Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Why we are unikely to see a 1992 redux – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited March 12 in General
Why we are unikely to see a 1992 redux – politicalbetting.com

And here’s what Neil Kinnock himself recently told me: “If he lives for a million years, Rishi Sunak is never going to be John Major.” https://t.co/S2dvx6AmK9

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,182
    First like England.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772
    I generally agree with the threader; but if Kinnock said that, then I expect Sunak to marry someone called Norma and feel a sudden fondness for both soapboxes and Edwina Currie... ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772
    tlg86 said:

    First like England.

    But my post actually had content. ;)

    Not good content, perhaps, but content...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,193
    edited February 26
    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,045
    tlg86 said:

    First like England.

    England are not going to come first in the cricket unless a freak tornado hits the ground.
  • James Cleverly: Deepfakes pose ‘perfect’ threat to next election
    The home secretary warns that malign actors will use the technology to hijacking elections

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/james-cleverly-deepfakes-threat-next-general-election-bwmjcdfpm (£££)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,045

    James Cleverly: Deepfakes pose ‘perfect’ threat to next election
    The home secretary warns that malign actors will use the technology to hijacking elections

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/james-cleverly-deepfakes-threat-next-general-election-bwmjcdfpm (£££)

    Well, Kinnock’s analysis is that Sunak is deeply fake…
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169
    There's something remarkably bitter about Neil Kinnock.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn
  • 200 staff employed on full pay for Government rail body… that doesn’t exist
    Great British Railways tells i that staff working on other issues surrounding rail as project progress stalls

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/staff-full-pay-government-rail-doesnt-exist-2922221 (£££)
  • Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    Was it the i that had CCHQ whistling in the dark about soft Labour leads the other day? I can't find the story now.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,193

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    Was it the i that had CCHQ whistling in the dark about soft Labour leads the other day? I can't find the story now.
    I think it was
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    Koch network stops spending on Nikki Haley’s presidential campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/25/koch-afp-nikki-haley-00143212
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169
    FPT - it's not just housing. It's remarkably difficult to get anything built or done here, including airports, strategic roads, railways or power stations.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 116
    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,045

    FPT - it's not just housing. It's remarkably difficult to get anything built or done here, including airports, strategic roads, railways or power stations.

    This morning:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68396567

    So we're going to get effectively a few pennies of money that doesn't exist, spent on projects that are frequently not transport and anyway haven't been approved, in areas that are not London, to appease people who won't vote for Sunak.

    I'm agreeing with Cleverly about the threat from people who are deeply fake...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    It serves all media, all political parties and all political pollsters to talk up a close race, and it may even be true, but I think not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,045
    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Norman Lamont?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,041
    ydoethur said:

    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Norman Lamont?
    A towering titan, in comparison
  • Probably posted last week but here is Yes, Prime Minister on nuclear missiles not working:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mpaemn0SrM
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 194

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    Local government dictates all the features of where the vast majority live their lives, and the tories have ruined it.🤷
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169
    ydoethur said:

    FPT - it's not just housing. It's remarkably difficult to get anything built or done here, including airports, strategic roads, railways or power stations.

    This morning:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68396567

    So we're going to get effectively a few pennies of money that doesn't exist, spent on projects that are frequently not transport and anyway haven't been approved, in areas that are not London, to appease people who won't vote for Sunak.

    I'm agreeing with Cleverly about the threat from people who are deeply fake...
    We all know the money has just gone back to the Treasury.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388

    Probably posted last week but here is Yes, Prime Minister on nuclear missiles not working:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mpaemn0SrM

    The consoling thing is that the Russian rockets are probably in an even worse state...
  • Foxy said:

    Probably posted last week but here is Yes, Prime Minister on nuclear missiles not working:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mpaemn0SrM

    The consoling thing is that the Russian rockets are probably in an even worse state...
    If the SMO has taught us anything it is that Russia knows how to build rockets. Whether their nuclear warheads have been properly maintained is in doubt but it is probably best not to find out. Even a 90 per cent failure rate means the other 10 per cent can obliterate life in Milton Keynes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,041

    FPT - it's not just housing. It's remarkably difficult to get anything built or done here, including airports, strategic roads, railways or power stations.

    If you gave everyone in a 1 mile radius of your project £1000, it would be cheaper than the bullshit that goes on. But, I’m told that would be illegal.

    When various plans for Hammersmith bridge were being held up by a small number of objectors, I asked - “Why not just buy the properties? Offer twice the market rate. Cash down, 60 minutes to decide.”
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    Both main parties seem like warm at best about local government. Labour would find them more but are just as controlling. We have an unfortunate tradition here of not
    trusting local communities to make their own decisions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,213
    edited February 26
    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Hilarious that some are still desperately trying to pin Rishi and Hunt's complete failure on the likes of Mogg and Truss. Desperate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,977
    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,213
    edited February 26

    Foxy said:

    Probably posted last week but here is Yes, Prime Minister on nuclear missiles not working:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mpaemn0SrM

    The consoling thing is that the Russian rockets are probably in an even worse state...
    If the SMO has taught us anything it is that Russia knows how to build rockets. Whether their nuclear warheads have been properly maintained is in doubt but it is probably best not to find out. Even a 90 per cent failure rate means the other 10 per cent can obliterate life in Milton Keynes.
    I knew there was existence in Milton Keynes but is it life?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,054

    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Hilarious that some are still desperately trying to pin Rishi and Hunt's complete failure on the likes of Mogg and Truss. Desperate.
    Surely the message is that the Tories just need to replace Sunak with somebody likeable - such as Liz Truss?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,977
    Trump has so far failed to come up with bonds for each of his outstanding judgments. Although not obliged to the NY Attorney General has given him 30 days which expires on 25th March, the same day as he is due to start a criminal trial. Trump is, as usual, asking for more time and less bond from the appeal courts but has so far failed to achieve either. The NYT examines his options: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/24/nyregion/trump-fraud-trial-penalty.html?unlocked_article_code=1.YE0.Hzov.tbdL0sWfpBJa&smid=url-share

    TLDR: they aren't great. The collapse of his business empire is a real possibility with all the implications that might have for his candidacy.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,054
    edited February 26
    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,977

    Foxy said:

    Probably posted last week but here is Yes, Prime Minister on nuclear missiles not working:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mpaemn0SrM

    The consoling thing is that the Russian rockets are probably in an even worse state...
    If the SMO has taught us anything it is that Russia knows how to build rockets. Whether their nuclear warheads have been properly maintained is in doubt but it is probably best not to find out. Even a 90 per cent failure rate means the other 10 per cent can obliterate life in Milton Keynes.
    I knew there was existence in Milton Keynes but is it life?
    It is Jim, but not as we know it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,147
    edited February 26
    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    That chant of Allez, Allez, Allez in extra time will live me for ever.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,977

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    That chant of Allez, Allez, Allez in extra time will live me for ever.


    It was remarkable, after all you don't win anything with kids.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,639
    edited February 26

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,213
    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    Good grief.
  • dixiedean said:
    First day back after half term?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,443

    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Hilarious that some are still desperately trying to pin Rishi and Hunt's complete failure on the likes of Mogg and Truss. Desperate.
    I think there’s more than enough failure to go around all of them.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,640
    Labours stance on Gaza has been a lot more risky than the Tories continued Islamophobia. Very few Muslims vote Tory so in terms of electoral fallout to their own vote share it’s likely to be low .

    The one thing it does though is to help Labour . The Muslim population might not like Labours stance but have been reminded of the alternative .

    It also looks very hypocritical of the Tories and their media arse lickers. It’s clear that the Tory party have decided that fermenting division and hate is going to be part of their electoral strategy .
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309
    Early morning start for me, up at 5.30 to get down to the vineyard for a 7.30 start with our Nepalese pruning crew (Nepal isn’t known for its viticulture of course, but the experts - the Romanians - are in short supply and this lot are I think retired Gurkhas).

    In the damp morning gloaming I kicked off by demonstrating how I wanted the various different vines pruned. And proceeded to select the wrong cane at the base of one and cut off the main trunk in front of the whole crew. Oops.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,147
    edited February 26

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    Because we never got on the manager's back when he didn't win any trophies in his first few seasons, or when we lost six home games in a row, we don't get on the club's back for not spending £115 million on midfielders. we back Klopp's judgment when picking kids.

    And as Klopp says the support we give the team from stands is amazing.

    There's a reason why we pulled off the greatest comeback since Lazarus when we came back from 3 nil to knock out Barca in 2019.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
    It's not just local government.
    Every department except Health, Defence and Overseas Aid is unprotected, so cuts across the board are baked into his spending plans.

    Tax cuts before the election in an attempt to mitigate Conservative losses - and an unholy fiscal mess afterwards for the incoming government.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772
    TimS said:

    Early morning start for me, up at 5.30 to get down to the vineyard for a 7.30 start with our Nepalese pruning crew (Nepal isn’t known for its viticulture of course, but the experts - the Romanians - are in short supply and this lot are I think retired Gurkhas).

    In the damp morning gloaming I kicked off by demonstrating how I wanted the various different vines pruned. And proceeded to select the wrong cane at the base of one and cut off the main trunk in front of the whole crew. Oops.

    That's embarassing.

    Yonks ago, a friend of mine went on a mountain leadership course in Scotland. They were well above the snowline (I think in the Cairngorms), and the teacher was a well-known British mountaineer.

    They stood around in the snow and ice as he described how to use an ice axe. He then did a demonstration. Except one of his crampons had bitten to deeply into the ice, and he jumped, his lower leg remained in place, shattering his knee. He lay on the snow and (apparently calmly) said something like: "if you remember the lesson we did on emergencies, I'd appreciate if one you could call mountain rescue..."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,803
    Parody Rishi Sunak
    @Parody_PM
    ·
    12h
    Tory MPs are worried that suspending Lee Anderson might lose us support in the all-important 'thick racist bastard' demographic.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,054

    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    Good grief.
    God forbid anything should detract from your fixation that he's unpopular just because he's not Liz Truss.
  • DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772
    nico679 said:

    Labours stance on Gaza has been a lot more risky than the Tories continued Islamophobia. Very few Muslims vote Tory so in terms of electoral fallout to their own vote share it’s likely to be low .

    The one thing it does though is to help Labour . The Muslim population might not like Labours stance but have been reminded of the alternative .

    It also looks very hypocritical of the Tories and their media arse lickers. It’s clear that the Tory party have decided that fermenting division and hate is going to be part of their electoral strategy .

    A major difference between Labour's anti-Semitism under Corbyn (which still bubbles under the surface) and The Conservatives Islamaphobia, is that there are far more Muslims in this country (and hence voters) than Jews.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,002

    Parody Rishi Sunak
    @Parody_PM
    ·
    12h
    Tory MPs are worried that suspending Lee Anderson might lose us support in the all-important 'thick racist bastard' demographic.

    More than a grain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Hilarious that some are still desperately trying to pin Rishi and Hunt's complete failure on the likes of Mogg and Truss. Desperate.
    Are they - or are they just implying that things would be even worse were she still PM ?

    Mogg is merely thrown is as an example of the utter dross that has been able to find its way into the cabinet.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,977
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
    It's not just local government.
    Every department except Health, Defence and Overseas Aid is unprotected, so cuts across the board are baked into his spending plans.

    Tax cuts before the election in an attempt to mitigate Conservative losses - and an unholy fiscal mess afterwards for the incoming government.
    Well, we shall see. So far, I would say that Hunt has been much more of a grown up than that. This is going to be his final legacy after a good and serious career of public service. I don't think that he will do anything ridiculous.
  • nico679 said:

    Labours stance on Gaza has been a lot more risky than the Tories continued Islamophobia. Very few Muslims vote Tory so in terms of electoral fallout to their own vote share it’s likely to be low .

    The one thing it does though is to help Labour . The Muslim population might not like Labours stance but have been reminded of the alternative .

    It also looks very hypocritical of the Tories and their media arse lickers. It’s clear that the Tory party have decided that fermenting division and hate is going to be part of their electoral strategy .

    A major difference between Labour's anti-Semitism under Corbyn (which still bubbles under the surface) and The Conservatives Islamaphobia, is that there are far more Muslims in this country (and hence voters) than Jews.
    The point both sides miss is reputational damage. If Labour was hurt in 2019 by its (real or perceived) antisemitism, it was not because only Jewish voters were repelled.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,640

    nico679 said:

    Labours stance on Gaza has been a lot more risky than the Tories continued Islamophobia. Very few Muslims vote Tory so in terms of electoral fallout to their own vote share it’s likely to be low .

    The one thing it does though is to help Labour . The Muslim population might not like Labours stance but have been reminded of the alternative .

    It also looks very hypocritical of the Tories and their media arse lickers. It’s clear that the Tory party have decided that fermenting division and hate is going to be part of their electoral strategy .

    A major difference between Labour's anti-Semitism under Corbyn (which still bubbles under the surface) and The Conservatives Islamaphobia, is that there are far more Muslims in this country (and hence voters) than Jews.
    Yes so Labour have taken a more riskier stance in terms of Gaza . If it was just about chasing Muslim votes then their response would have been different .

    Anyway after the Anderson episode the Tories just look like hypocrites.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    I really don't think that is the case. It's not as if Britain's population has become more racist as Sunaks popularity has plummeted!

    Surely there are still some bigots who wouldn't vote for a Hindu PM* but these must only be an odd percent or so, and probably cancelled out by the opposite effect amongst some British South Asians. Certainly that seems true in Leicester.

    The reasons that Sunaks government are unpopular are more straightforward. His party is incoherent and split over direction, and he personally is unable to either give it clear leadership or communication.

    * same goes for Muslim mayoral candidates too.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    It's a basic human trait to feel a strong emotional bond with things you identify with and have a clear affinity for, and you feel their highs and lows as a consequence.

    You can feel pride in friends, colleagues, extended family, community, club and country.

    There's nothing unusual about it at all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    First near term case for manufacturing in space.

    https://spacenews.com/flawless-photonics-kicking-glass/
    Silicon Valley startup Flawless Photonics has produced more than 5 kilometers of ZBLAN on the International Space Station in two weeks.

    It’s an achievement that eluded other companies that tried to produce the fluoride glass in microgravity...

    ..“The moon shot here is making undersea cables with ZBLAN,” said Michael Vestel, Flawless Photonics chief technology officer and vice president.

    ZBLAN is far more transparent than silica, the fiber-optic glass in undersea communications cables. Improved transparency translates to less signal attenuation.

    So, instead of having inline optical repeaters to boost the signal in submarine communications cables “every 40 or 50 kilometers, you could have them at distances of 10 or 100 times that,” said Vestel, who earned a PhD in materials science and engineering from the University of California, Berkeley. “Why does that matter? It turns out the power of those amplifiers consumes energy on the order of 1 percent to 1.5 percent of the entire global budget of energy.”
    ..


    With current cost into orbit, this is a potentially profitable venture quite soon.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
    It's not just local government.
    Every department except Health, Defence and Overseas Aid is unprotected, so cuts across the board are baked into his spending plans.

    Tax cuts before the election in an attempt to mitigate Conservative losses - and an unholy fiscal mess afterwards for the incoming government.
    Well, we shall see. So far, I would say that Hunt has been much more of a grown up than that. This is going to be his final legacy after a good and serious career of public service. I don't think that he will do anything ridiculous.
    I agree, though that will no doubt inflame relations with the Trussites who think unfunded tax cuts for the rich are the formula for electoral and national prosperity.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,865
    I’d write ‘Good Morning’ but it’s grey and overcast, and India have just beaten England. that result was of course to be expected!
    I quite like the suggestion for longer half terms. They have them at the school where my grandson teaches and it seems to be good for him, and his family.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,772
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    I thought about that as I wrote my comment, and I think the answer is both yes and no. I do feel some 'pride' in Britain, but it's a different sort of feeling, more nebulous, than the firm pride I feel when I accomplish something good or even remarkable. I'm unsure 'pride' is even the correct term for it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,983
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    I really don't think that is the case. It's not as if Britain's population has become more racist as Sunaks popularity has plummeted!

    Surely there are still some bigots who wouldn't vote for a Hindu PM* but these must only be an odd percent or so, and probably cancelled out by the opposite effect amongst some British South Asians. Certainly that seems true in Leicester.

    The reasons that Sunaks government are unpopular are more straightforward. His party is incoherent and split over direction, and he personally is unable to either give it clear leadership or communication.

    * same goes for Muslim mayoral candidates too.

    There is definitely an element of this: although it is small in absolute size, probably not more than 5% of the electorate, they are votes the Tories can't afford to lose. There was a definite switch of a small bloc of voters from Tory to Reform at exactly the moment Sunak became PM, I think everyone who has lived in this country for any period of time knows exactly what is going on.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    That's a nice interview with Neil Kinnock in the New Statesman.

    I've just read James O'Brien's 'How They Broke Britain', A very good read.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    kinabalu said:

    Parody Rishi Sunak
    @Parody_PM
    ·
    12h
    Tory MPs are worried that suspending Lee Anderson might lose us support in the all-important 'thick racist bastard' demographic.

    More than a grain.
    Or as a former denizen of this site has put it:

    "The Tories are making the same mistake that the posh boys around Corbyn made assuming that thick racist Anderson represents the working class as the violent pilfering Ian Lavery fulfilled their stereotypical view of of the proles."

    https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1761958555655995521?t=MeCnN0i74zN99RpmtzBMZg&s=19
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,309
    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    I really don't think that is the case. It's not as if Britain's population has become more racist as Sunaks popularity has plummeted!

    Surely there are still some bigots who wouldn't vote for a Hindu PM* but these must only be an odd percent or so, and probably cancelled out by the opposite effect amongst some British South Asians. Certainly that seems true in Leicester.

    The reasons that Sunaks government are unpopular are more straightforward. His party is incoherent and split over direction, and he personally is unable to either give it clear leadership or communication.

    * same goes for Muslim mayoral candidates too.

    If there’s prejudice affecting Sunak’s popularity I suspect it’s about his wealth rather than his ethnicity. Class being of course that favourite British go-to topic.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793
    ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
    It's not just local government.
    Every department except Health, Defence and Overseas Aid is unprotected, so cuts across the board are baked into his spending plans.

    Tax cuts before the election in an attempt to mitigate Conservative losses - and an unholy fiscal mess afterwards for the incoming government.
    Well, we shall see. So far, I would say that Hunt has been much more of a grown up than that. This is going to be his final legacy after a good and serious career of public service. I don't think that he will do anything ridiculous.
    The current fiscal plans already imply a big squeeze on departmental spending. And as yet there's no planning at all for the cuts required.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,094
    Harper getting into a mess on Radio 4 as Mishal gets to work.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,094
    Is what Anderson said racist?

    Harper: "This is dancing on pin heads"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    There wouldn't be a club without those supporters, so of course they contribute, if only in a very small way individually.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    edited February 26

    I’d write ‘Good Morning’ but it’s grey and overcast, and India have just beaten England. that result was of course to be expected!
    I quite like the suggestion for longer half terms. They have them at the school where my grandson teaches and it seems to be good for him, and his family.

    But not longer half terms mid winter surely?

    And families need a decent summer break to be able to get away all together.

    I have always thought the South African system where provinces stagger their school holidays a good method. It makes their resorts less crowded and is better for both vacationers and for their domestic tourist industry.

    Is there any need for Devon and Leics to have the same time off?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,041
    edited February 26
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Chancellor is planning further cuts to local government funding.

    UK public services will buckle under planned spending cuts, economists warn
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/uk-public-services-will-buckle-under-planned-spending-cuts-economists-warn

    Why do the Tories hate local Government? It’s deeply counterproductive as LG provides many of the services people interact with daily.
    My guess Hunt is cutting LG funding to get through the election. This creates headroom for tax cuts now while LG effects will be a little later. It's extremely short term thinking, and arguably salting the earth for the probable next government.
    It's not just local government.
    Every department except Health, Defence and Overseas Aid is unprotected, so cuts across the board are baked into his spending plans.

    Tax cuts before the election in an attempt to mitigate Conservative losses - and an unholy fiscal mess afterwards for the incoming government.
    Well, we shall see. So far, I would say that Hunt has been much more of a grown up than that. This is going to be his final legacy after a good and serious career of public service. I don't think that he will do anything ridiculous.
    I agree, though that will no doubt inflame relations with the Trussites who think unfunded tax cuts for the rich are the formula for electoral and national prosperity.
    The problem isn't really Hunt, who is just managing the books. It's that the government has no real plan for either the state or the economy.
    They're just going through the motions.

    If Labour have such plans, they are keeping them pretty quiet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Chris said:

    To be a bit serious, while Sunak doesn't do himself many favours on the likeability front, racism among the white electorate is sure to be playing some part in his unpopularity, and as someone from an Indian Hindu family, he will also be starting with a handicap as far as a significant fraction of the non-white electorate is concerned.

    I really don't think that is the case. It's not as if Britain's population has become more racist as Sunaks popularity has plummeted!

    Surely there are still some bigots who wouldn't vote for a Hindu PM* but these must only be an odd percent or so, and probably cancelled out by the opposite effect amongst some British South Asians. Certainly that seems true in Leicester.

    The reasons that Sunaks government are unpopular are more straightforward. His party is incoherent and split over direction, and he personally is unable to either give it clear leadership or communication.

    * same goes for Muslim mayoral candidates too.

    If there’s prejudice affecting Sunak’s popularity I suspect it’s about his wealth rather than his ethnicity. Class being of course that favourite British go-to topic.
    Hmm. We're Cameron, Johnson, Blair etc adversely affected by their privileged backgrounds? Or maybe it is only "old money" that we doff our caps to?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,800
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793
    Richi says Anderson's comments were "wrong", but can't explain why...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,865
    Foxy said:

    I’d write ‘Good Morning’ but it’s grey and overcast, and India have just beaten England. that result was of course to be expected!
    I quite like the suggestion for longer half terms. They have them at the school where my grandson teaches and it seems to be good for him, and his family.

    But not longer half terms mid winter surely?

    And families need a decent summer break to be able to get away all together.

    I have always thought the South African system where provinces stagger their school holidays a good method. It makes their resorts less crowded and is better for both vacationers and for their domestic tourist industry.

    Is there any need for Devon and Leics to have the same time off?
    Good point; it can be a pain when adjacent authorities have different holidays.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,800
    Foxy said:

    I’d write ‘Good Morning’ but it’s grey and overcast, and India have just beaten England. that result was of course to be expected!
    I quite like the suggestion for longer half terms. They have them at the school where my grandson teaches and it seems to be good for him, and his family.

    But not longer half terms mid winter surely?

    And families need a decent summer break to be able to get away all together.

    I have always thought the South African system where provinces stagger their school holidays a good method. It makes their resorts less crowded and is better for both vacationers and for their domestic tourist industry.

    Is there any need for Devon and Leics to have the same time off?
    Blue sky and sunshine here, started at minus 3 and beautiful.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,919

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    That chant of Allez, Allez, Allez in extra time will live me for ever.


    Did you join in with the "**** the Tories" chant? By all accounts it united the stadium.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 116

    sbjme19 said:

    There's a big difference too with 1992 and indeed 1997. There wasn't anyone in the then Cabinets who stood out as particularly divisive or incompetent. Recently we've had people like Braverman and Mogg in high offices of state, not to mention Truss as PM.

    Hilarious that some are still desperately trying to pin Rishi and Hunt's complete failure on the likes of Mogg and Truss. Desperate.
    Not at all. My post if you read it was about the contrast with previous Tory governments. The present failure of Sunak is a completely separate topic.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    nico679 said:

    Labours stance on Gaza has been a lot more risky than the Tories continued Islamophobia. Very few Muslims vote Tory so in terms of electoral fallout to their own vote share it’s likely to be low .

    The one thing it does though is to help Labour . The Muslim population might not like Labours stance but have been reminded of the alternative .

    It also looks very hypocritical of the Tories and their media arse lickers. It’s clear that the Tory party have decided that fermenting division and hate is going to be part of their electoral strategy .

    A major difference between Labour's anti-Semitism under Corbyn (which still bubbles under the surface) and The Conservatives Islamaphobia, is that there are far more Muslims in this country (and hence voters) than Jews.
    10x more but neither vote in a block so it's not likely to make much difference.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,164

    Harper getting into a mess on Radio 4 as Mishal gets to work.

    And equally struggling to explain why local councils won't get any of this extra transport money until after the Tories have been thrown out of office.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,443
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
    France retains a larger empire than Britain. Why aren’t they the last imperialist power?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
    From Newfoundland to Otago, Jamaica to Bengal, Scots were a major component of British Imperialism.

    In any case is it wrong to be proud of Scotland too?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,388

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
    France retains a larger empire than Britain. Why aren’t they the last imperialist power?
    Russia, China, Java all say say hold my beer...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,169
    FPT - I can't recall who posted it but whatever you think of Matthew Goodwin that exchange between him and Portillo on GB News was excellent.

    A must watch.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,455
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    It serves all media, all political parties and all political pollsters to talk up a close race, and it may even be true, but I think not.
    'Sunak to be PM after next GE' is 7/1 with Hills. Punters are giving him a real and significant chance, as compared with the obvious conclusion to be drawn from polling. This should have him at about 33/1.

    Oddly 33/1 is what Hills have for 'Tories to lose 1-50 seats (20/1 for 51-100 seats).

    That looks to me like a real gap in the betting markets. can this be explained?

    Personally I think Sunak's chance of being PM after the next election is about Zero, while the chance of NOM (but a Labour led government) is significant. This is on the basis that if the friendless Tories lose only 55 seats (310) they won't be allowed by the 340 others (324 approx allowing for SF and DUP) to form a government.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,203

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    I thought about that as I wrote my comment, and I think the answer is both yes and no. I do feel some 'pride' in Britain, but it's a different sort of feeling, more nebulous, than the firm pride I feel when I accomplish something good or even remarkable. I'm unsure 'pride' is even the correct term for it.
    What about feeling proud of your own child - which is surely the most common and strongest pride most people ever feel? And if you think that doesn't count, because you imagine you made some direct contribution to their achievements (though you might have been more of a hindrance then a help, and they might have achieved far more if you weren't such an idiot)- what about feeling proud of a parent, or a grandparent? Or a grandparent who died in a heroic manner before you were born?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,919
    Scott_xP said:

    Richi says Anderson's comments were "wrong", but can't explain why...

    "Lee's comments were wrong, I have a plan, the plan is working so don't let Labour take you back to square one" seemed like a jolly good answer to me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    FPT - I can't recall who posted it but whatever you think of Matthew Goodwin that exchange between him and Portillo on GB News was excellent.

    A must watch.

    Oh goodness, you've not succumbed to Fox News GBeebies?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,793

    The Tory line seems to be that Anderson would have been fine if he apologised. Yet Labour's Rochdale candidate, who said something less inflammatory than Anderson did, offered a full apology and was still thrown out. The double standards around Antisemitism and Islamophobia - or perhaps Labour's greater seriousness in dealing with its problems - are quite glaring.

    @NatashaC

    On rounds of local radio this morning, the PM

    - Says Lee Anderson's choice of words were "wrong" and "unacceptable" particularly as "tensions are running high"

    - denies that the Tory party are islamphobic

    - Says he wanted "to take the heat out of this situation"




    Richi is just hoping if they stop talking about it people will forget
  • algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    It serves all media, all political parties and all political pollsters to talk up a close race, and it may even be true, but I think not.
    'Sunak to be PM after next GE' is 7/1 with Hills. Punters are giving him a real and significant chance, as compared with the obvious conclusion to be drawn from polling. This should have him at about 33/1.

    Oddly 33/1 is what Hills have for 'Tories to lose 1-50 seats (20/1 for 51-100 seats).

    That looks to me like a real gap in the betting markets. can this be explained?

    Personally I think Sunak's chance of being PM after the next election is about Zero, while the chance of NOM (but a Labour led government) is significant. This is on the basis that if the friendless Tories lose only 55 seats (310) they won't be allowed by the 340 others (324 approx allowing for SF and DUP) to form a government.
    First guess at a theory:

    "Next PM" is a simpler bet than "number of MP lost by the Conservatives" and attracts more simpler punters getting it wrong.

    If anything, PM Sunak should be longer odds, to cover the (small but non zero) possibility that he's not the candidate.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,866
    edited February 26

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
    France retains a larger empire than Britain. Why aren’t they the last imperialist power?
    Does it? This time next week I’m off to Guadeloupe (again) and that’s just a part of France albeit overseas.

    As my wife commented watching death in paradise last night that’s not my Honoré / Deshaies there’s an empty parking space (because compared to other parts of the Caribbean everyone has a car and finding a parking space is a nightmare).
  • eekeek Posts: 24,866
    algarkirk said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Good morning.

    I’m not sure what has got into the i newspaper lately.

    The opinion polls look nothing like 1992. In the two years leading to the vote there were alternating Conservative and Labour leads, with little or nothing in double-digits for either party. Labour last managed a 10% lead a full year before the GE

    In the twelve months leading to the 1992 General Election, the reds and blues alternated opinion poll leads, with neither party having more than a single digit lead in any poll:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1992_United_Kingdom_general_election

    This time we haven’t seen a Conservative opinion poll lead of any sort since December 2021. Instead, Labour have been regularly polling double digit leads, and often above 20% with the Conservative Party’s share of the vote between 10% and 20% lower than anything in the run up to 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

    The media would love this to be a closer race than it looks like being and will print any old rubbish if it makes their wish come true.

    It serves all media, all political parties and all political pollsters to talk up a close race, and it may even be true, but I think not.
    'Sunak to be PM after next GE' is 7/1 with Hills. Punters are giving him a real and significant chance, as compared with the obvious conclusion to be drawn from polling. This should have him at about 33/1.

    Oddly 33/1 is what Hills have for 'Tories to lose 1-50 seats (20/1 for 51-100 seats).

    That looks to me like a real gap in the betting markets. can this be explained?

    Personally I think Sunak's chance of being PM after the next election is about Zero, while the chance of NOM (but a Labour led government) is significant. This is on the basis that if the friendless Tories lose only 55 seats (310) they won't be allowed by the 340 others (324 approx allowing for SF and DUP) to form a government.
    If the Tories only lose 55 seats Rishi will have performed miracles and I just can’t see him doing it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,919
    Scott_xP said:

    The Tory line seems to be that Anderson would have been fine if he apologised. Yet Labour's Rochdale candidate, who said something less inflammatory than Anderson did, offered a full apology and was still thrown out. The double standards around Antisemitism and Islamophobia - or perhaps Labour's greater seriousness in dealing with its problems - are quite glaring.

    @NatashaC

    On rounds of local radio this morning, the PM

    - Says Lee Anderson's choice of words were "wrong" and "unacceptable" particularly as "tensions are running high"

    - denies that the Tory party are islamphobic

    - Says he wanted "to take the heat out of this situation"




    Richi is just hoping if they stop talking about it people will forget
    I bet I can guess James O'Brien's first discussion topic today. 30p Leenoch?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,203
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    The last line of the thread header seems as out of hope as an England cricket team.

    Oops, knackered from yesterday watching Liverpool's under 12s beat Chelsea first team.

    Proudest I've ever been about a Liverpool.

    (Snip)
    This is something I don't understand with sport. How can you feel pride for a sporting team you support? You are not a member of the team; you do not coach or work for the club. You have contributed nothing to the victory. So how can you feel pride?
    The supporters are part of the club. In fact, supporters are the only unchanging part of the club as managers come and go and players are transferred in and out; even stadia are ephemeral now.
    They're not really part of the club though, are they? I mean, I love Williams F1 team, and I love it when they win (which has not been for many, many years, sadly). I'm even friends with someone who, until a few years back, worked for them. I feel good when they do well. But pride? No.

    You feel pride for things you contribute directly to, *your* achievements. Feeling pride for the achievements of others just makes it look as though you've got f-all to be proud of in reality.
    Could you say the same about patriotism? Is it wrong to be proud of Britain?
    F*ck Britain I am no part of the made up confection , say what you mean England the last Imperialist power.
    France retains a larger empire than Britain. Why aren’t they the last imperialist power?
    Russia, China, Java all say say hold my beer...
    Hold on, if France, Britain, Russia, China and Indonesia are imperialist powers, then why not the US? Or Canada, Australia, India, Pakistan, Brazil, Mexico, I mean you could make a long list of big countries...
This discussion has been closed.