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Let us all talk about our first time – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,916
edited March 12 in General
Let us all talk about our first time – politicalbetting.com

With the likelihood of having an election this year my mind went to think about the first general election I followed, which was 1992.

Read the full story here

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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,191
    First and an election is only really satisfactory when you can elect someone of Thatcher's status.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 30,228
    1992 had the best ever intro (on BBC). Fantastic music and graphics.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,756
    edited February 25
    1992 for me too. But I only remember it because I got the day off school as mine was a polling station, which probably attracted me to politics.

    My mum had to explain that the day off school the following year was for not quite so interesting local elections.

    In 1997, we used to have French lessons in the staff room at my junior school. There was a Lib Dem poster on the notice board which said “New Labour, same old (s)Tory.”
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,208
    edited February 25
    1966 Harold Wilson

    I was 22
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,903
    1974 for me as a 14 year old. Two in one year too!
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,962
    1997 for me. Things could only get better. Then Blair supported Bush in Iraq and it's been downhill ever since. Oh well.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,959
    First three were all rather dull.
    79 83 and 87. All super predictable really.
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,159
    We had a mock election at school, and I stood for the Ecology Party, the former name of the Green Party, a predecessor to the current Green Party of England & Wales. Given the Ecology Party name was dumped in 1985, I deduce this must have been for the 1983 election, but I have little memory of the actual election. I think I stayed up for 1992, but I don’t remember it well. 1997 was the first I have vivid memories of, as much because of the complicated love triangle among the people I was watching it with.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,015
    92 for me
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,736
    1976, Ford vs Carter.

    I was living in Atlanta.

    1983 was my first here, and I voted SDP.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,315
    Am in Picture House Central off Piccadilly. Have just had ice cream and am drinking diet cola out of a small glass. Film starts in twenty. May have wine gums if my teeth can take. Tears For Fears "Head over heels" just came on the overhead. Happiness has briefly arrived
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,736
    Sort of on topic.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1761759921752670534?t=VEKc9qJVHOgNOoc6VObQMg&s=19

    A reminder of why the 2024 election looks nothing like 1992. newstatesman.com/politics/uk-po…


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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,315
    Not saying which was my first UK election. The first one I bet on was 2012 France, followed by 2014 ScotRef, 2015 UKGE, 2016 EuRef, 2016 POTUS, 2017 UK, 2019 UK, 2020 POTUS. A couple of London Mayoral as well.
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    First one I have any memories of at all is 1979. Our house was being used as a Committee Room (big window poster and everything) for Peter Viggers, so there were lots of bits of telling slips to scribble on the back of once they had been processed. And highlighter pens? Though that may have been later.

    First proper following was 1992, which was a pleasant shock for the blue team at the time.

    But I'd been involved in a council by election on 22 November 1990. If only she had resigned 48 hours earlier, it would have been winnable. The Lib Dem Good Morning leaflet ("all this, and they still expect you to vote for them...") was pretty unanswerable.
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    pm215pm215 Posts: 1,027
    I think 1992 is the first I have some memory of, though not much -- I remember the Spitting Image sketch with Kinnock singing _Everything's Coming Up Roses_ on the episode after the election. 1997 was the first I could actually vote in. I was at university at the time and on a weird sleep schedule, so I remember going out to the polling station early in the morning and then going back to my room and going to bed...

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    eekeek Posts: 26,553
    192 because the result was a surprise. Think all the elections after that have been fairly predictable. The only one that wasn't was 2015 and even then the true picture wasn't really visible until I think about 5am...
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,736
    eek said:

    192 because the result was a surprise. Think all the elections after that have been fairly predictable. The only one that wasn't was 2015 and even then the true picture wasn't really visible until I think about 5am...

    2017 too, surely?
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,962
    VAR doing its thing again...
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,315
    edited February 25
    If we doing memory, I remember @rcs1000 worrying because HRC was doing good in the Panhandle in 2016, @Casino_Royale worrying in 2017 before Scotland provided Con MPs in the early morn, @Andy_JS earning lifetime rounds during the night of 2016 EURef...

    ...and the film is about to start. Laters, alligators.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    192 because the result was a surprise. Think all the elections after that have been fairly predictable. The only one that wasn't was 2015 and even then the true picture wasn't really visible until I think about 5am...

    2017 too, surely?
    I bet on a Hung Parliament in that election.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,760
    '79 still at school but canvassing for Roger Pincham against Peter Temple Morris. No vote.

    '83 working in Leicester East, met Peter Brunivalls in a pub along the A47. First vote, in Leominster, I lost.

    '87 voted in Camden. Sir Geoffrey Finsberg won, lost again and bigly.

    '92 in Cardiff voted for Julie Morgan (I think) Gwillym Jones won . A big shock.

    '97 my first Conservative loss since Wilson's win in 1974. Voted Julie Morgan as MP for Cardiff North. Everyone in my orbit at home and at work was elated including Tories.

    Can't remember any more.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 40,320
    1992 was the first election I was old enough to vote at (just...). My memory was of walking from halls in South Woodford with a friend to the polling station in Woodford. We'd invented a little song that we sung as we walked:

    "Who do you think you are kidding Mister Major,
    If you think the election's won
    We are the boys who will stop your little game.
    We are the boys who will make you think again.

    Then:
    Who do you think you are kidding Mister Kinnock,
    If you think the election's won
    We are the boys who will stop your little game.
    We are the boys who will make you think again.

    Then:
    Who do you think you are kidding Mister ...
    Hang on! who's the leader of the other party?
    I dunno! who cares! They don't stand a chance!

    And as we passed Churchill's statue, we sung the original.

    A very happy memory.

    (Although looking back, I've no idea why the nearest polling station from South Woodford was in Woodford? Also, we must have been the only one to pay the poll tax.)
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    79 first I followed. 87 first I voted in.
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    viewcode said:

    Am in Picture House Central off Piccadilly. Have just had ice cream and am drinking diet cola out of a small glass. Film starts in twenty. May have wine gums if my teeth can take. Tears For Fears "Head over heels" just came on the overhead. Happiness has briefly arrived

    Saw tears for fears at riverside cricket ground a few years back. They were excellent
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    If Italy had a bit more about them they’d be out of sight by now.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,617
    eek said:

    192 because the result was a surprise. Think all the elections after that have been fairly predictable. The only one that wasn't was 2015 and even then the true picture wasn't really visible until I think about 5am...

    First one in which I voted was 1959. I was a student in Sunderland, lodging in the home of a veteran Labour voter. The other student there was also a Labour voter. Normally we kept …. were kept ….. to our own area of the house but that evening the three of us were in the ‘living kitchen’ listening with increasing gloom as the results came in on the radio.
    The first one I really remember was 1951 when the prospective Young Conservatives in Southend West teased those of their classmates, including me, who weren’t of the same mind unmercifully!
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    Taz said:

    If Italy had a bit more about them they’d be out of sight by now.

    It's surprising how big a hole 1 man makes
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,406
    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,657
    Off topic: It is understandable -- and ironic -- that Biden gets little credit for low unemployment in the US, and declining inflation. "Mainstream" journalists (including Krugman) have been so negative on the US for so long that they continue to be so, even when the US economy improves.

    At the same time, journalists like Krugman avoid unpleasant questions, like the way housing costs have soared in many areas, especially where leftists have controlled policies for years. These increases have hit young families especially hard. You might not think the economy is great if, for example, you earn 20 dollars an hour (before taxes) -- and the median house in your city sells for 750K.

    (Also, Krugman and company avoid serious US problems, like those described in Eberstadt's "Men Without Work". For those unfamiliar with the book, here is brief summary: "In early 2022, more than 7 million prime-age men were neither working nor looking for work -- more than 11 percent of the prime-age manpower pool and more than three times the fraction in 1965." (p. 11, Post-Pandemic Edition)

    (Copied from previous thread.)
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,433
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    If Italy had a bit more about them they’d be out of sight by now.

    It's surprising how big a hole 1 man makes
    Are we talking about Anderson?
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,962
    Italy level with France with 10min to go and a man up. Yowzers.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,883
    1992 was the first one I was aware of, though I didn't follow it as such. I remember how glum all the teachers were at school on the Friday following.

    1997 I followed. Started up with my mother to watch the results. How we cheered when Portillo lost. Brexit did mean that my mum had a few good words to say about Blair again, but there'd been a bit of a gap in between.

    2001 I went to the count and listened to the wider results on an FM radio. The candidate I had delivered leaflets for received 571 votes, or thereabouts.

    2005 was the first UKGE I followed with PB.com for company.

    2017 I decided I didn't want to stay up for the results, but then I heard the surprising exit poll and I was hooked.

    2019 was the first GE I didn't stay up to watch the results come in. We decided that we couldn't bear it, so we drove off to the middle of nowhere, turned our phones off, went for walks, avoided the news. We managed to avoid the results until arriving home on the Sunday afternoon, and we had a much better weekend for not knowing.

    Not sure about this next one. We currently can't watch the BBC, so that would lessen the entertainment aspect considerably.
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    pm215 said:

    I think 1992 is the first I have some memory of, though not much -- I remember the Spitting Image sketch with Kinnock singing _Everything's Coming Up Roses_ on the episode after the election. 1997 was the first I could actually vote in. I was at university at the time and on a weird sleep schedule, so I remember going out to the polling station early in the morning and then going back to my room and going to bed...

    If we're doing Election Night Satire (and there's nothing better to do between the exit poll and Sunderland South declaring):

    1987: Spitting Image ending with Tomorrow Belongs To Me

    1997: Have I Got News For You with Richard Wilson getting steadily less smug as he realised that Labour would now be the butt of all the jokes.
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    eekeek Posts: 26,553
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    192 because the result was a surprise. Think all the elections after that have been fairly predictable. The only one that wasn't was 2015 and even then the true picture wasn't really visible until I think about 5am...

    2017 too, surely?
    2017 I was working abroad and was in India that week - only thing I remember is that you couldn't access Betfair there and in fact any internet was painful and expensive...
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,248
    1970 for me...and still remember vividly during the BBC election coverage when Bob McKenzie's swingometer was extended (painter doing the job on screen) as the actual swing to the Tories was much greater than had been anticipated.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982
    '79 probably. Delivered some leaflets for Malcolm Rifkind.

    '97 I was at the count when he lost the seat.
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    Crap line out from Italy. Shocking
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,223
    edited February 25
    Spread bet 1997. Long of Labour seats. Still one of my best politics bets. My worst one? GE17, did not foresee that Corbyn comeback. Big loss. Would be worsted if Trump somehow gets himself re-elected this year.

    But he won't. :smile:
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    Scott_xP said:

    '79 probably. Delivered some leaflets for Malcolm Rifkind.

    '97 I was at the count when he lost the seat.

    I remember seeing his loss in 97 on the night.
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    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 667
    @Leon I will be very happy to lose my prediction record
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733
    How did Italy manage to rush that kick?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,315
    ...
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,982

    How did Italy manage to rush that kick?

    it fell off the tee
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    Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,657
    The first election I can remember is the 1948 presidential election. I was five at the time, and my mother let me stay up late as we listened to the returns, since my father was working at the polls.

    I still remember -- or think I do --hearing the surprise in the announcer's voices as they realized that Truman was doing better than predicted.

    (BTW, there is one reason Gallup got it wrong in 1948 that has always amused me: Corner houses.

    At that time, Gallup interviewed voters in person, and their interviewers would be sent out and told to interview a family on a particular block. The interviewers often started at corner houses -- which, in the US tend to be owned by wealthier families.)
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    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 667
    Zut alors.... but I correctly predicted that the 'couldnt be arsed' French team would turn up...
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Italy are the worst team in the world lol
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733
    Scott_xP said:

    How did Italy manage to rush that kick?

    it fell off the tee
    So he had to replace it? Ah I see
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    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_torpedo_boat_Tomozuru
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Oliver Dowden trying to defend Lee Anderson has to be one of the lowest points of his political career.

    It's plainly obvious Dowden thinks it's unacceptable.
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,962
    Chelsea doing an Italy
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556

    Italy are the worst team in the world lol

    The IRFB ratings say otherwise.
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556
    Scott_xP said:

    How did Italy manage to rush that kick?

    it fell off the tee
    Italy should have won. But a gallant loser, or drawer, is still not a winner.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,090
    I'd had a few drinks, was quite nervous and fumbled it at the final hurdle.

    I was still happy to finish up at 9.30pm though and head down to the count.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,015
    How's that not a yellow for Konate ?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,090
    viewcode said:

    If we doing memory, I remember @rcs1000 worrying because HRC was doing good in the Panhandle in 2016, @Casino_Royale worrying in 2017 before Scotland provided Con MPs in the early morn, @Andy_JS earning lifetime rounds during the night of 2016 EURef...

    ...and the film is about to start. Laters, alligators.

    I shat a brick in GE2017.

    I remember GE1992 and GE1997 well, but I didn't properly campaign until GE2001.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733

    Italy are the worst team in the world lol

    American Samoa eat your heart out!
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    TimSTimS Posts: 11,405
    edited February 25
    1987 was the first I had awareness of, and I annoyed our choirmaster by wearing an SDP-Liberal Alliance badge, but 1992 was the first I properly followed.

    The first and only time I’ve felt inclined to the Conservatives, and also (perhaps not coincidentally) the only time I’m aware my father has voted Tory in a general election. Liberals and their successors for him every time otherwise.

    My mother was routinely a conservative voter (possibly even in 1997) until 2017, when she first put her cross in the Lib Dem box and hasn’t looked back. That’s the journey of many on the Europhile centre-right in the last decade.

    1992 was at its most exciting when it looked like a hung parliament and lost a bit of oomph when the Tory majority became clear. One big anachronism: the champagne party outside Conservative central office in the early hours. Imagine the howls of social media outrage these days if any party, particularly the Tories, were cracking open champagne during an election with the country only just emerging from recession.
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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,796
    edited February 25
    The scottish Eco Fedralists have quite the slogan list:

    https://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP12671

    And now 1.1% of the votes. Green splitters!

    Last night's Jedburgh and District (Scottish Borders) council by-election result:

    CON: 58.5% (+8.2)
    SNP: 17.4% (-5.7)
    LAB: 10.2% (+10.2)
    LDEM: 7.1% (+7.1)
    GRN: 5.7% (-1.4)
    EFED: 1.1% (+1.1)

    EFED: Eco Federalists

    Valid votes cast: 2,354

    Seat change:
    Conservative GAIN from SNP.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 13,309
    Afternoon all :)

    The first general election in which I could vote was 1979 but I remember taking a real interest in February 1974. We had enjoyed or endured the novelty of power cuts and a three day week - I remember doing my homework by candlelight and having to watch Midlands Today rather than London South East on Nationwide because the latter's studio was without power.

    Even then I thought the Conservative Government and the NUM two sides of the same coin or two cheeks of the same arse if you prefer. I remember getting up early on the Friday morning and watching the election programme with my Dad who was a strong Heath suporter before going to school.
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    1997 was the first election night I stayed up literally all night for (first election I voted in). 1992 I can just about remember, if only for the surprise Tory victory, but it was in 1987 I probably first became politically aware, as an 11-year old.

    I remember because we were in Year 6 at primary school, we were rostered into "prefect duty" looking after the younger pupils going up and down the stairs at break-time. One rule to be enforced was that they had to go up or down on the left-hand side of the stairs, so prefects had to call out periodically "keep to the left". So, I had the splendid idea of calling out "Keep to the Left - vote Labour" at the time of the 1987 election.

    Unfortunately, a teacher overheard me, and he scolded me: "No political slogans on the stairs, please!", albeit in a jokey kind of way; I think he was probably pro-Labour in any case!
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    TimSTimS Posts: 11,405

    1997 was the first election night I stayed up literally all night for (first election I voted in). 1992 I can just about remember, if only for the surprise Tory victory, but it was in 1987 I probably first became politically aware, as an 11-year old.

    I remember because we were in Year 6 at primary school, we were rostered into "prefect duty" looking after the younger pupils going up and down the stairs at break-time. One rule to be enforced was that they had to go up or down on the left-hand side of the stairs, so prefects had to call out periodically "keep to the left". So, I had the splendid idea of calling out "Keep to the Left - vote Labour" at the time of the 1987 election.

    Unfortunately, a teacher overheard me, and he scolded me: "No political slogans on the stairs, please!", albeit in a jokey kind of way; I think he was probably pro-Labour in any case!

    Lots of us Gen Xers of roughly the same age on here.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 58,090
    Taz said:

    If Italy had a bit more about them they’d be out of sight by now.

    A bit like in the Libyan desert in 1941.
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    carnforth said:

    The scottish Eco Fedralists have quite the slogan list:

    https://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP12671

    And now 1.1% of the votes. Green splitters!

    Last night's Jedburgh and District (Scottish Borders) council by-election result:

    CON: 58.5% (+8.2)
    SNP: 17.4% (-5.7)
    LAB: 10.2% (+10.2)
    LDEM: 7.1% (+7.1)
    GRN: 5.7% (-1.4)
    EFED: 1.1% (+1.1)

    EFED: Eco Federalists

    Valid votes cast: 2,354

    Seat change:
    Conservative GAIN from SNP.

    THE FIGHTBACK STARTS HERE!
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    I work as a poll clerk in every election, but my first was the disappointment of 92. Fortunately the building where the polling station was happened to be opposite a particularly excellent Irish pub, so much of the results was spent within it's welcome embrace. Next day (aged 21) I developed my first case of chickenpox. Halcyon days indeed... 🤔😕🙄
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    The first election I was aware of was 1964. I was only 10 so I didn't really follow it closely, but I was aware of a general sense of optimism that we could get a new government which was more in tune with the changing times (the coming "white heat of technology", the "swinging sixties", etc). And for some reason I remember kids singing "Wilson, do you want to know a secret" (this was a variant on another version "Liston, do you want to know a secret" about Liston's defeat by Cassius Clay).
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,556

    Taz said:

    If Italy had a bit more about them they’d be out of sight by now.

    A bit like in the Libyan desert in 1941.
    For every grain of sand on earth there are 10,000 stars in the observable universe
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    Joe Dean, the world number 2,930 and part-time delivery driver, has won a "life-changing" prize of £170,000 by finishing runner-up at the Kenya Open.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/68397781

    A heartwarming first (well, joint-second) from the golf.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,109
    First one I remember was 1974. The first one I was involved in was 1983, when I was in the Labour Party campaigning for some young radical geezer called John McDonnell (whatever happened to him?) in Hampstead & Highgate, against a Tory buffoon named Geoffrey Finsberg. The constituency was flooded with Labour volunteers and awash with our posters, and we were convinced we were sailing to victory.
    The Tories won.
    I learned my lesson.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,763
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/25/moldovan-separatists-ask-putin-to-annexe-their-region/

    Moldovan separatists to ask Putin to annexe their region

    Rebel government to submit its request to Kremlin during a special congress on Wednesday
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,353
    How about a bit of Jarvis.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPGepgWupTw

    Do You Remember The First Time
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 40,320
    You cannot escape Big Peanuty Brother:

    "Canada-based University of Waterloo is racing to remove M&M-branded smart vending machines from campus after outraged students discovered the machines were covertly collecting face recognition data without their consent."

    https://www.wired.com/story/facial-recognition-vending-machine-error-investigation/
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,736
    edited February 25

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    Having ships that work is a radical new step. It will never catch on.
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    AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    Taz said:

    Italy are the worst team in the world lol

    The IRFB ratings say otherwise.
    Italy are the worst team in the competition by a country mile.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    The first general election in which I could vote was 1979 but I remember taking a real interest in February 1974. We had enjoyed or endured the novelty of power cuts and a three day week - I remember doing my homework by candlelight and having to watch Midlands Today rather than London South East on Nationwide because the latter's studio was without power.

    Even then I thought the Conservative Government and the NUM two sides of the same coin or two cheeks of the same arse if you prefer. I remember getting up early on the Friday morning and watching the election programme with my Dad who was a strong Heath suporter before going to school.

    I remmeber that election - not that we were into politics, but a classmate was really struck by the despondency of one of my teachers the next morning and commented on it to me in a mildly awed tone. As if he'd had two bottles of whisky the evening before.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,032
    First general election I recall was when Heath won in 1970. I remember a local MP blubbing at losing his seat - Belper. Didn't quite register aged 10 that he was the deputy leader of the Labour Party, George Brown, who was prone to being rather emotional. And tired.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 40,320
    I once had the (long) job of searching through an Operating System's source code looking for anything naughty, when we were going to sell the sources to a third party. Things like removing swear words from comments, or anything that might show the company in a bad light.

    It appears MS still haven't done this with their sources:
    https://twitter.com/endermanch/status/1761483144958492836

    The best one we had a debate over was a file called arsencode. Which reads like 'Arse 'n code', but was actually Acorn Replay Sound Encode. we let that one stand.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733

    Taz said:

    Italy are the worst team in the world lol

    The IRFB ratings say otherwise.
    Italy are the worst team in the competition by a country mile.
    They need to introduce relegation for the wooden spoon. Bring up the champs from the European Rugby Championship (usually Georgia)
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694
    edited February 25

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_torpedo_boat_Tomozuru
    Or simply getting the sums right and not having to land a third of the main armament lest it capsizes, never mind when it's doing its job of escorting a convoy. TBF the designers were very overworked in the runup to war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt-class_destroyer#Design
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,796

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/25/moldovan-separatists-ask-putin-to-annexe-their-region/

    Moldovan separatists to ask Putin to annexe their region

    Rebel government to submit its request to Kremlin during a special congress on Wednesday

    Would Moldova accept western troops in their country and, if so, whose?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    Even having some fixed antisubmarine torpedo tubes for when the budgie on the roof is ill or seasick and can't carry torpedoes or depth charges (to paraphrase DA's comments once about the T23, I think it was) would be an improvement.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694

    First general election I recall was when Heath won in 1970. I remember a local MP blubbing at losing his seat - Belper. Didn't quite register aged 10 that he was the deputy leader of the Labour Party, George Brown, who was prone to being rather emotional. And tired.

    Post of the week, I think.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,716
    1992 'Nice guys do finish first'. I was a fairly young child but remember hearing a fair bit about Major being nice. I was pro-Thatcher in the Thatcher vs. Heseltine dust-up - inexplicably really as I had no idea of what their policies were. I don't remember having strong feelings either way on Major v Kinnock.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,458
    2005 for me. I remember not a damn thing about it unfortunately, wasn't really that interested until 2010.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    Having ships that work is a radical new step. It will never catch on.
    The companies don't get the contracts for making them sort of work.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,406

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_torpedo_boat_Tomozuru
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Unebi
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,633
    I remember 7 year old me watching the fag end of the election night coverage in 1974. Then a few months later watching it all again. This gave me the notion that we have general elections every 6 months.

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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,663
    Well done Liverpool from an Arsenal fan .

    Thoroughly deserved and a great show by the youngsters.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,694
    edited February 25

    MattW said:

    Is our AI writer-bot @Leon v8.12 in the building?

    Could he translate this defence announcement into English for me?

    The new contract will provide a renewal of subject matter expert (SME) support across all aspects of the combat system acquisition and integration in Type 26 and Type 31 new build Frigate ship programmes. Building on the signing of the first joint Type 26 & Type 31 contract with Aurora EDP in early 2020, the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) has been working alongside these new build Frigate ship programmes since 2014. The announcement comes as the ship build programmes progress through manufacture phases, with Royal Navy (RN) entry into service planned from 2026 onwards.

    The provision of this SME expertise includes sourcing combat systems related Government Furnished Information (GFI) and supporting dockyard delivery of combat systems Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). Working closely with DE&S to ensure equipment meets current environmental, legal and shock specifications, Aurora EDP will also be responsible for liaising and managing the delivery of the GFE into Portsdown Technology Park. This will enable the de-risking of integration of combat systems equipment and in-service capability growth.

    The service delivers recognised benefits to the customer, including flexibility to allow rapid re-prioritisation of outputs across the acquisition portfolio and significantly reduced cost through opportunity mapping across the two complex warship programmes. Furthermore, this enterprise approach sustains a dedicated allocation of scarce SQEP to manage delivery risk dynamically across outputs, as the platforms approach the technical hurdles of acceptance and service entry.

    Capt Shaun Riordan RN, T26 Combat Systems Team Leader and WC3S Phase 3 lead said:

    “The success of the programme to date is predicated on promoting the best outcome focussed behaviours. This is not a transactional programme; NSDG very much considers the Warship Combat System Support Service (WC3S) as part of the core MOD team critical to delivering these capable platforms into service with the Royal Navy. It is a significant achievement for DE&S to secure these QinetiQ-led combat systems expertise forged from the across the Enterprise for a further 4 years”.


    Source: https://www.qinetiq.com/en-us/news/edp-13m-maritime-combat-12-feb

    Translation:

    The plan is to have a team of real experts on warships, making sure that the Type 26 and Type 31 do warshippy things right. Like float the right way up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)) and not spontaneously explode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_(1909))
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_torpedo_boat_Tomozuru
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Unebi
    TBF this one probably gets first prize in the competition, lasting about 5 minutes as it did.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

    Belay that: I had forgotten this one. went turtle and sank with zero minutes.

    https://www.dalmadan.com/?p=8329
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,716
    Arthur Laffer has said 'Britain faces destitution' if we don't cut taxes.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/25/britain-faces-destitution-hunt-no-tax-cuts-arthur-laffer/

    Thanks Dismal Decline Manager, you useless pillock.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,490
    edited February 25
    Mrs Thatcher as forceful as ever in the last segment celebrating a 'famous victory.' However John Major's victory over Kinnock in 1992 was really the arrival of a post Thatcherite centrist consensus which continued with New Labour, albeit shifted a bit left by Brown and arguably Cameron until Brexit
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    Get in Liverpool, what a great and deserved victory, especially relying upon so many youngsters.

    Good to see that Klopp's final season is ending with at least one more major trophy, and who'd put it past them winning more? Come on!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,903

    1992 'Nice guys do finish first'. I was a fairly young child but remember hearing a fair bit about Major being nice. I was pro-Thatcher in the Thatcher vs. Heseltine dust-up - inexplicably really as I had no idea of what their policies were. I don't remember having strong feelings either way on Major v Kinnock.

    It's funny how these things emerge. You were obviously born a Tory boy and I was drawn at a very early age to left of centre parties, despite my parents being pretty much apolitical, and generally voting for whoever wasn't in power at the time.
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    FlannerFlanner Posts: 436
    I can remember next to nothing about the declarations on the first election night I followed as a 15 yo (Oct 1964), because the excitement all came before and after the night itself.

    It more or less coincided with our city (Liverpool) suddenly grabbing unprecedented global attention ("centre of consciousness of the human universe": Alan Ginsberg, though it's not clear just what substances he'd been misusing that day), and my getting a Saturday job with the Epstein family, whose most famous scion was introducing his groups to the USA. The night before the election, I'd gone to hear Harold Wilson make his pre-election address at the St George's Hall: the night of the election, I stood outside the Adelphi Hotel (then unbelievably swish) to hear his balcony victory address. The day after, it became clear that Labour's majority of 4 equalled precisely the number of Liverpool seats Labour (Kirkdale, Toxteth, Walton and West Derby) had taken from the Tories: the rarely-told psephological explanation of Labour's 1964 victory was the destruction of Merseyside's pseudo-Tory Protestant Party.

    Then, catching up on what the papers were telling us about what was going on outside these islands on the way to work on Oct 17, discovering that Khrushchev had been fired. And we were still scarcely recovered from the amazement at a Catholic being elected US President four years earlier.

    There've been three PMs elected in the UK spending much of election night within a mile or two of our house. To this observer, neither Blair nor Cameron's election carried anything like the excitement of Wilson's. I'm still unsure whether that's because the media are just more oriented to what happens in Westminster, or whether in 1964 so much of the razzmatazz came from the Leader of the Opposition addressing physical meetings.

    But it's certainly the case that all the election nights of that decade were covered far less dramatically by TV than they are now
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 11,588
    edit
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,903

    Arthur Laffer has said 'Britain faces destitution' if we don't cut taxes.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/25/britain-faces-destitution-hunt-no-tax-cuts-arthur-laffer/

    Thanks Dismal Decline Manager, you useless pillock.

    MR-D applies. I mean he's built his whole reputation on a fake theory that panders to the desire of the rich to avoid taxes.
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    eekeek Posts: 26,553

    Arthur Laffer has said 'Britain faces destitution' if we don't cut taxes.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/25/britain-faces-destitution-hunt-no-tax-cuts-arthur-laffer/

    Thanks Dismal Decline Manager, you useless pillock.

    He talks about Fiscal drag then says remove the top rate of tax that you only pay from £126,000 onwards.

    Given that we aren’t stupid enough (and can’t cut) to taxes by too much what planet is he on?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,733

    Get in Liverpool, what a great and deserved victory, especially relying upon so many youngsters.

    Good to see that Klopp's final season is ending with at least one more major trophy, and who'd put it past them winning more? Come on!

    They were easily the better team. Chelsea were invisible in extra time.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 26,716
    HYUFD said:

    Mrs Thatcher as forceful as ever in the last segment celebrating a 'famous victory.' However John Major's victory over Kinnock in 1992 was really the arrival of a post Thatcherite centrist consensus which continued with New Labour, albeit shifted a bit left by Brown and arguably Cameron until Brexit

    Yes. It was the beginning of the Tories becoming as useless as Labour, following a brief Thatcherite interregnum. She let herself get vulnerable to the wet faction in the end. Not that Major's Government wasn't a sight better than what followed.
This discussion has been closed.