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A point of agreement – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,008
edited July 4 in General
imageA point of agreement – politicalbetting.com

If you want to understand (and you really should want to) how gender ideology – the belief that men can turn into women simply by saying so based on some internal feeling they have – captured so many public institutions and members of the political class in recent years, how, in particular, it led to the Gender Recognition Reform Act in Scotland (blocked by the UK government), how Scottish women mobilised and fought back against it and the price they paid – and are still paying – for doing so, you should read “The Woman Who Wouldn’t Wheesht“, edited by Lucy Hunter Blackburn and Susan Dalgety. It tells the story of some of the very many women involved in the campaign to stand up for women’s rights, is well-written, infuriating, inspiring and so very very necessary.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,827
    edited June 17
    First?
    and agree
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 653
    edited June 17
    nvm failed well done @algarkirk you are the top g or whatever it is the yoof say these days
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,536
    edited June 17
    Third.

    Thank-you for the header.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872
    The trans issue has so far been surprisingly absent from the election. I thought the Tories would weaponise it more, or the Greens or SNP would get themselves more tied up in knots about it. Not even Reform seem that interested.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,708
    Why are so many trans activists ultra-misogynistic?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,306
    On this surely all can agree?

    I can only admire your optimism.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316
    Thank-you for the header @Cyclefree. I agree.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,082
    Mullen should have got a custodial sentence.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,214
    TimS said:

    The trans issue has so far been surprisingly absent from the election. I thought the Tories would weaponise it more, or the Greens or SNP would get themselves more tied up in knots about it. Not even Reform seem that interested.

    Didn't Kemi Badenoch have a day on the issue and it didn't really go well? Actually, have we seen her since?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022

    TimS said:

    The trans issue has so far been surprisingly absent from the election. I thought the Tories would weaponise it more, or the Greens or SNP would get themselves more tied up in knots about it. Not even Reform seem that interested.

    Didn't Kemi Badenoch have a day on the issue and it didn't really go well? Actually, have we seen her since?
    Who?
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 653
    edited June 17

    Sean_F said:

    @Leon that’s true in general, but an appreciable minority of Mills and Boons’ readers are men, and there are women in my Military History Club who are formidably learned.

    It, like many things, @Leon says, is bullshit. It's inherited/learned behaviour, not intrinsic characteristics.

    In the past, many people have said that women cold never do well in motorsport. Including some on here. But as I point out, the problem is not male versus female capabilities, but the fact that so few women start off in the sport at the right time, and sponsorship and progression is so much harder for women. (Because sponsors want people who progress, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

    As it happens, Jamie Chadwick (*) has just got her first pole position in Indy NXT (**), and won her first race. The first woman to get a pole or win. A few races earlier, she was the third woman to get a podium.

    The problem is not capability; the problem is that so few get into the sport in the first place: because it is seen as a 'male' sport; and few girls start off at a young age. And when they did, barriers were often placed in their way. Chadwick has done well, in part, because her family are fairly well-off and could afford to fund her racing without much sponsorship.

    https://www.planetf1.com/features/milestone-jamie-chadwick-indy-nxt-win

    (*) Who I have mentioned on here before...
    (**) The feeder series for full Indycars.
    My aunt is a racing instructor. She got into it because my uncle is too, otherwise basically that talent would never have appeared. She drives better than anyone here, even @Dura_Ace (she doesn't get caught and she doesn't stack it). I agree with you about motorsport.

    But to claim male and female sexual preferences are entirely learned behaviour is ridiculous. Even in those polyandrous Nepalese/Tibetan/Whatever tribes there are very predictable differences in behaviour.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    FPT

    kle4 said:

    https://x.com/DeltapollUK/status/1802755485331780094?s=19

    27 point lead, ouch!

    🚨New Voting Intention🚨
    Labour lead by 27 points in our latest poll.
    Con 19% (-2)
    Lab 46% (-)
    Lib Dem 10% (+1)
    Reform 16% (+4)
    SNP 2% (-2)
    Green 5% (-)
    Other 1% (-1)
    Fieldwork: 14th - 17th June 2024
    Sample: 1,383 GB adults
    (Changes from 6th - 8th June 2024)

    I'm just so glad Rishi called an early election to wrongfoot Reform.
    The best call since the Earl of Cardigan at Sevastapol*.

    *or whomever is best placed to be blamed.
    I can only conclude that Labour are absolutely fucking brilliant at placing plants ready to play the long game.
    I've heard three theories from reliable sources on why Rishi went for July, I'll only discuss two of them.

    1) He has had enough of the criticism and realised if he went in July or November the result would be largely the same

    2) He was worried about an Oct/Nov election getting entangled with the US election. We all know some Tories will back Trump, which is a vote loser, then you've got Trump commentating on the election which could be messy.
    I not only predicted 4th July, so it couldn’t come as a complete shock to PBers, but I told you all the reasoning as to why in the weeks and months before they even started reasoning it for themselves.

    Waiting for interest rate cut had run out of road, this meant mortgage and re-mortgage pain all up to autumn election. July and summer would bring not only surge to a record of Channel crossings, but none of the long promised covid flights as it got bogged down in courts. A Covid report, to put the “after that how can we trust you ever again?” on voters lips in time for autumn campaign. Autumn also brings higher energy prices and food prices, and inflation creeping back up. It could also mean a party conference, and a fiscal event for which there was no money left for rabbits from the pre election hat, at least not in these days of the OBR, the so called headroom Hunt had invented, he had already maxxed out.

    They are not bright this Tory top team - Sunak’s switch to now fighting on individual freedom and aspiration for working families in his hustings speeches this week, wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t told him to do that on PB. Tory’s are making this campaign up as they go along, from reading PB and cribbing from my posts in particular.
    You also predicted May.

    Now people like me tipped July at 20s.

    Can you boast of such a tip?
    You were no doubt influenced by the text of the suggested PB thread that I emailed to you in May 2023. Possibly a bit too technical, but the conclusion was spot on. Can I have my cut please?

    "ENERGY PRICES POINT TO AN EARLY GENERAL ELECTION
    One of Rishi Sunak’s five pledges is to halve inflation this year. It was an easy pledge to make. The CPI was always going to fall rapidly so long as energy costs did not rise even further above their extraordinarily high levels of the past winter.
    We can predict energy price inflation some way in advance, based on what happened to prices 12 months ago. As energy has a major impact on the CPI, that gives us a good idea of what will happen to the CPI generally. The fall in the April CPI to 8.7% (10.1% in March) was entirely down to measuring the current energy price guarantee price of £2,500 relative to the £1,971 price cap of April 2022 instead of the much lower March 2022 figure of £1,277. The only surprise was that the fall was not even larger, inflation in other sectors being unexpectedly high.
    We now know that the energy price cap is to fall back to £2,074 for at least 3 months from July 2023, with analysts predicting a longer period of stability. If so, from the October 2023 CPI, energy prices will then be 17% down from a year earlier, compared to the year-on-year increase of 27% still contributing to the April 2022 CPI.
    So when planning the timing of the general election, Sunak knows that energy price base effects will push down headline CPI rates the most from October 2023 onwards. But that significant and beneficial base effect can be expected to end with the June 2024 CPI. Energy price base effects will once again be pushing up inflation from the July 2024 CPI onwards.
    The July 2024 CPI will be published in late August 2024. That’s a strong reason for Sunak to hold the general election before then.
    Wulfrun Phil"

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,233
    A very minor technical note on the header. Michael Cashman was never an MP, although he was an MEP for 15 years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,866

    4th?

    Lol

    I think you'll come higher than that, third I should think.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022

    Sean_F said:

    @Leon that’s true in general, but an appreciable minority of Mills and Boons’ readers are men, and there are women in my Military History Club who are formidably learned.

    It, like many things, @Leon says, is bullshit. It's inherited/learned behaviour, not intrinsic characteristics.

    In the past, many people have said that women cold never do well in motorsport. Including some on here. But as I point out, the problem is not male versus female capabilities, but the fact that so few women start off in the sport at the right time, and sponsorship and progression is so much harder for women. (Because sponsors want people who progress, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

    As it happens, Jamie Chadwick (*) has just got her first pole position in Indy NXT (**), and won her first race. The first woman to get a pole or win. A few races earlier, she was the third woman to get a podium.

    The problem is not capability; the problem is that so few get into the sport in the first place: because it is seen as a 'male' sport; and few girls start off at a young age. And when they did, barriers were often placed in their way. Chadwick has done well, in part, because her family are fairly well-off and could afford to fund her racing without much sponsorship.

    https://www.planetf1.com/features/milestone-jamie-chadwick-indy-nxt-win

    (*) Who I have mentioned on here before...
    (**) The feeder series for full Indycars.
    My aunt is a racing instructor. She got into it because my uncle is too, otherwise basically that talent would never have appeared. She drives better than anyone here, even @Dura_Ace (she doesn't get caught and she doesn't stack it). I agree with you about motorsport.

    But to claim male and female sexual preferences are entirely learned behaviour is ridiculous. Even in those polyandrous Nepalese/Tibetan/Whatever tribes there are very predictable differences in behaviour.
    Indeed. As as sex is biological fact determined by gametes, that should not be in question either. That said, I think the whole row over this is stuff is rather silly. Let people identify as they wish except in situations where biological sex matters (such as sports, safeguarding etc).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,980
    edited June 17
    Great thread header and agree entirely. I would never vote for Duffield but would hope we would all be horrified and angered if she or any ther woman felt unable to stand or take part in the normal election process because of threats of violence.

    Also very disappointed in Cashman who I have previously admired.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316
    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,726
    The reason trans has not really been a factor in the campaign is that it is an issue where politicians (lets face it they are hardly young and "edgy" most of them) like to react rather than be proactive. That may mean joining the bandwagon like Starmer clumsily did a year or so ago or go at it from a conventional way in that a man is a man etc.
    This is an issue led by non-politicians that politicians then protest about . As opposed to say taxation that politicians lead and non-politicians protest
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,827

    TimS said:

    The trans issue has so far been surprisingly absent from the election. I thought the Tories would weaponise it more, or the Greens or SNP would get themselves more tied up in knots about it. Not even Reform seem that interested.

    Didn't Kemi Badenoch have a day on the issue and it didn't really go well? Actually, have we seen her since?
    IIRC the Reform manifesto mentions single sex toilets or something, so it's there if you are keen. It's not a vote winner for any party.

    BTW if you strip out the lunacy, sort out the costings, abandon the fantasy and conspiracy based stuff, sort out how long it all takes, expressed it all as long term aspirations and adopt a non populist style, (about 50 to 60% would have to go) what is left would form the basis of a reasonably respectable fairly right wing Tory manifesto.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 27,421

    The reason trans has not really been a factor in the campaign is that it is an issue where politicians (lets face it they are hardly young and "edgy" most of them) like to react rather than be proactive. That may mean joining the bandwagon like Starmer clumsily did a year or so ago or go at it from a conventional way in that a man is a man etc.
    This is an issue led by non-politicians that politicians then protest about . As opposed to say taxation that politicians lead and non-politicians protest

    A good point, well made.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872

    The reason trans has not really been a factor in the campaign is that it is an issue where politicians (lets face it they are hardly young and "edgy" most of them) like to react rather than be proactive. That may mean joining the bandwagon like Starmer clumsily did a year or so ago or go at it from a conventional way in that a man is a man etc.
    This is an issue led by non-politicians that politicians then protest about . As opposed to say taxation that politicians lead and non-politicians protest

    A good point, well made.
    Agree, I’d not thought of it like that. Similar to to Israel-Gaza in that respect, unless you’re Galloway.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,958
    algarkirk said:

    TimS said:

    The trans issue has so far been surprisingly absent from the election. I thought the Tories would weaponise it more, or the Greens or SNP would get themselves more tied up in knots about it. Not even Reform seem that interested.

    Didn't Kemi Badenoch have a day on the issue and it didn't really go well? Actually, have we seen her since?
    IIRC the Reform manifesto mentions single sex toilets or something, so it's there if you are keen. It's not a vote winner for any party.

    BTW if you strip out the lunacy, sort out the costings, abandon the fantasy and conspiracy based stuff, sort out how long it all takes, expressed it all as long term aspirations and adopt a non populist style, (about 50 to 60% would have to go) what is left would form the basis of a reasonably respectable fairly right wing Tory manifesto.
    But you can't do that, because the stuff they care about is all the demented rubbish, and the sensible stuff is nothing for them...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316
    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,536
    edited June 17
    Sean_F said:

    Why are so many trans activists ultra-misogynistic?

    That's a good question.

    I'm inclined to draw a parallel with some religious converts who adopt an extreme version of their new worldview, in part because they do not have a version of their new religion which has had time to grow up and mature as would happen in a family setting, perhaps also in part because they are keen to prove their enthusiasm.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872

    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
    Sorry, inexact language. The collapse in the Lib Dem bubble.

    In 2010 Clegg was taking votes from both other parties. In 2024 Reform is disproportionately taking votes from Con so their decline would lead to swingback.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,407
    edited June 17
    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872
    edited June 17
    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly rational was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Moaning on Novara Media and TwitterX (there are still plenty of them there)

    The soft left is more interesting though. They are definitely positioning for more influence later in the parliament.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
    Sorry, inexact language. The collapse in the Lib Dem bubble.

    In 2010 Clegg was taking votes from both other parties. In 2024 Reform is disproportionately taking votes from Con so their decline would lead to swingback.
    I have come to the conclusion that this is not like any other election and there are thus no lessons to be drawn from any of them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310
    I know today has been St Nigel's Day, but has anyone seen or heard from Rishi?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 11,872

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
    Sorry, inexact language. The collapse in the Lib Dem bubble.

    In 2010 Clegg was taking votes from both other parties. In 2024 Reform is disproportionately taking votes from Con so their decline would lead to swingback.
    I have come to the conclusion that this is not like any other election and there are thus no lessons to be drawn from any of them.
    The 2017 election has to be the weirdest in recent times.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,082
    Own goal by Austria.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,944

    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
    Indeed, but an example of it occurring was 2015.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 52,527
    edited June 17
    War is to men what romance is to women


    Men read military history; women read romantic fiction


    Men fancy themselves as soldiers; women imagine themselves as beauties


    Both are fantasies, both are eternal, both are corrosively intoxicating


    That’s so fucking good I might start a novel with it. It’s Tolstoyan. Except it’s better than Tolstoy. All that “happy families are the same” shit. Or is it the other way round?

    WHO CARES. MINE IS BETTER
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,445
    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Waiting. The Ken Livingstone playbook at the GLC...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,470
    Sean_F said:

    Why are so many trans activists ultra-misogynistic?

    I don't think many are, though a very vocal minority exist that are. Trans activists are like any other group very often not of one mind. Indeed neither are feminists.

    Trans identification is associated with a number of other things including neurodivergence, and this can express as aggression and rigidity. I don't think synthetic hormones help either.



  • One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310
    edited June 17

    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Waiting. The Ken Livingstone playbook at the GLC...
    So decapitate ( figuratively speaking) Starmer on 5th July and replace him with Dickie DiDoh Burgon?

    Clever!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,158
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    This chart of the Labour lead should cheer up depressed Tories:

    image

    Oh, wait. The chart is upside down. Sorry guys!

    Doesn’t work when there’s a bubbly insurgent party sucking up lots of dissident votes though. Swingback can be a lot more rapid than 1997, as it was in 2010.
    There was no swingback during the 2010 election: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UK_General_Election_2010_YouGov_Polls_Graph.png
    Sorry, inexact language. The collapse in the Lib Dem bubble.

    In 2010 Clegg was taking votes from both other parties. In 2024 Reform is disproportionately taking votes from Con so their decline would lead to swingback.
    Polling of Reform voters has them breaking for the Tories only by 2:1.
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,225

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 79,920

    I know today has been St Nigel's Day, but has anyone seen or heard from Rishi?

    The Tories seem to have gone from President Hyperactive Rishi to hiding him away. No idea why.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,407

    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Waiting. The Ken Livingstone playbook at the GLC...
    There seem to be no clues that this is the case. I'm baffled - take over the universe one week, and mend socks the next.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,570
    4th

    Lol
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited June 17
    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    They haven't gone away, you know.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,726

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    yes this would completley change the way i work . I dont worry about paying 40% tax whatever I earn because I always work out how much i need to put in my pension to bring me down to the 20% bracket . Not only is it the only reason I save in a pension , its also the only reason I am still doing a job that is quite demanding but pays accordingly. If there is no incentive to put into a pension , it removes my incentive to work
  • Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    Good point. That would bring extra NI into the equation too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316
    Andy_JS said:

    Own goal by Austria.

    So that's where Rishi Sunak is today, in the Austrian defence?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,442

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    Labour would be absolutely mad to do this. Retirement saving needs to be encouraged. Far too many people save too little as it is.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310

    I know today has been St Nigel's Day, but has anyone seen or heard from Rishi?

    The Tories seem to have gone from President Hyperactive Rishi to hiding him away. No idea why.
    Two weeks with Rishi under the radar and the Tories will be back up to 40%.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 79,920
    Dance producer Dario G, whose hits included Sunchyme and Carnaval de Paris, has died at the age of 53.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy00dgr4yjvo

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,316

    I know today has been St Nigel's Day, but has anyone seen or heard from Rishi?

    The Tories seem to have gone from President Hyperactive Rishi to hiding him away. No idea why.
    Is anyone campaigning for the Tories now?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 79,920
    edited June 17
    I am sorry Roy Keane is a shit pundit. Is Henry working for another European tv company this summer, because he is really good.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,415
    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,418
    Andy_JS said:

    Own goal by Austria.

    Yeah, that Anschluss was never going to end well.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,876
    Andy_JS said:

    Own goal by Austria.

    Own goal by Rishi.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,002
    The media seem to be spending a lot of time analysing Farage's manifesto and its costings.

    Did they spend all this time for the other minor parties when they launched?

    No.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,470
    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,403
    edited June 17

    The media seem to be spending a lot of time analysing Farage's manifesto and its costings.

    Did they spend all this time for the other minor parties when they launched?

    No.

    Clacton is a lot closer to London than, say, Ballykelly or Llanfair P.G is. Or even Brighton.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022
    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    Now, let me think…
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,442

    The media seem to be spending a lot of time analysing Farage's manifesto and its costings.

    Did they spend all this time for the other minor parties when they launched?

    No.

    To be fair, according to some polls Reform are on the cusp of becoming the second party (if not on seats then on votes).
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022
    Perhaps we could find some room with the Poll Rampers in the Seventh Circle of Hell?

    The Subsamplers and the Policy Fabricators might fit in nicely.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,708
    kyf_100 said:

    On topic -

    Gender ideology is not 'the belief that men can turn into women simply by saying so based on some internal feeling they have' - but rather stems from the much earlier strain of feminist thought that much of what has been traditionally regarded as biological differences between men and women are actually socially constructed. Hence Simone De Beauvoir's famous quote that one becomes, rather than is born, a woman.

    Furthermore, a great many 'gender critical' types are biological essentialists precisely because they believe the 'biological differences' between men and women allow for discrimination - they are the tradcons who literally think women are inferior to men and belong in the kitchen or raising babies. Those are the fellow travellers with whom TERFs cavort.

    On the subject of people being able to live their lives without bullying and violence, I certainly agree. TERF ideology legitimises hatred, bullying, assault, and sexual assault against transgender and gender noncomforming people. You are four times more likely to be sexually assaulted as a trans woman than as a cis woman, and I would remind you again that trans women in particular are far more likely to be the victims of hate crime than the perpetrators, and remain more discriminated against in society than "the women who weesht". Women face appalling levels of violence and abuse. Trans women receive as much, if not more. This is an argument for solidarity, not biological essentialism.

    Of course, politicians should be allowed to express their views without fear of violence. For example, last week I (and many others) condemned the milkshaking of Nigel Farage, despite finding him an odious little shit. However like Farage, TERFS use their platform to incite hatred against minority groups, bringing us back to the old question of 'how far is free speech allowed to go before it becomes hate speech?' I don't have an answer to that question, because I'm a bit of a free speech absolutist, and I'd rather exist in a world where people are free to spout off any old nonsense they like and have their ideas challenged through intellectual debate.

    But turning trans and gender nonconforming people into the latest outpost in a culture war driven largely by the far right, has made life much more dangerous and unpleasant for an already marginalised group who mostly just want to get on and live their own lives. There are definitely some trans activists out there who have been radicalised as a result. But then again, you might be radicalised if politicians were on the TV denying your very existence and stirring up hatred and bigotry against you.

    I condemn political violence in all its forms, whether that's a trans activist threatening a politician, or a TERF stirring up hatred that leads to a trans person being assaulted or worse.

    TERF
    kyf_100 said:

    On topic -

    Gender ideology is not 'the belief that men can turn into women simply by saying so based on some internal feeling they have' - but rather stems from the much earlier strain of feminist thought that much of what has been traditionally regarded as biological differences between men and women are actually socially constructed. Hence Simone De Beauvoir's famous quote that one becomes, rather than is born, a woman.

    Furthermore, a great many 'gender critical' types are biological essentialists precisely because they believe the 'biological differences' between men and women allow for discrimination - they are the tradcons who literally think women are inferior to men and belong in the kitchen or raising babies. Those are the fellow travellers with whom TERFs cavort.

    On the subject of people being able to live their lives without bullying and violence, I certainly agree. TERF ideology legitimises hatred, bullying, assault, and sexual assault against transgender and gender noncomforming people. You are four times more likely to be sexually assaulted as a trans woman than as a cis woman, and I would remind you again that trans women in particular are far more likely to be the victims of hate crime than the perpetrators, and remain more discriminated against in society than "the women who weesht". Women face appalling levels of violence and abuse. Trans women receive as much, if not more. This is an argument for solidarity, not biological essentialism.

    Of course, politicians should be allowed to express their views without fear of violence. For example, last week I (and many others) condemned the milkshaking of Nigel Farage, despite finding him an odious little shit. However like Farage, TERFS use their platform to incite hatred against minority groups, bringing us back to the old question of 'how far is free speech allowed to go before it becomes hate speech?' I don't have an answer to that question, because I'm a bit of a free speech absolutist, and I'd rather exist in a world where people are free to spout off any old nonsense they like and have their ideas challenged through intellectual debate.

    But turning trans and gender nonconforming people into the latest outpost in a culture war driven largely by the far right, has made life much more dangerous and unpleasant for an already marginalised group who mostly just want to get on and live their own lives. There are definitely some trans activists out there who have been radicalised as a result. But then again, you might be radicalised if politicians were on the TV denying your very existence and stirring up hatred and bigotry against you.

    I condemn political violence in all its forms, whether that's a trans activist threatening a politician, or a TERF stirring up hatred that leads to a trans person being assaulted or worse.

    The “TERF” like the “Cis Het White Male” fulfils the role of Satan, within extreme left demonology.
  • One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    As ever, the problem is what do you do about DB pension scheme employer contributions ? Are you going to calculate a notional BIK for each scheme member each year ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,876
    On topic, this toxin has some way to simmer away before it boils dry, I fear.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Waiting. The Ken Livingstone playbook at the GLC...
    Not credible I'm afraid.

    Far more plausible that if the Tories were reelected Braverman or some other loopy right-winger would be installed PDQ.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,442
    Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    Yes. For what it’s worth, I think Labour will raise taxes. Because they’ll have to. I suspect that will be CGT (not on first houses though) and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see income tax go up for higher earners (exactly how high TBC).

    But a lot of this stuff reads like pie in the sky doom-mongering and I see little evidence of it being attractive to an incoming government. Disincentivising pension saving and lumbering homeowners with a sales tax are going to be fundamentally unpopular to huge chunks of the electorate. I just can’t see it.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,241
    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    Yep - but say it’s a stupid idea that has already been ruled out is pointless because 95% of people won’t have the first idea what @MisterBedfordshire is talking about
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,037
    edited June 17
    Carnyx said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    But that is all rather like drones in Wales. Say something very narrowly specific and complain that Labour haven't excluded that narrowly specific thing. Like the mythical drones in Wales supposedly now leering into non-innocent Tories' gardens to assess the improvements they have carefully failed to report to the valuation bureau.

    Is there any evidence they have this in mind? At all? As| opposed to being a general suggestion in the Tory media?
    Imagine you get tax relief at 45% or 40% on all your pension contributions. You build a pot of £1m which generates a £50k annuity. Now, you only pay 20% on the way out. Plus, you got to "borrow" the tax and get compounding returns for decades.

    Practically, getting rid of 45% tax relief would be a first step. Then reducing 40% to 30%. Salami slicing. Avoids increasing income tax rates.

    Governments should encourage pension saving to prevent state-reliance in old age. But it might not be in the interest of government to make pensioners rich.

    This tory is relaxed about it. But then, this tory doesn't earn enough to pay higher rate tax.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,470

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    Ot the infamous meat tax...
  • eekeek Posts: 27,241
    Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    People know taxes are going to rise, the issue is there is no easy way to do so nor any ability to sensible plan them until Labour are in power and the full skill set of the treasury and elsewhere is available to map out the consequences.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,403

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    Hair powder tax. Licences for gerbils (but not hamsters, obvs). Import duty on Mid-Atlantic political theories and fashions. Drones hovering outside and inside the Gents in the public park to see if you have Washed Your Hands And Adjusted Your Dress after using the ablutions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,470
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    People know taxes are going to rise, the issue is there is no easy way to do so nor any ability to sensible plan them until Labour are in power and the full skill set of the treasury and elsewhere is available to map out the consequences.

    I suspect that most of the tax rises will be the ones that the Conservatives have built in via fiscal drag. It works particularly well if inflation picks up again.
  • Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    Once again, Sunak ignores the interests of congenitally hairless men who live in underground bunkers. Just shows how elitist and out of touch he is.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 653
    edited June 17
    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    But that is all rather like drones in Wales. Say something very narrowly specific and complain that Labour haven't excluded that narrowly specific thing. Like the mythical drones in Wales supposedly now leering into non-innocent Tories' gardens to assess the improvements they have carefully failed to report to the valuation bureau.

    Is there any evidence they have this in mind? At all? As| opposed to being a general suggestion in the Tory media?
    Imagine you get tax relief at 45% or 40% on all your pension contributions. You build a pot of £1m which generates a £50k annuity. Now, you only pay 20% on the way out. Plus, you got to "borrow" the tax and get compounding returns for decades.

    Practically, getting rid of 45% tax relief would be a first step. Then reducing 40% to 30%. Salami slicing. Avoids increasing incime tax rates.

    Governments should encourage pension saving to prevent state-reliance in old age. But it might not be in the interest of government to make pensioners rich.

    This tory is relaxed about it. But then, this tory doesn't earn enough to pay higher rate tax.
    It'll only be 20% coming out of the pension if the pensioner stays below whatever the 20% tax rate (if such it is) at the time. There's no particular reason to think that the pension tax treatment will be anything (specifically) by the time I'm taking my pension, in the unlikely event my disgraceful lifestyle lets me live that long. Hopefully similar to today's but who knows.

    The point is to be a tax free untouchable savings vehicle. If you don't want it to be so then that's absolutely fine as a political choice (although I disagree). But don't get today's pensions savings policy mixed up with the future's pension taking policy cause you've no idea what that'll be.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,407
    Carnyx said:

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    Hair powder tax. Licences for gerbils (but not hamsters, obvs). Import duty on Mid-Atlantic political theories and fashions. Drones hovering outside and inside the Gents in the public park to see if you have Washed Your Hands And Adjusted Your Dress after using the ablutions.
    Reclaiming the USA would yield astonishing numbers in back taxes. Financially this is in fact the UKs best option.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310
    ...

    The media seem to be spending a lot of time analysing Farage's manifesto and its costings.

    Did they spend all this time for the other minor parties when they launched?

    No.

    The disingenuous bit is the media are promoting the Mom and apple pie promises, but calling out the fiscal lunacy as an afterthought.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,825

    Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    Yes. For what it’s worth, I think Labour will raise taxes. Because they’ll have to. I suspect that will be CGT (not on first houses though) and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see income tax go up for higher earners (exactly how high TBC).

    But a lot of this stuff reads like pie in the sky doom-mongering and I see little evidence of it being attractive to an incoming government. Disincentivising pension saving and lumbering homeowners with a sales tax are going to be fundamentally unpopular to huge chunks of the electorate. I just can’t see it.
    Taxing someone when they sell a house, and have a huge dollop of cash landing in their lap, makes more sense than taxing someone when they buy a house, and need to borrow money to pay the tax.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    200 Tory seats seems a very very long way off now!
    100 in the balance I'd say. They desperately need to start bagging 'stop the landslide' votes but I just don't see it happening. They are just toxic
  • Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    Yes. For what it’s worth, I think Labour will raise taxes. Because they’ll have to. I suspect that will be CGT (not on first houses though) and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see income tax go up for higher earners (exactly how high TBC).

    But a lot of this stuff reads like pie in the sky doom-mongering and I see little evidence of it being attractive to an incoming government. Disincentivising pension saving and lumbering homeowners with a sales tax are going to be fundamentally unpopular to huge chunks of the electorate. I just can’t see it.
    Its been speculated on every year before recent (Tory) budgets. Because the amount involved is so large. Treasury very keen on the idea apparently.

    I think it is only the complications mentioned above that have stopped it happening already
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    I am considering drafting an 800 word post exposing Labour’s plans for a super-tax on political betting nerds.

    BRACE.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,415

    I know today has been St Nigel's Day, but has anyone seen or heard from Rishi?

    The Tories seem to have gone from President Hyperactive Rishi to hiding him away. No idea why.
    I have an idea why.
    And who knows, maybe a few days of calm will work for them. The next debate isn't until the 26th, and the football will provide plenty of competition for people's attention until then.

    There's clearly been a decision made to avoid an all-out attack on Refuk. I suspect that's wise - they want the Faragasm to dissipate, and boredom is probably the best way to encourage that.
  • novanova Posts: 672
    Omnium said:

    What's happened to Labour's left? It seems that their bubble was popped and they just dissipated to the winds. Of course nobody imagines that's true, but quite what are they up to?

    I don't believe for a moment that Starmer has convinced them to be nice, and clearly 'rational' was never on the agenda. So the riddle is a big one - where are they?

    Assuming you mean MPs? It depends what you mean by "left".

    Polling of attitudes shows that Labour MPs were as left wing economically as members, and more liberal, even when Corbyn was in charge. They just appear to be more aware of the need to get elected, and speak to enough people from across the spectrum, to realise that most people are more central than they are.

    Beyond that- the actual left MPs who were in thrall to Corbyn. Just look at the size of the Campaign Group before Corbyn's leadership. He only put himself forward as leader, because the other 3 had already had their turn!

    They managed to get a few more elected in 2017/19, and there are now about 30 of them listed, but a good proportion of those have already been deselected, had the whip removed, or aren't standing again. Given that their twitter membership list still included Corbyn, and Claudia Webbe, it looks like they're not particularly active. The rest, I imagine will be keeping their heads down, or will have come on board with Starmer.

    Issues like the 2022 Stop the War letter about NATO probably helped keep people in line. 11 of them signed that, and within hours withdrew their names. Clearly even John McDonnell has realised things have changed, and the old tolerance of dissent has been replaced by an almost immediate threat of the whip being withdrawn.

    There are principles, and there are £90k jobs.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 22,022
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    Yep - but say it’s a stupid idea that has already been ruled out is pointless because 95% of people won’t have the first idea what @MisterBedfordshire is talking about
    You can write to his boss at CCHQ for more details
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,111

    Sean_F said:

    @Leon that’s true in general, but an appreciable minority of Mills and Boons’ readers are men, and there are women in my Military History Club who are formidably learned.

    It, like many things, @Leon says, is bullshit. It's inherited/learned behaviour, not intrinsic characteristics.

    In the past, many people have said that women cold never do well in motorsport. Including some on here. But as I point out, the problem is not male versus female capabilities, but the fact that so few women start off in the sport at the right time, and sponsorship and progression is so much harder for women. (Because sponsors want people who progress, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

    As it happens, Jamie Chadwick (*) has just got her first pole position in Indy NXT (**), and won her first race. The first woman to get a pole or win. A few races earlier, she was the third woman to get a podium.

    The problem is not capability; the problem is that so few get into the sport in the first place: because it is seen as a 'male' sport; and few girls start off at a young age. And when they did, barriers were often placed in their way. Chadwick has done well, in part, because her family are fairly well-off and could afford to fund her racing without much sponsorship.

    https://www.planetf1.com/features/milestone-jamie-chadwick-indy-nxt-win

    (*) Who I have mentioned on here before...
    (**) The feeder series for full Indycars.
    My aunt is a racing instructor. She got into it because my uncle is too, otherwise basically that talent would never have appeared. She drives better than anyone here, even @Dura_Ace (she doesn't get caught and she doesn't stack it). I agree with you about motorsport.

    But to claim male and female sexual preferences are entirely learned behaviour is ridiculous. Even in those polyandrous Nepalese/Tibetan/Whatever tribes there are very predictable differences in behaviour.
    I don't think I claimed it was entirely learned behaviour. But modern society and roles are much more complex than ancient tribes. Who nowadays would disagree with women becoming company directors, or lawyers, or even (heaven forfend!) PM? Yet a hundred years ago these would have been seen as very unusual, if not unthinkable. As an example: girls nowadays like pink, apparently. Yet in Victorian times, boys were dressed in pink. Many of these things are more societal than we might expect.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,082

    Dance producer Dario G, whose hits included Sunchyme and Carnaval de Paris, has died at the age of 53.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy00dgr4yjvo

    Sorry to hear this. Incidentally I only recently discovered that Sunchyme is based on a mid-80s hit called Life In A Northern Town by The Dream Academy.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310

    Dance producer Dario G, whose hits included Sunchyme and Carnaval de Paris, has died at the age of 53.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy00dgr4yjvo

    Not really in my musical orbit, but hats off for naming himself in homage to Dario Gradi (pre Barry Benel revelations).
  • 200 Tory seats seems a very very long way off now!
    100 in the balance I'd say. They desperately need to start bagging 'stop the landslide' votes but I just don't see it happening. They are just toxic

    Are you sure? I still think 150 to 200 plausible.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,037

    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    But that is all rather like drones in Wales. Say something very narrowly specific and complain that Labour haven't excluded that narrowly specific thing. Like the mythical drones in Wales supposedly now leering into non-innocent Tories' gardens to assess the improvements they have carefully failed to report to the valuation bureau.

    Is there any evidence they have this in mind? At all? As| opposed to being a general suggestion in the Tory media?
    Imagine you get tax relief at 45% or 40% on all your pension contributions. You build a pot of £1m which generates a £50k annuity. Now, you only pay 20% on the way out. Plus, you got to "borrow" the tax and get compounding returns for decades.

    Practically, getting rid of 45% tax relief would be a first step. Then reducing 40% to 30%. Salami slicing. Avoids increasing incime tax rates.

    Governments should encourage pension saving to prevent state-reliance in old age. But it might not be in the interest of government to make pensioners rich.

    This tory is relaxed about it. But then, this tory doesn't earn enough to pay higher rate tax.
    It'll only be 20% coming out of the pension if the pensioner stays below whatever the 20% tax rate (if such it is) at the time. There's no particular reason to think that the pension tax treatment will be anything (specifically) by the time I'm taking my pension, in the unlikely event my disgraceful lifestyle lets me live that long. Hopefully similar to today's but who knows.

    The point is to be a tax free untouchable savings vehicle. If you don't want it to be so then that's absolutely fine as a political choice (although I disagree). But don't get today's pensions savings policy mixed up with the future's pension taking policy cause you've no idea what that'll be.
    Of course, nothing is guaranteed - and indeed pensioners currently get a larger 0% chunk, I think? But it's hard to imagine any future government charging higher rates on pensioners than employees.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,536

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    I'd vote for almost anyone who promised a Goaty Beard tax, or required them to have Planning Permission.

    Perhaps.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,310

    Labour has not explicitly ruled out a window tax. Or a beard tax.

    You can only be sure with the Conservatives.

    I was hunting around for a riposte to @MisterBedfordshire 's sledging, but you just nailed it!
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,450

    200 Tory seats seems a very very long way off now!
    100 in the balance I'd say. They desperately need to start bagging 'stop the landslide' votes but I just don't see it happening. They are just toxic

    Are you sure? I still think 150 to 200 plausible.
    looking at some of the MRPs and other predictions there's going to be a up to 50 seats which are won on very low %ages. you could see a few won with less than 30%. This means that there's going to be a lot which by definition are in the balance. it wouldn't take much in that scenario to make it 75 or 175 seats for the Tories.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,825

    Strangely calm, I can deal with despair.

    It's the hope I cannot stand.

    And there is none.

    LOL!

    Every cloud had a silver lining Casino.

    It will soon be all over...
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,442

    Foxy said:

    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    One tax change that has not been ruled out by Labour is reform of pension tax relief.

    The general suggestion is that tax relief on higher rate tax be ended and it limited to essentially a credit of 20% against tax liability or even 25% so that lower paid workers get a boost.

    There is something quite seismic about this that buy to let landlords are well aware of. Such a change would end the tax exempt status of pensions.

    Sure, a tax credit of 20% against tax on pension contributions would on the face of it mean anyone on basic rate tax paid no more, but it dosent.

    Currently Pension contributions are not taxable income. So they don't count towards means testing on Universal Credit, they don't tip you over the higher rate tax threshold, they don't count towards the student loan repayment threshold, or parental means test, they don't count towards tipping you over the £100k childcare payment limit etc.

    Change it to a 20% credit and every penny of those pension contributions becomes taxable income.

    So, for example, someone earning £55k and paying £6k pension is now earning £56k taxable income. So they get a 20% credit on that £6k but as it is in the 40% band they still pay 20% tax on it (£1,200) and lose the marriage allowance.

    It is worse than that though. That £5k is probably matched by an employer £5k contribution, if that is now taxable income with a 20% credit then he pays another £1,200 tax for the benefit in kind from his employer.

    Plus he has two children. His income is now £62,000, so 10% of the families child benefit is clawed back.

    It is a similar story for the family on £33,000 who pay £3,000 towards pension and get £3,000 matching payment from employer. Both are "refunded" by the new 20% tax credit but the taxable income has gone up from £30k to £36k.

    So income £6k higher for Universal Credit means test. Universal credit taper rate is 55%. So £3,300 hit.

    Gets worse though. He has a student loan. So 9% repayments on that £6,000 too. Another £540 gone.

    So the end of salary sacrifice for pension contributions ?

    People on the right have been talking about this for the past few weeks as if it's a certainty, but it's never been mentioned within Labour circles as far as I can see, certainly not since Starmer bedded in as leader.

    Has anyone actually got any form of a source for this, or is it just doomcasting?
    It's a bit like the CGT talk the other day, or CGT on main residence, part paranoia and part mischief.
    Yes. For what it’s worth, I think Labour will raise taxes. Because they’ll have to. I suspect that will be CGT (not on first houses though) and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see income tax go up for higher earners (exactly how high TBC).

    But a lot of this stuff reads like pie in the sky doom-mongering and I see little evidence of it being attractive to an incoming government. Disincentivising pension saving and lumbering homeowners with a sales tax are going to be fundamentally unpopular to huge chunks of the electorate. I just can’t see it.
    Taxing someone when they sell a house, and have a huge dollop of cash landing in their lap, makes more sense than taxing someone when they buy a house, and need to borrow money to pay the tax.
    Sure, if you’ve got plenty of equity in your house. What if you don’t?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,946
    edited June 17

    200 Tory seats seems a very very long way off now!
    100 in the balance I'd say. They desperately need to start bagging 'stop the landslide' votes but I just don't see it happening. They are just toxic

    Are you sure? I still think 150 to 200 plausible.
    I don't see where the votes come from. For 150 to 200 I'd think they need 27% minimum, if it were one or two pollsters having them under 20 then perhaps but it's 5 pollsters with the bulk of the rest very low 20s.
    If their VI starts to pick up ill reassess but I see zero, nada, zilch sign anyone is coming back to them......
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