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Sunak and stopping the boats – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Leon said:

    Truman said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    This is total nonsense. The ordinary british people have no say in how high immigration is.
    Only in the sense that they have no direct say in anything as we live in a representative democracy. The government decides immigration policy and people have the opportunity to vote for parties with draconian immigration policies and mostly choose not to.
    No, this is a lie

    As @williamglenn notes, we consistently vote for parties that promise to "sort out" and reduce immigration, and then they never do. They lie. It is fucking outrageous and it is storing up grave trouble, the same way the endless lies about the EEC and the EU and Maastricht and Lisbon and "referendums, this time, I promise" let to the fatal rupture of Brexit

    In the end and if this continues, the Brits will vote for the far right - like every other European nation (and the USA)
    Well if you don't believe them vote for someone else. Why you would believe a word a Tory politician says on any subject is beyond me, anyway.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    ..

    Ghedebrav said:

    Rory and Alastair rank post-war Prime Ministers on The Rest is Politics (for five minutes)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzxKFyJoze8&t=680s

    I appalled myself recently when I realised that it is quite possible that the second best PM since Blair may well be Boris.

    He did less damage (somehow) than Cameron*, and certainly was better (somehow) than Truss or Sunak. I’m just not sure where to rank him round May or Brown - difficult as I feel like the latter two are people I feel personally warmer to, whereas Spaffer revolts me.


    *Cameron I see as the worst PM in my lifetime, just ahead of Thatcher and Liz ‘History’s Most Expensive Asterisk’ Truss.
    I just don't see Johnson anywhere except at the bottom of the heap. I don't like Cameron, however like Blair he is characterised by starkly misjudged foreign policy, but beyond that there was competence and levity. Johnson was punctuated by such a series of egregious scandals, but more than that his time in office was all about being seen through smoke and mirrors, claiming world beating competence out of his incompetence; "I got all the big calls right" (did you, bollocks!).

    However Johnson's malignancy is best borne out by the culture he brought with him and stamped on the Party and the Country. His legacy is a damaged party and "broken Britain".
    David Cameron is the Conservative Prime Minister from central casting. Smooth, personable, even handsome in a certain light; Eton and Oxford; socially liberal. You could imagine him played by Hugh Grant in a hit romcom.

    Leaving foreign policy to one side, Cameron's shadow cabinet spent five years preparing for government, yet gave us a health policy (Lansley's reforms) that was disowned and reversed by Cameron, a social policy, Universal Credit, whose introduction was a shambles, and which was undermined by the Chancellor, an economic policy that killed the recovery inherited from Labour and destroyed any prospect of growth, and that left debt at record levels. Local government was starved of funds. Traditional Tory values were thrown to the wolves as police and defence were cut.

    Cameron was also bad at retail politics, at which he was supposed to shine. His relentlessly negative campaign style converted healthy leads over Labour into a hung parliament, almost lost Scotland and did lose Europe. (And before anyone points to 2015, that Conservative victory was due to the SNP driving Labour out of Scotland, not Cameron.)

    Worst of all is Cameron's gerrymandering, tampering with the electoral system for partisan advantage. Ironically, it would probably cause Brexit and the end of Cameron's ministry.

    David Cameron was our worst prime minister since Lord North.
    All valid points, but when one looks at the gravitas of Cameron on the World stage today compared to the bumbling embarrassment that was Johnson and the barely sane nincompoop that is Truss, he ascends the list.
    "... bumbling embarrassment that was Johnson"

    When it comes to world events, Johnson did excellently on Ukraine. Incidentally, so did May, over Salisbury.
    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    My view, and it is my own cynical opinion piece, is Johnson got Ukraine right because it was the last chance saloon for saving his skin. I suppose whatever the justification, the call was correct. Nonetheless now the party is over his visits to Kyiv are less frequent, and what was he doing meeting Madura last month?

    The appeal of Ukraine to Johnson and other tories was the chance to bask in the reflected glow of a war without any politically inconvenient British Gruz 200s landing back at Brize. All it cost Johson was other people's money which, as we all know, is his preferred type of money.

    For a bit there, when the Russians discovered they couldn't do US-style high mobility, combined arms offensives, it was all very exciting for the tories. Now that the Ukrainians have also discovered that they can't do US-style high mobility, combined arms offensives, it's all gone a bit boring and the UK government is losing interest.
    That seems to be the military lesson of the war. Offensive combined operations require a level of training, equipment supply and airpower not sustainable for anyone other than the US military. That said the Russians were successful initially, albeit followed by massive retreats and defeats too. The battle experience of their troops in warfare recognisable to my Grandfather on the Somme may be of little use in other wars.
    Both sides are trying to wear each other out in the hope the other gives up. Neither has any intention of giving up. In that respect the situation is like WW1.

    The choice for the West at this time, I think, is to do nothing and allow the Russians slowly to grind its way to Kyiv destroying everything in its path or to support Ukraine at scale to keep Russia at bay. I know which option I would choose.

    In any case Germany was ultimately defeated in 1918, as it needed to be.
    A very different version of WWI.

    Ukraine's Sergyi Flesh: "Mark my words - in six months to a year, both sides will begin to produce enough FPVs to target every single soldier - all will be detected and destroyed day and night in a zone of up to 5-8 km. All infantry will retreat underground, and all surface activity will belong to ground robots."
    https://twitter.com/sambendett/status/1768732323367821657

    Many more FPV drones are already used to target soldiers than vehicles.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Variety
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582

    Leon said:

    Truman said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    This is total nonsense. The ordinary british people have no say in how high immigration is.
    Only in the sense that they have no direct say in anything as we live in a representative democracy. The government decides immigration policy and people have the opportunity to vote for parties with draconian immigration policies and mostly choose not to.
    No, this is a lie

    As @williamglenn notes, we consistently vote for parties that promise to "sort out" and reduce immigration, and then they never do. They lie. It is fucking outrageous and it is storing up grave trouble, the same way the endless lies about the EEC and the EU and Maastricht and Lisbon and "referendums, this time, I promise" let to the fatal rupture of Brexit

    In the end and if this continues, the Brits will vote for the far right - like every other European nation (and the USA)
    Well if you don't believe them vote for someone else. Why you would believe a word a Tory politician says on any subject is beyond me, anyway.
    Because, like most decent Brits, I don't actually like extremists. I don't want to be on the same side as Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson, or anywhere near it

    I just wnt one of the big democratic parties to DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO on immigration, rather than this perpetual discourse of lies. But if they keep lying, then I guess I will HAVE to vote for some horrible fascist party, WHICH I FIERCELY DON'T WANT TO DO

    What we need is Farage to take over Reform, fuck the Tories, get a proper right wing Tory party, or RefTory party, a party that will actually keep its promises: on this and so much else
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,468

    Truman said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    Doesn't Instagram still exist?

    On a completely unrelated note, have you heard of narcissistic personality disorder?
    Yes you’re right. Thanks for asking

    For the last 3 months solid (2 brief Feb days in
    London excepted) I’ve woken up to warm dry tropical sun. In Thailand, Cambodia or Colombia. Even when it’s too hot the mornings are always lovely - and yes you’re right, I get up and stroll naked into the morning sun on the balcony

    That is how humans are meant to wake and rise. Your spirits lift at once: the world is kind. The coffee charges the brain, and off you go

    London next week is going to be a horrible shock
    Without that bitter and damp chill to compare it to, would you be able to enjoy that tropical sun quite so much?
    The sun is shining in Yorkshire today. This is spring. It lifts the spirits. No need for a tropical miasma.
    Have you seen the forecast for the next 2 weeks. Not good
    Indeed. Still below zero most nights over there in Moscow.
    Ukraine's helping by creating lots of fires to keep the refineries warm, at least... ;)

    Rumours three more hit overnight... 10% of Russia's refinery capacity.

    https://twitter.com/tvtoront/status/1768994926740603040
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    Come on Wales!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    Leon said:

    Briefly back to my Boeing Theory from last night

    A claim that Boeing are just unlucky. There aren’t any more incidents than normal - they’re simply getting more coverage

    https://x.com/pitdesi/status/1768781038229377425?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Others disagree. Slippery stats

    I stand by my theorem, we may be seeing some Chinese sabotage added to Boeing’s real long-seated problems. The sabotage might be as basic as manipulating social media to worsen Boeing’s plight - so easy to do. Or there is some genuine physical/software sabotage

    Remember that this is happening exactly at the moment China is trying to break into the Airbus/Boeing duopoly


    https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3249765/chinas-c919-maker-has-sky-high-ambitions-grab-piece-aviation-pie-boeing-airbus-domestic-demand-soars

    And a month after US intel warned of Chinese sabotage of US planes, inter alia

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/08/chinese-hack-us-transportation-infrastructure

    And Xi or Putin DEFFO offed that Boeing whistleblower

    Boeing’s problems are a direct result of the management by generalist, outsourcing and mandated cost cutting culture that Boeing has implemented for decades.

    They were warned, repeatedly, over decades, what was going to happen.

    Instead they carried on adding bullshit into their processes, while remove actual record keeping, quality and safety.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Truman said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    This is total nonsense. The ordinary british people have no say in how high immigration is.
    Only in the sense that they have no direct say in anything as we live in a representative democracy. The government decides immigration policy and people have the opportunity to vote for parties with draconian immigration policies and mostly choose not to.
    No, this is a lie

    As @williamglenn notes, we consistently vote for parties that promise to "sort out" and reduce immigration, and then they never do. They lie. It is fucking outrageous and it is storing up grave trouble, the same way the endless lies about the EEC and the EU and Maastricht and Lisbon and "referendums, this time, I promise" let to the fatal rupture of Brexit

    In the end and if this continues, the Brits will vote for the far right - like every other European nation (and the USA)
    Well if you don't believe them vote for someone else. Why you would believe a word a Tory politician says on any subject is beyond me, anyway.
    Because, like most decent Brits, I don't actually like extremists. I don't want to be on the same side as Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson, or anywhere near it

    I just wnt one of the big democratic parties to DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO on immigration, rather than this perpetual discourse of lies. But if they keep lying, then I guess I will HAVE to vote for some horrible fascist party, WHICH I FIERCELY DON'T WANT TO DO

    What we need is Farage to take over Reform, fuck the Tories, get a proper right wing Tory party, or RefTory party, a party that will actually keep its promises: on this and so much else
    Why don't you want to vote for a fascist party when you support their policies and world view?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    edited March 16

    ydoethur said:

    Vaughan Gething wins by 51.7-48.3

    First black leader of a European country/province, apparently.

    First non-Welsh speaking FM.

    I think Welsh Labour have made the, er, 'courageous' choice. He was the Humza Yousaf (as defined by Kate Forbes) of that contest.

    18,000 Welsh Labour (including trade Union) members - turnout of about 57%. So around 10,000 people picked him.

    I suspect he will quickly unravel over the £200,000 donation. It may well be all above board, I suspect it is. Nonetheless the optics look terrible.

    Miles isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but he has less baggage.

    Welsh Labour can just thank the Lord for Andrew R T Davies.
    I know nothing about Gething, and I'm none the wiser having read Wiki. What's his politics - is he a proper leftie like Drakeford? Is he likely to cause Starmer any political problems?
    No, he would dovetail nicely into Starmer Labour, athough Gething's record is very patchy in terms of competence. The donation I suspect will become a problem, if you research the company making the donation and the history it has with both Natural Resources Wales and the HSE, Gething would be wise to return the money. Not because of any corruption, but because the whole story looks wrong when Labour are trying to demonstrate they aren't Johnsonian Tories.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Truman said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    This is total nonsense. The ordinary british people have no say in how high immigration is.
    Only in the sense that they have no direct say in anything as we live in a representative democracy. The government decides immigration policy and people have the opportunity to vote for parties with draconian immigration policies and mostly choose not to.
    No, this is a lie

    As @williamglenn notes, we consistently vote for parties that promise to "sort out" and reduce immigration, and then they never do. They lie. It is fucking outrageous and it is storing up grave trouble, the same way the endless lies about the EEC and the EU and Maastricht and Lisbon and "referendums, this time, I promise" let to the fatal rupture of Brexit

    In the end and if this continues, the Brits will vote for the far right - like every other European nation (and the USA)
    Well if you don't believe them vote for someone else. Why you would believe a word a Tory politician says on any subject is beyond me, anyway.
    Because, like most decent Brits, I don't actually like extremists. I don't want to be on the same side as Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson, or anywhere near it

    I just wnt one of the big democratic parties to DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO on immigration, rather than this perpetual discourse of lies. But if they keep lying, then I guess I will HAVE to vote for some horrible fascist party, WHICH I FIERCELY DON'T WANT TO DO

    What we need is Farage to take over Reform, fuck the Tories, get a proper right wing Tory party, or RefTory party, a party that will actually keep its promises: on this and so much else
    Why don't you want to vote for a fascist party when you support their policies and world view?
    Because I don’t. Tsk
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,701
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    How Covid made us more stupid: even mild infection ‘leads to fall in IQ’
    A large-scale study suggests the virus may have affected the intelligence of millions of people

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-covid-made-the-world-stupider-5qvz6sbhj (£££)

    Not just more stupid either. Damage to the frontal lobe affects impulse control, reduces empathy, increases aggression, affects forward planning etc.

    Just what the world needs.
    I still have not had Covid.

    Just saying.

    Thanks for the header @Topping.

    Off to my new allotment to pull out a lot of stinging nettles. There are worse ways to spend a Saturday.
    You must be like one of the WW1 soldiers who fought in the trenches throughout but never got hit.

    Fiendishly lucky.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    I just want to say like any patriotic Brit I am staying at home on this inclement late winter day to cheer on Wales


  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,179
    Well played Coventry.

    A bit Special.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    edited March 16
    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    Given the high numbers for Reform, it seems we are doing just that.
    Oh yes. Not that I've seen the Reform platform.

    As I note in the header, we finally really wanted to Brexit so we Brexited.

    But to date not so much.
    Header?

    [rushes off to read header]
    Have now read header. Top-tastic young @Topping. 😃

    [sorry, had shitty night last night and couldnae sleep. Hence lack of focus]
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,179
    edited March 16
    In the rugby union, two poor sides, one red, the other blue.

    A metaphor for British politics?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    In the rugby union, two poor sides, one red, the other blue.

    A metaphor for British politics?

    The Green team (SNP) however have been excellent save for last Saturday's result. That isn't borne out by the politics.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    That's fair to say for the majority, but I think there's a large minority very unhappy with that decision, and that minority is probably a majority of Leave voters.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Gething is no Mark Drakeford

    RIP Socialism in Wales apart from Plaid Cymru of course
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Truman said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    This is total nonsense. The ordinary british people have no say in how high immigration is.
    Only in the sense that they have no direct say in anything as we live in a representative democracy. The government decides immigration policy and people have the opportunity to vote for parties with draconian immigration policies and mostly choose not to.
    No, this is a lie

    As @williamglenn notes, we consistently vote for parties that promise to "sort out" and reduce immigration, and then they never do. They lie. It is fucking outrageous and it is storing up grave trouble, the same way the endless lies about the EEC and the EU and Maastricht and Lisbon and "referendums, this time, I promise" let to the fatal rupture of Brexit

    In the end and if this continues, the Brits will vote for the far right - like every other European nation (and the USA)
    Well if you don't believe them vote for someone else. Why you would believe a word a Tory politician says on any subject is beyond me, anyway.
    Because, like most decent Brits, I don't actually like extremists. I don't want to be on the same side as Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson, or anywhere near it

    I just wnt one of the big democratic parties to DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO on immigration, rather than this perpetual discourse of lies. But if they keep lying, then I guess I will HAVE to vote for some horrible fascist party, WHICH I FIERCELY DON'T WANT TO DO

    What we need is Farage to take over Reform, fuck the Tories, get a proper right wing Tory party, or RefTory party, a party that will actually keep its promises: on this and so much else
    Why don't you want to vote for a fascist party when you support their policies and world view?
    It’s a variant of that conversation at the end of a dinner party, when the cocaine is in and the wit is out, when some boor announces “Don’t get me wrong. But….”
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have a left leaning friend who spent some time working for the Tories in Cardiff Bay. Unsurprisingly it didn't work out but the reason she was prepared to do it was the desperate need for opposition in the place. Whether or not they can go it alone there is little chance of Labour being kicked out of office any time soon.

    If they need a coalition you can be sure that the minor party will get a hammering and we'll be back to Labour majority rule. Rinse and repeat.

    Devolution has been a disaster for Wales and Scotland: discuss

    I think it has. Well done new Labour
    I assume that is meant as a sarcastic remark about new Labour?

    Although knowing you perhaps it is sincere. What with this being the final weekend of the 6 nations are you drinking to the celts misery?
    I’m Cornish! And patriotically British

    But have a funny way of showing it.

    It’s striking how people who live or spend most of their time away from the country claim an excess of patriotism, as if they feel a need to compensate for something they are missing.
    I spent my first two decades in the UK, apart from a few continental holidays

    Since then I have always lived - been based - in England, mainly in London, with a couple of years in Cornwall, and that was the case for another three and a half decades

    The only occasions I have lived abroad in that time have been a few months in Thailand and a few months in Japan, and 2 months in Egypt (does that even count as "living abroad"?)

    Yes I travelled a lot but I always came back home. It's only in the last two years I have spent more than half the year outside the UK

    So in total I've done at least 55 years of living in the UK. and it is still my base, the only place I own property, it's where most of my family lives, many of my friends, my older daughter grows up there, and so on and so forth. Other than that, good point

    However I might well be fucking off now, Britain is too depressing
    Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Woke,
    If you think we're on the run?
    We are the boys who will stop your little game.
    We are the boys who will make you think again.
    'Cause who do you think you are kidding Mr. Woke,
    If you think old England's done?

    However I might well be fucking off now, Britain is too depressing
    I paid my dues to Blighty, and also millions in taxes. I am probably paying your state pension. You can thank me later
    What fat feeble twat "flagged" this mild joke? Such pitiful snowflakes you are
    'twould be a misuse of the flag button, but snowflakes can be eclipsed by people overreacting to snowflakes, so be careful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    Oooh dear. Wales. Wooden spoon I fear
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    I just love this table. -3!

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,179
    Humza Yousaf reckons the GE is a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories.

    He mustn't have seen the polling that predicts he'll lose half his seats to Labour.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,155
    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    I would agree that successive governments could be said to like high immigration. I don't think it's quite so fair to say that of the electorate, because I don't really think any of the parties have seriously attempted to have that conversation about priorities with them, instead opting to give the impression that we can have our cake and eat it too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    How Covid made us more stupid: even mild infection ‘leads to fall in IQ’
    A large-scale study suggests the virus may have affected the intelligence of millions of people

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-covid-made-the-world-stupider-5qvz6sbhj (£££)

    Not just more stupid either. Damage to the frontal lobe affects impulse control, reduces empathy, increases aggression, affects forward planning etc.

    Just what the world needs.
    I still have not had Covid.

    Just saying.

    Thanks for the header @Topping.

    Off to my new allotment to pull out a lot of stinging nettles. There are worse ways to spend a Saturday.
    You must be like one of the WW1 soldiers who fought in the trenches throughout but never got hit.

    Fiendishly lucky.
    I’ve never actually tested positive for Covid. Even when I am 99.999% sure I had it (lost sense of smell and taste for a few days: such a unique bizarre and unpleasant symptom)

    Probably had it twice or even thrice

    But the tests are not infallible
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,179

    Gething is no Mark Drakeford

    RIP Socialism in Wales apart from Plaid Cymru of course

    They seem to have forgotten how to play rugby too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341

    Donkeys said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    You say you value the precise use of English. You need to find out what "dawn" means. It doesn't mean the same as sunrise.
    Is that the Tyne Bridge? Are you in the Gateshead Travelodge?
    Nah. Leon is in Middlesbrough. Looks like a transporter bridge, even.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578

    Humza Yousaf reckons the GE is a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories.

    He mustn't have seen the polling that predicts he'll lose half his seats to Labour.

    Political framing like that is just insulting to one's own suppoters to think they will buy that. To a degree all parties do it, but there's a fine line between bluster and bullshit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    edited March 16
    pm215 said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    I would agree that successive governments could be said to like high immigration. I don't think it's quite so fair to say that of the electorate, because I don't really think any of the parties have seriously attempted to have that conversation about priorities with them, instead opting to give the impression that we can have our cake and eat it too.
    I would absolutely have more respect for a party that said Yes we need high immigration, deal with it. And this is how we are going to adjust for it with infrastructure and public services etc

    I might even vote for the noble honesty of it

    Instead they all lie
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,468
    Carnyx said:

    Donkeys said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    You say you value the precise use of English. You need to find out what "dawn" means. It doesn't mean the same as sunrise.
    Is that the Tyne Bridge? Are you in the Gateshead Travelodge?
    Nah. Leon is in Middlesbrough. Looks like a transporter bridge, even.
    Container cranes. He's in Felixstowe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    Carnyx said:

    Donkeys said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    You say you value the precise use of English. You need to find out what "dawn" means. It doesn't mean the same as sunrise.
    Is that the Tyne Bridge? Are you in the Gateshead Travelodge?
    Nah. Leon is in Middlesbrough. Looks like a transporter bridge, even.
    As I was saying to @Donkeys i am in a pretty mid range Colombian city. Certainly not a chic/touristy Cartagena

    It’s a busy port with few tourists and the death place of simon bolivar. Remarkable location between jungle sea desert and Andes

    Not far from troubled Venezuela. I recommend it. Santa Marta
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    pm215 said:

    TOPPING said:

    pm215 said:

    On topic, I don't think I agree with "Well, it appears that as a nation we like high immigration". I think it more likely that collectively we want multiple conflicting things: both lower immigration and less rapid cultural change, and also the economy to keep on motoring, driven by a supply of cheap labour. For political parties it appears to be easier to either try to keep one of the contradictory issues low salience or else make a performance of Doing Something which doesn't actually affect much, rather than try to persuade people about the consequences of what they want.

    Life is about allocation of scarce resource and prioritisation. We like high immigration in the sense that other things are more important. If we really didn't like it we'd put a stop to it.
    I would agree that successive governments could be said to like high immigration. I don't think it's quite so fair to say that of the electorate, because I don't really think any of the parties have seriously attempted to have that conversation about priorities with them, instead opting to give the impression that we can have our cake and eat it too.
    I would say, not so much they liked high immigration, but that they found it easier not to change the situation.

    Changing from a high immigration economy to a low immigration economy would mean very large dislocations and costs. And the politicians responsible would get a lot of stick at fashionable dinner parties.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    kle4 said:

    Humza Yousaf reckons the GE is a straight fight between the SNP and the Tories.

    He mustn't have seen the polling that predicts he'll lose half his seats to Labour.

    Political framing like that is just insulting to one's own suppoters to think they will buy that. To a degree all parties do it, but there's a fine line between bluster and bullshit.
    Unless it’s like the Redgrave/Pinsent era of rowing - “Those guys are going to win by a mile. We are competing for second against those guys.”
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    This might be the worst Welsh team in a decade
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Carnyx said:

    Donkeys said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    You say you value the precise use of English. You need to find out what "dawn" means. It doesn't mean the same as sunrise.
    Is that the Tyne Bridge? Are you in the Gateshead Travelodge?
    Nah. Leon is in Middlesbrough. Looks like a transporter bridge, even.
    I am fairly sure no matter what AI has done to him he looks nothing like a transporter bridge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    edited March 16
    So Wales, Scotland and the UK are all now led by non white men and NI is led by a white woman.

    It would therefore take a Starmer general election win for a white man to be in a leadership position again in the UK and devolved nations
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,615
    edited March 16
    Leon said:

    This might be the worst Welsh team in a decade

    I have no confidence Gethin will be any better than Drakeford to be honest and Drakeford said yesterday in trying to justify Wales NHS appalling wait times (my 2 visits were 15 hours and 8 hours) claimed 70% attendees were drunk

    That is simply untrue and the suffering I witnessed was nothing to do with anyone being drunk, but just inability to deal with the demand
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Truman said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Morning. A grey pre-dawn light over Bolivar’s City of Death


    Doesn't Instagram still exist?

    On a completely unrelated note, have you heard of narcissistic personality disorder?
    Yes you’re right. Thanks for asking

    For the last 3 months solid (2 brief Feb days in
    London excepted) I’ve woken up to warm dry tropical sun. In Thailand, Cambodia or Colombia. Even when it’s too hot the mornings are always lovely - and yes you’re right, I get up and stroll naked into the morning sun on the balcony

    That is how humans are meant to wake and rise. Your spirits lift at once: the world is kind. The coffee charges the brain, and off you go

    London next week is going to be a horrible shock
    For London, if you carry over your morning routine.
    Yes I may have to “rein it in” on Delancey St, especially as the 29 bus goes past, with the top
    floor about six feet from my Juliet balconies

    Bit of a shock for commuters there

    I am sadly uneager to return. Not averse to nipping home but not desperately missing it either. I really want to see friends and family, of course. But Britain?

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
    I would say the uk has some of the most depressed people in the world. A toxic combination of rampant individualism social atomisation, depressing towns, falling living standards, declining public services and miserable weather.
    Could be worse, could be Russia.
    It's not much of a consolation.

    I don't think we're as bad as Truman says, but the last few years I have become much more pessimistic - the inability to do even basic things with public services being a big part of that, everything just seems too much for us.
    I wonder whether he has named himself after the great American President who fought the communists? Or perhaps it's to reflect the fact he feels he's living inside his own show being watched 24 hours a day.
    "Give 'em hell, comrade!"?

    BTW, perhaps worth noting, that noted GOP-Putinist US Representative Matt Gaetz (R-Redneck Riviera) grew up in house featured in "The Truman Show".

    Makes sense, seeing as how MG is representative example of jumped-up White Trash, a group including his mentor Donald Trump AND his idol Vladimir Putin.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    Omg wales are shite


    If Italy weren’t also quite shite they’d be winning 40-0
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Wales can't play rugby and can't elect half decent politicians.

    It's a miserable day to be Welsh.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    Jesus. Wales. Ouch
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,582
    ydoethur said:

    Wales can't play rugby and can't elect half decent politicians.

    It's a miserable day to be Welsh.

    I feel your pain. You just don’t have the players - all those great names have retired and no obvious replacements. Plus Rees zammit has gone

    Not great. Also Italy are much improved and deserve the lead
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    "Tru-man" = настоящий мужчина?

    Doubt that the real HST (or Bess Truman, or Tom Dewey for that matter) would buy it either way.

    Though reckon Henry Wallace AND Strom Thurmond would . . . hook, line and sinker.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    kjh said:

    Truman said:

    kjh said:

    Walking the dog this morning in the Surrey Hills. Glorious views on a beautiful sunny Spring day. There are foxes and deer in the garden (which are sending our dog mad) as well as daffodils and the bluebells are coming through and life is good (except that the summer raspberries have had all their tips taken out by the deer).

    Much as I love to travel and would love to see many of the places Leon visits, I do look forward to coming home. Only some bits of the French countryside seem to match it, which I enjoy on my annual bike trips through France.

    You must have a big garden to have deer in it.
    2/3 acre and no boundary fencing except for the bit for our dog. Deer are very common. Once I had a strobe and high pitched emitter to detect and deter the deer from eating the raspberries, but my wife mowed it. Never seen the inside of a 9v battery before.

    They love roses which I don't mind them eating.
    We back on to a paddock, and have had to put in additional fencing to keep the deer out of our garden. It was a real thrill the first time we saw one in the garden, but my wife was not best pleased at the destruction of the roses and other flowers.

    Still lovely to see them on the other side of the fence.
    We've had three deer grazing in the field opposite every day this winter - the dog seems to put them off trying to come into the garden though.

    In the past month for the first time we've got a pair of hares in the field too, which is lovely - never seen that before, they tend to stay up on the downs rather than in the (rather sodden) Blackmore Vale.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    This thread has

    declared Welsh politicians need to re-earn everybody's trust.

  • Leon said:

    I stand by my theorem, we may be seeing some Chinese sabotage added to Boeing’s real long-seated problems. The sabotage might be as basic as manipulating social media to worsen Boeing’s plight - so easy to do. Or there is some genuine physical/software sabotage

    The Chinese don't need to do a damn thing, this is all Boeing's fault. Their current issues can all be traced back to 1997 when they merged with McDonnell-Douglas. MDD's management were notorious for cutting corners and being obsessed with short-term financial gain at the expense of safety and the long-term health of the company, resulting in events like the DC-10 cargo door scandal - the fallout from which essentially ruined the company.

    But MDD's CEO, Harry Stonecipher, moved right over to Boeing after the merger and started running it his way. His successors were little better.

    I'm reminded of a quote from Sir Clive Sinclair after he had to sell his computer business to Alan Sugar in 1986: "I make money in order to make products. Alan makes products in order to make money."

    That neatly encapsulates the cultural change at Boeing. They've gone from an engineering-focussed company that built high quality aircraft and tried to make money doing that, to making aircraft as cheaply and quickly as possible to maximise short-term profits.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Truman said:

    malcolmg said:

    Truman said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Other Brexits were available.

    And all of them were shit

    There are degrees of crap, though. I think most of us could have lived with a much closer relationship in which there was still an element of pooled sovereignty and we accepted the four freedoms. It's pretty certain that's where we are going to end up.
    I'm not sure that Britain will ever find a relationship with the EU that is stable and enduring until it has come to terms with its post-Imperial place in the world.

    Britain hasn't moved on from the period of Empire and so the EU was viewed in that context. This meant that, because we weren't the Imperial masters of the EU, we had to be the colonized victims. Until this changes Britain can never be comfortable with accepting any supra-national jurisdiction that enforces common rules.

    Even many pro-Europeans view the EU in a similar way, but they argue that a post-Imperial Britain is unable to make its own way in the world, and so has no choice but to be part of the EU. This is a product of a crisis in confidence in a post-Imperial Britain. The kind of mentality that would welcome Imperial domination out of fear.

    Another post-Imperial delusion was exposed most clearly during the Truss Ministry. The bequest of Empire has been spent, and the world does not owe Britain a living. If Britain wants to be able to have better public services and lower taxes then it has to earn the extra wealth to pay for it.

    Once Britain has dealt with its Imperial insecurity, guilt and delusions, then it will be ready to create a lasting relationship with the EU that is based on reality, self-confidence and enlightened self-interest.

    I personally hope that would be a close relationship, but who knows? It might not be.

    I think memories of Empire are very niche and largely confined to small sections of the Conservative party and other parts of the right. For me, memories of WW2 and the perception of Britain standing alone were a much more powerful driver of Brexit. Growing up, they were everywhere for my generation - our parents hid in shelters ands/or were evacuated, our grandfathers fought and our grandmothers worked on the home front, there were bomb sites everywhere. We had films, TV programmes, comics and books all about it and so on. It was embedded in our folk memory - and understandably so. Whether we stood alone or not is immaterial, it seemed as if we did - and if we did it once, why not again?

    That folk memory is dying now. The immediate contact has gone. For my kids' generation, WW2 is as remote as WW1 was for us. What's more, everything is just much more interconnected than it was, often at the press of a button. As a result, they just do not see the world in the same way - again, understandably so. That is going to fundamentally change how the UK sees itself in the coming years.

    I don’t think the ages line up for this explanation. I thought the oldest voters, those who remembered WW2, were strongly Remain. Leave voters were baby boomers.
    Boomers do though have second hand memories of WWII. It was a huge part of the culture growing up in the 50s and 60s.

    Entirely rose tinted ones, of course.
    Normally agree with you on most things @Nigelb but I was born in 1954 and WWII to us at school growing up was ancient history. Weird of course because it was much closer in time then than the 80s and 90s are to me now, but they seem much more recent. I guess because I lived them, but didn't live WWII.
    Some real bollocks talked on here about boomers , if only today's cosseted lazy I want everything handed to me on a plate , whinge , whine barstewards had half the gumption , work ethics and principles of the boomers.
    Now those are the words of all old man. Problem is it was the boomers driving the 3 day week and winter of discontent. They didnt seem very keen on work then.
    Those days were great , I was young , got a pay rise every month, beer was cheap, worked hard then and loved life, good old 70's. You could buy a decent car for under £100 and have a great night out on a pound or two.
    I am still young at heart for sure, and never whinged about hard work then or now, or someone else getting more than me , etc in my life. Even through hard times my glass was always more than half full.
    Exactly and cheap property prices too.
    not compared to salarie sand very very difficult to get, you had to save with them for years and maximum 3 times salary
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Eabhal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Truman said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Other Brexits were available.

    And all of them were shit

    There are degrees of crap, though. I think most of us could have lived with a much closer relationship in which there was still an element of pooled sovereignty and we accepted the four freedoms. It's pretty certain that's where we are going to end up.
    I'm not sure that Britain will ever find a relationship with the EU that is stable and enduring until it has come to terms with its post-Imperial place in the world.

    Britain hasn't moved on from the period of Empire and so the EU was viewed in that context. This meant that, because we weren't the Imperial masters of the EU, we had to be the colonized victims. Until this changes Britain can never be comfortable with accepting any supra-national jurisdiction that enforces common rules.

    Even many pro-Europeans view the EU in a similar way, but they argue that a post-Imperial Britain is unable to make its own way in the world, and so has no choice but to be part of the EU. This is a product of a crisis in confidence in a post-Imperial Britain. The kind of mentality that would welcome Imperial domination out of fear.

    Another post-Imperial delusion was exposed most clearly during the Truss Ministry. The bequest of Empire has been spent, and the world does not owe Britain a living. If Britain wants to be able to have better public services and lower taxes then it has to earn the extra wealth to pay for it.

    Once Britain has dealt with its Imperial insecurity, guilt and delusions, then it will be ready to create a lasting relationship with the EU that is based on reality, self-confidence and enlightened self-interest.

    I personally hope that would be a close relationship, but who knows? It might not be.

    I think memories of Empire are very niche and largely confined to small sections of the Conservative party and other parts of the right. For me, memories of WW2 and the perception of Britain standing alone were a much more powerful driver of Brexit. Growing up, they were everywhere for my generation - our parents hid in shelters ands/or were evacuated, our grandfathers fought and our grandmothers worked on the home front, there were bomb sites everywhere. We had films, TV programmes, comics and books all about it and so on. It was embedded in our folk memory - and understandably so. Whether we stood alone or not is immaterial, it seemed as if we did - and if we did it once, why not again?

    That folk memory is dying now. The immediate contact has gone. For my kids' generation, WW2 is as remote as WW1 was for us. What's more, everything is just much more interconnected than it was, often at the press of a button. As a result, they just do not see the world in the same way - again, understandably so. That is going to fundamentally change how the UK sees itself in the coming years.

    I don’t think the ages line up for this explanation. I thought the oldest voters, those who remembered WW2, were strongly Remain. Leave voters were baby boomers.
    Boomers do though have second hand memories of WWII. It was a huge part of the culture growing up in the 50s and 60s.

    Entirely rose tinted ones, of course.
    Normally agree with you on most things @Nigelb but I was born in 1954 and WWII to us at school growing up was ancient history. Weird of course because it was much closer in time then than the 80s and 90s are to me now, but they seem much more recent. I guess because I lived them, but didn't live WWII.
    Some real bollocks talked on here about boomers , if only today's cosseted lazy I want everything handed to me on a plate , whinge , whine barstewards had half the gumption , work ethics and principles of the boomers.
    Now those are the words of all old man. Problem is it was the boomers driving the 3 day week and winter of discontent. They didnt seem very keen on work then.
    Those days were great , I was young , got a pay rise every month, beer was cheap, worked hard then and loved life, good old 70's. You could buy a decent car for under £100 and have a great night out on a pound or two.
    I am still young at heart for sure, and never whinged about hard work then or now, or someone else getting more than me , etc in my life. Even through hard times my glass was always more than half full.
    The average house price was 5x average salaries, compared with 9x now.
    yes and mortgages maximum was 3x so much harder than today
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    The Tories are all about divide and rule - it's howa corrupt oligarchy that has nothing in common with most of the population and is actively undermining their interests sustains itself in office. Hating on foreigners is a core plank of that strategy, Stop the Boats the latest iteration.

    I think that’s true. The people who bankroll the Tory Party don’t really care about immigration, they just knew it was a useful lever to pull to get us out of the EU. They created the hysteria with their newspapers and fed it and nurtured it in order to ultimately remove us from a supranational organisation that wasn’t afraid to curtail their power.

    I was in a McDonalds yesterday and the number of Asian males shuttling in and out, picking up orders for delivery, was striking. Here in Yvette Cooper’s constituency, where we’ve a lot of warehouses and logistics and stuff cos we’re where the A1 and M62 cross, the rise since Brexit of non-white faces in the streets and supermarkets is extremely noticeable. Whereas before immigrants were generally white Europeans. Poles, etc.

    I welcome it, it’s about time we caught up with the diversity of Leeds, for example. But it isn’t what most Brexit voters round here anticipated as a result of their Leave vote.
    Indeed. Though as I have pointed out endlessly the people who wanted the foreign to go home didn’t actually want to do the jobs the foreigners were doing. That’s why we need migration.

    Our society has decided that we all need the ability to click on our phone and have anything we like delivered quickly. That means we need an army of workers doing shitty jobs. So we want people delivering McDonalds but “I’m not getting a job delivering McDonalds”. So we have migrants but “how do we stop all these foreigners coming here and delivering my McDonalds”

    We can’t blame Covid for making people stupid. Many people pre-date Covid in that regard
    This isn't something unique to Britain.

    Britain is fairly average now for percentage of immigrants in the developed world, with about 14% of us born abroad. Canada, Australia, Switzerland are notably higher, as are Saudi and the UAE. We see this politically too, with migration being the hot topic in nearly all our countries. The exceptions are places like South Korea and Japan where the population pyramid is dangerously upside down.

    In a globalised world people want to move around, seeking out economic and social opportunity. There are many on here who have benefited from living abroad including posters who still do, and many more have friends or family from abroad. My own ancestors migrated to Australia in the 19th Century and back to England in the 1930's for example.

    Why should we deny such opportunity to others?

    The failure of migration policy is not so much the numbers but rather the failure to plan for such arrivals, and not just the PB obsession with housing, but also with programmes of integration and cultural assimilation.





    Agree apart from the fact that they have allowed far too many far too quickly and knackered everything. If done at a manageable rate it may have been ok but now people feel overrun in many areas and the services, housing , facilities have went to rat shit due to no planning and just opening the floodgates to any Tom , Dick or Harry regardless. Add the fact that many immigrants all crowd together and we see why we have so many issues.
    This highlights one of my points. Ayrshire has a falling population, even over a period when Scotlands population rose.

    https://www.ayrshire-today.co.uk/news/23791728.ayrshire-scotlands-census-shows-population-fall/

    Interesting. Likely employment based.
    Ayrshire coast is increasingly a retirement destination for Weegies. Older population = fewer kids.
    I intend to move to Ayrshire when I retire in a few years.
    Very pleasant it is too and apart from the nice places in Ayr, Doonfoot , etc vey reasonable. Coastline is beautiful and hour or so and you are in highlands. Hard to beat.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have a left leaning friend who spent some time working for the Tories in Cardiff Bay. Unsurprisingly it didn't work out but the reason she was prepared to do it was the desperate need for opposition in the place. Whether or not they can go it alone there is little chance of Labour being kicked out of office any time soon.

    If they need a coalition you can be sure that the minor party will get a hammering and we'll be back to Labour majority rule. Rinse and repeat.

    Devolution has been a disaster for Wales and Scotland: discuss

    I think it has. Well done new Labour
    I assume that is meant as a sarcastic remark about new Labour?

    Although knowing you perhaps it is sincere. What with this being the final weekend of the 6 nations are you drinking to the celts misery?
    I’m Cornish! And patriotically British

    I wish no ill on my fellow citizens in Harris, Harlech, or Huddersfield. Or Helens. I want them all to thrive. I have lots of family in Scotland and good friends in wales apart from anything else

    I genuinely think devolution has been bad for wales and Scotland as it has entrenched single parties in power for far too long. At least if the Nats lose next time Scotland might catch a break
    Ah for the halcyon days of long entrenched single party rule... Of parties the Scots and Welsh hadn't even voted for!
    you are having a giraffe, we had about 50 years of Labour corruption thanks.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,080
    slade said:

    The Lib Dems are in York today and tomorrow for their Spring conference. What are the odds on any mention in the media?

    So far I have heard an item in the news on R4, an article in the Observer, and a mention in PB.
This discussion has been closed.