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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Newly published Ipsos-MORI polling finds fewer voters hostile to LAB than the other main parties

Rather than the conventional voting intention questions interviewees were asked for views of the four main national parties and whether they’d consider voting for them in both general elections and the Euros, general elections only, the Euros only, or whether they’d never consider voting for them.

Read the full story here

jeffrey

First

DavidL

jeffrey said:

First

An insomniac jeffrey, you will fit right in.

I am struggling to make much of this data. Although the % who would never vote Labour is lower the other figures for specific elections seem much more in line with each other. I wonder if this reflects any more than the current Labour lead.

GeoffM

jeffrey said:

First

Welcome to PB Mr jeffrey.

Starting off here by claiming a "First" is a brave and presumptuous marker of intent.

Stuart_Dickson

DavidL said:

jeffrey said:

First

An insomniac jeffrey, you will fit right in.

I am struggling to make much of this data. Although the % who would never vote Labour is lower the other figures for specific elections seem much more in line with each other. I wonder if this reflects any more than the current Labour lead.

Snap.

GeoffM

Ref: the exclusion of "Don't knows".
The thought of someone being offered the simple binary options of Totally Against/Would Think About It and yet *still* not being able to pick one is odd. Where did they get these strange people?

DavidL

Anyway, since I don't understand the thread can I recommend what is sadly going to be Matt Taibbi's swan song for Rolling Stone? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-vampire-squid-strikes-again-the-mega-banks-most-devious-scam-yet-20140212

It is a deeply concerning story about the consequences of deregulation of the finance industry and the subsequent blatant manipulation of prices to the detriment of everyone else. The LME plays a leading role as do several large and well known commodity dealers based in London. You would like to think this would trigger more investigations but who knows.

The idea that even newly constituted bodies like the Financial Conduct Authority are going to be able to stop such manipulation and abuse is a bit of a stretch. What is clear is that the risks being run by the mega investment houses are, if anything, greater than they were in 2008.

david_herdson

On topic, I'm not sure about whether it's legitimate to exclude Don't Knows. While it might be fair enough to exclude Won't Votes (their existence won't affect the votes cast), don't knows are a different matter. Those voters, on the margins, do play a fairly critical role in determining election outcomes.

As for the figures presented, they're interesting and may be meaningful for tactical considerations but clearly all the parties poll way below their potential available vote based on them (67% in the case of Labour), so there must be other, very significant, limiting factors. Indeed, I wonder whether it would be more legitimate to ask people which parties they *have* supported in the last 10/20 years to gauge their potential support? (I appreciate that this may understate parties like UKIP, which have only recently made their mark).

david_herdson

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

Financier

david_herdson said:

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

Listening to R4, I understand that the reason given is the lack of a currency union which would affect interest rates and taxation. Thus they would move both money and people to England - also most of their clients are based in England. Apparently in their Annual Report, Standard Life disclose that they have set up companies in England in preparation for such measures.

It was thought that this could trigger other companies to do likewise.

Alanbrooke

DavidL said:

Anyway, since I don't understand the thread can I recommend what is sadly going to be Matt Taibbi's swan song for Rolling Stone? http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-vampire-squid-strikes-again-the-mega-banks-most-devious-scam-yet-20140212

It is a deeply concerning story about the consequences of deregulation of the finance industry and the subsequent blatant manipulation of prices to the detriment of everyone else. The LME plays a leading role as do several large and well known commodity dealers based in London. You would like to think this would trigger more investigations but who knows.

The idea that even newly constituted bodies like the Financial Conduct Authority are going to be able to stop such manipulation and abuse is a bit of a stretch. What is clear is that the risks being run by the mega investment houses are, if anything, greater than they were in 2008.

That's a really interesting article. Scary.

JosiasJessop

Financier said:

david_herdson said:

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

Listening to R4, I understand that the reason given is the lack of a currency union which would affect interest rates and taxation. Thus they would move both money and people to England - also most of their clients are based in England. Apparently in their Annual Report, Standard Life disclose that they have set up companies in England in preparation for such measures.

It was thought that this could trigger other companies to do likewise.

I would think most large companies would have a handful of staff wargaming what a yes vote might mean for them, and potentially putting steps in place to save time *if* they need to alter their operations in whichever direction.

It's just simple business sense. There's always the possibility that some might retrench from England to Scotland, but given the different sizes of the economies, that would seem a brave move.

Financier

Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) has reported its sixth annual loss since it was rescued by the UK government in 2008.

The bank's pre-tax loss for 2013 was £8.2bn.

However, excluding bad bank and legacy costs, RBS made an operating profit of £2.5bn.

It incurred impairments and losses of £4.8bn due to the establishment of a new internal "bad bank", known as RBS Capital Resolution (RCR).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26364715

JosiasJessop

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

JackW

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

Absolutely.

YES have made an absolutely dogs breakfast of the currency issue and it will nag away at their cause until they have a cast iron solution.

With both the pound and euro ruled out the best of a bad job will be a new Scottish currency pegged initially to the pound/euro or less likely the dollar. YES need to bite the bullet and soon.

rcs1000

As the majority if Standard Life's business is with the British, I would imagine that - in the event of Scottish independence - it would choose remain a company incorporated in rUK. It might still run its asset management out of Edinburgh, but the holding company (and the head office) would likely be south of the border.

Mick_Pork

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

Scrapheap_as_was

Standard Life vs SNP in 2014

UK PLC vs Ed Miliband in 2015?

Alanbrooke

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

Scottish press reporting Plan C, Salmond says voters in EWNI should have no say on whether we enter a currency union with Jocktopia, apparently he knows better and it's all for our own good.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/uk-should-not-vote-on-currency-union-salmond-1-3321888

Mick_Pork

A reminder for the amusing PB Romneys with the memory of a goldfish.

Billionaire CEO Threatens To Fire Employees If Obama Wins


The CEO of a massive timeshare company sent an email about the upcoming election to his employees yesterday, threatening to fire some of them if President Obama wins re-election

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/10/09/978211/david-siegel-fire-employees/#

Posturing is not reality.

Ask the fop chicken and his own gullible Eurosceptic backbenchers.

JackW

rcs1000 said:

As the majority if Standard Life's business is with the British, I would imagine that - in the event of Scottish independence - it would choose remain a company incorporated in rUK. It might still run its asset management out of Edinburgh, but the holding company (and the head office) would likely be south of the border.

Quite so.

This is another issue that has consequences for YES as companies large and small infer a move south if YES win. By contrast are many looking to move north ?!?

AlastairMeeks

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

The Russians have already created Transnistria. Who knows, we may see them create a Transdneipria?

DavidL

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

SouthamObserver

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

AlastairMeeks

The SNP will be fervently praying that Standard Life are going to be the only company to break cover. Their prayers probably will not be answered.

Mick_Pork

David Jones ‏@DAVIDJONES_dpaj 13m

David Cameron hopes Angela Merkel will help him see off his party’s Eurosceptics. But she can’t and she won’t http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/david-cameron-hopes-angela-merkel-will-help-him-see-off-his-partys-eurosceptics-but-she-cant-and-she-wont-9155302.html …

Poor old gullible Eurosceptics, what a shame.

DavidL

Financier said:

Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) has reported its sixth annual loss since it was rescued by the UK government in 2008.

The bank's pre-tax loss for 2013 was £8.2bn.

However, excluding bad bank and legacy costs, RBS made an operating profit of £2.5bn.

It incurred impairments and losses of £4.8bn due to the establishment of a new internal "bad bank", known as RBS Capital Resolution (RCR).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26364715

Isn't it amazing how each year they find enough bad debt to write off the trading profits? It's almost like they had an almost limitless supply of the stuff.

malcolmg

Financier said:

david_herdson said:

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

Listening to R4, I understand that the reason given is the lack of a currency union which would affect interest rates and taxation. Thus they would move both money and people to England - also most of their clients are based in England. Apparently in their Annual Report, Standard Life disclose that they have set up companies in England in preparation for such measures.

It was thought that this could trigger other companies to do likewise.

Who cares , they can slink off

Mick_Pork

Sad news for the yellow tories who thought Clegg had finished with his authoritarian stupidity.

PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 2m

Clegg claims letters to terror suspects are "a legacy issue from previous govt" (although 38 letters sent under this Govt).

malcolmg

DavidL said:

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

We will see the shit poor businesses leaving so what , Standard Life are crap, we will be well shot of them.

Alanbrooke

SouthamObserver said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

I have a chunk of my pension with SL, the first thing I will do on a Yes vote will be move it to a UK domiciled fund. I don't particulary want a currency issue in retirement.

SouthamObserver

rcs1000 said:

As the majority if Standard Life's business is with the British, I would imagine that - in the event of Scottish independence - it would choose remain a company incorporated in rUK. It might still run its asset management out of Edinburgh, but the holding company (and the head office) would likely be south of the border.

So Scotland takes a big Corporation Tax hit as all other major players in its financial services sector do the same. Good news for the rUK though. Maybe a chance to incentivise relocators to set up operations in, say, Manchester or Newcastle?

JackW

SeanT said:

JackW said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

Absolutely.

YES have made an absolutely dogs breakfast of the currency issue and it will nag away at their cause until they have a cast iron solution.

With both the pound and euro ruled out the best of a bad job will be a new Scottish currency pegged initially to the pound/euro or less likely the dollar. YES need to bite the bullet and soon.

But if they go for that they'd have to admit that, initially, it would cost way more for them to borrow, and public services would be cut, blah blah - plus it would not solve the tax and regulation issues that vex firms like Standard Life.

Problem for Nats is that there IS no obvious solution to the currency thing. It is amazing they didn't think this through. Clearly, they never expected London to turn around and say No, we're not having a formal sterling zone. It's like they never expected London to Get Real.

Indeed so @SeanT

However YES have to grasp the thistle. Having no Plan C is not a viable option. Into such a vacuum only grave uncertainty will prosper and that will be suicide for YES.

Difficult decisions are the price of independence and this decision needs to be grasped very quickly.

Mick_Pork

malcolmg said:

Financier said:

david_herdson said:

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

Listening to R4, I understand that the reason given is the lack of a currency union which would affect interest rates and taxation. Thus they would move both money and people to England - also most of their clients are based in England. Apparently in their Annual Report, Standard Life disclose that they have set up companies in England in preparation for such measures.

It was thought that this could trigger other companies to do likewise.

Who cares , they can slink off

It's obvious posturing. You can't seriously expect those who believe all Cast Iron Cameron's promises and pledges to suddenly spot it now anymore than you can expect spanish nationalists to be objective on Independence.

Alanbrooke

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

We will see the shit poor businesses leaving so what , Standard Life are crap, we will be well shot of them.

So where are you going to get 5,000 jobs from ? They can't all be SNP spin doctors.

JosiasJessop

SeanT said:

Mick_Pork said:

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

lol. That must be the most desperate, revealing piece of ad hominism ever seen on pb. You didn't just play the man not the ball, you ran off the pitch, out of the stadium, down the road and into your wee home and headbutted the man who was talking on the TV.

Can I just say that was a brilliant response. ;-)

Mick_Pork

"Interestingly, given the way that the Lib Dems are planning to fight the May Euros 8% said they consider going yellow for those elections only. Clegg’s gamble on there being a specific niche market for being “the party of In” appears to be supported by these figures. "

Don't forget the 'shy' yellow tories to embarrassed to admit they are Clegg supporters.
They might turn out in droves for the EU elections.

Or not.

TOPPING

SouthamObserver said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Where the Nats are getting it wrong (how long have you got...) is to say this element will be fine (it won't) or that one will be (it won't either).

They should say look, it's going to be a bumpy ride. We are setting out for independence and we are doing this because it is our destiny. Not everyone will come with us but I promise you we will govern for all Scots and all of those issues will be sorted out in the years to come; we will have our own currency and institutions and society in good time.

Our children will come to inherit a prosperous, confident independent country and they will thank us for that.

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

F1: final test is underway.

Mr. G, must admit I groaned when I heard that we were one of the guarantors of Ukraine's territorial integrity. That said, you do seem oddly keen for a medium-sized war involving us.

malcolmg

david_herdson said:

Off topic, expect more "we'll see about that" / "oh no they wouldn't" -type comments from Scots Nats, as Standard Life threaten to relocate from Scotland in the event of a Yes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

David, most ordinary people just think these crooks should piss off anyway. Once again it will be seen as the Westminster elite bullying Scotland. Also given they have cried wolf previously , who cares just another elite unionist bumping their gums. Good riddance we say don't hit your arse on the way out.

rcs1000

SouthamObserver said:

rcs1000 said:

As the majority if Standard Life's business is with the British, I would imagine that - in the event of Scottish independence - it would choose remain a company incorporated in rUK. It might still run its asset management out of Edinburgh, but the holding company (and the head office) would likely be south of the border.

So Scotland takes a big Corporation Tax hit as all other major players in its financial services sector do the same. Good news for the rUK though. Maybe a chance to incentivise relocators to set up operations in, say, Manchester or Newcastle?

Well, it would be a little bit more complex than that.

Presumably Standard Life already exists as a series of companies.

(I'm making this up, but I'm pretty sure I'll be broadly right :-))

Standard Life Group PLC will own:

Standard Life Investments Ltd
Standard Life Insurance Ltd
Standard Life Bank Ltd
etc.

What will happen post independence would be:

Standard Life Group PLC would remain a UK company

A new entity Standard Life Scotland Ltd would be created.
Some of the parts of Standard Life would be subsidiaries of Standard Life Scotland Ltd (including all Scottish operations), but others would be British companies and be direcrty owned by the UK PLC.

Things get complex with transfer pricing, but - yes - there would almost certainly be some tax leakage to the UK. *Unless* Scotland decided to have a lower corporation tax than the UK, which would encourage SL (and other companies) to try and concentrate profits in the entities South of the Border, and would discourage people from repatriation of profits back to holding company level.

Mick_Pork

SeanT said:

Mick_Pork said:

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

lol. That must be the most desperate, revealing piece of ad hominism ever seen on pb.

I certainly haven't made inept death threats on anyone on PB posh lad. That would be you who did that. Bit rich for PB's supposed 'insult king' to start whining when it's dished back out to him for a change. Maybe you should ask Gildas to see if you can get you mojo back?

While you're at it ask Gildas why you've been obsessed with scottish matters since you returned from your 'unfortunate' absence? Anyone would think you're still upset because you made a complete fool of yourself.

Oh and if sex trafficking upsets you so much perhaps diving in with both feet on paedophile stories might not be the best course of action for you to take. Particularly considering what Louise Mensch had to educate you on.

malcolmg

Alanbrooke said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

We will see the shit poor businesses leaving so what , Standard Life are crap, we will be well shot of them.

So where are you going to get 5,000 jobs from ? They can't all be SNP spin doctors.

You seriously think they have 5000 working in Edinburgh, dream on. A bunch of two bit hustlers.

SimonStClare

Alex Salmond only has himself to blame for this monumental currency cockup - has he denounced Standard Life as ‘bullies’ or accused them of bluffing yet?

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

Mick_Pork said:

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

lol. That must be the most desperate, revealing piece of ad hominism ever seen on pb. You didn't just play the man not the ball, you ran off the pitch, out of the stadium, down the road and into your wee home and headbutted the man who was talking on the TV.

Can I just say that was a brilliant response. ;-)

Fools are easy pleased

malcolmg

SeanT said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

We will see the shit poor businesses leaving so what , Standard Life are crap, we will be well shot of them.

Is that the Official Scot Nat response to the Standard Life news? I can see you have been planning it for some time, in anticipation.

I have no connection with SNP , that is my personal opinion when some chiselling millionaire tosser tries to throw his toys out of the pram. F*** **F is too polite for these creeps.

JosiasJessop

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

Mick_Pork said:

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

lol. That must be the most desperate, revealing piece of ad hominism ever seen on pb. You didn't just play the man not the ball, you ran off the pitch, out of the stadium, down the road and into your wee home and headbutted the man who was talking on the TV.

Can I just say that was a brilliant response. ;-)

Fools are easy pleased

Well, you seem easily pleased with anything that Salmond says.

rcs1000

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Yeah, damn those Ukranians for wanting democracy

malcolmg

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

F1: final test is underway.

Mr. G, must admit I groaned when I heard that we were one of the guarantors of Ukraine's territorial integrity. That said, you do seem oddly keen for a medium-sized war involving us.

The cowardy custard bunch will avoid that gig time Morris. We do not have any worries on that front , they prefer little guys. They will not be messing with big boys in their own backyard.
Given all the friends they have in Europe ......... oops not many their either. Hoist by their own petard.

You can expect waving of pieces of paper and "peace in our lifetime" etc to be flooding out.

Mick_Pork

PB tory hypocrisy.

Businesses posture over Europe, not a story, please don't mention it.

Lib Dem Press Office ‏@LibDemPress

“If you are anti-Europe, you are anti-business, anti-growth, acting against the best interests of your country" http://ind.pn/1aBT5lz


ITV News ‏@itvnews

Business leaders including @richardbranson take aim at Eurosceptics in open letter http://itv.co/10fxT1b

In response these Matthew Elliott, of Business for Britain, said: “It is no surprise that some in the banking industry want to retain EU membership given that many banks are large and rich enough to handle Brussels’ burdensome regulatory framework.”

But Matthew, financial services employs hundreds of thousands of people in the UK. Shouldn’t we listen to them? Here are the figures for bank employment in the UK:

18,000 in the East of England
9,900 in Northern Ireland
13,600 in the North East
45,600 in the North West
39,400 in Scotland
33,700 in the South East
37,800 in the South West
30,200 in the West Midlands
42,400 in Yorkshire & Humber
14,200 in Wales
20,400 in the East Midlands
146,100 in London

http://britishinfluence.org/europhobes-cant-handle-fact-business-wants-us/

Remind us who's posturing again?

*chortle*

malcolmg

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SouthamObserver said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Where the Nats are getting it wrong (how long have you got...) is to say this element will be fine (it won't) or that one will be (it won't either).

They should say look, it's going to be a bumpy ride. We are setting out for independence and we are doing this because it is our destiny. Not everyone will come with us but I promise you we will govern for all Scots and all of those issues will be sorted out in the years to come; we will have our own currency and institutions and society in good time.

Our children will come to inherit a prosperous, confident independent country and they will thank us for that.

But they also know, from polling, that only about 20-25% of Scots will buy that emotional, Braveheart stuff. Whereas the larger number of Scots in the middle will vote on pragmatic grounds - will this make me and my family richer - and they will run to No if there is a hint that independence will likely make them poorer.

That's why Salmond is trying to sell his scheme as a modest and sensible proposal.

Sean, you make the mistake of thinking most people are grubby money grasping shysters like yourself. Most will see it for what it is and unlike you will not like it. We know you would rob a beggar to get more money but not all are like you.

[Deleted User]

some chiselling millionaire tosser

Is that your definition of a successful businessman Malcolm? This country needs alot more chiselling millionaire tossers and the jobs they bring.

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

SeanT said:

Mick_Pork said:

Re Sex Tourists, again it's the Thailand connection for those who still haven't learned their lesson from Louise Mensch.

Vonda ‏@booksoffer Feb 21

#2: Human Trafficking: A Real Life Point of View of Sex Slavery in Thailand from the Front Lines (Sex Slaves, ... http://amzn.to/1hgyaXq

These repugnant "sex tourists" need a plan F and it needs to be watertight etc.

lol. That must be the most desperate, revealing piece of ad hominism ever seen on pb. You didn't just play the man not the ball, you ran off the pitch, out of the stadium, down the road and into your wee home and headbutted the man who was talking on the TV.

Can I just say that was a brilliant response. ;-)

Fools are easy pleased

Well, you seem easily pleased with anything that Salmond says.

Only in your stupid mind.

Scott_P

Uh, oh. Another bullying statement telling Cybernats to 'calm down dear'

The First Minister said the internet allows people to use the type of language which would never be repeated in public.

He said everyone has a duty between now and Sept 18 to ensure the independence debate is "worthy of the importance of the decisions which are being made".

The impassioned plea marked the First Minister’s most candid comments to date about a problem which has blighted the independence campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10664236/Alex-Salmond-urges-Cybernats-to-come-in-from-the-cold.html

JosiasJessop

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

NickPalmer

GeoffM is right that saying don't know to this is a bit odd, but presumably reflects the quarter of the electorate who just don't think about politics at all. Ever. Except maybe on election day, and probably not then. To them, the question is as baffling as we might feel if we were asked if we liked Dnepropetrovsk more or less than Smolensk. They are largely, I'd suggest, non-voters.

On Standard Life, this is all good practice for any Euro-referendum. Exactly the same thing would happen there (as it did last time round in 1975). Eurosceptics should study malcolmg and practice saying "Piss off to Germany, Honda".

Mick_Pork

Operation 'save the fop chicken from his own backbenchers' looks set to dominate the news today. Small wonder PB tories want to talk about anything other than that.

Kate Connolly ‏@connollyberlin 4m

Europe's empress heads to UK for buttering up visit which culminates in taking tea with the Queen http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/26/david-cameron-angela-merkel-trap-of-his-own-devising …

malcolmg

rcs1000 said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Yeah, damn those Ukranians for wanting democracy

They voted democratically , which you seem to have missed. Then the UK/US backed agitators organised a coup and deposed the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government. You been sleeping for the last month or so. Did you see them pick their democratic government last night, a few crooks up on a stage electing their pals to share their dictatorship. LOL I assume you mean UK idea of democracy rather than real democracy.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. G, Yanukovych[sp] did win a democratic election about 52-48. He then imprisoned a rival and transferred more power to himself from Parliament, effectively ending the 2004 constitution which came about due to the Orange Revolution (I think it was called). Not quite so black and white as you suggest, although it's worth mentioning a huge number of Ukrainians are pro-Russia. A split might be the best thing that could happen.

malcolmg

Scott_P said:

Uh, oh. Another bullying statement telling Cybernats to 'calm down dear'

The First Minister said the internet allows people to use the type of language which would never be repeated in public.

He said everyone has a duty between now and Sept 18 to ensure the independence debate is "worthy of the importance of the decisions which are being made".

The impassioned plea marked the First Minister’s most candid comments to date about a problem which has blighted the independence campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10664236/Alex-Salmond-urges-Cybernats-to-come-in-from-the-cold.html

Is that like Jim Murphy in Westminster, sure we will see the press highlight his foul tirade.

Scott_P

Mr Nish said "we believe a number of material issues remain uncertain", including:

The currency that an independent Scotland would use

Whether agreement and ratification of an independent Scotland’s membership to the European Union would be achieved by the target date (currently 24 March 2016)

The shape and role of the monetary system

The arrangements for financial services regulation and consumer protection in an independent Scotland

The approach to individual taxation

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-02-27/standard-life-scottish-independence/

Has he not read the White Paper? All of these questions are completely and unambiguously answered beyond all possible doubt.

Oh, wait...

Mick_Pork

Has little Ed finally made his mind up over an EU referendum?

Steve Collins ‏@TradeDesk_Steve 17h

Brexit - Ed Miliband planning to offer a referendum on the UK's EU membership if Labour wins the election. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4016359.ece …

Planning you say? That sounds Cast Iron. Perish the thought that he might be posturing too.

LOL

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

You dumb unionists would love it , but unlike Westminster he will be for real democracy , not UK/US puppet governments.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Pork, whilst the language seems a little weak I'm not sure that's relevant. Labour had a straightforward referendum promise in 2005, then promptly reneged upon it (cf not raising income tax and not introducing top-up fees).

Scott_P

Standard Life's announcement today will resonate for two reasons: Firstly, it's a huge employer in Scotland, with 5,000 staff based there, they will now be concerned for the futures of their jobs. But more than that, it's a hugely significant blow to the pro-independence "Yes" campaign.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-02-27/standard-life-scottish-independence/

It will be a comfort to those 5,000 workers that Malcolm says they don't exist...

malcolmg

Scott_P said:

Uh, oh. Another bullying statement telling Cybernats to 'calm down dear'

The First Minister said the internet allows people to use the type of language which would never be repeated in public.

He said everyone has a duty between now and Sept 18 to ensure the independence debate is "worthy of the importance of the decisions which are being made".

The impassioned plea marked the First Minister’s most candid comments to date about a problem which has blighted the independence campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10664236/Alex-Salmond-urges-Cybernats-to-come-in-from-the-cold.html

Scott, I believe if you read the real story he would be appealing to both sides, ie unionist donkeys like yourself.

rcs1000

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

I think malcolmg is worried that the EU and Canada and Washington and the global illuminati and the freemasons and the banksters would conspire to arrange a coup d'etat in an independent Scotland.

JonnyJimmy

The entire 36 page "Assessment of key currency options" annex to the Bloo Paper contains only this single half-line of possible downside to formal currency union with the UK:

"Negotiated with UK Government".

The rest is about 20 pages of why a formal currency union would be best for Scotland, and a few pages on why the other options wouldn't be so good for Scotland.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00414366.pdf

Scott_P

@bbclaurak: Standard Life intervention v difficult for Salmond - their statement is calm outlining of uncertainties around currency and regulation

foxinsoxuk

The Kyiv protesters include the Right Sector, a interesting mix of UKIP like europhobia but with additional elements of far right extremism including anti semitism and anti Russian sentiment. A sort of Ukranian Golden Dawn. Given the choice even Putin looks good.

I was surprised that per capita GDP in Ukraine is only $4 000 per year relative to Russia $17 000; 15 years ago they were much the same. I can see why the Donbass and Crimea see the future as better together.

rcs1000 said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Yeah, damn those Ukranians for wanting democracy

Fat_Steve

Mick_Pork said:

Operation 'save the fop chicken from his own backbenchers' looks set to dominate the news today. Small wonder PB tories want to talk about anything other than that.

You seem eager to conflate 2 issues - Sottish currency options, and David Cameron's European Policy. But they're separate issues aren't they?
Now what about Standard Life? Are you happy to be rid of them and their jobs?
Can you demonstrate that it is in their interests to stay in Scotland, with a currency arrangement as yet undetermined?

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

Josias, it was nothing to do with a few visas, the agitation has been going on for a while and we know who have form in those areas. They will be bricking it now, their meddling has just finished Ukraine as a country.

Mick_Pork

What a surprise.

John Gillibrand ‏@John_Gillibrand 2m

Chair of Standard Life is lead non-executive at Ministry of Defence-he probably wants to keep #Trident as well #indyref @theSNP @ScottishCND

rcs1000

malcolmg said:

rcs1000 said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Yeah, damn those Ukranians for wanting democracy

They voted democratically , which you seem to have missed. Then the UK/US backed agitators organised a coup and deposed the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government. You been sleeping for the last month or so. Did you see them pick their democratic government last night, a few crooks up on a stage electing their pals to share their dictatorship. LOL I assume you mean UK idea of democracy rather than real democracy.

Isn't the problem that the Ukraine is like the UK, with a Western half that wants to align itself with Europe and an Eastern half that sees its as Russian.

Like with the UK, if the people want it, surely an amicable split would be the best way for everybody to be happy.

SouthamObserver

TOPPING said:

SouthamObserver said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.

They can't have a formal currency union, their Plan B is both vague and laughable, no wonder finance companies are anxious.

They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Where the Nats are getting it wrong (how long have you got...) is to say this element will be fine (it won't) or that one will be (it won't either).

They should say look, it's going to be a bumpy ride. We are setting out for independence and we are doing this because it is our destiny. Not everyone will come with us but I promise you we will govern for all Scots and all of those issues will be sorted out in the years to come; we will have our own currency and institutions and society in good time.

Our children will come to inherit a prosperous, confident independent country and they will thank us for that.

Yes, that would be the honest approach. But the SNP leadership - as distinct from other parts of the Yes camp - do not trust Scottish voters with the truth. Instead, their independence pitch is all about a painless path to the land of milk and honey. That's why the only response to today's news, as it has been with both the currency and EU membership issues generally, will be obfuscation, denial and abuse.

Mick_Pork

SeanT said:

NickPalmer said:

GeoffM is right that saying don't know to this is a bit odd, but presumably reflects the quarter of the electorate who just don't think about politics at all. Ever. Except maybe on election day, and probably not then. To them, the question is as baffling as we might feel if we were asked if we liked Dnepropetrovsk more or less than Smolensk. They are largely, I'd suggest, non-voters.

On Standard Life, this is all good practice for any Euro-referendum. Exactly the same thing would happen there (as it did last time round in 1975). Eurosceptics should study malcolmg and practice saying "Piss off to Germany, Honda".

We would definitely see similar threats in an EU referendum. The question is whether they would be quite as effective

*tears of laughter etc.*

Scott_P

SouthamObserver said:

That's why the only response to today's news, as it has been with both the currency and EU membership issues generally, will be obfuscation, denial and abuse.

We have already had all 3 on this thread alone

Theuniondivvie

SouthamObserver said:

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Isn't your *consistent* position that there *will* be a currency union if there's a Yes vote? Not sure why your hypothesising other scenarios.

Perhaps the PB Einsteins who scamper from scenario to scenario declaiming that they'll all be really bad for the Yes campaign might consider the politics of it all (not their strongest area I admit). Salmond is holding to the position that a currency union is the best option and that he expects WM to accept that if there's a Yes vote, but isn't ruling out other options. Just imagine the shrieking if he'd rolled over at the first onslaught by the killer blancmanges of Osballs & Alexander, and committed to plan B, C or Y before Standard came out with their announcement? Burst eardrums all over the shop.

Mick_Pork

SouthamObserver said:

But the SNP leadership - as distinct from other parts of the Yes camp - do not trust Scottish voters with the truth.

Not something that would bother 'shy' yellow tories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYMN7l_wo5U

malcolmg

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

I think malcolmg is worried that the EU and Canada and Washington and the global illuminati and the freemasons and the banksters would conspire to arrange a coup d'etat in an independent Scotland.

I see you avoid reality, you think the current puppet government in Ukraine is democracy. They organised a coup and overthrew the democratically elected government. A sham. The Russians will sort it out , they know how to protect Russian citizens. The bullies will be back pedalling very soon, will the cowardy custard gang threaten sanctions on Russia, I think not.

[Deleted User]

Salmond seems to have not really fully thought through what independence (something to be negotiated with a rUK he's just told to F Off) would actually mean in several areas:

1. Currency
2. EU membership
3. Impact on the finance industry
4. Impact on defence jobs (esp nuclear related)
5. State pension funding arrangements
6. Ability to support the oil and gas industry with investment credits
7. etc

He's not that great a politican then is he? He's great at the 'retail' side and messaging - but when it comes to detailed policy and actual hard credible plans he's the Wizard of Oz. The NO campaign is cruising it in terms of putting very real fears into the minds of the undecided and Eck has no answers because, well, he has no answers.

malcolmg

Mick_Pork said:

What a surprise.

John Gillibrand ‏@John_Gillibrand 2m

Chair of Standard Life is lead non-executive at Ministry of Defence-he probably wants to keep #Trident as well #indyref @theSNP @ScottishCND

A puppet of the regime, another just like the fat windbag Soames who was spouting crap last night as well. All the arse lickers are having favours called in.

JosiasJessop

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

You dumb unionists would love it , but unlike Westminster he will be for real democracy , not UK/US puppet governments.

So far you have called me dumb and a fool, and have accused me of having a 'stupid mind'.

You appear to have lost the argument.

As for the UK.US puppet governments line, I'm amazed you neglect the EU's role in this. Indeed, I think it's time to roll out this link again; you may find it useful:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2049858_make-tinfoil-hat.html

dr_spyn

Roast Salmond.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26362321

If he had been a senior bod at RBS, surely he would have know what contingency planning was all about. Scots universities and Business Schools must offer strategic planning MBA courses.

foxinsoxuk

There are a couple of other Scottish based companies in the FTSE (I have shares in Aggreko and Weir) both engineering companies that earn most of their profits overseas. Would they have similar issues as Standard Life? Factories are harder to move than headquarters, but any thoughts on how a Yes vote would affect them? I would have thought that hedging against currency risk with an independent petrocurrency Scottish pound would be an unnessecary headache and cost.

SouthamObserver said:

TOPPING said:

SouthamObserver said:

SeanT said:

Re Standard Life, again it's the currency which is killing the Nats, despite this being a "trivial" issue of no interest to most voters, or so we are told.


They need a Plan C. And it needs to be watertight.

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Where the Nats are getting it wrong (how long have you got...) is to say this element will be fine (it won't) or that one will be (it won't either).

They should say look, it's going to be a bumpy ride. We are setting out for independence and we are doing this because it is our destiny. Not everyone will come with us but I promise you we will govern for all Scots and all of those issues will be sorted out in the years to come; we will have our own currency and institutions and society in good time.

Our children will come to inherit a prosperous, confident independent country and they will thank us for that.

Yes, that would be the honest approach. But the SNP leadership - as distinct from other parts of the Yes camp - do not trust Scottish voters with the truth. Instead, their independence pitch is all about a painless path to the land of milk and honey. That's why the only response to today's news, as it has been with both the currency and EU membership issues generally, will be obfuscation, denial and abuse.

JosiasJessop

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

Josias, it was nothing to do with a few visas, the agitation has been going on for a while and we know who have form in those areas. They will be bricking it now, their meddling has just finished Ukraine as a country.

Evidence, please.

Everything I see shows the EU as having been the main culprit, even if their reasons for interfering were more or less honourable.

malcolmg

rcs1000 said:

malcolmg said:

rcs1000 said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Yeah, damn those Ukranians for wanting democracy

They voted democratically , which you seem to have missed. Then the UK/US backed agitators organised a coup and deposed the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government. You been sleeping for the last month or so. Did you see them pick their democratic government last night, a few crooks up on a stage electing their pals to share their dictatorship. LOL I assume you mean UK idea of democracy rather than real democracy.

Isn't the problem that the Ukraine is like the UK, with a Western half that wants to align itself with Europe and an Eastern half that sees its as Russian.

Like with the UK, if the people want it, surely an amicable split would be the best way for everybody to be happy.

So the UK help with a coup to make that happen NOT. They should know by now that interfering in these areas is well beyond their capabilities.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. G, not so simple, though. A bit like when Morsi was forced out. Yes, he won a democratic (and fair) election, but he then acted as if he had 99% backing and abused his authority. Winning an election doesn't give you the right to act like a tyrant.

Yanukovych gerrymandered the constitution to give more power to himself. However, he also had strong, genuine support in much of the country.

An amicable split might be the best way forward. No idea if that's unrealistic, though.

Mick_Pork

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Pork, whilst the language seems a little weak I'm not sure that's relevant. Labour had a straightforward referendum promise in 2005, then promptly reneged upon it

You mean like Cameron and Lisbon? Though to be fair it's calamity Clegg and his ostrich faction of spinners who are going to have to deal with referendum pledges when Farage makes a massive song and dance over this during the EU debate.

Roger Da Costa ‏@rog_ukip Feb 25

Remember when Clegg promised a referendum on the EU. But just like student fees, he broke his promise. pic.twitter.com/eq1ytBSjZ9

You can bet Farage will have that printed out and ready to brandish on TV as Clegg squirms.

Max_Edinburgh

malcolmg said:

Alanbrooke said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

Standard Life need a LOLR to operate which is why I have been predicting for at least a month that if there was no currency union they would need to move south.

Yesterday the Telegraph reported that there would be no common regulators with Scotland either in the event of independence (there is something about the word "independence" that Nats seem to find hard to come to terms with). This it the greatest threat of all.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10663865/Andrew-Bailey-pours-doubt-on-Salmonds-plans-for-shared-financial-regulator.html

As Charles and others have pointed out Edinburgh's greatest strength and source of wealth is its asset management operations which invest £10bns of mainly foreign (largely English) money. I agree with them that these have the critical mass to resist the siren calls of London but only if they have a credible regulatory set up that makes their clients comfortable and allows them the passports to trade internationally.

By still trying to pretend that Plan A has not gone the way of the dodo the SNP government is not even thinking about how to address this. The consequences for the substantial Scottish finance industry risks being severe. Standard Life is just the start.

We will see the shit poor businesses leaving so what , Standard Life are crap, we will be well shot of them.

So where are you going to get 5,000 jobs from ? They can't all be SNP spin doctors.

You seriously think they have 5000 working in Edinburgh, dream on. A bunch of two bit hustlers.

Yes. I think most people are aware that they are a very large, and very important, employer in Edinburgh. I know a number of people who work for them and 5,000 is about right.

malcolmg

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

You dumb unionists would love it , but unlike Westminster he will be for real democracy , not UK/US puppet governments.

So far you have called me dumb and a fool, and have accused me of having a 'stupid mind'.

You appear to have lost the argument.

As for the UK.US puppet governments line, I'm amazed you neglect the EU's role in this. Indeed, I think it's time to roll out this link again; you may find it useful:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2049858_make-tinfoil-hat.html

Josias, if the cap fits ............I am sure you have it on your head

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Pork, Cameron voted for a referendum.

Mick_Pork

Massive blow to Spanish Nationalists etc.

iamloddy ||\*/|| ‏@iamloddy 9h

'France is not hostile to Catalan independence' : http://ift.tt/1o70NZf

rcs1000

Just on corporation tax and Scottish independence, it's worth noting that pretty much every UK business with substantial Scottish sales and/or operations would need to set up a Scottish company to own assets there.

So Tesco Group PLC would need to own Tesco Stores (Scotland) Ltd which would own operations in a newly independent Scotland. This corporate would, of course, be subject to Scottish corporation tax.

JosiasJessop

foxinsoxuk said:

There are a couple of other Scottish based companies in the FTSE (I have shares in Aggreko and Weir) both engineering companies that earn most of their profits overseas. Would they have similar issues as Standard Life? Factories are harder to move than headquarters, but any thoughts on how a Yes vote would affect them? I would have thought that hedging against currency risk with an independent petrocurrency Scottish pound would be an unnessecary headache and cost.

Aggrreko's boss has already spoken out:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-26/aggreko-chief-warns-on-currency-costs-if-scotland-leaves-u-k-.html

Weir spoke out two years ago
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/29/scottish-independence-weir-group

and are apparently making a report into independence:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-business-giant-plans-report-1-3321780

It will be a very interesting report, whichever way it leans.

SimonStClare

@SO - That's why the only response to today's news, as it has been with both the currency and EU membership issues generally, will be obfuscation, denial and abuse.

I think we've seen all three this morning - and an entire scurry of squirrels is not far behind.

JosiasJessop

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

malcolmg said:

JosiasJessop said:

Off-topic:

Radio 4 just had a news segment from the Russian foreign ministry that sounded ominous. It sounded (and I may have misheard) that they are willing to protect Russian compatriots.

And gunmen have seized the regional parliament in the Crimea.

Ominous.

That is what happens when Washington and Westminster organise coup's in Russia's backyard. Be fun when Russia saves its people by annexing Crimea and those guarantors of Ukraine's borders ( UK and USA ) have to wimp out of tackling the Russians. They will not be quite as gung ho as usual, won't be so quick to ruck with eth big boys.

Moscow seems to be blaming the EU rather than the UK and USA. After all, the EU applied the most pressure, threatening to target Ukrainian government officials with visa bans and asset freezes. Strangely, you fail to mention Canada, which also, by your measure 'organised the coup' by restricting visas.

Given all that, it would be interesting if Salmond was to back Russia over the EU ...

You dumb unionists would love it , but unlike Westminster he will be for real democracy , not UK/US puppet governments.

So far you have called me dumb and a fool, and have accused me of having a 'stupid mind'.

You appear to have lost the argument.

As for the UK.US puppet governments line, I'm amazed you neglect the EU's role in this. Indeed, I think it's time to roll out this link again; you may find it useful:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2049858_make-tinfoil-hat.html

Josias, if the cap fits ............I am sure you have it on your head

(fx: ruffles hair)
Nope, no hat on my head. A slightly balding patch on the crown, but no hat.

DavidL

From the Herald:

"Standard Life is the UK's biggest provider of defined contribution pensions and self-invested pension plans, and has around £240bn of assets under management. It has 5,000 Scottish-based employees and 1.5 million shareholders."

So Alan is pretty much spot on. Malcolm...not so much.

Mick_Pork

Theuniondivvie said:

SouthamObserver said:

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Isn't your *consistent* position that there *will* be a currency union if there's a Yes vote? Not sure why your hypothesising other scenarios.

Perhaps the PB Einsteins who scamper from scenario to scenario declaiming that they'll all be really bad for the Yes campaign might consider the politics of it all (not their strongest area I admit). Salmond is holding to the position that a currency union is the best option and that he expects WM to accept that if there's a Yes vote, but isn't ruling out other options. Just imagine the shrieking if he'd rolled over at the first onslaught by the killer blancmanges of Osballs & Alexander, and committed to plan B, C or Y before Standard came out with their announcement? Burst eardrums all over the shop.

Always keep in mind we are dealing with the same 'geniuses' who think just because Osbrowne and Cammie assert something must mean it is true. Doesn't matter how many times their posturing has proved to be complete crap already, they have to keep believing it.

SouthamObserver

Theuniondivvie said:

SouthamObserver said:

There is no response the SNP leadership will be able to provide except that Standard Life is bluffing and/or to accuse it and its leadership of colluding with the Tories. They'll be a fair bit of personal abuse from some SNP supporters too.

The basic problem for the SNP is that there is no currency scenario - including any credible currency union - that will allow public money to be spent in an independent Scotland at the levels it is currently spent. Thus, the SNP leadership cannot get into any kind of debate about what will happen after a Yes. Instead, they have to maintain the pretence that everything will just be OK because it just will be in the hope that enough voters will believe this for long enough to win in September. The reality can then be dealt with in the knowledge that there will be no going back. For nationalists symbolic independence is the be all and end all; how it actually effects every day lives is of secondary importance.

Isn't your *consistent* position that there *will* be a currency union if there's a Yes vote? Not sure why your hypothesising other scenarios.

Perhaps the PB Einsteins who scamper from scenario to scenario declaiming that they'll all be really bad for the Yes campaign might consider the politics of it all (not their strongest area I admit). Salmond is holding to the position that a currency union is the best option and that he expects WM to accept that if there's a Yes vote, but isn't ruling out other options. Just imagine the shrieking if he'd rolled over at the first onslaught by the killer blancmanges of Osballs & Alexander, and committed to plan B, C or Y before Standard came out with their announcement? Burst eardrums all over the shop.

Yes, I believe there would be a currency union. It would be on terms dictated by the rUK and would include detailed provisions on the money the Scottish government could raise in taxation, borrow in the markets and spend; as well as binding, irrevocable clauses on how the union could be dissolved. The net effect would be that Scotland's fiscal and monetary policy would be run from London and implemented in Edinburgh. This is why the SNP leadership has failed to detail how a currency union would work and why other members of the Yes camp are clear that a separate currency for Scotland is the best option, despite the inevitable short to medium term hardship for ordinary Scots this will bring. It's the honest approach.