I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
It's a bit of a weird one. I suppose the only people still talking about it are those still railing against lockdown, or those still demanding that everyone wears masks. Perhaps Johnson's departure meant that he acted as a ritual scapegoat for the entire period and all its mistakes, for most people.
Normally, after an event which killed more than a hundred thousand, and imposed massive restrictions, you'd expect the public hindsight to be strong, and the judgement duly harsh.
The remaining questions are how quickly this will happen, how much ongoing damage will be done in the meantime to kids stuck in an incompetent and overworked medical system, or in states lacking youth gender medicine entirely, and what sort of accountability there will be for the journalists and “experts” who so badly botched this issue. On the media side, we don’t appear to be off to a good start: CNN, NPR, CBS News, NBC News, Vox, and Scientific American have almost entirely ignored the Cass Review, hoping it’ll fade away.
While I'm not into 'days' (though Saint George is at least the national saint), it'd be nice to go a year without the repetitive chorus of "He wasn't born here, you know".
Yes, I know. People bang on about it every year.
The passing of the Rwanda bill on St George's day makes the fact even more apt today.
Saint George killed a dragon?
It’s up there with a virgin birth.
Let’s be honest he was high on magic mushrooms and in all likelihood killed a dragonfly.
Dragon mythology is global and rather hard to explain.
I like to think that it's a deep-rooted instinct inherited from proto-mammal ancestors who lived in the shadows of dinosaurs 66m years ago. That's bollocks of course but I still like to think it.
Isn’t it just an uninformed explanation for dinosaur fossils?
Not sure I believe that one. How often did our ancient ancestors come across well preserved, relatively complete dinosaur fossils?
I don't think dinosaur fossils entirely explain dragon myths, but our ancient ancestors came across enough fossils that we know they had ideas about them. E.g., see "The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times" by Adrienne Mayor (2011).
Salt water crocs could be one explanation in the Far East.
Plenty of muggers* in India/Pakistan, too, and Nile crocs in the, erm, Nile, as well as Palestine and Mespot, in historical times.
Bondegezou's point does also of course work with non-reptiley things like Cenozoic elephant/mammoth/rhinoceros bones, for instance. Don't need the (strictly speaking anhistorical) concept of "dinosaur" to find bones of giants such as those fossils.
*Crocodylus palustris, not the kind one gets in London etc. (outside the Zoological Society's Gardens).
Chinese Dragons do look very similar to Western depictions too.
A bit longer and wormier maybe? Though actually more like the old mediaeval depictions which were also rather wormier.
I'd guess that 20th and 21st C depictions of dragons are heavily influenced by dinosaur aesthetics. The scaly skin, lines of teeth, fatter torsoes etc.
Yes, quite possibly. I always feel a bit sorry for the dragon in old pictures of St George. It looks like he's killing an oversized lizard. Dragons have got a lot bigger in recent pop culture, making slaying them seem a bit more heroic.
“The people of Ankh-Morpork had a straightforward, no-nonsense approach to entertainment, and while they were looking forward to seeing a dragon slain, they'd be happy to settle instead for seeing someone being baked alive in his own armour. You didn't get the chance every day to see someone baked alive in their own armour. It would be something for the children to remember.”
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
It's a bit of a weird one. I suppose the only people still talking about it are those still railing against lockdown, or those still demanding that everyone wears masks. Perhaps Johnson's departure meant that he acted as a ritual scapegoat for the entire period and all its mistakes, for most people.
Normally, after an event which killed more than a hundred thousand, and imposed massive restrictions, you'd expect the public hindsight to be strong, and the judgement duly harsh.
I don't know about that - natural disasters can sometimes make leaders quite popular. The war in Ukraine has been catastrophic, yet Volodymyr Zelensky manages to be pretty popular. It depends how blame is apportioned. And actually, while I would maintain we took the wrong approach, we nevertheless took an approach which people demanded we take.
ISTR a Spectator article that @Leon linked to suggesting that what would happen was that we would by and large forget all about it - as was the case with Spanish flu. It doesn't make for a good story, so we forget.
Those of us who maintained government restrictions were far too strong don't want to forget about it - but we were in a minority.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
Well yes, I know experiences varied. One thing I'm fortunate with is that my daughter won't have had her education disrupted by lockdown being too young. Of course it was shocking for the country as a whole.
I just chatted with a lovely young South Korean chap - there are loads of South Koreans doing the Camino; Lee, the lady on the airport bus, told me there would be, but I wasn't expecting quite so many
And I was expecting groups; most of them are solo ladies or couples. Of all ages, and all super friendly
Anyway, this young chap, when I told him I'm from England, excitedly told me that he has a "Lion Air fright" booked from Santiago to Stansted so that he can go to see his favourite football team and player (Spurs and Son obvs)
He will "fry home flom Heathlow"
Don't mock until you've tried pronouncing the Korean consonant ㄹ correctly in context. 😊
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
Well yes, I know experiences varied. One thing I'm fortunate with is that my daughter won't have had her education disrupted by lockdown being too young. Of course it was shocking for the country as a whole.
WFH good for you but bad for your daughter. The country in microcosm.
I think it's the English equivalent of the Scots Borders burghs ba games with Uppies and Doonies. Here the St Georges are battling to get their banner into the little hole just inside the door at Westminster Abbey and the dark team are aiming to bounce their batons off the nose of the nearest bronze lion in Trafalgar Square.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
Well yes, I know experiences varied. One thing I'm fortunate with is that my daughter won't have had her education disrupted by lockdown being too young. Of course it was shocking for the country as a whole.
WFH good for you but bad for your daughter. The country in microcosm.
Her education wasn't disrupted due to the fact she wasn't born !
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
It's a bit of a weird one. I suppose the only people still talking about it are those still railing against lockdown, or those still demanding that everyone wears masks. Perhaps Johnson's departure meant that he acted as a ritual scapegoat for the entire period and all its mistakes, for most people.
Normally, after an event which killed more than a hundred thousand, and imposed massive restrictions, you'd expect the public hindsight to be strong, and the judgement duly harsh.
I don't know about that - natural disasters can sometimes make leaders quite popular. The war in Ukraine has been catastrophic, yet Volodymyr Zelensky manages to be pretty popular. It depends how blame is apportioned. And actually, while I would maintain we took the wrong approach, we nevertheless took an approach which people demanded we take.
ISTR a Spectator article that @Leon linked to suggesting that what would happen was that we would by and large forget all about it - as was the case with Spanish flu. It doesn't make for a good story, so we forget.
Those of us who maintained government restrictions were far too strong don't want to forget about it - but we were in a minority.
Wars are very different. There's an enemy to direct all the anger towards.
Natural disasters seem generally to be very bad for incumbent government's popularity. Bush and Katrina is an obvious example.
But perhaps it is that most people would rather forget.
I just chatted with a lovely young South Korean chap - there are loads of South Koreans doing the Camino; Lee, the lady on the airport bus, told me there would be, but I wasn't expecting quite so many
And I was expecting groups; most of them are solo ladies or couples. Of all ages, and all super friendly
Anyway, this young chap, when I told him I'm from England, excitedly told me that he has a "Lion Air fright" booked from Santiago to Stansted so that he can go to see his favourite football team and player (Spurs and Son obvs)
He will "fry home flom Heathlow"
Don't mock until you've tried pronouncing the Korean consonant ㄹ correctly in context. 😊
I only mock gently, and "Lion Air fright to Stansted" was too good to leave unreported!
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
I had a bloody awful lockdown. Three young kids who I was attempting to teach at the same time as working from home. But I don't take Pulpstar's reminiscences as a slight. He isn't saying we should have more of it - just that it wasn't awful for him personally. I can quite see how in the right purposes it could be quite pleasant. Just because some people have it bad doesn't mean we all have to.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
I had a bloody awful lockdown. Three young kids who I was attempting to teach at the same time as working from home. But I don't take Pulpstar's reminiscences as a slight. He isn't saying we should have more of it - just that it wasn't awful for him personally. I can quite see how in the right purposes it could be quite pleasant. Just because some people have it bad doesn't mean we all have to.
Yes, people shouldn't have to pretend they hated the covid lockdown if they didn't. It was fine for me too - apart from worrying about catching it and dying.
All I see when I see the government focusing on this fringe issue is a government that isn't focusing on a) the massive impact caused by legal immigration that's several orders of magnitudes above the 'small boats' b) the issues that come with that level of legal immigration, including the housing crisis, health, education, policing etc, that remain unresolved c) the fact that it's a piss poor diversion from the cost of living crisis, energy bills, leasehold reform, interest rates, productivity, skills and education, the fact half our schools are falling down due to ancient concrete, etc.
Someone needs to tell Sunak that putting a few boat people onto a plane to Rwanda of all places isn't a vote winner.
This is a government that has absolutely no idea how to fix the many, many problems of this country. It is also a government that has caused many of them.
Incredible. Safety of Rwanda Bill - I'd not really clocked this. How on earth can a UK legislature pass something like this, naming another country, without being subject to ridicule? I guess it can't.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
I had a bloody awful lockdown. Three young kids who I was attempting to teach at the same time as working from home. But I don't take Pulpstar's reminiscences as a slight. He isn't saying we should have more of it - just that it wasn't awful for him personally. I can quite see how in the right purposes it could be quite pleasant. Just because some people have it bad doesn't mean we all have to.
I was phenomenally lucky - large house to myself (which I don't mind) on Guernsey, which had an epidemiologist as CMO and probably managed COVID the best of the British Isles - again partly through luck - they could close the border - and did (try doing that at Dover with 10,000 trucks/day) then came out of lockdown and didn't go back in again - controlled border, testing and rigorous enforcement - up to £10,000 for breaches. Astonishingly lucky - but I suspect for the vast majority it was pretty grim - hence Whitty's surprise that they stuck at it - "lockdown fatigue" being a constant worry about when to start the first lockdown.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
Looking back, lockdown was amazing for me personally.
Good for you. Be thankful you werent a single mum trapped in a tower block. Empathy bypass methinks.
I had a bloody awful lockdown. Three young kids who I was attempting to teach at the same time as working from home. But I don't take Pulpstar's reminiscences as a slight. He isn't saying we should have more of it - just that it wasn't awful for him personally. I can quite see how in the right purposes it could be quite pleasant. Just because some people have it bad doesn't mean we all have to.
Yes, people shouldn't have to pretend they hated the covid lockdown if they didn't. It was fine for me too - apart from worrying about catching it and dying.
My favourites are those who hi-tailed it out of the smoke in utter terror and now explain how they laughed in the face of COVID19.
I can only surmise the covid rating is because people have fond memories of the weather in lockdown 1.
It's a bit of a weird one. I suppose the only people still talking about it are those still railing against lockdown, or those still demanding that everyone wears masks. Perhaps Johnson's departure meant that he acted as a ritual scapegoat for the entire period and all its mistakes, for most people.
Normally, after an event which killed more than a hundred thousand, and imposed massive restrictions, you'd expect the public hindsight to be strong, and the judgement duly harsh.
I don't know about that - natural disasters can sometimes make leaders quite popular. The war in Ukraine has been catastrophic, yet Volodymyr Zelensky manages to be pretty popular. It depends how blame is apportioned. And actually, while I would maintain we took the wrong approach, we nevertheless took an approach which people demanded we take.
ISTR a Spectator article that @Leon linked to suggesting that what would happen was that we would by and large forget all about it - as was the case with Spanish flu. It doesn't make for a good story, so we forget.
Those of us who maintained government restrictions were far too strong don't want to forget about it - but we were in a minority.
I'm fascinated by this amnesia about covid. I think most people want to move on and forget about it (albeit mourning anyone they have lost). I'm fascinated by the events around the Black Death too. Crecy (1346) and Poitiers (1356) are two huge English victories in the hundred years war and yet in between the Black Death came and killed between and 1/3 and 1/2 of everyone. They just seemed to have carried on as if nothing had happened. Sure death from disease etc was a lot more prevalent back then, but to have Poitiers so soon after?
Interestingly (well to me at least) it took 30 years for the discontent among the peasants to burst into the peasants revolt. Many had been able to try to change their lives after the Black Death as land was vacant and needed farming. But the elites had tried to carry on as before right up to 1381.
Check out Sunak party political NATO press conference. You'll love the "statesmanship". Pippa Crerar's question to Stoltenberg is the bit you want.
Sounds like he's decided to run against Jeremy Corbyn instead of Keir Starmer. Clever Rishi! Does Jeremy know though? He'll need to get his Paul Smith suit dry-cleaned.
The opinions of a middle-class, middle-aged, historically aware but vaguely gammony man on St. George:
It's hard to get too excited about him either way as an individual. Clearly he was introduced in the plantaganet era by foreign kings with different values. It would have been nice to have retained one of our pre-Norman actually English saints as our patron saint - Cuthbert, say, or Alban. But largely they all had daft names. So maybe not. In any case, the concept of a patron saint is a bit foreign now: we don't really have much more in common with the values of Cuthbert or Alban than we do with George. It's hard to get too enthusiastic about the concept of early English Christians: mostly they tend to come across as on the side of Christianity, rather than of the English. It's hard, for the vaguely partisan 21st century Englishman, to side with dark ages English Christians over dark ages English pagans; and harder still to be unequivocally sure that the right side won at the synod of Whitby. Essentially it would be hard to find an English saint who we could be unequivocally supportive of.
Still, everyone apparently has to have a patron saint, and St. George is probably no worse than anyone else. He has a nice flag. And more to the point, he's who we've got; he's been our patron saint for generations, and that is more important (for the English or anyone else) than whatever qualities he himself might have possessed. Frankly the qualities of the saint himself are incidental: it's a national day, which again, everyone apparently has to have, and one in mid-Spring seems the right sort of time to have one.
We don't make a massive fuss, but we don't let the day go past entirely uncommented on as we might with, say, Rogation Sunday. Seems about right.
I once heard an American describe Bonfire Night as the British national day. I initially thought this a cultural misreading: they have fireworks on 4th July, which is their national day; our fireworks are on 5th November, so that must be our national day. A big oversimplification. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought it to be true. Bonfire night is when we are at our most unselfconsciously British. It's one of the very few solely British traditions, and one which we do without really thinking about. We rehash the historical story, but we don't really think about the significance of it: we just set fire to things and blow things up. You could, if you want, see it as the first win for parliamentary democracy over absolutism, but most people don't really think about things that deeply, and it's not really in the British tradition to do so. You don't HAVE to do anything; your presence isn't required anywhere. No-one needs to fall out about its significance. It's just something that happens. That to me makes it a true national day.
Speak for yourself , I am certainly not British on 5th November or any other date.
You just don't identify as British, malcolm. It would take another referendum, or your renouncing your citizenship, to change the uncomfortable fact.
Neither of those things would change that fact. Scotland voting for independence wouldn't change its geography, and Malcolm becoming stateless would not change his origin.
Of course they would. Scottish independence would make malcolm solely Scottish, without the taint of Britain.
I might as well say that you are European.
I assume you're being sarcastic, but just in case, I am European.
The answer is going to depend on what you mean. Our objective and legal citizenship (for most of us) is that of the UK of GB and NI. Our subjective one is whatsoever you will. Hope that ends the discussion......
Of course it doesn't. Citizenship has nothing to do with it. People from Britain are British - it's simply a function of geography. Just like the most ardent remainer and the fiercest leaver are still European, because geographically we're in Europe. We haven't gone anywhere. If and when Scotland ever becomes independent it will be as British the day after it as it was the day before.
I don't think that's right. 'British' has a legal status as in, for example, 'British citizen'.
Something like 'European' mostly doesn't, (though of course 'EU citizen' does - and when the UK left the EU most British citizens lost that EU citizen status.
It doesn't matter what political dimensions or identities overlay it, it is still a simple geographical fact that Scotland is part of Britain, and will remain so until it finds a way to tow itself to Sweden.
Well you were arguing, sorry if I misunderstood, that people in Scotland/Scotland itself would be NO LESS BRITISH if Scotland becomes independent. This is clearly bollocks Britain is not just the name of island, 'British' refers to a nationality and not just a geographical feature. So Scotland wouldn't 'as British the day after as it was the day before'
Are you right in the head, British is not and has never been a nationality.
Comments
Normally, after an event which killed more than a hundred thousand, and imposed massive restrictions, you'd expect the public hindsight to be strong, and the judgement duly harsh.
The remaining questions are how quickly this will happen, how much ongoing damage will be done in the meantime to kids stuck in an incompetent and overworked medical system, or in states lacking youth gender medicine entirely, and what sort of accountability there will be for the journalists and “experts” who so badly botched this issue. On the media side, we don’t appear to be off to a good start: CNN, NPR, CBS News, NBC News, Vox, and Scientific American have almost entirely ignored the Cass Review, hoping it’ll fade away.
https://archive.ph/9Encm#selection-1033.0-1059.70
Happy St George's Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_6d3JBBo4s
ISTR a Spectator article that @Leon linked to suggesting that what would happen was that we would by and large forget all about it - as was the case with Spanish flu. It doesn't make for a good story, so we forget.
Those of us who maintained government restrictions were far too strong don't want to forget about it - but we were in a minority.
In the absence of Starmer setting out any policies for his forthcoming government, Sunak is going to set the policy pledges and priorities for him.
"Start the flights. Stop the boats"
Oh dear.
Natural disasters seem generally to be very bad for incumbent government's popularity. Bush and Katrina is an obvious example.
But perhaps it is that most people would rather forget.
I'm sure Starmer will adopt this revision to his programme for government.
But I don't take Pulpstar's reminiscences as a slight. He isn't saying we should have more of it - just that it wasn't awful for him personally. I can quite see how in the right purposes it could be quite pleasant. Just because some people have it bad doesn't mean we all have to.
Someone needs to tell Sunak that putting a few boat people onto a plane to Rwanda of all places isn't a vote winner.
This is a government that has absolutely no idea how to fix the many, many problems of this country. It is also a government that has caused many of them.
NEW THREAD
Interestingly (well to me at least) it took 30 years for the discontent among the peasants to burst into the peasants revolt. Many had been able to try to change their lives after the Black Death as land was vacant and needed farming. But the elites had tried to carry on as before right up to 1381.