything Labour tries to say.

    Most likely though, nothing very exciting will happen. Whilst the true English spirit could be summed up as "mustn't grumble", what that actually means is "Yes, we bloody well will grumble. We just can't be arsed to do anything about it."

    Where is the Can't Be Arsed Party in our hour of need?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    Those Daily Mail questions were not hard. All - with the exception of the TV one - could be done easily in the head.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,991

    Why on earth would anyone pay any credence to a YouGov poll? Their results bounce around more than a pogo stick. 10 minutes on any busy street stopping passers-by would tell a researcher....

    PB regular claims scientific polls are rubbish and voodoo polls better, sigh. Why do we bother?
    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    100% numerate. I so knew my PhD would prove useful one day.

    Gosh and you are in the Labour party too Nick! Why weren't you on the Treasury team? Oh, wait, maybe....;)

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    rcs1000 said:

    Those Daily Mail questions were not hard. All - with the exception of the TV one - could be done easily in the head.

    BTW, I found there was little increase in difficulty. In fact the kiddy ones were actually the hardest because you had to find the maths to frame them.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,954



    [previous postings edited]
    The Unionist parties should actually state that devolution has gone as far as it is going. If Westminster devolves any more powers to Holyrood then it might as well just give Scotland independence.

    Scots are vastly over represented by politicians. Assuming we get a NO vote, all 59 Westminster seats should be culled. Instead the 56 Regional MSPs should automatically represent Scotland at Westminster. Scottish MPs at Westminster frankly have little or nothing to do at Westminster if they are not involved in legislation which affects only England, Wales or NI so there is no need for 59 MPs and 129 MSPs for 5 million people. I am delighted to learn that there is likely to be a 25% cut in the number of councillors in some councils but alarmed at the suggestion of creating more in areas where there is "poverty". More councillors in areas where almost no-one votes is a monumental waste of money. Better to kick them up the arse and tell them to get a grip instead of constantly playing the victim. It really is time to get tough on Benefit Street.

    On one detail, I have to be sceptical about moving list MSPs down south in a No vote - (a) they were not elected for that. And even if/when they are, (b) it will cement a permanent dissonance between Westminster and Holyrood, because back in the 1990s Labour fiddled the Scottish parliament voting system on the Red Queen's Caucus Race principle, "all have won and must receive a prize" IIRC as Carroll said. And the regional list favours the unionist parties a great deal at the moment, assuming results similar to the last Scottish GE. So no way will the Unionist parties agree. That would also effectively impose a FPTP system with added knobs on in the Scottish Pmt, so imagine the howls from Labour, Tory and LD would be incessant at the prospect of a Holyrood SNP majority of about 85% or whatever it would be.

    And don't forget the West Lothian Question also affects Welsh and NI/English interactions.

    I also (genuinely) suspect the WLQ is a lot of nonsense, played up to whip up unionist hysteria in the DT and DM, given the pervasive consequentials from the Barnett formula (which will not be changed if we are to believe some of the No campaigners, but if it is to be scrapped we should be told ... ). I have never seen a proper analysis of how many acts of the Westminster parliament are really and truly only English. I have seen somewhere an analysis of 2012 legislation and the chap could only come up with about half a dozen that were without any Scottish implications, and they were pretty minor ones (though important for those affected, of course).

    The WLQ was of course coined by the Rt Hon Tam Dalyell MP - whose view on devolution, etc., is abolition of the Scottish Pmt (which is at least intellectually coherent, but hardly possible now.)
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Lennon said:

    O/T but still in Wales - what do people think about LD Gain Montgomeryshire? Superficially it looks as though a number of Labour voters went Tory to get rid of Lembit in 2010, but I don't see them staying Tory.

    Glyn Davies MP is a local man and very popular. In general Powys Council is ruled by various factions of Independents.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    UKIP have at best made minor inroads into the traditional Labour vote. They have made significant inroads into the Tory working class vote and to nonvoters. How many of these will actually turnout in May 2015 is yet to be seen. Many will just moan into their beer rather than vote. UKIP will remain Labours unwitting acomplices.

    Ed has done the right thing politically and for the country.

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. Carnyx, the West Lothian Question is entirely serious. It was Scottish votes that increased English tuition fees.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,753
    Financier said:

    Lennon said:

    O/T but still in Wales - what do people think about LD Gain Montgomeryshire? Superficially it looks as though a number of Labour voters went Tory to get rid of Lembit in 2010, but I don't see them staying Tory.

    Glyn Davies MP is a local man and very popular. In general Powys Council is ruled by various factions of Independents.

    Thanks - suspected in the wilds of Wales that local knowledge would matter more than big picture things - will look elsewhere for the unexpected 'LD Gain'
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,157
    On Sire De Grugy I've both backed him and covered stake to lay him for a place. I think he either wins comfortably or does an Irving - he is in great form but is very right handed ... can't tell which...

    Of course he'll probably finish 2nd or 3rd now ;)
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    rcs1000 said:

    Those Daily Mail questions were not hard. All - with the exception of the TV one - could be done easily in the head.

    My god, dividing by 0.8 is so hard? Dividing by 8/10, same as multiplying by 10/8, or 5/4, same as adding a quarter?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,180

    Mr. W, are you suggesting we could leave without a referendum?

    This is the stance UKIP should take. They're generally conservative in outlook, so there's no need for them to adopt continental innovations like referendums. You push for a referendum when you have a marginal cause that the mainstream reject. It's an easy way to move the ball up the field, because people who are lukewarm about X will support a referendum on X. But BOO is no longer a marginal position. The BOOers should aim for a majority in parliament, then let parliament decide.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. Crosby, I got the TV one wrong. In my defence, I was sleepy and added a fifth instead of a quarter (silly mistake, but there we are).
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Mr. W, are you suggesting we could leave without a referendum?

    This is the stance UKIP should take. They're generally conservative in outlook, so there's no need for them to adopt continental innovations like referendums. You push for a referendum when you have a marginal cause that the mainstream reject. It's an easy way to move the ball up the field, because people who are lukewarm about X will support a referendum on X. But BOO is no longer a marginal position. The BOOers should aim for a majority in parliament, then let parliament decide.
    Exactly right.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    RodCrosby said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Those Daily Mail questions were not hard. All - with the exception of the TV one - could be done easily in the head.

    My god, dividing by 0.8 is so hard? Dividing by 8/10, same as multiplying by 10/8, or 5/4, same as adding a quarter?
    I could get the TV one roughly right in my head - divide by 4, times by 5.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Why does everyone fixate on basic mental arithmetic as a test of maths?

    1) We have calculators to do these sums in real life now.
    2) There are many other important mathematical concepts that are not so amenable to being tested by newspapers (not least because the journalists writing the story almost certainly couldn't understand the questions).

    And yes, of course I did the Telegraph test and of course I got 100%.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,991

    Mr. Crosby, I got the TV one wrong. In my defence, I was sleepy and added a fifth instead of a quarter (silly mistake, but there we are).


    That was exactly the mistake I made. I will use the same excuse!

    @antifrank When I was at school we sat 2 "O" levels, one in arithmetic and one in maths. I agree this test is very much of the former category.


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    pinball13pinball13 Posts: 78
    BBC: Minimum wage to rise 3% to £6.50

    I was expecting a bit more than this.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Mr. W, are you suggesting we could leave without a referendum?

    This is the stance UKIP should take. They're generally conservative in outlook, so there's no need for them to adopt continental innovations like referendums. You push for a referendum when you have a marginal cause that the mainstream reject. It's an easy way to move the ball up the field, because people who are lukewarm about X will support a referendum on X. But BOO is no longer a marginal position. The BOOers should aim for a majority in parliament, then let parliament decide.
    Exactly right.
    I agree with that:
    @atmikekayes3 2h
    @TimMontgomerie We wont get a ref under Cameron either. He is a proven liar, from pasties to environment; remember cast iron guaranties.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    pinball13 said:

    BBC: Minimum wage to rise 3% to £6.50

    I was expecting a bit more than this.

    Thats Cammo and Osbo taking the piss. What did expect?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    MikeK said:

    pinball13 said:

    BBC: Minimum wage to rise 3% to £6.50

    I was expecting a bit more than this.

    Thats Cammo and Osbo taking the piss. What did expect?
    What is UKIP's view on the job destroying minimum wage?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    How can a National Service be so dumb?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-26525149
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    WTF is up with Sky News, cutting away from Milliband to go to bloody adverts? Are they trying to push me back to the BBC?
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    MikeK said:

    How can a National Service be so dumb?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-26525149

    Cost, pure and simple. It costs a lot to retro fit fire suppression systems, the only stations I know with such systems are new-build.
    It doesn't look good, though, I'll grant you that.

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    pinball13pinball13 Posts: 78
    MikeK said:

    pinball13 said:

    BBC: Minimum wage to rise 3% to £6.50

    I was expecting a bit more than this.

    Thats Cammo and Osbo taking the piss. What did expect?
    I got sucked in by all the £7/hr talk in January dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540733/Minimum-wage-rise-7-George-Osborne-says-time-workers-enjoy-fruits-recovery.html
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,157
    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    He says its clear but I listen to the words and some Cadbury's confectionary springs to mind.

    http://corporate.cadburygiftsdirect.co.uk/products/486-cadbury-fudge-bar-box-of-60.aspx

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    Pulpstar said:

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    He says its clear but I listen to the words and some Cadbury's confectionary springs to mind.

    http://corporate.cadburygiftsdirect.co.uk/products/486-cadbury-fudge-bar-box-of-60.aspx

    His policy is that he will do whatever is politically expedient.
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    I have no idea what Milliband is proposing. He accepts that the EU has to change, reform, but doesn't tell us why, how or what.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682

    I have no idea what Milliband is proposing. He accepts that the EU has to change, reform, but doesn't tell us why, how or what.

    Miliband does not believe the EU needs to change, reform or anything else. Miliband believes that the words he says are the words most likely to lead him to electoral victory.

    Miliband is Wilson.

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,122
    I doubt Ed Miliband's "No Referendum" pledge will change much in terms of voting intention, but it makes Milliband look very undemocratic and part of the arrogant governing elite - Which we all knew he was, but you'd have thought he'd want to keep that fact hidden from the electorate until he was in Downing St...
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    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Moniker

    You forget to add Fantasy Island Central to your list.
    Here's a clue: the numbers are available in the daily YouGov poll.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,668
    The Mail's take on the Co-op mess. I expected it not to be too complementary of the group, and in an astounding and unbelievable reversal of form, I was right! ;-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2578821/ALEX-BRUMMER-The-Co-op-scandal-proves-Left-trusted-run-whelk-stall.html
    He found himself facing down an organisation run by Left-wing committees more interested in pursuing a socialist, Labour-supporting agenda and engaging in political causes than in creating a solid business.
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    TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    edited March 2014
    Kaye Hoey says Milliband is an undemocratic fudger, and will change his mind. I don't think he will.
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    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Ozzy really is a first-class chump when it comes to politics. Why advertise the £7 NMW if he wasn't going to follow through? He's just made the thing into a negative story when it need not have been.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,536
    For those who haven't seen the reverential Matt's take on Bob Crow....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Cleggo taking PMQ's today as the PM is in the middle east.

    Expect open toed holiday footwear to feature, which will of course be a breeze for the sandal loving party of old.
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    The Mail's take on the Co-op mess. I expected it not to be too complementary of the group, and in an astounding and unbelievable reversal of form, I was right! ;-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2578821/ALEX-BRUMMER-The-Co-op-scandal-proves-Left-trusted-run-whelk-stall.html

    He found himself facing down an organisation run by Left-wing committees more interested in pursuing a socialist, Labour-supporting agenda and engaging in political causes than in creating a solid business.
    At this rate the Co-op will soon be a distant memory, like Woolworths and Comet.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,397
    Pulpstar said:

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    Seems clear to me.
    1. If there's a discussion of a Treaty in the next Parliament, then he'd favour the changes he mentioned (slower transition, less access to benefits).
    2. However, he doesn't expect a Treaty in 2015-20.
    3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.

    Seems clear, whether one agrees or not. The changes he proposes are not large. He's almost certainly right that there won't be a Treaty before 2020, and if there is it's unlikely we'd agree to one that surrenders more powers. However, if we did, there'd be an in/out referendum.

    Obviously doesn't meet the demands of folk who want a referendum with or without a treaty. Nor, at present, does Cameron, since he's clinging to the line that he "hopes" there will be a Treaty to vote on in 2017, and hasn't said what he'll do if there isn't. That's the Cadbury's policy, which will presumably be modified before 2015 since by then it will be really obvious that we're not 2 years from a Treaty to vote on.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I enjoyed John Rentoul's summary of Ed Miliband's referendum position:

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/03/12/“no-we-don’t-want-an-in-out-referendum”-ed-miliband-right-first-time/

    "Today is a triumph of media management for Miliband. He wanted the headline “Labour favours EU referendum” and managed (mostly) to get the opposite."
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,668

    The Mail's take on the Co-op mess. I expected it not to be too complementary of the group, and in an astounding and unbelievable reversal of form, I was right! ;-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2578821/ALEX-BRUMMER-The-Co-op-scandal-proves-Left-trusted-run-whelk-stall.html

    He found himself facing down an organisation run by Left-wing committees more interested in pursuing a socialist, Labour-supporting agenda and engaging in political causes than in creating a solid business.
    At this rate the Co-op will soon be a distant memory, like Woolworths and Comet.


    I sincerely hope that isn't the case. But it does look as though the group's upper echelons at least are not fit for purpose. It could become a political hot potato for Labour or the coalition: the former for the obvious reasons, the latter if there is the sniff of some form of desperate bail out of the group.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @NickPalmer

    Nick, give us the password if you've been enticed by some KGB honey trap into betraying the secrets of PB ??

    Is Mike Smithson's vast organ at risk ? ....

    Password .... you've forgot the password ....

    Vote Anna Soubry.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "The search for the missing Malaysia Airlines flight was descending into confusion and acrimony on Wednesday as Vietnam called off part of its search pending further information from Malaysia.

    Vietnam said it had halted its air search and scaled back a sea search while it waited for Malaysia to offer more detail.

    Asked about the claim that the plane had last been detected over the Strait of Malacca – suggesting it had crossed the entire peninsula – he replied: “We’ve asked Malaysian authorities twice but so far they have not replied to us.

    “We informed Malaysia on the day we lost contact with the flight that we noticed the flight turned back west but Malaysia did not respond.”


    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/12/malaysia-airlines-search-mired-in-confusion-over-planes-final-path
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    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    In similar vein, here is an 11+ interview question asked of candidates by North London Collegiate School:

    Without using a calculator, pencil or paper, what's the sum of all the integers under 100?

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    4900?

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    In similar vein, here is an 11+ interview question asked of candidates by North London Collegiate School:

    Without using a calculator, pencil or paper, what's the sum of all the integers under 100?

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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,753
    edited March 2014

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    In similar vein, here is an 11+ interview question asked of candidates by North London Collegiate School:

    Without using a calculator, pencil or paper, what's the sum of all the integers under 100?

    I think that technically that should be "what's the sum of all the positive integers under 100"

    (Oh, and 4950 of course, but it's a good 'how to approach this problem' question)
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 77,800
    edited March 2014
    The man from Martyrs Avenue who became a suicide bomber in Syria

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26452992

    Wow, that is some serious soft soaping, rewriting of history and omission.

    Portrayed as a regular guy from suburbia, steady job, kids, etc...who just happened to decide to help out the rebels in Syria. Making only the most passing reference of a life involved in close association with many extremists, who he only happened to know because he grew up in the same town, including the classic quote

    My brother was not fully involved with Al-Muhajiroun," says Hafeez Majeed.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. Bond, is it 100 x 49 plus 50?

    1 + 99 = 100
    2 + 98 = 100
    etc for 49 pairs.
    49 x 2 is just 98 and 1-99 has 99 numbers, obviously, so one more is left over (50, I think. Still sleepy, so I could well be wrong).
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Don't know if posted before but Hopi Sen rather marvellously nails all 4 parties on the EU:

    http://hopisen.com/?p=6156

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,954
    edited March 2014

    Mr. Carnyx, the West Lothian Question is entirely serious. It was Scottish votes that increased English tuition fees.

    But how typical is that? Or is that an exception? (It was of course Unionist parties who used those votes, but that's not in itself an answer to the problem, of course.)

    I would also need to check the Barnett implications of that vote also, and of course the Scots are having to cope with the consequences at a number of levels.

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Gauss was the smart 8 year old who messed up his teacher's day with that problem:

    http://nrich.maths.org/2478
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Michael Fabricant, with a straight face, in the HoC ...

    "What a shame the party opposite didn't repair the roof when the sun was shining ...."

    Titters ....
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    On this morning's mathematics issue aside from some fairly basic statistics how much mathematics taught beyond the third form does the average person need to know? Most people in most jobs can get through life quite happily with just primary school arithmatic. Of course being able to do sums mentally at least to estimation standard would stop them getting ripped off as would an understanding of percentages and a better understanding of statistics might help in stopping politicians and lobby groups getting away with some of their more blatant misrepresentations. So if 50% of the adult population has the mathematical ability expected of 14 year olds or even 11 year olds, is that in itself a terrible thing.

    The problem lies perhaps with the fact that without a solid training in mid-level mathematics so many professions and well paying jobs are going to be closed to otherwise bright children. Poor teaching of basic maths will blight the career prospects of many youngsters, perhaps that is where the scandal lies.

    What should be taught is up for debate, but I note up-thread that the current A level paper still has emphasis on calculus. Why? The number of people that will need to be able to use Calculus in their lives is very small. The number of people who will benefit from Statistics is much much larger, in fact for an educated person it is probably universal. Yet Stats is an option and Calculus is a core subject. Being able to do Calculus seems to be the mathematical community's machismo, a rite of passage. It is of no more practical value than my own beloved number theory. Surely, like Complex Analysis calculus could be shuffled up to Uni and its place taken with subjects that will be of more direct use to more students. Its time that the mathematical education establishment joined the modern world.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Mr. Bond, is it 100 x 49 plus 50?

    1 + 99 = 100
    2 + 98 = 100
    etc for 49 pairs.
    49 x 2 is just 98 and 1-99 has 99 numbers, obviously, so one more is left over (50, I think. Still sleepy, so I could well be wrong).

    Or triangle numbers so 1/2*n*n+1 for n = 99
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    In similar vein, here is an 11+ interview question asked of candidates by North London Collegiate School:

    Without using a calculator, pencil or paper, what's the sum of all the integers under 100?

    5050

    (100*101)/2


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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Doh! Forgot to add the 50; but same logic.

    Mental arithmetic matters. It is good mental exercise and helps with understanding statistics, which for most of us is more useful than pure maths.

    Reading a spreadsheet, and spotting anomalies, is a core skill for many jobs. I do it all the time for my research and management roles.

    Mr. Bond, is it 100 x 49 plus 50?

    1 + 99 = 100
    2 + 98 = 100
    etc for 49 pairs.
    49 x 2 is just 98 and 1-99 has 99 numbers, obviously, so one more is left over (50, I think. Still sleepy, so I could well be wrong).

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    On the subject of maths: There's only 10 kinds of people who understand Binary, those who do and those who don't!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. Carnyx, doesn't matter how typical it is, particularly when the SNP to specifically discriminate against the non-Scottish British in this area if they get independence.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited March 2014

    DavidL said:

    Ok, here is the morning challenge: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/10690391/Can-you-pass-the-National-Numeracy-Challenge.html

    I got caught out on the last one which teaches me the peril of having my wife do my VAT books for me!

    In similar vein, here is an 11+ interview question asked of candidates by North London Collegiate School:

    Without using a calculator, pencil or paper, what's the sum of all the integers under 100?

    5050

    (100*101)/2


    Well if i'd read the question correctly I would have said:

    (99*100)/2 = 4950

    That'll teach me to skim read questions...

    (derived from the formula N(N+1)/2)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,157

    Pulpstar said:

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    Seems clear to me.
    1. If there's a discussion of a Treaty in the next Parliament, then he'd favour the changes he mentioned (slower transition, less access to benefits).
    2. However, he doesn't expect a Treaty in 2015-20.
    3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.

    Seems clear, whether one agrees or not. The changes he proposes are not large. He's almost certainly right that there won't be a Treaty before 2020, and if there is it's unlikely we'd agree to one that surrenders more powers. However, if we did, there'd be an in/out referendum.

    Obviously doesn't meet the demands of folk who want a referendum with or without a treaty. Nor, at present, does Cameron, since he's clinging to the line that he "hopes" there will be a Treaty to vote on in 2017, and hasn't said what he'll do if there isn't. That's the Cadbury's policy, which will presumably be modified before 2015 since by then it will be really obvious that we're not 2 years from a Treaty to vote on.
    Hmm He is essentially betting on there being no treaty, so as his policy on the counterfactual can't be tested ?

    All well and good unless a treaty comes along. Then he's in a spot.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @NickPalmer

    '3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.'

    So absolutely unwilling / unable to argue the merits or not of the transfer of more power,just resort to an in/out referendum,what a crazy policy. .

  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    The Mail's take on the Co-op mess. I expected it not to be too complementary of the group, and in an astounding and unbelievable reversal of form, I was right! ;-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2578821/ALEX-BRUMMER-The-Co-op-scandal-proves-Left-trusted-run-whelk-stall.html

    He found himself facing down an organisation run by Left-wing committees more interested in pursuing a socialist, Labour-supporting agenda and engaging in political causes than in creating a solid business.
    At this rate the Co-op will soon be a distant memory, like Woolworths and Comet.
    I sincerely hope that isn't the case. But it does look as though the group's upper echelons at least are not fit for purpose. It could become a political hot potato for Labour or the coalition: the former for the obvious reasons, the latter if there is the sniff of some form of desperate bail out of the group.

    Why should a poorly run company be bailed out if the management are unable or unwilling to change? Haven't we learned the lessons of the past?
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    Mr. Bond, is it 100 x 49 plus 50?

    1 + 99 = 100
    2 + 98 = 100
    etc for 49 pairs.
    49 x 2 is just 98 and 1-99 has 99 numbers, obviously, so one more is left over (50, I think. Still sleepy, so I could well be wrong).

    Is the right answer.

    Phrased thus, to express the question is very nearly to state the answer. The positive integers under are 1 to 99; 1 and 99 make a pair that adds to 100, as do 2 and 98, 3 and 97, etc.

    There are 49 such pairs ending at 49 and 51.

    So there are 49 hundreds and the 50, which is 4950.

    Another way to do it is to work out that the average number under 100 is 1 plus 99 over 2. If the average value is 50, the total is then 50 x 99, which is most easily found as 50 x 100 less 50.

    I'm pleased to say my daughter answered it correctly.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    North London Collegiate, btw, is one of the two best private girls schools in the country.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    We at PB are not numbers ....
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    This DPMQs doing a great job making PMQs worth listening to
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. Bond, huzzah! Tremble before the arithmetical awesomeness of Morris Dancer!

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am not Mr. Bond's daughter.

    F1: just a reminder that P1 and P2 will be at ungodly hours because the first race is in Australia. Also, the BBC seems to be posting a new preview video (discussion with Perry, Coulthard, Edwards and McNish) each weekday. Nothing too staggering, although McNish's comment on the Ferrari engine being a little thirsty could be important.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    "Flipflops" .... BINGO
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335
    rcs1000 said:

    North London Collegiate, btw, is one of the two best private girls schools in the country.

    I knew someone who came from a highly disfunctional family who managed to win a scholarship to North London Collegiate. Her father turned up with her to visit the school and vowed he'd never send her there because it was "full of y*ds."
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335
    john_zims said:

    @NickPalmer

    '3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.'

    So absolutely unwilling / unable to argue the merits or not of the transfer of more power,just resort to an in/out referendum,what a crazy policy. .

    Or alternatively, he'll just announce that the Treaty doesn't transfer any powers, so no referendum is needed.

    I agree with other posters that the best strategy is to secure a Parliamentary majority of MPs who wish to pull out of the EU.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    North London Collegiate, btw, is one of the two best private girls schools in the country.

    I knew someone who came from a highly disfunctional family who managed to win a scholarship to North London Collegiate. Her father turned up with her to visit the school and vowed he'd never send her there because it was "full of y*ds."
    Was that SeanT's daughter?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,122
    edited March 2014
    Lib-Lab coalition negotiations going well I see, LOL.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    Seems clear to me.
    1. If there's a discussion of a Treaty in the next Parliament, then he'd favour the changes he mentioned (slower transition, less access to benefits).
    2. However, he doesn't expect a Treaty in 2015-20.
    3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.

    Seems clear, whether one agrees or not. The changes he proposes are not large. He's almost certainly right that there won't be a Treaty before 2020, and if there is it's unlikely we'd agree to one that surrenders more powers. However, if we did, there'd be an in/out referendum.

    Obviously doesn't meet the demands of folk who want a referendum with or without a treaty. Nor, at present, does Cameron, since he's clinging to the line that he "hopes" there will be a Treaty to vote on in 2017, and hasn't said what he'll do if there isn't. That's the Cadbury's policy, which will presumably be modified before 2015 since by then it will be really obvious that we're not 2 years from a Treaty to vote on.
    All well and good unless a treaty comes along. Then he's in a spot.

    Real paucity of ambition from Ed.

    The EU was such a great success during the Credit Crunch of course that there can be no possible improvements that anyone could suggest. And we now have a eurozone bloc that will be able to impose its will on the non-euro countries and come up with all sorts of regulation to disadvantage the outsider countries.

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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,682
    JonathanD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I like to think I follow politics quite closely but can anyone explain to me in very basic simple English exactly what Ed Miliband's policy on Europe is ?

    Seems clear to me.
    1. If there's a discussion of a Treaty in the next Parliament, then he'd favour the changes he mentioned (slower transition, less access to benefits).
    2. However, he doesn't expect a Treaty in 2015-20.
    3. In the very unlikely event that there's a Treaty which transfers more power to Brussels, he'll put it to an in/out referendum.

    Seems clear, whether one agrees or not. The changes he proposes are not large. He's almost certainly right that there won't be a Treaty before 2020, and if there is it's unlikely we'd agree to one that surrenders more powers. However, if we did, there'd be an in/out referendum.

    Obviously doesn't meet the demands of folk who want a referendum with or without a treaty. Nor, at present, does Cameron, since he's clinging to the line that he "hopes" there will be a Treaty to vote on in 2017, and hasn't said what he'll do if there isn't. That's the Cadbury's policy, which will presumably be modified before 2015 since by then it will be really obvious that we're not 2 years from a Treaty to vote on.
    All well and good unless a treaty comes along. Then he's in a spot.

    Real paucity of ambition from Ed.

    The EU was such a great success during the Credit Crunch of course that there can be no possible improvements that anyone could suggest. And we now have a eurozone bloc that will be able to impose its will on the non-euro countries and come up with all sorts of regulation to disadvantage the outsider countries.

    Yeah, but that cuts both ways. Non Eurozone countries can block a banking union in the EZ. Without banking union the EZ will not survive the next crisis.
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    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    North London Collegiate, btw, is one of the two best private girls schools in the country.

    I knew someone who came from a highly disfunctional family who managed to win a scholarship to North London Collegiate. Her father turned up with her to visit the school and vowed he'd never send her there because it was "full of y*ds."
    That must be some time ago. It's now full of Asians.

    One day quite soon, through prejudice against private education, Labour will try to gerrymander university admission to make it harder for privately-schooled children to get in. They will then enter a cognitive-dissonance-induced fugue as they find that to stack the deck against privately-schooled children is to stack the deck against Asians. But that's another thread. That I'll stay out of.

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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,122
    JackW said:

    "Flipflops" .... BINGO

    I have been away from PB for some time and haven't been keeping abreast of developments, so could you tell me how your ARSE is looking please?

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,129
    Mr. 1000, won't happen.

    Miliband (or Cameron, alas) would claim the banking union doesn't transfer powers away from us (true de jure but not de facto) and therefore doesn't warrant a vote.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    BobaFett said:

    Am I the only one who thinks Ed forcing Europe back on to the agenda may be quite smart? The Tories below are already fighting about it. Ideal scenario for Labour is that this continues for the next year or so which, given that Tories like nothing more than battling like cats in a sack about an issue nobody gives a stuff about, is perfectly possible, if not (yet) probable.

    UKIP has been making major inroads into the traditional Labour vote, EdM's No to a referendum will accelerate that trend. An election losing error from Ed.

    Perhaps this was aimed at the LDs "party of in" EU campaign?

    Hanging on to their 2010 LD switchers seems to be Labour's GE plan. Courting current-LD supporters, and preventing the LD's from pealing off current-Labour, is a necessary part of that.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,335
    It's worth addressing Tim Montgomerie's point in the original post.

    UKIP currently has the support of c.13% of voters. UKIP does not own these votes, and UKIP cannot gift them to the Conservatives, even supposing it wished to.

    Only 45% of UKIP's supporters voted Conservative in 2010. 55% voted for other parties, or didn't vote at all. If UKIP stopped contesting elections, that 55% would vote for other parties, or not vote at all. Probably most of the 45% would return to the Conservative fold, but some would stay at home.

    UKIP's vote would probably split something like Con 30%, Lib Dem 15%, Lab 10%. That would help the Conservatives at the margins (and some seats will be won or lost at the margins) but would certainly not be decisive.

    Over and above that, if UKIP were to disappear, the Conservative Party would have absolutely no reason to offer anything to voters who wish to pull out of the EU. The only way to get anything out of the Conservative Party is to hold their feet to the fire.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Clegg attacking Labour with some relish.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    "Flipflops" .... BINGO

    I have been away from PB for some time and haven't been keeping abreast of developments, so could you tell me how your ARSE is looking please?

    Pert

This discussion has been closed.