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Donald Trump and the SNP have a lot in common – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,178

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    I don't think there's a single viewpoint more selfish and detestable than this position of yours. Pensioners already don't pay it, you're fully exempt!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,382

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Met have said that they will not start any investigation into criminal behaviour in 2026.

    This is just wrong. There is plenty they can be doing now so that the instant the inquiry report is finished they can be getting on with finalising the investigation.

    If anyone in the Home Office is reading this tell Cleverley to call the Met Commissioner into his office Monday am to tell him to pull his finger out of his arse and make this a priority.

    Otherwise, it looks very much as if government policy is to delay compensation so that everyone will have died and delay investigation so that anyone who might be prosecuted has either died or it is no longer possible to have a fair trial.

    It is despicable.

    I'm pretty sure they're doing this on political orders.

    Just as it's very clear they soft-pedalled the investigations into Whitehall Covid parties on political orders, thereby unfortunately for us saving the careers of many senior but very stupid civil servants.
    And politicians, TBH. It’s high time someone had a really good look at the Met and decided what their operational rules were.
    I don't think they saved many politicians. The only really senior one from that time who is still around is Sunak.

    Admittedly, almost all of them were forced out for other reasons. But they have gone.

    The likes of Case and Acland-Hood are still there and still screwing up mahoosively.
  • Options
    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,178
    edited March 10
    Chameleon said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    I don't think there's a single viewpoint more selfish and detestable than this position of yours. Pensioners already don't pay it, you're fully exempt!
    Also describing a 4% above inflation rise in the state pension as 'screwing pensioners' absolutely reeks of entitlement when most working age people who pay for voluntary unemployment due to age are taking real wage cut after real wage cut.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,922
    Chameleon said:

    On a semi related note - one of my friends is lucky enough to earn just above £100k this year - he's worked out that the marginal rate of tax on his salary is 79% (13.8% gross NI eer, 40% higher rate, 20% PA withdrawal, 15% student loans, 2% NI) - after the minimum 5% e'ee pension amount he takes home just 16p in every additional pound his employer pays. For someone born a couple of years earlier they'd take home 29p after the pension deduction. His £7,000 odd UG SL payments a year only decreases his student loan by about £2k, so it's not like it's a short term hit either!

    The Tories' tax obfuscation has hidden the fact that we do have high taxes in this country, but we levy them exclusively on the young and asset poor (can't avoid taking loans, and are locked into spiralling rents) who are subjected to eyewatering marginal rates. A postgrad on £30k had a marginal rate of 54% (including e'er NI) before christmas!

    What the student loan system has done is effectively made further tax rises on mid to well paid professionals essentially unviable - even at the current rate the majority of higher rate tax payers in their 20s that I know are actively looking to emigrate. First one is leaving this year.

    Yes. I don't think you can count the 13.8% employer NI contribution though. At that level you need to restructure your affairs to put money in to a private pension or else it becomes a farce. The student loan interest regime is a complete scandal.

    There are other consequences of the punitive tax system for employment. I came to the conclusion last year after a few years of being a higher earner is that the optimum thing to do is take a job in the public sector with a DB pension (even though friends regard it as 'myopic'), and then just try and keep your overheads down ie work at home, no commuting costs, etc. A 50k job in local government is equivalent to a £65k job in the private sector on my reckoning, or £75k if you need to be in the office 5 days a week and run a car/buy a season ticket. Personally I could potentially earn 100-120 k in the private sector after a few years of effort, but there would be many sacrifices and the benefits are unclear.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,518
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    I still think they need to revisit the
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    PS I am not pursuing justice for anyone , I only point out that peopel on here with plenty money constantly whinge about rich pensioners when in fact majority of pensioners are far from rich. £200 would make no difference to me , given I pay multiple times the state pension in tax monthly.
    I have got quite a mixed experience personally. Some people I know are on state pension/pension credit. But the majority are on defined benefit pensions, keeping up large detached houses and going on expensive holidays every year and supporting their children/grandchildren. The latter rather impacts on my view of this issue even though I accept my experience is probably unrepresentative.

    I have also realised that I am probably on course to be a well off pensioner due to a DB public sector pension, plus the ability to top this up for periods of time by way of a SIPP. I see it is rather different to those in private sector jobs with pension pots building up at 10% of their gross income annually.
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    PS I am not pursuing justice for anyone , I only point out that peopel on here with plenty money constantly whinge about rich pensioners when in fact majority of pensioners are far from rich. £200 would make no difference to me , given I pay multiple times the state pension in tax monthly.
    I have got quite a mixed experience personally. Some people I know are on state pension/pension credit. But the majority are on defined benefit pensions, keeping up large detached houses and going on expensive holidays every year and supporting their children/grandchildren. The latter rather impacts on my view of this issue even though I accept my experience is probably unrepresentative.

    I have also realised that I am probably on course to be a well off pensioner due to a DB public sector pension, plus the ability to top this up for periods of time by way of a SIPP. I see it is rather different to those in private sector jobs with pension pots building up at 10% of their gross income annually.
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    PS I am not pursuing justice for anyone , I only point out that peopel on here with plenty money constantly whinge about rich pensioners when in fact majority of pensioners are far from rich. £200 would make no difference to me , given I pay multiple times the state pension in tax monthly.
    I have got quite a mixed experience personally. Some people I know are on state pension/pension credit. But the majority are on defined benefit pensions, keeping up large detached houses and going on expensive holidays every year and supporting their children/grandchildren. The latter rather impacts on my view of this issue even though I accept my experience is probably unrepresentative.

    I have also realised that I am probably on course to be a well off pensioner due to a DB public sector pension, plus the ability to top this up for periods of time by way of a SIPP. I see it is rather different to those in private sector jobs with pension pots building up at 10% of their gross income annually.
    Yes my saving grace was a long time in a DB pension , I have always spent more than I earned so not being able to access that saved me. I took out the money on that and put in a SIPP and now have a DC pension going which is ok but nothing like DB.
  • Options
    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,178
    edited March 10
    darkage said:

    Chameleon said:

    On a semi related note - one of my friends is lucky enough to earn just above £100k this year - he's worked out that the marginal rate of tax on his salary is 79% (13.8% gross NI eer, 40% higher rate, 20% PA withdrawal, 15% student loans, 2% NI) - after the minimum 5% e'ee pension amount he takes home just 16p in every additional pound his employer pays. For someone born a couple of years earlier they'd take home 29p after the pension deduction. His £7,000 odd UG SL payments a year only decreases his student loan by about £2k, so it's not like it's a short term hit either!

    The Tories' tax obfuscation has hidden the fact that we do have high taxes in this country, but we levy them exclusively on the young and asset poor (can't avoid taking loans, and are locked into spiralling rents) who are subjected to eyewatering marginal rates. A postgrad on £30k had a marginal rate of 54% (including e'er NI) before christmas!

    What the student loan system has done is effectively made further tax rises on mid to well paid professionals essentially unviable - even at the current rate the majority of higher rate tax payers in their 20s that I know are actively looking to emigrate. First one is leaving this year.

    Yes. I don't think you can count the 13.8% employer NI contribution though. At that level you need to restructure your affairs to put money in to a private pension or else it becomes a farce. The student loan interest regime is a complete scandal.

    There are other consequences of the punitive tax system for employment. I came to the conclusion last year after a few years of being a higher earner is that the optimum thing to do is take a job in the public sector with a DB pension (even though friends regard it as 'myopic'), and then just try and keep your overheads down ie work at home, no commuting costs, etc. A 50k job in local government is equivalent to a £65k job in the private sector on my reckoning, or £75k if you need to be in the office 5 days a week and run a car/buy a season ticket. Personally I could potentially earn 100-120 k in the private sector after a few years of effort, but there would be many sacrifices and the benefits are unclear.

    I think the employers' NI point is arguable - as it's just another payroll tax that isn't seen as a line item on payslips but still exists! The issue with putting money into a private pension is that it reduces your pay for mortgage purposes, meaning that you'll be stuck in cramp overpriced rentals for far longer. It's the perfect money siphoning racket from the young to the old - as they're being squeezed from both sides.

    Agreed about taking lower paid jobs, if I remain here I'll be cutting down to 3 or 4 days within 5 years or so, as 40% of our Directors (who are at £100k) have already done.

    There's little I'm looking forward to more than the next election, I'm going to take the day off and laugh as I see Tory after Tory made redundant. Maybe only after they find something else they'll realise just how much they made work not worth it.
  • Options
    DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited March 10
    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    I still think they need to revisit the whole tax and benefits system but no-one will ever have the balls to do it.
    There's nothing worse than hearing 60-something middle class blokes talk about pensions and what public policy on pensions should be, in their opinion, if the government really had some gonads. Talk about "entitled". You just have to listen to them and you know it's one of their favourite topics.

    That said, no government has even been able to sort out the bus pass system yet.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,184

    Mr. Jessop, the Armenians are screwed.

    Azerbaijan will try to connect its exclave to the rest of its territory sooner or later, and this means (probably) taking the southern border with Iran. Iran will be on Armenia's side, but the Azeris have agreements with Turkey and Israel. No idea if that'd involve them actually joining the war, but Russia, formerly Armenia's backer as you mentioned, won't be doing a damned thing.

    I look forward to us sending them billions of pounds worth of weapons, training their army, and sanctioning the invaders then.

    Conservative MPs are (understandably) panicking. They look back to their most recent successes: Johnson winning in 2019, Brexit referendum, Uxbridge by-election. And they think, let’s do that again.

    But they make the mistake of not looking at Johnson’s polling when he left office (abysmal) or Brexit right/wrong polling now (very wrong). If they try Brexit 2 Electric Bugaloo (a.k.a. an ECHR referendum) or bringing Boris back in some way, they’ll crash and burn. Even going on about LTNs isn’t going to save them given how popular they turn out to be.

    The Conservatives need to identify things they’ve done that are still popular (support during the pandemic and support on energy bills are obvious things for Sunak to talk about) or new proposals that will be popular, although even here faith in the party is so low that no-one believes they can deliver anything.

    I think you might be in danger of believing your own publicity there. LTNs have not 'proven so popular', a report by the DFT, hardly a disinterested party, has stated that they 'prove popular eventually'.

    Boris's polling on the eve of his departure was at figures the Tories can only longingly dream of now - those figures translate to real MPs losing their livelihoods.

    The 'grown ups' came 'back in the room' and they're crap. Hardly surprising Tory MPs are longing for the return of Boris.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,482
    Chameleon said:

    On a semi related note - one of my friends is lucky enough to earn just above £100k this year - he's worked out that the marginal rate of tax on his salary is 79% (13.8% gross NI eer, 40% higher rate, 20% PA withdrawal, 15% student loans, 2% NI) - after the minimum 5% e'ee pension amount he takes home just 16p in every additional pound his employer pays. For someone born a couple of years earlier they'd take home 29p after the pension deduction. His £7,000 odd UG SL payments a year only decreases his student loan by about £2k, so it's not like it's a short term hit either!

    The Tories' tax obfuscation has hidden the fact that we do have high taxes in this country, but we levy them exclusively on the young and asset poor (can't avoid taking loans, and are locked into spiralling rents) who are subjected to eyewatering marginal rates. A postgrad on £30k had a marginal rate of 54% (including e'er NI) before christmas!

    What the student loan system has done is effectively made further tax rises on mid to well paid professionals essentially unviable - even at the current rate the majority of higher rate tax payers in their 20s that I know are actively looking to emigrate. First one is leaving this year.

    This is, of course, in turn the product of our having evolved into an essentially moribund economy in which vast and increasingly sums of what might otherwise be productive capital are instead sunk into piles of artificially scarce and vastly overpriced bricks.

    Property warps everything. The logical way to relieve the tax burden on earned incomes would be to go after the immense store of wealth held in residential property, through the widespread levying of death duties and land value taxation. But you can't do it, because there are simply too many vested interests. And you can't even begin to correct the property problem through mass scale building either, because again there are too many vested interests.

    This is why we end up with a political system in which various flavours of Tory compete with each other to convince the electorate that their own marginally different takes on perma austerity are the best ones. The country is stuffed with more old, poor and sick people than it can cope with, and the money to remedy all their problems cannot be found because earned incomes have already been bled white and the owners of valuable assets are too wealthy and numerous for politicians to defy. This means that all Government can do is gradually shut itself down, one piece it a time, as its income is squeezed and it retrenches into a smaller number of core functions.

    We're seeing a foretaste of this in the behaviour of local councils, where they are gradually morphing - at different rates, but the direction of travel is the same for all of them - into statutory only bodies. Give it another ten or fifteen years and there will be no more public libraries, leisure centres of swimming pools. No more youth centres or publicly subsidised clubs for the elderly, no more recycling centres and no road repairs. Councils, which will be directed by this point from Whitehall, as they'll all have gone bankrupt and councillors will have been stripped of any real power - will do virtually nothing but commission social services and empty the bins once every four or six weeks.

    As with councils so, ultimately, with the entire state. It'll come to the point where cuts are no longer enough and it simply has to stop being involved in whole spheres of activity.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,339
    This thread has been pensioned off.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    AlsoLei said:

    Stocky said:

    malcolmg said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    My wife and I are both pensioners, we have two incomes both from contributory pensions and we are not yet old enough to have a state pension (thanks to the qualifying date for this being raised.)

    We both pay a marginal rate of 20% on our incomes. Income tax, nothing else. We were paid to go to university, so no student loans ever. We have no housing costs, having long ago paid off our mortgage (having been fortunate to start out on the housing ladder when properties were cheap, we never had a mortgage of more than £50k.) We have no family to raise. So our incomes are more than enough to live on, indeed our savings our going up and we spend freely.

    Now compare that to my son and his wife, in their early thirties, whose gross income is about the same as ours. They both pay 20% income tax, 10% NI currently, 9% student loan repayments (probably lasting 30 years) and pension contributions of 5% and 6% respectively. So they face a marginal rate of 44%-45% deductions from their income. Whats left goes on a £200k mortgage for a very modest house and raising one child so far. They struggle to make ends meet and have to watch every penny. Luckily for them they have Bank of Mum and Dad to fall back on, but others are not so lucky.

    If this Chancellor and any future Chancellor want to level the playing field between my privileged retired generation and a generation of young adults in work who are struggling to make ends meet, through cutting NI and raising income tax by stealth, then I am all for it. The principle for me is that two people on the same income should pay the same rate of tax on it, regardless of the source of that income.
    Very well said.
    Indeed and those in labour who attack the long term objective of eliminating NI and equalising the tax rate for all, with increased personal allowance to shield poorer pensioners are perversely on the side of the pensioners v the workers who are precently paying double taxation
    They going to refund all the pensioners who paid NI for 50 years then, what twisted logic does someone who has paid NI for one or two years compare with someone who paid it for 50+ years. Nobody is double taxed , only idiots think that.
    But they never paid NI for their own pension. There is no pot of money you paid into.

    If you were gullible enough to believe that no wonder you are so desperate for money. I'll help you out, next time a Nigerian Prince emails you, don't send him your money, then you won't be so desperate anymore.
    No tangible pot of money, but the amount of state pension entitlement an individual has depends on their NI record, which includes NI contributions paid when working (and contributions that are credited (deemed paid) when unable to work).

    If NI is merged into income tax then how is each person's entitlement to be measured?

    Malc's objections to NI reductions are based on this: why should someone continue to have to pay NI when they are no longer adding to their entitlement.
    Reverse the question: you only need 35 years of NICs to qualify for the full state pension so, once someone has reached this, why should they have to continue paying until they're 68?

    The contributory aspect maybe made more sense in the past, when plenty of people didn't do 35 years of paid employment. But the number of people these days who can afford to take 12 or more years out of work must be vanishingly small.

    If it causes problems for the very sensible goal of merging NI and Income tax, then get rid of it and use the UC eligibility rules instead.
    Last thing we need is to expand UC and dependency welfare over the state pension and JSA requiring employee NI contributions
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    TimS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Those comments from the Pope are not great:

    "When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. Negotiations are never a surrender."

    Imagine he said that to the people of Gaza.

    It makes me wonder where he's getting his information from. That sounds like he's lapping up the septic anal spewings of the tankies and the Russian foreign ministry.
    My theory: he has regular “ecumenical” conversations with patriarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church. I doubt he has equivalent chats with their Ukrainian equivalents. He will be hearing full on Russian propaganda from those people whom he no doubt considers his brothers in Christ.

    The Catholic and orthodox churches have been trying to patch things up for decades, with most of the effort on the Catholic side.
    The symbolic head of the Orthodox church is the pro Ukraine Grand Patriarch of Constantinople NOT Putin's Patriarch Kirill. Welby has also put the weight of the Anglican Communion behind Ukraine
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,917
    You’ll Never Walk Alone.

    Stirring anthem.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 118,210
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Those comments from the Pope are not great:

    "When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. Negotiations are never a surrender."

    Imagine he said that to the people of Gaza.

    It makes me wonder where he's getting his information from. That sounds like he's lapping up the septic anal spewings of the tankies and the Russian foreign ministry.
    My theory: he has regular “ecumenical” conversations with patriarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church. I doubt he has equivalent chats with their Ukrainian equivalents. He will be hearing full on Russian propaganda from those people whom he no doubt considers his brothers in Christ.

    The Catholic and orthodox churches have been trying to patch things up for decades, with most of the effort on the Catholic side.
    The symbolic head of the Orthodox church is the pro Ukraine Grand Patriarch of Constantinople NOT Putin's Patriarch Kirill. Welby has also put the weight of the Anglican Communion behind Ukraine
    "Zelenskyy: I thank Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew for the spiritual support of Ukraine | Orthodox Times (en)" https://orthodoxtimes.com/zelenskyy-i-thank-ecumenical-patriarch-bartholomew-for-the-spiritual-support-of-ukraine/
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    FlannerFlanner Posts: 418
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Those comments from the Pope are not great:

    "When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. Negotiations are never a surrender."

    Imagine he said that to the people of Gaza.

    It makes me wonder where he's getting his information from. That sounds like he's lapping up the septic anal spewings of the tankies and the Russian foreign ministry.
    My theory: he has regular “ecumenical” conversations with patriarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church. I doubt he has equivalent chats with their Ukrainian equivalents. He will be hearing full on Russian propaganda from those people whom he no doubt considers his brothers in Christ.

    The Catholic and orthodox churches have been trying to patch things up for decades, with most of the effort on the Catholic side.
    The symbolic head of the Orthodox church is the pro Ukraine Grand Patriarch of Constantinople NOT Putin's Patriarch Kirill. Welby has also put the weight of the Anglican Communion behind Ukraine
    The Vatican has a fully staffed Foreign Service (headed, btw, by an Englishman), with proper diplomats throughout the world. In practice, its dialogue with the Orthodox Church is, so far as is possible, with both Constantinople and Moscow, because the Pope's needs to preserve a reasonable environment for Catholics in Orthodox-dominated countries extends roughly as much to countries with a Constantinople leaning (like Greece) as to countries with a Moscow bent (like most of the former Iron Curtain). Oddly, the vast majority of Ukrainian Orthodox exiles in Western Europe and the EU tend to worship in Catholic churches: Catholicism and Orthodoxy recognise each other's priestly orders and there are very few Orthodox churches outside a handful of very big cities

    The real reasons the Pope is disturbingly "soft" on Putin's aggression are:
    - He's pragmatic, but has a crap grasp of real politics (he was equally "soft" on Galtieri's nonsense during the Falklands war, because he had a flock to defend)
    - He's instinctively an opponent of all war
    - There's an equally disturbing amount of "softness" towards Putin among many of the Third World cardinals he sees as the future of Catholicism - and among a lot of Italian churchgoers.
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    FlannerFlanner Posts: 418
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    tlg86 said:

    Those comments from the Pope are not great:

    "When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate. Negotiations are never a surrender."

    Imagine he said that to the people of Gaza.

    It makes me wonder where he's getting his information from. That sounds like he's lapping up the septic anal spewings of the tankies and the Russian foreign ministry.
    My theory: he has regular “ecumenical” conversations with patriarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church. I doubt he has equivalent chats with their Ukrainian equivalents. He will be hearing full on Russian propaganda from those people whom he no doubt considers his brothers in Christ.

    The Catholic and orthodox churches have been trying to patch things up for decades, with most of the effort on the Catholic side.
    The symbolic head of the Orthodox church is the pro Ukraine Grand Patriarch of Constantinople NOT Putin's Patriarch Kirill. Welby has also put the weight of the Anglican Communion behind Ukraine
    The Vatican has a fully staffed Foreign Service (headed, btw, by an Englishman), with proper diplomats throughout the world. In practice, its dialogue with the Orthodox Church is, so far as is possible, with both Constantinople and Moscow, because the Pope's needs to preserve a reasonable environment for Catholics in Orthodox-dominated countries extends roughly as much to countries with a Constantinople leaning (like Greece) as to countries with a Moscow bent (like most of the former Iron Curtain). Oddly, the vast majority of Ukrainian Orthodox exiles in Western Europe and the EU tend to worship in Catholic churches: Catholicism and Orthodoxy recognise each other's priestly orders and there are very few Orthodox churches outside a handful of very big cities

    The real reasons the Pope is disturbingly "soft" on Putin's aggression are:
    - He's pragmatic, but has a crap grasp of real politics (he was equally "soft" on Galtieri's nonsense during the Falklands war, because he had a flock to defend)
    - He's instinctively an opponent of all war
    - There's an equally disturbing amount of "softness" towards Putin among many of the Third World cardinals he sees as the future of Catholicism - and among a lot of Italian churchgoers.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,518
    Donkeys said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    darkage said:

    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    theProle said:

    theProle said:

    Off thread but I have to say it...The Tories have got one more shot to get my vote back. They've screwed pensioners in this budget. If they don't do something in the Next statement I will do something I never thought I could do and Vote Labour.

    How exactly did they do pensioners over? As far as I can see, they did nothing that altered the situation for them at-all? Or do you feel entitled to a tax cut and are miffed that the cut they chose doesn't apply to you?
    Why shoukd pensioners be exempt from a tax cut
    Because they were already exempt from paying that tax anyway? If you want to volunteer to pay NI at its new reduced rate, I'm sure HMRC will cheerfully take your money.

    I don't complain I didn't get anything out of them moving the VAT threshold, despite owning a small business that still has to charge VAT. I'm not complaining that they've moved the child benefit withdrawal threshold, despite the fact that I don't get child benefit.

    Complaining that you've been "screwed" by a tax cut on a tax *you don't need to pay anyway* is simply rediculous.
    Cobblers
    The Govt has given to a specific tax cut to a group that excludes pensioners....
    Now imagine they'd been doing it for the last 10+ years and have some sympathy for the young.

    Have the Boomers Pinched Their Children’s Futures? - with Lord David Willetts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A
    If I was advising the labour party I would suggest setting the pensioners off against each other. I would create something called the 'living pension', a 'step change' where pensioners get at least £200 a month more. Only this - and more - is claimed back through taxes on pensioners with higher private incomes. So you end up with two groups, rich and poor pensioners with fundamentally different interests in opposition to each other, no longer can posters like @malcolmg claim to be pursuing justice for all pensioners. It would then be very challenging for the Conservative party or their successors to remove the 'living pension' or to justify tax cuts aimed specifically at wealthy pensioners, the latter group would struggle to find supporters in politics.

    Pensioners already are two/multiple tier as many get pension credits , rent paid , council tax paid etc , etc the whole system is a convoluted shambles
    These benefits are means tested I think, this would reduce the cost of the 'living pension'. Communications would be an issue though.
    I still think they need to revisit the whole tax and benefits system but no-one will ever have the balls to do it.
    There's nothing worse than hearing 60-something middle class blokes talk about pensions and what public policy on pensions should be, in their opinion, if the government really had some gonads. Talk about "entitled". You just have to listen to them and you know it's one of their favourite topics.

    That said, no government has even been able to sort out the bus pass system yet.
    @DONKEYS Middle class , what a wag
This discussion has been closed.