It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
"There was me, that is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel, and my three droogs, that is Priti, Govey, and Dom, and we sat in the Kensington Milkbar trying to make up our Raab-oodocks what to do with the evening. The Kensington Milkbar sold Milk-plus, milk plus GM Soya or Corn Syrup or Chlorinated Chicken, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old No-Deal Brexit."
It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
As there is no free trade agreement with the US, chicken imports to the UK from the US are still subject to tariffs. And therefore are not competitive.
I'm probably naïve, but I always thought the whole point and justification of privatisation was to encourage efficiency and improve quality through competition between competing suppliers in a free, capitalist market.
I have no choice but to get my water through Southern Water.
I fear you are going to be subject to more rightsplaining from the PB Libertarians. Watch out!
Time to revisit the town taken over by Libertarians then bears in New Hampshire.
There is no reason that administrators or liquidators can't be called in, but with the administrator/liquidator under instructions that continuity of service comes first and the creditors come second.
I think that's what is supposed to happen, but if none of the other water companies want to take on the obligation (even after the bondholders are wiped out), or if this is precluded for competition reasons, then the government would have to recapitalise Thames Water, or set up a new water company from scratch to take the assets.
A new company from scratch would take the assets, not the liabilities.
And there's little reason why private firms couldn't do that, not just a state firm.
And there's also no reason the state couldn't get the assets for cheap, burn the creditors, then float the new firm and make a profit on that too restoring the profit motive on following the regulations while wiping out the liabilities.
The point is there should be no firm too big to fail. Big firms can fail and they need to know they can fail too, if you want to have a healthy economy. If Thames fails, then tough shit for their creditors, they're piss out of luck.
Iridium and OneWeb are classic examples of investors and debtors loses their shirts, business continues without missing a step.
Thames Water is such an un-tiktok-friendly name. Baroness-Mone-Water sounds so much more profitable consumer-friendly.
It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
As there is no free trade agreement with the US, chicken imports to the UK from the US are still subject to tariffs. And therefore are not competitive.
It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
As there is no free trade agreement with the US, chicken imports to the UK from the US are still subject to tariffs. And therefore are not competitive.
Hence no chlorinated chicken.
They just need to re-brand it as 'Well brined". Problem solved.
Even if Sunak does pull the trigger earlier than currently expected I suspect he won’t have polling day on the first Thursday of June which has often been a favoured day for summer elections as it would be a gift for tabloid headline writers.
You mean D-Day?
Yup.
Aside from fun for the tabloid headline writers the 80th anniversary of D-Day is probably not a good day to hold an election.
Can't help thinking whether Unternehmen Seelöwe might be channelled instead.
Battle of the Bilge (vapid or otherwise); one last throw of the dice, enemy air cover interrupted by Scotch mist emanating from GB News & the like, one’s stoßtruppen dressed in the uniforms/policies of the enemy and the odd atrocity throw in. It’ll be great.
And this. Many parents share a growing sense of anger that super-rich and internationally powerful Big Tech has been given a free pass to push an unsafe and addictive product on our children. At a recent speech in the House of Lords, US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told parliamentarians that if social media was a pharmaceutical drug, it would be withdrawn for safety reasons.
Many parents wet themselves if their child doesn't have a phone. Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
And this. Many parents share a growing sense of anger that super-rich and internationally powerful Big Tech has been given a free pass to push an unsafe and addictive product on our children. At a recent speech in the House of Lords, US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told parliamentarians that if social media was a pharmaceutical drug, it would be withdrawn for safety reasons.
Most parents wet themselves if their child doesn't have a phone. Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
And this. Many parents share a growing sense of anger that super-rich and internationally powerful Big Tech has been given a free pass to push an unsafe and addictive product on our children. At a recent speech in the House of Lords, US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told parliamentarians that if social media was a pharmaceutical drug, it would be withdrawn for safety reasons.
Many parents wet themselves if their child doesn't have a phone. Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
And this. Many parents share a growing sense of anger that super-rich and internationally powerful Big Tech has been given a free pass to push an unsafe and addictive product on our children. At a recent speech in the House of Lords, US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told parliamentarians that if social media was a pharmaceutical drug, it would be withdrawn for safety reasons.
Most parents wet themselves if their child doesn't have a phone. Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
Don’t they have the school’s phone number?
In fairness, at my son’s school they are utterly hopeless at passing on messages. I just text him and it pops up on his watch (no phones allowed in glass). Works well enough
It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
As there is no free trade agreement with the US, chicken imports to the UK from the US are still subject to tariffs. And therefore are not competitive.
Hence no chlorinated chicken.
Turns out we really were at the back of the queue!
It is time to accept that privatisation of utilities and the railways has been an unmitigated disaster.
Depends whether you class telecoms as a utility? That has been a success IMO.
Energy FAIL Rail FAIL Water MASSIVE FAIL Telecoms SUCCESS
...is my scorecard.
I don't have an inherent fervour for nationalisation, so as a blanket policy for anything I'm not in favour. But water and energy? People need to work much harder to persuade me just how good we apparently have it.
Water has been a massive success
Come on BR. Water is a disaster.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic?
Water is the main privatisation that I feel was pointless. What innovation is possible in water supply?
Plenty.
If you discharge you get fined.
If you get fined you lose money.
Therefore there's a profit motive to not discharge, to not get fined.
Innovation.
Water levels improved dramatically post-privatisation. Rivers and beaches when water was nationalised were far, far, worse. This is an objective fact.
The government fines itself all the time. This should happen more.
I agree that pollution was worse in ye olden days, and the current figures might have more to do with measurement than an actual increase. There are also problems with increased building and the need for improved facilities and investment to cope - which is out of the water companies' hands.
But I don't see that these improvements could not have occurred in a nationalised system - indeed, water supply improved massively whilst nationalised. It's complex.
Either way there is plenty of scope for both innovation and accountability with a privatised utility,.
The good thing is that there will be a long exile in the political wilderness for these kinds of views (in this country).
Most of the rest of the country know the country is a shambles at the moment and we hold utility companies up as examples of the mess.
So you claim, yet not a single person refutes the basic fact that the waterways are leaps and bounds better than they were pre-privatisation.
I do and so does everyone I know. They are a thousand times worse.
They are in atrocious state now. Have you actually talked to anyone in the EA? Or surfers? (See for example, Surfers Against Sewage)
By the way, do you use trains? I do every week, often multiple times. Another example of a complete shambles at present. No BR wasn’t brilliant but the point is that after 14 years of Conservative Government these utilities should all be soooooooooooooooo much better.
There are no excuses left for them.
They are not. We have only been measuring these kind of incidents for the last few years. Thirty years ago rivers like the Thames were dead zones, hardly and fish etc. Vastly improved now. Yes we have a specific problem, partly related to climate change, partly to poorly built new housing developments and, whisper it quietly, all those tarmacked over drives.
Plus intense agriculture. The Wye is very much poisoned by chicken farms
Because we all love cheap chicken.
Because we all need to eat.
Whatever happened to the chlorinated chicken? Have I been eating it? It was all remainers talked about for around 18 months
As there is no free trade agreement with the US, chicken imports to the UK from the US are still subject to tariffs. And therefore are not competitive.
Hence no chlorinated chicken.
Turns out we really were at the back of the queue!
The newly-elected MP for Uxbridge, Steve Tuckwell, shows his support for free-market economics against the faceless bureaucrats of the British National Chippy Corporation. I don't understand how this is even supposed to work, and there must be easier ways to get your face in the local rag.
BT and British Airways are the only successful privatisations. And BT only in the last five years.
No reason either way we could not have retained a minority share in both.
Something we could learn from countries like Germany with government stakes in private companies. Over here, it is all or nothing, the unthinking dogma of both sides.
Sir Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner praise Boris Johnson's vision for levelling up the nation as they accuse Rishi Sunak of killing it at birth
They claim that Johnson's analysis of regional inequality was 'good' but that Sunak failed to back the policy and 'give regions the levers to make it happen'
Starmer & Rayner are playing directly into Tory in-fighting over levelling up - Johnson has criticised Sunak over levelling up while Andy Street, West Midlands mayor, has accused govt of creating 'begging bowl culture" over levelling up funding
That's a bit rich of Johnson and Street - just think how much real levelling up could have taken place if the £100 bn still likely to be spent on what's left on HS2 had been diverted into smaller projects actually needed in the North and Midlands.
Street bears prime responsibility for that as he was on Johnson's review board which had the potential to stop HS2 in its tracks, but still gave the go ahead in 2020. As an HS2 cheerleader, his appointment of all people to that board showed that Johnson was never serious about potentially halting the project.
That fundamentally misunderstands the point/need for HS2 or rather, something like it. You need the new line as capacity to free up and link the existing network. It was a key part of 'Northern Powerhouse' Rail. So by cancelling it you've lost lots of the 'small projects' that are actually needed and put everything back to the drawing board and piecemeal promises most think will never happen as they themselves have to get through various hurdles when HS2 was spade ready.
Which is not to say it hasn't been mismanaged - mainly by grossly inflating the budget to placate Tory MPs in the home counties by putting it in unnecessary tunnels.
But having spent that money and done what they've made the expensive, difficult bit - it's farcical to cancel the bit that was really needed and which was designed to greatly improve rail links across the north. For a pot of money that's not directed at the north, will be used on sticking plaster projects and vanity ones that don't change the overall picture and will need redoing, are bad policy or will end up being raided for other things.
So yes, Street and Johnson are right on this. It's the idiots who don't understand transport policy and thus HS2 and thus have landed us in the worst of both worlds who deserve the criticism. Not those who backed a project whose flaws were mainly down to the same idiots who cancelled it for costing too much after they deliberately played wreckers to it for political reasons and ignorance of what it was to do for the north.
And this. Many parents share a growing sense of anger that super-rich and internationally powerful Big Tech has been given a free pass to push an unsafe and addictive product on our children. At a recent speech in the House of Lords, US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told parliamentarians that if social media was a pharmaceutical drug, it would be withdrawn for safety reasons.
Most parents wet themselves if their child doesn't have a phone. Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
Don’t they have the school’s phone number?
In fairness, at my son’s school they are utterly hopeless at passing on messages. I just text him and it pops up on his watch (no phones allowed in glass). Works well enough
BT and British Airways are the only successful privatisations. And BT only in the last five years.
No reason either way we could not have retained a minority share in both.
Something we could learn from countries like Germany with government stakes in private companies. Over here, it is all or nothing, the unthinking dogma of both sides.
Spot on.
Dogma is exactly the right word. Unthinking dogma is even worse.
I didn’t always agree with Margaret Thatcher. For example, her brilliant and prophetic 1989 speech on climate change to the UN was years, decades even, ahead of its time but she marred it imho by stating that the answer to curbing climate change was, er, to leave it to the private sector. No no no, Mrs T.
At least, though, she was an intelligent dogmatist who thought it through. It’s when you come across boneheads, who exist on both sides as you say, that it becomes exasperating. And damaging.
Comments
Hence no chlorinated chicken.
It’ll be great.
Though that would mean Dec-Jan I guess.
Resistance to no phones in schools is largely anxious parent driven.
What constituency declared first in the 1992, 1997 and 2005 elections?
The answer is alliterative.
(I got it spot on in my quiz)
No reason either way we could not have retained a minority share in both.
BP
British Gas
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-mp-steve-tuckwell-uxbridge-fish-and-chip-shop-viral-video-hypocrisy-b1148140.html
BP, playing Devil's advocate, all those dividends could pay for the imaginary 40 new hospitals, over and over again.
Rolls Royce is a bit of a Red Herring as it was only nationalised in order to save the company, a bit like Thames Water.
Which is not to say it hasn't been mismanaged - mainly by grossly inflating the budget to placate Tory MPs in the home counties by putting it in unnecessary tunnels.
But having spent that money and done what they've made the expensive, difficult bit - it's farcical to cancel the bit that was really needed and which was designed to greatly improve rail links across the north. For a pot of money that's not directed at the north, will be used on sticking plaster projects and vanity ones that don't change the overall picture and will need redoing, are bad policy or will end up being raided for other things.
So yes, Street and Johnson are right on this. It's the idiots who don't understand transport policy and thus HS2 and thus have landed us in the worst of both worlds who deserve the criticism. Not those who backed a project whose flaws were mainly down to the same idiots who cancelled it for costing too much after they deliberately played wreckers to it for political reasons and ignorance of what it was to do for the north.
Dogma is exactly the right word. Unthinking dogma is even worse.
I didn’t always agree with Margaret Thatcher. For example, her brilliant and prophetic 1989 speech on climate change to the UN was years, decades even, ahead of its time but she marred it imho by stating that the answer to curbing climate change was, er, to leave it to the private sector. No no no, Mrs T.
At least, though, she was an intelligent dogmatist who thought it through. It’s when you come across boneheads, who exist on both sides as you say, that it becomes exasperating. And damaging.