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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s deficit in the cuts “blame game” tracker drops to

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited February 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s deficit in the cuts “blame game” tracker drops to just 4 points

One of the non-voting trackers that I’ve been monitoring closely since the coalition was formed in May 2010 has been the above one from YouGov on who is to blame for the cuts.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited February 2014
    Once again this sort of survey shows a bias towards the' Big State' , by asking who is to 'blame' the survey is implying that government spending cuts are an absolute bad thing. Asking who is 'responsible' is a better question

    This attitude is also prevalent in the media (especially BBC ) . Why do people assume everyone thinks government spending should be as much as possible?
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    38% of those expressing a definite view blame Labour; 33% the Conservatives (OK, the coalition). Almost in line with yougov voting intention average this year.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Go on! Send Wings some money! You know you want to!

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.
  • As we've discussed before, this is a very odd question, akin to asking who is to blame for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, so I'm not sure quite what we should make of it.

    The change Mike notes might simply reflect the fact that 'the cuts' are a lower-salience issue than before, as voters get used to the idea that, with good management, the public finances can indeed be improved without the four horsemen of the Apocalypse laying waste to the land. In fact, no-one has much noticed 'the cuts', satisfaction with public services having actually increased.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Once again this sort of survey shows a bias towards the' Big State' , by asking who is to 'blame' the survey is implying that government spending cuts are an absolute bad thing. Asking who is 'responsible' is a better question

    This attitude is also prevalent in the media (especially BBC ) . Why do people assume everyone thinks government spending should be as much as possible?

    I think it's more that people don't like government spending on things they consider valuable to be cut. Perhaps also that they would generally consider that there was a reason it was being spent in the first place, and that there might be negative consequences arising from stopping spending it. Not necessarily an ideologically pure analysis, but a fairly instinctively appealling one.
  • taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Ed' . Edward is more dignified for the office imho
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    FPT @foxinsoxuk - the relationship between Putin and the oligarchs is certainly the one to be thought about. However I'm not convinced they are as chummy as you suggest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_oligarch#Oligarchs_during_Putin.27s_presidency

    (badly written as it is.)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Afternoon all :)

    To be fair, some Conservatives were still harping on about the "Winter of Discontent" well into the 1990s.

    I finally got to read Brogan's article about Cameron and the Coalition. The line has always been from Nick Clegg that the two parties would fight the 2015 GE as independent competing entities so nothing Cameron says now should surprise. I would imagine that Cameron dismissed talk of a Coalition before 2010 but he was more than willing to create the Coalition less than 24 hours after the polls closed.

    The Conservatives are fighting to win an overall majority next year - fair enough. So are Labour of course - again, no problem. To take any other position risks undermining your supporters and your activists.

    Stodge's Fifth Law of Politics states that the pavement of politics is littered with the manifestos of defeated parties and the promises of victorious ones.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited February 2014
    So the sole 'Govt in waiting' opposition party seeking to regain power is still at least partly to blame in the view of nearly 60% of the voters....even after 4 years of Tory baby-eating?
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782

    taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Ed' . Edward is more dignified for the office imho
    I don't know - the Tories had one called 'Ted' in the past.
  • I assume the 4% saying neither are Nats blaming the English?
  • Lennon said:

    taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Ed' . Edward is more dignified for the office imho
    I don't know - the Tories had one called 'Ted' in the past.
    It may be me but if you hold a certain office in life ,using slang for your name seems out of kilter
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Away, indeed. On the other hand, Caligula became emperor (Caligula means little boot, or little military sandal. His real name was Gaius).
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    This is why Cameron's "money is no object" was so monumentally misjudged.

    And why the nice-to-have gimmicks at party conferences such as free school meals and marriage tax breaks are dangerous as they undermine the rationale of the Goverment.

    And why talking about top rates of income tax is toxic.

    The Government must resist the temptation for giveaways in the budget, or I'd have them trailing on this measure by the summer.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Away, indeed. On the other hand, Caligula became emperor (Caligula means little boot, or little military sandal. His real name was Gaius).

    Was he trying to be all cool and right -on?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    This poll result was a bit anomalous. The other secondary questions actually showed a shift towards the government, on economic issues.
  • SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Not saying it will happen in 2015, but Labour did easily win in England in both votes and seats in 1997 and 2001.
  • Mark White ‏@skymarkwhite 1 min
    Adebolajo's counsel says Lee Rigby targeted purely because he was member of the armed forces - no one else was hurt he says #woolwich
    And this is supposed to constitute mitigation?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    I assume the 4% saying neither are Nats blaming the English?

    At that level of response? Far too many to be SNP or even pro-indy types. Forbye the SNP would be far more likely to blame Labour and the Tories together. More likely to be people thinking of the City bankers.
  • Mr. Away, it was a childhood nickname. He used to dress up in miniature versions of legionary armour and arms and pretend to be a soldier.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782

    Mark White ‏@skymarkwhite 1 min
    Adebolajo's counsel says Lee Rigby targeted purely because he was member of the armed forces - no one else was hurt he says #woolwich
    And this is supposed to constitute mitigation?

    Presumably heading down a 'casualty of war' instead of 'murder' approach?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I see Clegg is whining about both Labour and the Conservatives refusing to ask him to the ball:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/26/nick-clegg-condemns-minority-coalition-talk

    I still maintain Clegg's stance of trying to mark out the Lib Dems as, above all, a party which is just interested in staying in government and will do deals with either party, is a spectacular misfire. Forget the micro-policy details of whether his policies appeal to 2010 Lib Dem voters -- the most important thing is that this sends out a signal to everyone (whatever their politicial views) that Clegg is simply a careerist who just wants to keep his snout in the trough rather than having a burning desire to fight for any principles, and that is a fatal perception for any politician/party in this age of people being so cynical about politics in the first place.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Mark White ‏@skymarkwhite 1 min
    Adebolajo's counsel says Lee Rigby targeted purely because he was member of the armed forces - no one else was hurt he says #woolwich
    And this is supposed to constitute mitigation?

    Is that David Gottleib, again?

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The Government must resist the temptation for giveaways in the budget, or I'd have them trailing on this measure by the summer.

    Depends what you mean by a giveaway. If it means giving people more of their own money back, or getting rid of double taxes like stamp duty on starter homes I would disagree completely.

    If it was me I'd move all the stamp duty thresholds up 100 grand, except maybe the very top one.
  • taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Dave' . David is more dignified for the office imho

    :)
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2014

    Mark White ‏@skymarkwhite 1 min
    Adebolajo's counsel says Lee Rigby targeted purely because he was member of the armed forces - no one else was hurt he says #woolwich
    And this is supposed to constitute mitigation?
    Getting allocated that case is the bar's equivalent of a hospital pass. Not much he can do, really, but he has to (and of course should) try.
  • Sean_F said:

    Is that David Gottleib, again?

    Indeed. The man is the doing Mr Whittam's job for him.
  • Carnyx said:

    I assume the 4% saying neither are Nats blaming the English?

    At that level of response? Far too many to be SNP or even pro-indy types. Forbye the SNP would be far more likely to blame Labour and the Tories together. More likely to be people thinking of the City bankers.

    Could be Telegraph readers, PB Unionists & Heffer fans blaming it all on Salmond for his three line 'Yours for Scotland' note to Goodwin?
  • Anorak said:

    Getting allocated that case is the bar's equivalent of a hospital pass. Not much he can do, really, but he has to (and of course should) try.

    It is a rule of law that if a defendant instructs counsel to pursue a political defence and cannot be dissuaded from withdrawing the instructions, the counsel is obliged to withdraw.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Danny565 said:

    I see Clegg is whining about both Labour and the Conservatives refusing to ask him to the ball:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/26/nick-clegg-condemns-minority-coalition-talk

    I still maintain Clegg's stance of trying to mark out the Lib Dems as, above all, a party which is just interested in staying in government and will do deals with either party, is a spectacular misfire. Forget the micro-policy details of whether his policies appeal to 2010 Lib Dem voters -- the most important thing is that this sends out a signal to everyone (whatever their politicial views) that Clegg is simply a careerist who just wants to keep his snout in the trough rather than having a burning desire to fight for any principles, and that is a fatal perception for any politician/party in this age of people being so cynical about politics in the first place.


    A very good point, Mr 565. Whether Clegg's stance will be quite as fatal as you think (and it deserves) is a moot point. Frankly, I doubt it but the opinion polls give cause for hope.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited February 2014

    taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Dave' . David is more dignified for the office imho

    :)
    Hey leave my posts!!! David Cameron (and Margaret Thatcher) may be called in jest 'Dave' and 'Maggie' but I would be aghast if either took to calling themselves those names!

    I am with Brian Clough on this one who hated shortened or slang names and that was for footballers!!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    Is that David Gottleib, again?

    Indeed. The man is the doing Mr Whittam's job for him.
    I wonder if he'll quote at length from Shakespeare again.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    As we've discussed before, this is a very odd question, akin to asking who is to blame for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, so I'm not sure quite what we should make of it.

    The change Mike notes might simply reflect the fact that 'the cuts' are a lower-salience issue than before, as voters get used to the idea that, with good management, the public finances can indeed be improved without the four horsemen of the Apocalypse laying waste to the land. In fact, no-one has much noticed 'the cuts', satisfaction with public services having actually increased.

    By a margin of 43% to 39% voters agree that the "cuts" are good for the economy. By a margin of 42% to 39%, they think the cuts are either too shallow, or about right, as opposed to too deep. If people are starting to see cuts in public expenditure as being a positive thing, then that may explain why this particular gap has narrowed.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Anorak said:

    Getting allocated that case is the bar's equivalent of a hospital pass. Not much he can do, really, but he has to (and of course should) try.

    It is a rule of law that if a defendant instructs counsel to pursue a political defence and cannot be dissuaded from withdrawing the instructions, the counsel is obliged to withdraw.
    I am not sure what you mean by a political defence could you expand a bit? How often do barristers withdraw from a case?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    edited February 2014

    taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Dave' . David is more dignified for the office imho

    :)
    Hey leave my posts!!! David Cameron (and Margaret Thatcher) may be called in jest 'Dave' and 'Maggie' but I would be aghast if either took to calling themselves those names!
    Sorry! But.. he did say this in an interview with Richard Bacon on XFM in 2006:

    Lots of people call me Dave, my mum calls me David, my wife calls me Dave, I don't really notice what people call me.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Cameron
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2014

    Anorak said:

    Getting allocated that case is the bar's equivalent of a hospital pass. Not much he can do, really, but he has to (and of course should) try.

    It is a rule of law that if a defendant instructs counsel to pursue a political defence and cannot be dissuaded from withdrawing the instructions, the counsel is obliged to withdraw.
    I'm assuming "cannot be dissuaded from withdrawing" means "can't be persuaded to withdraw". And if the counsel chooses not to withdraw, what are the ramifications? And if he (or she) does withdraw, does the defendant have to conduct his own defence?
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Not saying it will happen in 2015, but Labour did easily win in England in both votes and seats in 1997 and 2001.
    Labour with their Scottish heartland ripped away would be like a trauma victim after a battlefield amputation. It's not just the MPs, its the money, history and energy Scotland gives the party: so many of its leading figures have been Scots. Labour was founded by a Scot.

    A YES vote would send Labour into a tailspin. I can easily see the Tories emerging with a majority in that situation (not least cause most Scots would vote Nat rather than Labour in 2015, as they would be voting for the parliament that would negotiate divorce).

    However, as I say, YES is unlikely. So PM EM it is.

    Help.

    Just to remind everyone:

    http://www.election.demon.co.uk/ge1997.html
    http://www.election.demon.co.uk/ge2001.html
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Anorak said:

    Getting allocated that case is the bar's equivalent of a hospital pass. Not much he can do, really, but he has to (and of course should) try.

    It is a rule of law that if a defendant instructs counsel to pursue a political defence and cannot be dissuaded from withdrawing the instructions, the counsel is obliged to withdraw.
    1. Are you sure?

    2. Mitigating isn't defending.



  • Sean_F said:

    As we've discussed before, this is a very odd question, akin to asking who is to blame for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, so I'm not sure quite what we should make of it.

    The change Mike notes might simply reflect the fact that 'the cuts' are a lower-salience issue than before, as voters get used to the idea that, with good management, the public finances can indeed be improved without the four horsemen of the Apocalypse laying waste to the land. In fact, no-one has much noticed 'the cuts', satisfaction with public services having actually increased.

    By a margin of 43% to 39% voters agree that the "cuts" are good for the economy. By a margin of 42% to 39%, they think the cuts are either too shallow, or about right, as opposed to too deep. If people are starting to see cuts in public expenditure as being a positive thing, then that may explain why this particular gap has narrowed.

    Indeed - as I have consistently argued on here. The Tories believe in a smaller state. They should be proud of what they have been doing. Blaming Labour for it implies that the Tories believe that cuts are bad. They don't.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    FPT
    Anorak said:

    Err! I think that Putin is quite friendly with the oligarcs, it is that whole culture of power and patronage that the Ukranians want away from these things though!. The EU may not be the best avenue away fr

    Grandiose said:

    I've spoken to Putin's supporters (and supporters of the strong hand) in Russia and they mostly said the same thing: they characterise the choice as between power in the Kremlin, or power in the hands of the oligarchs in London or Paris. They are more confident of Putin using that power to the public good than any of the hated oligarchs.

    There are bad (booooo!) oligarchs and good (yay!) oligarchs. The sole criteria is whether you support a certain Mr Putin or not.
    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.
  • AveryLP said:

    FPT

    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.

    Comrade Chancellor! You'll receive the Order of Lenin for this!
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    EDL erecting gallows outside the Bailey...
  • AveryLP said:

    FPT

    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.

    Comrade Chancellor! You'll receive the Order of Lenin for this!
    I think Andrew Marr comments in one of his books how he was bemused why ,on a visit to some official Russian government place, some of the guards seemed to stand to attention and look nervous as he passed until he realised they thought it was Putin.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Tovarisch Sunil

    I shall need a broader chest to display them all.

    This is the third you have awarded me.

    AveryLP said:

    FPT

    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.

    Comrade Chancellor! You'll receive the Order of Lenin for this!
  • AveryLP said:

    Tovarisch Sunil

    I shall need a broader chest to display them all.

    This is the third you have awarded me.

    AveryLP said:

    FPT

    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.

    Comrade Chancellor! You'll receive the Order of Lenin for this!
    Can I get one for saying I think the Russian National Anthem is the best by far!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Not saying it will happen in 2015, but Labour did easily win in England in both votes and seats in 1997 and 2001.
    Labour with their Scottish heartland ripped away would be like a trauma victim after a battlefield amputation. It's not just the MPs, its the money, history and energy Scotland gives the party: so many of its leading figures have been Scots. Labour was founded by a Scot.

    A YES vote would send Labour into a tailspin. I can easily see the Tories emerging with a majority in that situation (not least cause most Scots would vote Nat rather than Labour in 2015, as they would be voting for the parliament that would negotiate divorce).

    However, as I say, YES is unlikely. So PM EM it is.

    Help.

    Are you sure about the effect of a Yes for Independence on Labour, at least south of the border? (I have no doubt about the effect north of the border. But that's not what you mean.) The Party has moved on from its Scottish roots in many ways.

    10-20 years ago, yes, I'd agree. Messrs Cook, Brown, Murphy, Dewar, Smith etc. etc. Plenty key MPs from Scots constituencies (I use this rather than 'Scots MPs' for obvious reasons).

    But now? I can only think of Douglas Alexander, Jim Murphy and Margaret Curran in the Shadow Cabinet, and Ms Curran's post (Sec of S for Scotland) would evaporate anyway with a Yes (eventually), while only Mr Alexander has a major post. Other than that, it's just subscriptions and lobby fodder that Scotland provides Mr Miliband, useful as those few dozen MPs are. And it's a good question whether Labour would not lose seats even after a No vote.
  • RodCrosby said:

    EDL erecting gallows outside the Bailey...

    Tommy Robinson was obviously a restraining influence.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Berenberg economist on UK GDP numbers:

    "The UK recovery is broadening as rising confidence gets firms investing again. Today’s second estimate of GDP left headline growth unchanged at 0.7% qoq in Q4 2013, but showed rising investment intentions are now feeding through to the hard data with business investment up 2.4% qoq in Q4. Large revisions to the back data mean that business investment is now estimated to have risen for four consecutive quarters and by more than 4% in the past six months. These early expenditure estimates are extremely unreliable, especially for investment, so we need to take the story with a pinch of salt. But rising capital expenditure fits with strong survey readings, so is likely to be describing the reality and bodes well for this year. The recovery is broadening out and with firms’ optimism in the recovery rising rapidly, 2014 is likely to see growth gradually gaining momentum."
  • Lennon said:

    taffys said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    City AM was listing some of the socialist measures that have made Venezuela such a basket case.

    Amazing how similar they are to what ed is proposing. Very depressing, really.

    I still don't know how anyone who hopes to be PM can hope to be taken seriously whilst calling themselves 'Ed' . Edward is more dignified for the office imho
    I don't know - the Tories had one called 'Ted' in the past.
    It may be me but if you hold a certain office in life ,using slang for your name seems out of kilter
    It could be worse; it could be Ted Miliband.

  • Mr. Carnyx, it's only a few years since we had a Scottish Labour PM and Scottish Labour Chancellor.

    I think what matters more is that the Conservatives will have no problems portraying themselves as tough (for the purposes of negotiation with Scotland), whereas Labour will. There's also the serious possibility the electorate will wonder what will happen if we have a Labour majority due to Scottish seats. I can't see the English being thrilled at that possibility.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Carnyx said:

    SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Go on! Send Wings some money! You know you want to!

    I'll give them a Scottish tenner, provided I never have to listen to 'Mull of Kintyre' ever again.

  • Mark White ‏@skymarkwhite 1 min
    Adebolajo's counsel says Lee Rigby targeted purely because he was member of the armed forces - no one else was hurt he says #woolwich
    And this is supposed to constitute mitigation?

    I wonder if Adebolajo's counsel is as crass as he sounds?
  • AveryLP said:

    Tovarisch Sunil

    I shall need a broader chest to display them all.

    This is the third you have awarded me.

    AveryLP said:

    FPT

    Like Putin or not, his record with the oligarchs is unimpeachable.

    It was Yeltsin who allowed the oligarchs to develop their powerbases. OK, it may have been an excusable consequence of rapid transition to a free market economy, but it was the oligarchs who ended up returning Yeltsin to power.

    When Putin gradually took over he had to bring the Yeltsin oligarchs into line which he did slowly and effectively by returning the core raw material extraction industry assets to state ownership. The oligarchs who complied with Putin ended up rich exiles (Abramovich). Those who challenged his power ended up in jail (Khodorkovsky).

    And Putin is not a typically corrupt Soviet style carpet bagger (at least by comparison with his predecessors and peers throughout the FSU). You won't find a string of Presidential yachts and many palaces built in his name (there is one on the Black Sea) and he doesn't flaunt his personal wealth, although to be fair a Russia President will always have access to any comfort desired.

    In addition his family do not run half the industry in the country. By Russian standards (I stress again this is relative), Putin is an austere and self-denying leader. His stand against Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow's all powerful Mayor with a wife who ran the private property development industry in Moscow, was a model of the 'principled' power accretion.

    Putin is by no means a saint and his exercise of power can be childish and boorish. He is also not an 'enlightened' leader in the mould of the Catherine the Great who spent her waking hours corresponding with Voltaire. He cultivates the well established image of a Russian "muzhik": a sort of man of the people. This is part a projection of KGB calculation but also undoubtedly part genuine.

    For all the faults of Putin's administration, he is undoubtedly popular and respected in Russia. He may want to appear fearless but there is too much of the rational analyst in him to be foolhardy.

    If he moves into the Ukraine it will not be to conquer or divide but to obtain the best hand at the poker table.

    Comrade Chancellor! You'll receive the Order of Lenin for this!
    Can I get one for saying I think the Russian National Anthem is the best by far!
    Impossible not to agree you with after watching the splendid performance of the choir on Sunday at the Sochi Closing Ceremony!
  • Salmond's piece in the New Statesman 'Scottish' edition:

    http://tinyurl.com/phmyvft

    Wonder which (conflicted) PBer this is?

    'JamesB0nd • an hour ago
    Racist buffoon.
    Can't wait to watch you lose your stupid referendum Alex. I'll enjoy watching you humiliated, even though I'd love you to be booted out of the union along with your collapsed banks and your dole-sucking nation of schemies.'
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    SO

    Cuts are not a menu option at a three rosette restaurant.

    By the third year of the next parliamentary term the UK will be paying £75 billion a year in debt interest, That will be higher than any departmental spending except Health and Work and Pensions.

    And that figure is based on current plans for further cuts in public spending.

    So there is no choice for the next government. It is cut or die.

    Given the lack of options we might as well have a government which understands and believes in the need for further austerity.

    If the electorate get their decision wrong, then the bill of £75 bn a year will soon appear a distant fond memory.

    We cannot afford a Labour government SO.

    Sean_F said:

    As we've discussed before, this is a very odd question, akin to asking who is to blame for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, so I'm not sure quite what we should make of it.

    The change Mike notes might simply reflect the fact that 'the cuts' are a lower-salience issue than before, as voters get used to the idea that, with good management, the public finances can indeed be improved without the four horsemen of the Apocalypse laying waste to the land. In fact, no-one has much noticed 'the cuts', satisfaction with public services having actually increased.

    By a margin of 43% to 39% voters agree that the "cuts" are good for the economy. By a margin of 42% to 39%, they think the cuts are either too shallow, or about right, as opposed to too deep. If people are starting to see cuts in public expenditure as being a positive thing, then that may explain why this particular gap has narrowed.

    Indeed - as I have consistently argued on here. The Tories believe in a smaller state. They should be proud of what they have been doing. Blaming Labour for it implies that the Tories believe that cuts are bad. They don't.

  • Carnyx said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    The horror that is Prime Minister Ed Miliband moves ever closer.

    About the only thing that can stop it now is a YES vote in Scotland, which I am not expecting.

    Not saying it will happen in 2015, but Labour did easily win in England in both votes and seats in 1997 and 2001.
    Labour with their Scottish heartland ripped away would be like a trauma victim after a battlefield amputation. It's not just the MPs, its the money, history and energy Scotland gives the party: so many of its leading figures have been Scots. Labour was founded by a Scot.

    A YES vote would send Labour into a tailspin. I can easily see the Tories emerging with a majority in that situation (not least cause most Scots would vote Nat rather than Labour in 2015, as they would be voting for the parliament that would negotiate divorce).

    However, as I say, YES is unlikely. So PM EM it is.

    Help.

    Are you sure about the effect of a Yes for Independence on Labour, at least south of the border? (I have no doubt about the effect north of the border. But that's not what you mean.) The Party has moved on from its Scottish roots in many ways.

    10-20 years ago, yes, I'd agree. Messrs Cook, Brown, Murphy, Dewar, Smith etc. etc. Plenty key MPs from Scots constituencies (I use this rather than 'Scots MPs' for obvious reasons).

    But now? I can only think of Douglas Alexander, Jim Murphy and Margaret Curran in the Shadow Cabinet, and Ms Curran's post (Sec of S for Scotland) would evaporate anyway with a Yes (eventually), while only Mr Alexander has a major post. Other than that, it's just subscriptions and lobby fodder that Scotland provides Mr Miliband, useful as those few dozen MPs are. And it's a good question whether Labour would not lose seats even after a No vote.

    It's all pretty unknowable, I'd have thought. The most likely scenario is that it will make very little difference to voting intentions in the rUK in 2015, but that it might start to have profound effects after that - especially as it is bound to lead to a significant constitutional shake-up.
  • Can I get one for saying I think the Russian National Anthem is the best by far!

    With the possible exception of the Borat version of the Kazakhstan anthem:

    Kazakhstan greatest country in the world.
    All other countries are run by little girls.
    Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium.
    Other countries have inferior potassium.

    Kazakhstan home of Tinshein swimming pool.
    It’s length thirty meter and width six meter.
    Filtration system a marvel to behold.
    It remove 80 percent of human solid waste.

    Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan you very nice place.
    From Plains of Tarashek to northern fence of Jewtown.
    Kazakhstan friend of all except Uzbekistan.
    They very nosey people with bone in their brain.

    Kazakhstan industry best in the world.
    We invented toffee and trouser belt.
    Kazakhstan’s prostitutes cleanest in the region.
    Except of course Turkmenistan’s

    Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan you very nice place.
    From Plains of Tarashek to northern fence of Jewtown.
    Come grasp the mighty penis of our leader.
    From junction with the testes to tip of its face!
  • Indeed - as I have consistently argued on here. The Tories believe in a smaller state. They should be proud of what they have been doing. Blaming Labour for it implies that the Tories believe that cuts are bad. They don't.

    Problem is that the Tories know most swing voters think the cuts are bad. If they said "we are cutting the size of the state for ideological reasons" then the stories about kids going to school starving and people having their benefits stopped for not applying for jobs on Christmas Day will immediately be spun as what Tories believe in.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Mr. Carnyx, it's only a few years since we had a Scottish Labour PM and Scottish Labour Chancellor.

    I think what matters more is that the Conservatives will have no problems portraying themselves as tough (for the purposes of negotiation with Scotland), whereas Labour will. There's also the serious possibility the electorate will wonder what will happen if we have a Labour majority due to Scottish seats. I can't see the English being thrilled at that possibility.

    In the sense that Messrs Brown and Darling were of the Scottish Labour Party insofar as such a thing exists - undoubtedly. But statistically it's unlikely to happen again for a while surely (given the relative number of Labour MPs in Scotland vs UK). Which would presumably reinforce the point, that at the moment Scotland is just makeweight from the Labour point of view (and, given the FPTP system, one that may not be missed all that much).

    A question is whether EWNI voters would have forgotten about Scottish independence come GE2015 - but that won't happen for the reasons you say, unless some sort of fudge is sorted out (and I can't see the Tories being too keen to help out Mr Miliband).

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    If David Cameron or Ed Miliband said the Lee Rigby murder makes him wonder whether the death penalty is justified for some cases, it would win them more votes than they would lose
  • AveryLP said:

    Tovarisch Sunil

    I shall need a broader chest to display them all.

    This is the third you have awarded me.

    They even showed "Enemy at the Gates" on Film4 last night :)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2014

    Salmond's piece in the New Statesman 'Scottish' edition:

    http://tinyurl.com/phmyvft

    Interestingly Salmond does not seek to dispute this:

    The Treasury further argued that the UK is the continuing state in international law, and so Scotland is not entitled to a share of the Bank of England, among other things.

    Either Salmond has been badly advised on the consequences of this, is ignoring the advice he gets.....or is only listening to the advice he wants to hear......
    The background is that, in terms of public international law, what would happen in the event of a Yes vote in the independence referendum in September is that Scotland would become a new State in international law and that the rest of the United Kingdom would continue as the “continuator” State. This position was authoritatively set out in the UK Government’s first Scotland Analysis Paper and in the legal opinion co-authored by Professors James Crawford and Alan Boyle that was annexed to that paper. This legal analysis has not been seriously questioned by the Scottish Government in the last 12 months.

    The consequence of this is that institutions of the United Kingdom would automatically become institutions of the rest of the United Kingdom in the event of Scottish independence. Thus, for example, the UK’s security and secret intelligence services would become the security and secret intelligence services of the rest of the UK (“rUK”). The Bank of England is a UK institution. So is the BBC. As UK institutions they would not fall to be apportioned equitably between the rUK and an independent Scotland.
    Adam Tomkins, John Millar Professor of Public Law at the University of Glasgow

    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-hidden-costs-of-independence/
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Indeed - as I have consistently argued on here. The Tories believe in a smaller state. They should be proud of what they have been doing. Blaming Labour for it implies that the Tories believe that cuts are bad. They don't.

    Problem is that the Tories know most swing voters think the cuts are bad. If they said "we are cutting the size of the state for ideological reasons" then the stories about kids going to school starving and people having their benefits stopped for not applying for jobs on Christmas Day will immediately be spun as what Tories believe in.

    No Conservative thinks the size of the state can be measured in pounds and pence. It is about what the state does; what functions it performs. Now state spending could be cut by reducing the functions of government (in a broad sense), which would be "ideological" cuts; or it could be cut by, while accepting that the state ought to function in a particular way nevertheless accepting that it is not possible to finance it as fully as one would like; or it would be possible to make cuts by reducing spending that does not effectively contribute to any function at all.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    "The Low Pay Commission has recommended a 3% increase in the minimum wage to £6.50 an hour for adults, Business Secretary Vince Cable has told MPs."

    It'll fly through.
  • Salmond's piece in the New Statesman 'Scottish' edition:

    http://tinyurl.com/phmyvft

    Interestingly Salmond does not seek to dispute this:

    The Treasury further argued that the UK is the continuing state in international law, and so Scotland is not entitled to a share of the Bank of England, among other things.

    Either Salmond has been badly advised on the consequences of this, is ignoring the advice he gets.....or is only listening to the advice he wants to hear......
    The background is that, in terms of public international law, what would happen in the event of a Yes vote in the independence referendum in September is that Scotland would become a new State in international law and that the rest of the United Kingdom would continue as the “continuator” State. This position was authoritatively set out in the UK Government’s first Scotland Analysis Paper and in the legal opinion co-authored by Professors James Crawford and Alan Boyle that was annexed to that paper. This legal analysis has not been seriously questioned by the Scottish Government in the last 12 months.

    The consequence of this is that institutions of the United Kingdom would automatically become institutions of the rest of the United Kingdom in the event of Scottish independence. Thus, for example, the UK’s security and secret intelligence services would become the security and secret intelligence services of the rest of the UK (“rUK”). The Bank of England is a UK institution. So is the BBC. As UK institutions they would not fall to be apportioned equitably between the rUK and an independent Scotland.
    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-hidden-costs-of-independence/



    The currency union Salmond favours will mean the rUK having a controlling say over an independent Scotland's expenditure. His Plan B means that an independent Scotland would be unable to raise money on international markets except at exorbitant rates. A separate Scottish currency would also mean a number of years of reduced expenditure as the international markets assess Scotland's long-term prospects, viability and trustworthiness. And that leaves the Euro, which is dependent on EU membership and, moving forward, will also mean significant controls on what the Scottish government can spend. The entire article is utterly disingenuous. But then Salmond is first and foremost a nationalist. He would prefer to live in an independent Scotland where public spending is lower than it is now, than to live in a Scotland that is part of the UK.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    Tovarisch Sunil

    I shall need a broader chest to display them all.

    This is the third you have awarded me.

    They even showed "Enemy at the Gates" on Film4 last night :)
    Can I swap one of my Orders of Lenin for Rachel Weisz?

    You can keep the other Rachel.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    In the not exactly earth-shattering news category:
    PC Keith Wallis is now just Keith Wallis.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26358662

    In slightly surprising news, a second PC, James Glanville, has been dismissed without notice over the Plebgate affair. Who he?
  • Salmond's piece in the New Statesman 'Scottish' edition:

    http://tinyurl.com/phmyvft

    Interestingly Salmond does not seek to dispute this:

    The Treasury further argued that the UK is the continuing state in international law, and so Scotland is not entitled to a share of the Bank of England, among other things.

    Either Salmond has been badly advised on the consequences of this, is ignoring the advice he gets.....or is only listening to the advice he wants to hear......
    The background is that, in terms of public international law, what would happen in the event of a Yes vote in the independence referendum in September is that Scotland would become a new State in international law and that the rest of the United Kingdom would continue as the “continuator” State. This position was authoritatively set out in the UK Government’s first Scotland Analysis Paper and in the legal opinion co-authored by Professors James Crawford and Alan Boyle that was annexed to that paper. This legal analysis has not been seriously questioned by the Scottish Government in the last 12 months.

    The consequence of this is that institutions of the United Kingdom would automatically become institutions of the rest of the United Kingdom in the event of Scottish independence. Thus, for example, the UK’s security and secret intelligence services would become the security and secret intelligence services of the rest of the UK (“rUK”). The Bank of England is a UK institution. So is the BBC. As UK institutions they would not fall to be apportioned equitably between the rUK and an independent Scotland.
    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-hidden-costs-of-independence/

    The currency union Salmond favours will mean the rUK having a controlling say over an independent Scotland's expenditure.Which is why 'the three Chancellors' have been right to rule it out - if we thought the Scots moan about finances now its nothing compared to what it would be in a currency union 'Westminster has stopped us from doing X' would be a daily Press Release - it would poison inter-state relations for years. I wish Salmond had more faith in his fellow-Scots 'It'll be tough, but we can do it' would be sellable......
  • What is the expected point of Crossover in this metric?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited February 2014

    What is the expected point of Crossover in this metric?

    Get on with it compouter and stop complaining.

    We'll let you know when you can put the posts down.

    [Sorry LBS, mistook you for compouter]

  • In the not exactly earth-shattering news category:
    PC Keith Wallis is now just Keith Wallis.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26358662

    In slightly surprising news, a second PC, James Glanville, has been dismissed without notice over the Plebgate affair. Who he?

    "James Glanville" and pleb produces exactly one result on google. Not a strict googlewhack, but still.
  • @isam FPT

    I said today will be my last day, and it will. Why you find this so hard to grasp I do not know.
  • Salmond's piece in the New Statesman 'Scottish' edition:

    http://tinyurl.com/phmyvft

    Interestingly Salmond does not seek to dispute this:

    The Treasury further argued that the UK is the continuing state in international law, and so Scotland is not entitled to a share of the Bank of England, among other things.

    Either Salmond has been badly advised on the consequences of this, is ignoring the advice he gets.....or is only listening to the advice he wants to hear......
    The background is that, in terms of public international law, what would happen in the event of a Yes vote in the independence referendum in September is that Scotland would become a new State in international law and that the rest of the United Kingdom would continue as the “continuator” State. This position was authoritatively set out in the UK Government’s first Scotland Analysis Paper and in the legal opinion co-authored by Professors James Crawford and Alan Boyle that was annexed to that paper. This legal analysis has not been seriously questioned by the Scottish Government in the last 12 months.

    The consequence of this is that institutions of the United Kingdom would automatically become institutions of the rest of the United Kingdom in the event of Scottish independence. Thus, for example, the UK’s security and secret intelligence services would become the security and secret intelligence services of the rest of the UK (“rUK”). The Bank of England is a UK institution. So is the BBC. As UK institutions they would not fall to be apportioned equitably between the rUK and an independent Scotland.
    http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-hidden-costs-of-independence/

    The currency union Salmond favours will mean the rUK having a controlling say over an independent Scotland's expenditure.
    Which is why 'the three Chancellors' have been right to rule it out - if we thought the Scots moan about finances now its nothing compared to what it would be in a currency union 'Westminster has stopped us from doing X' would be a daily Press Release - it would poison inter-state relations for years. I wish Salmond had more faith in his fellow-Scots 'It'll be tough, but we can do it' would be sellable......



    I doubt it would be sellable. I can't see a scenario under which Scotland will have more money for public spending than it has now. The only realistic way Scotland can see an increase in public spending is to remain part of the UK. For avowed nationalists, though, the symbolism of independence trumps all else.

  • @isam FPT

    I said today will be my last day, and it will. Why you find this so hard to grasp I do not know.

    I promise I will say nothing if a new poster called dybdybdyb appears in due course.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    Off-topic, but may be interest to some:
    Inside the US army's museum storage facility, which includes many works of art:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/inside-the-armys-spectacular-hidden-treasure-room
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    @isam FPT

    I said today will be my last day, and it will. Why you find this so hard to grasp I do not know.

    Ok goodo. Roll on tmrw
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    antifrank said:

    @isam FPT

    I said today will be my last day, and it will. Why you find this so hard to grasp I do not know.

    I promise I will say nothing if a new poster called dybdybdyb appears in due course.
    antifrank said:

    @isam FPT

    I said today will be my last day, and it will. Why you find this so hard to grasp I do not know.

    I promise I will say nothing if a new poster called dybdybdyb appears in due course.
    Or Paden-Bowell.

    (A double flounce in less than 6 months must be a new pb record).
  • Mr. Scout, I suspect it'd be an error of judgement to leave. Entirely up to you, of course, but you might prefer to stay. You wouldn't want to miss out on my riveting and universally popular F1 tips, would you?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    then the stories about kids going to school starving

    From what I've read poor kids are more likely to be going to school obese than starving.
  • In the event that you do decide to leave, Mr BoyScout, have you considered whether you'll be keeping the pound?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033

    Off-topic, but may be interest to some:
    Inside the US army's museum storage facility, which includes many works of art:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/inside-the-armys-spectacular-hidden-treasure-room

    Fascinating!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    This morning I received a nice letter from the Co-op (one of the banks we bank with). It thanks me for standing by them during one of the most difficult times in their history.

    And then:
    "For over 140 years to ethics and values of The Co-operative Bank have set us apart."
    Arf. More like "We are the same as the others, and just kidded people we were different"

    On more positive news, they are going to be improving their on-line banking (which last time we used it was terrible - but we haven't used it for six months or so because it was so bad).
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    taffys said:

    then the stories about
    kids going to school starving

    From what I've read poor kids are more likely to be going to school obese than starving.

    But their educational expectation is lowered if they have Free School Meals!!

    Yet children in Africa who do not know if there will be a next meal are in school on time without the need for truancy officers!!
  • A continued currency union between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be a rational outcome but one hard to reconcile with the Scots’ pursuit of independence. The residual UK, making up 91½ per cent of any monetary union, would want to exert oversight of Scottish fiscal and financial policy, which it would not be prepared to reciprocate. Whatever Mr Salmond may say, there has to be a plan B.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7a9637e6-9d80-11e3-a599-00144feab7de.html#ixzz2uRkFdVUk

    But what does (Professor) John Kay know? Perhaps we should ask Salmond - he used to advise him after all....
  • Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.
  • I said today will be my last day, and it will.

    Every new post is a fresh exquisite torture. Will this be [sob] his final post? Or will he bless us all once more?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited February 2014
    But their educational expectation is lowered if they have Free School Meals!!

    It's interesting that there are plenty of poster boys for the welfare reformists. Mick Philpott, White Dee etc.

    We have yet to see a poster boy for the keep the taps on left. Can't Rochdale Pioneer and co. dig up a few Oliver Twists? People do seem to personalise this...
  • Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    Obesity is caused by poor diet and/or lack of exercise. I am not sure how that conflicts in any way with more people being referred to food banks.



  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited February 2014

    Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    To bring it into more recent times, what would happen if they could only have the rations books of say 1948 when even bread was rationed, no imported fruit and veg and no snack foods like crisps etc, and petrol was rationed or near non-available to private or non-essential users which does include commuting.
    A lot more walking and cycling would happen.

    So waistlines would decrease within 6 months.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    Don't give them ideas! Imagine a blog run by Cato the Elder with every post ending 'Carthago delenda est' ... actually, not so different from some of the DT columnists' webpages ...

  • A continued currency union between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be a rational outcome but one hard to reconcile with the Scots’ pursuit of independence. The residual UK, making up 91½ per cent of any monetary union, would want to exert oversight of Scottish fiscal and financial policy, which it would not be prepared to reciprocate. Whatever Mr Salmond may say, there has to be a plan B.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7a9637e6-9d80-11e3-a599-00144feab7de.html#ixzz2uRkFdVUk

    But what does (Professor) John Kay know? Perhaps we should ask Salmond - he used to advise him after all....

    Sir Tom Hunter, oft-praised by nationalists here and elsewhere, has said something similar:

    Meanwhile, Sir Tom used an article in the Sunday Times to urge Mr Salmond to back down over his refusal to name a Plan B currency.
    This could include joining the euro, adopting a new currency or using the pound in the same way Panama uses the US dollar. However, the latter would mean Scotland have no central bank, control over monetary policy or lender of last resort.
    “It is entirely disingenuous of our First Minister to say to us Scots, ‘don’t worry, it’ll be all right on the night’. This is the biggest decision we will ever take; we can’t take it on a wing and a prayer,” he said.
    “At the very least Scots need a Plan B that is understandable, costed and feasible so we know what to expect if Plan A doesn’t work.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10551676/Ed-Miliband-warns-Scots-no-currency-union-if-I-am-Prime-Minister.html

    Salmond's problem here is that there is no currency option that in the short or medium term would allow public spending in Scotland to be higher - or even the same as - it is now. Thus, obfuscation and attacking the messenger are the only viable options he has on this issue.


  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    Obesity is caused by poor diet and/or lack of exercise. I am not sure how that conflicts in any way with more people being referred to food banks.


    I would say that the link between food bank usage and obesity was, at best, tenuous in the extreme.

    I would add, also, that the link if any, would be between the demand for food-banks and obesity, and the actual number of food-banks correlates poorly with demand. (It would be pushing reality in the extreme to suggest that back in 2006 only a handful of families would have used a food-bank if one had been available.)
  • Mr. Observer, obesity just confounds me, excepting unfortunate children who are overfed and develop obesity because of that.

    Then again, I'm in the rather odd position of not especially liking food (or, at least, liking it far less than everyone else). The idea of comfort eating makes as little sense to me as comfort stabbing yourself in the face with a stanley knife.

    Mr. Carnyx, I imagine the Secret Blog of Procopius (a long time later, but still) could be quite entertaining.

    The concept of the state being a very real core of identity rather than a thing that happens to be where you're living for the moment is interesting. Once loyalty began to shift to generals and then emperors the ideals of republican Rome disintegrated and the empire crumbled.

    I do wonder, should Scotland leave, whether we'll see a resurgence of the British/English identity (and whether England, Wales and Northern Ireland would hang together).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    edited February 2014
    This suggests that the “blame the last Labour government ” rhetoric, that we hear so often, is losing its potency.

    That is likely true, but I recall Brown using the 'blame the last Conservative government' rhetoric 13 years after they were last in power, so I doubt the Coalition will drop attacks on the topic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    A continued currency union between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be a rational outcome but one hard to reconcile with the Scots’ pursuit of independence.

    Perhaps. And of course, whether it is rational or not, or good for rUK or not, was never the whole point, nor did it mean the threat of the unionist parties was bluff. Even if the Nats were totally right on everything they said about it, that wouldn't mean they would agree (that none of them do makes me more likely to accept their word that they genuinely don't think it is a good idea)
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Financier said:

    Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    To bring it into more recent times, what would happen if they could only have the rations books of say 1948 when even bread was rationed, no imported fruit and veg and no snack foods like crisps etc, and petrol was rationed or near non-available to private or non-essential users which does include commuting.
    A lot more walking and cycling would happen.

    So waistlines would decrease within 6 months.

    I don't know about post-war rationing, but during the war the average citizen consumed more calories than today's average citizen - and more than the RDA. However the level of exercise was vastly different.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Mr. Observer, obesity just confounds me, excepting unfortunate children who are overfed and develop obesity because of that.

    Then again, I'm in the rather odd position of not especially liking food (or, at least, liking it far less than everyone else). The idea of comfort eating makes as little sense to me as comfort stabbing yourself in the face with a stanley knife.

    Mr. Carnyx, I imagine the Secret Blog of Procopius (a long time later, but still) could be quite entertaining.

    The concept of the state being a very real core of identity rather than a thing that happens to be where you're living for the moment is interesting. Once loyalty began to shift to generals and then emperors the ideals of republican Rome disintegrated and the empire crumbled.

    I do wonder, should Scotland leave, whether we'll see a resurgence of the British/English identity (and whether England, Wales and Northern Ireland would hang together).

    As far as I can see neither Wales nor NI could afford to let go of the apron strings and nor I believe at present do they wish to.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Mr. Financier, it's certainly a curious mix to see foodbanks still haven't increased in number enough to meet demand, yet obesity continues to rise.

    I sometimes wonder what Britain would be like if, one morning, everybody woke up with the slightly mental patriotism of Romans during the Second Punic War. The enervation of prosperity is something rarely discussed, but something we should all be aware of.

    Obesity is caused by poor diet and/or lack of exercise. I am not sure how that conflicts in any way with more people being referred to food banks.

    Current thinking is that it's a LOT more complicated than that. There are genetic and metabolic factors involved.
This discussion has been closed.