Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this day exactly two years ago YouGov had CON in the lea

SystemSystem Posts: 11,703
edited February 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this day exactly two years ago YouGov had CON in the lead on 40pc

At the end of February 2012 the Tories were still getting the benefit from the after-glow of what became known as the “Veto-gasm” – the polling boost that followed from David Cameron’s famous Brussels veto.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    That "Change 2012-2014" graph paints a fairly stark picture...
  • Options
    Dave is crap???
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    So the story of the last 2 years is that Labour have gone absolutely nowhere - they have just benefited from the movement of voters that weren't going to vote Labour, and still aren't going to vote Labour. (On a net basis of course)
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    The economy recovering without a subsequent recovery in the poll ratings of the coalition parties is very easy to nail down.

    It is perceived that the current economic recovery benefits just a few people rather than the wider public. A stagnating minimum wage and low income wage growth coupled with a large reduction in corporation taxes and the reduction of the top tax rate to 45p has been devastating to the electoral prospects of both parties. Until they can show they are on the side of the working man by boosting the minimum wage and cutting taxes for small businesses and middle income earners they will not benefit from the current economic recovery. It is too concentrated in London and a few other urban areas.

    Right now, the polls are correct. The coalition is in power but rather than governing for the whole country, they are governing for the south of England and south of Wales only. The gains of the economic recovery need to be spread to other regions in the Midlands, North and Scotland. While the coalition parties do not have much to gain in these areas, in term of seats, the perception that they are in it to help everyone rather than just their own narrow set of supporters in the south will be enough to see their poll rating recover.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    This is one of these memes that gets banded around a lot here. The Tory position was already well down before Osborne stood up and gave his budget.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,002
    Good to see a politician reclaiming words from the far right instead of being too scared to say what he believes for fear of lefty nonsense


    "Farage closed on the rousing note that UKIP would "make patriotism as respectable idea once again". Earlier in the day he was cornered by the BBC, who asked him about the party's new slogan: "Love Britain, Vote UKIP", which the Guido Fawkes blog pointed out was strikingly similar to that of the extremist British National Party.

    Farage responded robustly, "The National Front use the Union Jack, we haven't burned them all have we? Come on... To hell with the BNP or anyone else... It's our slogan now. Love Britain, Vote UKIP. Not changing it. Keeping it forever. Keeping it until the day we exit the European Union, get back control over our borders, get back control of our country, and get back a sense of self respect of who we are as a nation""

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/02/28/Farage-speech-ukip-conference
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited February 2014
    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    The economy recovering without a subsequent recovery in the poll ratings of the coalition parties is very easy to nail down.

    It is perceived that the current economic recovery benefits just a few people rather than the wider public. A stagnating minimum wage and low income wage growth coupled with a large reduction in corporation taxes and the reduction of the top tax rate to 45p has been devastating to the electoral prospects of both parties. Until they can show they are on the side of the working man by boosting the minimum wage and cutting taxes for small businesses and middle income earners they will not benefit from the current economic recovery. It is too concentrated in London and a few other urban areas.

    Right now, the polls are correct. The coalition is in power but rather than governing for the whole country, they are governing for the south of England and south of Wales only. The gains of the economic recovery need to be spread to other regions in the Midlands, North and Scotland. While the coalition parties do not have much to gain in these areas, in term of seats, the perception that they are in it to help everyone rather than just their own narrow set of supporters in the south will be enough to see their poll rating recover.

    In this part of the midlands (Leamington) things are going pretty well. House prices are up, restaurants are full, unemployment is low. It's a marginal that I'd expect the Tories to hold comfortably. However, go just a few miles further north towards Coventry, Nuneaton and North Warwickshire generally and it is a very different story.

  • Options
    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    edited February 2014

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
  • Options
    isam said:

    Good to see a politician reclaiming words from the far right instead of being too scared to say what he believes for fear of lefty nonsense


    "Farage closed on the rousing note that UKIP would "make patriotism as respectable idea once again". Earlier in the day he was cornered by the BBC, who asked him about the party's new slogan: "Love Britain, Vote UKIP", which the Guido Fawkes blog pointed out was strikingly similar to that of the extremist British National Party.

    Farage responded robustly, "The National Front use the Union Jack, we haven't burned them all have we? Come on... To hell with the BNP or anyone else... It's our slogan now. Love Britain, Vote UKIP. Not changing it. Keeping it forever. Keeping it until the day we exit the European Union, get back control over our borders, get back control of our country, and get back a sense of self respect of who we are as a nation""

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/02/28/Farage-speech-ukip-conference

    You have to admit, Farage is a breathe of fresh air compared with most (if not nearly all) politicans. He just speaks like a normal guy who says what he thinks..
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    isam said:

    Good to see a politician reclaiming words from the far right instead of being too scared to say what he believes for fear of lefty nonsense


    "Farage closed on the rousing note that UKIP would "make patriotism as respectable idea once again". Earlier in the day he was cornered by the BBC, who asked him about the party's new slogan: "Love Britain, Vote UKIP", which the Guido Fawkes blog pointed out was strikingly similar to that of the extremist British National Party.

    Farage responded robustly, "The National Front use the Union Jack, we haven't burned them all have we? Come on... To hell with the BNP or anyone else... It's our slogan now. Love Britain, Vote UKIP. Not changing it. Keeping it forever. Keeping it until the day we exit the European Union, get back control over our borders, get back control of our country, and get back a sense of self respect of who we are as a nation""

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/02/28/Farage-speech-ukip-conference

    If the BBC start to think that UKIP only hurt the Tories, perhaps they'll start promoting UKIP! :-)

  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    They keep touting The North as the great untapped UKIP vote reservoir. In May, we'll know.
  • Options
    Lennon said:

    So the story of the last 2 years is that Labour have gone absolutely nowhere - they have just benefited from the movement of voters that weren't going to vote Labour, and still aren't going to vote Labour. (On a net basis of course)

    Absolutely. Labour's vote share has been remarkably consistent in the polls since about June/July 2010. It is benefiting from a split right and the LDs being in coalition with the Tories. It seems reasonable to believe that about 35% of the voting population in England and Wales is left of centre and anti-Tory, and that because the LDs are now a no-no Labour is benefiting from that. More importantly, there is little sign of things changing right now. The Tories need an event.
  • Options
    Talking of candidates, have the Conservatives announced who will be standing in Eastleigh yet?
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited February 2014

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I thought this was going to be a 'Dave is Crap' thread? If you start promoting 'Ed is crap' too, you may convert some readers to UKIP.
  • Options

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I thought this was going to be a 'Dave is Crap' thread? If you start promoting 'Ed is crap' too, you may convert some readers to UKIP.
    It's a really bad slogan, inviting a third closing phrase. Like 'Designed by computer. Built by robots. Driven by morons'
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    isam said:

    Good to see a politician reclaiming words from the far right instead of being too scared to say what he believes for fear of lefty nonsense




    You have to admit, Farage is a breathe of fresh air compared with most (if not nearly all) politicans. He just speaks like a normal guy who says what he thinks..

    The problem is that Farage is inconsistent.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    I'd expect UKIP to perform very well in Havering. Not only is it natural territory, but the Romford Conservatives are a flaming shit sandwich. The "21 group" (which locals believe is a reference to their combined IQ) of Conservative activists have deselected a lot of councillors, several of whom have defected to UKIP.

    I think UKIP would also poll well in Barking & Dagenham, Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, and parts of Redbridge and Sutton, depending on where they field candidates.

    Outside London, I'd look to places like Great Yarmouth, Eastleigh, Tunbridge Wells, Thurrock, Harlow, Basildon, Plymouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Dudley, Calderdale, Adur as councils where could see UKIP make a breakthrough.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    edited February 2014

    MaxPB said:

    The economy recovering without a subsequent recovery in the poll ratings of the coalition parties is very easy to nail down.

    It is perceived that the current economic recovery benefits just a few people rather than the wider public. A stagnating minimum wage and low income wage growth coupled with a large reduction in corporation taxes and the reduction of the top tax rate to 45p has been devastating to the electoral prospects of both parties. Until they can show they are on the side of the working man by boosting the minimum wage and cutting taxes for small businesses and middle income earners they will not benefit from the current economic recovery. It is too concentrated in London and a few other urban areas.

    Right now, the polls are correct. The coalition is in power but rather than governing for the whole country, they are governing for the south of England and south of Wales only. The gains of the economic recovery need to be spread to other regions in the Midlands, North and Scotland. While the coalition parties do not have much to gain in these areas, in term of seats, the perception that they are in it to help everyone rather than just their own narrow set of supporters in the south will be enough to see their poll rating recover.

    In this part of the midlands (Leamington) things are going pretty well. House prices are up, restaurants are full, unemployment is low. It's a marginal that I'd expect the Tories to hold comfortably. However, go just a few miles further north towards Coventry, Nuneaton and North Warwickshire generally and it is a very different story.

    Therein lies the problem SO, the coalition are governing for their supporters rather than for everyone. Leamington, Stratford-on-Avon and Kenilworth are all pretty solid Tory majority seats. The seats in which they have less natural support is where the effects of the current economic recovery have yet to feed through. In affluent areas the economy is flourishing, I have no doubt about it. I just moved to West London, and the bars are packed, restaurants are full and it's standing room only in pubs on Fridays. Head into a less affluent parts of London and everything is pretty deserted. There is a basic split in the country between those who have and those who have not. Very little is being done by the government to give those who have not a leg up to compete because the education system is failing kids and the old boys network keeps deserving people out of top jobs.

    You know my views on it though, I think this is one of the areas in which we agree, both of us coming from very modest backgrounds and having attended grammar schools.
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The economy recovering without a subsequent recovery in the poll ratings of the coalition parties is very easy to nail down.

    It is perceived that the current economic recovery benefits just a few people rather than the wider public. A stagnating minimum wage and low income wage growth coupled with a large reduction in corporation taxes and the reduction of the top tax rate to 45p has been devastating to the electoral prospects of both parties. Until they can show they are on the side of the working man by boosting the minimum wage and cutting taxes for small businesses and middle income earners they will not benefit from the current economic recovery. It is too concentrated in London and a few other urban areas.

    Right now, the polls are correct. The coalition is in power but rather than governing for the whole country, they are governing for the south of England and south of Wales only. The gains of the economic recovery need to be spread to other regions in the Midlands, North and Scotland. While the coalition parties do not have much to gain in these areas, in term of seats, the perception that they are in it to help everyone rather than just their own narrow set of supporters in the south will be enough to see their poll rating recover.

    In this part of the midlands (Leamington) things are going pretty well. House prices are up, restaurants are full, unemployment is low. It's a marginal that I'd expect the Tories to hold comfortably. However, go just a few miles further north towards Coventry, Nuneaton and North Warwickshire generally and it is a very different story.

    Therein lies the problem SO, the coalition are governing for their supporters rather than for everyone. Leamington, Stratford-on-Avon and Kenilworth are all pretty solid Tory majority seats. The seats in which they have less natural support is where the effects of the current economic recovery have yet to feed through. In affluent areas the economy is flourishing, I have no doubt about it. I just moved to West London, and the bars are packed, restaurants are full and it's standing room only in pubs on Fridays. Head into a less affluent parts of London and everything is pretty deserted. There is a basic split in the country between those who have and those who have not. Very little is being done by the government to give those who have not a leg up to compete because the education system is failing kids and the old boys network keeps deserving people out of top jobs.

    You know my views on it though, I think this is one of the areas in which we agree, both of us coming from very modest backgrounds and having attended grammar schools.
    Make that three if us.
  • Options
    @MaxPB - I think it will take longer than a couple of years for Gove's reforms in education to show up in activity in bars and restaurants in less affluent areas!
  • Options
    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    The reasons why London is infertile territory are stark. It's a city run by immigrants, who do the jobs other people don't want. It's a very liberal sort of place. It's closer connected to the power bases of Europe (eg Paris, Frankfurt) than it is to the rest of Britain. Londoners know isolation from Europe would be dire for businesses. It's a Labour city with a good dose on soft right Cameroons. But Kippery it is never going to be.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I popped by to see what you were all saying about Next Deputy Leader betting etc and nada.

    The previous thread only mentions that you aren't talking about this subject as the story is *behind a paywall* - given it's only £1 to read the Sun's epic hatchet job and it's all over the Mail's website here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2569570/Patricia-Hewitt-breaks-silence-groups-links-National-Council-Civil-Liberties-boss.html that seems rather limp given the enormity of the crap storm Labour is experiencing.

    As for Mrs Hewitt - at least BT's PR people have told her to get her apology out pronto now she's been put in the frame. Mr and Mrs Harman would've been wise to do so before now. Too late me thinks.

    Hope you are all well. See you again sometime.

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2014

    Talking of candidates, have the Conservatives announced who will be standing in Eastleigh yet?

    Not yet. Mike Thornton is the only candidate at present.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Warwick and Leamington only requires a swing of 3.58% for Labour to gain. It's number 54 on their target list which means it is a must-win constituency for an overall majority.
  • Options
    On topic, interesting that for all Labour made the running with the Omnishambles budget, it's not benefitted them except indirectly, and that the net loss of Conservative support has gone to UKIP. Miliband simply isn't appealing to the centre, or right-of-centre - in either sense. It may be that he doesn't have to, if he can keep hold of the ex-Lib Dem voters. That, however, is still an 'if'.

    Off-topic, Cobol is a lovely, (mostly) straight-forward, logical language. It also (partly) keeps me in a job, so I am biased.
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I thought this was going to be a 'Dave is Crap' thread? If you start promoting 'Ed is crap' too, you may convert some readers to UKIP.
    It's a really bad slogan, inviting a third closing phrase. Like 'Designed by computer. Built by robots. Driven by morons'
    Perhaps they should have a public competition?

    'Dave is Crap. Ed is Crap. Vote UKIP!'
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2014
    AndyJS said:

    Talking of candidates, have the Conservatives announced who will be standing in Eastleigh yet?

    Not yet. Mike Thornton is the only candidate at present.
    Thanks, that's what I thought. It's very strange that the Conservatives haven't selected there yet, given that (on paper at least) it's a potentially winnable seat.
  • Options
    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited February 2014
    UKIPs conference venue partly funded by hated EU:

    http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/02/ukip-conference-building-received-3million-european-funding/

    Plus Torquay as a whole has benefitted from more EU funding.

    Funny.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    @MaxPB - I think it will take longer than a couple of years for Gove's reforms in education to show up in activity in bars and restaurants in less affluent areas!

    It's tertiary education I have issues with. The government should be funding degrees/scholarships in STEM subjects and increasing apprenticeships far more rapidly than they have. Also introducing new qualification requirements for semi-skilled jobs for new entrants to better protect young people from cheap imported labour.

    I don't care about this foolish idea that the government shouldn't try to pick winners because time and again the world has showed there will always be a requirement for STEM graduates. British companies are crying out for high quality graduates in these areas from the financial sector to computing, STEM graduates are in demand. By funding scholarships for the best and brightest the government could encourage people into these fields and ensure that we have a steady supply of well educated people to ensure long term prosperity.

    While the £9k fees have tipped the balance in favour of traditional subjects, I believe the equation needs to be adjusted further to support students who want to study in this specific area.
  • Options
    BenM said:

    UKIPs conference venue partly funded by hated EU:

    http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/02/ukip-conference-building-received-3million-european-funding/

    Plus Torquay as a whole has benefitted from more EU funding.

    Funny.

    And where did that EU funding come from?
  • Options
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Nice to see you on, Miss Plato.

    I expect UKIP to have a decent showing in this constituency. I'd be surprised if their votes were less than the margin of victory for Balls.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2014
    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    BobaFett said:

    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    The reasons why London is infertile territory are stark. It's a city run by immigrants, who do the jobs other people don't want. It's a very liberal sort of place. It's closer connected to the power bases of Europe (eg Paris, Frankfurt) than it is to the rest of Britain. Londoners know isolation from Europe would be dire for businesses. It's a Labour city with a good dose on soft right Cameroons. But Kippery it is never going to be.
    So UKIP only appeal to Bumpkins?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,002
    Sean_F said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    I'd expect UKIP to perform very well in Havering. Not only is it natural territory, but the Romford Conservatives are a flaming shit sandwich. The "21 group" (which locals believe is a reference to their combined IQ) of Conservative activists have deselected a lot of councillors, several of whom have defected to UKIP.

    I think UKIP would also poll well in Barking & Dagenham, Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, and parts of Redbridge and Sutton, depending on where they field candidates.

    Outside London, I'd look to places like Great Yarmouth, Eastleigh, Tunbridge Wells, Thurrock, Harlow, Basildon, Plymouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Dudley, Calderdale, Adur as councils where could see UKIP make a breakthrough.
    I live in Havering, in Upminster and the demographic is perfect for UKIP to do well I think.

    The sitting Conservative MP is Angela Watkinson, about as far right a Tory as you get nowadays. I wouldn't be amazed if she defected to UKIP... even discounting that, BNP & UKIP got almost 12% in 2010

    As I have said many times, Thurrock at 16/1 looks a great bet for 2015,and I would like to see the prices on Hornchurch and Upminster... any 33s and above would be worth a punt

    Havering is unlike almost any other London borough in terms of demographic, I think the percentage of non English speakers is 5% compared to the London average of 22% .There has been a storm brewing about our council merging with Newham, which is like twinning chalk with cheese, and if the Romford Tories are already defecting I would think UKIP could do fantastically in 2015 as well as this Mays locals

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:


    Therein lies the problem SO, the coalition are governing for their supporters rather than for everyone. Leamington, Stratford-on-Avon and Kenilworth are all pretty solid Tory majority seats. The seats in which they have less natural support is where the effects of the current economic recovery have yet to feed through. In affluent areas the economy is flourishing, I have no doubt about it. I just moved to West London, and the bars are packed, restaurants are full and it's standing room only in pubs on Fridays. Head into a less affluent parts of London and everything is pretty deserted. There is a basic split in the country between those who have and those who have not. Very little is being done by the government to give those who have not a leg up to compete because the education system is failing kids and the old boys network keeps deserving people out of top jobs.

    You know my views on it though, I think this is one of the areas in which we agree, both of us coming from very modest backgrounds and having attended grammar schools.

    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736

    AndyJS said:

    Talking of candidates, have the Conservatives announced who will be standing in Eastleigh yet?

    Not yet. Mike Thornton is the only candidate at present.
    Thanks, that's what I thought. It's very strange that the Conservatives haven't selected there yet, given that (on paper at least) it's a potentially winnable seat.
    Also odd that Diane James hasn't been confirmed as UKIP's candidate - I mean, is she planning on standing somewhere else that is more UKIP friendly? I guess waiting until the Locals / Europeans in May to see what the ground activity is like is a possible motive, but still...
  • Options
    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    BobaFett said:

    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    The reasons why London is infertile territory are stark. It's a city run by immigrants, who do the jobs other people don't want. It's a very liberal sort of place. It's closer connected to the power bases of Europe (eg Paris, Frankfurt) than it is to the rest of Britain. Londoners know isolation from Europe would be dire for businesses. It's a Labour city with a good dose on soft right Cameroons. But Kippery it is never going to be.
    So UKIP only appeal to Bumpkins?
    Not sure about their potential appeal in the big northern cities, but I certainly wouldn't be backing them here - except in far flung white enclaves of Gtr London like Havering.
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    I'd expect UKIP to perform very well in Havering. Not only is it natural territory, but the Romford Conservatives are a flaming shit sandwich. The "21 group" (which locals believe is a reference to their combined IQ) of Conservative activists have deselected a lot of councillors, several of whom have defected to UKIP.

    I think UKIP would also poll well in Barking & Dagenham, Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, and parts of Redbridge and Sutton, depending on where they field candidates.

    Outside London, I'd look to places like Great Yarmouth, Eastleigh, Tunbridge Wells, Thurrock, Harlow, Basildon, Plymouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Dudley, Calderdale, Adur as councils where could see UKIP make a breakthrough.
    I live in Havering, in Upminster and the demographic is perfect for UKIP to do well I think.

    The sitting Conservative MP is Angela Watkinson, about as far right a Tory as you get nowadays. I wouldn't be amazed if she defected to UKIP... even discounting that, BNP & UKIP got almost 12% in 2010

    As I have said many times, Thurrock at 16/1 looks a great bet for 2015,and I would like to see the prices on Hornchurch and Upminster... any 33s and above would be worth a punt

    Havering is unlike almost any other London borough in terms of demographic, I think the percentage of non English speakers is 5% compared to the London average of 22% .There has been a storm brewing about our council merging with Newham, which is like twinning chalk with cheese, and if the Romford Tories are already defecting I would think UKIP could do fantastically in 2015 as well as this Mays locals

    Don't feel you have to answer if you don't want to - but I know that in the past you mentioned you were considering standing for UKIP in the Locals - are you doing so?
  • Options
    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    I'd expect UKIP to perform very well in Havering. Not only is it natural territory, but the Romford Conservatives are a flaming shit sandwich. The "21 group" (which locals believe is a reference to their combined IQ) of Conservative activists have deselected a lot of councillors, several of whom have defected to UKIP.

    I think UKIP would also poll well in Barking & Dagenham, Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, and parts of Redbridge and Sutton, depending on where they field candidates.

    Outside London, I'd look to places like Great Yarmouth, Eastleigh, Tunbridge Wells, Thurrock, Harlow, Basildon, Plymouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Dudley, Calderdale, Adur as councils where could see UKIP make a breakthrough.
    I live in Havering, in Upminster and the demographic is perfect for UKIP to do well I think.

    The sitting Conservative MP is Angela Watkinson, about as far right a Tory as you get nowadays. I wouldn't be amazed if she defected to UKIP... even discounting that, BNP & UKIP got almost 12% in 2010

    As I have said many times, Thurrock at 16/1 looks a great bet for 2015,and I would like to see the prices on Hornchurch and Upminster... any 33s and above would be worth a punt

    Havering is unlike almost any other London borough in terms of demographic, I think the percentage of non English speakers is 5% compared to the London average of 22% .There has been a storm brewing about our council merging with Newham, which is like twinning chalk with cheese, and if the Romford Tories are already defecting I would think UKIP could do fantastically in 2015 as well as this Mays locals

    I don't think the Kippers will win a single seat at the GE, but am not confident enough to bet on it as yet.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,907
    We need to remember how hard it was for the Greens to win in Brighton. UKIP are nowhere near achieving the same concentration of support that the Greens required to win their first seat.
  • Options
    Mr. Jonathan, that's a good point. Against it is the significant and persistent polling UKIP has enjoyed. If they'd spent the last decade building up regional strength somewhere they'd have a great shot at multiple seats. Instead they went shallow and broad, and might yet manage to win no seats once more.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.

    Absolutely, the earlier help is available for kids the better. Languages, advanced maths and Latin should be on the agenda for any child that shows promise at the primary level. The dumbing down agenda that patronises children rather than challenges them needs to be taken out the the back and shot.
    Charles said:


    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.

    So you are saying an equally qualified black graduate from a council estate has the same chance of getting a job in a top law firm as a white one from the shires who's parents are well connected?

    Come off it Charles. The old boys network is alive and well.
  • Options

    Mr. Jonathan, that's a good point. Against it is the significant and persistent polling UKIP has enjoyed. If they'd spent the last decade building up regional strength somewhere they'd have a great shot at multiple seats. Instead they went shallow and broad, and might yet manage to win no seats once more.

    Indeed, though as I've said before, winning seats is only a means to an end and it may well be in UKIP's interests to win 10% of the vote and no seats rather than 5% and return a couple of MPs.
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Jonathan said:

    We need to remember how hard it was for the Greens to win in Brighton. UKIP are nowhere near achieving the same concentration of support that the Greens required to win their first seat.

    They won a majority of votes cast in several (Westminster) seats at last year's locals.

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
  • Options
    smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited February 2014
    I had thought it was possible given its now clear that Cameron's policies on the EU and Immigration are in tatters that there would be a considerable level of fractiousness on line but there isn't. Other than a considerable level of 'I told you so' from those who have doubted Cameron there's nothing.

    Now it may well be that people now just accept uncontrolled immigration and that we are tied to the EU forever more without recovering any sovereignty. However, I doubt it. I suspect its more likely that people have passed the point where Cameron's failures any longer evoke any passion and are just accepted as further examples of Cameron's fallability. In short Cameron's die is caste much as by 2009 so was Brown's

    Now if that's the case then the good news for the Tories is that the Tories probably won't lose too many more votes. The bad news is that they likely won't win many lost votes back either. Particularly because as we have seen in 2010 Cameron tends to be the type who is fast out of the blocks forcing a big lead in the back straight but begins to fade early on the final turn and definitely has no extra gear down the final straight.

  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.

    Absolutely, the earlier help is available for kids the better. Languages, advanced maths and Latin should be on the agenda for any child that shows promise at the primary level. The dumbing down agenda that patronises children rather than challenges them needs to be taken out the the back and shot.
    Charles said:


    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.

    So you are saying an equally qualified black graduate from a council estate has the same chance of getting a job in a top law firm as a white one from the shires who's parents are well connected?

    Come off it Charles. The old boys network is alive and well.
    Reverse discrimination could likely apply in the case you cite, but I'd guess the Magic Circle firms go for the best lawyers these days, not the best connected. There are plenty of wealthy and successful lawyers, who weren't born into privilege - I know a few. I'm sure Antifrank would have a beter idea.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    isam said:

    Good to see a politician reclaiming words from the far right instead of being too scared to say what he believes for fear of lefty nonsense


    "Farage closed on the rousing note that UKIP would "make patriotism as respectable idea once again". Earlier in the day he was cornered by the BBC, who asked him about the party's new slogan: "Love Britain, Vote UKIP", which the Guido Fawkes blog pointed out was strikingly similar to that of the extremist British National Party.

    Farage responded robustly, "The National Front use the Union Jack, we haven't burned them all have we? Come on... To hell with the BNP or anyone else... It's our slogan now. Love Britain, Vote UKIP. Not changing it. Keeping it forever. Keeping it until the day we exit the European Union, get back control over our borders, get back control of our country, and get back a sense of self respect of who we are as a nation""

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/02/28/Farage-speech-ukip-conference

    There's a wonderful line from a band @Richard_Tyndall and I like, regarding the Union Jack:

    "It's my flag too, and I want it back."
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I am sure that 100 or so years ago members of the Liberal party were saying the same about Labour.

    Isn't that a problem with your message, Mr. N., it promotes the status quo and says to certain voters that you must vote for a party that doesn't represent your views for fear that a party whose policies you will like even less will get power. Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless. Labour moved to a party of power because enough people were prepared to vote for something that they wanted regardless of warnings that it might split the vote.

    If the Conservatives want to achieve a majority again then they must start representing the views, morals and values of more than 40% of the voting population and show that they are competent to implement the policies that spring from those views whilst they are in government. Cameron, as leader of the party, has failed on both counts. Why should a working class small c conservative vote for Cameron?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.

    Absolutely, the earlier help is available for kids the better. Languages, advanced maths and Latin should be on the agenda for any child that shows promise at the primary level. The dumbing down agenda that patronises children rather than challenges them needs to be taken out the the back and shot.
    Charles said:


    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.

    So you are saying an equally qualified black graduate from a council estate has the same chance of getting a job in a top law firm as a white one from the shires who's parents are well connected?

    Come off it Charles. The old boys network is alive and well.
    No, I'm saying it is a network of the professional middle classes that matters, not a 'old boys network' depending on where you go to school.

    In any event, it only gets you an interview or a mini-pupillage (the latter, in particular, being very valuable) not a guaranteed job
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    MaxPB do you have a problem with people gaining employment through 'connections'?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2014
    The new UKIP slogan slightly reminds me of the posters that are all over Bangkok at the moment, which is: "Shut down Bangkok, Restart Thailand".
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "Farage promised that UKIP would address domestic issues after the May European elections, when it would also release a new manifesto which, unlike its predecessor, "doesn't resemble War And Peace."
    Until then, though, it would focus on immigration and the iniquitousness of Britain's relationship with the EU"

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/02/28/Farage-speech-ukip-conference

    I think a thin GE manifesto is the right choice. UKIP are not going to win a majority in 2015, so it's silly to pretend they will. A few key policies, and an indication of direction is all that's required.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2014

    Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless.

    No, that is profoundly wrong. Change is possible only from the starting position, and (under our electoral system) you have to build a sufficiently wide coalition to get general consent for the whole package of policies. It's about incrementally moving the country in a good direction - or, under Miliband, a bad one.

    Comparisons with Labour in the early part of the 20th century don't really stand up. Labour was based on a ready-made Trade Union movement, and had a clear agenda. UKIP should be seen more as like the Five Star Movement in Italy. It may rise in vote-share terms for a bit, and wreck good government in the short term, but it won't lead anywhere in the longer term because it is entirely incoherent. The one clear aim they have, namely getting an opportunity to leave the EU, they seem to be doing everything in their power to prevent happening.

    Incidentally, one curious dog that hasn't yet barked in the night is UKIP's very stong support for fracking. I rather think all those Tory shire voters tempted to vote UKIP haven't cottoned on to that policy yet. (As it happens, I think UKIP are right on that particular point, but it's electorally pretty toxic amongst a good chunk of their target voters).
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Talking of Angela Watkinson, Tory MP for Upminster, I saw her on the TV the other day and she looks about 20 years younger than she actually is, which is quite a feat, 52 vs 72.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.

    Absolutely, the earlier help is available for kids the better. Languages, advanced maths and Latin should be on the agenda for any child that shows promise at the primary level. The dumbing down agenda that patronises children rather than challenges them needs to be taken out the the back and shot.
    Charles said:


    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.

    So you are saying an equally qualified black graduate from a council estate has the same chance of getting a job in a top law firm as a white one from the shires who's parents are well connected?

    Come off it Charles. The old boys network is alive and well.
    There's truth in both arguments. Having a close relative who's a solicitor is enormously useful for getting into the profession. That could apply to a rich white person from the Shires, but could also apply to black or Asian person from London.

    But, there's no doubt having money helps a lot. These days, you need to repay a student loan, and pay stiff fees to go through Law School (although some firms cover these). Regulatory requirements and the cost of professional indemnity insurance make setting up your firm and enormous financial commitment.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I am sure that 100 or so years ago members of the Liberal party were saying the same about Labour.

    Isn't that a problem with your message, Mr. N., it promotes the status quo and says to certain voters that you must vote for a party that doesn't represent your views for fear that a party whose policies you will like even less will get power. Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless. Labour moved to a party of power because enough people were prepared to vote for something that they wanted regardless of warnings that it might split the vote.

    If the Conservatives want to achieve a majority again then they must start representing the views, morals and values of more than 40% of the voting population and show that they are competent to implement the policies that spring from those views whilst they are in government. Cameron, as leader of the party, has failed on both counts. Why should a working class small c conservative vote for Cameron?
    But that's a problem with UKIP: aside from getting out of Europe, what are its views? The mess over its 2010 manifesto shows that aside from Europe it has few beliefs as a party. Whilst all parties have to be broad churches to appeal, UKIP appears more like Miliband's blank sheet of paper. Or more accurately, a piece of paper that a five year-old has scribbled over during a sugar rush.

    I'd like to think of myself as the sort of person all parties want to attract, as I'm open to all of them. I passionately despise many in Labour at the moment, but find some of the party's aims and morals positive. I agree with the Lib Dems on many things, and the same with the Conservatives. If the right candidate came along, I could vote for any of them (although it would be harder to vote Labour due to the Miliband/Balls deficit and the ever-present loony left).

    Even if I came off my uncomfortable position on the fence on Europe and became a BOOer, I could not vote for UKIP. And that's sad, because I'd like to have them as a choice.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Talking of candidates, have the Conservatives announced who will be standing in Eastleigh yet?

    Not yet. Mike Thornton is the only candidate at present.
    Thanks, that's what I thought. It's very strange that the Conservatives haven't selected there yet, given that (on paper at least) it's a potentially winnable seat.
    The Tories are yet to select candidates in the following targets:

    Great Grimsby
    Birmingham Edgbaston
    Wakefield
    Gedling
    Walsall South
    Nottingham South
    Blackpool South
    Southampton Test

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dEk1TlVqMHhNUXFBWlhSNU1hd0FYSHc#gid=0
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    On the subject of the PIE, does anyone other than me remember this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Schoolbook

    And on the subject of paedophiles, how do people feel about the sentence in this case - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16536143
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    London is probably the second least UKIP-friendly part of the UK, ahead of only Scotland. Places with high concentrations of ethnic minorities are simply never going to vote for them (no matter how much shrieking the kippers do about how they're not racist), and even most white Londoners have a more metropolitan outlook so won't be very attracted to them. The only parts of London where UKIP might do decently are on the Essex/Kentish outskirts.

    Wales is more interesting to call for UKIP. On the one hand, they might suffer from a stereotype of being an English party, but on the other hand, Wales demographically does have a lot of UKIP-friendly demographics. Population is overwhelmingly dominated by white people, lots of seaside towns which have been heavily hammered in recent years by the decline in domestic tourism, people have a somewhat socially conservative outlook. Plus Labour is in a longterm decline in Wales (easy to forget that, rather than Scotland, it was always Wales that used to be considered their prime heartland, but I believe they got their worst result there since WW2 last time), while they're still pretty hostile to the Tories.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I watched Stanley Kubrick's 1962 film Lolita the other day, and it's very good indeed, especially Peter Sellers' performance. I guess a lot of people would hesitate a bit before viewing it these days because of the title.
  • Options
    smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited February 2014
    Jonathan said:

    We need to remember how hard it was for the Greens to win in Brighton. UKIP are nowhere near achieving the same concentration of support that the Greens required to win their first seat.

    And how do you come to that conclusion? In 2007 the last time Brighton Council was fought before 2010 the Greens won 20% vote share and in 2011 they achieved 33%.

    In the 2013 County Council elections UKIP exceeded 33% in 9 seats at least and exceeded the 20% the Greens achieved in 2007 in dozens of seats (and virtually every seat contested in Kent). To suggest that "UKIP are nowhere near achieving the same concentration of support that the Greens required to win their first seat" would seem to be wishful thinking......

    Of course thats not to say there are not other factors that will limit UKIPs opportunities but the 'concentration' of votes does not seem to be one of them.......

    http://survation.com/2013/05/ukip-won-in-8-westminster-constituencies-last-thursday/
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Any bets on how long Joanne Dennehy will be sentenced for? Surely she's a shoo-in for an all life tariff?

    I can't hep but thinking that her hideous crimes have not had quite enough attention, and her victims enough sympathy.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Unusual:

    "Former Labour council candidate David Christison filmed men urinating in Centrale shopping centre toilets

    A former council candidate filmed men urinating in Centrale shopping centre's toilets for sexual pleasure.

    David Christison, who stood for Labour in Waddon in 2010 election, secretly videoed and photographed men least 30 times between 2010 and last year.

    The 44-year-old, of Dunheved Road South, Thornton Heath, pleaded guilty to two counts of observing a person doing a private act at Croydon Magistrates' Court today."


    http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/11043111.Councillor_wannabe_filmed_men_urinating_in_shopping_centre_toilets/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    BobaFett said:

    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    The reasons why London is infertile territory are stark. It's a city run by immigrants, who do the jobs other people don't want. It's a very liberal sort of place. It's closer connected to the power bases of Europe (eg Paris, Frankfurt) than it is to the rest of Britain. Londoners know isolation from Europe would be dire for businesses. It's a Labour city with a good dose on soft right Cameroons. But Kippery it is never going to be.
    London's pretty atypical. It has lots of very rich people; lots of public sector workers; lots of immigrants, and a very large ethnic minority population. All groups that UKIP underperforms with.

    That said, UKIP should be able to do well enough with people who vote Conservative in the local elections to win two Euro seats in London.

  • Options
    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.
  • Options
    F1: good news, the stupid double points rule hasn't been extended to the last 3 races (sadly it will still apply in Abu Dhabi). In addition, there's no change to homologation:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/26387836
  • Options
    Mr. Observer, it has clear influence over numerous modern languages as well as being of use in medicine and science.

    I would've taken Latin, but unfortunately I had to choose that, classical civilisation or German. I would've preferred to take all of them, and drop French, but didn't have the choice.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2014

    Any bets on how long Joanne Dennehy will be sentenced for? Surely she's a shoo-in for an all life tariff?

    I can't hep but thinking that her hideous crimes have not had quite enough attention, and her victims enough sympathy.

    She spent most of the morning smirking in the dock apparently, and also insulted the judge at one point.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    I have a 'C' in GCSE Latin. The only languages I speak fluently are English and Python.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2014
    Joanne Dennehy gets a whole life tariff:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1219033/triple-killer-joanne-dennehy-in-jail-for-life

    Only the second woman to receive such a sentence, after Rose West.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Warwick and Leamington only requires a swing of 3.58% for Labour to gain. It's number 54 on their target list which means it is a must-win constituency for an overall majority.

    I'd expect to see an increased Tory majority. The one possible spanner in the works is that the election will be in university term time and a lot of Warwick University students live in Leamington.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of the PIE, does anyone other than me remember this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Red_Schoolbook

    And on the subject of paedophiles, how do people feel about the sentence in this case - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16536143

    It strikes me as wholly appropriate. It's not clear whether the boys were wearing the shoes or not - be that as it may, the poor blighter's clearly crossed the border from sexual fetish to mental illness.

    Perhaps we should criminalise the desire for vengeance. which seems to afflict more Peebies with each day that passes, as well?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    It should be learned in addition to a language. Latin is useful as it allows kids to form connections in their minds between English and other languages. It also teaches subjects often have common foundations and can broaden the level of thinking. That, at least, is what I got from it. Seeing something like English being linked to something as old as Latin helped me put into context how the world is linked together. Later on after I had given up Latin I have no doubt that it helped me make the link between economics, politics, history and such.

    I guess it's also one of those, "it didn't hurt in the past, so why stop", things. People may form a causal link between the decline in schooling in the nation and the lack of teaching of advanced subjects like Latin.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    AndyJS said:

    Joanne Dennehy gets a whole life tariff:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1219033/triple-killer-joanne-dennehy-in-jail-for-life

    Only the second woman to receive such a sentence, after Rose West.

    Myra Hindley
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    French for me - admittedly read it fluently (a newspaper or an academic paper) rather than speak (or write). Don't know if that counts ... but it was partly because I was made to do Greek rather than German once I had my exam qualification in French.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    Danny565 said:

    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    London is probably the second least UKIP-friendly part of the UK, ahead of only Scotland. Places with high concentrations of ethnic minorities are simply never going to vote for them (no matter how much shrieking the kippers do about how they're not racist), and even most white Londoners have a more metropolitan outlook so won't be very attracted to them. The only parts of London where UKIP might do decently are on the Essex/Kentish outskirts.

    Wales is more interesting to call for UKIP. On the one hand, they might suffer from a stereotype of being an English party, but on the other hand, Wales demographically does have a lot of UKIP-friendly demographics. Population is overwhelmingly dominated by white people, lots of seaside towns which have been heavily hammered in recent years by the decline in domestic tourism, people have a somewhat socially conservative outlook. Plus Labour is in a longterm decline in Wales (easy to forget that, rather than Scotland, it was always Wales that used to be considered their prime heartland, but I believe they got their worst result there since WW2 last time), while they're still pretty hostile to the Tories.
    UKIP won 11% in London in 2009, compared to 17% nationally. I think they'll be closer to 20% in the London Euros, this time, although they won't match that in the London Borough elections.

    The latest Welsh poll puts UKIP on 18% for the Euros.

  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    I don't get it either (and I am a professional classicist). A modern language is a much better springboard to other modern languages and I'd advise anyone wanting to do classics to do Arabic instead on the basis that it's just as interesting as Greek (and more interesting than Latin) and quite a lot more useful.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    @isam: "Love Britain. Vote UKIP. Get Miliband"

    I am sure that 100 or so years ago members of the Liberal party were saying the same about Labour.

    Isn't that a problem with your message, Mr. N., it promotes the status quo and says to certain voters that you must vote for a party that doesn't represent your views for fear that a party whose policies you will like even less will get power. Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless. Labour moved to a party of power because enough people were prepared to vote for something that they wanted regardless of warnings that it might split the vote.

    If the Conservatives want to achieve a majority again then they must start representing the views, morals and values of more than 40% of the voting population and show that they are competent to implement the policies that spring from those views whilst they are in government. Cameron, as leader of the party, has failed on both counts. Why should a working class small c conservative vote for Cameron?
    Quite so Mr Llama. Richard suggests that disaffected righties like you and myself will have to vote Cameron blue as our choice is between the lesser of two Evils.

    It doesn't occur to the Cameroons I might not want to vote Evil in the first place.
  • Options
    smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited February 2014
    @Josiahjessop

    But that's a problem with UKIP: aside from getting out of Europe, what are its views? The mess over its 2010 manifesto shows that aside from Europe it has few beliefs as a party. Whilst all parties have to be broad churches to appeal, UKIP appears more like Miliband's blank sheet of paper. Or more accurately, a piece of paper that a five year-old has scribbled over during a sugar rush.

    All that demonstrates is your inability to look at the UKIP site or listen to what Farage and other senior members of UKIP have been saying. You are just peddling the same disingenuous spin that Gordon Brown did about the Tories in 2007.

    http://www.ukip.org/issues/policy-pages/what-we-stand-for
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Warwick and Leamington only requires a swing of 3.58% for Labour to gain. It's number 54 on their target list which means it is a must-win constituency for an overall majority.

    I'd expect to see an increased Tory majority. The one possible spanner in the works is that the election will be in university term time and a lot of Warwick University students live in Leamington.

    Do you expect decent Tory results in similar types of seats like Worcester?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    Latin wasn't available at the comprehensive I attended in the 1990s.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068

    @Josiahjessop

    But that's a problem with UKIP: aside from getting out of Europe, what are its views? The mess over its 2010 manifesto shows that aside from Europe it has few beliefs as a party. Whilst all parties have to be broad churches to appeal, UKIP appears more like Miliband's blank sheet of paper. Or more accurately, a piece of paper that a five year-old has scribbled over during a sugar rush.

    All that demonstrates is your inability to look at the UKIP site or listen to what Farage and other senior members of UKIP have been saying. You are just peddling the same disingenuous spin that Gordon Brown did about the Tories in 2007.

    Well, Nigel Farage called the 2010 manifesto 'drivel', so you can forgive people like Josias for not being sure exactly what UKIP stands for, other than exit from the EU.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,002
    Lennon said:

    isam said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    I'd expect UKIP to perform very well in Havering. Not only is it natural territory, but the Romford Conservatives are a flaming shit sandwich. The "21 group" (which locals believe is a reference to their combined IQ) of Conservative activists have deselected a lot of councillors, several of whom have defected to UKIP.

    I think UKIP would also poll well in Barking & Dagenham, Bexley, Bromley, Hillingdon, and parts of Redbridge and Sutton, depending on where they field candidates.

    Outside London, I'd look to places like Great Yarmouth, Eastleigh, Tunbridge Wells, Thurrock, Harlow, Basildon, Plymouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Dudley, Calderdale, Adur as councils where could see UKIP make a breakthrough.
    I live in Havering, in Upminster and the demographic is perfect for UKIP to do well I think.

    The sitting Conservative MP is Angela Watkinson, about as far right a Tory as you get nowadays. I wouldn't be amazed if she defected to UKIP... even discounting that, BNP & UKIP got almost 12% in 2010

    As I have said many times, Thurrock at 16/1 looks a great bet for 2015,and I would like to see the prices on Hornchurch and Upminster... any 33s and above would be worth a punt

    Havering is unlike almost any other London borough in terms of demographic, I think the percentage of non English speakers is 5% compared to the London average of 22% .There has been a storm brewing about our council merging with Newham, which is like twinning chalk with cheese, and if the Romford Tories are already defecting I would think UKIP could do fantastically in 2015 as well as this Mays locals

    Don't feel you have to answer if you don't want to - but I know that in the past you mentioned you were considering standing for UKIP in the Locals - are you doing so?
    No problem! They send a letter to all members asking if they would like to, and I kind of would like to, but don't really want everything I have ever said and done, or my friends and family have said or done, raked through, so don't think Ill bother
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    "These are anxious and troubled times. As crisis has followed crisis, our politicians are doing nothing in the face of the dangers rearing up all around us.
    Violent crime erupts in our cities. "

    So; world not getting better, huh?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB do you have a problem with people gaining employment through 'connections'?

    Not so much that, but that certain positions in large British companies do require one to be part of the secret handshake club. I think introductions between friends or family are not really a big deal. It's the top level positions that draw from such a narrow pool of people I take issue with. Take a look at journalism, it draws from a very narrow background, mostly white public school educated people. It's tough to understand how that happens.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913
    AndyJS said:

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    Latin wasn't available at the comprehensive I attended in the 1990s.
    Thinking back, I think a big factor was that some universities (Oxford, certainly) required a Latin O-level as part of the admissions qualification, or similar, into the 1970s, if memory serves. I don't know when this was suspended, but it would have had its effect all the way back along the growth chain, certainly in the independent, private and grammar schools. This would not, I believe, apply as late as the 1990s. So perhaps Latin was an artefact of university entrance for some ... But I may be wrong ...

  • Options
    BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    Populus 38/33

    +1/+1
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited February 2014

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    I did Latin to GCSE.

    I do speak many languages, I grew up in a multi-lingual house, I spoke English, Urdu and Punjabi (and still do)

    Additionally, I can speak German and French very well, learned at school.

    I'm planning to learn to speak Portuguese and Spanish sometime soon.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    Warwick and Leamington only requires a swing of 3.58% for Labour to gain. It's number 54 on their target list which means it is a must-win constituency for an overall majority.

    I'd expect to see an increased Tory majority. The one possible spanner in the works is that the election will be in university term time and a lot of Warwick University students live in Leamington.

    Do you expect decent Tory results in similar types of seats like Worcester?

    I don't know then well enough, but my sense is that the West Midlands south of Brum/Coventry is doing OK. Moving east and north, though, and it changes pretty swiftly.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,290
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless.

    Incidentally, one curious dog that hasn't yet barked in the night is UKIP's very stong support for fracking. I rather think all those Tory shire voters tempted to vote UKIP haven't cottoned on to that policy yet. (As it happens, I think UKIP are right on that particular point, but it's electorally pretty toxic amongst a good chunk of their target voters).
    Roger Helmer devoted the majority of his speech at the last UKIP conference to assuaging public concerns about fracking.

    http://youtu.be/mJx_TAZuYec

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/the-five-myths-about-fracking-(1).aspx
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB do you have a problem with people gaining employment through 'connections'?

    Not so much that, but that certain positions in large British companies do require one to be part of the secret handshake club. I think introductions between friends or family are not really a big deal. It's the top level positions that draw from such a narrow pool of people I take issue with. Take a look at journalism, it draws from a very narrow background, mostly white public school educated people. It's tough to understand how that happens.
    How is 'the secret handshake club' (if such a thing exists) any different from friends and family connections?


  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Out of interest, how many posters on here who learned Latin to O/A/GCSE level at school speak a foreign language fluently?

    I don't actually get this obsession with Latin. In a day that is already very full, why teach kids a dead language when you can teach them one that they actually have a chance of using? Obviously, if there is evidence that it is a springboard to multi-lingualism then that's great. But is there? Miriam Clegg said recently that she rarely met public school educated men who speak foreign languages, but presumably most of them must have done Latin.

    Latin wasn't available at the comprehensive I attended in the 1990s.
    Exactly. Why bother wasting time on Latin? I only ever see Latin on here! It'd be far more beneficial to get young 'uns started on various Chinese or Indian languages/dialects, given where business is headed.

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,002
    Sean_F said:

    BobaFett said:

    Lennon said:

    "Ukip have 2500 candidates standing in local elections, says Farage."

    twitter.com/JasonFarrellSky/status/439374209513701376

    Where UKIP win the locals is going to be interesting. Will they reveal any Labour-held target seats for UKIP?

    Personally I think that it will be very interesting to see how they do in London - in what is traditionally not a good place for them - to see how broad or not their attraction is. (And actually, if they do badly in London then that is good for them, as it means that their potential votes are more concentrated then perhaps is assumed)
    The reasons why London is infertile territory are stark. It's a city run by immigrants, who do the jobs other people don't want. It's a very liberal sort of place. It's closer connected to the power bases of Europe (eg Paris, Frankfurt) than it is to the rest of Britain. Londoners know isolation from Europe would be dire for businesses. It's a Labour city with a good dose on soft right Cameroons. But Kippery it is never going to be.
    London's pretty atypical. It has lots of very rich people; lots of public sector workers; lots of immigrants, and a very large ethnic minority population. All groups that UKIP underperforms with.

    That said, UKIP should be able to do well enough with people who vote Conservative in the local elections to win two Euro seats in London.

    The doughnut effect that gets Boris in as London Mayor will be the most UKIP friendly areas.. .areas where people whose Grandparents were Londoners now live, as opposed to transient inner london
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB - I agree that more should be done, but I think you're being unfair. The government's doing a lot of the right things on education. The biggest problem is that it's a bit late by the time you get to entrance to university - you need to help kids from less privileged backgrounds much earlier than that.

    Absolutely, the earlier help is available for kids the better. Languages, advanced maths and Latin should be on the agenda for any child that shows promise at the primary level. The dumbing down agenda that patronises children rather than challenges them needs to be taken out the the back and shot.
    Charles said:


    Which is why gove is trying to reform schools....

    And it's not an old boys network anymore - it's a return to being a guild based system.

    If you want to be a lawyer, for instance, it will be far more useful to know antifrank, cyclefree or Sean-F than it would be to know me.

    So you are saying an equally qualified black graduate from a council estate has the same chance of getting a job in a top law firm as a white one from the shires who's parents are well connected?

    Come off it Charles. The old boys network is alive and well.
    Nowadays the biggest barrier to a kid from a council estate becoming a lawyer is the gang culture that doesn't officially exist.

    They'd have to get past that first before the old boy network became a problem.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,290

    Once that idea becomes accepted no change is possible and democracy becomes meaningless.

    Incidentally, one curious dog that hasn't yet barked in the night is UKIP's very stong support for fracking. I rather think all those Tory shire voters tempted to vote UKIP haven't cottoned on to that policy yet. (As it happens, I think UKIP are right on that particular point, but it's electorally pretty toxic amongst a good chunk of their target voters).
    Roger Helmer devoted the majority of his speech at the last UKIP conference to assuaging public concerns about fracking.

    http://youtu.be/mJx_TAZuYec

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/the-five-myths-about-fracking-(1).aspx
    I wondered it was Paul Flowers..
  • Options
    Addendum, I would abolish teaching German in this country, on all my trips to Germany, even when I spoke German, everyone in the country replied in perfect English.

    There's no point learning German, all the Germans can speak English already.

    (Though they are very appreciative of English people that have taken the time to learn German)
This discussion has been closed.