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QUESTIONS THE BUSINESS SELECT COMMITTEE SHOULD BE ASKING – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited March 12 in General
QUESTIONS THE BUSINESS SELECT COMMITTEE SHOULD BE ASKING – politicalbetting.com

Please ask whether they are also delaying compensation for the victims of contaminated blood for the same reason too? I can think of no other reason for the government’s baffling delays given they have had final compensation recommendations for almost a year already!

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  • Options
    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465
  • Options
    JAILS FAIL Cocaine pusher who sold drugs on parole gets softer second sentence — as ‘jails are full’
    Justice Secretary Alex Chalk previously announced criminals may be let off jail because of a lack of space

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/26026128/cocaine-dealing-sentence-reduced-prisons-overcrowding/
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    Third, having woken up; at the wrong time.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,447
    Fourth

    Thanks for the header, Ms @Cyclefree .

    I'm just picking up a detail from Trump pieces: he has another $99m of interest to pay on top of his $355 million of disgorgement and other bits.

    He has been hit with an enormous financial penalty of $355m (£282m; €329m) - which jumps to more than $450m once interest is included - that far exceeds how much cash he has to hand. His business will continue to be be watched by an independent monitor, with a separate independent director of compliance also signing off on major business decisions.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68323086

    Apologies if that has been noted - I've had a very chopped around day.

    That makes this one $453,500,000 ish.
    Plus $88m for defamation.
    Plus around $10m for Trumpites Jr.

    Makes it as near as dammit my original $550m punt, in toto.

    But I can only claim 1.5 cheers because I said that would be a number for just the Civil Fraud case.
  • Options
    Labour MP Damien Egan offered extra security

    The newly elected Member of Parliament for Kingswood, Damien Egan, has been offered enhanced security protection because protesters have made threats against him and his Israeli husband.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-mp-damien-egan-offered-extra-security-sunl688c

    That didn't take long.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,467

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Can we think of anyone involved in the sorry affair who has not denied allegations ?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,467
    Government need to think about a system for replacing the sulphur particulates from shipping emissions as soon as possible.
    This is not normal, and will induce further climate feedbacks.

    February on course to break unprecedented number of heat records
    Rapid ocean warming and unusually hot winter days recorded as human-made global heating combines with El Niño
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/17/february-on-course-to-break-unprecedented-number-of-heat-records
    ...Ocean surface heat continues to astonish seasoned observers and raises the prospect of intense storms later in the year. The hurricane specialist Michael Lowry tweeted that sea surface temperatures across the Atlantic main development region, where most of the US category 3 or stronger hurricanes form, “are as warm today in mid-February as they typically are in middle July. Incredible.”

    Global sea surface temperatures are in “uncharted territory” according to Hirschi, who expects March to break last August’s record by 0.1C to 0.2C. March is typically the hottest time of the year for oceans because it is late summer in the southern hemisphere, which is home to most of the world’s great seas...

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,467
    Amount of fraud in UK more than doubled to £2.3bn in 2023, report finds
    Accounting firm BDO also warns of future impact of fraudsters using artificial intelligence to rip off customers
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/feb/19/amount-of-in-uk-more-than-doubled-to-23bn-in-2023-report-finds
    ...BDO said the true overall level of fraud was likely to be significantly higher than £2.3bn because statistics from the Crime Survey for England and Wales had revealed that fewer than one in seven offences are reported to the police...
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119

    Labour MP Damien Egan offered extra security

    The newly elected Member of Parliament for Kingswood, Damien Egan, has been offered enhanced security protection because protesters have made threats against him and his Israeli husband.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-mp-damien-egan-offered-extra-security-sunl688c

    That didn't take long.

    FFS.

    What a state we’re in.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔
  • Options
    Weight loss jabs could be cheaper and better treatment for addicts than rehab, study suggests
    Groundbreaking research found the medication cut or even eliminated cravings in people formerly hooked on powerful opioids

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/19/weight-loss-jabs-wegovy-better-rehab-addicts/ (£££)

    Good news from an American study of Fentanyl addicts.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,116

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    It potentially helps Labour if it becomes an election issue.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    Chris said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    It potentially helps Labour if it becomes an election issue.
    Badenoch to make a speech today,she will ‘tell the truth’.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.
  • Options

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,467
    edited February 19
    A couple of thoughts on the header.

    1. Wrongdoers who come clean are entitled to some credit for doing so - as out courts recognise.

    2. Henry Stanton does not seem to have come clean. Though he has given us a peek behind the official veil.
  • Options
    The header identifies why the Tories are heading for demolition - they are malevolent. People can cope with boring. Incompetent even. But doing things which are deliberately nasty? No.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,202
    I honestly think the Tories best route to polling at sub 20% would be to ditch Sunak now and replace with Braverman or Badenoch.

    Bring it on,
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    edited February 19
    Nigelb said:

    A couple of thoughts on the header.

    1. Wrongdoers who come clean are entitled to some credit for doing so - as out courts recognise.

    2. Henry Stanton does not seem to have come clean. Though he has given us a peek behind the official veil.

    He thinks he has come clean. Note the unnamed person who gave him his orders and the the note he made. Now lost of course.

    In his mind, very probably, he is cooperating as much as he can. Actually naming people, providing documents etc would be “letting the side down”. Someone who did that would cease to be a “safe pair of hands” and wouldn’t be considered to future gigs.

    This is how the non-exec system works. As a method of *losing* responsibility. After all, didn’t the judge in the Kids Company case say that it would be unfair to assign legal liability to the legally liable? Because otherwise people might not do the job?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    edited February 19
    Wes Streeting being given a hard time over the SNP ceasefire motion on Today, but giving a decent series of answers - his line that “Labour are acting as they would in power with behind the scenes diplomacy rather than just slogans” is probably the best they can manage in this situation.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,358
    edited February 19
    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,467
    Prototype commercial space manufacturing platform. Been in orbit since June last year.

    Maneuver 1 complete ✅

    The Curie engine has successfully completed a perigee lowering burn as planned.

    It's the first of four Curie burns in the coming days to bring the Winnebago-1 spacecraft home for @VardaSpace

    https://twitter.com/RocketLab/status/1759477437531091033
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    IanB2 said:

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
    ……


  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    Many moons ago, after another scandal, I proposed a system that could be implemented after important reports. The report would come up with a list of issues, and even propose solutions.

    The government would then have to respond within a period - say, a couple of months - to say what their response is to each issue and proposal. For ones they accept, they would have to give an implementation timetable. The original inquiry team would be responsible for checking on the progress towards implementation.

    It creates extra bureaucracy, but would help prevent reports being kicked into the long grass and forgotten.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
    Not sound; not one of the chaps. This happens not just at the top but all the way down. It is career-ending to be known as "not a team player".
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,842
    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,706
    I think Kemi Badenoch is potentially in big trouble. She has accused the last chairman of the Post Office being "full of lies" about his sacking in the Times article. She also claimed he was sacked for "misconduct". Unless she can demonstrate in court the chairman's story was wholly false, not just incorrect in some details, and that he had actually misbehaved (policy differences don't count as misconduct), Staunton would have a strong libel case against her I think.

    Furthermore he can be interviewed about his relationship with the Business Secretary in the Select Committee, where he is obliged to answer fully regardless of NDAs and has no incentive to hold back.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316

    IanB2 said:

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
    Not sound; not one of the chaps. This happens not just at the top but all the way down. It is career-ending to be known as "not a team player".
    Yes. To give a simple example, if a cabinet minister named the civil servant in question, then a future Cabinet Sec. would be obliged to advise the PM that said cabinet minister “wasn’t able to work with the Civil Service”

    IIRC this was tried under Thatcher a couple of times - not naming people but other no-towing-the-line. She responded by re-appointing the Ministers in question.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119

    Weight loss jabs could be cheaper and better treatment for addicts than rehab, study suggests
    Groundbreaking research found the medication cut or even eliminated cravings in people formerly hooked on powerful opioids

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/19/weight-loss-jabs-wegovy-better-rehab-addicts/ (£££)

    Good news from an American study of Fentanyl addicts.

    Expect alot of push back and lobbying from the weight loss industry and the health lobbyists.

    There are alot of people and companies making alot of money out of weight loss and weight issues. They won't go down without a fight.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    That Trust is making a right tit of itself.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,842

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    The labour rats are leaving the sinking ship hoping they will get back in to Labour, SNP is full of ex Labour grifters who follow the money. Anas the multi millionaire who pays his workers a pittance will really lead to economic growth but only in Labour's pockets.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
    In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle's_laws
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    edited February 19
    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    And the decision, if the opportunity comes round, is difficult for any (ambitious) politician. With Hague and hindsight, I'd wager that he'd have got the chance later, if he'd let some other bozo take up the mantle at such a bad time. But no-one can guarantee that later chance will arise. And, in British politics at least, second chances are exceptionally rare - being Lord Cammo is about as lucky as it gets, and that's notable for being so unusual.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,119
    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    I will be interested to see what she says later.

    I do not think she is ready for the role. I do think some of her opponents fear her as a leader. Just see some of the puerile and childish retorts aimed at her.

    How she handles this has the potential to set her future career in politics either way.

    The whole Post Office scandal crosses all parties, the Tories are left holding the baby. They need to resolve this and pay compensation, as they do with the contaminated blood scandal.

    I saw Pat McFadden interviewed on Kuenssberg a week or so ago and asked about this when he was minister. He handled the questionning well. Certainly compared to the inept way Ed Davey responded to questions.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,983
    FF43 said:

    I think Kemi Badenoch is potentially in big trouble.

    This is bad for Kevin the Minion. When jockeying for leadership of the tattered and ash streaked remains of the blue horde the last thing she needs is cross-contamination from the most toxic political scandal de nous jours.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    Hague's problem was not immaturity but bad judgement. He failed not because he wore a baseball cap but because he staked everything on opposing the Euro, a project already seen off by Gordon Brown. It is a shame because Hague had an intellect, wit, a great voice, and could think on his feet.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947
    edited February 19

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    DavidL said:

    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.

    Surely someone had to mention to him that the word was “coverup”? Otherwise how was a chap to know what the word was? Might have to resort to reading reports or some nonsense like that, otherwise.

    The new broom was purchased from the same rack, in the same shop, as the old. Strangely it resembles the old broom. We need a judge led enquiry over 2 decades to figure out why, perhaps?
  • Options
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
    It probably is true. The article is a bit sniffy about the research but does not contradict it. The whole thing seems a bit pointless: why take hormones to produce chestmilk rather than nip down the baby food aisle at Boots or Tesco. It is not like breastfeeding is universal even among mums who are cis women.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189
    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.

    Or - radical idea - it is as he said, and the sack was for the opposite reason as you suggested.

    Three scenarios:
    Staunton is right
    Badenoch is right
    Neither are right

    On the balance of probabilities, the lying Tory minister is lying.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,706
    edited February 19
    Dura_Ace said:

    FF43 said:

    I think Kemi Badenoch is potentially in big trouble.

    This is bad for Kevin the Minion. When jockeying for leadership of the tattered and ash streaked remains of the blue horde the last thing she needs is cross-contamination from the most toxic political scandal de nous jours.
    Yes. No-one cares about the Chairman, who is 75 and presumably enjoying his golf in Cornwall. What this latest twist does is place the Horizon spotlight firmly on the current regime and on Badenoch in particular, who has quite unnecessarily made things more difficult for herself with claims about the Chairman that will need substantiating if she wants to avoid a potentially successful libel suit.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,947
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Oh in this case I'm not talking about the people who have suffered - more the people who caused the suffering

    Remember that Paula Vennells was a Church of England Minister destined for great things (supposedly a senior Bishop). Either she was beyond incompetent or knowingly sent innocent people to jail while bankrupting them.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,088

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
    It probably is true. The article is a bit sniffy about the research but does not contradict it. The whole thing seems a bit pointless: why take hormones to produce chestmilk rather than nip down the baby food aisle at Boots or Tesco. It is not like breastfeeding is universal even among mums who are cis women.
    Breast is best.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Prior to Horizon being introduced, how many sub-postmasters (etc) were prosecuted annually for offences involving dishonesty?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253

    IanB2 said:

    Excellent as ever.

    Staunton is a perfect example of…. Yes, that.

    It is of interest to see the mechanism of how it works.

    1) keep changing the people supposedly in charge
    2) make sure they are incurious about the supposed role (not reading a 200 page report? If I can be bothered…)
    3) they take their instructions from permanent officials.
    4) the permanent officials are not making policy, but they play a role in the game of Telephone that keeps the underlying, unofficial policies going.

    The type of person needed in such circumstances - someone who will rock the boat and hold up meetings and create extra work by asking difficult questions and by being willing to continue to do so against the disapproval of the rest of the meeting - is usually screened out during the appointment process, or quietly dropped if they do manage to slip through the net.
    In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle's_laws
    The phrase in that article, "the self-licking ice cream cone", makes the point most memorably..
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Prior to Horizon being introduced, how many sub-postmasters (etc) were prosecuted annually for offences involving dishonesty?
    " a largish number will have indeed have been guilty".

    Oh come on. Where is the evidence for this statement?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    Do we know what that story embargoed to midnight that was supposed to embarass Sarwar has turned out to be?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,179
    Dura_Ace said:

    FF43 said:

    I think Kemi Badenoch is potentially in big trouble.

    This is bad for Kevin the Minion. When jockeying for leadership of the tattered and ash streaked remains of the blue horde the last thing she needs is cross-contamination from the most toxic political scandal de nous jours.
    Maybe the Patel punt from yesterday was not so far off beam?

  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
    It’s not something that can replicate breast milk. It is breast milk. You’re turning on the same genes, the body is making the same substance in the same way, even if it’s been triggered artificially by the administration of exogenous female hormones.
    So you’re saying article is…dog whistling click bait? Surely not, I’d have expected better from the Telegraph.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    Do we know what that story embargoed to midnight that was supposed to embarass Sarwar has turned out to be?
    Turns out he was Post Office Minister responsible for instructing Staunton to go slow on compensation.

    Badenoch is in the clear!
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    Do we know what that story embargoed to midnight that was supposed to embarass Sarwar has turned out to be?
    Nope, didn't even know there was an embargoed story. Went to bed early last night like the clean living chap I am.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    Hague's problem was not immaturity but bad judgement. He failed not because he wore a baseball cap but because he staked everything on opposing the Euro, a project already seen off by Gordon Brown. It is a shame because Hague had an intellect, wit, a great voice, and could think on his feet.
    I think the bad judgment was a product of immaturity.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
    It probably is true. The article is a bit sniffy about the research but does not contradict it. The whole thing seems a bit pointless: why take hormones to produce chestmilk rather than nip down the baby food aisle at Boots or Tesco. It is not like breastfeeding is universal even among mums who are cis women.
    Breast is best.
    Moobs is good.

    Not advising this as a slogan for the aforementioned NHS trust.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,253
    edited February 19
    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    For sure, but I think we know it's not going to happen. In a large organisation, power is more diffuse than it might appear from the organisation chart and that, plus the rotation through the roles over such a long period of time, means that there is a cast of hundreds with some pie stains on their fingers yet no-one who remembers being the person who stole the pie. Or who remembers how it came to be stolen.

    There's little utility in doling out punishments to so many, and the inquiry will have a job building a strong enough case against just one or two people. Vennells is the person most obviously in the frame, having been in charge when the most egregious decisions were taken; she will have the opportunity to muddy the water by implicating others, should she go down that route, but that's a dangerous path. Those that have appeared so far have opted for a mix of history re-writing and selective amnesia, whenever the cross-examination got particularly pointed.

    I'd expect, probably in 2026, a long list of lessons to learn and some organisational punishments like curbing the powers of private prosecution. And a focus on resolving the compensation - under-commented in relation to this weekend's story about the government wanting to go slow on compensation for financial reasons is that it wouldn't help the politics to have the compensation finally resolved before the inquiry concludes, since getting that done afterwards will be needed as the crutch to which politicians will want to cling.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    Hague's problem was not immaturity but bad judgement. He failed not because he wore a baseball cap but because he staked everything on opposing the Euro, a project already seen off by Gordon Brown. It is a shame because Hague had an intellect, wit, a great voice, and could think on his feet.
    I think the bad judgment was a product of immaturity.
    Older wiser Hague was fine in the coalition government. There was a decent statesman underneath once the immaturity had flaked off.

    I'm yet to be convinced that, if you remove Badenoch's immaturity, there's much left at all. Her entire appeal seems to be the studs first culture warrior thing.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,339

    DavidL said:

    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.

    Or - radical idea - it is as he said, and the sack was for the opposite reason as you suggested.

    Three scenarios:
    Staunton is right
    Badenoch is right
    Neither are right

    On the balance of probabilities, the lying Tory minister is lying.
    Can't several things be true at once (and I'm not saying they are without inside knowledge, just that they can be)?

    1. The PO had long used delays and obfuscation
    2. Staunton does have an interest on blaming the government for delays that are now the subject of wider public outrage
    3. Nonetheless, before said public outrage, officials, whether under ministerial direction or not, also wanted to delay, not understanding that the Post Office scandal would become the kind of cause that cuts through hugely
    4. Badenoch has created a problem for herself by going in all guns blazing when Staunton's account maybe true - just not the entire one that obviously paints himself in the best possible light

    It would not be the first time a whistleblower is not without blame themselves but outs others as guilty too.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Prior to Horizon being introduced, how many sub-postmasters (etc) were prosecuted annually for offences involving dishonesty?
    I don't know the numbers but there was a steady trickle. Which is hardly surprising when you consider that these post offices were operated by small business people subject to the stresses and strains of running a business whilst having fairly uncontrolled access to a lot of funds belonging to someone else. The PO believed there should be more and struggled with the inadequacy of their accounting systems to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. They did, however, sue PO managers on the balance of probabilities.

    Horizon was supposed to improve the accounting systems and make it easier to prove fraud. And it may well have done that, as well as creating a whole series of new, completely false, "frauds" through glitches in the system. An increase in prosecutions after the introduction of Horizon will initially have been taken as proof it worked rather than any problem.
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,403

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Mental, is it any wonder NHS is falling to bits
    Indeed

    Keep clapping and banging those pots and pans.
    It’s $ so I can’t see if the statement is scientifically true or not. I assume the article is showing that it’s not?

    Interesting topic though, to what extent hormones can induce production of something that can replicate breast milk.
    It probably is true. The article is a bit sniffy about the research but does not contradict it. The whole thing seems a bit pointless: why take hormones to produce chestmilk rather than nip down the baby food aisle at Boots or Tesco. It is not like breastfeeding is universal even among mums who are cis women.
    Breast is best.
    Moobs is good.

    Not advising this as a slogan for the aforementioned NHS trust.
    There's a rhyme for this, isn't there? :wink:

    Thirst the worst
    Breast the best
    Third the milk from the hairy chest
  • Options

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    Hague's problem was not immaturity but bad judgement. He failed not because he wore a baseball cap but because he staked everything on opposing the Euro, a project already seen off by Gordon Brown. It is a shame because Hague had an intellect, wit, a great voice, and could think on his feet.
    This is the same Hague who in 2012 boasted "President Assad's days are numbered" ?.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
    Nah, this rat started edging away when the stench of late Boris became too overpowering. Haven't you noticed my careful repositioning? I sometimes think I am wasting my time on here.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
    Nah, this rat started edging away when the stench of late Boris became too overpowering. Haven't you noticed my careful repositioning? I sometimes think I am wasting my time on here.
    You're not. Plenty of conservatives in a similar position to yourself. And you know the difference between right and wrong, unlike the grifting government ministers.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.

    Or - radical idea - it is as he said, and the sack was for the opposite reason as you suggested.

    Three scenarios:
    Staunton is right
    Badenoch is right
    Neither are right

    On the balance of probabilities, the lying Tory minister is lying.
    Chances are that neither is willingly giving us the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. Not yet, anyway.

    It may well be that both central accusations- Staunton needed to be removed from the board for being rubbish and the government wants to rook subpostmasters by delaying their compensation- are broadly true.

    But if this descends into mud throwing, one of the throwers has a lot more to lose than the other.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    For sure, but I think we know it's not going to happen. In a large organisation, power is more diffuse than it might appear from the organisation chart and that, plus the rotation through the roles over such a long period of time, means that there is a cast of hundreds with some pie stains on their fingers yet no-one who remembers being the person who stole the pie. Or who remembers how it came to be stolen.

    There's little utility in doling out punishments to so many, and the inquiry will have a job building a strong enough case against just one or two people. Vennells is the person most obviously in the frame, having been in charge when the most egregious decisions were taken; she will have the opportunity to muddy the water by implicating others, should she go down that route, but that's a dangerous path. Those that have appeared so far have opted for a mix of history re-writing and selective amnesia, whenever the cross-examination got particularly pointed.

    I'd expect, probably in 2026, a long list of lessons to learn and some organisational punishments like curbing the powers of private prosecution. And a focus on resolving the compensation - under-commented in relation to this weekend's story about the government wanting to go slow on compensation for financial reasons is that it wouldn't help the politics to have the compensation finally resolved before the inquiry concludes, since getting that done afterwards will be needed as the crutch to which politicians will want to cling.
    “ There's little utility in doling out punishments to so many”

    Yes there is.

    Someone published a paper, proving that after they shot Admiral Byng, performance in the Royal Navy jumped.

    Seriously, that is exactly the argument that is used to do nothing.

    Let’s ruin a lot of people
  • Options
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    IanB2 said:

    TimS said:

    Kemi has denied some allegations.

    Post Office scandal: Kemi Badenoch hits back at Henry Staunton
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68330465

    Comedy gold from Badenoch. And she forgot to name the evil mastermind who was instructing Staunton not to pay victims - Sir Ed “Boohoo” Davey
    Her default style seems to be “chippy”. Every time I’ve seen her respond to any kind of criticism she’s gone full on teenager. She’ll need to dial that down if she wants to look like a serious LOTO.
    Is looking “serious” part of the job description? For Tory LOTOs, at first at least, it hasn’t always been.
    Pugnacious could work. But teenage style pugnacity won’t. At the moment I think Badenoch is well placed for a role as attack dog (she’s very much an opposition politician despite holding a ministerial post). Doesn’t mean she won’t get the gig but I think she faces the same challenge as Hague: too immature for the role yet.
    Hague's problem was not immaturity but bad judgement. He failed not because he wore a baseball cap but because he staked everything on opposing the Euro, a project already seen off by Gordon Brown. It is a shame because Hague had an intellect, wit, a great voice, and could think on his feet.
    I think the bad judgment was a product of immaturity.
    Hague's stint as Foreign Secretary does not bear that out.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    MJW said:

    DavidL said:

    Staunton's explanation and self exoneration really makes no sense. It is completely inconsistent with the history. He was only appointed Chairman in December 2022. By that time Post Office Counters Limited had been stalling and lying and hiding the results of their own inquiries and those of the external auditors for a decade. He simply continued with business as usual and the suggestion he needed to be told to do so is pretty laughable.

    It is, of course entirely possible, indeed likely, that the government, as shareholders, were more than content with the POs lack of candour and evasion as they did not want to be writing large cheques. It also appears as if the various Ministers, starting but by no means ending with Davey, were deliberately incurious for solid financial reasons.

    It is the job of a non executive Chairman to protect the integrity and good reputation of the business. That means addressing grossly immoral, indeed illegal, behaviour being carried out by the business. Staunton completely failed in his task. He deserved the sack and a new broom was needed. Sadly, the new broom looks suspiciously like the old broom.

    Or - radical idea - it is as he said, and the sack was for the opposite reason as you suggested.

    Three scenarios:
    Staunton is right
    Badenoch is right
    Neither are right

    On the balance of probabilities, the lying Tory minister is lying.
    Can't several things be true at once (and I'm not saying they are without inside knowledge, just that they can be)?

    1. The PO had long used delays and obfuscation
    2. Staunton does have an interest on blaming the government for delays that are now the subject of wider public outrage
    3. Nonetheless, before said public outrage, officials, whether under ministerial direction or not, also wanted to delay, not understanding that the Post Office scandal would become the kind of cause that cuts through hugely
    4. Badenoch has created a problem for herself by going in all guns blazing when Staunton's account maybe true - just not the entire one that obviously paints himself in the best possible light

    It would not be the first time a whistleblower is not without blame themselves but outs others as guilty too.
    Staunton hasn’t blown any whistles. He seems to think that he was an innocent bystander, and that he had nothing to do with what happened.

    It was all someone’s fault. Not his.

    That’s not whistle blowing. That’s just sloped shoulders.
  • Options
    Today sees the second reading of the Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill.

    From the House of Commons research briefing:-

    The Bill would implement most of the proposals from the reviews. In particular it would:
    • Introduce a new, lighter-touch regime for the retention and examination of bulk personal datasets where there is a low or no expectation of privacy in the data
    • Create an additional condition, allowing authorities to access internet connection records in order to identify individuals accessing specific internet sites and services where necessary to address serious crime or to protect national security
    • Create a new requirement for telecommunications operators to notify the Government of proposed changes to products or services which could impede intelligence services in lawfully accessing data
    It would extend to the whole of the UK.
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9960/

    Essential to protect the children and find out who has been saying nasty things about the Prime Minister on PB.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679
    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Why wouldn't it be? Sexual dimorphism in humans isn't very pronounced (compared to many other animals). We know that cis men have the capability to lactate (although it is very rare), so it isn't like the body needs to grow the entire system from scratch, and cis women typically only lactate when they have had certain hormones in their system due to having been pregnant. If a trans woman has enough hormones that she produces breast milk, then why would one assume it would be an issue?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
    Nah, this rat started edging away when the stench of late Boris became too overpowering. Haven't you noticed my careful repositioning? I sometimes think I am wasting my time on here.
    I’m sure like many PBers you’ve ceased defending the sewage scow (to hammer a metaphor) that is the Tory party, but I’ve missed which vessel it is that you’re swimming towards.
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 898

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Prior to Horizon being introduced, how many sub-postmasters (etc) were prosecuted annually for offences involving dishonesty?
    Between 1989 and 1999 there were 57 prosecutions that resulted in convictions (Post office Freedom of information response). The Post Office is unable to say how many cases there were in total, including ones not obtaining a conviction.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,189

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
    Nah, this rat started edging away when the stench of late Boris became too overpowering. Haven't you noticed my careful repositioning? I sometimes think I am wasting my time on here.
    I’m sure like many PBers you’ve ceased defending the sewage scow (to hammer a metaphor) that is the Tory party, but I’ve missed which vessel it is that you’re swimming towards.
    I'll sail this ship alone between the, the pain and the pleasure
    I'll sail this ship alone amongst the, the sharks and the treasure
    If you would rather go your way then go your way
    I'll sail this ship alone

    Just about covers it.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    The charges are fairly straightforward in that there has been acts to pervert the course of justice by perjury.


    The more complicated part of the story, as is mentioned in the BBC piece about Badenoch, is that in a lot of cases Horizon was not the only evidence against many of the Post Office managers. There is, frankly, an inevitability that a complete exoneration of the PO managers will create another injustice in that a largish number of them will indeed have been guilty. But that is still better than the alternative where the innocent remain tarnished with unsafe convictions.
    Prior to Horizon being introduced, how many sub-postmasters (etc) were prosecuted annually for offences involving dishonesty?
    I don't know the numbers but there was a steady trickle. Which is hardly surprising when you consider that these post offices were operated by small business people subject to the stresses and strains of running a business whilst having fairly uncontrolled access to a lot of funds belonging to someone else. The PO believed there should be more and struggled with the inadequacy of their accounting systems to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. They did, however, sue PO managers on the balance of probabilities.

    Horizon was supposed to improve the accounting systems and make it easier to prove fraud. And it may well have done that, as well as creating a whole series of new, completely false, "frauds" through glitches in the system. An increase in prosecutions after the introduction of Horizon will initially have been taken as proof it worked rather than any problem.
    That was my recollection; a steady trickle of prosecutions. Raises questions about recruitment processes, of course.
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679

    Labour MP Damien Egan offered extra security

    The newly elected Member of Parliament for Kingswood, Damien Egan, has been offered enhanced security protection because protesters have made threats against him and his Israeli husband.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-mp-damien-egan-offered-extra-security-sunl688c

    That didn't take long.

    Whilst I think any threats of violence are unacceptable - I also think it is completely fine to protest someone who was a soldier in another army (or, indeed, our army) based on the acts of that army / state. If anything I think more people should be protesting their MPs at their surgeries or houses for their beliefs and votes - they are supposed to represent us and when they don't, peaceful protest is a pretty reasonable response. This being the husband of an MP is a bit of a grey area - the MP is the public figure here, not his husband - but in principle, again, I'm not against it.

    This kind of feels like SCOTUS post Dobbs when people turned up to protest at their houses and they started getting their knickers in a twist. Peaceful protesters (and I do want to highlight peaceful here before people claim I am defending death threats or whatever) protesting your actions when you have significant power over others is fair.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    edited February 19

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    The PO saga looks set to drag on into the next Parliament and Govt, hopefully a new PM (hopefully) will just shake the magic money tree (its a little bare) and move on, I sense that it might just rear its head in the run up to a GE. lessons do need to be learnt but foot dragging over the compo helps no-one.

    Lessons do not need to be learnt. That is admin speak for “write an unreadable report and hold no-one to account for their actions.”

    Instead, actual people, who fucked up, need to lose their jobs for gross incompetence.
    The problem is a lot of them have already left their jobs and retired. What I (and I suspect anyone else who knows a bit of the story) would wish to see is for those involved to be treated how their treated others - thrown in prison (dodgy charges fine if that's the best you can do) and bankrupted.
    For sure, but I think we know it's not going to happen. In a large organisation, power is more diffuse than it might appear from the organisation chart and that, plus the rotation through the roles over such a long period of time, means that there is a cast of hundreds with some pie stains on their fingers yet no-one who remembers being the person who stole the pie. Or who remembers how it came to be stolen.

    There's little utility in doling out punishments to so many, and the inquiry will have a job building a strong enough case against just one or two people. Vennells is the person most obviously in the frame, having been in charge when the most egregious decisions were taken; she will have the opportunity to muddy the water by implicating others, should she go down that route, but that's a dangerous path. Those that have appeared so far have opted for a mix of history re-writing and selective amnesia, whenever the cross-examination got particularly pointed.

    I'd expect, probably in 2026, a long list of lessons to learn and some organisational punishments like curbing the powers of private prosecution. And a focus on resolving the compensation - under-commented in relation to this weekend's story about the government wanting to go slow on compensation for financial reasons is that it wouldn't help the politics to have the compensation finally resolved before the inquiry concludes, since getting that done afterwards will be needed as the crutch to which politicians will want to cling.
    “ There's little utility in doling out punishments to so many”

    Yes there is.

    Someone published a paper, proving that after they shot Admiral Byng, performance in the Royal Navy jumped.

    Seriously, that is exactly the argument that is used to do nothing.

    Let’s ruin a lot of people
    What was that paper, please?

    TBF to Byng, he was trying to follow his orders and the rule book! Not his fault if they were contradictory with what he was supposed to be doing.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Another fine patriotic lion who has rejected the division of nationalism.

    A former SNP official who was backed to be an MSP by Humza Yousaf has defected to Labour and says he no longer believes in Scottish independence.

    Doug Thomson, a businessman, has swapped parties after 14 years as a card-carrying nationalist. He said he had become disillusioned with the SNP leadership and a lack of policy vision.

    Thomson, who is married to Mandy Rhodes, editor of Holyrood magazine, said the “final straw” had been the news that senior figures including Nicola Sturgeon had deleted evidence wanted by the UK Covid inquiry.

    Thomson was formerly a convener of his SNP branch in Edinburgh and was an approved potential parliamentary candidate for Westminster and Holyrood.

    He was backed by Yousaf, who said Thomson had the “drive, the commitment, the background and the belief to bring something very special” to the party.

    Asked if he still believes in independence, Thomson said: “No, I don’t. And that’s probably something that’s been weakening with me for a period of time and I suspect some of that was maybe during the first ministership of Nicola. We lost so much focus on our core values.”

    Thomson, from Edinburgh, is the latest in a series of political figures to ditch the SNP. Last week Karl Rosie, a Highland councillor who was a candidate at the last general election, quit and said he was “deeply troubled” by the party’s policies.

    There has been a particular shift towards Labour since Anas Sarwar, the party leader, put greater focus on economic growth and relationships with businesses.

    Benny Higgins, the former chief executive of Tesco Bank who also advised Sturgeon when she was in office, last week wrote in The Times that it “made sense” for businesses to back Labour.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-loses-top-talent-as-former-candidate-doug-thomson-joins-labour-3mzl7dkx9

    Why do rats and the sinking of ships come to mind?
    I assume this means that you’ll be staunchly standing on the fantail of HMS Conservative & Unionist Party, humming ‘Abide with Me’ as it slips beneath the turd infested waves?
    Nah, this rat started edging away when the stench of late Boris became too overpowering. Haven't you noticed my careful repositioning? I sometimes think I am wasting my time on here.
    I’m sure like many PBers you’ve ceased defending the sewage scow (to hammer a metaphor) that is the Tory party, but I’ve missed which vessel it is that you’re swimming towards.
    I'll sail this ship alone between the, the pain and the pleasure
    I'll sail this ship alone amongst the, the sharks and the treasure
    If you would rather go your way then go your way
    I'll sail this ship alone

    Just about covers it.
    So Count Binface it is then.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635
    148grss said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Why wouldn't it be? Sexual dimorphism in humans isn't very pronounced (compared to many other animals). We know that cis men have the capability to lactate (although it is very rare), so it isn't like the body needs to grow the entire system from scratch, and cis women typically only lactate when they have had certain hormones in their system due to having been pregnant. If a trans woman has enough hormones that she produces breast milk, then why would one assume it would be an issue?
    The notion that it is somehow amazing reminds me of the time of yore when men were used to watching male football but astounded to discover that women could also use their legs and feet to kick a ball and score goals.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279
    148grss said:

    Labour MP Damien Egan offered extra security

    The newly elected Member of Parliament for Kingswood, Damien Egan, has been offered enhanced security protection because protesters have made threats against him and his Israeli husband.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-mp-damien-egan-offered-extra-security-sunl688c

    That didn't take long.

    Whilst I think any threats of violence are unacceptable - I also think it is completely fine to protest someone who was a soldier in another army (or, indeed, our army) based on the acts of that army / state. If anything I think more people should be protesting their MPs at their surgeries or houses for their beliefs and votes - they are supposed to represent us and when they don't, peaceful protest is a pretty reasonable response. This being the husband of an MP is a bit of a grey area - the MP is the public figure here, not his husband - but in principle, again, I'm not against it.

    This kind of feels like SCOTUS post Dobbs when people turned up to protest at their houses and they started getting their knickers in a twist. Peaceful protesters (and I do want to highlight peaceful here before people claim I am defending death threats or whatever) protesting your actions when you have significant power over others is fair.
    How about laying siege to Jacob Rees-Mogg's children. All good?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,005
    Carnyx said:

    148grss said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Why wouldn't it be? Sexual dimorphism in humans isn't very pronounced (compared to many other animals). We know that cis men have the capability to lactate (although it is very rare), so it isn't like the body needs to grow the entire system from scratch, and cis women typically only lactate when they have had certain hormones in their system due to having been pregnant. If a trans woman has enough hormones that she produces breast milk, then why would one assume it would be an issue?
    The notion that it is somehow amazing reminds me of the time of yore when men were used to watching male football but astounded to discover that women could also use their legs and feet to kick a ball and score goals.
    As any fule kno, only women have uteruses (uteri?) which will fall out if they travel at more than 20mph, so the case for men-only trains is clear.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Topping, I must disagree. Protesting at politicians' homes is unreasonable and will only deter even more people from aspiring to office.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,635

    Carnyx said:

    148grss said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Why wouldn't it be? Sexual dimorphism in humans isn't very pronounced (compared to many other animals). We know that cis men have the capability to lactate (although it is very rare), so it isn't like the body needs to grow the entire system from scratch, and cis women typically only lactate when they have had certain hormones in their system due to having been pregnant. If a trans woman has enough hormones that she produces breast milk, then why would one assume it would be an issue?
    The notion that it is somehow amazing reminds me of the time of yore when men were used to watching male football but astounded to discover that women could also use their legs and feet to kick a ball and score goals.
    As any fule kno, only women have uteruses (uteri?) which will fall out if they travel at more than 20mph, so the case for men-only trains is clear.
    Come to think of it, breast cancer is a known risk for men - not that common (whether it's the amount of tissue or the hormonal situation or both I dunno), but it is not trivial.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    148grss said:

    Taz said:

    An NHS trust has said that breast milk produced by trans women who were assigned male at birth is as good for babies as that produced by a mother who has given birth

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/trans-womens-milk-as-good-as-breast-milk-says-nhs-trust/

    🤔

    Why wouldn't it be? Sexual dimorphism in humans isn't very pronounced (compared to many other animals). We know that cis men have the capability to lactate (although it is very rare), so it isn't like the body needs to grow the entire system from scratch, and cis women typically only lactate when they have had certain hormones in their system due to having been pregnant. If a trans woman has enough hormones that she produces breast milk, then why would one assume it would be an issue?
    The notion that it is somehow amazing reminds me of the time of yore when men were used to watching male football but astounded to discover that women could also use their legs and feet to kick a ball and score goals.
    As any fule kno, only women have uteruses (uteri?) which will fall out if they travel at more than 20mph, so the case for men-only trains is clear.
    Come to think of it, breast cancer is a known risk for men - not that common (whether it's the amount of tissue or the hormonal situation or both I dunno), but it is not trivial.
    Brother of a friend of mine had breast cancer. Not trivial at all.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,144
    Have we discussed this latest episode of "LLM are bullshit machines, not AI"?

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/02/air-canada-must-honor-refund-policy-invented-by-airlines-chatbot/
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,844
    The International Monetary Fund predicts strong growth for Russia's economy this year, despite sanctions imposed for the invasion of Ukraine. European nations trail well behind Russia in the IMF forecast.

    PBers who claimed their economy would collapse in days when the West imposed sanctions, please explain.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,316
    A
    TOPPING said:

    148grss said:

    Labour MP Damien Egan offered extra security

    The newly elected Member of Parliament for Kingswood, Damien Egan, has been offered enhanced security protection because protesters have made threats against him and his Israeli husband.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-mp-damien-egan-offered-extra-security-sunl688c

    That didn't take long.

    Whilst I think any threats of violence are unacceptable - I also think it is completely fine to protest someone who was a soldier in another army (or, indeed, our army) based on the acts of that army / state. If anything I think more people should be protesting their MPs at their surgeries or houses for their beliefs and votes - they are supposed to represent us and when they don't, peaceful protest is a pretty reasonable response. This being the husband of an MP is a bit of a grey area - the MP is the public figure here, not his husband - but in principle, again, I'm not against it.

    This kind of feels like SCOTUS post Dobbs when people turned up to protest at their houses and they started getting their knickers in a twist. Peaceful protesters (and I do want to highlight peaceful here before people claim I am defending death threats or whatever) protesting your actions when you have significant power over others is fair.
    How about laying siege to Jacob Rees-Mogg's children. All good?
    What about “peaceful protests” outside abortion clinics?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,554
    In disturbing but unsurprising news spring has already sprung in South East London. Daffs out in our front garden, the Magnolia tree's just started flowering, our early clematis is already in bloom and the road is full of blossoming cherry trees.

    February so far is 4.6C above average on the Central England Temperature and likely to go higher before the chill winds fortunately bring it down again from the end of this week onwards, heralding a cold March (and long may that continue as I'm going skiing over Easter).

    The CET daily mean temperature on the 15th was 13.7C, far and away the highest 24 hour mean ever recorded in February as well as being the highest on record for any winter month, and a level we didn't reach last year until May.
This discussion has been closed.