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When assumptions go wrong – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited July 4 in General
When assumptions go wrong – politicalbetting.com

Around 15% of voters say they are still undecided. Which way are they leaning, asks @TomHCalver ? pic.twitter.com/Onyt3QB6KH

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Comments

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069
    Second?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    ...
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    As I have continually pointed out from the day the election was called - given how disliked this Government is why were people expecting swingback - there were hundreds of reasons why it wouldn’t occur.

    And yes I know we have some examples of swing back occurring but there are always a tiny number of exceptions, which may be more vocal
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    That split would break pretty much in line with the existing VI in The Survation MRP so nothing would essentially change other than LabCon would perhaps pull a further 1% away from LibRef. 22 to 14 is in line with a 15 to 16 point lead. It would knock a couple % off the lead of the wider lead polls.
    Interesting that the lead in the MiC. Surv and YG MRPs is smaller than their regular polling with a higher Tory share
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    I don't know if anyone read Tony Blair on trans issues yesterday but really worth reading........

    Then the idiot article by Michael Deacon ridiculing it. (Does anyone under 80 well into their second childhood still read the Telegraph?)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/18/tony-blair-trans-rights-madness/

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The LDs can define as many targets as they wish as part of their ramping.

    But not that many of those seats feature on the Independent's tactical voting map, which is here. "Analysis by the Independent uses YouGov's MRP projections to find which projected Tory seats have the smallest margins between the second party. Constituencies with a <10% margin are identified as top seats where tactical voting could be used."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-the-top-seats-for-tactical-voting-on-july-4th-b2558136.html
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,053
    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    Be interesting to see polling of the Tory membership on whether they would want farage as leader
  • Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Not sure I agree the strategy was foisted on him by others, and it'll be interesting to hear versions of events when autobiographies get written in due course. The impression I get is he started with the strategy you describe, then panicked when it wasn't shifting the polls.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627
    I would have thought the most likely outcome for a big chunk of that 43% is not voting at all. If they've got so far and are still uncertain...
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659
  • Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,627

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    I hope you got permission for that one.

    If you made it without Clarence, you're in trouble.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Wouldn’t Rishi be better campaigning as the anti-Rishi?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    ydoethur said:

    I would have thought the most likely outcome for a big chunk of that 43% is not voting at all. If they've got so far and are still uncertain...

    Also, "Don't Know" sounds better in a questionnaire than "Won't Vote". If the second is even available as an option.

    Are the telly listings for July 4 out yet?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    It was difficult to do after his pantomime over Rwanda. After appearing as Suella's stooge no one could trust his instincts or judgement. Looking like Farage light was no way to go into an election as has been proved
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    Taz said:

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.

    Exceptional barcharting here

    https://x.com/TomChivers/status/1802750989226631476
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    People love grown men acting like a child as the country declines into a fecal mess
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    ydoethur said:

    I would have thought the most likely outcome for a big chunk of that 43% is not voting at all. If they've got so far and are still uncertain...

    I am showing up in the polls (not this one) as undecided, but will definitely vote. I don't think I am the only one on this board.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481

    ydoethur said:

    I would have thought the most likely outcome for a big chunk of that 43% is not voting at all. If they've got so far and are still uncertain...

    Also, "Don't Know" sounds better in a questionnaire than "Won't Vote". If the second is even available as an option.

    Are the telly listings for July 4 out yet?
    No Euros football
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Sunak's first and greatest error was to believe his popularity during covid was about him rather than the cash he splashed at a time of national emergency and massive financial insecurity. He's always thought he could rekindle something that never existed.

  • Taz said:

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    Spare a thought, also, for the driver and the low paid cleaners who will have to deal with the mess.

    I worked in a rail depot for a few years. It is not nice and happens more often than people think.
    Luckily there were several off duty staff and policeman who were able to go straight to the drivers aid. As you allude to, the cleaners will not have a nice task.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,731
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    That's Rutland and Stamford in gold at the top.

    No chance. Alicia Kearns will be one of the few blue survivors, though LDs could get a respectable second place.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    boulay said:

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Wouldn’t Rishi be better campaigning as the anti-Rishi?
    He's already tried that- see the National Insurance changes.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,112

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    People love grown men acting like a child as the country declines into a fecal mess
    Polling on the campaigns suggests that yes, yes they do.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    You had to go and bring up the trans issue, didn't you?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,446
    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    My reasoning is this.

    Taking the step to vote Labour or Lib Dem for a habitual Tory voter is a big step. If a voter cannot take that step in an opinion poll, then doing so in the polling booth is unlikely.

    Most voters are going to be angry about the actions of the party leadership, at Sunak and Truss. But when they vote it's the reassuring presence of their local Tory on the ballot paper. It's much easier to vote for the blameless local Tory than to support the party leadership. This is especially the case when the election outcome appears to be a forgone conclusion. Sunak won't be PM after the election anyway.

    Under FPTP most political campaigning becomes negative. Only a vote for y can stop x. At the end of the day if you're a core Tory voter, someone who makes up the 20-30% of their support total, who else are you going to vote for who will stop Labour from winning your seat? If your Tory vote was never a positive vote for the Tories, but a negative vote against Labour, then you're trapped into making that vote regardless of how poor the Tories are. And, anyway, this time the Tories are bound to lose, so your Tory vote won't prolong the disaster of the incumbent government, but will act to restrain the worst excesses of the inevitable Labour government.

    I think this is all enough to see the Tories back up to 29%. Their worst vote share ever, so not exactly a good result, but better than suggested by the opinion polls.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    Why are we obsessing with how the Undecideds will vote - isn't it most likely they will not vote at all?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    Because, for example, the BBC gets Justin Webb to interview him.

    But the real answer is that having someone who mirrors their prejudices, who hasn't been found out by being in government, allows the delusional cohort of the boomer generation to maintain for a while longer their fantasy of returning to an idealised version of the 1950s.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,544
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    People love grown men acting like a child as the country declines into a fecal mess
    Polling on the campaigns suggests that yes, yes they do.
    Plus there was that bloke in 2019. Whacky hair. Crazy stunts. No challenging interviews whatsoever.

    You remember... What became of him?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    That's Rutland and Stamford in gold at the top.

    No chance. Alicia Kearns will be one of the few blue survivors, though LDs could get a respectable second place.
    It will be an achievement if the LDs do well in the South-West.

    From what I have seen reported the recovery from the 2015 Mugging will be smaller than might be expected.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Sunak's first and greatest error was to believe his popularity during covid was about him rather than the cash he splashed at a time of national emergency and massive financial insecurity. He's always thought he could rekindle something that never existed.

    He's a very odd man, as is his Chancellor. The obsession with NI cuts when literally nobody wants that, get the thresholds moving, cut the main rate, axe IHT, do something, but no, we get the wanky technocrat solution, pulling yet another lump of arse expulsion from a smelly old cap and expecting us to clap like morons. They aren't even technocrats, they are a bad caricature of technocrats in a one night only Fringe show that sold no tickets. Grrrrrrrrrr
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,503
    Alien calls out Predator’s nasty ways.

    Presumably this means for the moment an end to the rapprochement between Israel and the civilised(sic) states of the Middle East?

    https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1802962262077874353?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    A clue to Britain's productivity problem.

    Investment in UK has trailed other G7 countries since mid-1990s, IPPR says
    Institute for Public Policy Research urges Labour and Conservatives to reverse planned cuts
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/18/investment-in-uk-has-trailed-other-g7-countries-since-mid-1990s-ippr-says
    Investment in the UK has trailed other G7 countries including the US and Germany since the mid-1990s, according to a report that urges Labour and the Conservatives to reverse planned cuts to investment or risk long-term damage to economic growth.

    The Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank found the UK was bottom of the G7 league for investment in 24 out of the last 30 years, using figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)...

    ...The figures show the turning point was the period after the early 1990s recession, which was followed by a severe property crash and Black Wednesday, when Britain was forced to hurriedly exit from the EU’s exchange rate mechanism. Ever since, growth in private sector investment has tracked below all the G7 countries except in three of the 24 years...

    I think @Gardenwalker put it well when he said we seem to have an allergy to capital investment in this country.

    It's like we look down our noses at it or something and see it as a waste of money.
    It's why the HS2 decision was such a terrible one. We need public investment to attract private sector investment and to create productive jobs. But this also means that we have yet more pressure to reduce current expenditure to create room for it. When you are already borrowing almost £100bn a year to meet current expenditure it is inevitable that capital investment is cut.

    I think Reeves gets the importance of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXlqAKCei0

    But I am cautious as to whether Labour will be willing to make the hard decisions necessary to free the capacity to make that investment.
    Probably not, since people vote on sweeties for the here and now and not the future.

    They'd see it as wasted money that could be spent on their pension, tax cuts or the NHS etc.

    To overcome that, politicians need to lead and make brave arguments, as you say.
    A massive majority should make a leader more willing to be brave and take some tough decisions for the long term.

    Yet I fear it is usually squandered, or wasted on trivialities.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Roger said:

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    It was difficult to do after his pantomime over Rwanda. After appearing as Suella's stooge no one could trust his instincts or judgement. Looking like Farage light was no way to go into an election as has been proved
    Agreed. The story of this election is probably the Tories being spooked by Nigel Farage. Suella at the Home Office. The Rwanda farce (originally opposed by Sunak). The early election was called, it is said, to wrongfoot RefUK, even though CCHQ was no more prepared so we had the farce of Cabinet Ministers plucking policy from thin air as they espoused National Service on the airwaves. Do I detect the influence of Lord Cameron, similarly running afraid of Ukip a decade back?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    My gut would have said undecided voters, if they do not stay home, would go with the flow, and thus break more for Labour.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    People love grown men acting like a child as the country declines into a fecal mess
    Polling on the campaigns suggests that yes, yes they do.
    I think 'love' might be an overreach. Some enjoy his antics for sure, I'm definitely not one of them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    That rather ignores the fact that he was Boris's Chancellor.

    Still, as boulay says, perhaps he would have been better off campaigning against himself.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,528
    kle4 said:

    My gut would have said undecided voters, if they do not stay home, would go with the flow, and thus break more for Labour.

    Your gut needs kefir

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Why are we obsessing with how the Undecideds will vote - isn't it most likely they will not vote at all?

    And anyway there aren't so many 2019 Tory undecideds as there once were. Only 11% according to the latest R&W. People have been deciding over the course of the campaign, and the ones that still can't may as you say end up not bothering.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,470
    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    True. But occasionally they do ask and he just blabbers about 'not being the right brexit' and 'it's been messed up by the civil service/politicians' etc etc. Not his Brexit basically.

    Snakeoil salesman basically.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    That's Rutland and Stamford in gold at the top.

    No chance. Alicia Kearns will be one of the few blue survivors, though LDs could get a respectable second place.
    It will be an achievement if the LDs do well in the South-West.

    From what I have seen reported the recovery from the 2015 Mugging will be smaller than might be expected.
    That has been the story of every election since then.

    Maybe they ride the red wave and get a breakthrough, but maybe they lose out because of the same as Labour surge to second in loads of rural southern seats.

    The Tories certainly are praying for the latter.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    Nigelb said:

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    That rather ignores the fact that he was Boris's Chancellor.

    Still, as boulay says, perhaps he would have been better off campaigning against himself.
    So what? Starmer sat alongside Corbyn. It is not as if Rishi and Boris were intellectual soulmates rather than a partnership accidentally created when The Saj stood up to Dominic Cummings.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    My reasoning is this.

    Taking the step to vote Labour or Lib Dem for a habitual Tory voter is a big step. If a voter cannot take that step in an opinion poll, then doing so in the polling booth is unlikely.

    Most voters are going to be angry about the actions of the party leadership, at Sunak and Truss. But when they vote it's the reassuring presence of their local Tory on the ballot paper. It's much easier to vote for the blameless local Tory than to support the party leadership. This is especially the case when the election outcome appears to be a forgone conclusion. Sunak won't be PM after the election anyway.

    Under FPTP most political campaigning becomes negative. Only a vote for y can stop x. At the end of the day if you're a core Tory voter, someone who makes up the 20-30% of their support total, who else are you going to vote for who will stop Labour from winning your seat? If your Tory vote was never a positive vote for the Tories, but a negative vote against Labour, then you're trapped into making that vote regardless of how poor the Tories are. And, anyway, this time the Tories are bound to lose, so your Tory vote won't prolong the disaster of the incumbent government, but will act to restrain the worst excesses of the inevitable Labour government.

    I think this is all enough to see the Tories back up to 29%. Their worst vote share ever, so not exactly a good result, but better than suggested by the opinion polls.
    The local Tory candidate who is a 'reassuring presence' died a few decades ago, has left the party, is in the House of Lords, has a career in finance, is on LBC or Times Radio, lost the whip under Boris, and so on. I am not reassured at all by my Tory candidate, and the one who looks like a Tory candidate is standing (slightly dynastically, but this is Cumberland) under the Labour banner. The Rear Admiral Morgan-Giles types are also mostly coming out for Labour.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    On reflection the only thing that might have worked was for Rishi was to come clean and admit that his Party got Brexit wrong. It could have worked. Starmer has U-turned on just about everything and it's working for him and more importantly no-one had yet picked up the unbrexit batton.

    Whether or not it would have helped is difficult to say but he certainly wouldn't be floundering where he is and it would have burst Farage's bubble at embryo stage.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    edited June 18

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Sunak's first and greatest error was to believe his popularity during covid was about him rather than the cash he splashed at a time of national emergency and massive financial insecurity. He's always thought he could rekindle something that never existed.

    He's a very odd man, as is his Chancellor. The obsession with NI cuts when literally nobody wants that, get the thresholds moving, cut the main rate, axe IHT, do something, but no, we get the wanky technocrat solution, pulling yet another lump of arse expulsion from a smelly old cap and expecting us to clap like morons. They aren't even technocrats, they are a bad caricature of technocrats in a one night only Fringe show that sold no tickets. Grrrrrrrrrr
    There's nothing wrong in principle with cutting employee's NI. At the right moment it would be a good thing and get my support although I don't benefit from it.

    But now is patently *not* the right time. Public services are down the shitter and this affects most people a zillion times more than 2% on NI, or IHT ffs!

    As my self-employed plumber brother said... I'd rather have the potholes fixed and be able to get a GP's appointment when I need one than NI reduced.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    @Peter_the_Punter if the Tory vote splits between Conservatives and Reform then seats like Hampshire North East and North West could come into play for the LDs.

    I'm starting to detect anecdotal evidence of this.

    Kit Malthouse is perceived as lazy and taking the constituency for granted locally, in strong contrast to Sir George Young, and Ranil J is no James Arbuthnot either - and slightly odd.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462
    Rejoice! ;)

    "The UK’s main stock market retook its crown as Europe’s most valuable for the first time in nearly two years, data shows."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqee1vpe3deo
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358

    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    True. But occasionally they do ask and he just blabbers about 'not being the right brexit' and 'it's been messed up by the civil service/politicians' etc etc. Not his Brexit basically.

    Snakeoil salesman basically.
    “Aha!” you might say, “but it’s not his version of Brexit, is it? And that’s the whole problem!” BZZZZT! WRONG! The Brexit we have, the one eventually pushed through by Boris Johnson in 2020, came with Farage’s explicit endorsement. “The war is over,” he wrote. “We won.” Which, given it was also a war he arguably started, you might think ought to make him responsible for the subsequent peace.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    A clue to Britain's productivity problem.

    Investment in UK has trailed other G7 countries since mid-1990s, IPPR says
    Institute for Public Policy Research urges Labour and Conservatives to reverse planned cuts
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/18/investment-in-uk-has-trailed-other-g7-countries-since-mid-1990s-ippr-says
    Investment in the UK has trailed other G7 countries including the US and Germany since the mid-1990s, according to a report that urges Labour and the Conservatives to reverse planned cuts to investment or risk long-term damage to economic growth.

    The Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank found the UK was bottom of the G7 league for investment in 24 out of the last 30 years, using figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)...

    ...The figures show the turning point was the period after the early 1990s recession, which was followed by a severe property crash and Black Wednesday, when Britain was forced to hurriedly exit from the EU’s exchange rate mechanism. Ever since, growth in private sector investment has tracked below all the G7 countries except in three of the 24 years...

    I think @Gardenwalker put it well when he said we seem to have an allergy to capital investment in this country.

    It's like we look down our noses at it or something and see it as a waste of money.
    It's why the HS2 decision was such a terrible one. We need public investment to attract private sector investment and to create productive jobs. But this also means that we have yet more pressure to reduce current expenditure to create room for it. When you are already borrowing almost £100bn a year to meet current expenditure it is inevitable that capital investment is cut.

    I think Reeves gets the importance of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXlqAKCei0

    But I am cautious as to whether Labour will be willing to make the hard decisions necessary to free the capacity to make that investment.
    Probably not, since people vote on sweeties for the here and now and not the future.

    They'd see it as wasted money that could be spent on their pension, tax cuts or the NHS etc.

    To overcome that, politicians need to lead and make brave arguments, as you say.
    A massive majority should make a leader more willing to be brave and take some tough decisions for the long term.

    Yet I fear it is usually squandered, or wasted on trivialities.
    After the best part of 15 years out of office, I imagine the first term is spent learning how to do anything at all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    Roger said:

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    It was difficult to do after his pantomime over Rwanda. After appearing as Suella's stooge no one could trust his instincts or judgement. Looking like Farage light was no way to go into an election as has been proved
    It might have been has that been the consistent approach.

    But truth is he did not have that wing on boars from the start and they were never tempted to come back, and centrists were dropping away after 12 years and incompetence pushed them away harder.

    Farage and Starmer then exploited that to the max.

    And thus did the Conservative Party die; at a mere 190 years old.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    My reasoning is this.

    Taking the step to vote Labour or Lib Dem for a habitual Tory voter is a big step. If a voter cannot take that step in an opinion poll, then doing so in the polling booth is unlikely.

    Most voters are going to be angry about the actions of the party leadership, at Sunak and Truss. But when they vote it's the reassuring presence of their local Tory on the ballot paper. It's much easier to vote for the blameless local Tory than to support the party leadership. This is especially the case when the election outcome appears to be a forgone conclusion. Sunak won't be PM after the election anyway.

    Under FPTP most political campaigning becomes negative. Only a vote for y can stop x. At the end of the day if you're a core Tory voter, someone who makes up the 20-30% of their support total, who else are you going to vote for who will stop Labour from winning your seat? If your Tory vote was never a positive vote for the Tories, but a negative vote against Labour, then you're trapped into making that vote regardless of how poor the Tories are. And, anyway, this time the Tories are bound to lose, so your Tory vote won't prolong the disaster of the incumbent government, but will act to restrain the worst excesses of the inevitable Labour government.

    I think this is all enough to see the Tories back up to 29%. Their worst vote share ever, so not exactly a good result, but better than suggested by the opinion polls.
    I just don't think negative partisanship is as much a factor for Tories this election - that held them together when the threat was Corbyn and Corbynism - but Starmer just is not considered the same kind of threat to Tory voters; partly because Starmer isn't as left wing as Corbyn, partly because the media have not monstered Starmer as the next coming of Stalin as they did Corbyn.

    Whereas a lot of typically Tory voters do seem okay with the idea of "a bit of time in opposition" or even straight up abandoning the party. If you're a Cameroon then there is nothing to dislike about Starmer except his general authoritarian attitude to party management that may speak to what kind of government he'd run. If you're a Johnsonite Tory then Farage gives you what you want, and you don't care about the Tory Party surviving.

    I also don't think many people think fondly of their local Tory MP. I think that is mostly wishful thinking. An MP is a vote for the party whip - and when the Tory government has been such a failure any MP who followed the whip has questions to answer.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    People love grown men acting like a child as the country declines into a fecal mess
    Polling on the campaigns suggests that yes, yes they do.
    Plus there was that bloke in 2019. Whacky hair. Crazy stunts. No challenging interviews whatsoever.

    You remember... What became of him?
    I didn't go well, if I remember rightly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379

    Rejoice! ;)

    "The UK’s main stock market retook its crown as Europe’s most valuable for the first time in nearly two years, data shows."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqee1vpe3deo

    So it's basically neck and neck with the Paris Bourse having been worth $1.4tn more in 2016.

    Brexit bonus, eh?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,470

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    Sunak's first and greatest error was to believe his popularity during covid was about him rather than the cash he splashed at a time of national emergency and massive financial insecurity. He's always thought he could rekindle something that never existed.

    He's a very odd man, as is his Chancellor. The obsession with NI cuts when literally nobody wants that, get the thresholds moving, cut the main rate, axe IHT, do something, but no, we get the wanky technocrat solution, pulling yet another lump of arse expulsion from a smelly old cap and expecting us to clap like morons. They aren't even technocrats, they are a bad caricature of technocrats in a one night only Fringe show that sold no tickets. Grrrrrrrrrr
    There's nothing wrong in principle with cutting employee's NI. At the right moment it would be a good thing and get my support although I don't benefit from it.

    But now is patently *not* the right time. Public services are down the shitter and this affects most people a zillion times more than 2% on NI, or IHT ffs!

    As my self-employed plumber brother said... I'd rather have the potholes fixed and be able to get a GP's appointment when I need one than NI reduced.
    It's the final season of an exhausted, old show at the end of the pier and the audience don't want to hear the old hits anymore.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    The Tories should take the fight to Reform. Of course they should. But they can’t. Do it and the party very publicly splits. Braverman, Patel, Rees Mogg and co would all come out for Farage. They are hard right English nationalists. Just like him. The only thing that unites the Tories is being anti-Labour. It will be a bloodbath post-election.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    algarkirk said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
    No, no, no. This is an error pointed out by I think Deutscher again, thinking that having different rules from standard grammar is the same as having no rules. Who drowned Clarence? It was him/them is acceptable English, where Him/them drowned Clarence is not. It's just borderline non-standard; I speak pretty much received standard English and I would say it was him; it was he sounds prissy and hypercorrect.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,759

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    Be interesting to see polling of the Tory membership on whether they would want farage as leader
    Happily the rest of the country has a vote in GEs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    We could cut at least a third of the Covid enquiry, and just read this paper (and others like it) instead.

    Modelling the transmission mitigation impact of testing for infectious diseases
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adk5108
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    True. But occasionally they do ask and he just blabbers about 'not being the right brexit' and 'it's been messed up by the civil service/politicians' etc etc. Not his Brexit basically.

    Snakeoil salesman basically.
    “Aha!” you might say, “but it’s not his version of Brexit, is it? And that’s the whole problem!” BZZZZT! WRONG! The Brexit we have, the one eventually pushed through by Boris Johnson in 2020, came with Farage’s explicit endorsement. “The war is over,” he wrote. “We won.” Which, given it was also a war he arguably started, you might think ought to make him responsible for the subsequent peace.
    It isn't possible to get those actually running the country to take responsibility for anything at all. It is beyond imagining that Farage, who has never been in power or the Commons could take responsibility for anything at all either. That isn't how politics works.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,022
    Taz said:

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    Spare a thought, also, for the driver and the low paid cleaners who will have to deal with the mess.

    I worked in a rail depot for a few years. It is not nice and happens more often than people think.
    I understand if a driver has two such tragic incidents he is pensioned off on full pay

    We have had several such incidents on our North Wales rail line but also a terrible recent incident where a middle aged woman slashed her wrists on a promenade bench before staggering into the sea and eventually her body was recovered by the RNLI
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    Be interesting to see polling of the Tory membership on whether they would want farage as leader
    Happily the rest of the country has a vote in GEs.
    Not as to who leads the conservatives it doesn't. Except indirectly if you have a vote in Clacton
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962
    edited June 18
    If this is correct, it means Reform won't increase their share before the election.

    In fact none of the parties would change much but the Conservatives might rise by a percentage point.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    @Peter_the_Punter if the Tory vote splits between Conservatives and Reform then seats like Hampshire North East and North West could come into play for the LDs.

    I'm starting to detect anecdotal evidence of this.

    Kit Malthouse is perceived as lazy and taking the constituency for granted locally, in strong contrast to Sir George Young, and Ranil J is no James Arbuthnot either - and slightly odd.

    There are MPs in mega safe seats who work hard, but it would not be a shock if many naturally over time get a bit complacent. It's a generational event that it comes back to bite you, as many
    Scottish former Labour MPs could tell us
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    I see we have managed to pay one more person to go to Rwanda with 'maybe' one more later this week.
    That'll do it, that'll open the voting floodgates.
    I reckon we are a week from him saying 'fuck the courts' and piling a load of immigrants on a plane on Live TV
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    Simon Jupp is either fighting a very clever campaign in Honiton and Sidmouth, based on smart below the radar electioneering or he is fighting an entirely clueless one. The Tories are almost invisible here. II don't see their posters. I don't see their canvassers. I don't see their flyers. Where on earth are they? By contrast, Richard Foord and the LibDems are everywhere. It's bizarre.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    edited June 18

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    My reasoning is this.

    Taking the step to vote Labour or Lib Dem for a habitual Tory voter is a big step. If a voter cannot take that step in an opinion poll, then doing so in the polling booth is unlikely.

    Most voters are going to be angry about the actions of the party leadership, at Sunak and Truss. But when they vote it's the reassuring presence of their local Tory on the ballot paper. It's much easier to vote for the blameless local Tory than to support the party leadership. This is especially the case when the election outcome appears to be a forgone conclusion. Sunak won't be PM after the election anyway.

    Under FPTP most political campaigning becomes negative. Only a vote for y can stop x. At the end of the day if you're a core Tory voter, someone who makes up the 20-30% of their support total, who else are you going to vote for who will stop Labour from winning your seat? If your Tory vote was never a positive vote for the Tories, but a negative vote against Labour, then you're trapped into making that vote regardless of how poor the Tories are. And, anyway, this time the Tories are bound to lose, so your Tory vote won't prolong the disaster of the incumbent government, but will act to restrain the worst excesses of the inevitable Labour government.

    I think this is all enough to see the Tories back up to 29%. Their worst vote share ever, so not exactly a good result, but better than suggested by the opinion polls.
    I was a core Tory voter for 24 years.

    Then I couldn't bring myself to vote for them in 2017 and Did Not Vote.

    Then I voted for my local Labour candidate in 2019 *despite* Corbyn (I didn't believe Corbyn could win and wanted to support any Labour MPs that were not foursquare behind him so that wing wouldn't take over the Labour Party)

    Now I'm voting Labour again because I've had a decent dialogue with my local MP since then, and he's the best not-the-Tories game in town.

    I imagine this to be the story for a lot of people who will become DNVs this time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Nigelb said:

    Rishi's big mistake, or one of them anyway, is to campaign against Labour and Keir Starmer. Instead, Rishi should have learned from the man who delivered a thumping 80-seat majority after a decade of Tory rule, or chaos with Ed Miliband as I believe it was then known.

    Boris did not run against Corbyn's Labour. No, Boris ran against David Cameron and Theresa May. Get Brexit done. An end to austerity. Invest in infrastructure. Level up the north. 20,000 more coppers and 40 new hospitals.

    Rishi should have been the anti-Boris. No more parties. No more bumbling. A serious man for serious times. Instead Rishi accepted the faux Boris act foisted on him by those fuckwits at CCHQ and, whisper it, what Nigel Lawson called teenage scribblers brought into Number 10. It is the same mistake Gordon Brown made after Blair, and the same fate awaits.

    That rather ignores the fact that he was Boris's Chancellor.

    Still, as boulay says, perhaps he would have been better off campaigning against himself.
    So what? Starmer sat alongside Corbyn. It is not as if Rishi and Boris were intellectual soulmates rather than a partnership accidentally created when The Saj stood up to Dominic Cummings.
    Half the arguments in this election are economic ones. He can't divorce himself from his own legacy.
    The Starmer point is just whataboutery, since Labour weren't in government, and there's no legacy to defend.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,759
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.
    That's Rutland and Stamford in gold at the top.

    No chance. Alicia Kearns will be one of the few blue survivors, though LDs could get a respectable second place.
    And someone with the views and values a sensible Tory Party would try and rebuild around.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,759

    148grss said:

    I know shy Tories are historically a thing - but I also didn't see why people assumed the DKs were going to "come home" when it is so clear even typical Tories are upset with the party and how it has governed, and they seem to be loosing Tories to the "centre" and the right - with Starmer and the LDs stealing the wets who can't stand the culture war stuff and only care about the economy, and Farage parking his tanks on the lawn in the culture war sphere. I think we do really need to consider that the Tories will not be the party of opposition and are going to go extinct as a political force - if not fully in this election then in the near future (the only situation I see keeping the Tory Party alive is Farage being the only Reform MP and then crossing over to the Tories and becoming their leader. Which is a nightmare scenario in many ways....)

    My reasoning is this.

    Taking the step to vote Labour or Lib Dem for a habitual Tory voter is a big step. If a voter cannot take that step in an opinion poll, then doing so in the polling booth is unlikely.

    Most voters are going to be angry about the actions of the party leadership, at Sunak and Truss. But when they vote it's the reassuring presence of their local Tory on the ballot paper. It's much easier to vote for the blameless local Tory than to support the party leadership. This is especially the case when the election outcome appears to be a forgone conclusion. Sunak won't be PM after the election anyway.

    Under FPTP most political campaigning becomes negative. Only a vote for y can stop x. At the end of the day if you're a core Tory voter, someone who makes up the 20-30% of their support total, who else are you going to vote for who will stop Labour from winning your seat? If your Tory vote was never a positive vote for the Tories, but a negative vote against Labour, then you're trapped into making that vote regardless of how poor the Tories are. And, anyway, this time the Tories are bound to lose, so your Tory vote won't prolong the disaster of the incumbent government, but will act to restrain the worst excesses of the inevitable Labour government.

    I think this is all enough to see the Tories back up to 29%. Their worst vote share ever, so not exactly a good result, but better than suggested by the opinion polls.
    Not to 29%, from where we are now. 25% perhaps.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    mwadams said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    A clue to Britain's productivity problem.

    Investment in UK has trailed other G7 countries since mid-1990s, IPPR says
    Institute for Public Policy Research urges Labour and Conservatives to reverse planned cuts
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/18/investment-in-uk-has-trailed-other-g7-countries-since-mid-1990s-ippr-says
    Investment in the UK has trailed other G7 countries including the US and Germany since the mid-1990s, according to a report that urges Labour and the Conservatives to reverse planned cuts to investment or risk long-term damage to economic growth.

    The Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank found the UK was bottom of the G7 league for investment in 24 out of the last 30 years, using figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)...

    ...The figures show the turning point was the period after the early 1990s recession, which was followed by a severe property crash and Black Wednesday, when Britain was forced to hurriedly exit from the EU’s exchange rate mechanism. Ever since, growth in private sector investment has tracked below all the G7 countries except in three of the 24 years...

    I think @Gardenwalker put it well when he said we seem to have an allergy to capital investment in this country.

    It's like we look down our noses at it or something and see it as a waste of money.
    It's why the HS2 decision was such a terrible one. We need public investment to attract private sector investment and to create productive jobs. But this also means that we have yet more pressure to reduce current expenditure to create room for it. When you are already borrowing almost £100bn a year to meet current expenditure it is inevitable that capital investment is cut.

    I think Reeves gets the importance of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXlqAKCei0

    But I am cautious as to whether Labour will be willing to make the hard decisions necessary to free the capacity to make that investment.
    Probably not, since people vote on sweeties for the here and now and not the future.

    They'd see it as wasted money that could be spent on their pension, tax cuts or the NHS etc.

    To overcome that, politicians need to lead and make brave arguments, as you say.
    A massive majority should make a leader more willing to be brave and take some tough decisions for the long term.

    Yet I fear it is usually squandered, or wasted on trivialities.
    After the best part of 15 years out of office, I imagine the first term is spent learning how to do anything at all.
    Possibly, yet Boris had a comfortable majority and was largely tentative and treated it like a small one. He abandoned planning reform at the first hint of trouble after all, rather than adjust and push on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,462

    Taz said:

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    Spare a thought, also, for the driver and the low paid cleaners who will have to deal with the mess.

    I worked in a rail depot for a few years. It is not nice and happens more often than people think.
    I understand if a driver has two such tragic incidents he is pensioned off on full pay

    We have had several such incidents on our North Wales rail line but also a terrible recent incident where a middle aged woman slashed her wrists on a promenade bench before staggering into the sea and eventually her body was recovered by the RNLI
    Sadly, it is not just train drivers. An old friend of mine was a trackside worker, whose responsibilities included going to the scene of accidents as part of the investigation. He would describe occasionally finding body tissue, and parts, some way away from the scene. Naturally enough, this upset him deeply. He also mentioned that cleaners often find similar in odd places under the train. So much so, that I think special teams are now used for such cleaning after an incident. But they will also not be unaffected.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    kle4 said:

    mwadams said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    A clue to Britain's productivity problem.

    Investment in UK has trailed other G7 countries since mid-1990s, IPPR says
    Institute for Public Policy Research urges Labour and Conservatives to reverse planned cuts
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/18/investment-in-uk-has-trailed-other-g7-countries-since-mid-1990s-ippr-says
    Investment in the UK has trailed other G7 countries including the US and Germany since the mid-1990s, according to a report that urges Labour and the Conservatives to reverse planned cuts to investment or risk long-term damage to economic growth.

    The Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) thinktank found the UK was bottom of the G7 league for investment in 24 out of the last 30 years, using figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)...

    ...The figures show the turning point was the period after the early 1990s recession, which was followed by a severe property crash and Black Wednesday, when Britain was forced to hurriedly exit from the EU’s exchange rate mechanism. Ever since, growth in private sector investment has tracked below all the G7 countries except in three of the 24 years...

    I think @Gardenwalker put it well when he said we seem to have an allergy to capital investment in this country.

    It's like we look down our noses at it or something and see it as a waste of money.
    It's why the HS2 decision was such a terrible one. We need public investment to attract private sector investment and to create productive jobs. But this also means that we have yet more pressure to reduce current expenditure to create room for it. When you are already borrowing almost £100bn a year to meet current expenditure it is inevitable that capital investment is cut.

    I think Reeves gets the importance of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjXlqAKCei0

    But I am cautious as to whether Labour will be willing to make the hard decisions necessary to free the capacity to make that investment.
    Probably not, since people vote on sweeties for the here and now and not the future.

    They'd see it as wasted money that could be spent on their pension, tax cuts or the NHS etc.

    To overcome that, politicians need to lead and make brave arguments, as you say.
    A massive majority should make a leader more willing to be brave and take some tough decisions for the long term.

    Yet I fear it is usually squandered, or wasted on trivialities.
    After the best part of 15 years out of office, I imagine the first term is spent learning how to do anything at all.
    Possibly, yet Boris had a comfortable majority and was largely tentative and treated it like a small one. He abandoned planning reform at the first hint of trouble after all, rather than adjust and push on.
    I think Boris is a special case. Have we ever had a Prime Minister so invested in *being* Prime Minister rather than wishing to *do* anything?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    kle4 said:

    @Peter_the_Punter if the Tory vote splits between Conservatives and Reform then seats like Hampshire North East and North West could come into play for the LDs.

    I'm starting to detect anecdotal evidence of this.

    Kit Malthouse is perceived as lazy and taking the constituency for granted locally, in strong contrast to Sir George Young, and Ranil J is no James Arbuthnot either - and slightly odd.

    There are MPs in mega safe seats who work hard, but it would not be a shock if many naturally over time get a bit complacent. It's a generational event that it comes back to bite you, as many
    Scottish former Labour MPs could tell us
    Kit Malthouse views his seat as a platform for the national stage.

    Sir George Young was all over the place meeting residents and constituents regularly, and attended all the local events.

    Kit can't be arsed.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    Rejoice! ;)

    "The UK’s main stock market retook its crown as Europe’s most valuable for the first time in nearly two years, data shows."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqee1vpe3deo

    The Beeb have a very weird obsession with the London Stock Exchange at the moment. For months it’s something they seem to bring up every day on Today during the business section where the business presenter routinely asks any guest about the situation.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139

    Simon Jupp is either fighting a very clever campaign in Honiton and Sidmouth, based on smart below the radar electioneering or he is fighting an entirely clueless one. The Tories are almost invisible here. II don't see their posters. I don't see their canvassers. I don't see their flyers. Where on earth are they? By contrast, Richard Foord and the LibDems are everywhere. It's bizarre.

    Morale has collapsed, so they're probably not anywhere.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,053

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    Not wrong, but I don't here the phrase "drowned the kittens" very often, so yes I'd call it unusual.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,022
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On Monday Farage held the manifesto launch for the latest party that exists to function as a sedan chair for his ego and ambition, which is Reform UK. On stage in Merthyr Tydfil, he said … oh, never mind. You know what he said. You knew what he was going to say before he said it. Aloof establishment, bloated civil service, ordinary people of Britain neglected, time to sweep away the corrupt, complacent yadda yadda. He has said it before and he’ll say it again, and it’s incredibly hard to counter, mainly because it rests upon unknowable, untestable claims about how different this country would be if only Farage and his chums had their way and … hang on.

    It’s not untestable, is it? It literally happened. It’s still happening right now. In 2016 Farage wanted a thing and got it. He gave us Brexit. Remember Brexit? I’m sure it used to be important. “Mr Brexit!” says Donald Trump when he sees him, and it can’t only be because he struggles to remember his name.

    So what I’m wondering is, why does nobody ask him about it? Why don’t they say, “Is this what you wanted, and if not, then why isn’t that your fault?” Because they don’t.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/brexits-failed-right-so-why-is-nigel-farage-off-the-hook-7qfnkc659

    On reflection the only thing that might have worked was for Rishi was to come clean and admit that his Party got Brexit wrong. It could have worked. Starmer has U-turned on just about everything and it's working for him and more importantly no-one had yet picked up the unbrexit batton.

    Whether or not it would have helped is difficult to say but he certainly wouldn't be floundering where he is and it would have burst Farage's bubble at embryo stage.
    You seem to think everything is Brexit related but it seems the political class are not listening to you as they reject rejoining and even the Lib Dems are not in a hurry to promote the proposition

    Yougov found just 4% think Brexit is the cause of immigration
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,135

    The Tories should take the fight to Reform. Of course they should. But they can’t. Do it and the party very publicly splits. Braverman, Patel, Rees Mogg and co would all come out for Farage. They are hard right English nationalists. Just like him. The only thing that unites the Tories is being anti-Labour. It will be a bloodbath post-election.

    Its actually worse than that for the Tories. Ditch the populists and they still don't have either cohesion or a shared plan that can meet with reality. Truss, Sunak, Johnson, May are all quite different in policy aims and beliefs and Starmer and Davy are probably closer to the one nation faction than any of those 4.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    .

    algarkirk said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
    No, no, no. This is an error pointed out by I think Deutscher again, thinking that having different rules from standard grammar is the same as having no rules. Who drowned Clarence? It was him/them is acceptable English, where Him/them drowned Clarence is not. It's just borderline non-standard; I speak pretty much received standard English and I would say it was him; it was he sounds prissy and hypercorrect.
    It was him / he did.
    It was me / I did.

    That's pretty well what everyone says, isn't it ?

    Grammar is, outside of the French academy or computer programming, largely descriptive, rather than prescriptive, I think ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,358
    @estwebber

    NEW

    Analysis of the seats the Tories could keep at the election suggests the party will be evenly split between rightward-leaning and moderate MPs, setting up the mother of all leadership contests

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/1802968305134698510
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,069

    algarkirk said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
    No, no, no. This is an error pointed out by I think Deutscher again, thinking that having different rules from standard grammar is the same as having no rules. Who drowned Clarence? It was him/them is acceptable English, where Him/them drowned Clarence is not. It's just borderline non-standard; I speak pretty much received standard English and I would say it was him; it was he sounds prissy and hypercorrect.
    Good point; formulating the ever changing rules is quite hard, and depends on the audience. The class system has not gone away and within mini-cultures judgments are being made all the time.

    'Between you and I' is found frequently - and regarded as correct SFAICS by most. 'Between you, I, and the gatepost' (I think) isn't so regarded. It's hard going to formulate the rule.

    I sometimes wonder how less literate ancient Greeks got on having to handle their irregular verbs, the infinity of endings, optative pluperfect middles and all that.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Nigelb said:

    .

    algarkirk said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
    No, no, no. This is an error pointed out by I think Deutscher again, thinking that having different rules from standard grammar is the same as having no rules. Who drowned Clarence? It was him/them is acceptable English, where Him/them drowned Clarence is not. It's just borderline non-standard; I speak pretty much received standard English and I would say it was him; it was he sounds prissy and hypercorrect.
    It was him / he did.
    It was me / I did.

    That's pretty well what everyone says, isn't it ?

    Grammar is, outside of the French academy or computer programming, largely descriptive, rather than prescriptive, I think ?
    Pretty much.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420

    Taz said:

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    Spare a thought, also, for the driver and the low paid cleaners who will have to deal with the mess.

    I worked in a rail depot for a few years. It is not nice and happens more often than people think.
    I understand if a driver has two such tragic incidents he is pensioned off on full pay

    We have had several such incidents on our North Wales rail line but also a terrible recent incident where a middle aged woman slashed her wrists on a promenade bench before staggering into the sea and eventually her body was recovered by the RNLI
    Sadly, it is not just train drivers. An old friend of mine was a trackside worker, whose responsibilities included going to the scene of accidents as part of the investigation. He would describe occasionally finding body tissue, and parts, some way away from the scene. Naturally enough, this upset him deeply. He also mentioned that cleaners often find similar in odd places under the train. So much so, that I think special teams are now used for such cleaning after an incident. But they will also not be unaffected.
    The know side effects on the people who witness these events include - depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, behavioural problems leading to legal issues, divorce and…. suicide.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    eristdoof said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    Not wrong, but I don't here the phrase "drowned the kittens" very often, so yes I'd call it unusual.
    My ex boss used to say of me that I was very good at drowning kittens.

    Not literally just metaphorically as I could do difficult/unpleasant things work related that others struggled to do.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    Nigelb said:

    .

    algarkirk said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    From the earlier conversations it appears that "Fred drowned Charlie and he" should be common too, and "Me drowned he" is at least an option.
    No, no, no. This is an error pointed out by I think Deutscher again, thinking that having different rules from standard grammar is the same as having no rules. Who drowned Clarence? It was him/them is acceptable English, where Him/them drowned Clarence is not. It's just borderline non-standard; I speak pretty much received standard English and I would say it was him; it was he sounds prissy and hypercorrect.
    It was him / he did.
    It was me / I did.

    That's pretty well what everyone says, isn't it ?

    Grammar is, outside of the French academy or computer programming, largely descriptive, rather than prescriptive, I think ?
    Especially when it comes to the rhythm of a sentence.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,605
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    More "winning here" stuff.

    Ed Davey would say that, wouldn't he.

    Exceptional barcharting here

    https://x.com/TomChivers/status/1802750989226631476
    Even by Lib Dem standards thats bonkers :smiley:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 48,420
    edited June 18

    Simon Jupp is either fighting a very clever campaign in Honiton and Sidmouth, based on smart below the radar electioneering or he is fighting an entirely clueless one. The Tories are almost invisible here. II don't see their posters. I don't see their canvassers. I don't see their flyers. Where on earth are they? By contrast, Richard Foord and the LibDems are everywhere. It's bizarre.

    Morale has collapsed, so they're probably not anywhere.
    1) denial
    2) anger
    3) bargaining
    4) depression
    5) acceptance

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,139
    FF43 said:

    If this is correct, it means Reform won't increase their share before the election.

    In fact none of the parties would change much but the Conservatives might rise by a percentage point.

    I think that's right.

    I expect Reform and the Conservatives to wrestle in the mud all the way to polling day, whilst SKS laughs, followed by Labour winning a stonking majority.

    The risk is they then hugely overplay their hand.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 874

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    I had a similar experience going to Edinburgh for a stag. By the time we limped into Haymarket I wasn't feeling very jolly. As you say, the noise is something I will never forget, two simultaneous metallic crashes from under the train - I never saw, but that must be the sound of someone coming apart. The conductor's voice over the tannoy and the paramedics looking under the train. I felt so sad thinking about what would lead someone to that end and how terrible their final moments must have been. Nasty business.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533

    eristdoof said:

    eristdoof said:

    Roger said:


    OT I think! (and first?)

    You'll be pleased to know that the Olympic torch has just been delivered from Athens to Villefranche harbour in a fairly spectacular display and then to the Citadel and then onto Paris. This place hasn't had crowds like this since Michael Caine nearly drowned Steve Martin.........

    It's unusual to see the verb 'to drown' being used transitively!
    Drowned the kittens... Drowned him in a butt of malmsey ... Not startlingly unusual surely?
    Not wrong, but I don't here the phrase "drowned the kittens" very often, so yes I'd call it unusual.
    My ex boss used to say of me that I was very good at drowning kittens.

    Not literally just metaphorically as I could do difficult/unpleasant things work related that others struggled to do.
    Common exchange repeated in our house, from the 90s:

    Paul Whitehouse (as a grumpy old man): "Washing your smalls."
    Harry Enfield (as another grumpy old man, hands in the sink): "Nope. Drowning the kittens."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,022

    Taz said:

    Somehow I can't get enthused about this anymore today.

    A beautiful morning, one of the first cloudless, beautiful mornings in months, and someone who was alive an hour ago is now in a million pieces all over the railway line at Leagrave, having apparently chosen this course of action.

    Puts it all in Context I guess, but a bit shocked. I will never forget the noise.

    Spare a thought, also, for the driver and the low paid cleaners who will have to deal with the mess.

    I worked in a rail depot for a few years. It is not nice and happens more often than people think.
    I understand if a driver has two such tragic incidents he is pensioned off on full pay

    We have had several such incidents on our North Wales rail line but also a terrible recent incident where a middle aged woman slashed her wrists on a promenade bench before staggering into the sea and eventually her body was recovered by the RNLI
    Sadly, it is not just train drivers. An old friend of mine was a trackside worker, whose responsibilities included going to the scene of accidents as part of the investigation. He would describe occasionally finding body tissue, and parts, some way away from the scene. Naturally enough, this upset him deeply. He also mentioned that cleaners often find similar in odd places under the train. So much so, that I think special teams are now used for such cleaning after an incident. But they will also not be unaffected.
    The know side effects on the people who witness these events include - depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, behavioural problems leading to legal issues, divorce and…. suicide.

    PTSD as well
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